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Message no. 1
From: ATREIDE - Aymeric RICHARD <arichard@****.IRESTE.FR>
Subject: Re: FAB...
Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 18:12:20 +0100
From
> > Rick
and
> Mark

they wrote :

> > Sure; bacteria are living beings, aren't they? But you have to be
> > able to see them to cast spells on them. Which brings up another
> > question; I cast fireball at a sec guard in a hallway. Do I also kill
> > all of the bacteria/fungus/etc. in the hallway, thus sterilizing it?
> > Or do the bacteria survive because they're too small for me to see?
Just read the sterilize spell. You don't need to synchronize any astral
body (as you are supposed to do).
Is it an error in the system, a new exception to the rules or do I remember
wrong (greatly possible... don't have THE GRIMOIRE with me).

> They would survive (you cannot see them). Sterilize spells exist to
> solve this problem. They only kill things small enough to be
> invisible, and hence unafected by regular magic.
I had the same idea... :-)

> You need to get at it on the physical, though manifest a spirit in
> the thing and drop a fireball should work. You cannot see the things
> so the spell does not get them directly but you will fry what is
> holding the bacteria in position and fireball has elemental affects,
> those should carbonise the bacteria nicely.
Here are 2 possibilities :
1) You consider that FAB are unbalancing the game. Because mages are blocked
and cannot do anything against FAB and such living walls.
2) Or you like it.

If 1) then (Im a programmer :-)
a solution to balance FAB stuff is to design specific spells to affect
these nasty things as Sterilize spell is specific (no aura target).
I advise a high drain... *evil GM grin*
else
explain us what's cool in it ? :-)
endif

(I don't know what is that programming language ;-)

--
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
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| Aymeric RICHARD - Atreide on IRC | C+(++) UL+ P?>+ L+>++ N+ E- W M-- |
| E-Mail : arichard@****.ireste.fr | Y(+) t+ R+(++) G' !tv b++ D+ u**- |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Message no. 2
From: Joseph Pettit <jpettit@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: FAB
Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 11:08:54 -0700
I don't want to get into this argument about FAB squishing astrally
projecting mages but I will through a little ammo out there for whoever
wants to use it.

1. One of the books (SRII or Grimoire) mentions that the elements have
auras, water, air, fire, earth, but water air and fire are not dense
enough to stop a mage.

2. Ignore the FAB club or bullet, ask yourself Can I swing my arm and
hit an astrally projecting mage?

3. Wasn't there some rule about needing a physical vs. physical, astral
vs. astral connection?

4. Given the amount of 'life' floating around in the air, it comes down
to two things: either projection doesn't work or FAB doesn't work.
Message no. 3
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: FAB
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 09:31:18 +0930
Joseph Pettit wrote:
>
> I don't want to get into this argument about FAB squishing astrally
> projecting mages but I will through a little ammo out there for whoever
> wants to use it.
>
> 1. One of the books (SRII or Grimoire) mentions that the elements have
> auras, water, air, fire, earth, but water air and fire are not dense
> enough to stop a mage.

Yep... Also, you can go through sterile earth.

> 2. Ignore the FAB club or bullet, ask yourself Can I swing my arm and
> hit an astrally projecting mage?

Yes, you can. Want to know what happens? You push the mage out of the way,
with no damage occuring to the mage.

> 3. Wasn't there some rule about needing a physical vs. physical, astral
> vs. astral connection?

Sort of...

> 4. Given the amount of 'life' floating around in the air, it comes down
> to two things: either projection doesn't work or FAB doesn't work.

Nyet, as the Russians say. FASA has stated that FAB works under different
rules...

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 4
From: Malaclypse the Younger <shadow@******.NET>
Subject: FAB
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 14:23:26 -0500
Having only recently re-subscribed to the list, I seem to have missed
a signifigant topic - FAB. What is it? Where is the information on
it to be found? Anyway. Greetings all.

Malaclypse the Younger
shadow@******.net
Message no. 5
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: FAB
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 13:08:38 -0700
>Malaclypse the Younger writes:
>Having only recently re-subscribed to the list, I seem to have missed
>a signifigant topic - FAB. What is it? Where is the information on
>it to be found? Anyway. Greetings all.

FAB = "FAt Bacteria"

a new substance listed in the new Corp. Security Book
recently released.

- the general gist or FAB is that it give off the presence
of astrally projecting individuals/creatures (in astral).
There are also descriptions of FAB nets/netguns that
can be used to trap astrally projecting individuals.

The discussion is on how FAB works and it's restrictions,
it's applications and just about anything else...

Thanks
Gary.
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: FAB
Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 09:53:37 +0200
>Having only recently re-subscribed to the list, I seem to have missed
>a signifigant topic - FAB. What is it? Where is the information on
>it to be found? Anyway. Greetings all.

