Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: FABerands (Re: Data Displays in Astral Space.)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:05:54 EDT
In a message dated 10/21/1999 9:26:33 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
abortion_engine@*******.com writes:

> With this, theoretically, you wouldn't be restricted to simple shapes,
> either. Using more FABerands woudl result in denser color, fewer [per
square
> inch] would be lighter. There. You have a low- to medium-resolution
> greyscale [as opposed to monochrome] astral monitor.

Resolution yes, I agree completely. "Color", well that might be another
thing entirely...OH HOW I WISH I COULD TALK ABOUT M&M NOW!!!!!!!!! There is
something in there that would be the final icing on this whole cake and make
it scream as *THE* new magic/technology interface. Damn it, what is the name
of the company mentioned that is *really* into working out magic/technology
interfaces???

> I think the best--but unfortunately most expensive--bet is going to be to
> recirculate as the FAB dies. I'm not certain even Nutrition would keep them
> alive. What is the new mechanic for the death of FAB over time?

Actually, I don't believe it has changed any, which could be a sad thing. IF
however the FAB was kept relatively cool, it would be slowed down. It would
still be alive, but slowed in it's life cycle enough to make it more cost
effective. The *next* step of course would be to improve upon the life-cycle
of the current stuff.

> > Hmmm...I think I just found a "target" for an extraction coming up
here
> > myself.
>
> Me, too.

Isn't all this just F'in frightening???

> Anything you can display on a 320x240 screen at, say 17", in greyscale--or
> greenscale, in this case--could be displayed on the Astral Monitor. And as
> size increases, so does area. If you want 640x480, just double the
> horizontal and vertical size.

That is fine overall, but the cost become incredibly more prohibitive if
things get to big.

> You could always put a layer of semi-transparent light emittors in front of
> the FAB screen, allowing a) the same, b) a different, or c) no, image as
the
> Astral Monitor. This would be--get this--a Dual Monitor. <g>

BOOO!!! HISSS!!! Don't let that "Dual Natured Bioware" thread cross over
into this one either, or we're all going to be extracted... ;-P

> This, of course, woudl not have as high a resolution. <g> Just like, well,
> drawing in the sand.

Yes, but when combined with the computer processing power of the SR age, it
will still work nicely. I liken it to a larger version of the Personal
Sketch pads of today.

> Um, if you had, say, 100 of the "dense" spots, and a device to read the
> "pressure," you'd have--get this--a real astral keyboard.

OUCH!! Can you imagine the sheer scale and size of this thing though? In
order to keep one life-aura from interfering/interacting improperly with
another one, they'd all have to be space-out appropriately. That could
quickly be a problem. BUT, the idea of it would become incredibly awesome.
"Keyboarding" suddenly becomes a really necessary skill again.

> > And since the FABerands in this last idea (the Notepad) were kept in a
> > general state of "lingering limbo" by the magnetic field, there'd be
very
> > little resistance to their being moved in the physical world by something
> > they are reacting with in the astral.
>
> Yep. It wouldn't be a fast way to type--and, of course, you could just use
a
> simple few buttons--but you could pretty easily do this.

True.

> > $HIT!!! I really think this could work.
> >
> Of course it could. The execsec team will be here soon. They're picking you
> up in minutes. We're going to be taken somewhere safe. I just hope it's
them
> that takes us.

No WAY!!! I'm having myself pulled out by a runner team ASAP!!! I'll see
you on the other side of the Shadows soon enough!! ;-) Unless of course,
they can prove their with either Yamatetsu or the Draco Foundation. I think
I could work for those two easily enough....

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/intro.htm]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 2
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: FABerands (Re: Data Displays in Astral Space.)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 18:26:19 -0500
:> You could always put a layer of semi-transparent light emittors in front
of
:> the FAB screen

If you just used "shutters" in front of a container of FAB, you could
have something like those signs used on the fronts of busses. Pretty cheep,
very simple.
On the other hand, thoeretically just the "shuttered" sign should be
readable, especially if any living material was behind it. The effect would
be like looking through a (varible) stencil. Would that work? I don't
think so. It's not that you can't SEE letters and words in astral space-
you simply can't UNDERSTAND them, I think.
I don't see that shaping the letters out of a dual natured material
chages that. Its the old "can't read when you are dreaming" thing.
Instead, there needs to be a magical or emotional intention that conveys
information- which I why I suggested a "message" inscribed as part of a ward
WOULD be "readable" in astral space, but was unsure an regular map that was
later enchanted would be.
Or am I missing something here?

