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Message no. 1
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Fat-bac
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:50:11 -0500 (EST)
OK question time again.
How are you all handling Fat Bacteria?
Our teams are using the rules in Corp. Sec. Sourcebook as is, no problems.
However, they have also come up with some interesting ideas.
We have a physad with astral perception that wants to carry a rod full of
fat-bac.
Once an astral victim is subdued, say in a fat-bac containment net - he uses
it to beat the wizard senseless - kind of like a no karma astral weapon/mage
blade.
I have been allowing this to do damage as a club.
As far as I can tell, the two astral forms cannot avoid each other, and so
are forced to collide, I reason that this would at least do some stun damage.
Now here's the next one - how about an fat-bac whip? No, not a monowhip,
that I won't allow, but a tapered plastic tube flooded with fat-bac?
I'm not sure about this one, again, since it can't really "cut" an astral
body, I guess it would just be a slightly less effective astral club, that
could also double as a material world whip.
Before anyone asks, yes, I have thought about letting this fat-bac moron get
a good dose of Strain III!! :-) <evil grin>
Comments?
Message no. 2
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: Fat-bac
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 21:33:00 -0700
Steven A. Tinner wrote:
> How are you all handling Fat Bacteria?

Personally..I handle it as though the company spent a whole lot of nuyen
for nothing..I never liked the whole idea..When Mike and Rich [that is
Mike Colton and Rich Osterhout the guys that are responsible for the
abomination that is Fat-Bac] asked my what I thought of the idea I went
through the roof..I ranted and raved and in the end pretty much got
ignored...

> Our teams are using the rules in Corp. Sec. Sourcebook as is, no problems.
> However, they have also come up with some interesting ideas.

Well one of the ways I treat the Fat-Bac problem is as though it were
simply difficult to pass through..since an astral form can pass through
water and water is a bacterial soup I figure this Fat-Bac is like
condensed bacterial soup..simple slowing down the Astral form..Not
stopping it..If it were a giant amoeba a single cell..It would be what it
is touted as..Or if it is astrally active this also makes it a barrier..a
Barrier that can be grounded through..but a barrier none the less..I
could go on and on but I will try and hold myself in check..

> We have a physad with astral perception that wants to carry a rod full of
> fat-bac.
> Once an astral victim is subdued, say in a fat-bac containment net -

I won't..I will resist..Oh I can't do it..If I were creating a magically
active PC he would have an astral persona that would normally be too
large to be caught in this silly idea..

> he uses
> it to beat the wizard senseless - kind of like a no karma astral weapon/mage
> blade.

I would never allow anything like this..Unless you make the Fat-Bac
astrally active..This at least gives the mage a chance to fight back by
gounding spells though the rod..And thus IMHO preserving some balance..

> I have been allowing this to do damage as a club.
> As far as I can tell, the two astral forms cannot avoid each other, and so
> are forced to collide, I reason that this would at least do some stun damage.

If you are going to allow this I suppose this seems reasonable..

> Now here's the next one - how about an fat-bac whip? No, not a monowhip,
> that I won't allow, but a tapered plastic tube flooded with fat-bac?
> I'm not sure about this one, again, since it can't really "cut" an astral
> body, I guess it would just be a slightly less effective astral club, that
> could also double as a material world whip.

No way..I am sorry I really cannot agree with the idea of starting a line
of Fat-Bac weapons..Next it will be Fat-Bac bullets..The only weapon that
IMHO would truely have a chance of suceeding in actually hitting the
Mage..That silly net idea..There is no way a..Never mind..I am trying to
keep this post a reasonable length..
Well those are my comments..
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 3
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Fat-bac
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 01:14:36 -0500 (EST)
>Personally..I handle it as though the company spent a whole lot of nuyen
>for nothing..I never liked the whole idea..When Mike and Rich [that is
>Mike Colton and Rich Osterhout the guys that are responsible for the
>abomination that is Fat-Bac] asked my what I thought of the idea I went
>through the roof..I ranted and raved and in the end pretty much got
>ignored...

It is a rather odd departure from "normal SR"

>Well one of the ways I treat the Fat-Bac problem is as though it were
>simply difficult to pass through..since an astral form can pass through
>water and water is a bacterial soup I figure this Fat-Bac is like
>condensed bacterial soup..simple slowing down the Astral form..Not
>stopping it..If it were a giant amoeba a single cell..It would be what it
>is touted as..Or if it is astrally active this also makes it a barrier..a
>Barrier that can be grounded through..but a barrier none the less..I
>could go on and on but I will try and hold myself in check..

I agree with you on this one. It never made a whole lot of sense that
bacterium could deter a human size astral presence. Close examination of the
posts in CS lead me to believe that the corps are pulling a big fast one
with fat-bac. While some GM's might just ignore the problem and say it
doesn't work, I'm toying with the idea of fb being something much more than
the corps think.
Maybe this fat-bac stuff is alive in more than a microscopic manner. I'm
thinking a possible horror, or horror byproduct. The Strain III stuff from
threats, along with the description of the "Blod from Astral Space" in
awakenings just seemed to click for me.
I'm slowly building up to the PC's learning that fat-bac is sentient and
malevolent

>I won't..I will resist..Oh I can't do it..If I were creating a magically
>active PC he would have an astral persona that would normally be too
>large to be caught in this silly idea..

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. The rule that lets wizards
appear as idealized versions of themselves in astral space? We junked that
rule, and the GM decides an ideal by working with the player. It avoids all
wizards being massive nude muscular brutes with powerful depictions of their
astral manhood. Add that to the fact that my players have yet to realize
that their size could be malleable if they wanted, and it allows them to be
netted, or contained by FB flooded walls.

>I would never allow anything like this..Unless you make the Fat-Bac
>astrally active..This at least gives the mage a chance to fight back by
>gounding spells though the rod..And thus IMHO preserving some balance..

Oh, I do. I do . . . :-)<evil grin>

>> I have been allowing this to do damage as a club.
>> As far as I can tell, the two astral forms cannot avoid each other, and so
>> are forced to collide, I reason that this would at least do some stun damage.
>
>If you are going to allow this I suppose this seems reasonable..
>
>> Now here's the next one - how about an fat-bac whip? No, not a monowhip,
>> that I won't allow, but a tapered plastic tube flooded with fat-bac?
>> I'm not sure about this one, again, since it can't really "cut" an
astral
>> body, I guess it would just be a slightly less effective astral club, that
>> could also double as a material world whip.
>
>No way..I am sorry I really cannot agree with the idea of starting a line
>of Fat-Bac weapons..Next it will be Fat-Bac bullets..The only weapon that
>IMHO would truely have a chance of suceeding in actually hitting the
>Mage..That silly net idea..There is no way a..Never mind..I am trying to
>keep this post a reasonable length..
>Well those are my comments..

Yes, they have wondered about FB bullets. I plan on allowing them to make
them, but bullets will simply push the astral form, without harming it,
again, unless it is subdued.
You're right, the nets should be less effective, I had forgotten that astral
forms can move at the speed of thought essentially. (How do you net that?)
Most of their limited experience with "trapped" astral bodies has been
accomplished by first sealing the mage into a FB trap room, (walls flooded
with FB) then the physad goes in with the wiz to net the astral form. They
then work the victim over with the clubs if he's uncooperative.
The FB clubs do not do full club damage. They get no STR bonuses. Willpower
helps here, just like fighting against a manifest spirit, etc.
After your explanation of the bacteria/ameboa thing, I guess I should start
"thickening" my FB descriptions! :-)
Thanks for the input!
Message no. 4
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Fat-bac
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:57:24 +0100
Steven A. Tinner said on 21:50/ 2 Sep 96...

