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Message no. 1
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 01:20:04 EDT
I am asking the question of exactly what the subject says. Is FASA drifting
on/off course in it's storyline. I am not implementing a Spoiler Warning of
any kind, so just in case anyone may think this is a "sensitive topic", you
have been warned. NO BOOK is sacred in this post.

In your own opinions of course :)

My Opinion?

I think they are hitting a snag that I've suddenly started putting together.
I have noticed some things, between the more recent "editor guided novels" and
the sourcebooks that are either recently released or out now.

Lofwyr mentions being in control of the IE's in Technobabel.

There are possibilities that at least some of the IE's may be getting "removed
the game activities".

The Horrors are gone (good/bad/indifferent) thanks to a Dragon's Sacrifice.

Magic is being "reversed" in some aspects, better defined maybe, yes, that
much I give and accept. But the development of Magic within the game
mechanics of SR as a whole are taking a definite new tangent.

If I didn't know any better, I would say that certain people now in command of
this "RPG Ship" are definitely changing the course of it. I know two, no make
it three, people who have had conversations in attempts/negotiations to get
material published/accepted to FASA that have given me a similar story. They
were met with the response of "you have no idea what direction SR is going, go
away". At least in one of those individual's cases, the conversation was more
"graphically descriptive".

What is -SR- then?

I guess that is what I am wondering. And I mean to have a description go
beyond the concept of "it's a role playing game". I mean flat out, what is
it? What is it going to be? What do -WE- the consumer/players of it want it
to become overall? Are we going to have a vaguely magical cyberpunk game?
Are we going to have a well defined game with an obvious course of direction
to take? Are we going to have a list of ideas so vast open to us, that there
will literally too many things to do?

We (being several members of this list) have mentioned that FASA listens to us
at times, more so than many other RPG publishers do. Now I guess I want to
find out what FASA has apparently decided to put forth for our general
perusal.

I know that people like Steve Kenson and Jon Szeto are occasional members and
participants. I know that Steve has given a bunch of information for our
general perusal and feedback. But I also know that the feedback didn't at
least to the List indicate that much, if any, of it would be taken to heart.

No, I don't know anything as being "Written In Stone" or "Unchanging".
I
guess my concerns also lie in the area of "usable interest" or "desiring to
play it".

Ideas, Guesses, Flames, Retorts, Commentary, Peanuts, Popcorn???

-K
Message no. 2
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:30:51 +0100
Ereskanti said on 1:20/ 5 May 98...

> I am asking the question of exactly what the subject says. Is FASA drifting
> on/off course in it's storyline. I am not implementing a Spoiler Warning of
> any kind, so just in case anyone may think this is a "sensitive topic", you
> have been warned. NO BOOK is sacred in this post.
>
> In your own opinions of course :)

Naturally...

I haven't enjoyed the storylines in recent years very much, to be honest.
I liked Bug City and most of the stuff before that, but what came after
was a bit so-so for my taste. (Note that I'm talking about source material
which advances the "universe storyline" here, not rulebooks.) Mike
Mulvihill seems to have definite ideas where things should go, but from
what I've seen of them they're not really going where I'd like them to.

For one thing I don't like the annual storylines, where we have "the year
of crime," "the year of the corps," and so on. Neither do I like the idea
of having everything stepped up a notch to some kind of higher stakes
game, like it was supposed to after Dunkelzahn died.

Not that I know where it all should go instead... :)

I guess that counts as an "off course" vote...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
You're gonna like it, but not a lot.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 3
From: Paul Gettle <pgettle@********.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 07:45:09 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:20 AM 5/5/98 -0400, K wrote:
<<Snip discussion asking if SR is going the way we want it to>>

>Ideas, Guesses, Flames, Retorts, Commentary, Peanuts, Popcorn???

Isn't this what the little 'Comments' section of those Shadowrun
Registration/Survey cards is for? If you don't like the direction SR
is going, then tell FASA about it. The survey cards let them listen to
their existing customer base, and if they're like any good business,
they'd do best to listen closely.

Once you've given your feedback, if new product continues to
conceptually drift from what you think 'SR' is, vote with your wallet,
and stop buying the product. Back in the early 90s, after three store
bought modules in a row that dealt with Bugs, my group just stopped
buying the store bought modules.

I'm sure there will always be plenty of net.books out there to fill
the gap, and if FASA makes a radical change to SR, then enough gamers'
sensibilites will be offened that you'd see even more net.book
material than before.
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--
-- Paul Gettle (pgettle@********.net)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:11455339 (RSA 1024, created 97/08/08)
625A FFF0 76DC A077 D21C 556B BB58 00AA
Message no. 4
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 09:56:00 EDT
In a message dated 5/5/98 4:38:51 AM US Eastern Standard Time, gurth@******.NL
writes:

> I haven't enjoyed the storylines in recent years very much, to be honest.
> I liked Bug City and most of the stuff before that, but what came after
> was a bit so-so for my taste. (Note that I'm talking about source material
> which advances the "universe storyline" here, not rulebooks.) Mike
> Mulvihill seems to have definite ideas where things should go, but from
> what I've seen of them they're not really going where I'd like them to.

Wow, when I think about it, the storyline in general, I guess I would almost
have to agree with you. You can almost feel when Mr. Mulhillvil IMO took
control, as that was when the (the FASA Universe) started to "clean up" the
mess(es) left from the previous conTROLLers ( :P). I personally think I
would have been just fine with "Bug City" remaining for many years instead of
just a few.

> For one thing I don't like the annual storylines, where we have "the year
> of crime," "the year of the corps," and so on. Neither do I like the
idea
> of having everything stepped up a notch to some kind of higher stakes
> game, like it was supposed to after Dunkelzahn died.

The "Year of ..." stuff doesn't bother me overall, just the degree of massive
change. We were taught (is 'Taught a good word for this?) that if a Megacorp
should change, then it would have many visible, viable shakings of the World
Economic Tree. That didn't happen readily in the case of Fuchi/Novatech. In
fact, the BitB book does make things happen over a 2 year period for that,
BUT, we as the players have been given no interaction with it or comprehension
of it until that book came out, which ends up with the "current timeline" in
the FASA story suite.

> Not that I know where it all should go instead... :)

I think FASA is like most of the world...they don't -know- where they are
really going yet.

> I guess that counts as an "off course" vote...

One OFF
-K
Message no. 5
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:14:57 -0500
<SNIP>
> Wow, when I think about it, the storyline in general, I guess I would almost
> have to agree with you. You can almost feel when Mr. Mulhillvil IMO took
> control, as that was when the (the FASA Universe) started to "clean up" the
> mess(es) left from the previous conTROLLers ( :P). I personally think I
> would have been just fine with "Bug City" remaining for many years instead
of
> just a few.
>
I'll back you up on this one. Just when I started incorporating Bug City
into Campaign plans, it was gone. I would have enjoyed it being around
for quite awhile.

<SNIP>
>
> The "Year of ..." stuff doesn't bother me overall, just the degree of
massive
> change. We were taught (is 'Taught a good word for this?) that if a Megacorp
> should change, then it would have many visible, viable shakings of the World
> Economic Tree. That didn't happen readily in the case of Fuchi/Novatech. In
> fact, the BitB book does make things happen over a 2 year period for that,
> BUT, we as the players have been given no interaction with it or comprehension
> of it until that book came out, which ends up with the "current timeline"
in
> the FASA story suite.
>
I'm not too fond of the "Year of" trend. It kinda locks you into
one type of adventure. Most of us are still playing several years behind
FASA's timeline, just so we can plan how to integrate the changes.
(At least I am).

I've thoroughly enjoyed Rigger 2, CyberPirates, and I'll probably
love Smuggeler's Haven. Overall I feel like SR has improved in
recent years, even if I don't always agree with, or know where SR is
going. As always if I disagree with FASA "cannon", I talk it over
with my players, and if we agree ignore it. (In my friends campaign,
Chicago has yet to be reclaimed, and the bugs are still a BIG issue, and
the election, Big D stuff, may or may not come to pass, he hasn't
decided yet).


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The universe doesn't have laws, it has habits. And habits can be broken.
Message no. 6
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:08:48 -0700
----------
> From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
> Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 6:56 AM
>
> Wow, when I think about it, the storyline in general, I guess I would
almost
> have to agree with you. You can almost feel when Mr. Mulhillvil IMO
took
> control, as that was when the (the FASA Universe) started to "clean up"
the
> mess(es) left from the previous conTROLLers ( :P). I personally think I
> would have been just fine with "Bug City" remaining for many years
instead of
> just a few.
>

*spit take!*

Bug City is over? You mean Chicago is no longer overrun by insect spirits?
Criminy, I do feel out of the loop now... Was this in a novel, or was
there an adventure where the runners help clean up the community?
Message no. 7
From: Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 17:24:17 +0200
>> I haven't enjoyed the storylines in recent years very much, to be honest.
>> I liked Bug City and most of the stuff before that, but what came after
>> was a bit so-so for my taste. (Note that I'm talking about source material
>> which advances the "universe storyline" here, not rulebooks.) Mike
>> Mulvihill seems to have definite ideas where things should go, but from
>> what I've seen of them they're not really going where I'd like them to.
>
>Wow, when I think about it, the storyline in general, I guess I would almost
>have to agree with you. You can almost feel when Mr. Mulhillvil IMO took
>control, as that was when the (the FASA Universe) started to "clean up" the
>mess(es) left from the previous conTROLLers ( :P). I personally think I
>would have been just fine with "Bug City" remaining for many years instead
of
>just a few.

I totally agree. What made SR really innovative was that magic was well
developed and managed. I tend to think that Mike doesn't like much those
magic threads and, IMO, it makes SR storyline a bit flat. If the dragon
heart trilogy was cool, it seems to be the end of the old SR line... When I
have a look at hte different storyline contributors, I see the best with
Nigel Findley. Perhaps SR has gone with his death...

>> For one thing I don't like the annual storylines, where we have "the year
>> of crime," "the year of the corps," and so on. Neither do I like
the idea
>> of having everything stepped up a notch to some kind of higher stakes
>> game, like it was supposed to after Dunkelzahn died.
>
>The "Year of ..." stuff doesn't bother me overall, just the degree of
massive
>change. We were taught (is 'Taught a good word for this?) that if a Megacorp
>should change, then it would have many visible, viable shakings of the World
>Economic Tree. That didn't happen readily in the case of Fuchi/Novatech. In
>fact, the BitB book does make things happen over a 2 year period for that,
>BUT, we as the players have been given no interaction with it or
comprehension
>of it until that book came out, which ends up with the "current timeline" in
>the FASA story suite.

I can see 2 kinds of "year of..." threads. The first doesn't have too much
implications. I think about carribean or underworld here. The other ones,
those which change drastically the world, are a bit too much IMO. The worst
of all is this corp war thread. I didn't read the novel but that seems a
bit stupid to me. In SR, megacorps aren't as powerful as in Cyberpunk. What
benefits could they gain from such a war... And when I hear about an
arcology shutdown, that makes me wonder a lot. What is it ? To me, it seems
more an **&* dungeon than anything else... :(

>> I guess that counts as an "off course" vote...
>
>One OFF

Two with mine.

- Cobra.
Message no. 8
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:19:59 -0500
>
> *spit take!*
>
> Bug City is over? You mean Chicago is no longer overrun by insect spirits?
> Criminy, I do feel out of the loop now... Was this in a novel, or was
> there an adventure where the runners help clean up the community?
>
CHeck out the Shadowrun Sourcebook BugCity,and then Target: UCAS
was the wrapup for it. That was awhile back, since SR has been
dealing with the election, fallout, and now the corp stuff.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The universe doesn't have laws, it has habits. And habits can be broken.
Message no. 9
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:21:11 -0700
----------
> From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
> Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 9:19 AM
>
> >
> > *spit take!*
> >
> > Bug City is over? You mean Chicago is no longer overrun by insect
spirits?
> > Criminy, I do feel out of the loop now... Was this in a novel, or was
> > there an adventure where the runners help clean up the community?
> >
> CHeck out the Shadowrun Sourcebook BugCity,and then Target: UCAS
> was the wrapup for it. That was awhile back, since SR has been
> dealing with the election, fallout, and now the corp stuff.
>

Okay... now I feel officially stupid.

I own both of those, but hadn't really read Target: UCAS. So I didn't
know. Back under my rock I go. =)
Message no. 10
From: Sheldon Rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:33:29 -0500
Ereskanti wrote:
>
> I am asking the question of exactly what the subject says. Is FASA drifting
> on/off course in it's storyline. I am not implementing a Spoiler Warning of
> any kind, so just in case anyone may think this is a "sensitive topic", you
> have been warned. NO BOOK is sacred in this post.

Some of the folks in this area have had this type of discussion I'll
share some of what has been discussed with the list.

> There are possibilities that at least some of the IE's may be getting "removed
> the game activities".

Well it was getting so you could not swing a dead cat without hitting an
IE so this might not be a bad idea...


> The Horrors are gone (good/bad/indifferent) thanks to a Dragon's Sacrifice.

IMO the Horrors where worth keeping... It looks like they want to get
more into the tech side of things and move away from the mystical which
is not the direction I would like to see SR move into...
Message no. 11
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 09:38:26 -0600
Lehlan Decker wrote:
/
/ Just when I started incorporating Bug City
/ into Campaign plans, it was gone. I would have enjoyed it being around
/ for quite awhile.

I gave up trying to incorporate FASA's storyline into my world a long
time ago. For example, I moved the Chicago hive to Denver. And the
hive is going to be around for a long time, as far as I'm concerned.

My approach is to buy the sourcebooks and use what I want to use.
Sometimes I use everything from the sourcebook to the letter.
Sometimes I don't use a thing.

For example, I've set a plot in motion that would be destroyed if I
kept to the storyline from Jak's books. So I won't follow that
storyline to the letter.

On the other hand other sourcebooks are awesome and don't interfere
with my campaign plans at all, so I can easily incorporate them.

And then there are times when the basic material is great, but I
don't like the story, so I change the story. <shrug>

Make of it what you will, is my philosophy.

-David
--
"That which we do not know supports that which we know."
- Joseph Campbell
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 12
From: Alex van der Kleut <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 12:18:45 -0400
At 10:33 AM 5/5/98 -0500, Sheldon Rose wrote:

>> I am asking the question of exactly what the subject says. Is FASA
drifting
>> on/off course in it's storyline. I am not implementing a Spoiler
Warning of
>> any kind, so just in case anyone may think this is a "sensitive topic",
you
>> have been warned. NO BOOK is sacred in this post.

>> There are possibilities that at least some of the IE's may be getting
"removed
>> the game activities".

Some of them have been. At the end of Technobable the Leonardo elf gets
neutralized by Lowfyr. He was trying to build his own little caer down in
Africa and had it stomped upon. He also had his magic cut off, although I
don't remember if that was permament or if he was killed also.

>> The Horrors are gone (good/bad/indifferent) thanks to a Dragon's Sacrifice.

Not all of them are gone. First, Harly says at the end that some of them
DID get through when the bridge was completed for a little while. Maybe not
the most powerful, but at the very least some of the real go-getters:)
Also, at the end of the last Dragonheart book, Dunkelzahn is going and
evening out the divide. That implies that there are more to even out. Off
of the top of my head I can remember the one in Hawaii, mentioned in the
Nigel Findley Hawaii book. IIRC Harelquin and Dirk Pitt stopped them, but
the "mana spike" would have still been there. Also in Worlds without End
Aina caused one near Crater Lake that allowed others through. And I'm sure
that there are more, smaller ones that were created by mana spikes.

>IMO the Horrors where worth keeping... It looks like they want to get
>more into the tech side of things and move away from the mystical which
>is not the direction I would like to see SR move into...

I think that they're worth keeping too, but they were coming too fast. Even
the best runner characters, initiated out to 6-7 level (181 karma without
ordeals or groups!), they don't seem very powerful comapred to a good
Earthdawn horror. They've made allowances to have smaller (and possibly
bigger) Horrors around without worrying about a full scale invasion.

As for the direction in general, I like the way that a lot of these
seemingly different events come together from different writers. Everything
in BitB boils down to two events: Big D's will and Leonardo from Black
Madonna. The will is obvious, with Fuchi screwing around. But that little
bit at the end of BM set up the whole Renraku getting really big without me
really marking it. And it happend, what 2-3 years ago real time? There
might have been a fight because of Lanier going over to R from F, but
Leonardo giving R all that tech and getting them market share was the
catalyst.

I've like the background world since the beginning because it was so
unique. But one of the things that they missed out, I thought, was a
continuously changing world. Thin khow much our world has changed in the
past 5-10 years. Quite a lot, and it seems to go faster and faster. Then
ask yourself how much SR changed between 2050 and 2055. Not an awful lot,
besides some extra toys. More detail came out (FoF, Lone Star, Tirs), but
the status quo stayed even.

Then Bug City came out, and things started changing. After that, I think
the world had become more dynamic, the way the world is. I thought that the
2057 election was good, because it was a fundamantal shift. And I really
like the Target: concept, because it looks like it'll come out as a kind of
snapshot of the worls and where its going.

Sommers
Message no. 13
From: Paolo Marcucci <paolo@*********.IT>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 18:19:30 +0200
If anyone read Technobabel, you'll see the return of an old group of people
:) being the cause (lateral, ok) of the impending corp war.

