Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject:	Fantasy Games Conspiracy Theory
Date:	Fri, 10 Jan 1997 06:19:10 -0500

Message no. 1 Ok, since I've been in Conspiracy Theory mode all night (see the Horrors
from mars posts), here's a rumor that's been circulating for a while, and
it may even be one that's popped up here before, but I'll toss it out to
you all anyways, because I'm that kind of guy...

Ok, a few years back (five or six, to be semi-exact), a bunch of companies
put out Fantasy based RPGs that all flopped to some degree or other. One
of these was Earthdawn. While Earthdawn has devouted followers, it does
not have the wide general support and fans that SR does. in fact, at least
one company filed for bankruptcy because of this game doing so poorly.

Anyways, the rumors floating around the Cons atthe time was that one man
was more or less responsible for all these games bombing:

Gary Gygax, famed (and hated) creator of the D&D game (at least one of them).

Apparently, gygax had managed to, under orders of the top brass at TSR (Who
he'd supposedly had a falling out with), get involved with each of these
games to some degree or other. After all, if you want to make a top notch,
best selling fantasy game, who better than to recruit to help than the guy
who started it all?

Anyways, apparently Gygax got involved in the development phase of each of
these games (tehre were at least three... probably more like six, but i
don't remember the names of any of them), and deliberately sabotaged the
gaems so that they were terrible....

<shrug>

Just a rumor, and wondering what your guys comments on that are, and if any
of you have heard of that?

Hmmm.... Here's a thought.... Would TSR be considered a Corp? If so, are
they an Evil Corp, like Aztech?? :):):)

After all, the above certainly sounds like corp espionage....:):):)

Bull
--
<.sig seperator now included at no extra cost, because I can>
=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****,com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"What the heck happened to my superheroes???"
-Me, after seeing the new Marvel Comics revamps of
Capt. America and the Hulk.

From:	Shane Courtrille <hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA>
Subject:	Re: Fantasy Games Conspiracy Theory
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:41:43 +0000

Message no. 2 > Hmmm.... Here's a thought.... Would TSR be considered a Corp? If so, are
> they an Evil Corp, like Aztech?? :):):)

If you mean in todays terms.. Yes.. In the future tho... Nah.. Just
look...

News Report: January 24th, 20something

TSR Stock Plummeted again today as news of one of the biggest terrorist
attack in the USA's history came to light. Yesterday armed men took
over ever TSR building and at 12am this morning blew the buildings
up, killing everyone inside. Sources comment as saying the screams
of "AD&D4?!?!?! No way in hell!!!!" before the explosions at, at
least one of the buildings.

*chuckle* not pretty or nice I know.. but TSR bothers me.. And after
all.. it is Shadowrun :)

SIDENOTE: semicheesy game idea.. characters are hired to kill off
development team for AD&D20th edition *Aztech took over the project
after TSR was destroyed* because there are rumours the game actually
involves blood magic, or something of the sorts.
Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca
KnightOwl on Efnet

From:	Mad Hamish <h_laws@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Fantasy Games Conspiracy Theory
Date:	Sun, 12 Jan 1997 22:52:21 +0000

Message no. 3 >Ok, since I've been in Conspiracy Theory mode all night (see the Horrors
>from mars posts), here's a rumor that's been circulating for a while, and
>it may even be one that's popped up here before, but I'll toss it out to
>you all anyways, because I'm that kind of guy...

Hey is he the one who saw Elvis?

>
>Ok, a few years back (five or six, to be semi-exact), a bunch of companies
>put out Fantasy based RPGs that all flopped to some degree or other. One
>of these was Earthdawn.

Well Earthdawn was only released in 93 so....

> While Earthdawn has devouted followers, it does
>not have the wide general support and fans that SR does.

well Shadowrun has the advantage of being _immediately_apparent_ as
something different from everything else. In addition there were (when it
was released originally) Cyberpunk, Cyberspace and Shadowrun as the _entire_
cyberpunk genre pretty much. Even now there's Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, GURPS
cyberpunk, and a couple of really new ones.

Now the fantasy roleplaying games

AD&D, Rolemaster, GURPS (insert name here), Ars Magica, Elric, Warhammer,
Mythus, MERP, Pendragon, Runequest, etc. Added to which there are a lot of
flash in the pan fantasy games produced.

> in fact, at least
>one company filed for bankruptcy because of this game doing so poorly.

Rubbish, the only company involved in Earthdawn is FASA apart from a
minature maker which is hardly likely to go broke.
>
>Anyways, the rumors floating around the Cons atthe time was that one man
>was more or less responsible for all these games bombing:
>
Newt?
Wasn't he seen having KFC with Elvis the other day?

