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Message no. 1
From: "Jason I. Gonding" <templar@****.NET>
Subject: FASA & editors
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 00:33:58 -0400
Hi all,
Is it just me or does FASA not employ editors? I ask because I've
run up against several glaring grammatical errors & one serious F*&k-up
in Bloodsport - namely Smedman calling the CAS the Canadian American
States.

I guess that FASA is just lucky that they've got good wirters like
Stackpole who can check their own work when churning out fiction for us.

And before you say it, I've given up on Bloodsport. I was only
reading it to get BG info on Azatlan, but it's too painful to continue.
In fact, Smedman is shaping up to be my least fav author, even outdoing
the Wonder Twins.

--
**************************Sic Semper Tyranids!************************
Jason I. Gonding <templar@****.net>
White Dwarf / The Citadel Journal Index
<http://www.cs.odu.edu/~gonding/index.html>;
Home Page <http://www.cs.odu.edu/~gonding/home.html>;
*******************************************************************
Message no. 2
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:43:19 -0500
On Mon, 12 Oct 1998 00:33:58 -0400 "Jason I. Gonding" <templar@****.NET>
writes:
>Hi all,
> Is it just me or does FASA not employ editors? I ask because I've
>run up against several glaring grammatical errors & one serious F*&k-up
>in Bloodsport - namely Smedman calling the CAS the Canadian American
>States.

Are you sure he wasn't referring to the United Canadian American States?
Not having read the novel, I wouldn't know.

> I guess that FASA is just lucky that they've got good wirters like
>Stackpole who can check their own work when churning out fiction for us.
>
> And before you say it, I've given up on Bloodsport. I was only
>reading it to get BG info on Azatlan, but it's too painful to continue.
>In fact, Smedman is shaping up to be my least fav author, even outdoing
>the Wonder Twins.

Donna Ippolito Edited Technobabel so I'd say yes, FASA does employ
editors. Check the page with all the credits/legal info to see who
edited Bloodsport. And who, btw, are the wonder twins?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid

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Message no. 3
From: "Frank Pelletier (Trinity)" <fpelletier@******.USHERB.CA>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 05:37:54 -0400
Jason I. Gonding <templar@****.NET> once wrote,

> And before you say it, I've given up on Bloodsport. I was only
>reading it to get BG info on Azatlan, but it's too painful to continue.
>In fact, Smedman is shaping up to be my least fav author, even outdoing
>the Wonder Twins.


The Wonder Twins?

And, by the way...you've probably never read Shadowboxer. :)

Trinity
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, fpelletier@******.usherb.ca
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"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" - M. Gandhi
Message no. 4
From: Adam J <adamj@*********.HTML.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 03:56:40 -0600
At 05:37 10/12/98 -0400, Frank Pelletier (Trinity) wrote:

>>In fact, Smedman is shaping up to be my least fav author, even outdoing
>>the Wonder Twins.
>
>
>The Wonder Twins?

I assume Carl Sargent and Marc Gasgonie(SP?)

-Adam
Message no. 5
From: Shawn McCollum <Shawn_McCollum@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:16:43 -0400
Jason I. Gonding wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> Is it just me or does FASA not employ editors? I ask because I've
> run up against several glaring grammatical errors & one serious F*&k-up
> in Bloodsport - namely Smedman calling the CAS the Canadian American
> States.
>
> I guess that FASA is just lucky that they've got good wirters like
> Stackpole who can check their own work when churning out fiction for us.
>
> And before you say it, I've given up on Bloodsport. I was only
> reading it to get BG info on Azatlan, but it's too painful to continue.
> In fact, Smedman is shaping up to be my least fav author, even outdoing
> the Wonder Twins.
>

Same thing for me about the BG info. I got bored and stopped reading
it.
What really turned me of the was the constant "It didn't seem important
then but later it did" type paragraphs at the end of every chapter. I
am
not a english major by any means but I think the problem was that the
rest of the book was written in a present tense, but those paragraphs
were
written in a past tense form. I sure wish that Nigel was still around
to
have written a book that took place there, he did a wonderful job with
the
sourcebook.