> How are you all handling Fat Bacteria?
> Our teams are using the rules in Corp. Sec. Sourcebook as is, no problems.
> However, they have also come up with some interesting ideas.
> We have a physad with astral perception that wants to carry a rod full of
> fat-bac.
> Once an astral victim is subdued, say in a fat-bac containment net - he uses
> it to beat the wizard senseless - kind of like a no karma astral weapon/mage
> blade.

Sounds okay to me, but see below for thoughts.

> I have been allowing this to do damage as a club.
> As far as I can tell, the two astral forms cannot avoid each other, and so
> are forced to collide, I reason that this would at least do some stun damage.
> Now here's the next one - how about an fat-bac whip? No, not a monowhip,
> that I won't allow, but a tapered plastic tube flooded with fat-bac?
> I'm not sure about this one, again, since it can't really "cut" an astral
> body, I guess it would just be a slightly less effective astral club, that
> could also double as a material world whip.

This gets in the same fuzzy areas as the FAB-netgun does. If an
astral-only and physical body (whether from a person or from FAB) were to
occupy the same space, the physical one "wins" and pushes the astral one
away, right? The FAB whip would therefore push the magician out of the
way whether he wants it or not. The same would go for the club, IMHO: hit
the astral mage with the FAB-filled club, and all you do is push his
astral body a bit to the side. Although you could rule it does damage
because the magician isn't prepared for this onslaught. Still, that it'd
mean an astrally-projecting magician would also take damage if he gets
into the path of someone walking the other way in a street.

But so far so good. The real trouble starts if the body can't get out of
the way, like if the astral form of the magician is with his back against
a tree when the physad with the FAB club comes along. I think I'd rule the
club/whip will just do damage in such a case, without special effects like
cutting the magician in half, to avoid any unnecessary problems and
lengthy discussions with the players to why it will or will not do certain
things...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Illusion of the equal rights.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 5
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Fat-bac
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 07:28:06 -0600 (MDT)
Steven A. Tinner wrote:
|
|OK question time again.
|How are you all handling Fat Bacteria?
|Our teams are using the rules in Corp. Sec. Sourcebook as is, no problems.
|However, they have also come up with some interesting ideas.
|We have a physad with astral perception that wants to carry a rod full of
|fat-bac.
|Once an astral victim is subdued, say in a fat-bac containment net - he uses
|it to beat the wizard senseless - kind of like a no karma astral weapon/mage
|blade.
|I have been allowing this to do damage as a club.
|As far as I can tell, the two astral forms cannot avoid each other, and so
|are forced to collide, I reason that this would at least do some stun damage.

The following arguement may be based on a *house rule* that
an astral being cannot pass through a living (on the
physical) entity. (I've been playing SR for so long that I
loose track. I have Got to sit down and re-read the rules
again <sigh>.)

Then by this arguement any person with astral perception
(PhysAd, Mage, Shaman) and skill with unarmed combat would
be able to hurt an astral victim. Because they are alive
they have an astral presence that keeps an astrally
projecting mage from passing through them (or any other
living creature). Their hands and feet could collide with
said mage. This would also allow any critter with astral
perception to attack said mage. This just starts to open
up a huge can of worms.

My take on it would be that the fat-bac just pushes the
astral mage out of the way, or maybe bounces him, but
doesn't cause any damage. Because, the fat-bac isn't
magicaly active in the same way as a weapon focus, doesn't
carry the energy of a spell, and doesn't have any Willpower
to direct against the mage.

However, if you want to say that it can cause damage,
because knownst only to you is that it is in fact sentient
and linked to horrors, then I say bravo and congradulations
for being a truely inspired GM.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 6
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 09:48:02 -0500
The thing to remember about the FAB club is that impacts don't do any damage in
astral. Simply being hit by a club doesn't hurt at all, even one that has a living
aura. However--having two living auras superimposed (like sticking the club
through mesh trapping an astral wizard) causes great pain. However, no need to
make a FAB club, just stick your mundane little hand through the mesh, that will do
just as well.

This is assuming you use FAB at all, after reading some of the other posts, I'm
begining to think about dropping it too.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 7
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:07:17 -0600 (MDT)
Mike Elkins wrote:
|
| This is assuming you use FAB at all, after reading some
| of the other posts, I'm begining to think about dropping it
| too.

I consider it to be pretty useless stuff. The same effect
can be accomplished by tossing the mage in a shrubery :)

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 8
From: William Monroe Ashe <wma6617@*******.tamu.edu>
Subject: Re: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:37:47 -0500 (CDT)
> I consider it to be pretty useless stuff. The same effect
> can be accomplished by tossing the mage in a shrubery :)


A shrubery??? I thought it was a herring? ... No wait! I gotta cut down
the forest with the shrubery yeah yeah that's it!!!

O.k. back to reality(heh now there's a relative thing to say)
Fat-Bac seems to me to be pretty darn stupid. If you have a wall full of
the stuff all you need to do is drill a small hole in the wall with an
acid stream spell (for example) then use detox (or was it disinfect) poof
no FB. Or if you want to blow a few karma design a slay FB spell.

regards

Bill
Message no. 9
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Fat-bac
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 11:35:32 -0500 (EST)
>This gets in the same fuzzy areas as the FAB-netgun does. If an
>astral-only and physical body (whether from a person or from FAB) were to
>occupy the same space, the physical one "wins" and pushes the astral one
>away, right? The FAB whip would therefore push the magician out of the
>way whether he wants it or not. The same would go for the club, IMHO: hit
>the astral mage with the FAB-filled club, and all you do is push his
>astral body a bit to the side. Although you could rule it does damage
>because the magician isn't prepared for this onslaught. Still, that it'd
>mean an astrally-projecting magician would also take damage if he gets
>into the path of someone walking the other way in a street.

I don't allow any damage, if the astral form can move.

>But so far so good. The real trouble starts if the body can't get out of
>the way, like if the astral form of the magician is with his back against
>a tree when the physad with the FAB club comes along. I think I'd rule the
>club/whip will just do damage in such a case, without special effects like
>cutting the magician in half, to avoid any unnecessary problems and
>lengthy discussions with the players to why it will or will not do certain
>things...

There's no way I'm allowing them to actually alter the astral form. No cuts,
so severing of limbs. And definately no bullet holes. Just a little stun damage.
Message no. 10
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Fat-bac
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 11:42:32 -0500 (EST)
>Then by this arguement any person with astral perception
>(PhysAd, Mage, Shaman) and skill with unarmed combat would
>be able to hurt an astral victim. Because they are alive
>they have an astral presence that keeps an astrally
>projecting mage from passing through them (or any other
>living creature). Their hands and feet could collide with
>said mage. This would also allow any critter with astral
>perception to attack said mage. This just starts to open
>up a huge can of worms.

That is something we allow. If you can astrally see it - you can fight it.

>My take on it would be that the fat-bac just pushes the
>astral mage out of the way, or maybe bounces him, but
>doesn't cause any damage. Because, the fat-bac isn't
>magicaly active in the same way as a weapon focus, doesn't
>carry the energy of a spell, and doesn't have any Willpower
>to direct against the mage.

The physad could simply strike the mage with his hands, and achieve the same
effect.
However, he came up with this FB idea, and I allowed it, since essentially
he's using his willpoer against the astral body, just like attacking a
manifest spirit.

>However, if you want to say that it can cause damage,
>because knownst only to you is that it is in fact sentient
>and linked to horrors, then I say bravo and congradulations
>for being a truely inspired GM.

Well thank you. I appreciate that. :-)
Message no. 11
From: readle.cr@**.com
Subject: Re[2]: Fat-bac
Date: 3 Sep 96 10:58:00 -0400
Then by this arguement any person with astral perception
(PhysAd, Mage, Shaman) and skill with unarmed combat would
be able to hurt an astral victim. Because they are alive
they have an astral presence that keeps an astrally
projecting mage from passing through them (or any other
living creature). Their hands and feet could collide with
said mage. This would also allow any critter with astral
perception to attack said mage. This just starts to open
up a huge can of worms.