>Gary Gygax, famed (and hated) creator of the D&D game (at least one of them).

Well Gygax basically created the first roleplaying game on the market,
working it up from skirmishing rules and then a hack and slash skirmish
based in caverns against fantasy monsters.
As to Gygax being hated that's ridiculus, there is no reason that he should
be. O.K. TSR was a hard company when he was there, but business is business
and if they reckon they're best to buy a couple of companies out ..... I'd
say that AD&D & D&D were well supported until about 4-5 years after Gygax
left, I don't agree with everything they did between the original sets and
2nd Ed but basically it was the Complete Handbook series which _really_
began the move to rubbish (imo). That was well after he'd left.
Then what has _really_ soured their reputation is their attitude to fan
stuff on the Net, which is (iirc) about 8-10 years after Gygax left.
>
>Apparently, gygax had managed to, under orders of the top brass at TSR (Who
>he'd supposedly had a falling out with),

No supposedly about it. They even made sure their revenge was complete by
encouraging him to write more Gord the Thief books. Whatever Gary is he is
_not_ an author.

> get involved with each of these games to some degree or other.

Rubbish, there is no way that he could have worked for multiple companies on
multiple game systems at the same time.

> After all, if you want to make a top notch,
>best selling fantasy game, who better than to recruit to help than the guy
>who started it all?

How about someone who's been in on the particular angle you have since the
start?
How about someone who's previous experience in game design isn't a system
kludged together with no rhyme or reason?
>
>Anyways, apparently Gygax got involved in the development phase of each of
>these games (tehre were at least three... probably more like six, but i
>don't remember the names of any of them)

Not likely that anyone would be working on 3 games for different companies
at the same time. As far as I've heard the only thing that he's worked on
was Mythus : Dangerous Journeys which was apparently quite reasonable but
ran into legal problems with TSR (that's the story I've heard anyway).

>, and deliberately sabotaged the gaems so that they were terrible....

Of course he managed this with such Subtlety that no-one in the company
noticed but everybody outside did. _And_ he managed to ensure that his name
never appeared in the credits.
>
>Just a rumor, and wondering what your guys comments on that are, and if any
>of you have heard of that?
>
Basic rubbish, like most conspiracy theories.

Firstly it's entire rubbish, secondly a very simple explanation of the
game's not taking off is
a) they might not be too good, it's tough to design a balanced, fun game
b) there has to be something to make it stand out from the crowd, AD&D
dominates the FRPG display in Australia and I understand it's the same
everywhere else, add Warhammer FRPG, Rolemaster, Earthdawn, etc and there's
a lot there which the new game has to compete against
c) Magic The Gathering : apart from the direct impact of a lot of money
being spent on this thing instead of on RPG as I understand it the American
RPG distribution system has been hit by a _lot_ of fly by night distribution
companies because of the amount of money MtG generates.

>Hmmm.... Here's a thought.... Would TSR be considered a Corp?

TSR is a corp, it is _not_ a big enough corp to be worthy of a
Shadowrunner's attention much.

>If so, are
>they an Evil Corp, like Aztech?? :):):)

No, they're not evil. There is a possible argument that they're incompetant
but hurting yourself is no sin.
>
>After all, the above certainly sounds like corp espionage....:):):)
>
And has just as much basis in fact as goblinisation based on the evidence
available.

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.sandybay.utas.edu.au

From:	Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Fantasy Games Conspiracy Theory
Date:	Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:17:53 +1100

Message no. 4 On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, Mad Hamish wrote:

BIG SNIPS EVERYWHERE!
> Rubbish, the only company involved in Earthdawn is FASA apart from a
> minature maker which is hardly likely to go broke.

Off the topic, but miniature makers are going broke everywhere at the moment!

> >Gary Gygax, famed (and hated) creator of the D&D game (at least one of them).
>
> Well Gygax basically created the first roleplaying game on the market,
> working it up from skirmishing rules and then a hack and slash skirmish
> based in caverns against fantasy monsters.
> As to Gygax being hated that's ridiculus, there is no reason that he should
> be. O.K. TSR was a hard company when he was there, but business is business
> and if they reckon they're best to buy a couple of companies out ..... I'd
> say that AD&D & D&D were well supported until about 4-5 years after Gygax
> left, I don't agree with everything they did between the original sets and
> 2nd Ed but basically it was the Complete Handbook series which _really_
> began the move to rubbish (imo). That was well after he'd left.
> Then what has _really_ soured their reputation is their attitude to fan
> stuff on the Net, which is (iirc) about 8-10 years after Gygax left.