Shawn McCollum
Message no. 6
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 15:25:11 EDT
In a message dated 10/11/1998 11:49:53 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.COM writes:

> > And before you say it, I've given up on Bloodsport. I was only
> >reading it to get BG info on Azatlan, but it's too painful to continue.
> >In fact, Smedman is shaping up to be my least fav author, even outdoing
> >the Wonder Twins.
>
> Donna Ippolito Edited Technobabel so I'd say yes, FASA does employ
> editors. Check the page with all the credits/legal info to see who
> edited Bloodsport. And who, btw, are the wonder twins?

Donna Ippolito ... ah what a name to recall readily. And the Wonder Twins???
Wasn't that "Zan and Jana" from the Legion of Super Heroes, the original
Junior Legionaires??? ;p

-K
Message no. 7
From: Sean Matheis <sean@****.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:33:38 -0700
On 12 Oct 98, at 15:25, Ryo-ohki observed K in the Shadows saying:

> In a message dated 10/11/1998 11:49:53 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> dghost@****.COM writes:
> > Donna Ippolito Edited Technobabel so I'd say yes, FASA does employ
> > editors. Check the page with all the credits/legal info to see who
> > edited Bloodsport. And who, btw, are the wonder twins?
>
> Donna Ippolito ... ah what a name to recall readily. And the Wonder
> Twins??? Wasn't that "Zan and Jana" from the Legion of Super Heroes, the
> original Junior Legionaires??? ;p

Yes, that was the "Wonder Twins (Powers Activate!)". And, just for the
record, Donna Ippolito was also "Senior Editor" for Bloodsport.

Heck, I found a bunch of obvious editing errors in "Technobabel". My
favorite one was the misprint of a date for one of the chapter opening
quotes... dated 30xx, instead of 20xx.

-Sean

-Fieran, "Dances with Bears" Follower of the Invisible Path
**sean<at>slip.net**http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun**
Message no. 8
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 14:28:37 -0500
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Date: Monday, October 12, 1998 2:25 PM

>And the Wonder Twins???
>Wasn't that "Zan and Jana" from the Legion of Super Heroes, the original
>Junior Legionaires??? ;p

Zam and Jana didn't appear in LEGION; they were the replacements for Wendy
and Marvin on the Saturday morning SUPER FRIENDS. And how pathetic is it
that I remember this so readily...?

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 9
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:26:36 -0400
At 12:33 AM 10-12-98 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi all,
> Is it just me or does FASA not employ editors? I ask because I've
>run up against several glaring grammatical errors & one serious F*&k-up
>in Bloodsport - namely Smedman calling the CAS the Canadian American
>States.
>--
>Jason I. Gonding <templar@****.net>

Bear in mind that "editor" in professional publishing is not always the
same as "proofreader." (I am not involved in the publishing profession, so
forgive me if my details are off.) AFAIK, when a rough draft of a novel
comes in an editor will review it, but they're usually looking with an eye
towards things like overall content and length of the work. Galley copies
are made up, and the editor will make some notes on it along the lines of
"cut this" and "use different language here." Presumably in FASA's
case,
some small attempt is made to maintain continuity as well (i.e., "don't
mention that, we're doing it in another book"). Then it's left to the
writer to go back, proof the work, and reconcile their version with what
the editor wants. The writer sends back the revised work, and the
publisher takes it from there.

Even novels from major publishers can have leftover typos in them; I caught
one or two in Clancy's last book, "Rainbow Six." So if a major publisher
like Putnam can't completely proof a given mega-seller like Clancy, how
much worse is it going to be with a small-scale operation like the FASA
novels?

Oh, and a "Senior Editor" probably never even sees the book. That kind of
job is usually just overseeing the other editors and setting guidelines for
the entire product line. Although I suppose the specifics of the job would
depend on the company.

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 10
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:51:37 -0400
Starjammer wrote:
>
> Bear in mind that "editor" in professional publishing is not always the
> same as "proofreader."

It is, however, one of the editor's responsibilities. If the editor
doesn't take the time herself, she'll typically send it out to a
copyeditor, either in-house or freelance.

