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Message no. 1
From: Philip Morrison <morrison@*******.SCRI.FSU.EDU>
Subject: FASA
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 16:50:14 EDT
Hey, any of you guys got an internet or Compu$erve or Genie address for someone
at FASA? If ya got on please let me know.
--Cowboy <16:52:01/07-26-54>

morrison@*******.scri.fsu.edu
Message no. 2
From: Thomas Hirt <kragan@***.UVIC.CA>
Subject: FASA
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 18:22:09 PST
Has anyone ever thought of asking FASA to post messages to this list that
tell when a new SRII product has made it off of the drawing board and onto
gaming store shelves? I would love to now exactly when it is released, it
would help me budget. (Starving student and all...)

Just my thoughts,
Blackest Night
AKA Tom Hirt.


"I do believe that we are up an unsanitary tributary with insufficient means
of locomotion." Kryton, Red Dwarf
Message no. 3
From: Cuckoo Clock <cukoo@*****.NET>
Subject: FASA
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 12:50:22 -0700
Does FASA have a Web Page, and if so, what's the address?
Message no. 4
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@************.ORG>
Subject: Re: FASA
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 16:03:08 -0400
On Sat, 7 Oct 1995, Cuckoo Clock wrote:

> Does FASA have a Web Page, and if so, what's the address?
>
Unfortunately no, though they have presences on AOL, GEnie, and
Steve Jackson Games's Illuminati Online.
Instead, us fans have to create the pages. *grin*

---------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@************.org> =========---------
| Keeper of the FAQ, ShadowRN and NERPS mailing lists at HEARN |
----========== http://www.cybernothing.org/jdfalk/home.html ==========----
Message no. 5
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: FASA
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:49:19 -0400
On Sat, 7 Oct 1995, Cuckoo Clock wrote:

> Does FASA have a Web Page, and if so, what's the address?

Not yet. They said at GenCon that they're planning one, though.

--Craig
Message no. 6
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: FASA
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 14:11:00 PST
Matti Aistrich said on 20 Feb 96...

> Are any FASA people involved in this list? Anyone undercover?
>
> Is big brother listening to us? :-)

>There's one or two people here who wrote material for FASA or have other
>relatively close ties with them, but AFAIK no actual FASA employees are on
>the list (although Mike Mulvihill did buy a T-shirt last year, didn't he?
:)

It may be paranioa sp? but quite a few interesting ideas that were talked
about here and on nerps have managed to wind their way into FASA material.
Wouldn't you monitor a list were tonnes of ideas are thrown around and
feedback on it is given. This would be a good way to have shadowrun take a
direction that the
major populace would agree on.

Ricky
Message no. 7
From: Larry <lomion@********.net>
Subject: Re: FASA
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 17:46:12 -0500
At 14:11 02/20/96 PST, St. Jean, Ricky wrote:
>
>
>Matti Aistrich said on 20 Feb 96...
>
>> Are any FASA people involved in this list? Anyone undercover?
>>
>> Is big brother listening to us? :-)
>
>>There's one or two people here who wrote material for FASA or have other
>>relatively close ties with them, but AFAIK no actual FASA employees are on
>>the list (although Mike Mulvihill did buy a T-shirt last year, didn't he?
>:)
>
>It may be paranioa sp? but quite a few interesting ideas that were talked
>about here and on nerps have managed to wind their way into FASA material.
>Wouldn't you monitor a list were tonnes of ideas are thrown around and
>feedback on it is given. This would be a good way to have shadowrun take a
>direction that the
>major populace would agree on.
>
>Ricky

Wouldn't surprise me, but FASA has always been very receptive about ideas
and feedback for shadowrun, a few years ago back when Sam Lewis was still
there in fact a con i was at I managed to talk to Sam about both Battletech
and Shadowrun, he was interested in feedback, more for Btech tho, but still
he did listen.
Larry
lomion@**.cybernex.net
http://www2.cybernex.net/~lomion
-----------------------------------------------
"I had only to wish that here be a large crowd
of spectators then day of my execution and that
they greet me with cries of hate."
A. Camus, "The Stranger"
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 8
From: Adam <adam@***.cosmos.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: FASA
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 16:11:34 -0700
At 17:46 20/02/96 -0500, you wrote:
>At 14:11 02/20/96 PST, St. Jean, Ricky wrote:
>>
>>
>>Matti Aistrich said on 20 Feb 96...
>>
>>> Are any FASA people involved in this list? Anyone undercover?

>Wouldn't surprise me, but FASA has always been very receptive about ideas
>and feedback for shadowrun, a few years ago back when Sam Lewis was still
>there in fact a con i was at I managed to talk to Sam about both
>Battletech and Shadowrun, he was interested in feedback, more for Btech
>tho, but still he did listen.

I know for a fact that Steve Kenson, a freelance writer for FASA is
subscribed, and he probably passes things on to Mike, and Mike probably
thinks "why didn't i think of that?"

later chummers

---------------------------------------------------\
\Adam@******.ab.ca http://www.cosmos.ab.ca/~adam \
\IRC: Fro Chanop on #shadowrun, #ad&d and #www \
----------------------------------------------------
Message no. 9
From: "Rodney D'Armand" <rdarmand@*****.net>
Subject: Re: FASA
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 22:29:04 -0500
At 02:11 PM 2/20/96 PST, you wrote:
>Wouldn't you monitor a list were tonnes of ideas are thrown around and
>Ricky ^^
||
||================================||
||
Are these English tonnes or metric tonnes? ;-)

"You're crazy, Arthur."
"Yeah, maybe... I mean those two men that were trying to kill us were just
eaten by a cow, and that seems perfectly normal."
The Tick Omnibus

1 33333333 Rodney D'Armand
111 3333333333 (an alias)
1111 3333 333 rdarmand@*****.net
11 333333 "Chaos erupts and Bureau 13 is there."
11 333333 I am *not* a member of a top secret
11 3333 333 goevernment agency.
11 333333333
11111111 3333333
Message no. 10
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: FASA
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 11:11:53 +0100
St. Jean, Ricky said on 20 Feb 96...

> It may be paranioa sp? but quite a few interesting ideas that were talked
> about here and on nerps have managed to wind their way into FASA material.
> Wouldn't you monitor a list were tonnes of ideas are thrown around and
> feedback on it is given. This would be a good way to have shadowrun take a
> direction that the major populace would agree on.

I don't quite think of us (i.e. these lists) as the majority of Shadowrun
players... There's what, 300 or so people on this list, and most of them
are lurkers so their ideas don't surface all that much. IMHO, monitoring
this list would give FASA an idea of what the most vocal members of this
list like and don't like, but we don't necessarily represent the rest of
the SR players out there, or even the lurkers of this very list...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Stay with us, it's better than the soap operas!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 11
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: FASA
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 13:00:56 +0000 (GMT)
|
|At 02:11 PM 2/20/96 PST, you wrote:
|>Wouldn't you monitor a list were tonnes of ideas are thrown around and
|>Ricky ^^
| ||
| ||================================||
| ||
|Are these English tonnes or metric tonnes? ;-)

Metric. Imperial tones are spelt... well, I've already spelt it haven't
I.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal in:- |to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hikers' guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Words the Americans can't use on the internet (but i can ;) | GCv3.1 |
|fuck, shit, cunt, tit, abortion, asshole, cock, penis, twat, |GCS/FA>$ |
|bitch, (anal rape tag), midget, tossing, plutonim 232, |d---(dpu) |
|(alt.binaries.hamster.ducttape.watersports), assasinate, |s+/- a- C++ |
|rebellion, fertilizer, explosives, anarchy, babyoil, fornicate,|U N++ K- w--|
|POE, weather, underground, subgenius, Bill Clinton, kidnap, |M+/++ PS+++ |
|socks, suicide, machine, marijuana, LSD |PE- Y t+ 5++|
|---------------------------------------------------------------|X+/++ R+ tv+|
| Thank You Big Brother... |b+ D G e>PhD|
| (add this to your .sig) |h/h+ !r! !y-|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 12
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: FASA
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 14:35:39 +0000 (GMT)
|
||
||At 02:11 PM 2/20/96 PST, you wrote:
||>Wouldn't you monitor a list were tonnes of ideas are thrown around and
||>Ricky ^^
|| ||
|| ||================================||
|| ||
||Are these English tonnes or metric tonnes? ;-)
|
|Metric. Imperial tones are spelt... well, I've already spelt it haven't
|I.....
Ooops. I meant Tons. <*embarrased blush*>
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal in:- |to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hikers' guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Words the Americans can't use on the internet (but i can ;) | GCv3.1 |
|fuck, shit, cunt, tit, abortion, asshole, cock, penis, twat, |GCS/FA>$ |
|bitch, (anal rape tag), midget, tossing, plutonim 232, |d---(dpu) |
|(alt.binaries.hamster.ducttape.watersports), assasinate, |s+/- a- C++ |
|rebellion, fertilizer, explosives, anarchy, babyoil, fornicate,|U N++ K- w--|
|POE, weather, underground, subgenius, Bill Clinton, kidnap, |M+/++ PS+++ |
|socks, suicide, machine, marijuana, LSD |PE- Y t+ 5++|
|---------------------------------------------------------------|X+/++ R+ tv+|
| Thank You Big Brother... |b+ D G e>PhD|
| (add this to your .sig) |h/h+ !r! !y-|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 13
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: FASA
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 12:29:00 PST
St. Jean, Ricky said on 20 Feb 96...

>> It may be paranioa sp? but quite a few interesting ideas that were talked

>> about here and on nerps have managed to wind their way into FASA
material.
>> Wouldn't you monitor a list were tonnes of ideas are thrown around and
>> feedback on it is given. This would be a good way to have shadowrun take
a
>> direction that the major populace would agree on.

>I don't quite think of us (i.e. these lists) as the majority of Shadowrun
>players... There's what, 300 or so people on this list, and most of them
>are lurkers so their ideas don't surface all that much. IMHO, monitoring
>this list would give FASA an idea of what the most vocal members of this
>list like and don't like, but we don't necessarily represent the rest of
>the SR players out there, or even the lurkers of this very list...

No but we do supply a good cross-section of players with our different
views.
They don't poll everyone in a country on a survey just a small sample. We
are
a small heterogeneous group of players.

Ricky
Message no. 14
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: FASA
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 11:42:19 +0100
Rodney D'Armand said on 20 Feb 96...

> >Wouldn't you monitor a list were tonnes of ideas are thrown around and
> >Ricky ^^
> ||
> ||================================||
> ||
> Are these English tonnes or metric tonnes? ;-)

Metric, going by the spelling.

(It seems to me that most English-language publications use "ton" for
Imperial, and "tonne" for Metric. The difference, you are? One is 907 kg,
the other 1000 kg.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Stay with us, it's better than the soap operas!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 15
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: FASA
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 11:42:19 +0100
St. Jean, Ricky said on 21 Feb 96...