I agree somewhat. I respect G.G. for what he did for the genre.

Hmm... snipping the rest basically.

Has anyone tried to play, no *read* GG's Dangerous Journeys advanced
optional rules?

Oh, and he wrote the novels for that RPG as well.

Shaman

|\
/-^^------------------------------| \
| _________________________|
| _______________________|
/ \ \\ |__________________|
| ````` |===/
| ````` \-- In real life: Calvin Hsieh
| ````` | In Shadowrun: Shaman
|_______| "Strange are the times we live in.
|_____| Stranger are the times we are to live.
But strangest of all are the times we have lived."
- Me, just trying to be deep and meaningful

From:	MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Fantasy Games Conspiracy Theory
Date:	Sun, 12 Jan 1997 19:01:24 -0500

Message no. 5 Calvin Hsieh wrote,
>Has anyone tried to play, no *read* GG's Dangerous Journeys advanced
>optional rules?
>
Unfortunately, after one of the support writers/playtesters/cronie
whatnot bragged about the system at a seminar and at that same seminar
later commented how much of the rules he didn't use, I never bothered. I
figured if he's staff and doesn't use it then how good can it be? I don't
know if you could get a worse recommandation than that. He also seemed to
have this hero-worship complex of Gygax. Sounded to me like he was
blinded to any rules problems at the onset.
Years have past since Gygax's more vocal days on the industry, I'll
leave it at that and allow history to rewrite itself.

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal
names more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves,
they answered to another name, because if another discovered their real
name, it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	"Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fantasy Games Conspiracy Theory
Date:	Mon, 13 Jan 1997 01:18:45 -0500

Message no. 6 OK, Bull kinda fragged this conspiracy plot a little, and since I'm the o=
ne
who hipped him to it in the first place, let me try to explain.

At the crux of the issue is the Mythus:Dangerous Journey's game, written =
by
Gygax.
Rumor has it that Gygax approached GDW with the concept out of the blue.
Before Mythus, the specialized in Modern, and SF games Twilight 2000(ick)=
,
and Traveller(double ick).

Now here comes the "father of the RPG" with an idea to rival AD&D, and wh=
o
does he take it to?
Not his old buddies at TSR, who according to the same rumor mill he IS on
good terms with?
No, he takes it to an up and coming company that has just released their
two most popular games to date - Merc 2000, and Dark Conspiracy, as well =
as
their relatively new, mildly successflu magazine Challenge.

So the game comes out, after Gygax INSISTS on TOTAL creative control, and
of course it SUCKS.
First, no one's buying the damn game, and then to top it off, TSR files a
lawsuit claiming that the concepts infringe on their copyrights.
Gygax suddenly vanishes from the scene, offering GDW no defense or help i=
n
defending their game, while the TSR legal juggernaut rolls over GDW,
culminating in IMO their recent bancruptcy and closure.

Gygax goes back to TSR and helps with a new supplement - all is forgiven.
The entire saga takes less than 3 years.
Strikes me as odd that everything happened so straigtforward and simply i=
n
TSR's favor.
Strikes me as odd that Gygax was so quickly accepted back into the TSR fo=
ld
after supposedly "stealing" TSR's concepts for the Mythis game?

This is what I see as the conspiracy.

Now, as for Earthdawn, I just find it funny that FASA and several other
smaller game companies suddenly found it important to publish a fantasy
game in close to the same time frame as the whole TSR/GDW fiasco was goin=
g
down.

Is it a giant conspiracy?
Probably not.
Is it weird that successful SF RPG companies would suddenly find an urge =
to
get into the TSR dominated fantasy games market, with the very real
possibility of losing a TON of ¥?

The truth is out there . . . :-)
<Is that how the line goes? I never watch the show . . . :-)>

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com./users/bluewizard
"Not even God takes this long to get back."

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Fantasy Games Conspiracy Theory
Date:	Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:00:15 +0000

Message no. 7 |Is it a giant conspiracy?

No, but it's a very Dark one.....
<snigger>

|Probably not.
|Is it weird that successful SF RPG companies would suddenly find an urge =
|to get into the TSR dominated fantasy games market, with the very real
|possibility of losing a TON of ¥?