The fact that FASA doesn't seem to do this is probably indicative of their
finances, but it also says something about their professional standards.
Top-quality freelance copyeditors charge around $2-$3 per page; the few
hundred dollars it would cost to get a novel copyedited *should* be
considered a necessary part of the novel's production budget. By not
doing it, they probably harm themselves in reputation much more than
they're aware.


> Oh, and a "Senior Editor" probably never even sees the book. That kind of
> job is usually just overseeing the other editors and setting guidelines for
> the entire product line. Although I suppose the specifics of the job would
> depend on the company.

It does, but saying a Senior Editor wouldn't *see* the book is probably
overstating the case. I think at most publishers, the Senior Editors are
the ones who actually say "Yes, we'll buy this book," based on the prior
recommendations of the Assistant Editors who've been dredging through the
slush pile. Then they'll hand the book off again to a lower-echelon
editor to actually oversee the production. They'll review the process at
intermittent points along the way. Some companies have a number of Senior
Editors, depending on the size of their product line; and some of those
Senior Editors may have authority over others.

That's how it works at the Big Name Publishers; at smaller places like
FASA it's probably a lot less organized. (I'm thinking of Tor in
particular; I just finished spending a week with Patrick Nielsen Hayden,
the Senior Editor on top of their whole SF/fantasy line, so my head is way
too full of this stuff.) >8->


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 11
From: Jennifer Baker <Oxyria@***.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 19:12:09 EDT
In a message dated 98-10-12 17:28:10 EDT, you write:

<< >Hi all,
> Is it just me or does FASA not employ editors? I ask because I've
>run up against several glaring grammatical errors & one serious F*&k-up
>in Bloodsport - namely Smedman calling the CAS the Canadian American
>States.
>--
>Jason I. Gonding <templar@****.net>
>>

I worked in a small press for quite a while and every book we published was
read over by at least 6 different people for copy-editing. We would sit
around and argue obscure grammatical rules over one sentence for an hour.
After marking it all up, we'd let the writer revise as she wished, then we
would do the final copy... and believe me, after reading the same 300 pages
for the nth time, you miss the small errors (we'd still find spelling or
punctuation errors in our pre-press copies). We were a small press, though,
so each of us saw the book through the entire process, and the final product
was as humanly close to correct as we could manage. Larger presses can't do
that... but they do print second and third runs, and if you see an error and
point it out, it'll generally get corrected.

Jennie
Message no. 12
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:38:25 -0400
Quoting Starjammer (starjammer@**********.COM):
> Bear in mind that "editor" in professional publishing is not always the
> same as "proofreader." (I am not involved in the publishing profession, so
> forgive me if my details are off.) AFAIK, when a rough draft of a novel
> comes in an editor will review it, but they're usually looking with an eye
> towards things like overall content and length of the work.
[Snip]
> Oh, and a "Senior Editor" probably never even sees the book. That kind of
> job is usually just overseeing the other editors and setting guidelines for
> the entire product line. Although I suppose the specifics of the job would
> depend on the company.

My understanding is that assistant or associate editors do the first
round of evaluations on submissions. Those manuscripts that pass that filter
(or avoid it, thanks to a solid reputation on the part of the author or their
agent) are read by a senior editor, who actually has the power to decide
whether or not a book is worth publishing. If they approve it, some sort of
contract is arranged. Once the author has a complete manuscript, it goes to
a copy editor, who reads for continuity and related issues as well as
proofing for typographical errors (though the proofing could possibly be
handed off to an intern of some sort, depending on the house).
Steve, you were just at a writer's conference with some publishing
folks...want to correct my mistakes and give some better detail? :)

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 13
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 20:34:57 EDT
In a message dated 10/12/98 7:16:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Shawn_McCollum@*********.COM writes:

>
> Same thing for me about the BG info. I got bored and stopped reading
> it.
> What really turned me of the was the constant "It didn't seem important
> then but later it did" type paragraphs at the end of every chapter.
I read the whole book, and liked it over all, except for the part you mention
at the end of almost every chapter. I also liked her other two, though I had
problems with each, but I usually have problems of one sort or another, so no
big deal. It comes down to personal preference, I personally cannot stand (and
will never buy again) Nyx Smith stuff, but I have heard of people that do like
him.
Such is how the Fates have willed it.
Message no. 14
From: Iridios <iridios@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 20:45:49 -0400
Jason I. Gonding wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> Is it just me or does FASA not employ editors? I ask because I've
> run up against several glaring grammatical errors & one serious F*&k-up
> in Bloodsport - namely Smedman calling the CAS the Canadian American
> States.
>
> I guess that FASA is just lucky that they've got good wirters like
> Stackpole who can check their own work when churning out fiction for us.

I am under the opinion that the novels are *not* edited by FASA but by
ROC, which is the publisher for Shadowrun (if not all FASA novels).
Grammatical errors and typos generally do not bother me, nor do
authors general lack of knowledge of the Shadow'verse (not everybody
plays Shadowrun). And while not a big fan of Lisa Smedman's writing,
I will admit one thing, she did her homework for 'Psychotrope'. (No
spoiler space needed :)
It is technically correct, at least as far as I have been able to read
so far.

--
Iridios
iridios@*********.com
ICQ UIN:6629224
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489

-------Begin Geek Code Block------
GS d-(++) s+: a- C++ U?@>++ P L E?
W++ N o-- K- w(---) O? M-- V? PS+@
PE Y+ !PGP>++ t++@ 5+ X++@ R++@ tv
b+ DI++ !D G e+@>++++ h--- r+++ y+++
-------End Geek Code Block--------
Message no. 15
From: Ron Clark <rclark@****.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 20:36:48 -0500
>Jason I. Gonding wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>> Is it just me or does FASA not employ editors? I ask because I've
>> run up against several glaring grammatical errors & one serious F*&k-up
>> in Bloodsport - namely Smedman calling the CAS the Canadian American
>> States.
>>
>> I guess that FASA is just lucky that they've got good wirters like
>> Stackpole who can check their own work when churning out fiction for us.
>
>I am under the opinion that the novels are *not* edited by FASA but by
>ROC, which is the publisher for Shadowrun (if not all FASA novels).
>Grammatical errors and typos generally do not bother me, nor do
>authors general lack of knowledge of the Shadow'verse (not everybody
>plays Shadowrun). ....


Though I don't care for the edit-ly challanged, I must say something in
the writer's and editor's defense. When you read something so much, you
begin to read over the mistakes. Your mind places what you know should be
there over what is there. So simple type mistakes are easy to make. I
know in many of the manuscrips I've written, I've missed simple mistakes.
But when you're looking at a book, the editor doesn't read just the final
version, there are multiple versions and re-writes that occure. Much of
the time it's the same editors reading the material, so in the end they
suffer from the same mistakes writers have editing their own works. I'm
not saying that is an excuse, but from my stand point its an acceptable
one. Ofcourse there is no excuse for a work that has a mistake every line.
There is a difference between easy to miss mistakes and abhorant editing
and re-writing.


Ron
#include disclamer.h
Message no. 16
From: "Jason I. Gonding" <templar@****.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 22:08:05 -0400
K in the Shadows wrote:

> In a message dated 10/11/1998 11:49:53 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> dghost@****.COM writes:
>
> > > And before you say it, I've given up on Bloodsport. I was only
> > >reading it to get BG info on Azatlan, but it's too painful to continue.
> > >In fact, Smedman is shaping up to be my least fav author, even outdoing
> > >the Wonder Twins.
> >
> > Donna Ippolito Edited Technobabel so I'd say yes, FASA does employ
> > editors. Check the page with all the credits/legal info to see who
> > edited Bloodsport. And who, btw, are the wonder twins?

Actually, "The Wonder Twins" is the pet name I use for Carl Sargent & Marc
Gasgione.