Seems like dead cats cannot be swinged safely these days :)

But overall I'm pretty satisfied by FASA course. As a GM, I have the last
word on what fits or not in MY game world, and this helps a lot. The magic
angle is still pretty important (Cyberpirates) but it's not the one and
only power in the SR world. Thanks Mike for that, I was tired of grounding
fireballs on clueless runners...

The Horrors thread has been downsized (thanks to the countless Harlequin's
Back modules ran all around the world) but not cleared. And the focus of
the SR world is now balanced between tech and magic.

And...

can someone tell me why I wrote this post? :)
____________________________________________________________
Paolo Marcucci paolo@*********.it
InterWare Service Provider Trieste, Italy
http://www.interware.it/ Tel. +39-40-360630
Message no. 14
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:13:51 -0500
I'll be the first to admit that Shadowrun isn't my main game. Too
difficult to find a group, and not very good at GMing, I just rarely get a
chance to play. However, I think the line is really suffering from the
death of the magic-based plots. Hell, almost all I play are magic-users
of one sort or another. Does anyone remember the little slogan you see
about Shadowrun in the game shop posters? "Where man meets machine in an
age of magic". The way things are going, I wouldn't be surprised if
Haley's Comet takes all of the magic with it when it leaves.
In the games I've played, most have been magic-related. If nothing else,
having a mage along has helped us get out of scrapes we couldn't have
pulled off without a huge outlay of firepower and more bodies than we
really wanted to contemplate A de-emphasization turns this into another
Rifts, where we buy more books just to see what new toys we've been
provided with, rather than what it was intended to be: a point where both
magic and technology, two otherwise irreconcilable forces, were both
necessary to get shit done.

> >One OFF
>
> Two with mine.
Three..
Message no. 15
From: Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 12:46:12 +0000
Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM> once wrote,


> I am asking the question of exactly what the subject says. Is FASA drifting
> on/off course in it's storyline. I am not implementing a Spoiler Warning of
> any kind, so just in case anyone may think this is a "sensitive topic", you
> have been warned. NO BOOK is sacred in this post.
>
> In your own opinions of course :)
>
> My Opinion?
>
> I think they are hitting a snag that I've suddenly started putting together.
> I have noticed some things, between the more recent "editor guided novels"
and
> the sourcebooks that are either recently released or out now.

Read my previous post on that (Damn Books)... I think all SR novels
basically suck, compared to the fine game they're supposed to represent.

> Lofwyr mentions being in control of the IE's in Technobabel.
>
> There are possibilities that at least some of the IE's may be getting "removed
> the game activities".

And a good thing too. IEs were the scapegoat/plausible explanation for
anything from fovae to human achievements to jiffy-pop popcorn. Damn!
Madagascar seems fucked up! IEs... Tir Na Nog is a land full of mystery.
IEs... Humanity grew from nothing to develop a superb cultural
background, thanks in part to the works of geniuses like Leonardo
DaVinci...IE...

Get rid of them, keep them, I don't care... Just don't put them as the
central figures behind everything.

> The Horrors are gone (good/bad/indifferent) thanks to a Dragon's Sacrifice.

I'm ambivalent on the subject. On one hand, I think a few horrors
filtering through would had that "horror" feeling in some games, dark,
damp corridors, no sounds, only the ragged breathing of something in the
darkness... ya know, "Alien"-like runs.

But, if you use horrors in the same fashion as you use IEs...then get rid
of them... Leonardo was an IE... Hitler was an horror... whoopie...

> Magic is being "reversed" in some aspects, better defined maybe, yes, that
> much I give and accept. But the development of Magic within the game
> mechanics of SR as a whole are taking a definite new tangent.

We have to wait for SR3 and the new Big Book O' Magic for that. I guess
since the mana curve is supposed to go up, we're going to see bigger and
better uses for magic. If the changes are for the better (Magic is more
focused, less chaotic, less "I got 20 focus hidden in a metaplane")

> If I didn't know any better, I would say that certain people now in command of
> this "RPG Ship" are definitely changing the course of it. I know two, no
make
> it three, people who have had conversations in attempts/negotiations to get
> material published/accepted to FASA that have given me a similar story. They
> were met with the response of "you have no idea what direction SR is going, go
> away". At least in one of those individual's cases, the conversation was more
> "graphically descriptive".

We all know IEs and horrors and that crossover thing were Dowd's
brainchild. Mr. Mulvihil seems to me more corporate/punkish/street
level-inclined. And I say amen to that!

> What is -SR- then? (snipped)

Nobody truly knows where SR is headed, except the DLOH. And that's good.
Imagine is everyone threw in their ideas at FASA, begging them to accept
THEIR views of SR...

I know for a fact that I personally hate too much magic...I'm more of a
cyber/matrix/punk type of player... I like it dark and gritty. I also
know for a fact that someone like Vagabond lamented the departure of the
"ED-crossover" idea from current SR products.

But still, we play the same game... That's the beauty of SR, or any other
RPG... Play like you damn want shall be the whole of the law, or
something :)

But we shouldn't rush and pressure FASA into putting out products that
satisfy a small niche of players, not all the SR players. The Net is
there for that. If you're looking for something specific, a trip at the
Archive (www.interware.it/shadowrun) could solve your problems... or fine
publications like the TSS (www.interware.it/users/adamj) fill in that gap
quite nicely.

> Ideas, Guesses, Flames, Retorts, Commentary, Peanuts, Popcorn???
>
> -K

2 hotdogs with the works, and a Michelob...thanks.

Trinity
------------------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca
This message was brought to you by Gangstarr - "Moment of Truth"

"life is blur"
Message no. 16
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:08:36 -0700
----------
> From: Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
> Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 5:46 AM
<snip>
> And a good thing too. IEs were the scapegoat/plausible explanation for
> anything from fovae to human achievements to jiffy-pop popcorn. Damn!
<snip>

The immortal elves are behind jiffy-pop? Is nothing sacred?!

<snip>
> I'm ambivalent on the subject. On one hand, I think a few horrors
> filtering through would had that "horror" feeling in some games, dark,
> damp corridors, no sounds, only the ragged breathing of something in the
> darkness... ya know, "Alien"-like runs.
>
> But, if you use horrors in the same fashion as you use IEs...then get rid
> of them... Leonardo was an IE... Hitler was an horror... whoopie...
>
<snip>

I think this is a valid point. When one aspect of the game becomes a
central, overriding feature of game universe, the whole thing becomes a
little lame. I like IEs. I don't like it when they become as ubiquitous
as the ninjas in the Tick. "Dear, I think we just ran over an immortal
elf!" "It's okay, nobody'll miss it."

Similarly, in a gaming environment, having the same theme pop up over and
over again gets lame, be it horrors, or the standard "screw-the-runner"
adventures that they perpetually publish. My group has gotten to the point
where we just cannot endure published adventures anymore. Things like that
are nice when used sparingly, but become passe' when used ad nauseum.
Unless of course you just love having bug-huntin' shadowrunners, which is
your perogative I guess.
Message no. 17
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:36:32 -0400
At 09:56 AM 5/5/98 EDT, you wrote:

>The "Year of ..." stuff doesn't bother me overall, just the degree of
massive
>change. We were taught (is 'Taught a good word for this?) that if a Megacorp
>should change, then it would have many visible, viable shakings of the World
>Economic Tree. That didn't happen readily in the case of Fuchi/Novatech. In
>fact, the BitB book does make things happen over a 2 year period for that,
>BUT, we as the players have been given no interaction with it or
comprehension
>of it until that book came out, which ends up with the "current timeline" in
>the FASA story suite.

Well, I disagree some with you on this. Obviously there are massive
ramifications to the BitB storyline. Without giving too much away, the
world changes from the Big 8 to the Big 10. The balance of economic power
is shifted away from Japan, and is in fact diffused across the Pacific Rim;
Hong Kong gets a mega, as does Russia, Quebec, and the UCAS.

But it does seem a little too neat and tidy. I think that if say, GM were
to suddenly keel over and go bankrupt, not sell another car or anything,
there would be a whole mess of ramifications to be felt for years to come.
So maybe BitB is a bit too "clean" in that respect.

I have strong suspicions that the entire BitB plotline has two purposes.
One, to reflect different political sensibilities (less fear of Japanese
economic domination in 1998 than in 1988). And two, combined with SR3 it
really turns Shadowrun into Mike Mulvihill's baby (which, BTW, I understand
his wife Sharon is expecting any day now I think) and creates a whole new
fresh start for the game. I suspect that with SR3, all the old plotlines
are essentially wrapped up for the most part, allowing Mike and the FASA
team to start fresh, without any lingering influence from the old SR1 or
SR2 plots. But that's just a theory on my part; I've not actually had
conversations with Mike.

I've been playing the game since Desert Storm started in Jan. 91 (when I
was 18 and a freshman in college, still living in the dorms), so I've seen
it go through many phases in the last 7 years. And I really like the
direction it seems to be heading in right now.

Erik J.


"Oh, the silent helicopters and the men in black fatigues? They're just my
car pool to work."
Message no. 18
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:38:03 -0400
At 01:20 AM 5/5/98 EDT, Ereskanti wrote:

>I think they are hitting a snag that I've suddenly started putting together.
>I have noticed some things, between the more recent "editor guided novels"
and
>the sourcebooks that are either recently released or out now.
>
>Lofwyr mentions being in control of the IE's in Technobabel.

I don't think Lofwyr is really in totaly control of the IE's. It's more
like he's playing them, much like the IE's play mortals. And I'm sure
Lofwyr wasn't the only one toying with the IEs.

>There are possibilities that at least some of the IE's may be getting
"removed
>the game activities".

You mean getting killed? Haven't heard word one about this.

>The Horrors are gone (good/bad/indifferent) thanks to a Dragon's Sacrifice.

It certainly shuts down a storyline that if allowed unchecked, turns
Shadowrun into Earthdawn: 2050.

>Magic is being "reversed" in some aspects, better defined maybe, yes, that
>much I give and accept. But the development of Magic within the game
>mechanics of SR as a whole are taking a definite new tangent.

I know from private conversations with Steve that Magic is being reworked.
I don't think you can call it a tangent, that's not fair to Steve or FASA.
But some significant changes are at least being thought about. We'll all
have to wait and see what changes are actually implemented in SR3 and Magic
in the Shadows.

>If I didn't know any better, I would say that certain people now in
command of
>this "RPG Ship" are definitely changing the course of it.

That's because Mike Mulvihill has changed the course of the game. While
Tom Dowd did an excellent job, SR under him took a serious dive into the
more magical elements of the game (the Bugs & the Enemy). I'm not saying
this is bad; I love SR Magic. But Mike has a different vision; he's taking
SR back to the core ideas of the game, back to real shadowruns and
corporate infighting and that sort of thing. Making SR less like Earthdawn
and more like Cyberpunk.

>I know two, no make
>it three, people who have had conversations in attempts/negotiations to get
>material published/accepted to FASA that have given me a similar story. They
>were met with the response of "you have no idea what direction SR is
going, go
>away". At least in one of those individual's cases, the conversation was
more
>"graphically descriptive".

That's because they *don't* have a clue where FASA is going. The FASA
timeline is plotted out several years in advance. Only Mike Mulvihill
really knows what is going to happen next year. IF a proposed sourcebook
fits into that projected storyline, then it's cool. But chances are high
that it won't fit.

Mike should be applauded for what's he's doing to Shadowrun. Since he's
taken over, he's revitalized the game. He's eliminated several plot
threads that weren't as true to the core principles of SR as he would like
(the Enemy & the Invae). And has turned SR into a constantly changing and
evolving game universe. Nearly every other game system has a fairly static
universe; new sourcebooks simply delve in-depth into a portion of the game
world. But SR has upped the ante; their books not only do that, they also
push a timeline of events forward. Not only does this allow them to
publish more books (good from a business perspective) it also keeps the
game very fresh and alive. And that's one of the key reasons why I love
the game as much as I do.

>I guess that is what I am wondering. And I mean to have a description go
>beyond the concept of "it's a role playing game". I mean flat out, what is
>it? What is it going to be? What do -WE- the consumer/players of it want it
>to become overall? Are we going to have a vaguely magical cyberpunk game?
>Are we going to have a well defined game with an obvious course of direction
>to take? Are we going to have a list of ideas so vast open to us, that there
>will literally too many things to do?

FASA does listen, and care, about the people who purchase its games. But
honestly, they can only listen so much. The removal of the Enemy was at
least partially voted on by players. And we do know at least some of the
future of FASA; the BitB plot continues on through 2060, which is ahead of
the actual current SR dateline of 2059. And in that book, it projects out
how several of the upcoming sourcebooks will affect the story, or at least
expand upon the story.

>I know that people like Steve Kenson and Jon Szeto are occasional members and
>participants. I know that Steve has given a bunch of information for our
>general perusal and feedback. But I also know that the feedback didn't at
>least to the List indicate that much, if any, of it would be taken to heart.

Hey, even Steve gets turned down by FASA. But I do know that at least
Steve, and probably Jon too, honestly do listen to us and our concerns. At
the very least, we're a sort of "test market" or "market research
pool"
that allows them to look in and see what our reactions to SR are. They can
see the debates we have on magic, and the problems we have. They can see
all these things and then go back and report back to Mike and work to fix
our problems.

>Ideas, Guesses, Flames, Retorts, Commentary, Peanuts, Popcorn???

Okay, commentary, retorts and salted peanuts still in the shell, like the
sort that are mandatory to buy whenever you go to a baseball game.

Erik J.


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 19
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:40:06 -0400
At 11:30 AM 5/5/98 +0100, Gurth wrote:

>For one thing I don't like the annual storylines, where we have "the year
>of crime," "the year of the corps," and so on. Neither do I like the
idea
>of having everything stepped up a notch to some kind of higher stakes
>game, like it was supposed to after Dunkelzahn died.

Yes, to a certain extent, they are "annual storylines." But as BitB has
shown us, event that occurred in 2057, like the Big D's Will, are having
tremendous ramifications in 2059/2060. All those plotlines bounce off of
each other and are intertwined with each other. One event sets off
another. Gee, just like the real world.

I've told Mike Mulvihill himself that I love what he's been doing to the
world of Shadowrun. While I love magic in the game, I love that there is a
general return to the more cyberpunk roots of the game. For several years
now, the overarching importance of the megacorporations was badly
overshadowed by other game elements. They are finally being returned to
their rightful place of prominence.

Shadowrunners aren't really supposed to be goody-two-shoe Robin Hoods,
doing shadowruns for free just because they are against the Bugs or
something. The basic concept behind the game is that the players are
professional criminals that perform freelance operations for corporations
for money. Your game and your players/PCs may be different (and that's
fine), but that's the basic idea behind much of the game. FASA, under
Mike's direction of SR, is returning to that concept.

Personally, I'm eagerly awaiting all the new SR books, because I can't wait
to see what's next. I'm chomping at the bit to see what changes with SR3.
I love the changes that Mike is making. And I think as time will passes
those of you that are nervous or not very happy about SR's direction will
come around.

Erik J.


"Ladies & Gentleman, the newest member of the band, the one and only Spice
Boy, GRUMPY SPICE!!!" <and the crowd goes wild!!!>
Message no. 20
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:18:03 -0400
At 06:19 PM 5/5/98 +0200, you wrote:
>If anyone read Technobabel, you'll see the return of an old group of people
>:) being the cause (lateral, ok) of the impending corp war.

You know, the more I read here, the less I like the term "corp war" to
describe the projected BitB events. It isn't a bloody war, there is no
Omega Order handed down. There's just a lot of sh*t that happens and one
mega is lost, three more are born. But it's not a true "corp war."

>But overall I'm pretty satisfied by FASA course. As a GM, I have the last
>word on what fits or not in MY game world, and this helps a lot. The magic
>angle is still pretty important (Cyberpirates) but it's not the one and
>only power in the SR world. Thanks Mike for that, I was tired of grounding
>fireballs on clueless runners...

Exactly. While pounding runners with fireballs is often fun, it's also a
kick to pound them with PACs or even Doom-loaded Narcojets...

As an aside, here's a truely evil thing to do to a mage - set up an ambush,
with all the attackers packing Narcojets or some drug delivery device,
doesn't matter. Pack a mixed load of Stims (since stims can cause Magic
loss), Doom (permanent Attribute damage without extremely expensive genetic
therapy I think), Gamma-Anthrax (because it's nasty), Gamma-Scopolamine
(it'll make nearly anyone but a super troll helpless) and throw in some
good old fasioned poison just for fun. Even say, three people, if they can
fire three shots each, can do a seriously wicked number on anyone, but
especially a magician. Did that once...

>The Horrors thread has been downsized (thanks to the countless Harlequin's
>Back modules ran all around the world) but not cleared. And the focus of
>the SR world is now balanced between tech and magic.

Exactly. And as near as I can tell, that's the entire purpose.

>And...
>
>can someone tell me why I wrote this post? :)

You were going through withdrawal from RN?

Erik J.


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 21
From: Panther <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:33:05 +0000
> Does anyone remember the
> little slogan you see about Shadowrun in the game shop posters?
> "Where man meets machine in an age of magic". The way things are
> going, I wouldn't be surprised if Haley's Comet takes all of the
> magic with it when it leaves.