Errrrr. What's a ton of ¥??

|The truth is out there . . . :-)
|<Is that how the line goes? I never watch the show . . . :-)>

Shame on you....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Carl Schelin <cschelin@**.NASA.GOV>
Subject:	Re: Fantasy Games Conspiracy Theory
Date:	Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:29:44 -0500

Message no. 8 At 10:52 PM 1/12/97 +0000, you wrote:
*snip*
>
>>Gary Gygax, famed (and hated) creator of the D&D game (at least one of them).
>
>Well Gygax basically created the first roleplaying game on the market,
>working it up from skirmishing rules and then a hack and slash skirmish
>based in caverns against fantasy monsters.
/LURK=OFF

Just FYI, Ed Greenwood (Blackmoor) actually converted the Chainmail
miniature rules into a hack and slash system. When D&D was released, Ed and
E. Gary worked on the "official" rules for D&D. Ed just sort of moved into
the background. (Something like Bill Gates and his partner (what *is* his
name?).)

Carl
/LURK=ON
-----------------------------In Real Life
"D'ya know why I wear a black hat, Joey?" Carl Schelin
"'cause the guy with the white hat" Server Operations
"always gets the girl." -Dennis the Menace NASA Headquarters
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Geek Code 3.0) GCS d- s+:+>:++ a39 C++++ UL+++ P++ L+++ E- W N+++ K
w++>+++$ O M V PS PE Y PGP- t 5 X R+++ tv- b+++ DI+++ D+++ G++ e h r y**

From:	Carl Schelin <cschelin@**.NASA.GOV>
Subject:	Re: Fantasy Games Conspiracy Theory
Date:	Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:32:53 -0500

Message no. 9 At 01:00 PM 1/13/97 +0000, you wrote:
*snip*
>|Probably not.
>|Is it weird that successful SF RPG companies would suddenly find an urge =
>|to get into the TSR dominated fantasy games market, with the very real
>|possibility of losing a TON of ¥?
>
>Errrrr. What's a ton of ¥??
>

You aren't using a MIME complient mailer I suppose. Mine came up as the
symbol for Yen (the Y with an equal sign if you don't know).

Carl
-----------------------------In Real Life
"D'ya know why I wear a black hat, Joey?" Carl Schelin
"'cause the guy with the white hat" Server Operations
"always gets the girl." -Dennis the Menace NASA Headquarters
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Geek Code 3.0) GCS d- s+:+>:++ a39 C++++ UL+++ P++ L+++ E- W N+++ K
w++>+++$ O M V PS PE Y PGP- t 5 X R+++ tv- b+++ DI+++ D+++ G++ e h r y**

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Fantasy Games Conspiracy Theory
Date:	Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:53:58 +0000

Message no. 10 |>Errrrr. What's a ton of ¥??
|>
|
|You aren't using a MIME complient mailer I suppose. Mine came up as the
|symbol for Yen (the Y with an equal sign if you don't know).

Sort of.... It activates MIME when it feels like it, and then doesn't appear
to work properly everytime.....

It might have something to do with the Terminal settings as well.....
(They don't like 8 bit stuff either)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	'Spaceman' WD Lee <spaced@*.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Fantasy Games Conspiracy Theory
Date:	Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:24:57 -0800

Message no. 11 On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Carl Schelin wrote:
# Just FYI, Ed Greenwood (Blackmoor) actually converted the Chainmail
# miniature rules into a hack and slash system. When D&D was released, Ed and
# E. Gary worked on the "official" rules for D&D. Ed just sort of moved into
# the background. (Something like Bill Gates and his partner (what *is* his
# name?).)
#
Paul Allen, who instead of putting everything he had into
Microsoft, diversified. Among other things, he owns the Portland
Trailblazers (traitor!) and Starwave, the corporation that runs
ESPNet.sportszone.com
To somehow make this SR relevant, Paul Allen/Bill Gates translate
excellently into the SR universe, especially if you take the idea that
Paul Allen is behind Microsoft, and Bill Gates is just a figurehead. Try
tracking down what Paul Allen owns, and see what you come up with....

The Spaceman |You are Rosencrantz and Guildenstern.
spaced@*.washington.edu |That is enough.
Check out the Bill Page! | -The Player
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~spaced/bill.html
GCC/GL d- s:++ a-- C++ U+ P+ L>L++ !E W++ N++ o+ K w !O M-- V--
PS+ PE Y+ PGP t 5++ X+ R+ tv b+++ DI+ D+ G+ e+ h r z+
MPA/SH/TA S G Q+ 666 y W C++ N+ PEC+++ Dr

From:	"Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fantasy Games Conspiracy Theory
Date:	Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:52:31 -0500

Message no. 12 > |Probably not.
> |Is it weird that successful SF RPG companies would suddenly find an urge
=
> |to get into the TSR dominated fantasy games market, with the very real
> |possibility of losing a TON of ¥?
>
> Errrrr. What's a ton of ¥??