Fat Astral Bacteria or something like that. It's in the Corporate Security
Handbook, and requires some heavy GM tinkering to use, apparently (I haven't
use it myself, but have sort of read through the rules/guidelines for its use).


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What do I do next?
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: FAB
Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 09:53:48 +0200
>a new substance listed in the new Corp. Security Book
>recently released.

BTW, is the Aztlan book out yet? I received this playtest adventure from
Adventures Unlimited, and it refers to the Aztlan book, giving page numbers
etc., but has anyone on this list seen it yet?


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What do I do next?
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 8
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: FAB
Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 12:12:26 BST
Gurth Asked :-

> BTW, is the Aztlan book out yet? I received this playtest adventure from
> Adventures Unlimited, and it refers to the Aztlan book, giving page numbers
> etc., but has anyone on this list seen it yet?

I haven't seen it yet, but they also refer to an adventure by Nigel D Findley,
and he was writing it (or had written it), he probably gave them some inside
data before he died. Maybe it's out on AOL for play-testing (although it's
a source book, so there's no much to test).

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 9
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: FAB
Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 12:20:06 BST
Hi Bob (and lynch too, seeing as this is a re-post), long time no see.

What I thought they said happened when you got forced into a FAB floor
by an FAB net was Mathesis (or something), hence I trundled along to
the dictionary and found out it (seemingly) had no connection to the
way in which those folks at FASA used it. Ho-hum.

I figure the effects are the same as the crocodile guy in Eye Witness,
you know, you go totally Gonzo Bjork, and never truely recover.

I have NPC's built around this idea already. One who had a bad experience
with an FAB wall, and now no longer goes outside, living in a sealed
environment, with as little bacteria as possible in it. He never, ever
percieves, let alone projects.



Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 10
From: Joseph Pettit <jpettit@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: FAB
Date: Sat, 20 May 1995 00:32:51 -0700
OK here's a question for somebody out there with a Corp Sec handbook:
Is FAB a naturally occuring bacteria or did some scientist develope it?
I don't believe FAB is Natural, alive maybe, but not natural. And if
it is man-made, the grimoire does state you can move through it
astrally.

Maybe this whole FAB thing is just Corporate propaganda to scare off
runners. :)
Message no. 11
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: FAB
Date: Sat, 20 May 1995 03:41:44 -0400
On Sat, 20 May 1995, Joseph Pettit wrote:

> OK here's a question for somebody out there with a Corp Sec handbook:
> Is FAB a naturally occuring bacteria or did some scientist develope it?
> I don't believe FAB is Natural, alive maybe, but not natural. And if
> it is man-made, the grimoire does state you can move through it
> astrally.

Uhhh...No. You can move through man-made materials, but
regardless of whether they were genetically engineered or not, you can't
move through living things.

> Maybe this whole FAB thing is just Corporate propaganda to scare off
> runners. :)

That's pretty much what this whole debate is about: whether or
not FAB actually works and how.

Marc
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: FAB
Date: Sat, 20 May 1995 10:32:54 +0200
>I have NPC's built around this idea already. One who had a bad experience
>with an FAB wall, and now no longer goes outside, living in a sealed
>environment, with as little bacteria as possible in it.

Call him Howard Hughes and see if the players find out what he's afraid of :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I found the secret to Jungle, BTW: Don't listen to it :) --Ray Cokes
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 13
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: FAB
Date: Sat, 20 May 1995 21:37:12 +0930
Joseph Pettit wrote:
>
> OK here's a question for somebody out there with a Corp Sec handbook:
> Is FAB a naturally occuring bacteria or did some scientist develope it?
> I don't believe FAB is Natural, alive maybe, but not natural. And if
> it is man-made, the grimoire does state you can move through it
> astrally.

*sigh* Man-made objects: yes, you can move through. Genengineered objects
aren't, strictly speaking, man-made. More like man altered.

No, it is not a naturally occuring bacteria. It's a genetically engineered
organism, developed by BacteriTech.

Finally, the Corp Security book is a more recent publication, so it would
supersede anything that conflicted with it in any older book (read, The
Grimoire).

> Maybe this whole FAB thing is just Corporate propaganda to scare off
> runners. :)

If you're the GM, you can play it that way, if you want...

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: FAB
Date: Sun, 21 May 1995 09:06:56 +0200
>OK here's a question for somebody out there with a Corp Sec handbook:
>Is FAB a naturally occuring bacteria or did some scientist develope it?
>I don't believe FAB is Natural, alive maybe, but not natural. And if
>it is man-made, the grimoire does state you can move through it
>astrally.

