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Message no. 1
From: Mike and Jill Johnson <shadowrn@************.NET>
Subject: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:25:09 -0700
While Mamoulian was making up the dwarf charactor for our game this last
saturday, we came up with the question. "What is the Shadowrunners Choice
in pistols". Years ago it used to the Predator. Then they came out with
the Predator II. Now we have have the Savallette Guardian. I know that
in our group the weapon of choice is the Savallette but what about the
other groups out there?

MnJ
Message no. 2
From: Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:49:36 -0700
Quoth Mike and Jill Johnson:
>
> While Mamoulian was making up the dwarf charactor for our game this last
> saturday, we came up with the question. "What is the Shadowrunners Choice
> in pistols". Years ago it used to the Predator. Then they came out with
> the Predator II. Now we have have the Savallette Guardian. I know that
> in our group the weapon of choice is the Savallette but what about the
> other groups out there?

Frankly, it's the one in your hand when you need to shoot it. We got
ambushed during an insurance fraud run during our session yesterday. We
had to go in sans weapons and right behind us an unknown group attacked
the building going after the same Van Gogh we were after. My character
acquired a medium pistol that some stupid corp was waving around and was
never so happy to have a medium pistol. He normally carries a Narcojet
pistol, a Savalette, and a Walther PB-120 with a silencer. The more
important part of the equation is the skill involved. The better of a
shot you are then it doesn't matter what you're using.

--
Mike Loseke | Eagles may soar, but weasels
mike@*******.com | aren't sucked into jet engines.
Message no. 3
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:21:35 -0700
Mike and Jill Johnson wrote:
|
| While Mamoulian was making up the dwarf charactor for our game this last
| saturday, we came up with the question. "What is the Shadowrunners Choice
| in pistols". Years ago it used to the Predator. Then they came out with
| the Predator II. Now we have have the Savallette Guardian. I know that
| in our group the weapon of choice is the Savallette but what about the
| other groups out there?

Taser :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 4
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:49:30 -0500
MnJ asked:

>While Mamoulian was making up the dwarf charactor for our game this last
>saturday, we came up with the question. "What is the Shadowrunners Choice
>in pistols". Years ago it used to the Predator. Then they came out with
>the Predator II. Now we have have the Savallette Guardian. I know that
>in our group the weapon of choice is the Savallette but what about the
>other groups out there?


I, was always partial to the Predator 2 for several reasons. They have a
decent ammo capacity, and they are common enough that parts are easy to come
by, and they don't stand out, plus enough people have seen them on the trid
to still be frightened of them. All in all, it makes a great concealed
carry weapon, and is still a great back up.

Later-
Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Berek Thunderfist, Wolf Lord of the Blackmane Company
-Freelance Corporate Espionage Agent
-Tech Priest in Training
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
"Your eyes shiver and you grit your teeth,
you've sold your soul, now cold blood's how you get relief."
-Ice T
Message no. 5
From: -=/*{Chaszmyr}/*=- <d96403@***.LYNGBYES.DK>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:46:47 +0100
At 18.25 02-11-97 -0700, you wrote:
>While Mamoulian was making up the dwarf charactor for our game this last
>saturday, we came up with the question. "What is the Shadowrunners Choice
>in pistols". Years ago it used to the Predator. Then they came out with
>the Predator II. Now we have have the Savallette Guardian. I know that
>in our group the weapon of choice is the Savallette but what about the
>other groups out there?
>
>MnJ

In my group where im a pc, its the Colt Manhunter or a Ares Predator II. A
single member is wielding 2 custom made Super Warhawks.

Just my 2 cents ;)


Chaszmyr
Check out my homepage on:
http://delfi.lyngbyes.dk/~d96403



"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
Yet with strange aeons, even Death may die."
Howard P. Lovecraft
Message no. 6
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 03:17:40 EST
On Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:25:09 -0700 Mike and Jill Johnson writes:
>While Mamoulian was making up the dwarf charactor for our game this last
>saturday, we came up with the question. "What is the Shadowrunners
Choice
>in pistols". Years ago it used to the Predator. Then they came out
with
>the Predator II. Now we have have the Savallette Guardian. I know
that
>in our group the weapon of choice is the Savallette but what about the
>other groups out there?