If it does, I guarantee right now that I'll stop buying SR stuff and
keep what I've got. The original premise for SR (IMHO) was a
cyberpunk game where magic was just beginning to return to the earth.
The way the game's bg is written, you simply CAN'T get rid of the
magic and still have it be SR. You can LIMIT it, yes. But if it
totally gets removed from the game you no longer have SR, you have CP
2020.

> In the games I've played, most have been magic-related. If
> nothing else,
> having a mage along has helped us get out of scrapes we couldn't
> have pulled off without a huge outlay of firepower and more bodies
> than we really wanted to contemplate A de-emphasization turns this
> into another Rifts, where we buy more books just to see what new
> toys we've been provided with, rather than what it was intended to
> be: a point where both magic and technology, two otherwise
> irreconcilable forces, were both necessary to get shit done.

Not only that, but by forcing us to have more firepower and ppl on a
team, it attempts to force us to play merc campaigns

> > >One OFF
> >
> > Two with mine.
> Three..
Make it four

Panther
Message no. 22
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:08:03 -0800
I like the fact that the Horrors are being postponed. My own oft-stated
preference is that the Horrors show up in the SR world and get their
collective asses handed to them on a platter by military forces experienced
in integrating technology and magic, the result of a world where research
can be shared across the world in an instant through the Matrix. I don't
want the game to turn into a sudden "everyone bands together to fight
Horrors" (which is the sensible reaction to a massive invasion). I'd
rather just have a few that snuck through for PC's to deal with
individually once in a while. (If it's more than two adventures in a
campaign, then the PC's ought to be explicitly *hunting* the damn things...)

I like the downplaying of the immortal elves. I really disliked
Black Madonna, and prefer to have them as mere players, not massive
forces behind the scenes. Sure, the Tirs and Azania are strongholds
of IEdom, but they're neither the largest nor most powerful countries,
and they're not even very nice places to live unless you're an elf
who agrees with the policies of the regime. I enjoy having immortal
elves in SR as players, but I'm going to ignore all the bits about
them being important historical figures unless they're explicitly
called out in an SR sourcebook. (I tend to ignore novels unless they're
shoehorned in via sourcebook-- physical adepts cannot parry bullets
with katanas in my game, Leonardo da Vinci was a human being that
Ehran the Scribe knew personally, and Queen Elizabeth was *not* Alachia.)
I like the Earthdawn background to the SR world as something very
subtle that the PC's can discover.

At 01:20 5/5/98 EDT, Ereskanti insinuated:
>What is -SR- then?

Shadowrun is a game about shadowrunners. Shadowrunning is usually
a matter of doing illegal deeds for someone who needs them performed by
"deniable assets" that can't be traced to the person hiring the runners.
FASA is providing us with plenty of motivations for shadowruns with Threats
and by stirring things up with Blood in the Boardroom, and plenty of
motivations for going out and doing things without a Johnson via
Dunkelzahn's Secrets. Corporate Shadowfiles is, in my opinion, one
of the best books for spawning shadowruns (though it make take a lot
of work for the PC's to figure out *why* a run is being performed,
if you start with a high-level motivation and then work out the pieces
down to where the runners come in).

>I guess that is what I am wondering. And I mean to have a description go
>beyond the concept of "it's a role playing game". I mean flat out, what is
>it? What is it going to be? What do -WE- the consumer/players of it want it
>to become overall? Are we going to have a vaguely magical cyberpunk game?
>Are we going to have a well defined game with an obvious course of direction
>to take? Are we going to have a list of ideas so vast open to us, that there
>will literally too many things to do?

Shadowrun itself doesn't need a course of direction; it's a role-playing
game. FASA are advancing time in their game, releasing sourcebooks
showing how the history of the Shadowrun world unfolds, rather than just
pumping out more things detailing a static world where it's always 2050,
unlike many other RPG's.

History doesn't tend to have a direction-- it just keeps going, and you
react to it. You can see the chain of events fairly well: Aztlan
leads to Harlequin's Back leads to Dunkelzahn's Secrets leads to
Blood in the Boardroom, and I like seeing these chains of causality.
The direction they're taking is obvious: advance time, and examine how
the world changes as a result of past actions. As long as they take the
time to make sure these changes are consistent, and important events are
not forgotten, I'm pretty happy. I like having a balance between
magic and technology-- the SOTA should be steadily advancing for both
of them.

I *would* like to see more emphasis on consistency. There have been a
number of places where FASA has been in dire need of it. As a
San Francisco Bay Area native, I was appalled by how inaccurate the
map in the Cal Free State sourcebook was, and I've heard they're not
much better for many other places. Rigger 2 needed a lot more playtesting
and consistency checking, and the layout had a lot of problems; I'm
looking forward to an official errata. The SOTA rules in the Shadowrun
Companion seldom make sense (it gets harder to set a broken arm
because the SOTA advanced in a corporate lab? people with wired reflexes
get closer to normal speed when someone invents a faster grade of cyberware?).
Cyberpirates and Rigger 2 break the skill system with Concentrations that
follow different mechanics from the General Skills they Concentrate from.

I would also like to see more details on the rest of the world-- I'm hoping
that Smuggler's Havens will fill in a few things like Siberia and Azania
and Amazonia, and with all the Japanese megacorps, I'm amazed there hasn't
been a Japan sourcebook, or one for eastern Asia.

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 23
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 15:13:06 -0400
At 12:46 PM 5/5/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Read my previous post on that (Damn Books)... I think all SR novels
>basically suck, compared to the fine game they're supposed to represent.

One caveat: 2XS, for me, seemed one of the novels that preserved the level
of power I like to see. Dirk, when the big, scary stuff started happening,
was -scared-, he knew it was out of his league. A Colt Manhunter was his
weapon of choice, and he thought of it as a big fraggin' gun. And I think
the atmosphere presented was definitely worth the read, I think 2XS is one
of the SR novels that could have made it as a novel without the FASA
endorsement as an SR-related product, it was good.

>And a good thing too. IEs were the scapegoat/plausible explanation for
>anything from fovae to human achievements to jiffy-pop popcorn. Damn!
>Madagascar seems fucked up! IEs... Tir Na Nog is a land full of mystery.
>IEs... Humanity grew from nothing to develop a superb cultural
>background, thanks in part to the works of geniuses like Leonardo
>DaVinci...IE...
>
>Get rid of them, keep them, I don't care... Just don't put them as the
>central figures behind everything.

Exactly. Runners should be the focus of the game material, and novels
about the game world.

>We all know IEs and horrors and that crossover thing were Dowd's
>brainchild. Mr. Mulvihil seems to me more corporate/punkish/street
>level-inclined. And I say amen to that!

I second that opinion...

>Nobody truly knows where SR is headed, except the DLOH. And that's good.
>Imagine is everyone threw in their ideas at FASA, begging them to accept
>THEIR views of SR...

You know what, I liked SR better when it didn't have a "direction". I'd
much rather come up with a 'direction' for my game world on my own. What I
want from a game is rules for things, background on what has come before,
what's possible. Possible directions for the game world are, to me, best
left optional, so that you don't have to include them in your campaign to
use other material for the game. Then again, I don't use modules and
campaign material, for most games. So I suppose the one gripe I have is
the "magic is getting more and more powerful" theme, which bugs me because
it seems to be happening so quickly in the SR universe...


losthalo@********.comwhileyouarelisteningyourwillingattentionismakingyoumore
andmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome.

"Some things are true whether you believe them or not."
Message no. 24
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 12:40:46 PDT
>> I haven't enjoyed the storylines in recent years very much, to be
honest.
>> I liked Bug City and most of the stuff before that, but what came
after
>> was a bit so-so for my taste. (Note that I'm talking about source
material
>> which advances the "universe storyline" here, not rulebooks.) Mike
>> Mulvihill seems to have definite ideas where things should go, but
from
>> what I've seen of them they're not really going where I'd like them
to.
>
>Wow, when I think about it, the storyline in general, I guess I would
almost
>have to agree with you. You can almost feel when Mr. Mulhillvil IMO
took
>control, as that was when the (the FASA Universe) started to "clean up"
the
>mess(es) left from the previous conTROLLers ( :P). I personally think
I
>would have been just fine with "Bug City" remaining for many years
instead of
>just a few.

<rant>
*sigh* I've been saying this for HOW many months now? Only when
someone else says it do people start to agree. I give up. <g>
</rant>

-Vagabond
"Under wandering stars I've grown"
________________________________________________________
<nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 25
From: Czar Eggbert <czregbrt@*********.EDU>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:56:49 -0500
> I can see 2 kinds of "year of..." threads. The first doesn't have too much
> implications. I think about carribean or underworld here. The other ones,
> those which change drastically the world, are a bit too much IMO. The worst
> of all is this corp war thread. I didn't read the novel but that seems a
> bit stupid to me. In SR, megacorps aren't as powerful as in Cyberpunk. What
> benefits could they gain from such a war... And when I hear about an
> arcology shutdown, that makes me wonder a lot. What is it ? To me, it seems
> more an **&* dungeon than anything else... :(

Acually I have been talking with the writers ofthis book, Dave Hyatt and
Boris (don't know his real name... he did most of BitB) and from what he
has let eek out this isn't going to be a Dungon crawl.


-Czar
-Currently Suffering from Shadowland Withdrawal

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Czar Eggbert
Ruler, Dark Side of the Moon.
homepage: http://travel.to/czareggbert.empire
mailto: czregbrt@*********.edu
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I lived my life in a ship in a bottle in a world in a glass jar..."
-Mike Fontaine

"CRACK! SMASH! SHATTER!"
-Helen Stunkard
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Message no. 26
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 16:31:46 EST
> adepts cannot parry bullets with katanas in my game, Leonardo da
> Vinci was a human being that Ehran the Scribe knew personally, and

The da Vinci thing was cleaned up in Technobabel, one of the best
parts of the novel, IMHO.


> History doesn't tend to have a direction-- it just keeps going, and
> you react to it. You can see the chain of events fairly well:
> Aztlan leads to Harlequin's Back leads to Dunkelzahn's Secrets leads
> to Blood in the Boardroom, and I like seeing these chains of
> causality. The direction they're taking is obvious: advance time,

However, recently SR has given a linear chain. Election. Portfolio.
Mob War. Corp war. Ho-hum. I much prefered a dynamic world that
had different things happening at once. You can certainly do that
now...but we're getting less of that impression.

> problems; I'm looking forward to an official errata. The SOTA rules
> in the Shadowrun Companion seldom make sense (it gets harder to set

My complaints about SOTA have always been the same...the standard
against which everything is measured, the (meta)human body, does not
change. This is why pistols do lousy damage base...their numbers
have been compensated for because of armor SOTA.

> and Azania and Amazonia, and with all the Japanese megacorps, I'm
> amazed there hasn't been a Japan sourcebook, or one for eastern
> Asia.

FASAMike has directly stated that he sees no need or use for a
Japan sourcebook. While most of us may disagree, that's the way it
is. Me, I plan on putting my requests on all my product cards.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 27
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 23:06:04 +0100
Ereskanti said on 9:56/ 5 May 98...

> Wow, when I think about it, the storyline in general, I guess I would almost
> have to agree with you. You can almost feel when Mr. Mulhillvil IMO took
> control

SRII says the shift from Fifth to Sixth World was noticable only when
looking back on it. IMHO this is a similar situation: at the time Mike
took over from Carl who had/hadn't taken over from Tom, things changed but
it wasn't apparent at the time. It is now.

> as that was when the (the FASA Universe) started to "clean up" the
> mess(es) left from the previous conTROLLers ( :P). I personally think
> I would have been just fine with "Bug City" remaining for many years
> instead of just a few.

Me too. This is one of the decisions I'm not particularly fond of (and
yes, I'm aware of the fact that as GMs can change anything regarding the
overall storyline they want -- but that's not what this thread is about);
killing Dunkelzahn is another. It may have cleaned up a "mess," as you
put it, and sparked off some interesting storylines, but ultimately it
didn't _feel_ right to me. Perhaps a major part is played by the way I
perceive the SR storyline, as "the books" want you to play it, is shifting
toward good vs. evil (I'm not talking about the Horrors here).

> The "Year of ..." stuff doesn't bother me overall, just the degree of
massive
> change.

And that's what each of these years tends to bring us. The election year
saw Dunkelzahn get killed. The crime year started with O'Malley getting
his head shot off. The corp year has a megacorp going under (I haven't got
the books yet, so I don't know the details). As I was typing this just
now, I suddenly realized somebody big gets taken out of the game world in
each year...

> > Not that I know where it all should go instead... :)
>
> I think FASA is like most of the world...they don't -know- where they are
> really going yet.

That doesn't bother me; I live my life the same way -- although I hope
FASA are doing better than I am :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
You're gonna like it, but not a lot.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 28
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 23:06:04 +0100
Nexx said on 11:13/ 5 May 98...

> I'll be the first to admit that Shadowrun isn't my main game. Too
> difficult to find a group, and not very good at GMing, I just rarely get a
> chance to play. However, I think the line is really suffering from the
> death of the magic-based plots.

Strange... I had the impression that recently magic has been taking on a
bigger role than it did in the past.

> Hell, almost all I play are magic-users of one sort or another. Does
> anyone remember the little slogan you see about Shadowrun in the game
> shop posters? "Where man meets machine in an age of magic".

"Where Man Meets Magic And Machine" it says on the cover of the
first-edition SR rulebook.

> In the games I've played, most have been magic-related. If nothing else,
> having a mage along has helped us get out of scrapes we couldn't have
> pulled off without a huge outlay of firepower and more bodies than we
> really wanted to contemplate A de-emphasization turns this into another
> Rifts, where we buy more books just to see what new toys we've been
> provided with

Unlikely, IMHO. SR has never been a toy-oriented game, especially not in
recent years. After Cybertechnology (almost 3 years old now), hardly any
equipment has been published, except for some vehicle-related things in
Rigger 2. Of course, it's my opinion that SR has way too few neat to own
but mostly useless toys anyway...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
You're gonna like it, but not a lot.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 29
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:40:25 -0700
>
> FASAMike has directly stated that he sees no need or use for a
> Japan sourcebook. While most of us may disagree, that's the way it
> is. Me, I plan on putting my requests on all my product cards.
>

Having a cyberpunk genre game without Japan sourcebook is like running a
Lovecraft-genre game without an Arkham sourcebook. Sure, you can play the
game without it, but the region is so wrapped up in the genre that it
deserves at least a minimal amount of fleshing out.
Message no. 30
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 18:07:09 -0400
At 02:40 PM 5/5/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Having a cyberpunk genre game without Japan sourcebook is like running a
>Lovecraft-genre game without an Arkham sourcebook. Sure, you can play the
>game without it, but the region is so wrapped up in the genre that it
>deserves at least a minimal amount of fleshing out.

_Exactly_. There are how many zaibatsus in SR? How many products coming
from Asia? Not to mention all the -Pacific- trade done in Seattle (the
home ground for SR). I think Japan is more important than a Germany
sourcebook, or even a Great Britain sourcebook. Look at the treatment both
the Tirs received... Japan is irrelevant? Hardly. Renraku, Mitsuhama,
Fuchi. The electronics industry. The Yakuza. 'Nuff said.


losthalo@********.comwhileyouarelisteningyourwillingattentionismakingyoumore
andmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome.

"Some things are true whether you believe them or not."
Message no. 31
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 18:36:37 -0400
Once upon a time, Ereskanti wrote;

>Ideas, Guesses, Flames, Retorts, Commentary, Peanuts, Popcorn???

Albatross!

Well anyway, I didn't agree with the Companion and even had words
with Mike about it on this list but I wouldn't pass judgment on direction
yet. (my gripes were more about the mechanics anyhow) SR3 will definitely
be the foundation for where Shadowrun is heading and until it comes out I
can't say anything.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"When _I_ use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful
tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
-Through the Looking Glass

I am MC23
Message no. 32
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 18:46:23 -0400
Once upon a time, losthalo wrote;

>_Exactly_. There are how many zaibatsus in SR? How many products coming
>from Asia? Not to mention all the -Pacific- trade done in Seattle (the
>home ground for SR). I think Japan is more important than a Germany
>sourcebook, or even a Great Britain sourcebook. Look at the treatment both
>the Tirs received... Japan is irrelevant? Hardly. Renraku, Mitsuhama,
>Fuchi. The electronics industry. The Yakuza. 'Nuff said.

Why we won't see many area sourcebooks.

It's simple, FASA painted themselves in a corner with Shadowrun in
that everything happens in your home city. Why would the general player
of Shadowrun buy a book on Japan when all his character's career is going
to be in Seattle? Until FASA changes the direction of how Shadowrun
adventures work (basically to involve traveling) then don't expect to see
anything on other cities unless you look for them on the net.
Keeping things in a Western mind set for magic all these years on
the other hand upsets me. Oh well, next book O' magic ought to have the
Chinese magician (Underworld Sourcebook) and social adepts (BitB) in it
since the lid of that Pandora's Box has just been cracked opened.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed,
briefed, debriefed, or numbered "
-No. 6, The Prisoner

I am MC23
Message no. 33
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 16:16:57 -0700
----------
> From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
> Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 3:46 PM
>
>
> Why we won't see many area sourcebooks.
>
> It's simple, FASA painted themselves in a corner with Shadowrun in
> that everything happens in your home city. Why would the general player
> of Shadowrun buy a book on Japan when all his character's career is going
> to be in Seattle? Until FASA changes the direction of how Shadowrun
> adventures work (basically to involve traveling) then don't expect to see
> anything on other cities unless you look for them on the net.