It's a gengineered bacterium, so it's partly man-made and partly natural.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I found the secret to Jungle, BTW: Don't listen to it :) --Ray Cokes
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 15
From: Neal Brown <NealBrown@***.COM>
Subject: Re: FAB
Date: Sun, 21 May 1995 03:12:16 -0400
I've talked to a few GMs here on AOL and we don't like this stuff. As
stated, the point seems to be that astral beings (and mages) can't move
through it no matter where it is. I don't like the idea of flooding an area
with the airborne stuff and trapping everyone inside. Previous to the
CorpSec, I used solid, immobile walls of bacteria to restrict astral
movement. That seems pretty straightforward. As for FAT, it's really a GM
call. Some stuff, esp. the netgun, seems very improbable.

Neal
Message no. 16
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: FAB
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 22:17:06 -0700
Faux Pas wrote:
> Go ahead and rethink this. FAB does work according to the rules in the SR2
> black book and in the Grimoire. If anyone can find anything that says
> "astral beings cannot influence anything on the physical plane", then FAB
> won't work.
>
> Didn't find it, did you?
> Actually what I found was FAB doesn't work all that well out of the lab..And
the way it works is much different than the way it gets represented..And for
the FAB rules check the Corp Sec book...
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 17
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject: Re: FAB
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 02:04:44 -0500
At 10:17 PM 9/5/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Faux Pas wrote:
>> Go ahead and rethink this. FAB does work according to the rules in the SR2
>> black book and in the Grimoire. If anyone can find anything that says
>> "astral beings cannot influence anything on the physical plane", then
FAB
>> won't work.
>>
>> Didn't find it, did you?

> Actually what I found was FAB doesn't work all that well out of the lab..And
>the way it works is much different than the way it gets represented..And for
>the FAB rules check the Corp Sec book...

I did. Lengthy explanation and response under the Astral/Physical Debate
topic. I still haven't come across any rules that FAB conflicts.

Can someone please find and post one rule that FAB conflicts with or
contradicts? But it has to be an actual rule. Just one rule. That's all
I'm asking.

So far all I've heard is that someone else has a different definition for
"direct" and "indirect". The definitions I'm using for
"indirect",
"direct", and "effect" are from the Webster's II New Riverside
University
Dictionary. Indirect - not directly planned for: secondary. Direct - with
nothing intervening: immediate. Effect - something brought about by agent
or cause: result.

With the FABnet covering the astral being example. The direct effect is the
being's aura doesn't intersect the net's aura. The indirect effect of the
net's aura being held in place is the physical component of the net appears
to hang in the air. The astral being doesn't come into contact with the
actual physical net. There is no direct effect on the net from the being.
There is a direct effect on the net's aura.

-Thomas Deeny
the Cartoonist at large is on the web at www2.cy-net.net/~fauxpas

"We were told to turn it down, stuff got broken, and everyone got naked. It
was a successful party."
-Marcus "DoubleDaves will have to name one of their stores after me" Drew.
Message no. 18
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: FAB
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 96 15:28:30 +1100
Thomas Deeny writes:
>With the FABnet covering the astral being example. The direct effect is the
>being's aura doesn't intersect the net's aura. The indirect effect of the
>net's aura being held in place is the physical component of the net appears
>to hang in the air. The astral being doesn't come into contact with the
>actual physical net. There is no direct effect on the net from the being.
>There is a direct effect on the net's aura.

Read Magister's comments in CS. Auras do interact and can repel each
other, but this force is far weaker than the gravitational attraction of
the net. If a net is dropped onto an astral being, the astral being is
forced out of the way in the opposite direction (the floor). If it can't
go through the floor for some reason (and FAB isn't the only possibility,
here.. it could be living earth), the astral being will be forced out of
a side. If THAT isn't possible (tricky, but doable), then the net
collapses to the ground, the auras undergo _forced_ intersaction,
metathesis, whatever that is, occurs, and the mage starts to endure pain
like you can not believe. And it can't even leave, astrally, as it hasn't
yet gone THROUGH the net. Only into it. (Hmmm... you may let them duck
away to the metaplanes. GM call)

If the aura interaction was as strong as all that, Thomas, then astral
beings would be able to catch falling people. From there, one proceeds
logically to astral beings being able to punch falling people. And from
THERE, one proceeds logically to astral beings being able to punch
non-falling people.

--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 19
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject: Re: FAB
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 12:44:15 -0500
At 03:28 PM 9/7/96 +1100, Robert wrote:
>Thomas Deeny writes:
[snip my stuff regarding aural interaction]

>Read Magister's comments in CS.

I have, and, like FASA says, we cannot take this information to be 100%
true. If this info was in the GM Information/Rules section, the info would
be 100% true for FASA's game system.