> No but we do supply a good cross-section of players with our different
> views. They don't poll everyone in a country on a survey just a small
> sample. We are a small heterogeneous group of players.

Wouldn't that work counter-productive to a survey? I mean, wouldn't it be
better to question people from all over the place, instead of a single
group that regularly interacts with each other, if you want to find out
what The Audience(tm) wants?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Stay with us, it's better than the soap operas!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 16
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: FASA
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 96 13:26:00 PST
----------
St. Jean, Ricky said on 21 Feb 96...

>> No but we do supply a good cross-section of players with our different
>> views. They don't poll everyone in a country on a survey just a small
>> sample. We are a small heterogeneous group of players.

>Wouldn't that work counter-productive to a survey? I mean, wouldn't it be
>better to question people from all over the place, instead of a single
>group that regularly interacts with each other, if you want to find out
>what The Audience(tm) wants?

Well really we are all over the place. I'm from Canada, some are from
Europe, and a few are from other places. We all discuss some things but we
still have our individual points of views. Except for you and a select few
others, we are practically in the dark about what is happenning. Basically
we provide a random cross-section of the shadowrun playing population who
have an average amount of knowledge about shadowrun world. The only
commonality is this list. We have no special knowledge that unlisted
players have. Do we?

Ricky
Message no. 17
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: FASA
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 11:01:34 +0100
St. Jean, Ricky said on 22 Feb 96...

> Well really we are all over the place. I'm from Canada, some are from
> Europe, and a few are from other places. We all discuss some things but we
> still have our individual points of views.

And that leads to some people influencing others, and IMHO that is exactly
what you don't want to have if you do a poll to find out what your public
likes and doesn't like.

> Except for you and a select few
> others, we are practically in the dark about what is happenning.

I think I'm just as much in the dark as you are...

> Basically
> we provide a random cross-section of the shadowrun playing population who
> have an average amount of knowledge about shadowrun world. The only
> commonality is this list. We have no special knowledge that unlisted
> players have. Do we?

We probably don't as individuals, but together we can (and do) reach
conclusions that none of us would reach without the others' input.
Although the knowledge of the SR world is not what this is about -- it's
about what we want and don't want to happen to the SR world, and I hold
that a group can and does often influence the opinions of its members,
which would not be good for someone holding a poll.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And I don't know why.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 18
From: h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
Subject: Re: FASA
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 14:07:58 +1000
>||Are these English tonnes or metric tonnes? ;-)
>|
>|Metric. Imperial tones are spelt... well, I've already spelt it haven't
>|I.....
>Ooops. I meant Tons. <*embarrased blush*>


Yeah, wouldn't metric Tones be the tempered scale?

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.sandybay.utas.edu.au
Message no. 19
From: Adam Lewis adamswork@*****.com
Subject: FASA
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:26:46 -0700 (PDT)
<de-lurking>

I notice a lot of threads ending in negative comments
about how FASA doesn't care about the product or the
players or what I had for lunch. It seems there is
more negativity towards FASA than is normal for a
gaming company.

I have a habit of getting 4-5 books for a gaming
system then I get bored and they get traded or lost.
The same thing happens with Shadowrun and Earthdawn,
except I always come back to them, I never get rid of
their books.

They've pissed me off a little before, like making the
Companion damn hard to find with out mail-order. But
they make a good product, a very good product.

The art, the writing, the usefullness of the material,
it's all a little bit better then your average RPG.

So when you're mad about the web page or book delays
or Mike's got gas, whatever, remember all the good
products they've put out. And they /do/ care, maybe
not about the same stuff you do, but they care about
putting out a quality product, that's obvious.

<re-lurking>


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 20
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: FASA
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 16:50:44 -0400
At 04:26 PM 6/2/99 , Adam Lewis wrote:
>The art, the writing, the usefullness of the material,
>it's all a little bit better then your average RPG.

You're right, I think that for the most part they put out a very good
product. There are some things that they've done with the world that I
might not have done, but that's personal preference. I think it was very
ambitious of the company to invent a game that combines to very different
genres and have it be updated and evolved as the years have gone by. The
amount of arguing about the game that goes on here is a testament to the
quality of the game, that the people who do argue about it are that
interested in it.

>So when you're mad about the web page or book delays
>or Mike's got gas, whatever, remember all the good
>products they've put out. And they /do/ care, maybe
>not about the same stuff you do, but they care about
>putting out a quality product, that's obvious.

The problem is that they can care as much as they want about a quality
product, but if they don't care what I as the consumer want, they'll go out
of business. Now I do think that they do care about the consumer, and make
a very good game. The problem for the most part is one of perception, and
how they deal with their customers.

Its great when you make a product that everyone wants to buy. If its
advertised originally as coming out in November and doesn't make it until
March, that's not so good. I'm not saying that they should rush an
unfinished product to print, but it does breed animosity towards the
publisher. Especially since after all of those delays typos (or the dreaded
page XX) still make it in there.

The web page is another example. If they want a web presence, they should
do it well or not at all. They have had up there for a month or so now that
the corporate book will be out in June. How long would it take to change
that to "Sent to printers May 15th" and then "shipped to distibutors Jun
10th"? We hear that stuff on the list because some people either send in
emails and ask or know someone there. How much time could they save doing that?

What I think a lot of people are saying is that they do a good job with the
books. We're just dissapointed with the public face that they show to the
public about those books.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 21
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: FASA
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 14:55:01 -0700
>The web page is another example. If they want a web presence, they should
>do it well or not at all. They have had up there for a month or so now that
>the corporate book will be out in June. How long would it take to change
>that to "Sent to printers May 15th" and then "shipped to distibutors
Jun
>10th"? We hear that stuff on the list because some people either send in
>emails and ask or know someone there. How much time could they save doing
that?

Take into account that the person who was originally doing the website is
no longer with FASA, and the ones who took over moved to Seattle. With all
the changes FASA has undergone recently, it's a good thing when the site
gets updated at all.

Mike is trying his best to keep updating the Shadowrun part of the site,
but learning html is going to have to take a back seat to the job he gets
*PAID* for every time. As for hiring someone to do the web site for them,
that is a decision they will have to make, and no amount of whining on the
fans part is going to make a damned bit of difference.

Having an internet presence is still fairly new to many companies, and
unless you have the staffing and revenue to justify having a web design
group, it ain't gonna happen right away, it's got to ger planned. A staff
of 20 people, turning out five games, (SR, CS, BT, MW, HM) has most of the
staff doing more then one job already. I know my site updates get delayed
for a few weeks when RL or work interferes, and I'm not working nearly on
the volume and deadlines that the FASA crew are.

Summary of my post: GIVE IT A REST. If you have to complain about
something, complain about the fact that you have so little of a life you
have to complain how others run their company.

Sheesh.


--
Dvixen - dvixen@********.com - dvixen@****.com
Herkimer's Lair - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair
"What's your sign?" - "Trespassers will be shot."
Comments/Questions accepted, flames dropped into the abyss.
Message no. 22
From: Robert Blackberg cougar@****.mpinet.net
Subject: FASA
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 19:24:12 -0400
Dvixen wrote:
> Take into account that the person who was originally doing the website is
> no longer with FASA, and the ones who took over moved to Seattle. With all
> the changes FASA has undergone recently, it's a good thing when the site
> gets updated at all.
>
> Mike is trying his best to keep updating the Shadowrun part of the site,
> but learning html is going to have to take a back seat to the job he gets
> *PAID* for every time. As for hiring someone to do the web site for them,
> that is a decision they will have to make, and no amount of whining on the
> fans part is going to make a damned bit of difference.
>
> Having an internet presence is still fairly new to many companies, and
> unless you have the staffing and revenue to justify having a web design
> group, it ain't gonna happen right away, it's got to ger planned. A staff
> of 20 people, turning out five games, (SR, CS, BT, MW, HM) has most of the
> staff doing more then one job already. I know my site updates get delayed
> for a few weeks when RL or work interferes, and I'm not working nearly on
> the volume and deadlines that the FASA crew are.
>
> Summary of my post: GIVE IT A REST. If you have to complain about
> something, complain about the fact that you have so little of a life you
> have to complain how others run their company.
>
> Sheesh.

Now come on, that was a little low.

I'm going to do something I never do. De-lurk and comment on an
ongoing thread.

Listen, we know the FASA crew has a lot to do and that they're all
terribly nice people. I think most of the people on the list agree
with that. There may be a few of us who think they don't care, but I
think the quality of their games speaks differently. If they didn't
care, we'd have another AD&D on our hands.

But, (you knew there had to be one :) ) the fact that they haven't
made the Rigger 2 errata available yet is a valid criticism. There
should at least be some consistency in the way they handle
clarifications/corrections.

Dvixen, how many times has the Shadowrun 3 main rulebook
errata been updated on your site? Three? Four? Why aren't they
waiting for M&M before they publish the main rulebook's errata? It
would make sense to review the R2 errata with the information they
currently have, then send it to you for archival. That way we could
all access the information, and when it needs to be updated after
M&M comes out, we could all grab a new copy. Simple, elegant,
and satisfactory.

Man, going off digest mode after three years does wonders for
one's loquaciousness.

Robert
No cool tagline, just a plain line_______________________
Message no. 23
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: FASA
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:49:04 +1000
> Dvixen, how many times has the Shadowrun 3 main rulebook
> errata been updated on your site? Three? Four? Why aren't they
> waiting for M&M before they publish the main rulebook's errata? It
> would make sense to review the R2 errata with the information they
> currently have, then send it to you for archival. That way we could
> all access the information, and when it needs to be updated after
> M&M comes out, we could all grab a new copy. Simple, elegant,
> and satisfactory.

Because the Main Rule Book is meant to be playable by itself. This isn't
AD&D, where you need at least three books to play, you know.

They update the errata for the BBB so that people can play with just the
BBB. People with the R2, however, are in a different kettle of fish.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 24
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: FASA
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 19:59:35 -0700
At 07:24 PM 02/06/99 , Robert Blackberg annoyed me by writing:
>Dvixen, how many times has the Shadowrun 3 main rulebook
>errata been updated on your site? Three? Four? Why aren't they
>waiting for M&M before they publish the main rulebook's errata? It
>would make sense to review the R2 errata with the information they
>currently have, then send it to you for archival. That way we could
>all access the information, and when it needs to be updated after
>M&M comes out, we could all grab a new copy. Simple, elegant,
>and satisfactory.

I have in fact been in regular contact with Mike regarding all the
Errratas, as well as the authors who compiled them. As I have mentioned
many times both on list and off, as soon as the Rigger2 errata is made
available, I WILL post it to my site within days of my receiving it, RL
interference notwithstanding.

And keep in mind each time an errata is released, the remainder of the
erratas (most books) have to be gone through to make sure that there are no
FAB-like conflicts.