I suppose you have a point there. With the shift in focus in SR, it does
seem as though area sourcebooks are going the way of the dodo. Now that I
think about it, I can't really think of any area sourcebooks that have come
out since Aztlan, unless you count Cyberpirates. Which has me sorta
bummed, since I really enjoyed the books.

I guess what I would ultimately _love_ to see come out is just a quick
review of what is going on in the rest of the world. Really. I mean, they
give a vague mention of it in the main rules, but that's it. I sorta know
what's going on outside of the continental US. But not really. Unless
they put something in one of the books that came out during my hiatus, all
I know about asia is that Japan is an Empire, the Phillipines are
oppressed, and that's about it. I know Africa's in the cyberpirates book,
but from what I've heard that isn't saying much. I have yet to sit down
and read it. My big moment of joy was finding out there's stuff about the
carib league out. Europe? As far as I know There's England, TNN (the
nashville network?) and Germany. You could maybe construe some stuff if
you were really into the novels, but that's about it. You can maybe get
something from comments made in FoF and PAoE, but not really. Eastern
Europe? Russia? The middle east? I have no fraggin' clue.

I would be just ecstatic if they put out one big book with a quick summary
of most major governments and what's going on, so that if I'm running a
campaign, and my players decide to skip off to, of all places Italy or
something, I won't have to either contrive something off the top of my head
despite the fact I know squat about Italy, or else end the session, dig out
my copy of Black Madonna, and try and get a feel for Italy from a rereading
of that. White Wolf's done it twice, with one of them being what I
consider to be pretty successful. I should think it would be a fairly
simple thing to do for FASA.

*pant* *pant*

Wow, dunno what just came over me. =)
Message no. 34
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 19:31:25 -0400
Once upon a time, Jeremy "Bolthy" Zimmerman wrote;

<snip>

>*pant* *pant*
>
>Wow, dunno what just came over me. =)

Dr. Frank-N-Furter.

B>P#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

I swear to tell
the Truth, the partial Truth, or something like the Truth.

I am MC23
Message no. 35
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 16:58:38 -0600
At 13:36 05/05/98 -0400, you wrote:
>economic domination in 1998 than in 1988). And two, combined with SR3 it
>really turns Shadowrun into Mike Mulvihill's baby (which, BTW, I understand
>his wife Sharon is expecting any day now I think)

It was due today.. I haven't heard any news yet, but I assume it will
filter down to one of us real soon after the birth. (Most likely Steve K,
but who knows..)

-Adam
-
http://www.interware.it/users/adamj \ fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ# 2350330
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ FreeRPG Webring \ TSS Productions
The Shadowrun Supplemental \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ RPGA Reviwer
Message no. 36
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 17:00:50 -0600
At 14:33 05/05/98 +0000, you wrote:
>> Does anyone remember the
>> little slogan you see about Shadowrun in the game shop posters?
>> "Where man meets machine in an age of magic". The way things are
>> going, I wouldn't be surprised if Haley's Comet takes all of the
>> magic with it when it leaves.

HAHAHA!
ROFL! ROFL! ROFL!
I'm going to have to save this post.

(Sorry if it seems like I'm laughing at you here. I'll shut up.)

>If it does, I guarantee right now that I'll stop buying SR stuff and
>keep what I've got. The original premise for SR (IMHO) was a
>cyberpunk game where magic was just beginning to return to the earth.
> The way the game's bg is written, you simply CAN'T get rid of the
>magic and still have it be SR. You can LIMIT it, yes. But if it
>totally gets removed from the game you no longer have SR, you have CP
>2020.

Agreed. But I could quite happily play Shadowrun if magic was never
introduced to it.

>> > >One OFF
>> >
>> > Two with mine.
>> Three..
>Make it four

Add an ON. More coming later.

-Adam
-
http://www.interware.it/users/adamj \ fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ# 2350330
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ FreeRPG Webring \ TSS Productions
The Shadowrun Supplemental \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ RPGA Reviwer
Message no. 37
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 17:03:39 -0600
At 15:13 05/05/98 -0400, you wrote:

>>Read my previous post on that (Damn Books)... I think all SR novels
>>basically suck, compared to the fine game they're supposed to represent.
>
>One caveat: 2XS, for me, seemed one of the novels that preserved the level
>of power I like to see. Dirk, when the big, scary stuff started happening,
>was -scared-, he knew it was out of his league. A Colt Manhunter was his
>weapon of choice, and he thought of it as a big fraggin' gun. And I think
>the atmosphere presented was definitely worth the read, I think 2XS is one
>of the SR novels that could have made it as a novel without the FASA
>endorsement as an SR-related product, it was good.

At the risk of starting a novel war, I agree 100% with this. 2XS was a
fabulous Shadowrun novel, and IMnsHO represents the more 'typical'
underground lifestyle and 'shadowrunner'.

Dirk was basically trash, and I loved him for it. He was *real*.

-Adam
-
http://www.interware.it/users/adamj \ fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ# 2350330
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ FreeRPG Webring \ TSS Productions
The Shadowrun Supplemental \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ RPGA Reviwer
Message no. 38
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 17:10:08 -0600
At 16:31 05/05/98 EST, you wrote:

>> History doesn't tend to have a direction-- it just keeps going, and
>> you react to it. You can see the chain of events fairly well:
>> Aztlan leads to Harlequin's Back leads to Dunkelzahn's Secrets leads
>> to Blood in the Boardroom, and I like seeing these chains of
>> causality. The direction they're taking is obvious: advance time,
>
>However, recently SR has given a linear chain. Election. Portfolio.
> Mob War. Corp war. Ho-hum. I much prefered a dynamic world that
>had different things happening at once. You can certainly do that
>now...but we're getting less of that impression.

I think the thing FASA has trying to do lately is provide framework, and
let the gamemaster and players provide the dynamics for the individual
campaign.

In some cases it does seem like you a 'pushed' from one link in the chain
to another, but that's our job as gamemasters and roleplayers -- to link
those chains together and provide a fun game.

The best books IMO are the ones that provide the ideas that can spawn many
games, and also IMO we're still getting those books -- Underworld is one of
my favs, and I'm *very* anxiously anticipating Seattle 2.

>> and Azania and Amazonia, and with all the Japanese megacorps, I'm
>> amazed there hasn't been a Japan sourcebook, or one for eastern
>> Asia.
>
>FASAMike has directly stated that he sees no need or use for a
>Japan sourcebook. While most of us may disagree, that's the way it
>is. Me, I plan on putting my requests on all my product cards.

Do you have a direct quote for this? <g> While I personally would find
very little use for a Japan sourcebook, I certainly think there's enough
people that want it to warrant FASA finding a way to fit one into the
schedule and timeline.

-Adam J
-
http://www.interware.it/users/adamj \ fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ# 2350330
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ FreeRPG Webring \ TSS Productions
The Shadowrun Supplemental \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ RPGA Reviwer
Message no. 39
From: Panther <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 20:05:28 +0000
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


> Agreed. But I could quite happily play Shadowrun if magic was never
> introduced to it.

Oh, definitely. But it'd really mess the entire game up to put in
magic and then take it out after having it for a decade

Panther

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Message no. 40
From: Panther <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 20:05:31 +0000
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


> Agreed. But I could quite happily play Shadowrun if magic was never
> introduced to it.

Oh, definitely. But it'd really mess the entire game up to put in
magic and then take it out after having it for a decade

Panther

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Message no. 41
From: Czar Eggbert <czregbrt@*********.EDU>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 19:35:06 -0500
On Tue, 5 May 1998, Adam J wrote:
> >One caveat: 2XS, for me, seemed one of the novels that preserved the level
> >of power I like to see. Dirk, when the big, scary stuff started happening,
> >was -scared-, he knew it was out of his league. A Colt Manhunter was his
> >weapon of choice, and he thought of it as a big fraggin' gun. And I think
> >the atmosphere presented was definitely worth the read, I think 2XS is one
> >of the SR novels that could have made it as a novel without the FASA
> >endorsement as an SR-related product, it was good.
>
> At the risk of starting a novel war, I agree 100% with this. 2XS was a
> fabulous Shadowrun novel, and IMnsHO represents the more 'typical'
> underground lifestyle and 'shadowrunner'.
>
> Dirk was basically trash, and I loved him for it. He was *real*.

Your right about that one... also another good Runner level novel is
Shadowplay, the only problem I had with it was the fact that a out of the
loop decker was able to deckl the ZO...

Also add Changling (the one with the goblinized kid) and Dead Air to that
list...

-Czar
-Who posts more often now that Shadowland is down




-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Czar Eggbert
Ruler, Dark Side of the Moon.
homepage: http://travel.to/czareggbert.empire
mailto: czregbrt@*********.edu
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I lived my life in a ship in a bottle in a world in a glass jar..."
-Mike Fontaine

"CRACK! SMASH! SHATTER!"
-Helen Stunkard
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Message no. 42
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 20:44:12 EDT
In a message dated 5/5/98 10:19:17 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
wgallas@*****.FR writes:

> >One OFF
>
> Two with mine.
>
> - Cobra.
>
Technically Three, I forgot to count myself here...

-K
Message no. 43
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 20:57:23 EDT
In a message dated 5/5/98 12:46:38 PM US Eastern Standard Time, erikj@****.COM
writes:

> >Ideas, Guesses, Flames, Retorts, Commentary, Peanuts, Popcorn???
>
> Okay, commentary, retorts and salted peanuts still in the shell, like the
> sort that are mandatory to buy whenever you go to a baseball game.
>
> Erik J.
>
"Okay, thank you Mr. Erik J, that'll be 25 nyen sir..." (not letting go of the
drink(s), but lettting you open the salted peanuts ...)

-K
Message no. 44
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:12:40 -0400
On Tuesday, May 05, 1998 8:35 PM, Czar Eggbert[SMTP:czregbrt@*********.EDU] wrote:

> Your right about that one... also another good Runner level novel is
> Shadowplay, the only problem I had with it was the fact that a out of the
> loop decker was able to deckl the ZO...

They let her in... (At least according to some shadowtalk in Corp SF)

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
Message no. 45
From: Sheldon Rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:12:07 -0500
Frank Pelletier wrote:
(Rather large snip)
>
>
> > What is -SR- then? (snipped)
>
> Nobody truly knows where SR is headed, except the DLOH. And that's good.
> Imagine is everyone threw in their ideas at FASA, begging them to accept
> THEIR views of SR...
>
> I know for a fact that I personally hate too much magic...I'm more of a
> cyber/matrix/punk type of player... I like it dark and gritty. I also
> know for a fact that someone like Vagabond lamented the departure of the
> "ED-crossover" idea from current SR products.

I was involved a somewhat heated debate on this topic at one point. I
tend to like things mystical with strong tie ins to myth, legend and
magic. If I wanted to play gritty cyberpunk I would be using a different
gameing system. :) Magic is what makes Shadowrun special and IMO a much
enriched game by not being just one of many games in the cyberpunk
gerne.


> But still, we play the same game... That's the beauty of SR, or any other
> RPG... Play like you damn want shall be the whole of the law, or
> something :)

This we can argee on at least... Do I think FASA is off base personally
yes I do I agree with making the IE's not such a big big deal, but that
is the only thing I like about the new direction.
Message no. 46
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 04:24:25 +0000
> > >One OFF
> >
> > Two with mine.
> >
> > - Cobra.
> >
> Technically Three, I forgot to count myself here...
>
> -K
Oh, you vote OFF? Damn. I have to vote ON, then. ;)

Everyone (subtract newer members) should know my view on IE's
etcetera. They shouldn't be surprised I think Fasa's ON course...
.. almost. I think I like the explanation they're doing a tabula
rasa, making SR a clean slate for the third edition. I think I'll be
inclined to do the same - start afresh - with that edition. We'll
see, though, won't we?


OT & OL note:
(BTW, Keith, and anyone else for that matter, I think some of Clive
Barker's books are very interesting to read, and is highly suggested.
They have lots of disgusting, weird, or plain STRANGE ideas that
would have a *lot* of potential in Shadowrun. From the disgusting..
the Lix, for instance (possessed human feces) to the bizarre out
through tragic (The servant (free spirit) of a powerful mage is set
free. Asking what it should do, the answer is the careless 'be an
assassin or a whore, I don't care'. The creature limits its choices
to those two exclusively, but is repulsed utterly by both.).).

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 47
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 22:54:42 PDT
>> Agreed. But I could quite happily play Shadowrun if magic was never
>> introduced to it.
>
>Oh, definitely. But it'd really mess the entire game up to put in
>magic and then take it out after having it for a decade

I can't believe I'm reading this... if you don't like the magic... go
play Cyberpunk. Magic is what made SR what it is.

-Vagabond
"Under wandering stars I've grown"
________________________________________________________
<nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 48
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 02:54:24 -0400
At 10:33 AM 5/5/98 -0500, Sheldon Rose wrote these timeless words:
>Ereskanti wrote:
>>
>> I am asking the question of exactly what the subject says. Is FASA
drifting
>> on/off course in it's storyline. I am not implementing a Spoiler
Warning of
>> any kind, so just in case anyone may think this is a "sensitive topic",
you
>> have been warned. NO BOOK is sacred in this post.
>
>Some of the folks in this area have had this type of discussion I'll
>share some of what has been discussed with the list.
>
>> There are possibilities that at least some of the IE's may be getting
"removed
>> the game activities".
>
>Well it was getting so you could not swing a dead cat without hitting an
>IE so this might not be a bad idea...
>
>
>> The Horrors are gone (good/bad/indifferent) thanks to a Dragon's Sacrifice.
>
>IMO the Horrors where worth keeping... It looks like they want to get
>more into the tech side of things and move away from the mystical which
>is not the direction I would like to see SR move into...
>
I can say with fair accuracy that the game is NOT moving away from magic.
however, the world threatening plots that can only be stopped by a
copmbined force of IE's, Dragons, and Super Corp Sponsored Runners is
(hopefully) going the way of the dodo... The normal magic stuff (i.e., the
stuff from the Main Book and the Grimmy) is here to stay, though it will
get bit of retouching in SR3.

Toi be honest, I really like the *idea* behind the IE's and the Horrors...
They were even kinda cool way back when. I love the bugs. There's a lot
of stuff I really like. But let's face it, FASA was going through a wierd
time (Not-so-coincedentally enough, just before Mike was brought in) where
everything they did had IE and Horrors stamped all over it. And EVERYONE
was complaining about it. FASA listened, and though it's taken 3+ years to
get the plotline through to the finish, FASA and Mike Mulvhill (With help
froma few others, Jak Koke among the biggest and brightest names:)) have
managed to "clean house" and reset the stage.

One thing that Mike said at last year's Gen Con was that he really wanted
to try and get the focus of the game back on Shadowrunners. And let's face
it, most Shadowrunners aren;t going to leave the streets of Seattle (or
wherever their hometown happens to be. For generic SR, it's Seattle).
hell, they're lucky if they ever make it out of their neighborhood.

<shrug>

WHo knows... With SR3 and the revamps of all the main sourcebooks, we'll
see what comes next for SR... And of course, we'll see who likes it and
whop hates it...

However, I emphatically say that FASA is on course... I don;t like
everything they do, but hey, that's why I've been lobbing material and
proposals at them lately... :] if you don;t like the game, try and
rewrite it, officially :]

See ya!

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka Chaos, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Cuddly Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome and Archive
Answer Ork Decker!
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---- in semi-production now!
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Bond villian."
-- Dennis Miller on HBO
Message no. 49
From: Herbert Wolverson <hfw373s@***.SMSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 02:16:32 -0500
Hello!

> >If it does, I guarantee right now that I'll stop buying SR stuff and
> >keep what I've got. The original premise for SR (IMHO) was a
> >cyberpunk game where magic was just beginning to return to the earth.
> > The way the game's bg is written, you simply CAN'T get rid of the
> >magic and still have it be SR. You can LIMIT it, yes. But if it
> >totally gets removed from the game you no longer have SR, you have CP
> >2020.
>
> Agreed. But I could quite happily play Shadowrun if magic was never
> introduced to it.

Just to be different, I strongly disagree! (Although this isn't an attempt
to start a flame war, promise!). If you take away (or even minimize to a
great extent) the magic in Shadowrun, you don't have a game I'd touch with
a D&Desque 10' pole. I mean, you might as well go and pay CP2020, or any
other cyberpunk type game where guns and mods are god.... even the CP2020
alternate reality stuff seems to have realized how much more interesting
a bit of magic(k) makes things.