--
**************************Sic Semper Tyranids!************************
Jason I. Gonding <templar@****.net>
White Dwarf / The Citadel Journal Index
<http://www.cs.odu.edu/~gonding/index.html>;
Home Page <http://www.cs.odu.edu/~gonding/home.html>;
*******************************************************************
Message no. 17
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 22:50:03 -0400
Quoting Ron Clark (rclark@****.NET):
> Though I don't care for the edit-ly challanged, I must say something in
> the writer's and editor's defense. When you read something so much, you
> begin to read over the mistakes. Your mind places what you know should be
> there over what is there. So simple type mistakes are easy to make. I
> know in many of the manuscrips I've written, I've missed simple mistakes.
> But when you're looking at a book, the editor doesn't read just the final
> version, there are multiple versions and re-writes that occure. Much of
> the time it's the same editors reading the material, so in the end they
> suffer from the same mistakes writers have editing their own works. I'm
> not saying that is an excuse, but from my stand point its an acceptable
> one. Ofcourse there is no excuse for a work that has a mistake every line.
> There is a difference between easy to miss mistakes and abhorant editing
> and re-writing.

No offense, but...that's why they call it 'work' :)

I mean, life's tough all over. Lots of people have tough jobs. If
they don't like them, they should quit and go work at McDonalds or something.
Or, to offer another option, if publishers would like to stop editting their
books for grammar and spelling, I'll be willing to buy them at half-price.
That'll cut the US$7 price of this month's paperbacks down to the $3.50 they
cost way back in...1988. Wow. 100% increase in cover price in just 10 years.
Where the hell is all that money going? I know it's not going to the authors.
For the kind of money they're charging these days, I feel perfectly justified
in demanding flawlessly editted books.
I'm tempted to go through my entire bookshelf and collect cover
prices and print dates, just to see how fast it's really moved, but that's
about 80+ linear feet of books, most of them paperbacks, and it'd just take
too long :)

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 18
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 23:29:21 -0400
Sean McCrohan wrote:
>
> I mean, life's tough all over. Lots of people have tough jobs. If
> they don't like them, they should quit and go work at McDonalds or something.
> Or, to offer another option, if publishers would like to stop editting their
> books for grammar and spelling, I'll be willing to buy them at half-price.
> That'll cut the US$7 price of this month's paperbacks down to the $3.50 they
> cost way back in...1988. Wow. 100% increase in cover price in just 10 years.
> Where the hell is all that money going? I know it's not going to the authors.

Actually, it is. Sorta.

I'm paraphrasing a bit here from Patrick Nielsen Hayden's industry rant, but
the way he explained it was that the price-per-book goes up as the
sales-per-title go down. There are other factors, of course (paper and ink
really DO cost a lot more today than ten years ago) but the real gist is that
increased competition and volume of titles drives down the profit of each
individual title. In the 1940's, when there were maybe a dozen science fiction
books published each year, you knew that those dozen books were going to SELL.
So you could match your prices to your costs quite well. Today, there are
several HUNDRED SF and fantasy titles published every year; some of them will
sell extremely well, and some of them will tank. And there's no sure way of
predicting which will succeed until they hit the shelves. The book-buying
market is steady, but their individual purchases are unpredictable and very
poorly tracked. (At present, anyway.)

So there's already a problem on the publisher's end: you want to satisfy
demand, but you've got no idea WHAT will satisfy it, so you try everything at
once. Add to this a distribution system gone hideously awry -- bookstores can
send unsold hardcover and trade paperbacks back to the publisher for full
credit; and unsold mass market paperbacks don't even HAVE to be sent back, you
can just strip the front covers off and toss the rest of the book -- and you've
got a case where unprofitable titles are chronically overpublished, and there's
no way of even guessing they're unprofitable until you get the returns six
months later. That makes for a lot of waste from the publisher, and that means
a lot of wasted money. So they have to make up for it with their profitable
lines. Since you'd lose readers very quickly if you made them conspicuously
pay more for an author just because he's POPULAR, you raise prices all across
the line. And most of us dedicated book readers are addicts; we'll complain
about it a lot, but we can't stop ourselves from buying, even at the inflated
prices.