What you seem to be forgetting here is that if you are astrally
perceiving you ARE astrally active, iff still bound to your bod...all
that really means is that the projecting slot can rocket off straight
up and you cannot follow, as well as walk through walls, etc. If you
are astrally active you CAN hurt someone that is also active.

chris
<Zero length text item>
Message no. 12
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Fat-bac
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 10:34:44 -0600 (MDT)
Steven A. Tinner wrote:
|
|That is something we allow. If you can astrally see it - you can fight it.

Must make your mages a lot more cautious. Hmmm...

|The physad could simply strike the mage with his hands, and achieve the same
|effect.
|However, he came up with this FB idea, and I allowed it, since essentially
|he's using his willpoer against the astral body, just like attacking a
|manifest spirit.

Erk.. I forgot about that aspect of melee. Okay, sounds
good based on your interpretation of the physical
interacting with the astral.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 13
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Fat-bac
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 10:58:27 -0600 (MDT)
readle.cr@**.com wrote:
|
|Then by this arguement any person with astral perception
|(PhysAd, Mage, Shaman) and skill with unarmed combat would
|be able to hurt an astral victim. Because they are alive
|they have an astral presence that keeps an astrally
|projecting mage from passing through them (or any other
|living creature). Their hands and feet could collide with
|said mage. This would also allow any critter with astral
|perception to attack said mage. This just starts to open
|up a huge can of worms.
|
| What you seem to be forgetting here is that if you are astrally
| perceiving you ARE astrally active, iff still bound to your bod...all
| that really means is that the projecting slot can rocket off straight
| up and you cannot follow, as well as walk through walls, etc. If you
| are astrally active you CAN hurt someone that is also active.

You're right. I blame it on all those "Quickening"
debates. I've lost track of what the rules really say
regarding the astral. I'm going to start re-reading the
rules and taking notes *tonight*.

David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 14
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 96 17:32:43 EST
------------------------------------------------------------

%> I consider it to be pretty useless stuff. The same
%effect > can be accomplished by tossing the mage in a
%shrubery :)


%A shrubery??? I thought it was a herring? ... No wait! I gotta cut down
%the forest with the shrubery yeah yeah that's it!!!

%O.k. back to reality(heh now there's a relative thing to say)
%Fat-Bac seems to me to be pretty darn stupid. If you have a wall full
%of the stuff all you need to do is drill a small hole in the wall with
%an acid stream spell (for example) then use detox (or was it disinfect)
%poof no FB. Or if you want to blow a few karma design a slay FB spell.

%regards

%Bill
---------------------------------------------------------------------

My dear Chap, you've found the true essence of the fat-bacteria. of course you
can blow a hole in the wall, of course you can kill the bacteria, but you have
to be PHYSICALLY PRESENT to do that. the idea is NOT to protect the outer walls
of corp city, but the doors leading to the secret underground area, the mage
sees it, it is obvious, but he can't go nosing around in there, for that he and
his sammie chums have to get their butts over there and risk the hail of lead
from assorted sentry guns... in short, they have to make a run [or is it do a
run?]
Ferri
Message no. 15
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 96 16:41:28 EST
%Mike Elkins wrote:
%|
%| This is assuming you use FAB at all, after reading some
%| of the other posts, I'm begining to think about dropping
%it | too.

%I consider it to be pretty useless stuff. The same effect
%can be accomplished by tossing the mage in a shrubery :)

%-David
--------------------------------------------------------------
The thing has but one good use: fill walls with it in areas where you don't want
mages around. I consider them a cheap alternative [in maintenance] to high
powered astral barriers.
Ferri
Message no. 16
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Fat-bac -Reply -Reply
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 14:35:23 -0500
>O.k. back to reality(heh now there's a relative thing to say)
>Fat-Bac seems to me to be pretty darn stupid. If you have a wall full of the stuff
>all you need to do is drill a small hole in the wall with an acid stream spell (for
>example) then use detox (or was it disinfect) poof no FB. Or if you want to
>blow a few karma design a slay FB spell.

Neither technique will work for an astrally projecting mage, of course. Which is
the whole reason for FAB.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 17
From: readle.cr@**.com
Subject: Re[3]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: 3 Sep 96 15:32:00 -0400
%> I consider it to be pretty useless stuff. The same
%effect > can be accomplished by tossing the mage in a
%shrubery :)


%A shrubery??? I thought it was a herring? ... No wait! I gotta cut down
%the forest with the shrubery yeah yeah that's it!!!

%O.k. back to reality(heh now there's a relative thing to say)
%Fat-Bac seems to me to be pretty darn stupid. If you have a wall full
%of the stuff all you need to do is drill a small hole in the wall with
%an acid stream spell (for example) then use detox (or was it disinfect)
%poof no FB. Or if you want to blow a few karma design a slay FB spell.

%regards

%Bill
---------------------------------------------------------------------

My dear Chap, you've found the true essence of the fat-bacteria. of course you
can blow a hole in the wall, of course you can kill the bacteria, but you have
to be PHYSICALLY PRESENT to do that. the idea is NOT to protect the outer walls
of corp city, but the doors leading to the secret underground area, the mage
sees it, it is obvious, but he can't go nosing around in there, for that he and
his sammie chums have to get their butts over there and risk the hail of lead
from assorted sentry guns... in short, they have to make a run [or is it do a
run?]
Ferri


Well, if you subscribe to the notion that FAB is active(that is, astrally)
then a Slay FAB spell would do the trick. Otherwise, you've hit the
proverbial nail right where it smarts the most.

chris
<Zero length text item>
Message no. 18
From: readle.cr@**.com
Subject: Re[2]: Fat-bac
Date: 3 Sep 96 15:54:00 -0400
Steven A. Tinner wrote:
|
|That is something we allow. If you can astrally see it - you can fight it.

Must make your mages a lot more cautious. Hmmm...

|The physad could simply strike the mage with his hands, and achieve the same
|effect.
|However, he came up with this FB idea, and I allowed it, since essentially
|he's using his willpoer against the astral body, just like attacking a
|manifest spirit.

Erk.. I forgot about that aspect of melee. Okay, sounds
good based on your interpretation of the physical
interacting with the astral.

-David


That does make pretty much sense I guess. However, I probably wouldn't
allow just any kind of random, unintentional contact to do damage. If the
physad can(somehow) sense the astral bugger and is making a directed attack
against that target then that would properly focus his will. OTOH, a mage
running into a FAB wall, or a physad wildly swinging a FAB-club around in
the hopes of hitting an astral that he THINKS is there would be an entirely
different matter, IMHO.

chris
<Zero length text item>
Message no. 19
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Fat-bac
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:59:19 +1000 (EST)
> However, if you want to say that it can cause damage,
> because knownst only to you is that it is in fact sentient
> and linked to horrors, then I say bravo and congradulations
> for being a truely inspired GM.

Aaaagh! Hush! Hush! My GM reads this list! :(


Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 20
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject: Re: Fat-bac
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 17:21:03 -0500
At 09:50 PM 9/2/96 -0500, you wrote:
>OK question time again.
>How are you all handling Fat Bacteria?

FAB is very rare in my campaign so I don't have the problems you're having.
Actually, the runners haven't encountered FAB ... yet. To get a FAB club,
they'd have to make a run on a facility that has it, steal some, then take
enough and a storage container so the bacteria will live long enough to be
useful. And buy some PVC pipe. If I recall correctly, FAB has a short (a
few hours or days) life-span without the preservation unit.



