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From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Farming in Shadowrun
Date:	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:17:48 -0400

Message no. 1 Okay, so what the hell *IS* going on here?

According to canon, soy and myco-protein based foods are the staple of many
diets, if not most, in 205X.

But we can also rationally figure out that this is a bit odd, that cloning
and corporate interests and such sort of contradict this.

So what's the deal?

Here's a few thoughts.

1) Even with cloning and various other advances, it's still a heck of a lot
cheaper to produce soy and myco-protein based foods. This is probably the
reason I like best, since it fits in with the megacorporate attitude.

2) Land is expensive and rare. With North America shattered as it is in
205X, and populations having been heavily shifted around, large tracts of
land (hehe) may not be as available and may be horrendously expensive.

3) NAN resistance to farming. I find this one odd too, that the
back-to-nature types would have enough clout to shut down what are now
profitable farms. But I suppose it's possible.

4) California right now is an agricultural powerhouse. Much of what
Americans put on their table comes from CA farms, such as oranges, lettuce
and various other fruits and vegetables. In 205X, CalFree is a fractured
and mostly lawless nation. Not good for large scale farming.

5) Environmental poisoning. Across the board, in nearly all species,
fertility rates are dropping. Male fertility is taking a major impact. In
humans, sperm count and testosterone levels are badly down and alligators
exposed to polluted water for a certain length of time during development
have a penis about half the size it should be, impairing their ability to
reproduce. I'm sure the same thing is happening with cattle and sheep and
whatnot. And given current practices, it isn't too hard to imagine a major
plague hitting the cattle industry and wiping out millions of head of
cattle in a few decades time. This is another idea that I particularly like.

Combine all five factors together and I think you may have enough of an
impact on global agriculture that could explain why real beef and real
coffee are supposed to be so rare in Shadowrun.

Erik J.

URL to go here eventually...

From:	Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Farming in Shadowrun
Date:	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:10:37 EDT

Message no. 2 In a message dated 7/6/98 11:35:09 AM, ErikJ wrote:

>1) Even with cloning and various other advances, it's still a heck of a lot
>cheaper to produce soy and myco-protein based foods. This is probably the
>reason I like best, since it fits in with the megacorporate attitude.
>
>2) Land is expensive and rare. With North America shattered as it is in
>205X, and populations having been heavily shifted around, large tracts of
>land (hehe) may not be as available and may be horrendously expensive.
>
>3) NAN resistance to farming. I find this one odd too, that the
>back-to-nature types would have enough clout to shut down what are now
>profitable farms. But I suppose it's possible.
>
>4) California right now is an agricultural powerhouse. Much of what
>Americans put on their table comes from CA farms, such as oranges, lettuce
>and various other fruits and vegetables. In 205X, CalFree is a fractured
>and mostly lawless nation. Not good for large scale farming.
>
>5) Environmental poisoning. Across the board, in nearly all species,
>fertility rates are dropping. Male fertility is taking a major impact. In
>humans, sperm count and testosterone levels are badly down and alligators
>exposed to polluted water for a certain length of time during development
>have a penis about half the size it should be, impairing their ability to
>reproduce. I'm sure the same thing is happening with cattle and sheep and
>whatnot. And given current practices, it isn't too hard to imagine a major
>plague hitting the cattle industry and wiping out millions of head of
>cattle in a few decades time. This is another idea that I particularly like.
>
>Combine all five factors together and I think you may have enough of an
>impact on global agriculture that could explain why real beef and real
>coffee are supposed to be so rare in Shadowrun.

There's also the political fragmentation. Right now, there are *comparatively*
few trade barriers to agricultural items (let's ignore things Europe's Common
Agricultural Policy and the U.S.'s sugar tarriff for now). You can move
lettuce from California to New York no problem, in refrigerated freight cars
that stand a pretty good chance of arriving in good shape. But in Shadowrun,
the load of coffee beans that would have crossed two countries and a peaceful
Atlantic in 1998 now crosses four countries and a few thousand miles of pirate
infested blue water. Transportation costs skyrocket.

But you can easily raise your vat-food within the boundaries of the
metroplexes, cutting down on tarriffs, spoilage, and the risk of theft.