So that's the reason in a nutshell: the $8 Robert Jordan novel you're buying,
raking in huge profits for the publisher, is paying for the $6 Paula Volsky
novel that nobody really likes (and which causes huge losses for the
publisher.) And it makes the publisher feel better about the $7 Sean Stewart
novel you might like, and which broke even, but most of the world will never
hear of him. >8->

It's a game of hit-and-miss -- the prices suck, and the publishers KNOW they
suck, but the alternative is fewer titles. As a writer AND a reader, I can
tell you straight-out that I'd rather pay 50% or even 100% more than I should,
and give publishers more latitude in trying new authors and booksellers more
books for me to choose from, then pay $4 and only have Robert Jordan.


> For the kind of money they're charging these days, I feel perfectly justified
> in demanding flawlessly editted books.

"Edited." >8-> You can feel perfectly justified in that anyway.. It'll
never
happen, as long as humans are still doing the copyediting (and believe me, a
computer would have bigger problems), but we should definitely set our
standards higher than, say, FASA's.

(BTW, in response to someone's earlier comment: as far as I understand it, FASA
acquires and delivers the edited manuscripts and covers to Roc. Roc only
publishes the books and gets them to distributors. The responsibility is
FASA's -- which isn't to say that Roc doesn't have problems in the industry.)


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley ((Oh, and BTW, I was just randomly picking on Paula Volsky and
Sean Stewart. I have no idea how well they do; if either of you are on this
newsgroup [yeah right] don't sue me.)) >8->
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 19
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 13:45:14 +1000
Steve Eley writes:
> I'm paraphrasing a bit here from Patrick Nielsen Hayden's
> industry rant, but
> the way he explained it was that the price-per-book goes up as the
> sales-per-title go down. There are other factors, of course
> (paper and ink
> really DO cost a lot more today than ten years ago)

*bing* Here's the single biggest reason, folks. The price of decent quality
paper (as opposed to newspaper) is climbing all the time, and it's going to
keep doing so for the foreseeable future. The simple reason is that making
paper from trees is getting more expensive (fewer trees) and recycling paper
was never cheap to begin with.

It's a big issue driving things like electronic books and the paperless
office.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 20
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 00:33:09 -0400
Steve Eley wrote:
>
> It's a game of hit-and-miss -- the prices suck, and the publishers KNOW they
> suck, but the alternative is fewer titles.

Oh, an important point I forgot about.. If you watch the industry (e.g.,
subscribe to _Locus_) you can actually see the price-climbing trend starting to
reverse itself. Publishers are beginning to *drop* prices on lines they feel
are money-makers -- mostly as promotions on strong-selling titles, but it's
catching on. Baen has just reprinted the first of David Weber's "Honor
Harrington" books, _On Basilisk Station_, as a $1.99 limited edition. I've
heard that Tor is re-releasing the first three Mageworlds novels, by Jim
MacDonald and Debra Doyle, at a dollar or two cheaper to promote the upcoming
fifth book in the series. And there's a whole line of books, Avon EOS, which
has made a point of establishing price points about a dollar cheaper than their
competition.

So it's happening. Not much yet, but the publishers *are* aware that their
consumers think books are too expensive, and they're starting to do something
about it. Even a $1.99 promo makes you money if there are no returns, and if
it helps sell the new Weber novel in hardcover. Once the Bookscan tracking
system and on-demand publishing become standard in the industry, I suspect
you'll see prices go down some from more efficient competition -- or if not, at
least they'll stop going up constantly. >8->


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 21
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 00:53:57 -0400
Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> *bing* Here's the single biggest reason, folks. The price of decent quality
> paper (as opposed to newspaper) is climbing all the time, and it's going to
> keep doing so for the foreseeable future. The simple reason is that making
> paper from trees is getting more expensive (fewer trees) and recycling paper
> was never cheap to begin with.

Actually, the "fewer trees" equation is something of a myth. I know several
people at work who did consulting at Georgia Pacific, and as I understand it
the big paper companies are compulsive about replanting trees faster than
they're cutting them down. They HAVE to be -- the environmental lobbyists
would be all over them if they weren't, and they've been in business enough
decades to know that you don't get ahead by eliminating your supply. Also,
paper manufacturing processes are getting more efficient all the time (there's
a whole Paper Science building at Georgia Tech; I knew some of the grad
students there.)