--
Dvixen - dvixen@********.com - dvixen@****.com
Herkimer's Lair - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair
"What's your sign?" - "Trespassers will be shot."
Comments/Questions accepted, flames dropped into the abyss.
Message no. 25
From: Joshua Mumme Grimlakin@****.com
Subject: FASA
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 23:29:29 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: Dvixen <dvixen@****.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: FASA


> Take into account that the person who was originally doing the website is
> no longer with FASA, and the ones who took over moved to Seattle. With all
> the changes FASA has undergone recently, it's a good thing when the site
> gets updated at all.
>
> Mike is trying his best to keep updating the Shadowrun part of the site,
> but learning html is going to have to take a back seat to the job he gets
> *PAID* for every time. As for hiring someone to do the web site for them,
> that is a decision they will have to make, and no amount of whining on the
> fans part is going to make a damned bit of difference.
>
> Having an internet presence is still fairly new to many companies, and
> unless you have the staffing and revenue to justify having a web design
> group, it ain't gonna happen right away, it's got to ger planned. A staff
> of 20 people, turning out five games, (SR, CS, BT, MW, HM) has most of the
> staff doing more then one job already. I know my site updates get delayed
> for a few weeks when RL or work interferes, and I'm not working nearly on
> the volume and deadlines that the FASA crew are.
>
> Summary of my post: GIVE IT A REST. If you have to complain about
> something, complain about the fact that you have so little of a life you
> have to complain how others run their company.

Yes they are a company and WE the GAMEING PUBLIC are their customers who buy
their product and keep them in business. I think it is great that they have
a way to see their customers wants and desires. I think that helps them
keep on top of the ball. Perhaps you think a company that is a
goods/service <like or or not FASA is a product/service oriented company.
It has to be or it will go out of business.> company would ignore the
wishes of it's customers? That is a foolish thing. If we the customer
wine because we want a greater web presence from the company. Perhaps then
the company should look into putting some resources into strengthening their
web presence? That is called good business.

To tie this in with SR.

Renraku probably has a very established network presence. Imagine if they
decided to branch into a virtual reality hosting of their amusement park.
But just a couple rides.. and they were ok rides at that. If the public
wanted more Renraku probably wouldn't say. Naaa let them suffer they will
come back to us anyway.. I mean what is the compitition really that good in
the first place? No they would put resources into strengthening what is
percived by the public is a weak presentation of their company. <Now this
would of course be PRE arc.>

>
> Sheesh.
That is what I say.
> Dvixen - dvixen@********.com - dvixen@****.com

Josh
Message no. 26
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: FASA
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:50:21 +1000
Joshua Mumme writes:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dvixen <dvixen@****.com>
> To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 4:55 PM
> Subject: Re: FASA
>
>
> > Summary of my post: GIVE IT A REST. If you have to complain about
> > something, complain about the fact that you have so little of a life you
> > have to complain how others run their company.
>
> Yes they are a company and WE the GAMEING PUBLIC are their
> customers who buy
> their product and keep them in business. I think it is great
> that they have
> a way to see their customers wants and desires. I think that helps them
> keep on top of the ball. Perhaps you think a company that is a
> goods/service <like or or not FASA is a product/service oriented company.
> It has to be or it will go out of business.> company would ignore the
> wishes of it's customers? That is a foolish thing. If we the customer
> wine because we want a greater web presence from the company.
> Perhaps then
> the company should look into putting some resources into
> strengthening their
> web presence? That is called good business.

Josh, they've got 20 or so staff, they have real work to do, and they are
doing something called "prioritising". That is also good business.

The people on ShadowRN are very web-aware. In all likelihood, most of FASA's
customers are not so web-aware. Putting effort into their web site means
that they are not putting effort into: a) developing new product. b)
Developing other forms of advertising, including pamphlets for GenCon. c)
running the business (making sure that their publishers are putting the
books out, paying the bills, making sure that they're being paid what they
are owed, chasing up new customers, etc).

Remember, FASA's customers aren't really you and I. FASA's customers are
game stores and other retailers. What FASA need to do is convince retailers
to stock their products, and having a snazzy web-site isn't the best way to
do that. Sure, it helps drum up more support from the owners of FASA
products, but there are other ways to do that, including heavy advertising
at GenCon. If putting extra effort into keeping their web-site up to date
detracts from the other, MORE EFFECTIVE means of getting sales, then putting
in that effort is silly, pure and simple.

> To tie this in with SR.
>
> Renraku probably has a very established network presence. Imagine if they
> decided to branch into a virtual reality hosting of their amusement park.
> But just a couple rides.. and they were ok rides at that. If the public
> wanted more Renraku probably wouldn't say. Naaa let them suffer they will
> come back to us anyway.. I mean what is the compitition really
> that good in
> the first place? No they would put resources into strengthening what is
> percived by the public is a weak presentation of their company.
> <Now this
> would of course be PRE arc.>
>
> >
> > Sheesh.
> That is what I say.

Hardly a fair analogy, Joshua. Renraku is a huge corporation, with a staff
of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands. FASA is a company with a staff of 20
odd, most of whom are busy developing the games. Sure, they want a web
presence, and are doing their best to maintain one, but when you're a small
company (and that IS what FASA is), you have to prioritise. FASA obviously
has put a lower priority on their web focus than you do.

To quote Dvixen, who said it more aptly than you: Sheesh. Give the guys a
break. What do you want, good products OR a good web site? (Notice the lack
of an 'and')

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 27
From: Joshua Mumme Grimlakin@****.com
Subject: FASA
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 03:40:36 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 11:50 PM
Subject: RE: FASA


> To quote Dvixen, who said it more aptly than you: Sheesh. Give the guys a
> break. What do you want, good products OR a good web site? (Notice the
lack
> of an 'and')

I understand what you are saying. It does seem to be a concern of the
buyers of the product who determin what to buy from the distributors who
determin what to order from the publishers who determin what to pay fasa for
the next batch of printing their product. OR something like that. Their
are other ways to maintain a web presence. Pay an outside source <IE web
developer> to make the pages. Provide them with the material and what they
want. The outside source will develop the page. I know that that does cost
money. But a good web source for players to turn to in my openion IS good
advertiseing. Imagine going to <for instance> the everquest <or any other
computer RPG web page> and seeing an add for shadowrun or some odd Pen and
Paper RPG. I am betting money that if they click on that add.. get a good
idea of what the game is about >presented in a nice fashion that is easy to
understand.> That that person would then be likely <not garunteed mind
you.> to go to amazon.com and place an order for the product. <if they are
web heads at least like I am.>

Lets say that nets 1000 hits a day in that manner. Of thoes thousand hits
lets say 20% purchase any fasa product. That is 200 people a day
possibly buying fasa product. And that is only from the COMPUTER RPG
industry. That industry has a strong following and SOME of them will be NEW
to the RPG industry at all. <a supriseing number new to the Pen and paper
RPG at least.>

maby it is prioritizing.. But I think that the web needs a little more of a
stable and better looking <as in feel> presentation. Just my .02 ¥.
<alt+0933>

Josh
Message no. 28
From: Quindrael d.n.m.vannederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl
Subject: FASA
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 11:11:57 +0200
>But a good web source for players to turn to in my openion IS good
>advertiseing. Imagine going to <for instance> the everquest <or any other
>computer RPG web page> and seeing an add for shadowrun or some odd Pen and
>Paper RPG. I am betting money that if they click on that add.. get a good
>idea of what the game is about >presented in a nice fashion that is easy to
>understand.> That that person would then be likely <not garunteed mind
>you.> to go to amazon.com and place an order for the product. <if they are
>web heads at least like I am.>

But they _do_ have a great site for new customers. There's a lot of
coverage for all their games, with pictures, bookcovers, previews of many
products, etc. Someone who doesn't have the game yet isn't interested in
errata and things like that. Although I must say that a good "in-game" site
is interesting to them, as it gives a good view of the gameworld. But
that's something that takes time and money to develop, and I know they're
working on it, so we'll just have to be patient.

It's the people who already play the games who are not satisfied. I must
say that I can't wait until the Nexus (as Mike told me the SR site will be
called) is up, but I'm satisfied with what we have now. We often get
updates of the catalog, we get previews, etc.
Heck, only 5 years ago there was _nothing_ like this (well, maybe their
website was just starting then), and we bought all the stuff even then.
Yes, I'd wish they put up the errata to Rigger 2, but they do not have to.
It's a _service_, and they give us already a lot more than many other
companies.

Also remember that still many of their customers have no or very rare
access to the internet. Unlike many of us believe, there's still a lot of
internet-challenged people out there.

>Lets say that nets 1000 hits a day in that manner. Of thoes thousand hits
>lets say 20% purchase any fasa product.

I think that is a much too high percentage. I think 1% is more realistic,
or even less. Further, I have no idea of 1000 hits a day is realistic.
Maybe a 1000 hits, yes, but many will have been there before.

VrGr David

This is not a signature, every mail I type it again.
Message no. 29
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: FASA
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 09:04:01 -0400
At 05:55 PM 6/2/99 , Dvixen wrote:
>>The web page is another example. If they want a web presence, they should
>>do it well or not at all. They have had up there for a month or so now that
>>the corporate book will be out in June. How long would it take to change
>>that to "Sent to printers May 15th" and then "shipped to
distibutors Jun
>>10th"? We hear that stuff on the list because some people either send in
>>emails and ask or know someone there. How much time could they save doing
>that?
>
>Take into account that the person who was originally doing the website is
>no longer with FASA, and the ones who took over moved to Seattle. With all
>the changes FASA has undergone recently, it's a good thing when the site
>gets updated at all.

Trust me, I understand how messed up you can get at work, and how things
can get put on the back burner. And moving all around the country can mess
you up. But didn't some of this stuff happen last year?

>Mike is trying his best to keep updating the Shadowrun part of the site,
>but learning html is going to have to take a back seat to the job he gets
>*PAID* for every time. As for hiring someone to do the web site for them,
>that is a decision they will have to make, and no amount of whining on the
>fans part is going to make a damned bit of difference.

First, I don't think he should have to learn html. It shouldn't be that
hard to use Word as a WYSIWYG editor to be able to type out small new
releases once a week or something. If the web design compnay did a good job
with the site, uploading a small file with the smae name every time should
be relatively trivial.

From the way it sounds, they have already hired a company to do their web
site design and updates. The problem is that they haven't done a good job
of it. Of course, no amount of whining on my part as a fan will make a
difference to their policies. But, constructive criticism on my part as a
consumer should make a difference to them. I want to let the thread run a
little longer, collect my thoughts on it, and forward a message to FASA
with some of that constructive criticism.

>Having an internet presence is still fairly new to many companies, and
>unless you have the staffing and revenue to justify having a web design
>group, it ain't gonna happen right away, it's got to ger planned. A staff
>of 20 people, turning out five games, (SR, CS, BT, MW, HM) has most of the
>staff doing more then one job already. I know my site updates get delayed
>for a few weeks when RL or work interferes, and I'm not working nearly on
>the volume and deadlines that the FASA crew are.