:> Um, if you had, say, 100 of the "dense" spots, and a device to read the
:> "pressure," you'd have--get this--a real astral keyboard.

There are FAB systems that make astal mages visible; why not just have a
computer with a camera detect the mages movements, and teach them both sign
language or semaphore or something? [Or use OCR on the below mentioned
"sketchboard"] This could be made more sophisticated, maybe aproximating a
keyboard, but what's the point?
BTW, if you just want a keyboard, make the keys out of a varient on
those leach things, and wire into thier nervous systems. They know when
they are being touched astrally, and respond rather strongly. This would be
ideal for allowing an astral mage to just "sound the alarm", even if typing
were not feasible.

:> > And since the FABerands in this last idea (the Notepad) were kept in a
:> > general state of "lingering limbo" by the magnetic field, there'd be
very
:> > little resistance to their being moved in the physical world by
something
:> > they are reacting with in the astral.

You can't do it by having the mage move normal living objects (they pass
through), or even ones that are dual natured (I think you'd be attacking it
if you tried to move it).
But hell, there's a type of FAB that is DESIGNED to die when you pass
though it astrally (I don't recall it being dual natured, but we'll assume
the mage can see it well enough to see what he's doing). IIRC, the living
bacterial floresces in blacklight , iirc- the dead does not. Pump some of
that bacteria (suspended in a heavy gell) into the space between two pieces
of glass, and the mage can draw whatever he likes, and normal folks (and
cameras, and hence computers) can see it. You'd also want some way to let
the mage "wipe the board" (maybe the above mentioned leach-button).
This gives you a "canon" "astral sketchboard- it would be an awfully
special purpose gadget, though not to costly or hard to make. I'm not
saying I'm not intregued / impressed by all these ideas, but are the
benefits worth it, when you can just have the mage manifest and talk to
somebody?
Besides, if a mage can't UNDERSTAND normal letters and drawings while
astral, can he CREATE them? Whatever he types, writes, or draws might come
out like some mystic's trance induced scriblings- because that's what they
are! Just as normal written words and pictures make little sense in astral
space, astral writing and pictures might make little sense in this world.

Mongoose
(the Anti-Mage)
Message no. 3
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: FABerands (Re: Data Displays in Astral Space.)
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 04:01:50 EDT
In a message dated 10/21/1999 7:12:16 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
m0ng005e@*****.com writes:

I'm going to start this reply out by saying something direct. Mongoose, you
are once again, without even realizing, Devil's Advocating yourself into a
corner of semantics. Stop it now please.

> :> You could always put a layer of semi-transparent light emittors in front
> of
> :> the FAB screen
>
> If you just used "shutters" in front of a container of FAB, you could
> have something like those signs used on the fronts of busses. Pretty
cheep,
> very simple.

But not versatile.

> On the other hand, thoeretically just the "shuttered" sign should be
> readable, especially if any living material was behind it. The effect
would
> be like looking through a (varible) stencil. Would that work? I don't
> think so. It's not that you can't SEE letters and words in astral space-
> you simply can't UNDERSTAND them, I think.

No, I don't really believe that at all. Not even close.

> I don't see that shaping the letters out of a dual natured material
> chages that. Its the old "can't read when you are dreaming" thing.
> Instead, there needs to be a magical or emotional intention that conveys
> information- which I why I suggested a "message" inscribed as part of a
ward
> WOULD be "readable" in astral space, but was unsure an regular map that
was
> later enchanted would be.
> Or am I missing something here?

I'd say in a big way. By your descriptive definition your are formulating
here, the concept of "Astral Shapes" is completely at a loss. Quite
literally *everything* would be formless by your detailing, which is shown as
being just outright wrong in both fictional SR Novels and in Canon Material
(such as MitS and Awakenings).