So the reason for paper price increases hasn't been the supply -- it's been the
demand. Modern business consumes a lot more paper than anyone ever dreamed it
would, and there are only a few serious competitors in the world paper
industry, so naturally they're charging what the market will bear.

Besides, if you look at most mass market paperbacks, you'll see they DO use the
cheap paper. It's not quite newsprint, but it's close. I've heard that the
cost of the paper hasn't gone up lately quite as much as the cost of the ink.
(What the reasons are for THAT, I've no idea.)


> It's a big issue driving things like electronic books and the paperless
> office.

The "paperless office" has been a pipe dream since the 1970's. It's supposed
to have happened by now. >8-> As for electronic books, I love the idea too,
but the business reasons driving it have more to do with distribution and
logistics than the cost of paper.

The price of paper has gone up in the last decade. That can't be denied. But
it hasn't DOUBLED, as the price of books has. I've seen the numbers for some
typical-case budgets for producing books, and as far as I can tell the total
cost to physically make and ship the book hasn't radically increased in the
past decade. The reason for the price increase is to compensate for the high
numbers of returns. The $7 price tag you pay for a paperback book is really
paying for 1-2 books that *weren't* sold, but were destroyed because it's
cheaper that way for the bookseller.

If you think that doesn't make sense -- you're right. And not everyone in the
industry groks it either. >8-> (Especially the gaming industry.. It's been
compellingly argued that their failure to understand the distribution system
for their fiction is what bankrupted TSR.)


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 22
From: Rat <shadorat@****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 22:07:13 -0700
Frank Pelletier (Trinity) <fpelletier@******.USHERB.CA> writes:


> The Wonder Twins?
>
> And, by the way...you've probably never read Shadowboxer. :)


Ugh. Shadowboxer--the worst excuse (IMO) for a Shadowrun
novel ever to be published. (Okay, so I couldn't finish a couple
of the Nyx Smith books, so maybe they were worse--SB was the
worst one I managed to work my way through.)

As for Bloodsport, I didn't have too much trouble with it--in
fact, I rather liked it, except for the previously mentioned
"little did they know..." sections at the end of chapters; this
to me smacks of a very amateurish writing style.

Psychotrope...sigh...
(adding spoiler space)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
it had such promise, and it was cool to
see the way the Matrix worked (gives me some good ideas about
introducing some decking-related stuff into my game and my
stories) but the characters were...I dunno...flat. I didn't
care about even one of them, and IMO there were just too many
of them. Did we really need the kid with the tortoise deck?
Did we really need five different deckers, at least three
of which ended up being essentially useless to solving the
problem? I don't know...it might have been that it took me
ages to finish the book because it didn't "grab" me so I kept
putting it down, but this one didn't work for me. Coming
on the heels of "Wolf and Raven" (which I loved), this
one was a disappointment.

--Rat
------------------------------------------------
shadorat@****.com
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace
http://www.best.com/~shadorat/shadowrun/wvm.html
Message no. 23
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 02:13:00 EDT
In a message dated 10/12/1998 2:46:59 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
remo@***.NET writes:

> >And the Wonder Twins???
> >Wasn't that "Zan and Jana" from the Legion of Super Heroes, the
original
> >Junior Legionaires??? ;p
>
> Zam and Jana didn't appear in LEGION; they were the replacements for Wendy
> and Marvin on the Saturday morning SUPER FRIENDS. And how pathetic is it
> that I remember this so readily...?
>
WELLLLL, If you have to ask, then maybe you are afraid to know??? ;)

-K
Message no. 24
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 02:34:15 EDT
In a message dated 10/12/1998 7:47:25 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
iridios@*********.COM writes:

>
> I am under the opinion that the novels are *not* edited by FASA but by
> ROC, which is the publisher for Shadowrun (if not all FASA novels).
> Grammatical errors and typos generally do not bother me, nor do
> authors general lack of knowledge of the Shadow'verse (not everybody
> plays Shadowrun). And while not a big fan of Lisa Smedman's writing,
> I will admit one thing, she did her homework for 'Psychotrope'. (No
> spoiler space needed :)
> It is technically correct, at least as far as I have been able to read
> so far.