Actually a ton of ¥ is the windows code for the nuyen symbol.
On my PC it comes up as the funny little Y with an = through it.

Not that any one system is better than another!
I don't want to start another thread like that! ;-)

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com./users/bluewizard
"Not even God takes this long to get back."

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Fantasy Games Conspiracy Theory
Date:	Tue, 14 Jan 1997 01:21:07 +0000

Message no. 13 |Not that any one system is better than another!
|I don't want to start another thread like that! ;-)

Awww. Go on...
It'll help kill all the timberthowers....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject:	Re: Fantasy Games Conspiracy Theory
Date:	Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:59:51 +0000

Message no. 14 > From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
> Subject: Fantasy Games Conspiracy Theory

> put out Fantasy based RPGs that all flopped to some degree or other. One
> of these was Earthdawn. While Earthdawn has devouted followers, it does
> not have the wide general support and fans that SR does. in fact, at least

I'd hardly call ED a flop, and I'm sure that it would do as well as
SR if there were a comparable number of systems in the two settings.
Fact is there are a ton of decent FRPG's out there and only a few
cyberpunk based systems.

> one company filed for bankruptcy because of this game doing so poorly.

Do you mean AWOL? They had problems that had nothing to do with ED.

<snip stupid rumor bout the great GARY> :^)

> Just a rumor, and wondering what your guys comments on that are, and if any
> of you have heard of that

ROFLMAO! That is funny.

> After all, the above certainly sounds like corp espionage....:):):)

Sounds more like defamation of character to me. Wouldn't suprise me
if TSR started that rumor. They must hate having to deal with Gary.
<G> If I remember correctly, TSR won their suit against Gary over
Dangerous Journeys, but had to retain him as a consultant or
something.

--Droopy

droopy@**.net

From:	Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject:	Re: Fantasy Games Conspiracy Theory
Date:	Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:59:51 +0000

Message no. 15 > From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
> Subject: Re: Fantasy Games Conspiracy Theory

> Gygax goes back to TSR and helps with a new supplement - all is forgiven.
> The entire saga takes less than 3 years.

TSR had no choice about taking Gary back. It was court ordered.

> Strikes me as odd that Gygax was so quickly accepted back into the TSR fold
> after supposedly "stealing" TSR's concepts for the Mythis game?

I liked the list of "stolen" ideas in mythis....lets see, uses
multisided dice to generate random numbers (I guess the single sided
die wasn't random enough) uh...some reference to using physical
stats, etc. TSR only won the suit, because Gary had actually started
working on the game before he left TSR.

At least, those are some of the details as I remember them.

--Droopy
droopy@**.net

From:	MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Fantasy Games Conspiracy Theory
Date:	Tue, 14 Jan 1997 00:20:36 -0500

Message no. 16 Droopy wrote,
>I liked the list of "stolen" ideas in mythis....lets see, uses
>multisided dice to generate random numbers (I guess the single sided
>die wasn't random enough) uh...some reference to using physical
>stats, etc. TSR only won the suit, because Gary had actually started
>working on the game before he left TSR.
>
>At least, those are some of the details as I remember them.

Part of TSR's suit was that the original name was Dangerous
Dimensions. TSR claimed it's abbreviation, DD was trying to profit off of
confusion with D&D. GDW had to change the name as part of that lawsuit.

- MC23, who remembers all that from the old trade mags -

From:	"Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: Fantasy Games Conspiracy Theory
Date:	Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:22:52 +0100

Message no. 17 On Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:52:31 -0500, Steven A. Tinner wrote:

>Actually a ton of ¥ is the windows code for the nuyen symbol.
>On my PC it comes up as the funny little Y with an = through it.

I don't think it's a windows code but rather some MIME coding. Anyway
it's not ASCII, and play ASCII would always be fine.
Then there are still different codepages like ISO 8859-x and so on,
which are all different.
A real good system (or mailer) let's you choose

(OS/2 and PMMail do ... but not that one system is better than the
other;)

-- Arno

From:	"Mike Mulvihill (FASA)" <FASAMike@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fantasy Games Conspiracy Theory
Date:	Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:23:10 -0500

Message no. 18 In a message dated 1/14/97 05:10:30 AM, you wrote:

<snip Droopy's responses>

>If I remember correctly, TSR won their suit against Gary over
>Dangerous Journeys, but had to retain him as a consultant or
>something.

Only if they plan on publishing DJ... if not (which of course they aren't)
they never have to deal with him again. Ain't the law grand.

Have Fun!
Play Games!
Send Lawyers, Guns and Money!

Mike Mulvihill
Shadowrun Line Developer
FASA
www.fasa.com

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