-Thomas Deeny
the Cartoonist at large is on the web at www2.cy-net.net/~fauxpas

"We were told to turn it down, stuff got broken, and everyone got naked. It
was a successful party."
-Marcus "DoubleDaves will have to name one of their stores after me" Drew.
Message no. 21
From: "Galen \"Marphod\" Silversmith" <argentum@****.isca.uiowa.edu>
Subject: Re: Re[3]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 17:42:46 -0500
On 3 Sep 1996 readle.cr@**.com wrote:
> My dear Chap, you've found the true essence of the fat-bacteria. of course
> you can blow a hole in the wall, of course you can kill the bacteria, but
> you have to be PHYSICALLY PRESENT to do that.
<snipped: part about wherte Fat bac would be... >
>
> Well, if you subscribe to the notion that FAB is active(that is, astrally)
> then a Slay FAB spell would do the trick. Otherwise, you've hit the
> proverbial nail right where it smarts the most.
>
Summon up a watcher, order the poor little guy to manifest and ground
something through the unfortunate little guy. Admittedly, its not going
to work as well as an acid spell, or be as quiet, as it needs to be an
area affect spell. But it should work,if yopu don;t mind burnt watcher...


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Galen Silversmith "Please relax and enjoy your shoes"--DNA
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"May the ducks of your life quack ever harmoniously"--Andromeda Yelton
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Message no. 22
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 23:32:11 -0700
Mike Elkins wrote:
> However--having two living auras superimposed

Not possible unless you are using a house rule..And I won't even go there in
that case..

> This is assuming you use FAB at all, after reading some of the other posts, I'm
> begining to think about dropping it too.
>

Of course FB could make a pretty good deterent..We have this beacon/barrier
here because we are aware that there is a magically active threat out there
and we are prepared..Some mages don't want to tangle with other mages on the
astral plane..a FB barrier could work in this way to help deter at least the
casual or wary interloper ...
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 23
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: Fat-bac
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 23:32:52 -0700
Steven A. Tinner wrote:
> ......It never made a whole lot of sense that
> bacterium could deter a human size astral presence. Close examination of the
> posts in CS lead me to believe that the corps are pulling a big fast one
> with fat-bac.

It..IMHO..is kinda like shooting down a crummy Skud missle with 5 high tech
expenside patriot missles..Sure the Skud gets destroyed..But..I wouldn't want
to be standing around when the debris from 6 missles start raining down..Did
that make sense..It did when I first thought of it..Hmmmm...


> .....I'm toying with the idea of fb being something much more than
> the corps think.
> Maybe this fat-bac stuff is alive in more than a microscopic manner. I'm
> thinking a possible horror, or horror byproduct. The Strain III stuff from
> threats, along with the description of the "Blod from Astral Space" in
> awakenings just seemed to click for me.
> I'm slowly building up to the PC's learning that fat-bac is sentient and
> malevolent
>

Well, if you must use the horible stuff..I like that premises you are
using..At least it makes more sense...Than "It works because the bacteria are
fat.."

>
> ......The rule that lets wizards
> appear as idealized versions of themselves in astral space? We junked that
> rule, and the GM decides an ideal by working with the player. It avoids all
> wizards being massive nude muscular brutes with powerful depictions of their
> astral manhood.

Yup..you got the idea..I kinda like the whole idealized setup..I had a Shark
shaman that looked kinda like one of those Street Shark characters....It
worked fairly well...

> ......it allows them to be
> netted, or contained by FB flooded walls.
>

I would never allow a mage to actually be netted..Reason being..If a net is
placed over an astral mage does the net look as though it is hanging in mid
air?? If we are to accept FB and FB nets it will..Ok now let's just say for
the sake of argument that I accept this [I don't but we all know that by now]
all of the sudden an astral figure can directly affect the physical plane
without magic..Cool so that means I can go astral..Pick up a plant [potted of
course] and fling it at a physical target..or better yet..I can pick up some
sort of living dagger while in astral form and cut the throats of the guards
in the guardhouse that didn't see the dagger float into the
room....Hmmmm...now this sounds fun..I can go on a run preform astral cover
duties and get in on the fight.. :)

That is just one of the reasons I don't like FB..reverse logic..It sucks
doesn't it...

> Thanks for the input!

No problem..Ask anyone..I'm full of it..input that is.. :)
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 24
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Fat-bac
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:55:03 +0100
David Buehrer said on 10:58/ 3 Sep 96...

> You're right. I blame it on all those "Quickening" debates. I've lost
> track of what the rules really say regarding the astral. I'm going to
> start re-reading the rules and taking notes *tonight*.

That's what they all say :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Illusion of the equal rights.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 25
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:55:03 +0100
William Monroe Ashe said on 9:37/ 3 Sep 96...

> O.k. back to reality(heh now there's a relative thing to say)
> Fat-Bac seems to me to be pretty darn stupid. If you have a wall full of
> the stuff all you need to do is drill a small hole in the wall with an
> acid stream spell (for example) then use detox (or was it disinfect) poof
> no FB. Or if you want to blow a few karma design a slay FB spell.

The only real trouble with these solutions is that you can't use any of
them from astral space. Not unless the FAB is dual-natured, which it is
not -- if it were, it'd pose a really big health hazard to anyone on the
physical plane if there are any roaming, astral magicians about.

Now if you can go in through the physical plane, your solution works. But
unless the bacteria are under pressure, they wouldn't come streaming out
of a hole you drill in a wall...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Illusion of the equal rights.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 26
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Re[3]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:55:03 +0100
Galen \ said on 17:42/ 3 Sep 96...

> Summon up a watcher, order the poor little guy to manifest and ground
> something through the unfortunate little guy. Admittedly, its not going
> to work as well as an acid spell, or be as quiet, as it needs to be an
> area affect spell. But it should work,if yopu don;t mind burnt watcher...

Nope. Won't work. Nice try, though.

To be precise, there are two reasons:

1) Watchers don't manifest. They just show themselves on the physical
plane, but cannot touch anything there. Nature spirits and elementals can
manifest, and physically interact with things on the physical plane.

2) You cannot summon a spirit unless you are on the physical plane
yourself. It has something to do with bridging the two planes to allow the
spirit to do so as well.

Now if you're thinking about doing this with normal spirits you have
summon before, that would work, but has some drawbacks as well:

1) Shamans trying this should get in trouble with their totem. Mages have
no such worries, since elementals are expendable.

2) If you do have a spirit or elemental with you, why not order it to
manifest and open the door? Or break through the wall, so the FAB is
released?

3) Tutor.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Illusion of the equal rights.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 27
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Fat-bac
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:12:50 -0600 (MDT)
Lady Jestyr wrote:
|
|> However, if you want to say that it can cause damage,
|> because knownst only to you is that it is in fact sentient
|> and linked to horrors, then I say bravo and congradulations
|> for being a truely inspired GM.
|
|Aaaagh! Hush! Hush! My GM reads this list! :(

Sorry ;) It could be worse. You could be playing in my
game (dragons, vampires, corporations, insects, horror,
gods, assasins, governments, illuminati, yakuza, etc. Not
necesarily(sp?) in that order. But, no immortal elves :)

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 28
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Fat-bac
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:14:16 -0600 (MDT)
Gurth wrote:
|
|David Buehrer said on 10:58/ 3 Sep 96...
|
|> You're right. I blame it on all those "Quickening" debates. I've lost
|> track of what the rules really say regarding the astral. I'm going to
|> start re-reading the rules and taking notes *tonight*.
|
|That's what they all say :)

No, really, I mean it this time :)

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 29
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Re[3]: Fat-bac -Reply -Reply
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 10:03:10 -0500
> Summon up a watcher, order the poor little guy to manifest and ground
>something through the unfortunate little guy. Admittedly, its not going to work as
>well as an acid spell, or be as quiet, as it needs to be an area affect spell. But
it
>should work,if yopu don;t mind burnt watcher...