If a magicians stands there in the astral and starts "moving his astral arm
in a circle", then it will have a circular perception to it as well.

> :> Um, if you had, say, 100 of the "dense" spots, and a device to read
the
> :> "pressure," you'd have--get this--a real astral keyboard.
>
> There are FAB systems that make astal mages visible; why not just have
a
> computer with a camera detect the mages movements, and teach them both sign
> language or semaphore or something? [Or use OCR on the below mentioned
> "sketchboard"] This could be made more sophisticated, maybe aproximating
a
> keyboard, but what's the point?

But, by your own descriptive choices/questions presented earlier, *this* is
not an option as your are removing the "unique shape" of astral beings; be
they magician, dual natured-whatchamathingie or anything else.

And if you can't figure out the *point*, the you need to simply slow down and
look again.

> BTW, if you just want a keyboard, make the keys out of a varient on
> those leach things, and wire into thier nervous systems. They know when
> they are being touched astrally, and respond rather strongly. This would
be
> ideal for allowing an astral mage to just "sound the alarm", even if
typing
> were not feasible.

This idea is actually a fairly good idea, and might have some merit to in
fact. It would be almost like strumming a harp instead of typing on an
oversized keyboard.

> :> > And since the FABerands in this last idea (the Notepad) were kept in
a
> :> > general state of "lingering limbo" by the magnetic field,
there'd be
> very
> :> > little resistance to their being moved in the physical world by
> something
> :> > they are reacting with in the astral.
>
> You can't do it by having the mage move normal living objects (they
pass
> through), or even ones that are dual natured (I think you'd be attacking it
> if you tried to move it).

No, you wouldn't have to be attacking it. Not all actions are viewed as
attacking gesticulation in life. And even if it was an "attack", the idea of
a singular, focused, powerful entity like a projecting magician or elemental
when placed into comparison with "vaguely responsive bacterium"???

> But hell, there's a type of FAB that is DESIGNED to die when you pass
> though it astrally (I don't recall it being dual natured, but we'll assume
> the mage can see it well enough to see what he's doing). IIRC, the living
> bacterial floresces in blacklight , iirc- the dead does not. Pump some of
> that bacteria (suspended in a heavy gell) into the space between two pieces
> of glass, and the mage can draw whatever he likes, and normal folks (and
> cameras, and hence computers) can see it. You'd also want some way to let
> the mage "wipe the board" (maybe the above mentioned leach-button).
> This gives you a "canon" "astral sketchboard- it would be an
awfully
> special purpose gadget, though not to costly or hard to make. I'm not
> saying I'm not intregued / impressed by all these ideas, but are the
> benefits worth it, when you can just have the mage manifest and talk to
> somebody?

But a magician is not capable of manifesting in such a way as to be
interactive with a camera or microphone.

> Besides, if a mage can't UNDERSTAND normal letters and drawings while
> astral, can he CREATE them? Whatever he types, writes, or draws might come
> out like some mystic's trance induced scriblings- because that's what they
> are! Just as normal written words and pictures make little sense in astral
> space, astral writing and pictures might make little sense in this world.

There is a story about a teacher who holds up a piece of paper to his class
and asks them what they see. They respond with a "piece of paper". He takes
the same piece of paper, draws a dot on it and holds it up, asking the same
question. They respond with "a Dot", and he asks them why they don't still
see the paper too?

This is almost the same approach here. If we were theorizing with "paper and
ink" in the normal sense, then as per the rules, it won't work because we
aren't utilizing "writing materials" that actually have an active astral
presence. They have a passive astral presence (the paper and pencil
technique). The "FABerands" screen and other stuff is using writing
materials that have a more active (Dual Natured) presence on the astral
plane. We've changed the Pen, not the Paper, for lack of better terms.
We're drawing attention *away* from the paper to our "Dot" we've placed upon
it.

This help a bit?