[snip bit about forced integration]

>If the aura interaction was as strong as all that, Thomas, then astral
>beings would be able to catch falling people. From there, one proceeds
>logically to astral beings being able to punch falling people. And from
>THERE, one proceeds logically to astral beings being able to punch
>non-falling people.

I still haven't seen any rule that mentions this forced integration.

To counter your falling body situation, let's look at the FAB Net on the
astral mage example [not again!] but instead of having the mage motionless
on the ground, say he's a few inches above the ground. I'd say that the net
is attracted by gravity (physical force) and is pulled by gravity towards
the Earth. The FAB's aura comes into contact with the mage's aura (astral).
Because of the attraction of gravity on the net, the net continues to
descend (the aura of the FAB descends, dragging the mage's aura with it).
When the mage's aura comes into contact with the Earth, the descent stops.

Taking this example and applying it to the falling body scenario, the astral
being is flying through a city when a mundane stockbroker jumps to his
death. The aura of the mundane hits the astral being and the being is
knocked down, falling towards the Earth. (Because the physical force of
gravity is stonger than the astral force generated by flying). During the
fall, the astral being should tumble out of the way to stay at altitude, or
the astral being would be pulled down by the descending aura of the jumper
(which is tied to the physical body of the jumper) and collide with the
Earth (non-magical) - when the being collides with the Earth, he will take
no damage. What happens to the jumper? If the astral being tumbles out of
the way, the jumper falls, hits the physical Earth, and takes damage. If
the astral being stays with the jumper, the sudden stop a few feet from the
Earth's surface will do the same amount of damage to him as actually hitting
the Earth.

It's the whole "some physical forces are stronger than astral forces" theory.

-Thomas Deeny
the Cartoonist at large is on the web at www2.cy-net.net/~fauxpas

"We were told to turn it down, stuff got broken, and everyone got naked. It
was a successful party."
-Marcus "DoubleDaves will have to name one of their stores after me" Drew.
Message no. 20
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: FAB
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 96 21:50:38 +1100
>I still haven't seen any rule that mentions this forced integration.

There is no mention of the situation in the rules (an oversight on FASA's
part, unfortunately). In the shadowtalk on FAB in the catalog section,
Magister mentions it, with no opposing commentry

>To counter your falling body situation, let's look at the FAB Net on the
>astral mage example [not again!] but instead of having the mage motionless
>on the ground, say he's a few inches above the ground. I'd say that the net
>is attracted by gravity (physical force) and is pulled by gravity towards
>the Earth. The FAB's aura comes into contact with the mage's aura (astral).
>Because of the attraction of gravity on the net, the net continues to
>descend (the aura of the FAB descends, dragging the mage's aura with it).
>When the mage's aura comes into contact with the Earth, the descent stops.

Nope... that's when the mage's aura starts to undergo forced
intersection. The descent doesn't stop until the net hits the ground. The
catch here is that the net has to hit more or less vertically, I think,
or the mage will slid out.

>Taking this example and applying it to the falling body scenario, the astral
>being is flying through a city when a mundane stockbroker jumps to his
>death. The aura of the mundane hits the astral being and the being is
>knocked down, falling towards the Earth. (Because the physical force of
>gravity is stonger than the astral force generated by flying).
Yep.

> During the
>fall, the astral being should tumble out of the way to stay at altitude, or
>the astral being would be pulled down by the descending aura of the jumper
>(which is tied to the physical body of the jumper) and collide with the
>Earth (non-magical) - when the being collides with the Earth, he will take
>no damage.

Um... nope. The mage gets hit. IF the force is perfectly aligned with the
direction of travel of the jumper, the mage will get pushed down in
front, then (when he hits the ground), the mage will slide out from
underneath. In the more likely case of the "impact" being slightly off
center, the mage will be pushed aside a bit, and down. In the even more
likely case of the direction of the jumper's travel changing slightly, as
the JUMPER tumbles, the mage will eventually slide out.

> What happens to the jumper? If the astral being tumbles out of
>the way, the jumper falls, hits the physical Earth, and takes damage. If
>the astral being stays with the jumper, the sudden stop a few feet from the
>Earth's surface will do the same amount of damage to him as actually hitting
>the Earth.

*sigh* THE JUMPER WOUILD NOT STOP!!!! Can't you get that through your
head? The jumper would go THROUGH the mage, forcing intersection,
assuming the mage didn't slide away. The astral body does NOT have the
ability to hold up the physical body.

Any deviation from the normal fall of the jumper would perforce be
minimal. The force generated by the interaction of auras is miniscule,
but it would be there.

>It's the whole "some physical forces are stronger than astral forces"
theory.