I personally think its a great shame that FASA seems to be de-emphasizing
the Enemy. Deemphasizing the immortal elves would also be a mistake, IMV,
but I don't see them going that far. I have run (and written) a great many
games that have involved these two elements (as well as many that haven't),
and I think they both add to the tapestry that is the Shadowrun setting....
remove the components, and the colour fades. Now, I must confess to finding
any game with more than a few minutes combat utterly boring (one thing SR
gets right is quick, lethal combat), so gun-heavy type games never get
my vote. If politics is the main focus, a bit of magic and the intrigue
added by such things as immortal elves, always helps.

Although I do risk creating a World of Darkness type Shadowrun. :-)

Take care,
Bracket.
Message no. 50
From: Geoff Skellams <geoff.skellams@*********.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 17:19:21 +1000
On Shadowrun Discussion, Bull[SMTP:chaos@*****.COM] wrote:
> I can say with fair accuracy that the game is NOT moving away from
magic.
> however, the world threatening plots that can only be stopped by a
> copmbined force of IE's, Dragons, and Super Corp Sponsored Runners is
> (hopefully) going the way of the dodo... The normal magic stuff
(i.e., the
> stuff from the Main Book and the Grimmy) is here to stay, though it
will
> get bit of retouching in SR3.
>
Personally, I think the shift in emphasis is trying to put magic
in perspective. According to the Awakenings book I reread chunks of last
night on the bus, there are only about 3-4 million magically active
people worldwide and that includes all the physads. The fixation of the
previous regime on magic related incidents put far too much emphasis on
the metaphysical.
It's like saying that all wars are fought with nuclear weapons.
We have them, but they're really in the background.
I'm not anti-magic. I really like it, it lets you do some really
hoopy stuff. But there is just too much emphasis on it.

> Toi be honest, I really like the *idea* behind the IE's and the
Horrors...
> They were even kinda cool way back when. I love the bugs. There's a
lot
> of stuff I really like. But let's face it, FASA was going through a
wierd
> time (Not-so-coincedentally enough, just before Mike was brought in)
where
> everything they did had IE and Horrors stamped all over it. And
EVERYONE
> was complaining about it. FASA listened, and though it's taken 3+
years to
> get the plotline through to the finish, FASA and Mike Mulvhill (With
help
> froma few others, Jak Koke among the biggest and brightest names:))
have
> managed to "clean house" and reset the stage.
>
I quite like the Horror concept as well (it allows for some
really cool Dark Conspiracy crossovers), but it shouldn't take over the
world. A few incidents here and there are cool, but not a destroy the
world level.

> One thing that Mike said at last year's Gen Con was that he really
wanted
> to try and get the focus of the game back on Shadowrunners. And let's
face
> it, most Shadowrunners aren;t going to leave the streets of Seattle
(or
> wherever their hometown happens to be. For generic SR, it's Seattle).
> hell, they're lucky if they ever make it out of their neighborhood.
>
This is a good thing. In recent years I've become a bit jaded
with Tom Clancy and his "Jack Ryan saves the world again" novels (in
some respects, it's good Ryan is now President, because Clancy can't
make him any more powerful, unless he wants to make Jack Ryan God). With
the main SR campaign emphasis on the world threatening magics &c, most
SR campaigns probably got escalated into the same realm.
Ultimately, by doing this, they theoretically extend the
lifespan of the game. If the horrors had continued, then the world would
have pretty well be stuffed. By effectively wiping them out and making
things more mundane oriented, it gives more scope for things to happen
in the future (because the world won't be destroyed - at least not like
that).

> <shrug>
>
> WHo knows... With SR3 and the revamps of all the main sourcebooks,
we'll
> see what comes next for SR... And of course, we'll see who likes it
and
> whop hates it...
>
> However, I emphatically say that FASA is on course... I don;t like
> everything they do, but hey, that's why I've been lobbing material and
> proposals at them lately... :] if you don;t like the game, try and
> rewrite it, officially :]

I'll agree with that. Perhaps what we are seeing at the moment is the
time when the wind goes out of the sails when a yacht tacks. Give it a
bit of time, the sails gets filled again and the yacht heads off in a
different direction.

I think the Dark Overlords know what they are doing.

cheers
Geoff
--
Geoff Skellams R&D - Tower Software
Email Address: geoff.skellams@*********.com.au
Homepage: http://www.towersoft.com.au/staff/geoff/
ICQ Number: 2815165

"That rates about a 9.5 on my weird-shit-o-meter"
- Will Smith in "Men in Black"
Message no. 51
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 11:28:34 EDT
In a message dated 5/5/98 3:34:43 PM !!!First Boot!!!, scrose@****.COM writes:

> > The Horrors are gone (good/bad/indifferent) thanks to a Dragon's
Sacrifice.
>
> IMO the Horrors where worth keeping... It looks like they want to get
> more into the tech side of things and move away from the mystical which
> is not the direction I would like to see SR move into...

From what I perceived of the Dragonheart Saga, and as Kenson has pointed out,
is that the way the book ended allowed for individual gm's to decide whether
any rouge horrors (The Enemy) made it through during the confusion of battle).

Mike (who has found out how to do a .sig file, but has yet to make one up)
Message no. 52
From: rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:09:26 -0500
>
>I was involved a somewhat heated debate on this topic at one point. I
>tend to like things mystical with strong tie ins to myth, legend and
>magic. If I wanted to play gritty cyberpunk I would be using a
different
>gameing system. :) Magic is what makes Shadowrun special and IMO a much
>enriched game by not being just one of many games in the cyberpunk
>gerne.
>
>

I'm with you, Sheldon; one of the things that attracted my group to the
game was the addition of magic and how FASA tied it all in with myth,
mysticism, and a logical explanation on how the astral, spells and
spirits all tied together and worked as a whole. I tried a CP campaign,
and a pretty punkish Spacemaster campaign, but they were too dark and
serious for those not into the real CP end of things. SR was a great
mesh of near-future punk, magic, and an inclusive background that
brought it all together. I have to say that FASA's support and
receptiveness to consumers and attitude all contributed to that success
as well.

>> But still, we play the same game... That's the beauty of SR, or any
other
>> RPG... Play like you damn want shall be the whole of the law, or
>> something :)
>
>This we can argee on at least... Do I think FASA is off base personally
>yes I do I agree with making the IE's not such a big big deal, but that
>is the only thing I like about the new direction.
>

The most fun we ever had role-playing has been romping through the two
Harley adventures, and I will continue to use the influence of the IE's
for years to come; others can focus on other aspects of the game, and
that is great. It makes the whole much greater that the sum of its
parts, and we all benefit from that.

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...
Message no. 53
From: rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:17:47 -0500
>
>>> and Azania and Amazonia, and with all the Japanese megacorps, I'm
>>> amazed there hasn't been a Japan sourcebook, or one for eastern
>>> Asia.
>>
>>FASAMike has directly stated that he sees no need or use for a
>>Japan sourcebook. While most of us may disagree, that's the way it
>>is. Me, I plan on putting my requests on all my product cards.
>
>Do you have a direct quote for this? <g> While I personally would find
>very little use for a Japan sourcebook, I certainly think there's
enough
>people that want it to warrant FASA finding a way to fit one into the
>schedule and timeline.
>


I'll second that one; the area is so rich with background and different
types of magic/spirits/atmosphere, it would be a great addition to the
game.

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...
Message no. 54
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 14:32:56 -0500
Gurth wrote:
> As I was typing this just now, I suddenly realized somebody big gets
>taken out of the game world in each year...

This reminds me of something JMS wrote about writing Babylon 5: (a
paraphrase) "every once in a while I look around with a gun in my hand
and think-will the story be more interesting without THAT character".
The point he was trying to make is that there is no better way to shake
things up than to remove something people were counting on.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 55
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 13:07:37 -0600
Mike Elkins wrote:
/
/ Gurth wrote:
/ > As I was typing this just now, I suddenly realized somebody big gets
/ >taken out of the game world in each year...
/
/ This reminds me of something JMS wrote about writing Babylon 5: (a
/ paraphrase) "every once in a while I look around with a gun in my hand
/ and think-will the story be more interesting without THAT character".
/ The point he was trying to make is that there is no better way to shake
/ things up than to remove something people were counting on.

Hmm... You know, I did that recently in my campaign and didn't even
realize what I was doing when I killed off a Dragon that was boxing
my story line. The players thought they had every thing figured out
until they saw the dragon killed in front of their eyes.

Now I'm rethinking my plan to leave the Bug hive in Denver (moved it
from Chicago for my game). It might be more interesting to have the
PCs wake up one morning to find that the UCAS has lifted the
quarentine and everything is back to normal. I wonder what level of
paranoia that will cause. <EGM>

-David
--
"Truth, like a torch, the more it's shook it shines."
- Sir William Hamilton
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 56
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 13:13:04 -0600
At 22:54 05/05/98 PDT, you wrote:
>>> Agreed. But I could quite happily play Shadowrun if magic was never
>>> introduced to it.
>>
>>Oh, definitely. But it'd really mess the entire game up to put in
>>magic and then take it out after having it for a decade
>
> I can't believe I'm reading this... if you don't like the magic... go
>play Cyberpunk. Magic is what made SR what it is.

<sigh>

I didn't say I didn't like the magic. But Shadowrun would still be
Shadowrun if it didn't have magic, it would just be different. During most
of my games magic barely enters into the equation at all -- it's that rare.
Then again, neither do guns in my game..

What *is* Shadowrun? Is it a game? A world? A world with magic? No. It's
whatever you want it to be.

-Adam J
-
http://www.interware.it/users/adamj \ fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ# 2350330
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ FreeRPG Webring \ TSS Productions
The Shadowrun Supplemental \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ RPGA Reviwer
Message no. 57
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 15:54:32 -0500
>
> At 22:54 05/05/98 PDT, you wrote:

> <sigh>
>
> I didn't say I didn't like the magic. But Shadowrun would still be
> Shadowrun if it didn't have magic, it would just be different. During most
> of my games magic barely enters into the equation at all -- it's that rare.
> Then again, neither do guns in my game..
>
> What *is* Shadowrun? Is it a game? A world? A world with magic? No. It's
> whatever you want it to be.
>
True, but for most of of, what makes it different from say COP2020 etc
is the unique combination of magic,matrix, and guns. :)
If you remove the magic, it removes some of the uniqueness. (Well for me
anyway).
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The universe doesn't have laws, it has habits. And habits can be broken.
Message no. 58
From: John Penta <johndevil@****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 17:22:22 -0500
At 10:33 AM 5/5/98 -0500, Sheldon Rose wrote:

> I am asking the question of exactly what the subject says. Is FASA
>drifting
> on/off course in it's storyline. I am not implementing a Spoiler
>Warning of
> any kind, so just in case anyone may think this is a "sensitive
>topic", you
> have been warned. NO BOOK is sacred in this post.

Ok. Everybody REALLY oughta put in some spoiler space, when discussing
Sourcebooks and stuff. IMO, SR has stayed kinda on-course, but FASA is
*definitely* getting IRRITATING with their new habit of putting a part of
the story in sourcebooks, and the rest in novels. I stopped by
Barnes&Noble the other day...the Barnes&Noble CHAIN, AFAIK, now doesn't
carry SR Novels. Why? Because FASA now has it going to game stores. my
local game store can't carry novels, simply due to distributor issues(as
the guy at the game store, HobbyMasters, said. not sure)....ARRRGH.
Another fact is also that a LOT of info is now contained in sourcebooks
ya see once in a milennium. My parents generally only let me spend a MAX
of $30 per 3 MONTHS on game stuff, which is beginning to make following
SR futile. Arg.

John

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Message no. 59
From: Alex van der Kleut <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:39:36 -0400
At 05:22 PM 5/5/98 -0500, John Penta wrote:
>Ok. Everybody REALLY oughta put in some spoiler space, when discussing
>Sourcebooks and stuff. IMO, SR has stayed kinda on-course, but FASA is
>*definitely* getting IRRITATING with their new habit of putting a part of
>the story in sourcebooks, and the rest in novels. I stopped by
>Barnes&Noble the other day...the Barnes&Noble CHAIN, AFAIK, now doesn't
>carry SR Novels. Why? Because FASA now has it going to game stores. my
>local game store can't carry novels, simply due to distributor issues(as
>the guy at the game store, HobbyMasters, said. not sure)....ARRRGH.
>Another fact is also that a LOT of info is now contained in sourcebooks
>ya see once in a milennium. My parents generally only let me spend a MAX
>of $30 per 3 MONTHS on game stuff, which is beginning to make following
>SR futile. Arg.

I think that you have a problem with your store. I was just in a
Waldenbooks yesterday and they had Technobable there. And I got it there a
few weeks ago, AFAIK when it first came out. The Barnes and Noble up the
street had it too. Talk to the manager, maybe they just don't order them at
that store because of low volume. Even if they don't order it in bulk, they
should be able to special order it for you. I know most of the chains
around here, including this B&N, will pre-order it for you, so you get it
first.

Sommers
Message no. 60
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 15:40:50 -0500
----------
> From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>

> But Shadowrun would still be
> Shadowrun if it didn't have magic, it would just be different.

Adam, I respect your work on this list greatly, but that has got to be
the most moronic phrase in the entire English Language, and likely quite a
few others. X would still be X if it didn't have Y, it would just be
different.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
"Death by a sword lasts but a moment, but a bard's scorn lasts
forever"
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
"Discretion is the better part of honor.... and innuendo the
better part of humor."
aka Ellegon, Working at making Cannon canon
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, mortal, for you are crunchy
and good with ketchup."
--------[Geek Code Block]-----------
GED/GSS d- s++:+ a-- C++ W w+ PS+.5 PE- Y+ t+
5+ X+ R*+.5 !tv+ b+.5 DI+ D- G e h !r-- !y+
-------[End Geek Code Block]-------
Message no. 61
From: Wraith <wraith@************.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:28:47 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: John Penta <johndevil@****.COM>


>At 10:33 AM 5/5/98 -0500, Sheldon Rose wrote:
>Ok. Everybody REALLY oughta put in some spoiler space, when discussing
>Sourcebooks and stuff. IMO, SR has stayed kinda on-course, but FASA is
>*definitely* getting IRRITATING with their new habit of putting a part of
>the story in sourcebooks, and the rest in novels. I stopped by
>Barnes&Noble the other day...the Barnes&Noble CHAIN, AFAIK, now doesn't
>carry SR Novels. Why? Because FASA now has it going to game stores. my
>local game store can't carry novels, simply due to distributor issues(as
>the guy at the game store, HobbyMasters, said. not sure)

Um, check with the manager of Barnes&Noble. I've been getting most of my
Shadowrun books there recently. However, I haven't been able to find ED
novels there. Most likely that store decided not to carry them for some
reason, or, SR is so popular in your area that they're always sold out by
the time you get there :)

Wraith
Message no. 62
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 17:17:42 -0600
At 15:40 06/05/98 -0500, you wrote:

>> But Shadowrun would still be
>> Shadowrun if it didn't have magic, it would just be different.
>
> Adam, I respect your work on this list greatly, but that has got
to be
>the most moronic phrase in the entire English Language, and likely quite a
>few others. X would still be X if it didn't have Y, it would just be
>different.

Great. Lasting impact!

This goes back to the statement that you snipped: What *is* Shadowrun? And
more specifically, what makes it Shadowrun? IMO it's a little bit of
everything -- the magic, the attitude, the cyberware, the matrix,
everything that could possibly be in the sixth world. True, if you take
the Awakening out, no meta's, no paranormals, it will be drastically
different.

Todays world would still be todays world if China went Democratic, Russia
went back Communist, France and England merged, and Canda took over the
USA. It would just be different. Way different! But it would still be
late 20th century Earth.

While I could have worded my statement alot better, I stand by it -- Magic
isn't all that makes Shadowrun Shadowrun.

-Adam J
-
http://www.interware.it/users/adamj \ fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ# 2350330
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ FreeRPG Webring \ TSS Productions
The Shadowrun Supplemental \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ RPGA Reviwer
Message no. 63
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 18:23:12 -0500
----------
> From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>

> While I could have worded my statement alot better, I stand by it --
Magic
> isn't all that makes Shadowrun Shadowrun.

True, but its a major ingredient in what makes our Shadowrun our
Shadowrun. You take it out, and it tastes like a cake where someone
forgot the baking soda.
Message no. 64
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:41:27 +0000
On 5 May 98 at 18:46, MC23 wrote:

> Once upon a time, losthalo wrote;
[SNIP]

> It's simple, FASA painted themselves in a corner with Shadowrun
> in
> that everything happens in your home city. Why would the general
> player of Shadowrun buy a book on Japan when all his character's
> career is going to be in Seattle? Until FASA changes the direction
> of how Shadowrun adventures work (basically to involve traveling)
> then don't expect to see anything on other cities unless you look
> for them on the net.
I am not so sure that it is a corner in either a game world sense or
in a game publishing sense.

The key to survival in the shadows is knowledge of the local turf.
Oh, there are a few indiviuals who can move from area to area, but
the rest use their local knowledge to survive. They know where to get
things, information, where to hide, who to talk. One can have a long
and sucessful career in one city. You can also have a real short life
on the lam in a strange town.

From a sales point of view the game can be played and played well
with just the rulebook. Once they find out what a good game it is
then they start buying books. The key is to get them to buy the first
one. And it easier to sell a single book rather then a $50 plus stack
of books. AD&D periodically had that problem (sold them not played
them)

The corner FASA did paint them selves into is the restriction on the
legal movement of key equipment needed by a major segment of players.
That is guns and illegal cyber and bio wear. This limits the movement
of some types of charactors. Now with smuggling there may be ways
around some of them. Then it becomes much less risky to change
countries.