The FASA web page has been up since at least 96. And all along it has
limped along, mant times not being updated for months. There are still
links that are up there that are at least months out of date. Up until
about a month ago there was still a release schedule from Sept that gave
release dates for New Seattle in November. The first Shadowtalk section was
put up on 3/15, the next on 4/12. Now a month anf a half later, nothing.
Your real life gets in the way of your hobby, that's expected. The FASA web
page is part of their company.

FASA feel under the same thought as a lot of other companies, get a web
page up as fast as you can because that's what you're supposed to do. They
didn't think what they wanted to put up there before it went live, and
haven't been good about keeping it up. And so it doesn't look professional.
If a company does a web page, it should look as professional as the company
wants to be treated.

>Summary of my post: GIVE IT A REST. If you have to complain about
>something, complain about the fact that you have so little of a life you
>have to complain how others run their company.

Wait a minute! A lot of other people around here would say that I have way
to much of a life as it is. I'm posting stuff up here because I think that
they do have a good company and should have an internet site as good as
their company. If you don't think that its relevent to SR, that's fine.
Several of us think that the way parts of the company is run is valid to
SR's future.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 30
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: FASA
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 09:20:13 -0400
At 12:50 AM 6/3/99 , Robert Watkins wrote:
>Joshua Mumme writes:
>Josh, they've got 20 or so staff, they have real work to do, and they are
>doing something called "prioritising". That is also good business.

That is very true, they have a small staff. So do a lot of other companies
that also do a better job while still putting out just as much product.

>The people on ShadowRN are very web-aware. In all likelihood, most of FASA's
>customers are not so web-aware. Putting effort into their web site means
>that they are not putting effort into: a) developing new product. b)
>Developing other forms of advertising, including pamphlets for GenCon. c)
>running the business (making sure that their publishers are putting the
>books out, paying the bills, making sure that they're being paid what they
>are owed, chasing up new customers, etc).

The people here are very aware. Whether or not other SR customers are is an
open question. You can't be alive now and nont know about the web. They
advertise the address in their books. How many of those customers who are
new to the game looked at that web page and didn't find the help about
simple questions that could be answered on a good site? How many new people
have come here and asked the same questions after starting the game?

Two of your points, about advertising and chasing up new customers, are
handled very well by a good internet site. Check out the interaction at the
SJGames site, for example. They're going to be selling their GURPS Lite
rules in the stores in a few weeks, but have had a pdf version up there for
months. Simple rules, just enough to whet the appetite. Things like that
are a natural for FASA, but they don't do it much. (And I prefer Shadowrun
to GURPS, not having played it at all. I just like their site.)

>Remember, FASA's customers aren't really you and I. FASA's customers are
>game stores and other retailers. What FASA need to do is convince retailers
>to stock their products, and having a snazzy web-site isn't the best way to
>do that. Sure, it helps drum up more support from the owners of FASA
>products, but there are other ways to do that, including heavy advertising
>at GenCon. If putting extra effort into keeping their web-site up to date
>detracts from the other, MORE EFFECTIVE means of getting sales, then putting
>in that effort is silly, pure and simple.

That's just wrong. Ford's customers aren't their dealers, they are the
customers who buy the cars. FASA's customers aren't the game stores and
retailers, they are just the middlemen. If enough customers come into a
store and say that tehy want game X, I guarantee that that store will
either get it or lose customers.

How many people go to GenCon for three days? About 10,000? That would be a
little under 30 people a day looking at their page for a year, which they
can do for free. I'm sure they do more than that. For those who think that
its silly to try to get people interested in a product through a web page
and then sell them things, talk to Amazon.com. How many days did it take
them to sell 900 hardbound editions of SR3 at GenCon? How many MINUTES did
it take them to sell the last 100 online? The web is becoming a very
effective way to sell products to consumers and avoiding the middleman of
the distributor.

>To quote Dvixen, who said it more aptly than you: Sheesh. Give the guys a
>break. What do you want, good products OR a good web site? (Notice the lack
>of an 'and')

Like I said, I don't want to bust their chops. I'd like to offer criticism
from a paying customer. Especially with some of that Microsoft Money (tm)
that they got, they shouldn't have to pick between one or another.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 31
From: Ojaste,James [NCR] James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA
Subject: FASA
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:29:55 -0400
Adam Lewis [mailto:adamswork@*****.com]
> I notice a lot of threads ending in negative comments
> about how FASA doesn't care about the product or the
> players or what I had for lunch. It seems there is
> more negativity towards FASA than is normal for a
> gaming company.

I guess that I should respond as this is directed towards me... ;-)

> I have a habit of getting 4-5 books for a gaming
> system then I get bored and they get traded or lost.
> The same thing happens with Shadowrun and Earthdawn,
> except I always come back to them, I never get rid of
> their books.

I buy the main book of any system that interests me. In a few systems, I
buy everything (or almost so) - SR, BGC, HG/JC/T8, L5R, FS. There are
others that I'd buy more of if they actually released other books, as well.
As such, I consider myself a loyal customer of FASA.

> They've pissed me off a little before, like making the
> Companion damn hard to find with out mail-order. But
> they make a good product, a very good product.

Yes, FASA does a good job, in general. However, taking a look at SR as a
whole, I find that FASA's strength is in background and atmosphere, *not*
rules and mechanics. There are many systems with either more realism,
faster gameplay, or a simpler/more consistent implementation. As such,
more than anything else, the world of SR is their product, not the game.

> The art, the writing, the usefullness of the material,
> it's all a little bit better then your average RPG.

Possibly - but DP9 consistently has *much* better art and Unknown Armies
has much better writing. As for usefulness, the most useful of the SR books
have tended to be the most unusual - ShadowBeat and NAGRL for example.
I'd like to see more material of that type - detailing the *things* in the
world as much as they do the *events*.

> So when you're mad about the web page or book delays
> or Mike's got gas, whatever, remember all the good
> products they've put out. And they /do/ care, maybe
> not about the same stuff you do, but they care about
> putting out a quality product, that's obvious.

I mainly complain about their web presence. I really only do that because
I know that the web is the most important contact they'll ever have with
their clientele. People are used to waiting months for a new book to come
out - in fact, they're used to badly slipping "deadlines" in FASA's case.
When I want to get information on any given topic, I'll turn to the web
first because it's more likely to get me a reliable response within a much
shorter period of time than anything else.

Would it really kill them to spend a few minutes every week to update
their current projected ship dates? The web page needn't be fancy - a
simple, clean appearance is just fine. What's important is the information.

I'm very happy that they got the online ordering system up this past year,
but that's just the tip of the iceberg.

James Ojaste
Message no. 32
From: Ojaste,James [NCR] James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA
Subject: FASA
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:47:21 -0400
Quindrael [mailto:d.n.m.vannederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl]
> But they _do_ have a great site for new customers. There's a lot of
> coverage for all their games, with pictures, bookcovers,
> previews of many

Hah! "Previews", you say? I usually end up reading the book before the
preview gets posted...

> products, etc. Someone who doesn't have the game yet isn't
> interested in
> errata and things like that. Although I must say that a good

Yes and no - they aren't interested in the specifics of the errata, but
they're probably interested in a) is errata going to be available and
b) how much errata is there (ie how many mistakes does the company let
slip through).

> It's the people who already play the games who are not
> satisfied. I must

You mean the people who actually buy most of the books? I agree.

> Heck, only 5 years ago there was _nothing_ like this (well,

I agree (unless you want to count BBSes). I also know how much of an
impact the Internet has had on people over the past 5 years. Of course,
it hit me a couple of years before most, but... :-)

> maybe their
> website was just starting then), and we bought all the stuff
> even then.
> Yes, I'd wish they put up the errata to Rigger 2, but they do
> not have to.
> It's a _service_, and they give us already a lot more than many other
> companies.

That depends greatly on which companies you're talking about. Alderac
also has a lousy web presence, which much the same excuses. R. Talsorian
has had a very spotty presence (once upon a time it was updated weekly,
believe it or not), but that's reasonable given their...refocus. DP9 has
a good web presence - not quite great, but good. They post a message
(even if it's nothing more than "we're alive and kicking") every week or
two, and they post art and errata for their products. SJ Games has a great
web presence. They've got errata, links to supplementary sites, daily
updates, a weekly subscriber webzine with forums, reviews, articles and
playtest materials - they truly understand the web.

> Also remember that still many of their customers have no or very rare
> access to the internet. Unlike many of us believe, there's
> still a lot of
> internet-challenged people out there.

There are a lot of people out there without net access, I'll grant.
However, how many of them are regular FASA customers? We shouldn't be
looking at the populace as a whole, but the FASA customer base. They
may not all use the net as a primary contact point, but most of them
could, I'd bet.

> >Lets say that nets 1000 hits a day in that manner. Of
> thoes thousand hits
> >lets say 20% purchase any fasa product.
> I think that is a much too high percentage. I think 1% is
> more realistic,

I agree.

> or even less. Further, I have no idea of 1000 hits a day is realistic.
> Maybe a 1000 hits, yes, but many will have been there before.

The number of hits depends on the hosting site. I expect that the EQ
site probably gets 10,000 hits daily, so a 10% click-through seems
reasonable for a decent ad. Keeping in mind that you're advertising
to an already targetted audience (RPGers, if CRPGers), you're likely
to get a higher percentage of click-throughs *and* purchases based on
those. So, even if only 1% of click-throughs buy into the product line,
that's still a good chunk of change. $30 main book, 2 or 3 supplements
at $20, it adds up pretty quickly.

James Ojaste
Message no. 33
From: Ojaste,James [NCR] James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA
Subject: FASA
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:00:03 -0400
Sommers [mailto:sommers@*****.umich.edu]
> >Josh, they've got 20 or so staff, they have real work to do,
> and they are
> >doing something called "prioritising". That is also good business.
> That is very true, they have a small staff. So do a lot of
> other companies
> that also do a better job while still putting out just as
> much product.

Case in point, Dream Pod 9 (http://www.dp9.com/). In the past year,
they've put out an incredible amount of product for three separate lines
(all based on the same system). They've got a good web presence and only
8 employees. If they can do it, why can't FASA? Oh yeah, the DP9 team
is Canadian, so I guess FASA's at a slight disadvantage. ;-)

> How many people go to GenCon for three days? About 10,000?
> That would be a
> little under 30 people a day looking at their page for a
> year, which they
> can do for free. I'm sure they do more than that. For those
> who think that
> its silly to try to get people interested in a product
> through a web page
> and then sell them things, talk to Amazon.com. How many days
> did it take
> them to sell 900 hardbound editions of SR3 at GenCon? How
> many MINUTES did
> it take them to sell the last 100 online? The web is becoming a very

Counting the first half hour when their site was totally unaccessible?
I think it took like 2 hours total. :-)

> >To quote Dvixen, who said it more aptly than you: Sheesh.
> Give the guys a
> >break. What do you want, good products OR a good web site?
> (Notice the lack
> >of an 'and')

I want a good web site, first, and *then* good products. Maintaining
a good web site doesn't have to be a full-time job. Half an hour every
week or two would be fine, if they spend that half hour updating content
instead of drawing new button images. It's not an either-or, it's
priorities - the difference between important and urgent.

