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Message no. 1
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: FAB questions and points of view
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 23:41:53 -0700
GRANITE wrote:
Faux Pas wrote:
> It all started when someone posted a question about a character having a
> club filled with FAB and using the club to attack an astral mage (caught in
> a FAB-Net). In the days that followed, dozens and dozens of messages were
> posted regarding this, bringing up newer questions.
>

I forget who it was that nominated you as the contact point for this but
here is my point of view,
and my questions:

1] is Metathesis as discribed by Majister in the sidebar comments a real
ShadowRun 2
phenomenon??? I happen to agree with it..It seems to be the most logical
[I know...it is magic
and not bound by logic] way to deal with the attempt of 2 or more auras
to occupy the same
space..

2] If Metathesis is a true phenomenon..then as a FAB net first strikes
and then wraps around an
astral entity as the net is pulling said astral entity to the
ground/floor metathesis should occur
within the net...the FAB should be destroyed and the net fall to the
ground/floor..freeing the astral
entity..

3] If Metathesis is not a true phenomenon then the original core rules
should take over and the
auras of the FAB in the net should be deflected away from the astral aura
of the entity..and once
again the net should fall to the ground..or perhaps this would be
happening at the same time as
Metathesis..The bacteria is supposed to be held in a compressed container
so there should be
plenty of room for the FAB to deflect around the astral entity since it
is no longer compressed..

4] If the FAB [normally not an astrally active bacteria] is allowed to be
used to capture an astral
entity and the aura of this astral entity is allowed to hold up the FAB
net as though it were
suspended in mid-air then why cannot an astral entity do something
foolish like create a
transparent diokoted container shaped like a blade and as sharp as a
razor, then fill the container
with FAB or some other living material and then go astral wrap the aura
of the astral entity's
hand around the container and then carry it into let's say a guardshack
through an open window
and slit the throat of the unsuspecting guard????

5] I didn't like the whole FAB idea even when Mike Colton ran the idea
past me before he had
submitted his manuscript to FASA..I argued against it strongly then and I
still do..Although, some
of the rules in the GM section of the CorpSec handbook are fair..however,
there is contradiction
in the rules for FAB for a room and FAB for the FAB net..

6] Please, do not give a politically correct..It is your game run it the
way you want..type of
answer..We are looking for some defining answers here..we have been
arguing this out for way
too long..and noone can agree on anything except to dissagree about
almost every aspect of this
subject..FAB is a fairly big part of this sourcebook and we would like to
know more how FASA
intends it to be run...

7] And on a completely different note..What kind of skull is the one in
the main logo supposed to
be??? There are those that say it is supposed to be a Dragon skull..And
those that say that it is
some sort of goat or antelope type skull..I am of the latter disposition
as I have seen skulls that
look amost identical to the one in the logo..Or is it suppose dto be
something else entirely???

8] Thank you for your time...
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 2
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: FAB questions and points of view
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 01:55:52 -0500 (EST)
>GRANITE wrote:
>Faux Pas wrote:
>> It all started when someone posted a question about a character having a
>> club filled with FAB and using the club to attack an astral mage (caught in
>> a FAB-Net).

That was me, sorry folks, but it sure was interesting! :-)

>>In the days that followed, dozens and dozens of messages were
>> posted regarding this, bringing up newer questions.
>>
>I forget who it was that nominated you as the contact point for this but
>here is my point of view,
>and my questions:
>
>1] is Metathesis as discribed by Majister in the sidebar comments a real
>ShadowRun 2
>phenomenon??? I happen to agree with it..It seems to be the most logical
>[I know...it is magic
>and not bound by logic] way to deal with the attempt of 2 or more auras
>to occupy the same
>space..
>
>2] If Metathesis is a true phenomenon..then as a FAB net first strikes
>and then wraps around an
>astral entity as the net is pulling said astral entity to the
>ground/floor metathesis should occur
>within the net...the FAB should be destroyed and the net fall to the
>ground/floor..freeing the astral
>entity..
>
>3] If Metathesis is not a true phenomenon then the original core rules
>should take over and the
>auras of the FAB in the net should be deflected away from the astral aura
>of the entity..and once
>again the net should fall to the ground..or perhaps this would be
>happening at the same time as
>Metathesis..The bacteria is supposed to be held in a compressed container
>so there should be
>plenty of room for the FAB to deflect around the astral entity since it
>is no longer compressed..
>
>4] If the FAB [normally not an astrally active bacteria] is allowed to be
>used to capture an astral
>entity and the aura of this astral entity is allowed to hold up the FAB
>net as though it were
>suspended in mid-air then why cannot an astral entity do something
>foolish like create a
>transparent diokoted container shaped like a blade and as sharp as a
>razor, then fill the container
>with FAB or some other living material and then go astral wrap the aura
>of the astral entity's
>hand around the container and then carry it into let's say a guardshack
>through an open window
>and slit the throat of the unsuspecting guard????
>
>5] I didn't like the whole FAB idea even when Mike Colton ran the idea
>past me before he had
>submitted his manuscript to FASA..I argued against it strongly then and I
>still do..Although, some
>of the rules in the GM section of the CorpSec handbook are fair..however,
>there is contradiction
>in the rules for FAB for a room and FAB for the FAB net..
>
>6] Please, do not give a politically correct..It is your game run it the
>way you want..type of
>answer..We are looking for some defining answers here..we have been
>arguing this out for way
>too long..and noone can agree on anything except to dissagree about
>almost every aspect of this
>subject..FAB is a fairly big part of this sourcebook and we would like to
>know more how FASA
>intends it to be run...
>
>7] And on a completely different note..What kind of skull is the one in
>the main logo supposed to
>be??? There are those that say it is supposed to be a Dragon skull..And
>those that say that it is
>some sort of goat or antelope type skull..I am of the latter disposition
>as I have seen skulls that
>look amost identical to the one in the logo..Or is it suppose dto be
>something else entirely???
>
>8] Thank you for your time...