Smilin' Ted

From:	Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Farming in Shadowrun
Date:	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 23:20:25 -0400

Message no. 3 >4) California right now is an agricultural powerhouse. Much of what
>Americans put on their table comes from CA farms, such as oranges, lettuce
>and various other fruits and vegetables. In 205X, CalFree is a fractured
>and mostly lawless nation. Not good for large scale farming.

California in 205X is also cut off from much of the water that is all but
steals in 199X. The NAN may have cut a good deal with California, but I
doubt it.

Wordman

"Whiskey's for drinkin'. Water's for fightin'."
-- Old Colorado saying

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Farming in Shadowrun
Date:	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:10:08 -0400

Message no. 4 At 11:20 PM 7/6/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>4) California right now is an agricultural powerhouse. Much of what
>>Americans put on their table comes from CA farms, such as oranges, lettuce
>>and various other fruits and vegetables. In 205X, CalFree is a fractured
>>and mostly lawless nation. Not good for large scale farming.
>
>California in 205X is also cut off from much of the water that is all but
>steals in 199X. The NAN may have cut a good deal with California, but I
>doubt it.

Hey, as a Californian, I bristle at the constant accusations of us all
being in a cult (Matb) and of stealing water, the later of which is
probably true.

But I did forget that CalFree is cut off from much of their water supply.
That would have a serious impact on agriculture, and since California
supply much of the US's oranges and other things like tomatos to the
nation, the inability to grow as much of those crops would make *real*
orange juice something of a luxury.

Hrmmm...the more I think about it, the prevalence of mycoprotein and
soybased foods makes more sense.

Erik J.

URL to go here eventually...

From:	Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Farming in Shadowrun
Date:	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:43:23 -0400

Message no. 5 At 03:17 PM 7/6/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Okay, so what the hell *IS* going on here?
>
>According to canon, soy and myco-protein based foods are the staple of many
>diets, if not most, in 205X.
>
>But we can also rationally figure out that this is a bit odd, that cloning
>and corporate interests and such sort of contradict this.
>
>So what's the deal?
>
>Here's a few thoughts.
>
>1) Even with cloning and various other advances, it's still a heck of a lot
>cheaper to produce soy and myco-protein based foods. This is probably the
>reason I like best, since it fits in with the megacorporate attitude.

Its cheaper because all you need is some wet and some sugar. Sugar is
realtively easy and cheap to grow in warmer climates, therefore you have an
easy supply of it. Most of the time you're trying now to KILL mold, its
easy to grow it. Unlike other crops, you don't have to fertilize it, kill
insects, make sure it doesn't get overripe or any other stuff than corn has
to.

>2) Land is expensive and rare. With North America shattered as it is in
>205X, and populations having been heavily shifted around, large tracts of
>land (hehe) may not be as available and may be horrendously expensive.
>

Its not that land is expensive and rare. The plexes are crowded, but
outside of town there's stuff. Look at Shonomish (sp?) in Seattle, its
rural with smaller farms. Its not how much you have, its what you do with it.

>3) NAN resistance to farming. I find this one odd too, that the
>back-to-nature types would have enough clout to shut down what are now
>profitable farms. But I suppose it's possible.
>

I don't think that they could do that. But I'm betting they have no trouble
putting some heavy export tarrifs on food going out into the rest of the
country or world. They got the land, get a benefit out of it.

>4) California right now is an agricultural powerhouse. Much of what
>Americans put on their table comes from CA farms, such as oranges, lettuce
>and various other fruits and vegetables. In 205X, CalFree is a fractured
>and mostly lawless nation. Not good for large scale farming.
>

Definitely. You lose some growing in CalFree from the wars, loss of water,
etc.

>5) Environmental poisoning. Across the board, in nearly all species,
>fertility rates are dropping. Male fertility is taking a major impact. In
>humans, sperm count and testosterone levels are badly down and alligators
>exposed to polluted water for a certain length of time during development
>have a penis about half the size it should be, impairing their ability to
>reproduce. I'm sure the same thing is happening with cattle and sheep and
>whatnot. And given current practices, it isn't too hard to imagine a major
>plague hitting the cattle industry and wiping out millions of head of
>cattle in a few decades time. This is another idea that I particularly like.
>

Very true here. The possibility of some major diseases hitting not only
people with VITAS, but also farm aninals. Also, I've seen reports that the
amount of inbreeding from using the best cattle is decreasing the sperm
count of cattle in general. Not enough variability in the gene pool.