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

====================================================
Those who are too intelligent to engage in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 65
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:35:51 -0700
----------
> From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
> Date: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 4:23 PM
>
> ----------
> > From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
>
> > While I could have worded my statement alot better, I stand by it --
> Magic
> > isn't all that makes Shadowrun Shadowrun.
>
> True, but its a major ingredient in what makes our Shadowrun our
> Shadowrun. You take it out, and it tastes like a cake where someone
> forgot the baking soda.

I feel this deserves a Cthulhu analogy. =)

FASA taking magic out of Shadowrun (and with it all the metaraces, given
the SR cosmology) would be like Chaosium taking everything supernatural out
of Call of Cthulhu. Just *fwink*, one day they're all gone. No one knows
why. Sure, you could still play the game using just deranged mass murders,
obscure-yet-pointless cults, spooky-but-empty houses, but what would really
be the point? Sure, it's the same world, but without that horror beyond
human comprehension, you might as well be playing... Well, I don't even
know what game it would be. It wouldn't be CoC. Similarly, SR wouldn't be
SR without magic.
Message no. 66
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:38:47 +1000
Nexx writes:
>> From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
>
>> While I could have worded my statement alot better, I stand by it --
>Magic
>> isn't all that makes Shadowrun Shadowrun.
>
>True, but its a major ingredient in what makes our Shadowrun our
>Shadowrun. You take it out, and it tastes like a cake where someone
>forgot the baking soda.


<clueless look>
You put baking soda in cake??
</clueless look>

Okay, just to make this contribution to the debate slightly more intelligent
than that (I'll be the first to admit that I "make" my cakes by going to the
local bakery), magic is _not_ the be-all and end-all of Shadowrun, anymore
than decking or rigging is. I've run a few campaigns in Shadowrun with
little or no magic, or decking, or rigging.

I must admit that I'd be sad to see magic taken out of SR. It is, IMHO, SR's
distinguishing characteristic that it does have the fantasy element.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 67
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 20:52:49 -0400
At 02:16 AM 5/6/98 -0500, you wrote:

If politics is the main focus, a bit of magic and the intrigue
>added by such things as immortal elves, always helps.

Frankly, having enormously powerful (in relation to the PCs) manipulators
behind the scenes tends to strip away the illusion of free will, and the
idea that the PCs are important to the campaign. It's the SR equivalent of
high-level types tagging along with low-level adventurers in AD&D. It can
be overdone _so_ easily. Let the PCs live their lives, involved in
intrigues on their level, etc. Let them meet a degree of magic that is 1)
appropriate to their power level, and 2) that is consistent with the world
(i.e., 1% magically active, and varying types of magicians and adepts
divide it up from there, it's rare with a capital R).

The IEs are just too much of a good thing, if used at all it must be
-sparingly-, the same as, say, dragons, or vampires... There is enormous
potential for intrigue in SR even if you are only talking about your
street-level group of runners, their fixers and contacts, and the local
crime scene. Yakuza, Mafia, Seoulpa, the Star, corps muddying their hands
hiring the various 'mobs', gangs... there is plenty of room for intrigue
there without ever bringing in magic, metahumans, or Immortal Elves. Throw
in an old enemy or three, or a questionable romance, etc. ...
More intrigue than you can shake a stick at.

I can imagine Harlequin making -an- appearance in a campaign with your
average group of street runners. Beyond that, their lives 1) should get
very difficult, as Harley is involved in shite waaaay out of their league
["What do you know about this elf? Don't tell me you know jack, you've
worked with him at least twice..."], 2) they should have their heads
examined if they willingly get involved in this stuff: "And never, ever
cut a deal with a dragon."


losthalo@********.comwhileyouarelisteningyourwillingattentionismakingyoumore
andmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome.

"Some things are true whether you believe them or not."
Message no. 68
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 21:57:51 EDT
In a message dated 5/5/98 4:05:56 PM US Eastern Standard Time, gurth@******.NL
writes:

> And that's what each of these years tends to bring us. The election year
> saw Dunkelzahn get killed. The crime year started with O'Malley getting
> his head shot off. The corp year has a megacorp going under (I haven't got
> the books yet, so I don't know the details). As I was typing this just
> now, I suddenly realized somebody big gets taken out of the game world in
> each year...
>
GOOD!!! Then maybe the "Year of the Comet" will see Lofwyr finally getting
his...

-K (who finally figured out the "Arrow of Red Dragon Slaying" joke...
Message no. 69
From: Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 04:21:19 +0200
> If politics is the main focus, a bit of magic and the intrigue
>>added by such things as immortal elves, always helps.
>
>Frankly, having enormously powerful (in relation to the PCs) manipulators
>behind the scenes tends to strip away the illusion of free will, and the
>idea that the PCs are important to the campaign. It's the SR equivalent of
>high-level types tagging along with low-level adventurers in AD&D. It can
>be overdone _so_ easily. Let the PCs live their lives, involved in
>intrigues on their level, etc. Let them meet a degree of magic that is 1)
>appropriate to their power level, and 2) that is consistent with the world
>(i.e., 1% magically active, and varying types of magicians and adepts
>divide it up from there, it's rare with a capital R).

1) I don't consider like this. I give an opposition (magic or not) based on
the guys who send it, whatever the power of PCs. If they mess up with one
of the big 8, then they must prepare themselves to suffer big assault. My
players are quite used to it. So, if they deal with a minor group and have
to suffer a big reply, they can think about something strange.

2) I do agree with it but you also must consider that makes them important
people and so are more likely to deal with runners. You must also consider
that this proportion is bigger in some areas (I'm not sure but I remember
Tir having 3% of them). Also, mages from other countries tend to go to UCAS
because they hope they can gain some power/money/whatever there and they're
most likely to be right...
The last point is that there must something like 1 runner per 10,000 or
100,000 but runners tend to encounter a lot of them ! :)

>The IEs are just too much of a good thing, if used at all it must be
>-sparingly-, the same as, say, dragons, or vampires... There is enormous
>potential for intrigue in SR even if you are only talking about your
>street-level group of runners, their fixers and contacts, and the local
>crime scene. Yakuza, Mafia, Seoulpa, the Star, corps muddying their hands
>hiring the various 'mobs', gangs... there is plenty of room for intrigue
>there without ever bringing in magic, metahumans, or Immortal Elves. Throw
>in an old enemy or three, or a questionable romance, etc. ...
>More intrigue than you can shake a stick at.
>
>I can imagine Harlequin making -an- appearance in a campaign with your
>average group of street runners. Beyond that, their lives 1) should get
>very difficult, as Harley is involved in shite waaaay out of their league
>["What do you know about this elf? Don't tell me you know jack, you've
>worked with him at least twice..."], 2) they should have their heads
>examined if they willingly get involved in this stuff: "And never, ever
>cut a deal with a dragon."

I totally agree. However, I massively use dragons and IE... But they almost
never see them. It's kind of GM pleasure. I imagine big plots from some of
them and the way they fight against each other with the runners in the
middle. They think that runs are anodine but they are linked in some way to
the other ones... And yes, mystery is definitely something that makes
things interesting to players. That's the main reason why my players never
read SR sourcebooks. After some years, the PCs (the favorites because I
GMed 3 campaigns) have become quite powerful. Now, they have to face them
and to play with them. Actually, that makes things a bit different...
That's why I started an other campaign. But, from time to time
(approximately once a month), they play these characters and they are a lot
more comfortable with their situation because they're powerful but do not
have sufficient knowledge to really be able to handle that...

- Cobra.
Message no. 70
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 23:34:54 EDT
In a message dated 5/5/98 9:25:33 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
runefo@***.UIO.NO writes:

> > Technically Three, I forgot to count myself here...
> >
> > -K
> Oh, you vote OFF? Damn. I have to vote ON, then. ;)
>
I knew it!!! You would do that just to be, what was it you called me again???
"arrogant, smug <insert ancestral somethingorother>??? :P Yeah, well the
same right back at you too....(removes white glove, slaps once across both
-BUTT-cheeks for a challenge)....

Anyway, the Immortals are a bit much, but not beyond reproach, but then our
gaming style here is admittedly different from many. But some of things that
are happening are

Okay, I'll say it. I don't think that "the Comet" or any other force is going
to remove the magic from SR (all that money paid to Steve K. and then they
don't use it??? I don't think so :P). But I guess I am just rapidly
reaching the point where I just keep thinking that too many changes are going
to be made.

in short...I do NOT want to play Cyberpunk or variation thereon...I want to
play Shadowrun....I guess finding the right balance between Magic and
Technology remains the problem...

-K
Message no. 71
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 00:49:55 -0400
I have a mixed vote, I guess. I like what FASA is doing, but I think they
are doing it to quickly. They did the same thing to Battletech. I was
perfectly happy before the Fourth Succession War, then they spring that on
us, and then, God help us, the frigging Clans show up and screwed up
everything. Same problems with power curve, too.

Point is, most groups meet once a week, for maybe four to six hours. In
that time, you can fit _maybe_ a couple of days of game time in, if you
really hurry. So plots unfold slowly. By the time you get to a point where
you can incorporate something, some new thing comes out, and you sort of
feel like you have to hurry to catch it. I know you don't have to, but you
still feel that way.

As far as the "year of" style goes, I think the idea is not just to say "oh
this will be fun", but to open a new _kind_ of shadowrunning. Cyberpirates,
for example, details a sea-bourne campaign. Fields of Fire introduced
mercenary campaigns. Bug City, and so on. Width the Underworld Sourcebook,
you get a good feel for running and organized crime campaign. BitB was
slightly different, in that it offered a sort of different mind set for
running. BitB forces players to think a bit more like fixers ("this is
happening, how can I take best advantage of it") than most other runs. It
also provides a plausible way to involve amatures in the running biz (more
low-level corpers might use runners) and dealing with amatures tends to
make good stories, as mistakes are much more interesting. Seems like FASA
is trying to do more of this kind of product, exposing the breadth of the
stories that can be told in the world of Shadowrun.

I like this, but while breadth is good, I think depth is more _useful_ to
me as a GM. I would love it if they slowed down the pace of the big plot
twisting books to a two year turn-around instead of one, and came out with
more depth-based products (at least as deep as the Seattle Sourcebook) per
year.

I also like their track system method for adventures. It gives me the kind
of info I look for in an adventure book and not much else. The ones I've
seen also let me set the power curve, which is useful.

One thing I've yet to see if I like is there handling of magic. SRs magic
system borrowed a lot from "real" magic, and had a very good feel to it.
From what I've seen the only person who currently grooves into this feel is
Steve, who is not a FASA employee. This concerns me a bit, as it may mean
more new magic rules that originate from a "this would be cool" feeling
instead of "a logical extension of the magic system would be" kind of
feeling. We'll see on this one.

I'm satified with current handling of I.E.s. (BTW, did Tom Dowd ever reveal
why Elves and Dragons don't seem to like each other much before he left SR?
Did that secret "die" with him?)

As far as "where do I want to go today?": The path I'd like for SR is
definately not the one FASA will take. I really like more street level
plots, and FASA tends towards the Epic. I'd love to see an adventure book
that is geared mostly towards a gang campaign. The book would give extreme
detail on maybe ten blocks, the gang's turf. Even if you didn't run a gang
campaign, you could have runners enter the turf for one reason or another.
That's the type of stuff a really like -- exactlt the type of stuff FASA
does not make (with possible exception of Seattle Sourcebook).

Wordman

"Stressed from the battle, but not fatigued.
My hat's made of metal to avoid debris."
-- N.W.H. "Buried and Bald"
Message no. 72
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 00:49:46 -0400
At 14:33 05/05/98 +0000, you wrote:
>> Does anyone remember the
>> little slogan you see about Shadowrun in the game shop posters?
>> "Where man meets machine in an age of magic". The way things are
>> going, I wouldn't be surprised if Haley's Comet takes all of the
>> magic with it when it leaves.

Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA> wrote:
>HAHAHA!
>ROFL! ROFL! ROFL!
>I'm going to have to save this post.
>(Sorry if it seems like I'm laughing at you here. I'll shut up.)

I can vouch for Adam that he's not laughing at the original poster. Adam, I
know why you're laughing, and it's enough to drive a man to drink.

Wordman
Message no. 73
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 00:49:39 -0400
Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA> wrote:
> While I could have worded my statement alot better, I stand by it -- Magic
> isn't all that makes Shadowrun Shadowrun.

Easily abusable rules are what make Shadowrun Shadowrun.

Wordman
Message no. 74
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 00:56:02 -0400
|> From: Nexx
|> Sent: May 6, 1998 4:41 PM
|> Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?

|> Adam, I respect your work on this list greatly, but that
|> has got to be
|> the most moronic phrase in the entire English Language, and
|> likely quite a
|> few others. X would still be X if it didn't have Y, it would just be
|> different.

Phew, I was hesitant in answering Adam's post due to my recent history,
but was hoping someone else had caught this. If someone had given this
phrase to my teacher when I was taking Critical Thinking, they would have
flunked. Basically he is saying P= !P which is not possible.

I would believe that Adam was trying to say that Shadowrun without magic
would be different, but still close enough not to matter.

It is my opinion that this is wrong, very wrong. While it may not be
apparent all the time, magic in Shadowrun has greatly influenced things. The
Tir Tan Gire(sp) for example would not exist, and that is a big difference.
The NANs would not have been able to reclaim any territory. And, the day to
day things that are not necessarily noticed would be very different.

So I'd say that to state that Shadowrun would be basically the same
without the magic is being incorrect. But that is my opinion.

Just because you have scenarios that don't make much use of magic is
irrelevant, because the magic is there in the background and does influence
things.

Katt Freyson
ICQ UIN 3337155
Montreal, Canada
http://www.dsuper.net/~katt
Message no. 75
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 15:06:36 +1000
Katt Freyson writes:
> Phew, I was hesitant in answering Adam's post due to my recent history,
>but was hoping someone else had caught this. If someone had given this
>phrase to my teacher when I was taking Critical Thinking, they would have
>flunked. Basically he is saying P= !P which is not possible.


I've seen comparision statements in programming that use that logic,
though... :)

(Hmm... did your teacher in Critical Thinking admit the possibility of
paradox? What about unary logic (where only one "choice" or condition is
possible, and so is also the negation of that choice or condition)?)

Fundamental rule though: Don't pick on a person's grammar. :)

> It is my opinion that this is wrong, very wrong. While it may not be
>apparent all the time, magic in Shadowrun has greatly influenced things.
The
>Tir Tan Gire(sp) for example would not exist, and that is a big difference.
>The NANs would not have been able to reclaim any territory. And, the day to
>day things that are not necessarily noticed would be very different.


I dunno. Tir Tangire could still exist without magic (it broke away from the
NAN peacefully, and its squabbles with Cal Free State were solved with
standard military force as well as magic). The NAN could have come about,
given a disastorous population plummet (like, um, that caused by VITAS), and
a strong, populist, and well-equipped resistance movement. Magic just made
it easier. I admit the world picture wouldn't be exactly the same, but the
politcal world as portrayed by SR is not _dependent_ on magic to have come
about.

But IMHO, it wouldn't be SR without the phrase "Never deal with a dragon".
:)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 76
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 15:10:21 +1000
Wordman writes:
>I'm satified with current handling of I.E.s. (BTW, did Tom Dowd ever reveal
>why Elves and Dragons don't seem to like each other much before he left SR?
>Did that secret "die" with him?)


Well, didn't the elves try to exterminate the dragons in Earthdawn?

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 77
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 22:37:15 PDT
>While I could have worded my statement alot better, I stand by it --
Magic
>isn't all that makes Shadowrun Shadowrun.
>
>-Adam J

I disagree.
first off, What *is* Shadowrun? It's a RPG set in a cyberpunkish
future where magic has returned. Shadowrun defined. What is salt?
Sodium Chloride. Salt defined.
If you took magic away it would not be Shadowrun. It may be an RPG
set in a cyberpunkish future. But that describes at least two other
games. Just like if you took the sodium from salt, it would be
chlorine, not "salt without sodium".
My point being Shadowrun is a sum of many elements, not the least of
which being magic. Take ANY of those elements away and you don't have
Shadowrun.
I see your point about 20th cen earth, Adam, and I understand. But
that's a physical thing- our modern timeline. Of course if that changed
it would still be what it is(however bastardized). Shadowrun is a
fictional, abstract concept. Which is MUCH easier to change or alter.

-Vagabond
"Under wandering stars I've grown"
________________________________________________________
<nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 78
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 01:33:34 -0400
At 12:49 AM 5/7/98 -0400, you wrote:

(me too)

>I have a mixed vote, I guess. I like what FASA is doing, but I think they
>are doing it to quickly. They did the same thing to Battletech. I was
>perfectly happy before the Fourth Succession War, then they spring that on
>us, and then, God help us, the frigging Clans show up and screwed up
>everything. Same problems with power curve, too.