You can't summon while astrally projecting, but if you always summon a watcher
or two beforehand to keep you company (not a bad idea anyway), this does work
fine. In fact, if you developed an area effect anti-bacteria spell it probably
wouldn't even hurt the watcher.

IMHO there needs to be some cost to toasting a spirit you summoned. Otherwise
magicians become the equivalent of supersonic nuclear attack subs. One
magician terrorist could kill hundreds per day of random people off the street, and
zip off to other parts of town before he could be caught.

Off the top of my head, how about loosing a point of your "summoning" charisma
every time you do this without the consent of the spirit. That way, it gets harder
and harder to summon the more you do it.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 30
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: Re[3]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 10:51:10 -0700
Gurth wrote:
> 1) Shamans trying this should get in trouble with their totem. Mages have
> no such worries, since elementals are expendable.
>

I agree..Waste is a bad thing no matter what form it takes..

> 2) If you do have a spirit or elemental with you, why not order it to
> manifest and open the door? Or break through the wall, so the FAB is
> released?
>

But that would be too easy.. :)Of course I like the idea of contaminating the
corp by releasing the FAB into the surrounding area..

> No, but not for any "access to those planes of existance" reasons. You
> just can't summon spirits of any kind unless you are inside your own body.
> Period. (This, BTW, is from Awakenings.)
>

Hmmmm...I was wondering where this argument was coming from..I haven't picked
this one up yet...I guess I am overdue...

> The only real trouble with these solutions is that you can't use any of
> them from astral space. Not unless the FAB is dual-natured, which it is
> not --

Well..Now that all depends now doesn't it...As this point is purposly not
adressed in the CS book...

> if it were, it'd pose a really big health hazard to anyone on the
> physical plane if there are any roaming, astral magicians about.
>

especially if I was running the mage...I would ground spell after spell
through the stuff..until it was all completely destroyed..out of principle if
for no other reason...Hmmmm, could an astral form become ill from a dual
natured bacteria???

> Now if you can go in through the physical plane, your solution works. But
> unless the bacteria are under pressure, they wouldn't come streaming out
> of a hole you drill in a wall...
>

Actually, the bacteria would come streaming out due to the pressure of
gravity..kinda like putting a hole in a full coffee cup..all the coffee come
streaming out down to the level of the hole...besides doesn't the CS book say
the system is pressurised??? so the FB can be placed put in the walls at a
moments notice...I would assume the inverse would also be true..so the walls
could be evacuated of the FB whenever needed...
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 31
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Fat-bac
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:01:15 -0500 (EST)
>I would never allow a mage to actually be netted..Reason being..If a net is
>placed over an astral mage does the net look as though it is hanging in mid
>air?? If we are to accept FB and FB nets it will..Ok now let's just say for
>the sake of argument that I accept this [I don't but we all know that by now]
>all of the sudden an astral figure can directly affect the physical plane
>without magic..Cool so that means I can go astral..Pick up a plant [potted of
>course] and fling it at a physical target..or better yet..I can pick up some
>sort of living dagger while in astral form and cut the throats of the guards
>in the guardhouse that didn't see the dagger float into the
>room....Hmmmm...now this sounds fun..I can go on a run preform astral cover
>duties and get in on the fight.. :)

ICK!
Didn't think that one through all the way!
That could sure mess things up allright.
I'll have to rethink my stance on this stuff and be prepared for my wizards
trying that crap.
Message no. 32
From: readle.cr@**.com
Subject: Re[2]: Fat-bac
Date: 4 Sep 96 14:41:00 -0400
>I would never allow a mage to actually be netted..Reason being..If a net is
>placed over an astral mage does the net look as though it is hanging in mid
>air?? If we are to accept FB and FB nets it will..Ok now let's just say for
>the sake of argument that I accept this [I don't but we all know that by now]
>all of the sudden an astral figure can directly affect the physical plane
>without magic..Cool so that means I can go astral..Pick up a plant [potted of
>course] and fling it at a physical target..or better yet..I can pick up some
>sort of living dagger while in astral form and cut the throats of the guards
>in the guardhouse that didn't see the dagger float into the
>room....Hmmmm...now this sounds fun..I can go on a run preform astral cover
>duties and get in on the fight.. :)

ICK!
Didn't think that one through all the way!
That could sure mess things up allright.
I'll have to rethink my stance on this stuff and be prepared for my wizards
trying that crap.


Hmmm, I don't know if I agree with this.....if you go look at Magister's
comments on the FAB-Net entry you see that he responds to some drekheaded
comment about astral entities having "casual mass". The slant that
Magister puts on it however is this(paraphrased): an astrally active aura
CANNOT interact with a non-astral aura. Period. What that means is that
even if you have a living organism that is microscopic, as long as it is
large enough to have an aura then the astral entity cannot effect it in
any way, saht or form. Therefore, if I am wandering down a forest trail
(for whatever reason) and I don't see that tiny piece of grass sticking
up, I WILL trip over it, simply because I cannot affect it, and I cannot
pass through it. This gets just a bit more complicated when you turn the
living entity into a net and drop it over someone. Now then, since the
net has an actual living presence it would tend to push the mage out of
the way. Of course, if the net were OVER him and thus being dragged down
(gravity does that I hear) the mage will get the trapped between the
proverbial FAB-net and Mother Earth and which will cause "forced
interaction" between the net's aura and that of the mage. I don't
believe that this would damage the mage however. Cause EXTREME pain?
Sure. But this is not just a case of a net cutting into a mage....it is
the interaction of 2 auras which, if it were to cause damage, would
damage BOTH of the auras involved and the rules specifically state that
an astrally projecting mage cannot in any way affect the physical plane.
Of course, while he is trapped under the net, he can't get back to his
own body and can start taking damage and eventually die that way, but not
directly from the net itself. In the case of the FAB-club, if the astral
entity were able to move freely, then the club would just puch him out of
the way...there is nothing forcing the interaction of the auras and thus,
the living aura takes precedence, and moves the mage. OTOH, if the mage
is trapped under a net and is hit with a club, then again it will cause
pain but not any damage, because then BOTH auras would be taking damage
and that is not possible.

chris
<Zero length text item>
Message no. 33
From: Joker <s1057948@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Fat-bac
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:37:20 +1000 (EST)
On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, David Buehrer wrote:

> Lady Jestyr wrote:
> |
> |> However, if you want to say that it can cause damage,
> |> because knownst only to you is that it is in fact sentient
> |> and linked to horrors, then I say bravo and congradulations
> |> for being a truely inspired GM.
> |
> |Aaaagh! Hush! Hush! My GM reads this list! :(
>
> Sorry ;) It could be worse. You could be playing in my
> game (dragons, vampires, corporations, insects, horror,
> gods, assasins, governments, illuminati, yakuza, etc. Not
> necesarily(sp?) in that order. But, no immortal elves :)
>
> -David

WHo said she's not, We're only three sessions in.....