Physical forces vary in strength as it is. It's not the AMOUNT of
force... it's the nature of the force. An example: the strongest
naturally occuring force we know is the electo-strong force, which binds
atoms together. This force is used for atomic bombs, etal. The WEAKEST
is... gravity. 1 Newton of force is 1 Newton of force, but an atom is
held together by a lot more force than it generates in gravity. All I'm
saying is that while astral forces are there, they are produced in much
lower quantities by the interaction of auras than the gravitational
forces produced by the interaction of masses.



--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 21
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject: Re: FAB
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:22:43 -0500
At 09:50 PM 9/8/96 +1100, you wrote:
>>I still haven't seen any rule that mentions this forced integration.
>
>There is no mention of the situation in the rules (an oversight on FASA's
>part, unfortunately). In the shadowtalk on FAB in the catalog section,
>Magister mentions it, with no opposing commentry

And I've explained that you cannot take the sidebar comments as actual
rules. Find a rule that supports the forced integration theory.

Oh, and let's talk about Magister's comments on page 84, shall we? He
contradicts himself and nobody catches! "One living spirit attempts to pass
through another." This says that one aura can pass through another aura.
Then he goes and says "A mundane is not present in astral space, so there's
nothing for a spirit to pass through." The mundane has an aura in astral
space, and here Magister says that an aura can't pass through another aura.

>> What happens to the jumper? If the astral being tumbles out of
>>the way, the jumper falls, hits the physical Earth, and takes damage. If
>>the astral being stays with the jumper, the sudden stop a few feet from the
>>Earth's surface will do the same amount of damage to him as actually hitting
>>the Earth.
>
>*sigh* THE JUMPER WOUILD NOT STOP!!!! Can't you get that through your
>head? The jumper would go THROUGH the mage, forcing intersection,
>assuming the mage didn't slide away. The astral body does NOT have the
>ability to hold up the physical body.

::getting pissed off mood on::

Fine, then quote me a fuckin' rule! Can't you do that? You can't find one
to support forced intersection of auras, can you? Yet I can find a rule
that says forced integration can't happen. Shall I quote it again?
Obviously I need to: "It is not possible to pass through things that are
alive, no matter at what level, in astral space." If one aura cannot pass
through another aura, how can the jumper's physical body continue through
the astral mage?

::getting pissed off mood off::

Okay, the sidebar and in-text postings on Shadowland and the text in the
sourcebooks aren't rules. It's called a "sourcebook" for a reason, it's a
source for ideas. In the CorpSec book, FASA tells the reader that
"individual gamemasters are the final judges of the accuracy of this [the
core text] information." Similar quotes can be found in the introductions
of other Shadowrun Sourcebooks. But for actual game rules, they are in the
GM Information or Rules sections of the various sourcebooks.

Robert, what you are basing your arguement on is supported by this in-game
world text that FASA even says may be an exaggeration, a lie, a
misunderstanding. What I am basing my arguement on is found on page 145 of
the Shadowrun Second Edition rulebook. You or someone else posted something
a day ago saying that even if something isn't mentioned in the rules, that
doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That's true, but the facts I'm using in my
arguement is supported by rules that have been written down in the Shadowrun
2nd Edition main book.

-Thomas Deeny
the Cartoonist at large is on the web at www2.cy-net.net/~fauxpas

"We were told to turn it down, stuff got broken, and everyone got naked. It
was a successful party."
-Marcus "DoubleDaves will have to name one of their stores after me" Drew.
Message no. 22
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: FAB
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 17:06:01 +1100
>>There is no mention of the situation in the rules (an oversight on FASA's
>>part, unfortunately). In the shadowtalk on FAB in the catalog section,
>>Magister mentions it, with no opposing commentry
>
>And I've explained that you cannot take the sidebar comments as actual
>rules. Find a rule that supports the forced integration theory.

Find a rule which says the net floats in the air when it hits the mage's
aura, will you? Find a rule that says FAB is astral in nature. Like I
said, there is NO MENTION ANYWHERE in the rules about what happens.

>Oh, and let's talk about Magister's comments on page 84, shall we? He
>contradicts himself and nobody catches! "One living spirit attempts to pass
>through another." This says that one aura can pass through another aura.
>Then he goes and says "A mundane is not present in astral space, so there's
>nothing for a spirit to pass through." The mundane has an aura in astral
>space, and here Magister says that an aura can't pass through another aura.

Yep... an aura can't pass through another aura BY ITSELF. The astral mage
CAN NOT pass through the mundane. If it tries it is deflected, as the
next sentence (which you convienently left out) mentions. If the mundane
passes through the mage, the mage is deflected. ONLY IF THE MAGE CANNOT
BE DEFLECTED, does the forced intergration takes place. Why? Because the
force preventing the two auras from intergrating does not come near
equaling the force forcing the auras together. And only the astral mage
would be hurt, anyway, as can be seen by the handshaking example.

