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Message no. 1
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Fasa appreciates their own magic? (Was: Re: Our SR - Reply)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 1994 09:29:01 +1000
Luke> You misunderstand. When I say that FASA don't understand the power
Luke> of mages, I mean that their modules are often destroyed by the
Luke> intelligent application of their own magic rules [...]

Rat> The excuse is that mages are supposed to be rare, and finding the right
rat> type of mage can be difficult, if not impossible.

I know. But since it doesn't match the character creation rules, and
since the usefulness of having just one (maybe two) mages available for
hire for the whole of Seattle - say to city officials, or Corps - is so
mind-bogglingly advantageous, that this rationalisation just doesn't work.
The more you think about it, the sillier it seems.

I mean, how much would a Corp be prepared to pay, to have their top
scientist or CEO Healed back from death? Or their top-secret billion-nuyen
research material traced and recovered? Or, or, or. The list is endless,
the incentive for one or two mages to go for the money, overwhelming.

I stand behind my earlier statements.

luke
Message no. 2
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fasa appreciates their own magic? (Was: Re: Our SR - Reply)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 1994 19:54:37 -0400
>>>>> "Luke" == Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
writes:

Luke> I know. But since it doesn't match the character creation rules,

Ah! but the character creation rules don't accurately depict the normal
spread of the population. While roughly 1 out of 5 shadowrunners are
magically active, the actual spread is something like 1 in several thousand
or so. And of that, few have the training to actually use their talent to
the fullest potential. Many never even know they have the talent.

Luke> and since the usefulness of having just one (maybe two) mages
Luke> available for hire for the whole of Seattle - say to city officials,
Luke> or Corps - is so mind-bogglingly advantageous, that this
Luke> rationalisation just doesn't work.

That's assuming the one or two mages are /exactly/ wat you need. If
Seattle's one pet mage happens to be on the lines of the detective-mage
architype, he's going to have a really hard time dealing with spirits.
Adding a shaman will drastically increase their overall coverage, but even
then there are quite a few areas that they won't be able to cover.

Now, may corps do have their own pet mages on salary. But they command the
highest salaries, much higher than Seattle could afford.

Luke> The more you think about it, the sillier it seems.

The more I think about it, the more I think many people belive that there
are far more mages than there really are.

Luke> I mean, how much would a Corp be prepared to pay, to have their top
Luke> scientist or CEO Healed back from death?

Ressurection isn't an option in Shadowrun. But a "pet mage" is going to
draw a salary that rivals the highest level execs in that company.

Luke> Or their top-secret billion-nuyen research material traced and
Luke> recovered? Or, or, or. The list is endless, the incentive for one or
Luke> two mages to go for the money, overwhelming.

Again, though, assuming you can a) find a mage for hire, and b) he has the
exact talents desired.

Luke> I stand behind my earlier statements.

And I disagree.

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== Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox ==
== Democracy is four wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. ==
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Message no. 3
From: "David L. Hoff" <DLHOFF@****.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fasa appreciates their own magic? (Was: Re: Our SR - Reply)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 1994 19:37:00 CDT
You (meaning Luke and Rat) have forgotten one major thing: There are now
universities that offer a _Major_ in magic! I would assume that there must
be a fair amount of potential mages out there for the Big U's to offer a
major, let alone classes for magic.

And, on that note, corps could get mages on the payroll _very_ easily and
_very_ cheap. Just give some promising magic student a full scholarship to
the university of his/her choice, and require that they sign an employment
contract upon completion. I would think their would be quite a few mages
who would jump at the chance; I mean, a four year college now can cost 10000
a year, and I don't think it will be any cheaper in the 2050's.

So, for an investment of about 50000 in college costs, a corp could have a
mage on the payroll with a contract for a reasonable salary.

--Dave
dlhoff@****.wisc.edu
Message no. 4
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fasa appreciates their own magic? (Was: Re: Our SR - Reply)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 1994 20:51:29 -0400
>>>>> "David" == David L Hoff <DLHOFF@****.WISC.EDU>
writes:

David> You (meaning Luke and Rat) have forgotten one major thing: There are
David> now universities that offer a _Major_ in magic!