===================================================================
If you ever drop your keys into a river of molten lava, let'em go,
because, man, they're gone.
===================================================================
The Joker,
Craig Chatfield. Email : s1057948@*****.student.gu.au

===================================================================
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate.
And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never
expect it.
Message no. 34
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Fat-bac
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:41:27 -0500 (EST)
< Hmmm, I don't know if I agree with this.....if you go look at Magister's
> comments on the FAB-Net entry you see that he responds to some drekheaded
> comment about astral entities having "casual mass". The slant that
> Magister puts on it however is this(paraphrased): an astrally active aura
> CANNOT interact with a non-astral aura. Period. What that means is that
> even if you have a living organism that is microscopic, as long as it is
> large enough to have an aura then the astral entity cannot effect it in
> any way, saht or form. Therefore, if I am wandering down a forest trail
> (for whatever reason) and I don't see that tiny piece of grass sticking
> up, I WILL trip over it, simply because I cannot affect it, and I cannot
> pass through it. This gets just a bit more complicated when you turn the
> living entity into a net and drop it over someone. Now then, since the
> net has an actual living presence it would tend to push the mage out of
> the way. Of course, if the net were OVER him and thus being dragged down
> (gravity does that I hear) the mage will get the trapped between the
> proverbial FAB-net and Mother Earth and which will cause "forced
> interaction" between the net's aura and that of the mage. I don't
> believe that this would damage the mage however. Cause EXTREME pain?
> Sure. But this is not just a case of a net cutting into a mage....it is
> the interaction of 2 auras which, if it were to cause damage, would
> damage BOTH of the auras involved and the rules specifically state that
> an astrally projecting mage cannot in any way affect the physical plane.
> Of course, while he is trapped under the net, he can't get back to his
> own body and can start taking damage and eventually die that way, but not
> directly from the net itself. In the case of the FAB-club, if the astral
> entity were able to move freely, then the club would just puch him out of
> the way...there is nothing forcing the interaction of the auras and thus,
> the living aura takes precedence, and moves the mage. OTOH, if the mage
> is trapped under a net and is hit with a club, then again it will cause
> pain but not any damage, because then BOTH auras would be taking damage
> and that is not possible.

Just what is the stun condition monitor for if not pain?
Wouldn't "extreme pain" cause a few boxes of damage on the condition monitor
chart?
Message no. 35
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fat-bac
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:08:42 +0100
In message <322D2294.791D@**.net>, GRANITE <granite@**.net> writes
>It..IMHO..is kinda like shooting down a crummy Skud missle with 5 high tech
>expenside patriot missles..Sure the Skud gets destroyed..But..I wouldn't want
>to be standing around when the debris from 6 missles start raining down..Did
>that make sense..It did when I first thought of it..Hmmmm...

Never stopped people firing AA guns upwards... the North Vietnamese
fired over a ton of steel and HE into the sky over Hanoi every night,
some periods of 1972, without apparent qualms.

Better lots of shrapnel falling, than a ton of HE warhead waiting to
detonate. Not many people out in the open during an air raid.

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 36
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Fat-bac
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 23:30:10 -0700
readle.cr@**.com wrote:
> > ..or better yet..I can pick up some
> >sort of living dagger while in astral form and cut the throats of the guards
> >in the guardhouse that didn't see the dagger float into the
> >room....Hmmmm...now this sounds fun..I can go on a run perform astral cover
> >duties and get in on the fight.. :)
>
> ICK!
> Didn't think that one through all the way!
> That could sure mess things up allright.
> I'll have to rethink my stance on this stuff and be prepared for my wizards
> trying that crap.
> Yea..I have this optical condition..I can often see both sides of a coin..And
I also have this brain disorder..I then think of all the devious, nasty ways
a thing can be perverted by a munchkin player...Not that I am a Mun..One of
those...


> ......This gets just a bit more complicated when you turn the
> living entity into a net and drop it over someone. Now then, since the
> net has an actual living presence it would tend to push the mage out of
> the way. Of course, if the net were OVER him and thus being dragged down
> (gravity does that I hear) the mage will get the trapped between the
> proverbial FAB-net and Mother Earth and which will cause "forced
> interaction" between the net's aura and that of the mage.

I don't believe in this forced interaction..I think of it more like squeezing
a watermelon seed between your fingers..Your fingers don't start to mingle
their atoms with those of the seed..the seed squirts out from between your
fingers..I think that if by some miracle you were able to get a net over an
astral mage as soon as the net hit another surface containing an aura the
mage would squirt out from in between...


===============
Loki wrote:
...... And if
> you don't play with FB in your game it's a moot point anyways.
>

Ah but a point cannot be moot unless it first gains weight..Once the point
has gained this weight a flame must be applied to remove this weight thus
rendering it..Then it has been rendered moot ;)

--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 37
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Re[3]: Fat-bac -Reply -Reply
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:46:20 +0100
Mike Elkins said on 10:03/ 4 Sep 96...

> Off the top of my head, how about loosing a point of your "summoning"
charisma
> every time you do this without the consent of the spirit. That way, it gets harder
> and harder to summon the more you do it.

Losing totem modifiers seems sufficient to me, for minor offenders anyway.
If the shaman doesn't get the message, increase TNs, remove more dice, or
completely let the totem lose contact with the shaman.

Hermetic mages should get no penalty, if you ask me. Look at the way
hundreds of rats get killed regularly to see what happens when they
are infected with some disease, for example. Mages are the scientist-
magicians, so they should be able to get away with doing this. Until the
GM buys Threats, that is :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The wrong way is trying to make everybody else do it the right way.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 38
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 96 19:23:25 +1100
>O.k. back to reality(heh now there's a relative thing to say)
>Fat-Bac seems to me to be pretty darn stupid. If you have a wall full of
>the stuff all you need to do is drill a small hole in the wall with an
>acid stream spell (for example) then use detox (or was it disinfect) poof
>no FB. Or if you want to blow a few karma design a slay FB spell.

You're missing the point... It's designed to stop, and TRAP, astral
intruders. You can't drill a hole in wall with an acid stream spell from
Astral space, nor can you target FAB with a spell from the Astral, as FAB
is _not_ astrally active. It's just normal, living matter, with an
unusually large (for a bacteria) aura.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 39
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fat-bac
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 96 19:23:37 +1100
>The physad could simply strike the mage with his hands, and achieve the same
>effect.
>However, he came up with this FB idea, and I allowed it, since essentially
>he's using his willpoer against the astral body, just like attacking a
>manifest spirit.

I wouldn't want to do it in the first place... If he goes in with Astral
Perception active, the mage zaps him with a Mana Bolt. And if all you
want to do is hurt him, go in without Astral Perception, pull up a chair,
and sit and gloat as his life drains away over the few hours he has left.


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 40
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: Re[3]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 96 19:23:12 +1100
>Summon up a watcher, order the poor little guy to manifest and ground
>something through the unfortunate little guy. Admittedly, its not going
>to work as well as an acid spell, or be as quiet, as it needs to be an
>area affect spell. But it should work,if yopu don;t mind burnt watcher...

Bzzzt... First: No conjuring from the Astral Plane. Second: Watchers
can't actually manifest. They can project an image to the physical plane,
much as the mage can, but they can't form the Astral-Physical link.

(And for any mage who does that to a REAL spirit, which they summoned, in
my game, well, the spirits talk back on the metaplanes, you know, and his
Big Brother Free Spirit might just want to come along and ask you to play
nicely)


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 41
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: Re[3]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 96 19:36:03 +1100
>> The only real trouble with these solutions is that you can't use any of
>> them from astral space. Not unless the FAB is dual-natured, which it is
>> not --
>Well..Now that all depends now doesn't it...As this point is purposly not
>adressed in the CS book...

Sheez, it's not like dual-nature isn't hard to test for, Granite. If FAB
was dual-natured, they wouldn't bother with it. It'd be more dangerous to
the corp than the mage caught in it. QED, it's not dual natured.


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 42
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[5]: Fat-bac -Reply -Reply
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 96 11:27:50 EST
> Summon up a watcher, order the poor little guy to manifest and ground
>something through the unfortunate little guy. Admittedly, its not going to
work as
>well as an acid spell, or be as quiet, as it needs to be an area affect spell.
But it
>should work,if yopu don;t mind burnt watcher...