Not only yes, but hell yes. Not only do I like Btech better without all
the fancier weapons and such of the clans and 3050 Inner Sphere tech, but I
think some of the ideas introduced into SR did the same thing. Both lost
some of the atmosphere they'd worked to build, and also undercut certain
ideas built into the game that I enjoyed...

For instance: Essence was once both a limiting factor on power, -and- a
roleplaying hook for those who pursued power. If you want speed, you have
to get The Wire. You get The Wire, you lose a bit of... you. Every trip
under the knife (and maybe what you have to do to get those trips under the
knife, too) changes you, and not just in the way the cyber makes you a
better killer. Two things undercut this, namely bioware and physical
adepts. Now, you could have faster speed than an unenhanced character
without essence loss (and the personality changes associated with it).
That, for me, is where SR began to lose its grit and become fantasy in a
technologically-advanced setting (yeah, I realize this is a-way back in 1st
ed :).

This is a cyberpunk setting, or was: everything is supposed to come with a
price.

This was even true of magicians, though in a different way. They had their
life pretty much taken up by being a magician. You either dedicated your
life to it, were defined by being a magician, or you were not. If you were
not, ou might do some magic, but you'd never reach anything like your real
potential. Obsession was not really optional.

>One thing I've yet to see if I like is there handling of magic. SRs magic
>system borrowed a lot from "real" magic, and had a very good feel to it.
>>From what I've seen the only person who currently grooves into this feel is
>Steve, who is not a FASA employee. This concerns me a bit, as it may mean
>more new magic rules that originate from a "this would be cool" feeling
>instead of "a logical extension of the magic system would be" kind of
>feeling. We'll see on this one.

I agree that some aspects of the magic system were introduced without
concern for where they might lead, or their effect on the atmosphere of the
game..

>As far as "where do I want to go today?": The path I'd like for SR is
>definately not the one FASA will take. I really like more street level
>plots, and FASA tends towards the Epic.

Exactly. SR started as gritty, street-level, with a little glamour for the
shadowrunners (with Sally depicted as much like the freewheeling AD&D
adventurer who runs from one big treasure score to the next). I mean, they
met in fraggin' clubs to make business deals... and that worked somehow.

"I hear you got a shadowrun cookin' Sally. Haven't heard how hot the fire
is, though."

(/me too)


losthalo@********.comwhileyouarelisteningyourwillingattentionismakingyoumore
andmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome.

"Some things are true whether you believe in them or not."
Message no. 79
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 01:41:20 EDT
In a message dated 5/7/98 12:14:08 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
robert.watkins@******.COM writes:

> >I'm satified with current handling of I.E.s. (BTW, did Tom Dowd ever reveal
> >why Elves and Dragons don't seem to like each other much before he left
SR?
> >Did that secret "die" with him?)
>
>
> Well, didn't the elves try to exterminate the dragons in Earthdawn?
>
Yes, and one could say that the Sphinx had a lot to do with the outcome of
that discussion....hmmm....could be...

Just exactly who did I mention that too the other day????

-K
Message no. 80
From: Robert Nesius <nesius@******.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 23:27:16 -0700
My 2 cents:
FASA - On/Off Course? Holding my breath until SR3. Then I'll decide wether
or not to give them a thumbs up or the finger.

Magic in SR: I liked the combination of magic and tech. But what really
made the magic click was the very intuitive and slick mechanics for it. No,
they are not perfect, but they were darn good. I'm re-reading the Grim II
now, and I'm still impressed.

Pace of story being pushed by FASA: Agree with Wordman - too fast. Two
year cycle would be better.

I also think that the dragon assissination seemed "forced."

A more "street" oriented approach would be a lot of fun. Unfortuantely, while
FASA's source books go along way towards adding clarity to their world, and
pushing broad story arcs along, they don't do a lot to emphasize, encourage,
and strengthen real roleplaying. It seems like it's all more toys,
background, and rules.

-Rob
Message no. 81
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 04:00:07 -0400
This is silly.
Of course SR is ON course.

Maybe not the course some of us would like, but hey, it's FASA's game.
FASA is a corp.
They're going to go with what the majority of the paying public wants.

FASA has gotten a TON of flack over the IE's Horrors and other assorted
high-power nasties
They responded by toning them down.

Please note - IE's and Horrors have NOT been removed from the canon SR
world!
If you want to use these in your game, feel free, you are still well within
the canon of SR.

As for the Bugs, c'mon, we can't even control the mosquito problem now.
Do you think they're ALL gone in the Sixth world, now that they're
intelligent and magical?!?
Bug City was an excellent setting, but it's been out for several years.
FASA has always kept their game worlds moving along, starting with
Battletech.
As RL time progresses, so does game time.
IMO you couldn't leave a problem like Bug City alone for too long and keep
it realistic.
The UCAS govt. could only keep the quarantine for so long.

As for magic. I don't feel that current supplements have reduced it one
bit.
Altered the feel of things, yes. The "Wild Surge" in CFS, and other
elements have altered the balance of magic vs. tech, but magic is still an
integral part of the SR universe.

Lest you think that I'm an unabashed FASA-ass-kisser (Like Bull ;-)) there
are a few elements of the game that I am NOT happy with.

The "Year of" stuff has the potential to become overdone.
However to be fair, it does seem to be working for FASA.
It certainly allows them to tailor their source materials for the year
around a central theme, and as long as it keeps working, I'll keep buying.

I HATE the "Adventure Track" system, even though I can't think of a better
way to allow the maximum number of people to get the maximum use out of a
single game supplement.
On a similar note, I'm tired of adventures that do NOT focus on runners.
The Missions book was largely useless for me, as I don't have anyone
playing a cop, a fed, etc.
The adventures were solid, but of limited use.

P&P was a serious letdown.
I LOVE paranormal critters! Ever since FAS came out with the Monster Manual
.. er I mean PAoNA ;-) I have used a TON of critters in my games.
I was really looking forward to a NEW critters book, and hoped that P&P
would deliver.
It didn't giving us a couple stupid bugs, and bats, and completely glossing
over the idea of a rigger controlled critter! (A concept I have run whole
campaigns on!!!)

So IMO while FASA (of course) has room for improvement, the game itself is
solid, and moving forward.
Where exactly it's going remains to be seen.

But that's half the fun anyway! ;-)

Tinner
.sig nuked by HD crash.
Message no. 82
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 05:27:31 -0400
Once upon a time, Ereskanti wrote;

>> Well, didn't the elves try to exterminate the dragons in Earthdawn?
>>
>Yes, and one could say that the Sphinx had a lot to do with the outcome of
>that discussion....hmmm....could be...

The Sphinx was created to look over Theran's rule. Nothing to do
with dragon's there. Thera has had trouble with dragons before but Thera
is also a mixed nation and not Elven. Sphinx has just sat there since its
creation. The rulers of Thera do not know if the Spinx will ever move but
they still watch what they do (getting a little braver with time).

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 83
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 05:32:40 -0400
Once upon a time, Robert Nesius wrote;

>A more "street" oriented approach would be a lot of fun. Unfortunately,
while
>FASA's source books go along way towards adding clarity to their world, and
>pushing broad story arcs along, they don't do a lot to emphasize, encourage,
>and strengthen real roleplaying. It seems like it's all more toys,
>background, and rules.

I'm curious, how is a game supplement supposed to emphasize,
encourage, and strengthen real roleplaying? That sounds more like the
players responsibility. Games are just supposed to present rules and
background for you to do this in. No book can make a munchkin play by the
rules or make someone roleplay when they are not going to.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are,
not as they ought to be."
-The Devil's Dictionary, Ambrose Bierce

I am MC23
Message no. 84
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 02:59:41 -0500
> Re: FASA's On/Off Course? (Panther , Tue 9:33)
>
> > Does anyone remember the
> > little slogan you see about Shadowrun in the game shop posters?
> > "Where man meets machine in an age of magic". The way things are
> > going, I wouldn't be surprised if Haley's Comet takes all of the
> > magic with it when it leaves.

You admit to playing less SR thanothergames (what others?), and more
mages / magic campaigns when you do. Do you have something AGAINST more
"mundane" campaigns / characters / games? I personally LIKE to see a
non-mage character do something useful and important (besides protecting
the mage).

> If it does, I guarantee right now that I'll stop buying SR stuff and
> keep what I've got. The original premise for SR (IMHO) was a
> cyberpunk game where magic was just beginning to return to the earth.
> The way the game's bg is written, you simply CAN'T get rid of the
> magic and still have it be SR. You can LIMIT it, yes. But if it
> totally gets removed from the game you no longer have SR, you have CP
> 2020.

I'm sure FASA is not on any sort of general "anti-magic" kick. They
mayhave been spending a while emphasizing major NON-MAGICAL events, and
letting magic remain at a "steady state", which has not happened almost
since the games introduction. Hell, people STILL find new tricks for
old magic in the basic book.

Second, really powerful magic (including mage PC's who are better than
99% of corp sec magic forces) make for problematic world developement,
so some balance needs to be restored to the magic system. Some magic
plotlines / rules were introduced with poor consideration for larger
eventual impact, and need to be refined.

>
> > A [magic] de-emphasization turns this
> > into another Rifts, where we buy more books just to see what new
> > toys we've been provided with, rather than what it was intended to
> > be: a point where both magic and technology, two otherwise
> > irreconcilable forces, were both necessary to get shit done.

Another "Rifts"? As opposed to another "Mage: the Assension"?
:) As
for the "new gadget / book" factor- how many mages go WITHOUT intiating
for more than a few runs? About 0%? I'd say thats a hefty "new gadget
factor" that should be looked at. Just because 90% of the munchi mage
stuff is all in one book doesn't mean its better for the game....
In actuality, creating new areas of interest removes no utility from
mages, it just shows how other developements are just as interesting /
threatening / important.
New mundane gear is often doubly imbalancing in the hands of mages, and
should be done with more concern for "interest" than power escalation.
I'm pretty sure it will be.
There is also no evidence that future TECH (and general rule) revisons
won't be just as limiting as future MAGIC revisions. AFAIK, to the
contrary. SR3 could do a LOT in that area.

>
> Not only that, but by forcing us to have more firepower and ppl on a
> team, it attempts to force us to play merc campaigns
>

Well, if deckers and riggers were more common than mages, which as PC's
AND published NPC's, they ain't, and less of a pain to use (say, as
quick, simple, and half as effective as mages), they would fill many of
the role mages do now: scouting, nonviolent security nuetralization,
misidirection, intellegence, and concealment.
Also, Mundane =/= machine gun toting yahoo (ie, merc sterotype, which
you have not gone beyond here), and saying so is offensive to people who
play intellegent mundanes who prefer non lethal (even SOCIAL) solutions
to problems. Iv'e seen plenty a mage who's generic solution was "I'm
invisible, spell-locked. I Cast Fireball."

> > > >One OFF
> > >
> > > Two with mine.
> > Three..
> Make it four

Two ON, I believe. From what I know, the arco shutdown stuff ROCKS,
and has some very cool "larger implications". Could make bug city look
like- well, a bunch of stupid bugs.

-Mongoose
Message no. 85
From: Martin Steffens <msteffens@********.IE>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 12:49:07 +0
On 5 May 98 at 17:24, Cobra wrote:


> I totally agree. What made SR really innovative was that magic was
> well developed and managed. I tend to think that Mike doesn't like
> much those magic threads and, IMO, it makes SR storyline a bit flat.
> If the dragon heart trilogy was cool, it seems to be the end of the
> old SR line... When I have a look at hte different storyline
> contributors, I see the best with Nigel Findley. Perhaps SR has gone
> with his death...

Like others I think it's more a case of getting things back into
balance again. I remember that a lot of people on the list tended to
rant a lot about the IE influence, and I for once are quite happy
that they've been (or are going to) taken down a peg or two. It was
slowly turning into a Magical Mistery Tour and the world always
seemed to be on the brick of extinsion by some kind of magical
monster. It reminded me a lot of the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying
Game.
Personally I think that humanity (including all other species) was
nasty enough to keep the life of a shadowrunner interesting.

Enough ramblings in the style of "In my time we had some REAL
shadowrunners, we didn't need mr pansy Harlequin to safe our buns,
rant, rant"

Add one to the ON camp.

Martin Steffens
IT co-ordinator
Arthouse Multimedia Centre for the Arts
Curved Street, Temple Bar, Dublin 2, Ireland
phone: +353 (1) 6056800 fax: +353 (1) 6056801
e-mail: msteffens@********.ie
www: http://www.arthouse.ie
Message no. 86
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 07:43:37 -0600
Nexx wrote:
/
/ ----------
/ > From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
/
/ > While I could have worded my statement alot better, I stand by it --
/ Magic
/ > isn't all that makes Shadowrun Shadowrun.
/
/ True, but its a major ingredient in what makes our Shadowrun our
/ Shadowrun. You take it out, and it tastes like a cake where someone
/ forgot the baking soda.

I'd use a different analogy. Shadowrun without magic would be like
chocolate cake without chocolate. It would still be a good yellow
cake. If you were jonesing for chocolate cake you would be very
dissapointed. But if you didn't know that chocolate was an option
you would be happy with the yellow cake.

-David
--
"Truth, like a torch, the more it's shook it shines."
- Sir William Hamilton
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 87
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 11:00:20 -0400
Katt Freyson wrote:
>|> Adam, I respect your work on this list greatly, but that
>|> has got to be
>|> the most moronic phrase in the entire English Language, and
>|> likely quite a
>|> few others. X would still be X if it didn't have Y, it would just be
>|> different.
>
> Phew, I was hesitant in answering Adam's post due to my recent history,
>but was hoping someone else had caught this. If someone had given this
>phrase to my teacher when I was taking Critical Thinking, they would have
>flunked. Basically he is saying P= !P which is not possible.

Err, maybe you should talk to your teacher again... That's not what
he's saying. X and Y are *different*. X != Y. Or do you deny that
Shadowrun would still be Shadowrun without, say, DocWagon? Sure,
DocWagon plays *a part* in the world, but it isn't really necessary.
The world would feel the same 99% of the time, because DocWagon isn't
a requirement for Shadowrun. Now, whether magic is a requirement
for Shadowrun is another question...

> I would believe that Adam was trying to say that Shadowrun without magic
>would be different, but still close enough not to matter.
>
> It is my opinion that this is wrong, very wrong. While it may not be
>apparent all the time, magic in Shadowrun has greatly influenced things. The
>Tir Tan Gire(sp) for example would not exist, and that is a big difference.

Tir Tairngire. Why wouldn't it? You could still have IEs without
magic - it'd just be due to high tech.

>The NANs would not have been able to reclaim any territory. And, the day to
>day things that are not necessarily noticed would be very different.

So the NAN uses nukes and assault rifles instead of volcanoes.

> So I'd say that to state that Shadowrun would be basically the same
>without the magic is being incorrect. But that is my opinion.

Oh, I agree. I don't think that SR without magic would be the same.

> Just because you have scenarios that don't make much use of magic is
>irrelevant, because the magic is there in the background and does influence
>things.

Well, it makes some stuff easier but mainly it makes the world much
more mysterious.

James Ojaste
Message no. 88
From: JD <germany@*****************.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:27:26 -0600
>As far as "where do I want to go today?": The path I'd like for SR is
>definately not the one FASA will take. I really like more street level
>plots, and FASA tends towards the Epic. I'd love to see an adventure
book
>that is geared mostly towards a gang campaign. The book would give
extreme
>detail on maybe ten blocks, the gang's turf. Even if you didn't run a
gang
>campaign, you could have runners enter the turf for one reason or
another.
>That's the type of stuff a really like -- exactlt the type of stuff
FASA
>does not make (with possible exception of Seattle Sourcebook).
>
>Wordman
>


This is what I agree with. I would like to see more "realistic"
runners, both in the novels and in the game. I have played (and GMed)
many games where the players get out of control, because of what the
books were like. New players are especially bad about this. They
either come from another system where this is prevelent or they read the
SR novels for ideas, and get the wrong ideas.

I started playing SR because of the "realism" involved -- people you
could relate to, doing things that you could imagine. With this Epic
turn of events, I have a hard time realting, or even imagining anymore.

Jon Doud
germany@*****************.com
Message no. 89
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 10:27:34 -0500
----------
> From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.net>

> You admit to playing less SR thanothergames (what others?), and
more
> mages / magic campaigns when you do. Do you have something AGAINST more
> "mundane" campaigns / characters / games? I personally LIKE to see a
> non-mage character do something useful and important (besides protecting
> the mage).

Actually, I said that, not Panther (at least what you had quoted). I
don't play much Shadowrun because I can't find a group, so I mostly play
Palladium and work on tweaking the rules and settings of several games
(SR, AD&D [both editions], Palladium [most of their games], ED, Star Wars
and MERP once in a blue moon, Ars Magica, Storyteller even less frequently
than Star Wars and MERP, V&V... and that's off the top of my head).
As for having anything against mundane characters, no, not really. Its
just that for a very long period I wound up being the mage (or, in AD&D,
the priest), so I got my gaming reflexes tuned towards having magic at
hand. You read about the burned-out mage in Awakenings? That's me with a
fighter\street meat\etc..

Someone pointed out that, being based in a real tradition, Shadowrun
magic works better than most others, it just feels better. I whole
heartedly agree. While I sometimes have a bit of trouble remembering the
rules for Shadowrun, the magic system makes perfect sense (I just think I
could improve it a bit.... but I'll post that later).