Well put. :-)


FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"I'm gonna buckle you're swash like it's never been buckled before!"
Message no. 3
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: FAB questions and points of view
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 00:25:54 -0700
Steven A. Tinner wrote:
> That was me, sorry folks, but it sure was interesting! :-)
>

Don't be..Maybe we will get some real answers from FASA about this..And
therefore you will have helped millio..thousan...hundr..well some gamers out
in the end.. ;)

> Well put. :-)
> [lips starts to twitch]Thank you..thank you very much..Now where is that
peanut and bacon sanwich??
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 4
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: FAB questions and points of view
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 03:35:13 -0500 (EST)
Whoah... That was very well put, but WAY too much technobabble for my poor
brain to handle...No offense, guys and girls... But I hope this subject is
closed finally. We had a lot of different viewpoints, some good, some bad,
some downright idiotic, but I think we've all taken our turn on the
soapbox... I hope we can bury this subject...

Thanks for listening...



Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Not a flame, but a small glow:)
Message no. 5
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: FAB questions and points of view
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 02:07:26 -0700
Steven Ratkovich wrote:
>
> Whoah... That was very well put,


Thanks...

but WAY too much technobabble for my poor
> brain to handle...


By that I assume you are talking about Metathesis..It is the reaction
[discribed by Majister in CS] that occurs when multiple auras are forced to
try and occupy the same space..The ones with the lower willpower are
killed...In a nutshell..

> No offense, guys and girls... But I hope this subject is
> closed finally.


Me too..That is why I sent it to FASAMike and CCed it to the list..

> I hope we can bury this subject...
>

You should know that is impossible..The worst subjects will ALWAYS rise from
the dead and haunt those that stick around long enough...
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 6
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: FAB questions and points of view
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 19:55:30 +1100
>1] is Metathesis as discribed by Majister in the sidebar comments a real
>ShadowRun 2
>phenomenon??? I happen to agree with it..It seems to be the most logical
>[I know...it is magic
>and not bound by logic] way to deal with the attempt of 2 or more auras
>to occupy the same
>space..

Nope... The rules say that the Astral entity is deflected away from the
physical one in the event of a "collision", but it doesn't say what
happens in the event the Astral entity has nowhere to be deflected to. It
is in THAT circumstance, and ONLY that circumstance, that Magister says
metathesis occurs.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 7
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: FAB questions and points of view
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:04:46 -0700
Robert Watkins wrote:
> Nope... The rules say that the Astral entity is deflected away from the
> physical one in the event of a "collision", but it doesn't say what
> happens in the event the Astral entity has nowhere to be deflected to. It
> is in THAT circumstance, and ONLY that circumstance, that Magister says
> metathesis occurs.
>

Robert, Robert, Robert..Please not the mail to: line of that message..It was
FASAMike@***.com...I only CCed the message to the list..I will not comment
fuurther on this sort of thing on the list...source/rulebooks are meant to
expand , clarify, and refresh the original core rules..
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 8
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject: Re: FAB questions and points of view
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 20:11:41 -0500
At 03:35 AM 9/10/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Whoah... That was very well put, but WAY too much technobabble for my poor
>brain to handle...No offense, guys and girls... But I hope this subject is
>closed finally. We had a lot of different viewpoints, some good, some bad,
>some downright idiotic, but I think we've all taken our turn on the
>soapbox... I hope we can bury this subject...

I'm sure that several people will be happy to know that the two posts from
me that should be appearing in your mailboxes along with this one are the
last posts from me on this subject. I'm willing to wait and see what FASA
says about this whole thing.