>Combine all five factors together and I think you may have enough of an
>impact on global agriculture that could explain why real beef and real
>coffee are supposed to be so rare in Shadowrun.

6) Weather patterns. Screwed up with magic coming back in general, along
with some of the bigger spells. I'm sure that 5 volcanoes from the Great
Ghost Dance screwed up stuff for a while. The growing of the Amazon
rainforest again, which would change levels of oxygen and CO2 in the air. I
think one of the NAN volumes mentions specifically that weather is more
unpredictable now.

Also, soy can be grown inside all year round very easily. Can't say that
about beef, pigs etc. You have to keep them warm and fed instead of letting
them graze.

7) Maybe the grain that is normally used to feed cattle, chickens et all.
is being used somewhere else. Notice how a big part of the vehicles aren't
gasoline powered anymore? They use multi-fuel. Around here, that means 90%
gas, 10% ethanol. I could easily believe that they cut that ratio to 50/50
to save on oil, increasing the demand for corn. That takes away land from
growing food to making cars go, and raises the price of what's left higher
than it would be normally also. And it explains why there still is oil left
in the world in 2060, along with fusion and other power sources.

>
>Erik J.
>

Sommers
"Hey, you mean I could drink right out of my gas tank?"

From:	K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Farming in Shadowrun
Date:	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:57:37 EDT

Message no. 6 In a message dated 7/7/98 1:16:16 PM US Eastern Standard Time, erikj@****.COM
writes:

> Hey, as a Californian, I bristle at the constant accusations of us all
> being in a cult (Matb) and of stealing water, the later of which is
> probably true.

I would just like to point out that it was you that started that strange,
weirdo place, on the west coast for the elderly and mishaven ;)

And as for them stealing water, I won't say "stealing", but I know that the
eastern california valley systems gets' their water (a sizable portion, not
all) from the Colorado River Water Shed. THAT IS A FRAGGING DESERT!!! Think
about that goofballness if you can. Arizana is selling water to the
Californians...(giggle)

> But I did forget that CalFree is cut off from much of their water supply.
> That would have a serious impact on agriculture, and since California
> supply much of the US's oranges and other things like tomatos to the
> nation, the inability to grow as much of those crops would make *real*
> orange juice something of a luxury.

yeah, that would be a real bummer. However, Texas and Florida combined
provide the bigger majority of said fruits for usage. And now said production
(farming) is moving out of nation as well.

> Hrmmm...the more I think about it, the prevalence of mycoprotein and
> soybased foods makes more sense.

It has always made sense, if for no other reason as a food staple for the food
producers we use. AKA, Livestock feeding methods. A great deal of Livestock
and Pet foods already contain a higher content range of soy byproducts (just
what a "soy byproduct" is, I don't know) than even our (human) food
supplementations. The only way I actually see it is that those incredible
addictive "NukeEm' Burritos" that you find at all convenience stores will be
even more prevalent than they are now. As well as anything else that bares a
strange comparisonal consistency to Pulped Babyfood.

-K

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Farming in Shadowrun
Date:	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:39:14 -0400

Message no. 7 At 04:57 PM 7/7/98 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 7/7/98 1:16:16 PM US Eastern Standard Time, erikj@****.COM
>writes:
>
>> Hey, as a Californian, I bristle at the constant accusations of us all
>> being in a cult (Matb) and of stealing water, the later of which is
>> probably true.
>
>I would just like to point out that it was you that started that strange,
>weirdo place, on the west coast for the elderly and mishaven ;)

Mishaven? Well, if you meant misbehavin', that get's my vote. ;-)

But if I were true to the retirement demographics, I'd put the home in
Florida...

>And as for them stealing water, I won't say "stealing", but I know that the
>eastern california valley systems gets' their water (a sizable portion, not
>all) from the Colorado River Water Shed. THAT IS A FRAGGING DESERT!!! Think
>about that goofballness if you can. Arizana is selling water to the
>Californians...(giggle)

The whole thing is odd. It's all really quite epic, honestly. Check out
the film "Chinatown" to get a hint of what all went down to provide
California with water. Which is why most Californians don't really argue
the "stealing" point. We just shrug our shoulders, say we need and we pay
for it, so what's the big deal?