Does a Remington Roomsweeper count?
(favorites of a Dwarf mage and a Crow shaman)

Or, the Ares Viper Slivergun, or a Narcoject/Squirt pistol.

~Tim (OK, everyone else likes the Guardian too..even the other dwarf)
Message no. 7
From: Allan Petersen <ap@******.DK>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:08:35 +0100
Mike and Jill Johnson wrote:
>
> While Mamoulian was making up the dwarf charactor for our game this last
> saturday, we came up with the question. "What is the Shadowrunners
Choice
> in pistols". Years ago it used to the Predator. Then they came out with
> the Predator II. Now we have have the Savallette Guardian. I know that
> in our group the weapon of choice is the Savallette but what about the
> other groups out there?

Depends, on the street i would carry a Savallette, in a restaurant etc. i
would
look at the concealability of the gun. A Colt L36 with APDS is not bad if
you are
smartlinked etc.

allan
Denmark
Message no. 8
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:24:38 +0000
> saturday, we came up with the question. "What is the Shadowrunners Choice
> in pistols". Years ago it used to the Predator. Then they came out with
> the Predator II. Now we have have the Savallette Guardian. I know that
> in our group the weapon of choice is the Savallette but what about the
> other groups out there?

My group cycles. top choices are:

Guardian (natch)
Pulsar (Expensive, but effective)
Squirt (mostly underused however)
Ultra-power (started because I wanted to be different from PredII or
Guardian, then caught on)
Narcojet (pfft....thud)
Ruger Thuderbolt (they have troubles getting them, but if you check
the Lone Star catalog, they're supposed to be on the public market
now)

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 9
From: adonis <adonis@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:39:31 -0500
----------
> From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
> Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 3:17 AM
>
> On Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:25:09 -0700 Mike and Jill Johnson writes:
> >While Mamoulian was making up the dwarf charactor for our game this last
> >saturday, we came up with the question. "What is the Shadowrunners
> Choice
> >in pistols". Years ago it used to the Predator. Then they came out
[snip]

Ours are just about anything by Ares!

Specifically - Ares Slivergun and the Pred 2!! Yeah boy!

Although a surprising number of corp types like the Browning Max Power. I
carry one as backup in my glove compartment of my suped SAAB Dynamit778
TI...

SOOiCydE
Message no. 10
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:11:43 +0000
On 2 Nov 97, Mike and Jill Johnson disseminated foul capitalist
propaganda by writing:

> While Mamoulian was making up the dwarf charactor for our game this
> last saturday, we came up with the question. "What is the
> Shadowrunners Choice in pistols". Years ago it used to the
> Predator. Then they came out with the Predator II. Now we have
> have the Savallette Guardian. I know that in our group the weapon
> of choice is the Savallette but what about the other groups out
> there?

Well, our weapon of choice is customized Colt Manhunter with caseless
ammo... Though only 'cause our GM said "Savalette Guardian does not
exist in my world yet".
Of course, we were pretty pissed off when our GM gave the Savalette
to a new character just 'cause he was new to SR (hey, he said it
does not exist...).


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
Cars can damage your health.
Message no. 11
From: "Logan Graves <Fenris>" <logan1@*****.INTERCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:51:40 -0500
The udder day, Mike and Jill Johnson pondered:
>
> While Mamoulian was making up the dwarf charactor for our game this
> last saturday, we came up with the question. "What is the
> Shadowrunners Choice in pistols?"

I personally have always favored the Remmington Roomsweeper. It's very
versatile when user with the various "specialty" ammo loads. (It's
almost as flexible as a mini-grenade launcher).

But these days, it's often the ammo, not the gun that's more
customizable. Even a light pistol can be beefed up to an
armor-penetrator with the right loads.