-K (and yes, it does irk me when someone sees the meaning, but due to
whatever reason there is, simply refused to bend far enough to see
possibilities they just haven't considered before. "Devil's Advocates" who
are just being such, are being helpful to no one, not even themselves.)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/intro.htm]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 4
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: FABerands (Re: Data Displays in Astral Space.)
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:33:44 -0400
> I'm going to start this reply out by saying something direct. Mongoose,
you
> are once again, without even realizing, Devil's Advocating yourself into a
> corner of semantics. Stop it now please.

I should mention up front that this sort of response, K., sounds more like
me, and less like the polite, well-reasoned person you typically are.

> > :> You could always put a layer of semi-transparent light emittors in
front
> > of
> > :> the FAB screen
> >
> > If you just used "shutters" in front of a container of FAB, you
could
> > have something like those signs used on the fronts of busses. Pretty
> cheep,
> > very simple.
>
> But not versatile.

And stupid. Don't forget stupid. I think, for a Dual-Monitor, using two
totally separate layers--or totally separate monitors!--is the best idea.
Truthfully, the only reasons I suggested it at all were, a) space-saving in
the case of people on both planes needed to use the same location for the
display of information, and, b) so that I could use the term Dual-Monitor.
It's really that simple.

> > On the other hand, thoeretically just the "shuttered" sign should
be
> > readable, especially if any living material was behind it. The effect
> would
> > be like looking through a (varible) stencil. Would that work? I don't
> > think so. It's not that you can't SEE letters and words in astral
space-
> > you simply can't UNDERSTAND them, I think.
>
> No, I don't really believe that at all. Not even close.

Me neither. You can't read the printed word in astral space because it is
not alive. The only Astral Remnant [a relatively new term, encompassing
things like Background Count, emotive remnants of persons, etc.,] is the
emotive remnant of the writer. But if the word were alive...

Well, how about this; if a person, in normal space, is sitting against a
wall, with their legs straight out on the ground, don't they look, at all,
like an L on the astral plane?

> > <snip>
> >
> > BTW, if you just want a keyboard, make the keys out of a varient on
> > those leach things, and wire into thier nervous systems. They know
when
> > they are being touched astrally, and respond rather strongly. This
would
> be
> > ideal for allowing an astral mage to just "sound the alarm", even if
typing
> > were not feasible.
>
> This idea is actually a fairly good idea, and might have some merit to in
> fact. It would be almost like strumming a harp instead of typing on an
> oversized keyboard.

Yes, I have to admit I hadn't thought of them, not surprising, given my
penchance for ignoring *anything* that came out of that damned book.

> > <snip>
> >
> > But hell, there's a type of FAB that is DESIGNED to die when you
pass
> > though it astrally (I don't recall it being dual natured, but we'll
assume
> > the mage can see it well enough to see what he's doing). IIRC, the
living
> > bacterial floresces in blacklight , iirc- the dead does not. Pump some
of
> > that bacteria (suspended in a heavy gell) into the space between two
pieces
> > of glass, and the mage can draw whatever he likes, and normal folks
(and
> > cameras, and hence computers) can see it. You'd also want some way to
let
> > the mage "wipe the board" (maybe the above mentioned leach-button).
> > This gives you a "canon" "astral sketchboard- it would be an
awfully
> > special purpose gadget, though not to costly or hard to make. I'm not
> > saying I'm not intregued / impressed by all these ideas, but are the
> > benefits worth it, when you can just have the mage manifest and talk to
> > somebody?
>
> But a magician is not capable of manifesting in such a way as to be
> interactive with a camera or microphone.

Yes. And the astral keyboard and its variants are not really meant for
situations in which manifesting is appropriate. Flexibility and options are
the keys.

> > <snip>
>
> -K (and yes, it does irk me when someone sees the meaning, but due to
> whatever reason there is, simply refused to bend far enough to see
> possibilities they just haven't considered before. "Devil's Advocates"
who
> are just being such, are being helpful to no one, not even themselves.)

Or maybe he doesn't agree with your perceptions. I do, in this case, but
sometimes people don't agree with you, K. Granted, when they don't agree
with you, they're usually wrong, but people on this board don't seem to
care. Watch your back.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about FABerands (Re: Data Displays in Astral Space.), you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!