> Like I said, I don't want to bust their chops. I'd like to
> offer criticism
> from a paying customer. Especially with some of that
> Microsoft Money (tm)
> that they got, they shouldn't have to pick between one or another.

Exactly - they could do so much better, but as the squeaky wheel gets
the grease, I'm squeaking.

James Ojaste
Message no. 34
From: Shaun E. Gilroy shaung@**********.net
Subject: FASA
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 11:18:43 -0400
At 11:11 AM 6/3/99 +0200, you wrote:
<snippage
>Also remember that still many of their customers have no or very rare
>access to the internet. Unlike many of us believe, there's still a lot of
>internet-challenged people out there.
>
>VrGr David

Let me begin this by saying I love FASA. Shadowrun is practically the only
game I still play because I can't swallow the other rule systems.

Now, with that out to the way.

What about attracting new gamers? What about all the gamers who use the
web now, not to mention the ones that will be doing so within the coming
year, even?

Say I'm a gamer who has never played anything but D&D and Magic. I look at
White Wolf's site, Pinnacle's site and Steve Jackson Games site, then turn
my eyes on fasa.com.

It sucks by comparison. I wouldn't even consider looking into their games.
I would take one look at fasa.com and say: "Wow, their products must
really be disorganized and poorly crafted".

SJG, Pinnacle and WW are not any bigger than FASA and look what they're doing.

I really appreciate being able to order products I can't find or don't have
time to find on-line, but that's all there really is to fasa.com.

I don't think anyone is saying that it's FASA's responsibility to set
on-line trends, but it would be nice if they could just keep up.



Shaun Gilroy [shaung@**********.net]
Online Technologies Corp.
Message no. 35
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: FASA
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:20:51 +1000
Sommers writes:
> That's just wrong. Ford's customers aren't their dealers, they are the
> customers who buy the cars. FASA's customers aren't the game stores and
> retailers, they are just the middlemen. If enough customers come into a
> store and say that tehy want game X, I guarantee that that store will
> either get it or lose customers.

You've got the wrong business model.

Who pays FASA for their products? _RETAILERS_, not consumers. Why do
retailers purchases FASA products? Because FASA (and other sources)
convinces the retailers that people will buy those products. There are lots
of ways to convince those retailers of that, and a web presence for the
consumers is only part of that.

> How many people go to GenCon for three days? About 10,000? That would be a
> little under 30 people a day looking at their page for a year, which they
> can do for free. I'm sure they do more than that. For those who think that
> its silly to try to get people interested in a product through a web page
> and then sell them things, talk to Amazon.com. How many days did it take
> them to sell 900 hardbound editions of SR3 at GenCon? How many MINUTES did
> it take them to sell the last 100 online? The web is becoming a very
> effective way to sell products to consumers and avoiding the middleman of
> the distributor.

Say 10,000 people go to GenCon. That's a small fraction of the RPG hobby.
But how many of the retailers, who _are_ FASA's customers, go there? Damn
near all of them. And all of the retailers would read product reviews that
come out of GenCon, and probably get the advertising material as well.

As for Amazon.com... tell me more about it when they start making money.
Amazon.com is a very interesting experiment, but they lose money
hand-over-fist at the moment, and are only still in business because they
have the backing of people who are thinking long-term (plus enormous amounts
of cash donated by suckers in return for shares).

Look, I admit that a good web presence would be a good thing for FASA. But
good enough to divert resources away from other things, that are also good
for FASA? Maybe not. I don't know, I'm not the management of FASA who have
decided this, and have more information on the topic than you or me.

> >To quote Dvixen, who said it more aptly than you: Sheesh. Give the guys a
> >break. What do you want, good products OR a good web site?
> (Notice the lack
> >of an 'and')
>
> Like I said, I don't want to bust their chops. I'd like to offer criticism
> from a paying customer. Especially with some of that Microsoft Money (tm)
> that they got, they shouldn't have to pick between one or another.

You don't know what their balance sheet is, Sommers... for all you know,
that money is all that's keeping them solvent for a few months.

I found it interesting that you mention Steve Jackson games... the GURPS
line of products nearly went bust last year, and that's WHY they shifted to
the web-focus. They couldn't afford to maintain the traditional approach, so
they scrapped it, and adopted an approach they could afford. Not because it
would be better... but because they couldn't do anything else. Time will
show if it succeeds (my money says yes... but I wouldn't bet very highly on
it)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 36
From: Rori Steel cullyn@*****.com.au
Subject: FASA
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 04:06:24 +0000 (GMT)
Dvixen wrote:
>Mike is trying his best to keep updating the Shadowrun part of the site,
>but learning html is going to have to take a back seat to the job he gets
>*PAID* for every time. As for hiring someone to do the web site for them,
>that is a decision they will have to make, and no amount of whining on the
>fans part is going to make a damned bit of difference.

Ok.. looks like delurking is the go here. Whining from the people who
buy the product, should be the ABSOLUTE reason Fasa decides to fix ANY
problem. As it is with most businesses. (Eg. When all you make is
tomato sauce, and people are complaining about your tomato sauce, you
really should thing about CHANGING IT!)

>Summary of my post: GIVE IT A REST. If you have to complain about
>something, complain about the fact that you have so little of a life you
>have to complain how others run their company.

Now this got my hair up. The original posts, and some of the things
added, would be better classed as critisism. And as purchasers of the
Shadowrun product(s), they have a RIGHT to complain/critisize about
it. While reading the thread, i guess i was thinging "yeah. you have
got a point there." (as i would say most other de-lurkers have shown
as true also) so when Dvixen comes out with comments like "GIVE IT A
REST" i though, wrong, they should get off their asses and do
something. And then the comment about "so little of a life you have"
i though some quite unkind thoughts. There is no way in HELL i dont
have a life, and i'll be damned if i get told i dont have one simply
because you thing we shouldnt ask for better updates.

Cullyn
cullyn@*****.com.au
members.xoom.com/rori
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Message no. 37
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: FASA
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 14:15:42 +1000
Cullyn writes:
> Now this got my hair up. The original posts, and some of the things
> added, would be better classed as critisism. And as purchasers of the
> Shadowrun product(s), they have a RIGHT to complain/critisize about
> it. While reading the thread, i guess i was thinging "yeah. you have
> got a point there." (as i would say most other de-lurkers have shown
> as true also) so when Dvixen comes out with comments like "GIVE IT A
> REST" i though, wrong, they should get off their asses and do
> something. And then the comment about "so little of a life you have"
> i though some quite unkind thoughts. There is no way in HELL i dont
> have a life, and i'll be damned if i get told i dont have one simply
> because you thing we shouldnt ask for better updates.

This topic comes up every couple of months. That's what Dvixen meant by give
it a rest.

If you want FASA to have a web presence that badly, donate your time and
develop one for them.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 38
From: Rori Steel cullyn@*****.com.au
Subject: FASA
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 04:25:45 +0000 (GMT)
On Fri, 4 Jun 1999 14:15:42 +1000, you wrote:
>> something. And then the comment about "so little of a life you have"
>> i though some quite unkind thoughts. There is no way in HELL i dont
>> have a life, and i'll be damned if i get told i dont have one simply
>> because you thing we shouldnt ask for better updates.

>This topic comes up every couple of months. That's what Dvixen meant by give
>it a rest.
>If you want FASA to have a web presence that badly, donate your time and
>develop one for them.

Robert. I have no problem with giving it a rest, if the problem has
been shown to Fasa to exist. The bit about "no life", that has
nothing to do with getting fasa a website, or giving it a rest. Ive
been on this list for about 6 months now, and its the first time ive
seen this thread. I guess that could be said for some of the others
also. Its not in the Faq so dont expect everyone to read through all
the logs to not start up an old topic.

Also, if i had the information required to update the SR part of the
web site i would. This is not a threat, it would get done short of my
arms falling off. My details are in the .sig

Rori Steel
cullyn@*****.com.au
members.xoom.com/rori
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Message no. 39
From: gray_ghost007@*****.net gray_ghost007@*****.net
Subject: FASA
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 23:31:20 -0500 (CDT)
Robert writes:
Who pays FASA for their products? _RETAILERS_, not consumers. Why do
retailers purchases FASA products? Because FASA (and other sources)
convinces the retailers that people will buy those products.

No offense Robert but you seem to have little business experience.
Having owned my own business, currently managing one as we speak, and GM
for and gaming with local gaming store owners. The bottom line is you
stock what sells, not what companies tell you sells. What they say may
convince you to try them but if the product isn't finding it's way into
the hands of its consumers then it goes on the bargin table and is not
reordered.
As far as FASA's site, I'd rather them keep up the great work on their
products and I count myself lucky to be blessed with Shadowrun writers
on the list and all the great sites we do have that are produced by
dedicated Shadowruns lovers - Blackjack, Dvixen, and Deep Resonance just
to name a few. I think we've road this horse to the end of our journey.
Gray Ghost (Wesley Bond)

"Never retreat in battle,
"Never make an unjust kill." - Wonkang
Message no. 40
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: FASA
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 14:42:53 +1000
> Now this got my hair up. The original posts, and some of the things
> added, would be better classed as critisism. And as purchasers of the
> Shadowrun product(s), they have a RIGHT to complain/critisize about
> it. While reading the thread, i guess i was thinging "yeah. you have
> got a point there." (as i would say most other de-lurkers have shown
> as true also) so when Dvixen comes out with comments like "GIVE IT A
> REST" i though, wrong, they should get off their asses and do
> something. And then the comment about "so little of a life you have"
> i though some quite unkind thoughts. There is no way in HELL i dont
> have a life, and i'll be damned if i get told i dont have one simply
> because you thing we shouldnt ask for better updates.
>
> Cullyn
> cullyn@*****.com.au
> members.xoom.com/rori
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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> GB/GE d--/pu s++:+ a--/? C+++ UL+ P+ L+ E--- W++
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> RSR+>+++ tv- b+ DI++ D++ G+>+++++ e++ h--- r+++ y+++
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Y'kno I gotta agree wtih cullen here. I dont complain about fasa's site even
though I dont like how it is at the moment. If I said anything though it would
be criticism rather than whining. I hate whiners.. and I havent seen too much
whining on this list - yet. :)

Anyway, Just thought I'd voice agreement to what Cullen wrote.

GreyWolf

* Follow the yellow brick road, follow the yelow brick road, all the way to Ft.
Knox... *
Message no. 41
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: FASA
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 14:41:32 +1000
Gray Ghost writes:
> Robert writes:
> Who pays FASA for their products? _RETAILERS_, not consumers. Why do
> retailers purchases FASA products? Because FASA (and other sources)
> convinces the retailers that people will buy those products.
>
> No offense Robert but you seem to have little business experience.
> Having owned my own business, currently managing one as we speak, and GM
> for and gaming with local gaming store owners. The bottom line is you
> stock what sells, not what companies tell you sells. What they say may
> convince you to try them but if the product isn't finding it's way into
> the hands of its consumers then it goes on the bargin table and is not
> reordered.