All in all, I found it to be a rather interesting discussion (if a bit
frustrating at points). I say whoever gets closest to FASAMike's call gets
awarded an honorary Th.D. from your choice of Texas A&M, MIT&M, or UCLA.

-Thomas Deeny
the Cartoonist at large is on the web at www2.cy-net.net/~fauxpas

"We were told to turn it down, stuff got broken, and everyone got naked. It
was a successful party."
-Marcus "DoubleDaves will have to name one of their stores after me" Drew.
Message no. 9
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: FAB questions and points of view
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:55:02 GMT
GRANITE writes
> To: FASAMike@***.com
> Copies to: shadowrn@********.itribe.net

ok getting into the debate very late, due to being away and message
backlog.

> Faux Pas wrote:
> > It all started when someone posted a question about a character having a
> > club filled with FAB and using the club to attack an astral mage (caught in
> > a FAB-Net). In the days that followed, dozens and dozens of messages were
> > posted regarding this, bringing up newer questions.
> >
>
first off this need not be just FAB. Long lenthgs of freshly cut vine
or lumps of unenchanted orialcum (ie not part of an actual focus)
cause the same problems.


> I forget who it was that nominated you as the contact point for this but
> here is my point of view,
> and my questions:
>
> 1] is Metathesis as discribed by Majister in the sidebar comments a real
> ShadowRun 2
> phenomenon??? I happen to agree with it..It seems to be the most logical
> [I know...it is magic
> and not bound by logic] way to deal with the attempt of 2 or more auras
> to occupy the same
> space..
>
I really cannot add to this, the comments have been made, how far you
trust Magister is open to question.

> 2] If Metathesis is a true phenomenon..then as a FAB net first strikes
> and then wraps around an
> astral entity as the net is pulling said astral entity to the
> ground/floor metathesis should occur
> within the net...the FAB should be destroyed and the net fall to the
> ground/floor..freeing the astral
> entity..
>
If he's correct. Not the policy i work to but.

> 3] If Metathesis is not a true phenomenon then the original core rules
> should take over and the
> auras of the FAB in the net should be deflected away from the astral aura
> of the entity..and once
> again the net should fall to the ground..or perhaps this would be
> happening at the same time as
> Metathesis..The bacteria is supposed to be held in a compressed container
> so there should be
> plenty of room for the FAB to deflect around the astral entity since it
> is no longer compressed..
>
My biggest problem with the FAB net is the rules for capturing a mage
are far too good, considering the target can dodge at the speed of
thought. And yes generally the target simply gets pushed out of the
way you need to get the mage to catch on something to get the net to
wrap about him/her.
You point about FAB injected into a net is valid, matbe thats what
the escaperule was supposed reflect?

> 4] If the FAB [normally not an astrally active bacteria] is allowed to be
> used to capture an astral
> entity and the aura of this astral entity is allowed to hold up the FAB
> net as though it were
> suspended in mid-air then why cannot an astral entity do something
> foolish like create a
> transparent diokoted container shaped like a blade and as sharp as a
> razor, then fill the container
> with FAB or some other living material and then go astral wrap the aura
> of the astral entity's
> hand around the container and then carry it into let's say a guardshack
> through an open window
> and slit the throat of the unsuspecting guard????
>
This is solvable. The astral entity has form and resistance to being
reformed but is not allowed to move physical objects despite having
strength. ie the FAB net can in theory wrap up the mage and gravity
will drag the net down. The FAB blocks the mage, he has no physical
form so aura contact is enough for froce transference, he gets pulled
down.
Mage tries to move net fails as the net has physical mass. You are
not allowed to affect the physical world, the rules never ban the
physical world affecting the astral, it does often enough actually,
mundanes emotions, nukes etc causing background count.

Therefore the mage cannot pick up the living dagger.

There is nothing to stop the mages astral from supporting the net.
If the mage tries to move something he fails.
If the net (or any living/magical object) tries to move an astral
entity there are three possiblities.

1) Attacker is weapon focus/dual or astral being.
target gets hurt as per the rules.

2) 'Attacker' is a mundane, falling pedestrians, FAB nets, loose
lumps of orialcum, fresh cut vines etc etc etc. And the magician is
free to move.
The magician gets shoved out of the way, no damage will be done
though the poor soul may be disorientated.

3) as 2 except for whatever reason the magician cannot be pushed
aside.
eg, trapped between FAB net and floor(FAB filled, natural earth etc).
My ruling is then treat it as per the physical world so your FAB club
will hurt but ONLY if you force the target to interact and push the
club in to the mage.
If the mage tries to push his astral fist into someone nothing
happens, the interaction is not forced as the mage could happily stay
where he is.
If you try to push the club into the mage its forced interaction, the
physical club is limited by normal physics which knows nothing about
any astral mage in the way, the aura interaction is a result of the
arua of the suff in the club being towed along by its physical
component.