>>*sigh* THE JUMPER WOUILD NOT STOP!!!! Can't you get that through your
>>head? The jumper would go THROUGH the mage, forcing intersection,
>>assuming the mage didn't slide away. The astral body does NOT have the
>>ability to hold up the physical body.
>
>::getting pissed off mood on::
>
>Fine, then quote me a fuckin' rule! Can't you do that? You can't find one
>to support forced intersection of auras, can you? Yet I can find a rule
>that says forced integration can't happen. Shall I quote it again?
>Obviously I need to: "It is not possible to pass through things that are
>alive, no matter at what level, in astral space." If one aura cannot pass
>through another aura, how can the jumper's physical body continue through
>the astral mage?
>
>::getting pissed off mood off::

I'll leave mine on. How can the jumper's body pass through the mage? It
can't, of course. But the jumper DOES NOT stay in the air. The MAGE gets
forced aside. IF AND ONLY IF the mage can not get pushed aside, then the
jumper is FORCED through the mage, and the mage gets seriously screwed.

>Okay, the sidebar and in-text postings on Shadowland and the text in the
>sourcebooks aren't rules. It's called a "sourcebook" for a reason, it's a
>source for ideas. In the CorpSec book, FASA tells the reader that
>"individual gamemasters are the final judges of the accuracy of this [the
>core text] information." Similar quotes can be found in the introductions
>of other Shadowrun Sourcebooks. But for actual game rules, they are in the
>GM Information or Rules sections of the various sourcebooks.

Yep, I'm turning to the sourcebooks because NOWHERE does the rule
mentions what happens in this case.

>Robert, what you are basing your arguement on is supported by this in-game
>world text that FASA even says may be an exaggeration, a lie, a
>misunderstanding. What I am basing my arguement on is found on page 145 of
>the Shadowrun Second Edition rulebook. You or someone else posted something
>a day ago saying that even if something isn't mentioned in the rules, that
>doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That's true, but the facts I'm using in my
>arguement is supported by rules that have been written down in the Shadowrun
>2nd Edition main book.

Fine, find me a rule ANYWHERE that says that if a person falls onto an
astrally projecting mage, then the astral mage breaks the fall of the
person. And when you can't, face up to the inconsitencies in your
argument.

Yes, I'm falling back on the description of the activites. It's what _I_
decided to do to cover an inadequacy in the existing rules, and I only
ever do it when I can not get a framework for a decision within the rules.




--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 23
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: FAB?
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:41:01 -0700
Peter David Boddy wrote:
|
| Could someone please explain something to me, as I check usually check my
| mail at two am in the morning? What the hell is FAB?

Fat Bacteria. It's in the Corporate Security book (the
full name escapes me at the moment). It supposedly slows
down the movement of astrally active beings.

The whole FAB debate is about the answer to the question,
"What happens if an astral being gets caught between the
aura's of two living, physical, objects (specifically a FAB
filled net, and the ground)?" Is the net supported and
does it hang in mid-air? Does the net fall to the ground,
snuffing the astral being out of existance? Does the
astral being destroy the net's aura? Does the astral being
go shooting out the side like a tiddly-wink?

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 24
From: Peter David Boddy <pdboddy@****.CARLETON.CA>
Subject: Re: FAB?
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 16:51:33 EST
David Buehrer writes:
> Fat Bacteria. It's in the Corporate Security book (the
> full name escapes me at the moment). It supposedly slows
> down the movement of astrally active beings.
>
> The whole FAB debate is about the answer to the question,
> "What happens if an astral being gets caught between the
> aura's of two living, physical, objects (specifically a FAB
> filled net, and the ground)?" Is the net supported and
> does it hang in mid-air? Does the net fall to the ground,
> snuffing the astral being out of existance? Does the
> astral being destroy the net's aura? Does the astral being
> go shooting out the side like a tiddly-wink?

Ahhh, now I see. Was a solution reached? Would adding my thoughts just
fan flames people don't want to see again?

Pete

Pete aka Spitfire
Test your might...
at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/8920/index.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdboddy@****.carleton.ca
Email address: bx955@*******.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 25
From: "Faux Pas (Thomas)" <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: FAB?
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 16:21:27 -0600
On 04:51 PM 3/3/97 EST, Peter David Boddy screamed at the world:
>> The whole FAB debate is about the answer to the question,
>> "What happens if an astral being gets caught between the
>> aura's of two living, physical, objects (specifically a FAB
>> filled net, and the ground)?"
>
>Ahhh, now I see. Was a solution reached? Would adding my thoughts just
>fan flames people don't want to see again?