But when you're buying new product, how do you know what will sells In many
cases, what stores stock is what the producers have convinced them (usually
indirectly, in terms of a good ad campaign, and previous sales figures) will
sell. Sure, FASA has to do work convincing consumers to buy their products
from the retailers, but that is only to support their main goal of
convincing retailers to buy the products from them.

That was my point.

> As far as FASA's site, I'd rather them keep up the great work on their
> products and I count myself lucky to be blessed with Shadowrun writers
> on the list and all the great sites we do have that are produced by
> dedicated Shadowruns lovers - Blackjack, Dvixen, and Deep Resonance just
> to name a few. I think we've road this horse to the end of our journey.

That's my basic attitude as well.

Robert.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 42
From: Rori Steel cullyn@*****.com.au
Subject: FASA
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 04:44:15 +0000 (GMT)
On Thu, 3 Jun 1999 23:31:20 -0500 (CDT), Grey Ghost wrote:
>As far as FASA's site, I'd rather them keep up the great work on their
>products and I count myself lucky to be blessed with Shadowrun writers
>on the list and all the great sites we do have that are produced by
>dedicated Shadowruns lovers - Blackjack, Dvixen, and Deep Resonance just
>to name a few.

Im with that. The product is awesome, and there are plenty of great
sites including those you named. In hindsight, i bet a few of the
regs have seen and heard this arguement too many times, im dropping
this now, and not participating in another one like it.

Just one suggestion. Something get written in the Faq (either that or
i need new glasses) so newbies aviod the wrath of the longer list
members.

>I think we've road this horse to the end of our journey.
>Gray Ghost (Wesley Bond)
>
>"Never retreat in battle,
>"Never make an unjust kill." - Wonkang

Cullyn
Message no. 43
From: gray_ghost007@*****.net gray_ghost007@*****.net
Subject: FASA
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 23:48:01 -0500 (CDT)
I forgot the :) at the end of my letter. Don't what to sound too pissy.

"Never retreat in battle,
"Never make an unjust kill." - Wonkang
Message no. 44
From: gray_ghost007@*****.net gray_ghost007@*****.net
Subject: FASA
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 23:52:29 -0500 (CDT)
You are correct sir (Robert). The initial investment is spawned by the
companies and thier campaigning efforts. Sorry, if I miss understood.
:) Gray Ghost

"Never retreat in battle,
"Never make an unjust kill." - Wonkang
Message no. 45
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: FASA
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 12:06:01 -0400
At 03.40 06-03-99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>are other ways to maintain a web presence. Pay an outside source <IE web
>developer> to make the pages. Provide them with the material and what they

Many "professional" "web developers" overcharfe thier customer and
overestimate thier abilities.

>Lets say that nets 1000 hits a day in that manner. Of thoes thousand hits
>lets say 20% purchase any fasa product. That is 200 people a day

It is probably more realistic to expact 20-25% of that, using the method
you've outlined. As for 20% makeing purchases, forget it. Try more like
1-2% making a purchase.

People on the web seem to forget that they are a clear minority. In the
US, only about 20-25% of the population has web access at home, with an
additional 10-15% having access through work or school only. Max number or
40% of the population. Now figure out what percentage of them roleplay.
How many of THOSE are willing to buy material unseen. Of those, how many
(a) have credit cards and (a2) trust the net enough to order online, or (b)
can talk thier parents into placing the order for them?
I'm not saying that the numbers are irrelevent, not by a long shot. I am
saying though, that a lot of people overestimate the amount of buisness a
company can do online with such a specialized product.


CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://www.Geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/4151/welcome.html
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
Message no. 46
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: FASA
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 11:54:37 -0400
This comment ias dirrected at no in particular, but people who want to see
FASA's online status change should consider something: If you don't like
how the current crew is doing the job, apply for it. Send them a NICE
letter of complaint offering a solution, and if you think that you may be
the solution, add a copy of your resume and a bid to get the contract.
And don't send it e-mail. Spend 40 cents on an envelope, stamp and paper.


CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://www.Geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/4151/welcome.html
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
Message no. 47
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: FASA
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 08:46:04 -0400
At 07:20 PM 6/3/99 , Robert Watkins wrote:
>Sommers writes:
>> That's just wrong. Ford's customers aren't their dealers, they are the
>> customers who buy the cars. FASA's customers aren't the game stores and
>> retailers, they are just the middlemen. If enough customers come into a
>> store and say that tehy want game X, I guarantee that that store will
>> either get it or lose customers.
>
>You've got the wrong business model.
>
>Who pays FASA for their products? _RETAILERS_, not consumers. Why do
>retailers purchases FASA products? Because FASA (and other sources)
>convinces the retailers that people will buy those products. There are lots
>of ways to convince those retailers of that, and a web presence for the
>consumers is only part of that.

Technically that's true. FASA's direct customers are the retailers, in the
same way that the car dealers are the car companies customers. They are the
ones who pay the money to FASA, or the car companies. But in both cases,
the retailer is going to be fairly well screwed if he doesn't have a
customer to sell the product to.

I've worked as a manager at a comic book store, which also sold gaming
products. We also talked to a lot of the other stores in the area. Sure we
listed to the companies for what they thought would sell, and what had the
best advertising. But usually the thing we listened to the most was the
customers. If we had a lot of people come in demanding a product line, we
got it in the store. If something sold out the month before, we ordered
more of it next time.

Ultimately the company making the product has to get it into the hands of
an end consumer. If all you do is try and sell it to the retailers without
generating any interest in the product, its not going to move well.
Advertising is important, and the Internet is part of that. But of the last
4 gaming stores I've been in around the US, I don't remember one of them
advertising for Shadowrun at all, and not too may for a particular game at
all, except Magic.

>> How many people go to GenCon for three days? About 10,000? That would be a
>> little under 30 people a day looking at their page for a year, which they
>> can do for free. I'm sure they do more than that. For those who think that
>> its silly to try to get people interested in a product through a web page
>> and then sell them things, talk to Amazon.com. How many days did it take
>> them to sell 900 hardbound editions of SR3 at GenCon? How many MINUTES did
>> it take them to sell the last 100 online? The web is becoming a very
>> effective way to sell products to consumers and avoiding the middleman of
>> the distributor.
>
>Say 10,000 people go to GenCon. That's a small fraction of the RPG hobby.
>But how many of the retailers, who _are_ FASA's customers, go there? Damn
>near all of them. And all of the retailers would read product reviews that
>come out of GenCon, and probably get the advertising material as well.

Yes, GenCon is a great way to reach all of the retailers. And convincing
them to stock the product is a good way to generate sales. But the other
part of that is getting the information out to the consumers, which doesn't
seem to have been done as well.

>As for Amazon.com... tell me more about it when they start making money.
>Amazon.com is a very interesting experiment, but they lose money
>hand-over-fist at the moment, and are only still in business because they
>have the backing of people who are thinking long-term (plus enormous amounts
>of cash donated by suckers in return for shares).

Yeah, I just saw that they posted a loss for the quarter of quite a few
million US. They have the benefit of being highly funded, so can afford to
take losses now to build up market share and sales volume. AOL and some of
the other biggies were like that at first too, and have recently begun to
make good profits. The point is to get to some minimum mass, and it takes a
few years.

The point is, they have made a big success so far just in the number of
books they sell every year without one retailer having to sell them on the
book. A person hears about it from a friend, or already knows what he's
looking for, goes in and buys it. Basically the same way that I buy my
Shadowrun books.

>Look, I admit that a good web presence would be a good thing for FASA. But
>good enough to divert resources away from other things, that are also good
>for FASA? Maybe not. I don't know, I'm not the management of FASA who have
>decided this, and have more information on the topic than you or me.

Yes the management has a lot more information than you or I. And I don't
want to see them divert resources from other things that produce the games
themselves. What I would like to see is some easy steps that could be taken
to enhance their site and support without the need for much diversion.

>You don't know what their balance sheet is, Sommers... for all you know,
>that money is all that's keeping them solvent for a few months.

That is entirely true. But from what I have read, the new Shadowrun line is
doing very well. They're solvent enough to buy Ral Partha (a very good
strategic move I thought) and to introduce 2 new product lines in one year.
And I read an interview with one of the head people there (can't remember
her name off hand) that talked about the FASA Interactive sale and the
money giving them the ability to do some more good stuff.

>I found it interesting that you mention Steve Jackson games... the GURPS
>line of products nearly went bust last year, and that's WHY they shifted to
>the web-focus. They couldn't afford to maintain the traditional approach, so
>they scrapped it, and adopted an approach they could afford. Not because it
>would be better... but because they couldn't do anything else. Time will
>show if it succeeds (my money says yes... but I wouldn't bet very highly on
>it)

FIrst I had heard of them almost goign bust last year, but with the state
of the industry in general the last few years I'm not surprised. I didn't
think that they had shifted their focus away from traditional retail
though. I see just as many GURPS products introduced in the stores now as I
did before. They did expand their possibilities of selling things on the
web, which allowed them to make smaller print runs and mae books they
wouldn't have otherwise. Russia was one. If they sell a book for $20 to a
customer on the web, they make a lot more than selling it for, say, $11 to
a retailer, and getiign the distributor involved, etc. With a better margin
you can afford a smaller print run.

I'd also like to point out that they have always had a very good idea of
how to use computers from way back when they had their own BBS. The Pyramid
online has about 3 or 4 times the number of subscribers it had when it was
on paper, and they have a stable built in playtesting audience too. Their
support is good, and always has been. I don't even play GURPS, but I've
seen items on their page that made me want to go out and get a book just
for the entertainment and research value.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 48
From: Kama kama@*******.net
Subject: FASA
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:52:03 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, IronRaven wrote:

> This comment ias dirrected at no in particular, but people who want to see
> FASA's online status change should consider something: If you don't like
> how the current crew is doing the job, apply for it. Send them a NICE
> letter of complaint offering a solution, and if you think that you may be
> the solution, add a copy of your resume and a bid to get the contract.
> And don't send it e-mail. Spend 40 cents on an envelope, stamp and paper.
>

I believe that numerous members of this list have offered to take over the
web page development and miantenance for FASA. Said members have either
been those who are professional empolyed in the area of web development or
those with professional quality web pages of thier own. To date, I have
heard of no such offer being accepted or even seriously considered.

I think that is part of the frustration. The fan web pages for Shadowrun
put the "official" web site to shame.

As for the web page not having a efffect on their profitability, I will
have to disagree. I have a group of web sites I check every morning for
any new developments or new information that is of interest. If I find
something I want on those pages, I note when it will be coming out and
usually pre-order it through the web if possible. FASA's website is no
longer on that "to check" list becuase experience had taught me that any
information I find there will be horribly out of date and incomplete. I do
nto pre-order items through FASA's for several reasons as well. First,
they do not take pre-orders. (I wish they would open up pre-ordering once
the book has gone to the printer. Second, I have never ordered anything
from FASA through thier web site and not had the order get messed up in
some way.