You can't summon while astrally projecting, but if you always summon a watcher
or two beforehand to keep you company (not a bad idea anyway), this does work
fine. In fact, if you developed an area effect anti-bacteria spell it probably
wouldn't even hurt the watcher.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
ok, let me point out 2 things: a Shaman doing this WOULD get into trouble with
his totem, and a Mage doing this is forking 1000 ny and spending time summoning
the one-shot elemental at home. Also remember astral elementals are visible in
normal space as a "shimmering", the tn to see this is I believe 10 for a force
1 elemental [8 for force 2,...] , but if yuo are carrying 15 of those
[remember, they are one use items!] then all perceivers get to roll 15 times!,
with an average intelligence of 3 that is 45 dice, per observer. there are
bound to be a few 10's in there!!! which mean they will call for astral
backup.... etc. and there isn't a SINGLE group of pc's that can survive when
the prepared corp backup goons arrive IF the gm is doing his job properly. [and
not saying: gee, he throws that mighty hellblast 4 at you, and gets a s drain,
eeehh, you resist it fully? but he had 2 successes.. goh...but they were
supposed to be tough...]
Ferri
Message no. 43
From: readle.cr@**.com
Subject: Re[4]: Fat-bac
Date: 5 Sep 96 08:38:00 -0400
> ......This gets just a bit more complicated when you turn the
> living entity into a net and drop it over someone. Now then, since the
> net has an actual living presence it would tend to push the mage out of
> the way. Of course, if the net were OVER him and thus being dragged down
> (gravity does that I hear) the mage will get the trapped between the
> proverbial FAB-net and Mother Earth and which will cause "forced
> interaction" between the net's aura and that of the mage.

I don't believe in this forced interaction..I think of it more like squeezing
a watermelon seed between your fingers..Your fingers don't start to mingle
their atoms with those of the seed..the seed squirts out from between your
fingers..I think that if by some miracle you were able to get a net over an
astral mage as soon as the net hit another surface containing an aura the
mage would squirt out from in between...


The only problem I see with that idea(not that I like FAB any better
than you do) is that the analogy you are using is based on 2 entities
that have mass. In this case, only only of the entities possesses
that particular attribute. In this case, it seems that an aura that
is "attached" to living tissue is astrally "stronger" and
therefore
able to be used in this fashion.

===============
Loki wrote:
...... And if
> you don't play with FB in your game it's a moot point anyways.
>

Ah but a point cannot be moot unless it first gains weight..Once the point
has gained this weight a flame must be applied to remove this weight thus
rendering it..Then it has been rendered moot ;)

--
-------------------------------GRANITE

But what if the point has no mass? Then we would have to give it a
thwap to add mass, THEN we could flame it...to render it moot, of
course....what is FAB good for? :)

chris
<Zero length text item>
Message no. 44
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Fat-bac
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:08:34 -0600 (MDT)
GRANITE wrote:
|
[snip: interaction between physical and astral]
|
|I don't believe in this forced interaction..I think of it more like squeezing
|a watermelon seed between your fingers..Your fingers don't start to mingle
|their atoms with those of the seed..the seed squirts out from between your
|fingers..I think that if by some miracle you were able to get a net over an
|astral mage as soon as the net hit another surface containing an aura the
|mage would squirt out from in between...

So if an astral being is squished between two or more auras
he will squirt out through an opening. I like it. But, it
is hypotheticaly possible to set up a situation where there
is no opening available to squirt through. Using genetics
make a large box out of living wood, put an astral being in
the box, and push two opposing walls together until you've
completely squished the astral being. Would you allow the
being to squirt out through the microscopic gap, or would
you say integrity of the being keeps the walls from coming
together, or does the physics of astral space allow the
being to squirt out through another dimension (as in
length, width, height, ?), or does the astral being get
anhilated? Or, (last one) does something truely bizare
happen?

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 45
From: readle.cr@**.com
Subject: Re[4]: Fat-bac
Date: 5 Sep 96 09:28:00 -0400
Message authorized by:
: /S=bluewizard@ncweb.com/OU=SMTP/O=1.UCN.GO.1/P=PROCTERGAMBLE/A=MCI/C=US/ a

[snip my big long post about FAB]
Just what is the stun condition monitor for if not pain?
Wouldn't "extreme pain" cause a few boxes of damage on the condition monitor
chart?


I guess that I can maybe see some stun damage from the pain....I don't
think that it would would carry over into the physical though....remember,
the entire premise behind FAB is to TRAP the mage, NOT kill him directly.
It can ,of course, kill him by keeping him away from his body for too
long, but it was enver intended as a direct damage item(because there's no
counter....if you use it as a direct damage weapon(like a club) then there
is no point in buying foci except for maybe a little bit more damage)
weapon foci are designed to be direct damage and thus, have a counter(they
can be attacked) which balances the game out.

chris
Message no. 46
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Fat-bac
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:53:16 -0500 (EST)
>>The physad could simply strike the mage with his hands, and achieve the same
>>effect.
>>However, he came up with this FB idea, and I allowed it, since essentially
>>he's using his willpoer against the astral body, just like attacking a
>>manifest spirit.
>
>I wouldn't want to do it in the first place... If he goes in with Astral
>Perception active, the mage zaps him with a Mana Bolt. And if all you
>want to do is hurt him, go in without Astral Perception, pull up a chair,
>and sit and gloat as his life drains away over the few hours he has left.

Ahh but that would invlove patience, something my runners seriously lack! :-)
Message no. 47
From: Jamie Houston <s430472@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Fat-bac
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:17:54 +1000 (EST)
On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, The Jestyr wrote:

>
> > However, if you want to say that it can cause damage,
> > because knownst only to you is that it is in fact sentient
> > and linked to horrors, then I say bravo and congradulations
> > for being a truely inspired GM.
>
> Aaaagh! Hush! Hush! My GM reads this list! :(
>
Hey...it shouldn't be any problem for us...we can't go astral! So go
ahead and read it nasty Mr. GM man...I dare ya monkey boy...

I mean that in the nicest possible way of course Mr Nice GM man *grin*

Hamish, The mad Scotsman...



______________________________________________________________________
Jamie Houston * "If a kid asks why it's raining,
aka Bollox, Hamish,(and * a cute thing to tell him is "God is
lots of other unmentionable * crying"...And if he asks why God is
pseudonyms) * crying, another cute thing to tell
s430472@*****.student.gu.edu.au * him is "It's probably something
Griffith Uni * you did!"
______________________________________________________________________
Message no. 48
From: Jamie Houston <s430472@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Fat-bac
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:03:27 +1000 (EST)
On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Joker wrote:

> On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, David Buehrer wrote:
>
> > Lady Jestyr wrote:
> > |
> > |> However, if you want to say that it can cause damage,
> > |> because knownst only to you is that it is in fact sentient
> > |> and linked to horrors, then I say bravo and congradulations
> > |> for being a truely inspired GM.
> > |
> > |Aaaagh! Hush! Hush! My GM reads this list! :(
> >
> > Sorry ;) It could be worse. You could be playing in my
> > game (dragons, vampires, corporations, insects, horror,
> > gods, assasins, governments, illuminati, yakuza, etc. Not
> > necesarily(sp?) in that order. But, no immortal elves :)
> >
> > -David
>
> WHo said she's not, We're only three sessions in.....

Don't go there man...big nasty bears in there man!