Where the Novels are concerned, I *think* you are correct in that ROC does the
final editing, and if that is true, then I'm going to toss my hat in with Mike
M's opinion that ROC isn't paying attention to FASA very well. And that's a
shame.

As for Ms. Smedman's work, I know she goes to great lengths to get technical
clarity with regards to the material for SR. But as for her *flow* and
*flavor* of writing, to that end I don't know. I personally enjoyed the
Lucifer Deck very much, and I thought that was her work. I have not had the
opportunity as of this time to read Psychotrope, but it will come some day (of
course, I haven't read my signed copy of Wolf & Raven either).

-K
Message no. 25
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 08:21:57 -0400
Quoting Steve Eley (sfeley@***.NET):
> So it's happening. Not much yet, but the publishers *are* aware that their
> consumers think books are too expensive, and they're starting to do something
> about it. Even a $1.99 promo makes you money if there are no returns, and if
> it helps sell the new Weber novel in hardcover. Once the Bookscan tracking
> system and on-demand publishing become standard in the industry, I suspect
> you'll see prices go down some from more efficient competition -- or if not, at
> least they'll stop going up constantly. >8->
>

I think that on-demand printing is going to be the real answer.
Printing technology is getting steadily cheaper. At some point in the
foreseeable future, those all-in-one printers that produce paperbacks,
cover and all, fully bound, will reach a price level where it's possible
for one to buy a couple and open a bookstore with minimal stock - say,
a copy or two of the main titles, and a catalog of the rest. When you
run out of copies on the shelf, you just run off some more. If someone
asks for something you don't have in hardcopy, you just print one. No
more overstock, no more destroyed books, MUCH more efficient.
There will be Issues to deal with, of course. Like the questions
of how the publisher can know that the store is paying for every book
they print and sell. My guess is that it'll either be solved by a technology
fix (some sort of tracking system for the use of the templates) or a change
in the way the whole industry is structured. This could be either good
or bad.

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 26
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 08:49:48 -0500
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Date: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 1:12 AM

>> Zam and Jana didn't appear in LEGION; they were the replacements for
>> Wendy and Marvin on the Saturday morning SUPER FRIENDS. And how
>> pathetic is it that I remember this so readily...?
>>
>WELLLLL, If you have to ask, then maybe you are afraid to know??? ;)

The real tragedy here, Keith, is that I already knew the answer. I was just
hoping for some comfort from like-minded souls. Silly me.... <g>

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 27
From: Jak Koke <jak@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:32:41 -0700
Steve Eley wrote:
>(BTW, in response to someone's earlier comment: as far as I understand it, FASA
>acquires and delivers the edited manuscripts and covers to Roc. Roc only
>publishes the books and gets them to distributors. The responsibility is
>FASA's -- which isn't to say that Roc doesn't have problems in the industry.)

This is essentially correct. The continuity and story editing are done by
Donna Ippolito at FASA (novels only). Roc does a copy edit and commissions
the covers. They also publish the books and get them to the normal novel
distributors. FASA gets a bunch of the novels from Roc (with a different
ISBN#) for distribution to game stores.

Hope this helps,

--Jak

Jak Koke La Jolla, CA
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.koke.org/jak/
Message no. 28
From: Logan Graves <logan1@*****.INTERCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA & editors
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 21:24:47 -0400
In our last episode, Sean Matheis wrote:
>
> ...<snip> Donna Ippolito was also "Senior Editor" for Bloodsport.

Actually, Ms. Ippolito is the "Series Editor" for the _entire_ ROC
Fiction line of Shadowrun novels. She has been since the "Secrets of
Power" trilogy.

She's also the person ultimately responsible for all o' those "rejection
slips," which cover my walls. <Grrr!!>

--Fenris
_______________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) Napoleon Bonaparte wasn't all bad,
I heard he once shot an editor.
(>) W. Block

Further Reading

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