> Another "Rifts"? As opposed to another "Mage: the
Assension"?
:) As
> for the "new gadget / book" factor- how many mages go WITHOUT intiating
> for more than a few runs? About 0%? I'd say thats a hefty "new gadget
> factor" that should be looked at. Just because 90% of the munchi mage
> stuff is all in one book doesn't mean its better for the game....

However, how much new stuff gets introduced for mages? Sure, initiating
is a great help, and gives the mage a huge boost... which then barely
moves at all. Whereas a sammy or a decker only needs money, a mage burns
more karma in a day than a sammy burns in a year (on average, of course).
And Karma requires doing shit, important shit, in order to get it. New
totems can't really be counted, simply because you have to start from
scratch if you want to use a new totem.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
"Death by a sword lasts but a moment, but a bard's scorn lasts
forever"
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
"Discretion is the better part of honor.... and innuendo the
better part of humor."
aka Ellegon, Working at making Cannon canon
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, mortal, for you are crunchy
and good with ketchup."
--------[Geek Code Block]-----------
GED/GSS d- s++:+ a-- C++ W w+ PS+.5 PE- Y+ t+
5+ X+ R*+.5 !tv+ b+.5 DI+ D- G e h !r-- !y+
-------[End Geek Code Block]-------
Message no. 90
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 11:41:47 EDT
In a message dated 5/7/98 4:29:45 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
mc23@**********.COM writes:

> >> Well, didn't the elves try to exterminate the dragons in Earthdawn?
> >>
> >Yes, and one could say that the Sphinx had a lot to do with the outcome of
> >that discussion....hmmm....could be...
>
> The Sphinx was created to look over Theran's rule. Nothing to do
> with dragon's there. Thera has had trouble with dragons before but Thera
> is also a mixed nation and not Elven. Sphinx has just sat there since its
> creation. The rulers of Thera do not know if the Spinx will ever move but
> they still watch what they do (getting a little braver with time).
>
Actually, there was a passage concerning "the people of Thera waking up one
morning and seeing a dragon sitting on it's head." What happened in Thera
after that was incredibly precise and nightmarish (the extra deaths...sounded
biblical to me for the "First Born of Egypt" theory...).

-K
Message no. 91
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 08:39:25 -0700
----------
> From: Robert Nesius <nesius@******.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
> Date: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 11:27 PM
>
> My 2 cents:
>
> Magic in SR: I liked the combination of magic and tech. But what really
> made the magic click was the very intuitive and slick mechanics for it.
No,
> they are not perfect, but they were darn good. I'm re-reading the Grim
II
> now, and I'm still impressed.
>

True... I really like the system too, now that I think about it.

<snip>
>
> I also think that the dragon assissination seemed "forced."
>
<snip>

This comment was the real reason I replied to this one. The thought
occured to me that while the assassination of Dunky was a bit out of the
blue, the thought occurs the assassination of Kennedy was just as
unexpected. In real life there's not a lot of foreshadowing.

But it was probably something they forced, I will admit.
Message no. 92
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:46:24 -0600
Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:
/
/ Katt Freyson wrote:
/ >|> Adam, I respect your work on this list greatly, but that
/ >|> has got to be
/ >|> the most moronic phrase in the entire English Language, and
/ >|> likely quite a
/ >|> few others. X would still be X if it didn't have Y, it would just be
/ >|> different.
/ >
/ > Phew, I was hesitant in answering Adam's post due to my recent history,
/ >but was hoping someone else had caught this. If someone had given this
/ >phrase to my teacher when I was taking Critical Thinking, they would have
/ >flunked. Basically he is saying P= !P which is not possible.
/
/ Err, maybe you should talk to your teacher again... That's not what
/ he's saying. X and Y are *different*. X != Y. Or do you deny that
/ Shadowrun would still be Shadowrun without, say, DocWagon? Sure,
/ DocWagon plays *a part* in the world, but it isn't really necessary.
/ The world would feel the same 99% of the time, because DocWagon isn't
/ a requirement for Shadowrun. Now, whether magic is a requirement
/ for Shadowrun is another question...

This is starting to remind of of the "is Shadowrun Cyberpunk debate".
Please, let's not go there.

/ > So I'd say that to state that Shadowrun would be basically the same
/ >without the magic is being incorrect. But that is my opinion.
/
/ Oh, I agree. I don't think that SR without magic would be the same.

But would it be Shadowrun?

The answer depends on how one defines Shadowrun. And being
individuals we each define it differently.

In my definition of Shadowrun, magic is an integral factor. In
someone else's definition that might not be the case. And neither
one of us would be right or wrong.

-David
--
"Truth, like a torch, the more it's shook it shines."
- Sir William Hamilton
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 93
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 12:20:22 EDT
In a message dated 5/7/98 9:58:15 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA writes:

> > It is my opinion that this is wrong, very wrong. While it may not be
> >apparent all the time, magic in Shadowrun has greatly influenced things.
> The
> >Tir Tan Gire(sp) for example would not exist, and that is a big
difference.
>
> Tir Tairngire. Why wouldn't it? You could still have IEs without
> magic - it'd just be due to high tech.
>
> >The NANs would not have been able to reclaim any territory. And, the day
to
> >day things that are not necessarily noticed would be very different.
>
> So the NAN uses nukes and assault rifles instead of volcanoes.
>
No offense folks, but the two examples that are given here have an entirely
different impact on how the world of SR would work, had they been taken.
Technology high enough to pursue out Real Immortality would be no different
IMO than some magically incurred genetic expression. And Nukes/Assault Rifles
vs. Volcanoes??? I don't know...the fallout question keeps coming to my
mind...

-K
Message no. 94
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 13:09:53 -0400
Ereskanti wrote:
>> > It is my opinion that this is wrong, very wrong. While it may not be
>> >apparent all the time, magic in Shadowrun has greatly influenced things.
>> The
>> >Tir Tan Gire(sp) for example would not exist, and that is a big
>difference.
>> Tir Tairngire. Why wouldn't it? You could still have IEs without
>> magic - it'd just be due to high tech.
>>
>> >The NANs would not have been able to reclaim any territory. And, the day
>to
>> >day things that are not necessarily noticed would be very different.
>> So the NAN uses nukes and assault rifles instead of volcanoes.
>>
>No offense folks, but the two examples that are given here have an entirely
>different impact on how the world of SR would work, had they been taken.
>Technology high enough to pursue out Real Immortality would be no different
>IMO than some magically incurred genetic expression. And Nukes/Assault
>Rifles
>vs. Volcanoes??? I don't know...the fallout question keeps coming to my
>mind...

My point was that the *elements* of the story, like "NAN secedes
from the US" or "a weird 'elven' nation secedes from the NAN"
could have been produced using other special effects. I don't
think that SR without magic would be SR - but much of the history
wouldn't necessarily change. The reason that I think that magic
is required in SR is the flavour of the universe - you never know
what to expect, weird stuff is going on all around, you have to
be quick on your feet to avoid stepping on your jaw.

In short, it makes the world more mysterious, leads to interesting
situations (Saeder-Krupp may have formed on its own, but to be
personally visited by Lofwyr is a different matter!), etc.

James Ojaste
Message no. 95
From: Panther <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 16:10:57 +0000
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>
> This was even true of magicians, though in a different way. They
> had their life pretty much taken up by being a magician. You either
> dedicated your life to it, were defined by being a magician, or you
> were not. If you were not, you might do some magic, but you'd never
> reach anything like your real potential. Obsession was not really
> optional.

That's just it. Physads, when played correctly, have the same (or at
least similar) obsession that mages have. Take a look at todays
martial artists and athletes for example. They are CONSTANTLY
training. At least the ones that are actually serious about it
(those also have a distinct tendency to be the best at what they do).
THAT is the price that physads pay, the time and effort spent in
training, to keep their bodies and minds honed to a razor sharp edge.
Take a break (or even quit) training, and they lose that edge.

And the concept of bioware actually seems kinda realistic to me. It
makes sense, IMO. :)

Pantherr

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Message no. 96
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 22:30:11 +0000
David wrote:
> / Oh, I agree. I don't think that SR without magic would be the same.
>
> But would it be Shadowrun?
>
> The answer depends on how one defines Shadowrun. And being
> individuals we each define it differently.
>
> In my definition of Shadowrun, magic is an integral factor. In
> someone else's definition that might not be the case. And neither
> one of us would be right or wrong.

Magic in shadowrun is there for the duration. I don't think *anyone*
is considering removing magic altogether. The question is wether
shadowrun would be shadowrun if it had *LESS* magic.
Wether you interpret that as reduced influence by the IE and Dragons,
or if it is reduced power of magic, or any other way, is up to you.

It appears SR3 will not emphasise IE's and Dragons as much as is done
currently, but not remove them altogether. Is that still shadowrun?

For my part, yes, most assuredly so.

(Do I get a 3rd edition BBB for free now, FASA please? ;)

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 97
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 12:52:58 EST
> I have a mixed vote, I guess. I like what FASA is doing, but I think
> they are doing it to quickly. They did the same thing to Battletech.
> I was perfectly happy before the Fourth Succession War, then they
> spring that on us, and then, God help us, the frigging Clans show up
> and screwed up everything. Same problems with power curve, too.

Yeah, but we've got to give them credit for keeping the BT universe
evolving...I mean, when I started to read the Twilight of the Clans
novels, and realized just WHAT was happening to the entire game
world...Whoa. [Then they screwed it up by delaying the rest of the
books, and now Field Manual: Crusader Clans gives away the ending :(]

Anyway, I had a similar experience while I was reading BitB. Wow.
THey did WHAT? My group is making a betting pool about what corps
survive. They are now about 1/2 way through, and they are much less
sure than before. EGMG. THey don't know who to side with.

The point is, the cool thing about all the FASA universes (ED, BT,
and SR) is that they aren't static...they continually change and
evolve, while keeping the basics of the game consistant. Far more
interesting that other games I could mention. Too many games just
keep releasing rules with little world changes. I mean, no one
expects Gehenna or the Apocolypse expansions for WoD to come out...

Note: FASA isn't the only one to do this, but is still one of the
best at it.

-=Swiftone=-
Message no. 98
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 20:18:35 -0500
>
> Re: FASA's On/Off Course? (Nexx , Thu 10:27)

> > You admit to playing less SR than other games (what others?), and
> more mages / magic campaigns when you do.

> Actually, I said that, not Panther (at least what you had quoted).

Hence the > >. Thanks for picking up the thread. :)

> As for having anything against mundane characters, no, not really. Its
> just that for a very long period I wound up being the mage (or, in AD&D,
> the priest), so I got my gaming reflexes tuned towards having magic at
> hand. You read about the burned-out mage in Awakenings? That's me with a
> fighter\street meat\etc..

I can understand that... I can die very well and quickly as a
"spellcaster" in multiple systems. :)

> Someone pointed out that, being based in a real tradition, Shadowrun
> magic works better than most others, it just feels better. I whole
> heartedly agree. While I sometimes have a bit of trouble remembering the
> rules for Shadowrun, the magic system makes perfect sense (I just think I
> could improve it a bit.... but I'll post that later).

I LIKE SR's magic, I just can see there are roles that mundanes SHOULD
be able to step into, but there is not gear, rules, or settings for.

> > As
> > for the "new gadget / book" factor- how many mages go WITHOUT
intiating
> > for more than a few runs? About 0%? I'd say thats a hefty "new gadget
> > factor" that should be looked at. Just because 90% of the munchi mage
> > stuff is all in one book doesn't mean its better for the game....
>
> However, how much new stuff gets introduced for mages?

A lot, IMO, if you consider that almost every adventure and sorcebook
has something in it ONLY a mage can do, where as almost nothing has come
out that ONLY a mundane can do. The SETTING has added a lot for mages
VS mundanes.

> Sure, initiating
> is a great help, and gives the mage a huge boost... which then barely
> moves at all.

Learn enchanting, make foci, you'll pick up speed pretty fast. Design
your own spells for those "special jobs". Hell, just picking a fetish
focus, and an elemntals service, recast a locked spell (maybe using
karma pool), and you've made a MAJOR improvemnt, often, for 1 karma
point, just by boding a lock to a spell you cast better as a more
experienced mage.

> Where as a sammy or a decker only needs money, a mage burns
> more karma in a day than a sammy burns in a year (on average, of course).

The amount of money a samuri needs to advance signifigantly can be
quite high, if your talking about upgrading cyber, and use all the
medical costs. Non-cyber gear is often just as useful (and affordable)
to mages. And mundanes need karma AT LEAST as much; try learning
"boitech/firstaid" at 5 or so. Now learn "heal" at force 6. Which
costs
less karma? Which is more effective? Spells tend to REPLACE skills,
saving karma.

> And Karma requires doing shit, important shit, in order to get it.

Shit that is HARDER to do if you are mundane, many times, becasue of
all the magical threats. Sometimes shit that is IMPOSSIBLE for
non-mages.

> New
> totems can't really be counted, simply because you have to start from
> scratch if you want to use a new totem.

No, I wasn't counting new totems, or even houdons. I was simply
counting the fact that mages have a very broad range of potential
developement. That makes them look expensive, but means they don't hit
a "Karma wall" and "cyberware ceiling" like mundanes do. There are
millions of possibilites open with SR's magic system (which is VERY
cool, and I would not want this removed), while Mundnaes are more....
mundane.

I'm not griping, I'm just pointing out that I think FASA is doing a
healthy thing by exploring mundanes as PC's and "world shaping" forces.
They are, after all, the 100 to 1 majority.

-Mongoose
Message no. 99
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 21:59:47 -0400
Once upon a time, Brett Borger wrote;

>Too many games just keep releasing rules with little world changes.
>I mean, no one expects Gehenna or the Apocolypse expansions for WoD
>to come out...

I've started hearing rumors about Gehenna. Don't forget how many of the
old guard at White Wolf have left.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"Boy, I'm in a bad mood today! Everyone had better steer clear of me! I
hate EVERYBODY! As far as I'm concerned, everyone on the planet can just
drop dead. People are scum.
.....
WELL-L-L? DOESN'T ANYONE WANT TO CHEER ME UP?!?"
-Calvin, Calvin and Hobbes
I am MC23
Message no. 100
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 19:11:36 -0700
----------
> From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
> Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 6:59 PM
>
> Once upon a time, Brett Borger wrote;
>
> >Too many games just keep releasing rules with little world changes.
> >I mean, no one expects Gehenna or the Apocolypse expansions for WoD
> >to come out...
>
> I've started hearing rumors about Gehenna. Don't forget how many of the
> old guard at White Wolf have left.
>

I didn't want to be the one to say it, but over on the various WoD lists
they've been talking about next year's "Year of..." books. 1999 will be
the Year of the Reckoning, and IIRC it represents some sort of prelude to
"the beginning of the end".

But they can't be ending it quite yet. They still have games with a
release date of 2000... granted, they're historical games, but... *shrug*
Message no. 101
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 04:10:57 -0400
At 12:52 PM 5/8/98 EST, you wrote:
Too many games just
>keep releasing rules with little world changes. I mean, no one
>expects Gehenna or the Apocolypse expansions for WoD to come out...
>
>Note: FASA isn't the only one to do this, but is still one of the
>best at it.

Well, I have to admit, one of the few ideas for a Storyteller campaign I'd
like to run someday is one in which the 'end of the world' (Gehenna, the
Apocalypse, etc.) is on its way. It's good old advice from the Amber DRPG:
Avoid the rush. Endanger the universe right away. I for one would like to
see some possible adventure material for drastic 'spin-off' campaigns, it'd
be interesting to see what FASA came up with. Bug City is held in pretty
high esteem, after all.

I have also thought about running adventures in SR wherein the PCs have to
defuse a nuke, or other serious disaster situation, and if they don't,
BOOM. They get to deal with the consequences afterward, try to live in a
post-war world... Think if you were involved in Chicago for instance, when
the Bugs first made their way into town, and saw the whole thing building
up, gradually, until one day all the electrics in your area shorted, shock
wave, blast... And you realize how bad things have become. :)


losthalo@********.comwhileyouarelisteningyourwillingattentionismakingyoumore
andmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome.

"Some things are true whether you believe in them or not."
Message no. 102
From: Lander Williams <lander@****.WAVE.CA>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 11:01:33 -0600
>>Too many games just keep releasing rules with little world changes.
>>I mean, no one expects Gehenna or the Apocolypse expansions for WoD
>>to come out...
>
>I've started hearing rumors about Gehenna. Don't forget how many of the
>old guard at White Wolf have left.


being an avid player of WW games (sorry guys) i gotta ask
"Rumours? What rumours?"

(Lander, he who never figured out the .sig concept)
Message no. 103
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 15:11:29 -0400
At 04:10 AM 5/9/98 -0400, losthalo wrote these timeless words:
>Think if you were involved in Chicago for instance, when
>the Bugs first made their way into town, and saw the whole thing building
>up, gradually, until one day all the electrics in your area shorted, shock
>wave, blast... And you realize how bad things have become. :)
>
We did :]

We started playing in Chicagoi before Bug City came out. It was a LOT of
fun :]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka Chaos, aka a lot of others! :]

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