Hamish the mad Scotsman....who loves his GM greatly....
>
> ===================================================================
> If you ever drop your keys into a river of molten lava, let'em go,
> because, man, they're gone.
> ===================================================================
> The Joker,
> Craig Chatfield. Email : s1057948@*****.student.gu.au
>
> ===================================================================
> I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate.
> And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never
> expect it.
> ===================================================================
>
>

>From s430472@*******.gu.edu.auFri Aug 16 10:25:29 1996
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 10:24:01 +1000 (EST)
From: Jamie Houston <s430472@*******.gu.edu.au>
To: "JAMIE A. HOUSTON" <s430472@*****.student.gu.edu.au>



______________________________________________________________________
Jamie Houston * "If a kid asks why it's raining,
aka Bollox, Hamish,(and * a cute thing to tell him is "God is
lots of other unmentionable * crying"...And if he asks why God is
pseudonyms) * crying, another cute thing to tell
s430472@*****.student.gu.edu.au * him is "It's probably something
Griffith Uni * you did!"
______________________________________________________________________
Message no. 49
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: Re[4]: Fat-bac
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 19:18:30 -0700
readle.cr@**.com wrote:
> I don't believe in this forced interaction..I think of it more like squeezing
> a watermelon seed between your fingers..Your fingers don't start to mingle
> their atoms with those of the seed..the seed squirts out from between your
> fingers..I think that if by some miracle you were able to get a net over an
> astral mage as soon as the net hit another surface containing an aura the
> mage would squirt out from in between...
>
>
> The only problem I see with that idea(not that I like FAB any better
> than you do) is that the analogy you are using is based on 2 entities
> that have mass. In this case, only only of the entities possesses
> that particular attribute. In this case, it seems that an aura that
> is "attached" to living tissue is astrally "stronger" and
therefore
> able to be used in this fashion.
>

Ah..but if you check out the CS book you will find that the factor is not
mass but aura..both have an aura and thus my analogy holds up..and is
supported by the rules in the back of CS..at least up to a point..

> ===============
> Loki wrote:
> ...... And if
> > you don't play with FB in your game it's a moot point anyways.
> >
>
> Ah but a point cannot be moot unless it first gains weight..Once the point
> has gained this weight a flame must be applied to remove this weight thus
> rendering it..Then it has been rendered moot ;)
>
> --
> -------------------------------GRANITE
>
> But what if the point has no mass? Then we would have to give it a
> thwap to add mass, THEN we could flame it...to render it moot, of
> course....what is FAB good for? :)
>

If the point has no mass then..there is no point in the first place..
FAB is good for cleaning clothes I hear..Although I am partial to Tide.. ;)
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 50
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Fat-bac
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 22:23:36 -0700
David Buehrer wrote:
> So if an astral being is squished between two or more auras
> he will squirt out through an opening. I like it.

Why thank you..

> But, it
> is hypotheticaly possible to set up a situation where there
> is no opening available to squirt through. Using genetics
> make a large box out of living wood, put an astral being in
> the box, and push two opposing walls together until you've
> completely squished the astral being. Would you allow the
> being to squirt out through the microscopic gap, or would
> you say integrity of the being keeps the walls from coming
> together, or does the physics of astral space allow the
> being to squirt out through another dimension (as in
> length, width, height, ?), or does the astral being get
> anhilated? Or, (last one) does something truely bizare
> happen?
>

First..There would have to be openings to allow any atmosphere inside the bow
to escape..And since "Over on this side, you are what you will, not what you
think!..." [Quote from core rules] an astral entity could alter size and
escape..In the event this is occuring in a vacume as the living box dies the
aura of the box and that of the astral entity attempt to merge and upon so
doing one promptly dies..The one with the lower willpower..
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 51
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: Re[3]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 22:38:05 -0700
Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> >> The only real trouble with these solutions is that you can't use any of
> >> them from astral space. Not unless the FAB is dual-natured, which it is
> >> not --
> >Well..Now that all depends now doesn't it...As this point is purposly not
> >adressed in the CS book...
>
> Sheez, it's not like dual-nature isn't hard to test for, Granite. If FAB
> was dual-natured, they wouldn't bother with it. It'd be more dangerous to
> the corp than the mage caught in it. QED, it's not dual natured.
>

Actually my first statement was not entirely correct..FAB is refered to as
being astrally active AND dual natured in the CS book......Look it up...
Start on pg 65...
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 52
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 22:44:26 -0700
Robert Watkins wrote:
> You're missing the point... It's designed to stop, and TRAP, astral
> intruders.

Well, it seems more like it is designed to slow rather than stop...

> You can't drill a hole in wall with an acid stream spell from
> Astral space, nor can you target FAB with a spell from the Astral, as FAB
> is _not_ astrally active.

Well now that all depends on what parts of the CS book you believe..Check out
pg 65..

It's just normal, living matter, with an
> unusually large (for a bacteria) aura.
>

Actually the bacteria itself is what is unusually large...
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 53
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[5]: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 16:23:18 EST
<reply>

%Robert Watkins wrote:

%> >> The only real trouble with these solutions is that you can't use any
%of them from astral space. Not unless the FAB is dual-natured, which %it
is > not --
%> >Well..Now that all depends now doesn't it...As this point is purposly
%not>adressed in the CS book...
%>
%> Sheez, it's not like dual-nature isn't hard to test for, Granite. If FAB
%> was dual-natured, they wouldn't bother with it. It'd be more dangerous
%to > the corp than the mage caught in it. QED, it's not dual natured.
%>

%Actually my first statement was not entirely correct..FAB is refered to as
%being astrally active AND dual natured in the CS book......Look it up...
%Start on pg 65...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm will check this tonight. but this would mean you CAN ground
through them. If so then I don't mind them, they would work as an
alarm instead of a wall.
Ferri
Message no. 54
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fat-bac -Reply
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 96 10:27:17 +1100
>> You can't drill a hole in wall with an acid stream spell from
>> Astral space, nor can you target FAB with a spell from the Astral, as FAB
>> is _not_ astrally active.
>
>Well now that all depends on what parts of the CS book you believe..Check
>out
>pg 65..

Oh look, this is just plain silly. Okay, CS, like all the other
sourcebooks has that "not verified" waiver from Shadowland on it.
However, something like dual nature is just too bloody easy to verify. If
it was dual natured, then every mage that saw it would know, as it would
show up "more brightly" on the Astral, and the corps wouldn't keep it
around because it would be a security threat. QE bloody D (as my
lecturers used to say when someone kept asking silly questions) it's NOT
dual natured or astrally active.

>It's just normal, living matter, with an
>> unusually large (for a bacteria) aura.
>>
>
>Actually the bacteria itself is what is unusually large...

It's both, actually, but it's the aura that counts.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 55
From: Stephen Delear <shadow@***.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Fat-bac
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 01:03:36 -0500 (CDT)
On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, David Buehrer wrote:

> GRANITE wrote:
> |
> [snip: interaction between physical and astral]
> |
> |I don't believe in this forced interaction..I think of it more like squeezing
> |a watermelon seed between your fingers..Your fingers don't start to mingle
> |their atoms with those of the seed..the seed squirts out from between your
> |fingers..I think that if by some miracle you were able to get a net over an
> |astral mage as soon as the net hit another surface containing an aura the
> |mage would squirt out from in between...
>
> So if an astral being is squished between two or more auras
> he will squirt out through an opening. I like it. But, it
> is hypotheticaly possible to set up a situation where there
> is no opening available to squirt through. Using genetics
> make a large box out of living wood, put an astral being in
> the box, and push two opposing walls together until you've
> completely squished the astral being. Would you allow the
> being to squirt out through the microscopic gap, or would
> you say integrity of the being keeps the walls from coming
> together, or does the physics of astral space allow the
> being to squirt out through another dimension (as in
> length, width, height, ?), or does the astral being get
> anhilated? Or, (last one) does something truely bizare
> happen?
>
> -David

Personally I'd say he goes to visit the meta-plane of your choice and if
initiated he can attempt an astral quest to come back (if he's
uninitiated he still goes to a metaplanes and stays there until he either
finds a way back or dies).

SteveD

>
> /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
> "His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
> underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
> ~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
>

Further Reading

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