(Some special shells. See the BKK's "Engineer's Fun Page" or the Tarot
Firarms "Spring 2055 Catalogue" for lots & lots more!!)
Type Effect
-----------------------------------------
Buckshot (Yawn) 9S(f)
Flash +6/+3 Targ No's
Gel/Pancake 7M(stun)
Gel w/Toxin 7M(stun) + 6D(toxin),etc
Illumination "Partial Light" for 3 Rds
Needler (AP) 9S(f) vs. (.5 Armor)
Slug/Ball 9M
Slug Explosive 10M
Paint (IR)
Smoke As mini-grenade (.5 diam)
Smoke (IR) As mini-grenade (.5 diam)
Tear Gas 6D(toxin),etc (as smoke)

--Fenris
_______________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) I got the shotgun blues, shotgun blues.
I said I don't know what I did, but I know I gotta move...
I can't stay here forever, I got too much here to lose...
Listen mother-fragger you're about to pay your dues...
If you're goin' up against me, then you know you're gonna lose!
(>) --Axl Rose, rockerboy
Message no. 12
From: Spidey-mon <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:22:56 -0600
Mike and Jill Johnson wrote:
>
> While Mamoulian was making up the dwarf charactor for our game this last
> saturday, we came up with the question. "What is the Shadowrunners Choice
> in pistols". Years ago it used to the Predator. Then they came out with
> the Predator II. Now we have have the Savallette Guardian. I know that
> in our group the weapon of choice is the Savallette but what about the
> other groups out there?

Has to be either a Viper, or a Roomsweeper.My fave is the
Roomsweeper,fondly called the broom.It has some fun mods(pistol grip
removed,special stock put in to reduce recoil[took it from an Ares R&D
lab]).
Message no. 13
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:46:26 +0000
In article <3.0.3.32.19971102182509.00914730@********.cyberhighway.net>,
Mike and Jill Johnson <shadowrn@************.NET> writes
>While Mamoulian was making up the dwarf charactor for our game this last
>saturday, we came up with the question. "What is the Shadowrunners Choice
>in pistols". Years ago it used to the Predator. Then they came out with
>the Predator II. Now we have have the Savallette Guardian. I know that
>in our group the weapon of choice is the Savallette but what about the
>other groups out there?

Customised Browning Max-Power with improved Gas Vent 2 and smartgun II,
for one character.

A 1990s Colt Python, for another.



--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 14
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:30:13 EST
On Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:22:56 -0600 Spidey-mon <elfman@*****.NET> writes:

>Has to be either a Viper, or a Roomsweeper.My fave is the
>Roomsweeper,fondly called the broom.It has some fun mods(pistol grip
>removed,special stock put in to reduce recoil[took it from an Ares R&D
>lab]).

Wait a minute.. why do you need recoil mods on the Roomsweeper?
And a *stock*?!?

-----
I still remember a game where someone asked why the Roomsweeper was so
concealable, and someone called out ".. 'cause the shells stick out past
the barrel!"

~Tim (guess you had to be there :)
Message no. 15
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:15:32 +0100
> While Mamoulian was making up the dwarf charactor for our game this
> last saturday, we came up with the question. "What is the
> Shadowrunners Choice in pistols?"

Mostly, the predator 2 or the roomsweeper... runners without
smartlink seem to prefer the colt manhunter.
Strangely enough, nobody in my team uses a savalette...
The ruger super warhawk with reflexive trigger was my personal
choice.

ss
Message no. 16
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:20:00 GMT
on 02.11.97 shadowrn@************.NET wrote:

s> While Mamoulian was making up the dwarf charactor for our game this last
s> saturday, we came up with the question. "What is the Shadowrunners Choice
s> in pistols". Years ago it used to the Predator. Then they came out with
s> the Predator II. Now we have have the Savallette Guardian. I know that
s> in our group the weapon of choice is the Savallette but what about the
s> other groups out there?