As a result, I do not keep up with the purchase of Shadowrun books nearly
as well as I keep up with the purchase of products from other lines. After
all, with SR books I have no idea when things will be coming out other
than following this list serve (which I am not doing as rabidly now that I
am busy house hunting) or simply walking into my game store and being
surprised (which is nice, but if they have sold out or haven't put it in a
visable location, I might very well miss a product all together.)

Kama
Keeper of the Dice Bag form Hell(tm)
Message no. 49
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: FASA
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 10:25:37 -0400
At 12:06 PM 6/3/99 , IronRaven wrote:
>At 03.40 06-03-99 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>are other ways to maintain a web presence. Pay an outside source <IE web
>>developer> to make the pages. Provide them with the material and what they
>
> Many "professional" "web developers" overcharfe thier customer
and
>overestimate thier abilities.

That is a problem. That also seems to be the problem with the company that
FASA has hired. Second hand stories I've read here indicate that the web
developer has problems updating things.

>>Lets say that nets 1000 hits a day in that manner. Of thoes thousand hits
>>lets say 20% purchase any fasa product. That is 200 people a day
>
> It is probably more realistic to expact 20-25% of that, using the method
>you've outlined. As for 20% makeing purchases, forget it. Try more like
>1-2% making a purchase.

Okay, lets say that there are 1000 hits in a day, and that 2% make a
purchase. That figures into 20 purchases a day. Times 365 days a year makes
7300 purchases a year. Let's assume that for every purcahse made, 2
sourcebooks are ordered (to make it worthwhile for the customer with
shiping) at a total of $30 US. That makes a grand total for sales of
$219000 US. Even if we say that we've doubled our estimation of how many
orders are placed, that comes to over $100000 US a year.

Don't forget, when FASA charges $15 for a sourcebook on the web, they get
that directly. If they sell that same book to the distributor, who sells it
to the retailer, who sells it to me at a 20% discount, FASA can't be
getting much more than $6-7 US each. So the profit margin for net sold
books is going to be higher for them, even after paying for the web
hardware. One of the reasons that Amazon.com is still leaking money is
because they sell most of their lead books at a 50% discount.

> People on the web seem to forget that they are a clear minority. In the
>US, only about 20-25% of the population has web access at home, with an
>additional 10-15% having access through work or school only. Max number or
>40% of the population. Now figure out what percentage of them roleplay.
>How many of THOSE are willing to buy material unseen. Of those, how many
>(a) have credit cards and (a2) trust the net enough to order online, or (b)
>can talk thier parents into placing the order for them?

That doesn't necessarily track. Your numbers for the amount of people is
the US on the internet is probably about right. I might even say that its a
point or two high. But what are the demographics of the group? One of the
largest groups in that 40% is 18-35 year old males. 12-18 year old males is
second I believe. What is the demographic focus of most role-playing games?
Probably 12-25 year old males. There's a lot of overlap there, which can
suggest that the target demographic of a role-palying game is much more
likely to have access to the web than other segments of the population.

Now if a web page is good, has a brief blurbs and maybe a sample chapter
about products that are coming out soon, and put out in a timely fashion,
the target group might be more excited about it. If the support looks good
for the game, with steady and ontime releases posted for public access, as
well as delays and changed ship dates posted right away, I'm more inclined
to check it out.

If I'm out buying a computer game, I shouldn't need any customer support on
their web site, access to new drivers and patches, and lists of known bugs.
But if I'm going to have it for any length of time, I'm definitley going to
be looking at those features to see if I'm going to get any support later
on down the line. Why should it be different for a role-playing company?

> I'm not saying that the numbers are irrelevent, not by a long shot. I am
>saying though, that a lot of people overestimate the amount of buisness a
>company can do online with such a specialized product.

There can be a tendency for people to overestimate online business and how
it can be utilized. But the same is also true the other way. And one of the
biggest bonuses of online systems is that they have low overhead. If you
rent out space on a web server, and don't go huge overboard on all of the
cool new tech, and concentrate on your content, you can have a very
effective web site for not a lot of money. Not having to deal with
distributors and retailers gives and edge to a small company that is
selling a niche product. That's one of the biggest strengths of the web.

Think about it. You have a relativley small group of people that are into a
hobby that requires a lot of thought, and purchase of actual books. Its
designed to bring small groups of similar types of people together, but
there tend to be very few large concentrations of people. The product is
also small enough to ship easily through UPS, FedEx, etc. And by
eliminating middlemen, it should be possible to hold prices at current
levels for at least the near future. Sounds almost custom made to an online
selling company.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 50
From: lomion lomion@*********.escnd1.sdca.home.com
Subject: FASA
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 08:48:23 -0700
At 12:06 PM 6/3/99 -0400, you wrote:
>At 03.40 06-03-99 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >are other ways to maintain a web presence. Pay an outside source <IE web
> >developer> to make the pages. Provide them with the material and what they
>
> Many "professional" "web developers" overcharfe thier
customer and
>overestimate thier abilities.

I'm curious where you got this from, are you a professional?


> People on the web seem to forget that they are a clear
> minority. In the
>US, only about 20-25% of the population has web access at home, with an
>additional 10-15% having access through work or school only. Max number or
>40% of the population. Now figure out what percentage of them roleplay.
>How many of THOSE are willing to buy material unseen. Of those, how many
>(a) have credit cards and (a2) trust the net enough to order online, or (b)
>can talk thier parents into placing the order for them?

Ecommerce was a very big deal last year and is rising. In fact all
statistics say that it's on the rise, and 40% of the US population numbers
in the millions. A company co do alot of business on the Internet. The
question is whether it's profitable, for most it is not right away, like
any business it needs time to grow. I deal with E-commerce sites every
day and as I said it's only growing.

--Larry
Message no. 51
From: Quindrael d.n.m.vannederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl
Subject: FASA
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 14:20:17 +0200
>After all, with SR books I have no idea when things will be coming out other
>than following this list serve (which I am not doing as rabidly now that I
>am busy house hunting) or simply walking into my game store and being
>surprised (which is nice, but if they have sold out or haven't put it in a
>visable location, I might very well miss a product all together.)

The last few months they have been updating the catalog very frequently.
OK, you still cannot pre-order, but as soon as something is out, they will
mention it (anybody any info on the corporate download yet?). And they
often have previews of books.

Maybe the "game support" page for SR is still not up (again), but at least
they inform you now what is out, what will be out and what has been
deleted. They even have a "going going gone" page which gives you an idea
of soon-out-of-print stuff.


VrGr David

This is not a signature, every mail I type it again.




From CraigL@********.co.za Mon,
Message no. 52
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: FASA
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 22:49:55 EDT
In a message dated 6/7/99 8:16:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
d.n.m.vannederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl writes:

> The last few months they have been updating the catalog very frequently.
> OK, you still cannot pre-order, but as soon as something is out, they will
> mention it (anybody any info on the corporate download yet?)

Supposed to ship to distributors last Friday(ish)
so, (in US of course) gamestores next week. Website around Wed probably (they
give Distributors a head start)




From sparrow@***.net.au Tue, 08 J
Message no. 53
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: FASA
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 22:23:33 -0500
> > (anybody any info on the corporate download yet?)
>
> Supposed to ship to distributors last Friday(ish)
> so, (in US of course) gamestores next week. Website around Wed
> probably (they give Distributors a head start)

It's available on their website right now. I'm curious to see it, since the
list's own Erik Jameson did most of the work on the entry for Novatech, as I
understand it. Having read some of his stuff, I'm curious to see what he
did with the place.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.






From Ereskanti@***.com Tue, 8 Jun
Message no. 54
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: FASA
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 00:12:40 EDT
In a message dated 6/7/1999 10:26:25 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
remo@***.net writes:

>
> It's available on their website right now. I'm curious to see it, since
the
> list's own Erik Jameson did most of the work on the entry for Novatech, as
I
> understand it. Having read some of his stuff, I'm curious to see what he
> did with the place.

Actually Patrick, a sizeable portion of the CD material is from people whom
either are current list members, or have been in the past...

-K




From iscottw@*****.nb.ca Tue, 08
Message no. 55
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: FASA
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 23:18:17 -0500
> > I'm curious to see it, since the
> > list's own Erik Jameson did most of the work on the entry for
> > Novatech, as I understand it. Having read some of his stuff,
> > I'm curious to see what he did with the place.
>
> Actually Patrick, a sizeable portion of the CD material is from
> people whom either are current list members, or have been in the past...

Truly? That's pretty cool. I knew Steve Kenson did some stuff, and I knew
about Erik's involvement, but I was unaware of other involvement beyond
possible play-testing.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.






From anders@**********.com Mon, 7
Message no. 56
From: Lady Jestyr jestyr@*********.html.com
Subject: FASA
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 16:44:55 +1000
From: Lady Jestyr jestyr@*********.html.com
Subject: FASA

>> > I'm curious to see it, since the
>> > list's own Erik Jameson did most of the work on the entry for
>> > Novatech, as I understand it. Having read some of his stuff,
>> > I'm curious to see what he did with the place.
>>
>> Actually Patrick, a sizeable portion of the CD material is from
>> people whom either are current list members, or have been in the past...
>
>Truly? That's pretty cool. I knew Steve Kenson did some stuff, and I knew
>about Erik's involvement, but I was unaware of other involvement beyond
>possible play-testing.

Ah, you'd be surprised. :-)

Lady Jestyr

Work like you don't need the money. | It might look like I'm doing
Love like you've never been hurt. | nothing, but at the cellular
Dance like nobody's watching. | level I'm really quite busy.

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr *




From robert.watkins@******.com Tue,
Message no. 57
From: Quindrael D.N.M.vanNederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl
Subject: FASA
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 12:41:08 +0200
From: Quindrael D.N.M.vanNederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl
Subject: FASA

>Let me begin this by saying I love FASA. Shadowrun is practically the only
>game I still play because I can't swallow the other rule systems.
>
>Now, with that out to the way.
>Say I'm a gamer who has never played anything but D&D and Magic. I look at
>White Wolf's site, Pinnacle's site and Steve Jackson Games site, then turn
>my eyes on fasa.com.
>
>It sucks by comparison. I wouldn't even consider looking into their games.
> I would take one look at fasa.com and say: "Wow, their products must
>really be disorganized and poorly crafted".

I totally disagree. This is the look of someone who has been following
their site for years and is disappointed by the lack of refreshment. If
someone new was to hit their site, he would get a clear overview of all the
books available for Shadowrun, with the covers, and many previews.
Also, I'm not a Battletech player, but I think their Battletech pages have
even more. And that's thier main product, remember. If they put some time
in webpresence, that's the first you're gonna see it. Shadowrun gets the
spare time.