When all is said and done though it should be very very difficult to
imobilise a maigician with FAB due to speed of thought, so the fact
that captured ones are target practice is no problem, and its fair,
normally astral beings get to ne recce the poor mundanes can do
nothing about!

> 6] Please, do not give a politically correct..It is your game run it the
> way you want..type of
> answer..We are looking for some defining answers here..we have been
> arguing this out for way
> too long..and noone can agree on anything except to dissagree about
> almost every aspect of this
> subject..FAB is a fairly big part of this sourcebook and we would like to
> know more how FASA
> intends it to be run...
>
I hope the above helps. Magicain/mage above could be any astral
being, and sex does not matter, assuming male is faster typing.

Mark
Message no. 10
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: FAB questions and points of view
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 21:54:02 +1100
>My biggest problem with the FAB net is the rules for capturing a mage
>are far too good, considering the target can dodge at the speed of
>thought. And yes generally the target simply gets pushed out of the
>way you need to get the mage to catch on something to get the net to
>wrap about him/her.

Dodges at the speed of thought... reacts not much faster than normally.
Besides, presumably the mage wants to stick around. If they zip away a
few thousand kilometers, they'll be a little while finding the way back.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 11
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: FAB questions and points of view
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 13:11:59 GMT
Robert Watkins writes

> >My biggest problem with the FAB net is the rules for capturing a mage
> >are far too good, considering the target can dodge at the speed of
> >thought. And yes generally the target simply gets pushed out of the
> >way you need to get the mage to catch on something to get the net to
> >wrap about him/her.
>
> Dodges at the speed of thought... reacts not much faster than normally.
> Besides, presumably the mage wants to stick around. If they zip away a
> few thousand kilometers, they'll be a little while finding the way back.
>
Agreed but, that is the lesser problem, you can always shoot from
behind, if he doesn't see it comming his reations don't matter.
The bigger problem is getting the net to wrap around the mage as on
hitting the target it will push it along without receiving an
opposing force, hence the net travells as if the mage was not there
pushing the mage in front of it. Unless the mage hits something
astrally solid pretty quick he'll be rolled out of the way of the
net.


Mark
Message no. 12
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: FAB questions and points of view
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 22:26:33 +1100
>Agreed but, that is the lesser problem, you can always shoot from
>behind, if he doesn't see it comming his reations don't matter.
>The bigger problem is getting the net to wrap around the mage as on
>hitting the target it will push it along without receiving an
>opposing force, hence the net travells as if the mage was not there
>pushing the mage in front of it. Unless the mage hits something
>astrally solid pretty quick he'll be rolled out of the way of the
>net.

Yeah, that's in the rolls... drop a net on an astral mage, he'll end up
trying to go through the floor...
The net idea is silly, unless you've got the walls lined. (OTH, the
living earth will work just as well. Hey, what if I drop an elephant or a
blue whale onto an astral mage, uh? (Of course, the elephant or whale
won't be alive for long, so maybe it doesn't really matter. :) ))


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 13
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: FAB questions and points of view
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:34:49 GMT
Robert Watkins writes
>
> Yeah, that's in the rolls... drop a net on an astral mage, he'll end up
> trying to go through the floor...
> The net idea is silly, unless you've got the walls lined. (OTH, the
> living earth will work just as well.
but then it might work.

> Hey, what if I drop an elephant or a
> blue whale onto an astral mage, uh? (Of course, the elephant or whale
> won't be alive for long, so maybe it doesn't really matter. :) ))
>
I work on the policy of resolve as if the mages physical body was
there if you force it to push and shove, therefore.
Most of the time the mage is simply going to get knocked flying and
end up out of the way if however he becomes trapped (be careful at
the zoo) i suspect 'mage pancake' is the right result. And thanks to
damage trasference his poor mates get deluged with the mess when the
physical body implodes as well.

Mark
Message no. 14
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: FAB questions and points of view
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 17:01:32 -0500 (EST)
>Yeah, that's in the rolls... drop a net on an astral mage, he'll end up
>trying to go through the floor...
>The net idea is silly, unless you've got the walls lined. (OTH, the
>living earth will work just as well. Hey, what if I drop an elephant or a
>blue whale onto an astral mage, uh? (Of course, the elephant or whale
>won't be alive for long, so maybe it doesn't really matter. :) ))
>
>
Yeah, it is a bit silly, but I'll continue using it as a
net/weapon/whatever, because it is a useful tool, and I am the GM. It works
however I want it too...



Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Not a flame, but a small glow:)

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about FAB questions and points of view, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!