Two that I know of: Texas A&M&M, and MIT&M. Both of which require more than
just natural talent to get in (like the valedictorian of the class that
graduated from high school the year before I did; class president, field
hocky, track, you name it, she did it. MIT turned her down, "not enough
extra-curricular activities"). Getting into MIT is anything but easy.

David> I would assume that there must be a fair amount of potential mages
David> out there for the Big U's to offer a major, let alone classes for
David> magic.

Never assume. MIT has "majors" with around 15 total students. And that's
not counting the "independant studies."

David> And, on that note, corps could get mages on the payroll _very_
David> easily and _very_ cheap.

Yes on the first, no way on the second. Pet mages are expensive because
they can get away with charging exhorbitant sums.

David> Just give some promising magic student a full scholarship to the
David> university of his/her choice, and require that they sign an
David> employment contract upon completion.

Now that's the trick, getting them to sign /before/ they go to school.
Really difficult given the media hype behind pet-mage salaries.

David> I would think their would be quite a few mages who would jump at the
David> chance; I mean, a four year college now can cost 10000 a year, and I
David> don't think it will be any cheaper in the 2050's.

You're off on your prices by a multiple of 10. Northeastern University and
Harvard are around 100K for a four (or five) year degree. MIT is in that
price range, too.

David> So, for an investment of about 50000 in college costs, a corp could
David> have a mage on the payroll with a contract for a reasonable salary.

Again, money isn't the only way into MIT. If they don't want you, they
don't get you.

\||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||/
== Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox ==
== Carpe Joltem! (Seize the Caffeine) --Me ==
/||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||\
Message no. 5
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Fasa appreciates their own magic? (Was: Re: Our SR - Reply)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 1994 18:22:40 -0700
On Thu, 2 Jun 1994, Luke Kendall wrote:

> Luke> You misunderstand. When I say that FASA don't understand the power
> Luke> of mages, I mean that their modules are often destroyed by the
> Luke> intelligent application of their own magic rules [...]
>
> Rat> The excuse is that mages are supposed to be rare, and finding the right
> rat> type of mage can be difficult, if not impossible.
>
> I know. But since it doesn't match the character creation rules, and
> since the usefulness of having just one (maybe two) mages available for
> hire for the whole of Seattle - say to city officials, or Corps - is so
> mind-bogglingly advantageous, that this rationalisation just doesn't work.
> The more you think about it, the sillier it seems.
>
> I mean, how much would a Corp be prepared to pay, to have their top
> scientist or CEO Healed back from death? Or their top-secret billion-nuyen
> research material traced and recovered? Or, or, or. The list is endless,
> the incentive for one or two mages to go for the money, overwhelming.
>
> I stand behind my earlier statements.
>
> luke
>
Actually, mages aren't that rare anyway. At one in a thousand you'd have
about three to three and a half thousand of them in Seattle alone. And
according to the buzz in the later modules the number of mages to
mundanes is increasing.
The Corps do pay, and pay well, for mages to work for them. The problem
isn't with the system, it's with the module writers and the GMs.
Everyone should expect magic to be used, and used competently. Just
gotta deal with it. The rules make it easy to deal with mages, really.
Just read 'em carefully, and always go for the tightest interpretation.
Ivy
Message no. 6
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fasa appreciates their own magic? (Was: Re: Our SR - Reply)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 1994 23:47:04 -0500
> You (meaning Luke and Rat) have forgotten one major thing: There
> are now universities that offer a _Major_ in magic! I would assume
> that there must

But that doesn't mean that those that major in it are magically active.

Most likely, the people are just learning about it.

Mundanes can learn all the stuff too...

(Of course, I also put the magically active population at about 1%.
It may be high. Oh well).

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 7
From: Chris Lubrecht <lubrecht@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fasa appreciates their own magic? (Was: Re: Our SR - Reply)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 1994 08:05:13 -0400
Hold on, wait a min,.....
Just because a university offers degree's in magic does not mean there
are lot's and lot's of magicly active people. Let's face it, magic is a
cool thing, with probably many wannabe's. Non MA people will take the
major thinking they will become mages. The university won't stop them
because it gets more money out of the deal when the idiot wannabe finds
he can't use it, and has to take another major. The thing about the
corps funding college edu. is good, sorta like the Army\doctor thing.

Nigel

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