Well, everybody loves the Savalette, but it's milSpec in our game...
Anyway, as we run a mostly style-based game, we have about everything that
ever came out. Predators, Manhunters, Ultra- and Max-Powers. Even Glocks.
I once had a char, who never left his house without his Ruger Thunderbold
and a flammer-pistol :) (Then again, that game was kinda muchie).

The Predator 2, though, was never really excepted by any of us. O.K., if
you just refitted your old Predator with a smartlink, you pay a bit more,
but the No.1 simply looks better and has one additional point of
concealment...

Oh yeah, and we simly love to make our own weapons up...

Narcoject and Tasers seems to be the weapons of choice in my group ATM.
Someone figured out that the elven Sammy's gonna die (in a really nasty
way) for killing three Spikes. Now they all buy *loads* of gelammo and
narcos....I wonder why....<egmg>

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
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Message no. 17
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:55:25 -0700
Tim Cooper wrote:
/
/ On Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:22:56 -0600 Spidey-mon <elfman@*****.NET> writes:
/
/ >Has to be either a Viper, or a Roomsweeper.My fave is the
/ >Roomsweeper,fondly called the broom.It has some fun mods(pistol grip
/ >removed,special stock put in to reduce recoil[took it from an Ares R&D
/ >lab]).
/
/ Wait a minute.. why do you need recoil mods on the Roomsweeper?
/ And a *stock*?!?

The Roomsweeper's recoil is +2 (because it's a shotgun it's treated
as a heavy weapon). I'm pretty sure that it's a semi-automatic
weapon. So if you want to fire it twice per action (who wouldn't :)
you might want to consider taking care of the recoil mod for the
second shot.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 18
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:00:52 GMT
On Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:25:09 -0700, Mike and Jill Johnson
<shadowrn@************.NET> wrote:

>While Mamoulian was making up the dwarf charactor for our game this last
>saturday, we came up with the question. "What is the Shadowrunners =
Choice
>in pistols". Years ago it used to the Predator. Then they came out =
with
>the Predator II. Now we have have the Savallette Guardian. I know =
that
>in our group the weapon of choice is the Savallette but what about the
>other groups out there?

I can't speak for the rest of our gaming group, but for myself, I
kinda prefer a matched set of "sawed-off" Defiance T-250s (which the
BBB treats as a pistol for range purposes).



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 19
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:14:00 GMT
on 03.11.97 trrkt@*****.ONET.PL wrote:

t> Well, our weapon of choice is customized Colt Manhunter with caseless
t> ammo... Though only 'cause our GM said "Savalette Guardian does not
t> exist in my world yet".
t> Of course, we were pretty pissed off when our GM gave the Savalette
t> to a new character just 'cause he was new to SR (hey, he said it
t> does not exist...).

Well, actually I think this wasn't a bad idea. If you give a rookie
something really powerful to play with, he'll pretty soon figure out that
incredible firepower gives you more problems than anything. I gave our
rookie a SuperMach 100 and after killing a couple of folks he better
hadn't offed, he's learning. Lots of beginners try SR with some John Woo-
image in their minds. They think about massive destruction, mass murder
and lots of gunfights. One of the fastest ways to show them reality is to
let them try and lose.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
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Message no. 20
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:41:59 +0000
On 3 Nov 97, Tobias Berghoff disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
by writing:

> Well, everybody loves the Savalette, but it's milSpec in our game...
I think I can guess why. <grin>

> The Predator 2, though, was never really excepted by any of us.
> O.K., if you just refitted your old Predator with a smartlink, you
> pay a bit more, but the No.1 simply looks better and has one
> additional point of concealment...

Well, I always prefered Manhunter. Mainly for the additional ammo
capacity. (Besides, when I play mages or adepts...)