>> But I did forget that CalFree is cut off from much of their water supply.
>> That would have a serious impact on agriculture, and since California
>> supply much of the US's oranges and other things like tomatos to the
>> nation, the inability to grow as much of those crops would make *real*
>> orange juice something of a luxury.
>
>yeah, that would be a real bummer. However, Texas and Florida combined
>provide the bigger majority of said fruits for usage. And now said
production
>(farming) is moving out of nation as well.

True, a sizable portion of agriculture is moving outside of the US. But
California does provide a substantial portion of most the fruits and
vegetables the nation eats. Nearly everyone thinks that Florida is home of
the orange, that most US oranges are from Florida. Not true, at least not
anymore. California produces more oranges; a New Yorker is more likely to
eat a Florida orange than a CA one, but the "Golden State" produces more.

To counterbalance that "rah rah" sentiment, California is one seriously
fucked up place. It's a major accident waiting to happen, in many ways.
If there is *ever* a race war in the US, I'll bet it gets started in the
hyper-melting pot that is Los Angeles.

>It has always made sense, if for no other reason as a food staple for the
food
>producers we use. AKA, Livestock feeding methods. A great deal of Livestock
>and Pet foods already contain a higher content range of soy byproducts (just
>what a "soy byproduct" is, I don't know) than even our (human) food
>supplementations. The only way I actually see it is that those incredible
>addictive "NukeEm' Burritos" that you find at all convenience stores will be
>even more prevalent than they are now. As well as anything else that bares a
>strange comparisonal consistency to Pulped Babyfood.

Hell, yeah, when we think about it, how much of what we eat on a daily
basis is real, pure natural food? Real cheese is non-existent in most fast
food, it's some cheese-like chemical product. Damn...

I'll concede to FASA on this one. Their vision regarding food probably
does make a certain amount of sense.

Erik J.

URL to go here eventually...

From:	Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Farming in Shadowrun
Date:	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 18:15:23 EDT

Message no. 8 In a message dated 7/7/98 1:45:22 PM, ErikJ wrote:

>The whole thing is odd. It's all really quite epic, honestly. Check out
>the film "Chinatown" to get a hint of what all went down to provide
>California with water. Which is why most Californians don't really argue
>the "stealing" point. We just shrug our shoulders, say we need and we pay
>for it, so what's the big deal?

The real killer is what the farmers pay for their water, as opposed to what
the rest of pay...say, about 10%. The last "drought" we had in SoCal would
never have happened if the subsidies were gone. There are actually farmers
growing RICE here, the water rates they pay are so low.

Smilin' Ted

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Farming in Shadowrun
Date:	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 19:47:59 -0400

Message no. 9 At 06:15 PM 7/7/98 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 7/7/98 1:45:22 PM, ErikJ wrote:
>
>>The whole thing is odd. It's all really quite epic, honestly. Check out
>>the film "Chinatown" to get a hint of what all went down to provide
>>California with water. Which is why most Californians don't really argue
>>the "stealing" point. We just shrug our shoulders, say we need and we
pay
>>for it, so what's the big deal?
>
>The real killer is what the farmers pay for their water, as opposed to what
>the rest of pay...say, about 10%. The last "drought" we had in SoCal would
>never have happened if the subsidies were gone. There are actually farmers
>growing RICE here, the water rates they pay are so low.

Oh yeah...those damn Central California farmers get seriously up in arms
"their" water is used for damn people in SoCal to drink...

You're in SoCal? I'll have to e-mail you private to see what's up. I've
got an SR game, regular group, this Saturday...

Erik J.

URL to go here eventually...

From:	Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: Farming in Shadowrun
Date:	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:41:21 -0700

Message no. 10 Erik Jameson wrote:

> Hey, as a Californian, I bristle at the constant accusations of us all
> being in a cult (Matb) and of stealing water, the later of which is
> probably true.

It wasn't an accusation, it was a joke. Reeeeeeeelax. It's summer. :)

If you're seriously insulted, I do apologize.

- Matt

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