FASAMike answered the question back in the summer. I think David or
Granite has a copy of what the final ruling was (I've got it on my computer
at home). We managed to hurt Mike's head. My head still hurts from the
FAB debate.


-Thomas Deeny
telltale.hart.org

Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit
materiari?
Message no. 26
From: Shane Courtrille <hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: FAB?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:22:12 +0000
> FASAMike answered the question back in the summer. I think David or
> Granite has a copy of what the final ruling was (I've got it on my computer
> at home). We managed to hurt Mike's head. My head still hurts from the
> FAB debate.
>
>
> -Thomas Deeny
> telltale.hart.org

I wouldn't mind seeing his ruling.. if it wouldn't be to much
trouble? :)
Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca
Message no. 27
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: FAB?
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 00:26:30 +0000
|Ahhh, now I see. Was a solution reached?

I think I was fortunate enough to miss most of that over the summer while I
was out fruit picking.....

|Would adding my thoughts just
|fan flames people don't want to see again?

Probably....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 28
From: Shawn Baumgartner <Breakdown@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: FAB?
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 02:51:31 -0500
GOOD GOD, DON'T OPEN THIS THREAD!!! Ahem, sorry. I wasn't on the list
during the last war... er, discussion, but I'm sure I can imagine it.

Shawn
Trying to protect his e-mailer from cerebral hemmorhage.

-----------------------------------------------------
Oh No!
Another damn page!
http://www.toptown.com/CENTRALPARK/DEOSYNE/
Ah what the hell; better than gardening!
Message no. 29
From: Ashelock <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: FAB?
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 04:00:33 -0005
On 31 Jan 01 at 17:22, Shane Courtrille wrote:

> > FASAMike answered the question back in the summer. I think David or
> > Granite has a copy of what the final ruling was (I've got it on my
> > computer at home). We managed to hurt Mike's head. My head still
> > hurts from the FAB debate.
> >
> >
> > -Thomas Deeny
> > telltale.hart.org
>
> I wouldn't mind seeing his ruling.. if it wouldn't be to much
> trouble? :)
> Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca

Ditto for me, I seemed to have missed that. Although I never had much
problem with it. I just always thought of it like being in space. You
don't have any weight just mass and inertia. Whatever has the most mass
and inertia wins. In the case of the FAB net, it does have weight since
it's connected to the physical. However, since the astral mage can't push
through the living ground, it be treated as normal entanglement with a
net. If the mage was on the 3rd floor however, the net would simply push
the mage through to the 2nd floor. Never seemed that complicated to me.
--

Ashelock
mailto:woneal@*******.net

"They say it's a brave new world we're building. I say they're right,
and we'll all have to be pretty brave to live in it."
Message no. 30
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: FAB
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 22:56:59 -0700
This is a repost the FAB results because Shane Courtrille asked for it...
Don't quit reading until you get to the end..Then make any
comments...I have included ALL of the back and forth posts between
those of us who posted the question to DL Mike..And his
replies..-Including- the incorrect post..So don't quit until you get
to the end or your brain will explode... ;P

Robert Blackberg III wrote:
>
> Could one of you kind souls forward FASA Mike's answer to the FAB
> question (with his follow-up correction) to me. I was a fool, and
> deleted the mail before printing out the response. Thanx in
> advance.
>
> Robert

The following is what you asked for and more..I have included the
original incorrect reply as well as some further finetuning I
discussed with FASAMike...

THE ORIGINAL REPLY
Thomas, Granite and David -

I answered a set of questions which I beleive we're sent on to Thomas
regarding FAB. I think they should answer many of your questions
(although nearly everything is open to interpretation). I've included
the answers here again and feel free to post them in the mailing list.

Here goes...(oh yeah and my head still hurts.....)

Thomas -

You have actively hurt my head...

>What happens when a motionless astral being standing on the Earth has
>a non-magical living physical object (with an aura) placed on top of
>him?

First off, What exactly do you mean by "aura" - like a plant or a
magical ashtray. Secondly, the stronger astral enetity will push the
weaker out of the way. An astral mage, can move "living plants" out of
the way. Much like the physical world no two items can share the same
place so in the astral the larger, bigger, or more powerful will
displace a smaller one.

>Would the object's physical component be affected by gravity and pass
>through the astral being?

For lack of any better image...bounce off would be more appropriate.

>Would the aura of the astral being interact with the aura of the
>object and the object appear to float in the physical plane?

Not unless the being in the astral plane wanted it to. Normally it
would just bounce off, if it could.

>Would the object's aura push the astral being out of the way?

No actually it's probably more the other way. It's not like
postive/negitive charged items. The bigger will move the smaller.