If you want a site that has become cluttered and disorganized throught the
years, it's White Wolf's. OK, they have more on it, but even I sometimes
can't find a thing anymore, their catalog was unavailable for a long time,
and they almost never make their promises true (next week... biweekly
updates....every day a new charactersheet... look here in a few days
(standing there for three months!) etc. etc.). I like their site, but it
isn't organized.

VrGr David

"Sobald der Mensch in der Lage ist künstliches Leben zu erzeugen,
ist die Theorie von Gott hinfällig."
(In Strict Confidence - CD-booklet of Cryogenix)

mailto:alamais@***.nl for regular mail
mailto:D.N.M.vanNederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl if your mail has any large
attachments




From Paul@********.demon.co.uk Tue, 8 J
Message no. 58
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: FASA
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 06:55:46 -0500
> >Truly? That's pretty cool. I knew Steve Kenson did some stuff, and I
> >knew about Erik's involvement, but I was unaware of other involvement
> >beyond possible play-testing.
>
> Ah, you'd be surprised. :-)

In general, I don't like surprises, either. Maybe I'll make an exception
for this one.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.






From gordmeister@***********.ie Tue, 08
Message no. 59
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Mr Beren)
Subject: FASA
Date: Thu Feb 8 15:25:02 2001
I heard a really scary rumor today: Is it true that FASA (or the new owner)
won't publish any new SR-stuff?
-- Beren

--
Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net
Message no. 60
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Kevin Harrison)
Subject: FASA
Date: Thu Feb 8 18:50:05 2001
On Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:25:20 +0100, Mr Beren wrote:

>I heard a really scary rumor today: Is it true that FASA (or the new owner)
>won't publish any new SR-stuff?
> -- Beren

Sorry friend, that's the honest truth. After April, FASA quits publishing
period. BattleTech and SR have been picked up by a company called
WizKids, but no news yet what they're going to do with them. So, whatever
comes off the printers before May is the last FASA books to see print.
--
Kevin Harrison <kevin.harrison@***.net>
Message no. 61
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Adam J)
Subject: FASA
Date: Thu Feb 8 20:00:01 2001
At 21:25 08/02/2001 +0100, Mr Beren wrote:
>I heard a really scary rumor today: Is it true that FASA (or the new owner)
>won't publish any new SR-stuff?

FASA certainly won't, since they're closing. The new owners haven't decided
if they will yet.

http://www.dumpshock.com/FASA-FAQ.html#2.1

Adam
--
< http://tss.dumpshock.com : http://www.jillted.org >
< adamj@*********.com | ICQ# 2350330 | TSS Productions >
Message no. 62
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Simon and Fiona)
Subject: FASA
Date: Thu Feb 8 23:05:01 2001
-----Original Message-----
From: Adam J <adamj@*********.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Friday, February 09, 2001 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: FASA


>At 21:25 08/02/2001 +0100, Mr Beren wrote:
> >I heard a really scary rumor today: Is it true that FASA (or the new
owner)
> >won't publish any new SR-stuff?
>
>FASA certainly won't, since they're closing. The new owners haven't decided
>if they will yet.
>
This is the curse of the Australia sourcebook at work, I'm telling you. Any
time it comes close that an Oz sourcebook will come out, something happens
to prevent it. Once there was a big Australian RPG magazine that printed out
all the relevant info on Australia (missed most of it myself), and FASA was
going to make it canon, a la the Germany sourcebook. Soon after, the
magazine folded. I don't know what happened the other time, but now FASA
itself has caved in. Maybe the idea should be dropped before the world ends.
Message no. 63
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Nexx)
Subject: FASA
Date: Thu Feb 8 23:10:00 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "Simon and Fiona"

> This is the curse of the Australia sourcebook at work, I'm telling you.
Any
> time it comes close that an Oz sourcebook will come out, something happens
> to prevent it. Once there was a big Australian RPG magazine that printed
out
> all the relevant info on Australia (missed most of it myself), and FASA
was
> going to make it canon, a la the Germany sourcebook. Soon after, the
> magazine folded. I don't know what happened the other time, but now FASA
> itself has caved in. Maybe the idea should be dropped before the world
ends.

Bah... its not like Australians are real, anyway. They're imaginary, like
elves and Eskimos.

-Nexx von Springfield
Message no. 64
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: FASA
Date: Thu Feb 8 23:20:12 2001
On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:02:43 +1100 "Simon and Fiona"
<sfuller@******.com.au> writes:
> This is the curse of the Australia sourcebook at work, I'm telling
> you. Any
> time it comes close that an Oz sourcebook will come out, something
> happens
> to prevent it. Once there was a big Australian RPG magazine that
> printed out
> all the relevant info on Australia (missed most of it myself), and
> FASA was
> going to make it canon, a la the Germany sourcebook. Soon after, the
> magazine folded. I don't know what happened the other time, but now
> FASA
> itself has caved in. Maybe the idea should be dropped before the
> world ends.
>
>

Nyah, everyone knows that the Rigger book marks the end of an edition.
The other times, there was one to replace it....

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 65
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Shane Hyde)
Subject: FASA
Date: Thu Feb 8 23:45:01 2001
> This is the curse of the Australia sourcebook at work, I'm telling you.
Any
> time it comes close that an Oz sourcebook will come out, something
happens
> to prevent it. Once there was a big Australian RPG magazine that printed
out
> all the relevant info on Australia (missed most of it myself), and FASA
was
> going to make it canon, a la the Germany sourcebook. Soon after, the
> magazine folded. I don't know what happened the other time, but now FASA
> itself has caved in. Maybe the idea should be dropped before the world
ends.

Perhaps a whole lot of us should get together and write an Australia/New
Zealand sourcebook together... Then maybe we could get it introduced as
Canon when Whizkids take a look at it.

Just a thought. Who's interested?

Shane
Message no. 66
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Burke, Tim)
Subject: FASA
Date: Fri Feb 9 01:05:01 2001
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****************************************************************
>Bah... its not like Australians are real, anyway. They're imaginary, like
>elves and Eskimos.
>
>-Nexx von Springfield

Welcome to your nightmare.....

<Australian and very much real>

***********************************************
Manx // timburke@******.net.au // #950
"The problem with the world is that
everyone's a few drinks behind."
- Humphrey Bogart
***********************************************
Message no. 67
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Nexx)
Subject: FASA
Date: Fri Feb 9 01:10:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "Burke, Tim"

> >Bah... its not like Australians are real, anyway. They're imaginary,
like
> >elves and Eskimos.
> >
> >-Nexx von Springfield
>
> Welcome to your nightmare.....
>
> <Australian and very much real>

::chuckle:: I was wondering which of our Aussie's would be the first to
jump on me for that one. ;-) In case you're wondering, its a garbled
Simpson's quote... I can't remember precisely what Homer says, but he
basically says, "Oh, Lisa, xxxx aren't real. They're imaginary, like elves
and Eskimos."
Message no. 68
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wordman)
Subject: FASA
Date: Fri Feb 9 09:55:00 2001
> ::chuckle:: I was wondering which of our Aussie's would be the first to
> jump on me for that one. ;-) In case you're wondering, its a garbled
> Simpson's quote... I can't remember precisely what Homer says, but he
> basically says, "Oh, Lisa, xxxx aren't real. They're imaginary,
> like elves and Eskimos."

I think "xxxx" was "vampires". Wasn't that a Halloween episode when
Mr.
Burns was a vampire?
Message no. 69
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Adam J)
Subject: FASA
Date: Fri Feb 9 10:45:01 2001
At 17:44 09/02/2001 +1300, Shane Hyde wrote:

>Perhaps a whole lot of us should get together and write an Australia/New
>Zealand sourcebook together... Then maybe we could get it introduced as
>Canon when Whizkids take a look at it.
>
>Just a thought. Who's interested?

Target: Awakened lands is written, but not yet published, and covers Australia.

Adam
--
< http://tss.dumpshock.com : http://www.jillted.org >
< adamj@*********.com | ICQ# 2350330 | TSS Productions >
Message no. 70
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: FASA
Date: Fri Feb 9 13:15:14 2001
In a message dated 2/9/01 10:47:56 AM, Kevin Harrison
<kevin.harrison@***.net> writes:
>Sorry friend, that's the honest truth. After April, FASA quits publishing
>period. BattleTech and SR have been picked up by a company called
>WizKids, but no news yet what they're going to do with them. So, whatever
>comes off the printers before May is the last FASA books to see print.

Rigger 3 is the last Shadowrun book FASA will publish. The only exception is
the remaining two SR novels (mine and Mike Mulvihill's) which are still
coming out from Roc this year. Everything after that (both game product and
novels) is mere speculation at this point. FASA is remaining open until April
to ship existing product orders, but production has already halted and there
will be no more new material as of now.

Steve Kenson

Talon Studio
http://members.aol.com/talonmail
Message no. 71
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Nexx)
Subject: FASA
Date: Fri Feb 9 14:40:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wordman"


> > ::chuckle:: I was wondering which of our Aussie's would be the first to
> > jump on me for that one. ;-) In case you're wondering, its a garbled
> > Simpson's quote... I can't remember precisely what Homer says, but he
> > basically says, "Oh, Lisa, xxxx aren't real. They're imaginary,
> > like elves and Eskimos."
>
> I think "xxxx" was "vampires". Wasn't that a Halloween episode
when Mr.
> Burns was a vampire?

Sounds right.
Message no. 72
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Shane/Eleanor/Amy)
Subject: FASA
Date: Fri Feb 9 20:20:01 2001
>Perhaps a whole lot of us should get together and write an Australia/New
>Zealand sourcebook together... Then maybe we could get it introduced as
>Canon when Whizkids take a look at it.
>Just a thought. Who's interested?

Target: Awakened lands is written, but not yet published, and covers
Australia.


Ah, but it doesn't cover New Zealand, which is a much cooler place...
especially in the awakened world

Shane
Message no. 73
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lady Jestyr)
Subject: FASA
Date: Mon Feb 12 09:35:01 2001
At 12:02 PM 9/02/01 +1100, Simon and Fiona wrote:

>>FASA certainly won't, since they're closing. The new owners haven't decided
>>if they will yet.
>>
>This is the curse of the Australia sourcebook at work, I'm telling you. Any
>time it comes close that an Oz sourcebook will come out, something happens
>to prevent it. Once there was a big Australian RPG magazine that printed out
>all the relevant info on Australia (missed most of it myself), and FASA was
>going to make it canon, a la the Germany sourcebook. Soon after, the
>magazine folded. I don't know what happened the other time, but now FASA
>itself has caved in. Maybe the idea should be dropped before the world ends.

Think how us authors feel. That's the one project that got me into writing
in the first place - I desperately wanted to write Australia for Shadowrun,
and it encouraged me to start looking at my options. A couple of years
after starting, I finally got to work on my dream contract - my share was
all finished and submitted months ago - and now this.

Well, that'll learn me for being enthusiastic, I guess! :-)

Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://staff.dumpshock.com/jestyr *

Further Reading

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Thwap!