>Would swinging a club filled with FAB do any damage to a purely
>astral being?

Possibly...There are no rules for damage from one astral entity pushed
into another. Normally FAB is not dense enough to do damage. It's
point is to slow an entitly down force them to deal with something in
the astral space, that prohibits their abbility to manuever. What the
club filled with FAB would do is constantly push the entity in astral.
Since all that is reallin coming at him or her is a club shapped
groupin a FAB. To be honest I wouldn't think it's as effective as
other FAB uses.

>Could an astral being, covered by a FAB-Net, attempt to untangle the
>net?

Yes

>Is FAB astrally active?

Yes

>Is FAB dual-natured?

Yes

>Is FAB mundane?

No

>And can we get an answer on Dybbuk's question in CorpSec (p 40): "If
>somebody astral can't move or pass through something with physical
>mass, how can an astral being travel through air filled with any
>bacteria?"

It's a size factor...think of it as swimming. If FAB is pumped into a
room. What it does is slow a character down to the point where they
can be trapped. Think of it as a murky samp for an astral being.

Boy I hope all these help...even more, I hope they make sense.

Mike Mulvihill
Shadowrun Line Developer
FASA
See our web page at www.fasa.com

THE CORRECTED REPLY
Gentelmen - I screwed up royally....

Here are the correct answers.

>Could an astral being, covered by a FAB-Net, attempt to untangle the
>net?

No, an astral being cannot interact with the physical. It can try and
move it out of the way but it can't unravel it. Now after much heated
debate in the Dev. office (mainly between myself and Lou Prosperi the
Earthdawn Developer) an interesting idea came up. If a physical object
with a stronger astral force pushes a living entity without movement
around - let's call it a fern - does the fern actually move in the
physical. (You know leaves blowing back and forth etc.) That is never
actually discussed in SR. The quick answer would be no. What goes for
the PC must metaphyscially work for everything. The physcial body of a
mage does not effect it's astral self, so that must be maintained over
all living creatures. Who knew that Philosphy Degree I have would
actually be useful.

>Is FAB astrally active?

NO!!! This is the correct answer...

>Is FAB dual-natured?

NO!!! This is the correct answer...again

>Is FAB mundane?

Yes...it must be...it has to be...or everything I believe in will
collapse...

OK that may be a bit too strong but hopefully this will make more
sense.

Mike Mulvihill
Shadowrun Line Developer
FASA
See our web page at www.fasa.com

FURTHER MESSAGES AND CLARIFICATIONS
Well, I was trying to mentally digest what FASAMike had sent us [the
corrected version] and so I sent him this one more message..included
is his reply..

GRANITE wrote:
>
> First I would like to say thank you for your reply and for the
> correction to your original reply :) I was going to go into a big
> deal about flying enchanted or living blades and such but your
> corrections stopped that rant before it got off of the
> ground...However...
>
> FASAMike@***.com wrote:
> >>Could an astral being, covered by a FAB-Net, attempt to untangle
> >>the net?
>
> >No, an astral being cannot interact with the physical. It can try
> >and move it out of the way but it can't unravel it. Now after much
> >heated debate in the Dev. office (mainly between myself and Lou
> >Prosperi the Earthdawn Developer) an interesting idea came up. If a
> >physical object with a stronger astral force pushes a living entity
> >without movement around - let's call it a fern - does the fern
> >actually move in the physical. (You know leaves blowing back and
> >forth etc.) That is never actually discussed in SR. The quick
> >answer would be no. What goes for the PC must metaphyscially work
> >for everything. The physcial body of a mage does not effect it's
> >astral self, so that must be maintained over all living creatures.
> >Who knew that Philosphy Degree I have would actually be useful.
>
> I believe the true question was: can the astral entity atempt to
> become unentangled with the net and escape..The answer is in the
> rules of the CorpSec book on Pg 103..Yes with modifiers unless a
> VERY specific situation occurs..But if I am understanding your
> answer an auras are more..elastic [for want of a better word]..and
> it is actually the auras of the FAB in the net that gets *stretched*
> around the astral Mage [or whatever] while the physical compenent
> actually comes to rest flat on the ground, showing no signs of the
> astral being entangled in the auras contained within the net..This
> actually make sense..Or at least more so than the way it was being
> interpreted..And it keep astral entities from picking up physical
> objects and becoming all powerful poltergeists and pretty much
> rendering obsolete all the other PCs..Game balance is once again
> achieved..
>
> >Is FAB astrally active?
>
> NO!!! This is the correct answer...
>
> I was going to have some fun with this one ;)
>
> Thanks again...

FASAMike wrote:
No problem...and good idea on the net...now soon as my head stops
hurting....


Mike

-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about FAB, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!