> Narcoject and Tasers seems to be the weapons of choice in my group
> ATM. Someone figured out that the elven Sammy's gonna die (in a
> really nasty way) for killing three Spikes. Now they all buy *loads*
> of gelammo and narcos....I wonder why....<egmg>

Yeah, but narcoject rounds are not cheap. It's more cost-effective to
kill somebody. <grin>


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
Violez votre Alma Mater.
Message no. 21
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:23:01 GMT
On Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:55:25 -0700, David Buehrer
<dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG> wrote:

>Tim Cooper wrote:
>/
>/ On Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:22:56 -0600 Spidey-mon <elfman@*****.NET> =
writes:
>/
>/ >Has to be either a Viper, or a Roomsweeper.My fave is the
>/ >Roomsweeper,fondly called the broom.It has some fun mods(pistol grip
>/ >removed,special stock put in to reduce recoil[took it from an Ares =
R&D
>/ >lab]).
>/
>/ Wait a minute.. why do you need recoil mods on the Roomsweeper?
>/ And a *stock*?!?
>
>The Roomsweeper's recoil is +2 (because it's a shotgun it's treated
>as a heavy weapon).

I'm not sure it is treated like a shotgun, considering its damage
rating and concealibility. It might fire small loads of shot, housed
in cartridge casings the size of .45 ACP brass, but I doubt it's
anything like a 12 gauge or even a .410 shot cartridge. IMHO, the
"double" recoil wouldn't apply to this weapon.

And somebody at FASA better change that damn Concealibility=8 figure
for the Roomsweeper in SR3-- it's an eyesore :)





James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 22
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:44:04 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-04 00:46:00 EST, bxb121@***.EDU (Brett Borger)
writes:

>
> My group cycles. top choices are:
>
> Guardian (natch)
> Pulsar (Expensive, but effective)
> Squirt (mostly underused however)
> Ultra-power (started because I wanted to be different from PredII or
> Guardian, then caught on)
> Narcojet (pfft....thud)
> Ruger Thuderbolt (they have troubles getting them, but if you check
> the Lone Star catalog, they're supposed to be on the public market
> now)
>
Sad to say, the group(s) here that I entwine with are different yet. PredII
is in there of course, with a Savallette in the hands of a new guy (IIRC).
But then the Cascade jumps in (I had a character who got into chemistry,
others followed) with the Barret following up the tail.

I know, the last one isn't a pistol,but the way some of them play, you would
think it was a hold-out.

-K
Message no. 23
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:17:20 +0100
David Buehrer said on 11:55/ 4 Nov 97...

> The Roomsweeper's recoil is +2 (because it's a shotgun it's treated
> as a heavy weapon). I'm pretty sure that it's a semi-automatic
> weapon. So if you want to fire it twice per action (who wouldn't :)
> you might want to consider taking care of the recoil mod for the
> second shot.

Perhaps the rule got revised in later editions of SRII, but my hardcover
copy has no such rule, and the errata for SRII only mentions that
_full-automatic_ shotguns are considered heavy weapons for calculating
recoil. That's a bit weird, since FASA's SR has no FA shotguns...

However, looking at the errata now, that's what the errata for the
softcover book says. The errata for the hardcover reads "Double the
uncompensated recoil for medium and heavy machineguns (heavy weapons) and
shotguns."

Anyone have a recent printing to check this? It should be on page 89
somewhere.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Self-inflicted doom.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 24
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:05:46 +0100
Leszek Karlik, aka Mike said on 21:41/ 4 Nov 97...

> > Well, everybody loves the Savalette, but it's milSpec in our game...
> I think I can guess why. <grin>

Since it fires more than one round per pull of the trigger, I call it an
automatic weapon, legality class G rather than E. As such, getting a
license for it (something my current players seem to want to do for all
weapons they can get one for) is just about impossible. That, in turn,
makes it hard to bring such a weapon into any sort of public place that
has weapons scanners...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Self-inflicted doom.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 25
From: Bjoern Elberling <belbe@**********.DE>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:01:11 +0100
Mike and Jill Johnson wrote:

> While Mamoulian was making up the dwarf charactor for our game this last
> saturday, we came up with the question. "What is the Shadowrunners Choice
> in pistols". Years ago it used to the Predator. Then they came out with
> the Predator II. Now we have have the Savallette Guardian. I know that
> in our group the weapon of choice is the Savallette but what about the
> other groups out there?
>
> MnJ

Well, so far I have only GMed and not played, and mostly CP2020,but
anyway, in my opinion, there are several options that seem cool (not
necessarily looking at game stats, but at role-playing reasonings):

-Two Wondernines (high quality, pretty high clip capacity 9mm semi-auto
pistols), pretty much without mods. To be used "bad-boys" style, firing
simultaneously (sp?) while running, crouching or whenever.
-One or Two "stylish" revolvers, meaning those which have been built for
centuries and may have already been used in the Wild West (Peacemaker,
Warhawk etc.)
These should be worn very easily noticeable in "old-style" holsters.
- One heavy-cailber pistol with mods like smartgun induction pads,
silencer etc, as a "professional's gun" for use when an assault cannon
just won't be acceptable.
- A high-caliber holdout like the Colt Take-Down from Running Gear, to
be carried in your pocket, under your hat or wherever. Of course, this
should _not_ be your only weapon (or your only pistol for that matter)
- The Remington Roomsweeper

I'll leave it up to those who know SR "by-heart" to give names to those
guns I only mentioned by category.

Elbe
Message no. 26
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:26:12 -0500
On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:17:20 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:

>However, looking at the errata now, that's what the errata for the
>softcover book says. The errata for the hardcover reads "Double the
>uncompensated recoil for medium and heavy machineguns (heavy weapons)
>and
>shotguns."
>
>Anyone have a recent printing to check this? It should be on page 89
>somewhere.


"Double the uncompensated recoil modifiers for heavy weapons
(specifically, medium and heavy machine guns and shotguns)."

p89, SR2.


So, guess the answer would be 'yep':)


--
John Pederson "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!"
aka Canthros, shapeshifter-mage --South Park
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 27
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:52:52 EST
On Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:55:25 -0700 David Buehrer writes:
>Tim Cooper wrote:

>/ Wait a minute.. why do you need recoil mods on the Roomsweeper?
>/ And a *stock*?!?
>
>The Roomsweeper's recoil is +2 (because it's a shotgun it's treated
>as a heavy weapon). I'm pretty sure that it's a semi-automatic
>weapon. So if you want to fire it twice per action (who wouldn't :)
>you might want to consider taking care of the recoil mod for the
>second shot.

OK, sure.. but my main gripe was the mention of a stock... it's a pistol
sized weapon forcryinoutloud (or it's at least really small, given that
Conc. of 8), and (now all you gun-people out there correct me if I'm
wrong) but last time I checked you had to brace stocks against something
for them to be of any use.

~Tim (who alwaysed used it as a sort of "Surprise!" weapon)
Message no. 28
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:20:00 -0500
At 11:52 PM 11/5/97 EST, you wrote:>
>OK, sure.. but my main gripe was the mention of a stock... it's a pistol
>sized weapon forcryinoutloud (or it's at least really small, given that
>Conc. of 8), and (now all you gun-people out there correct me if I'm
>wrong) but last time I checked you had to brace stocks against something
>for them to be of any use.

Actually, everyone I know has taken that 8 as a silly mistake. It's not a
hold-out pistol. As for the stock, well, several pistols have been
equipped with stocks, usually as a detachable brace for better accuracy.


losthalo@********.comGoFa6)7(Im6TJt)Fe(7P!ShMoB4/19.2Bk!cBkc8MBV6sM3ZG
oPuTeiClbMehC6a23=n4bSSH173g4L??96FmT1Ea4@*********************
4h7sM8zSsYnk6BSMmpFNN0393NHfsSLusOH5Whileyouarelisteningyourwillingat
tentionismakingyoumoreandmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome.
Message no. 29
From: lucifer <lucifer@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:02:20 -0600
losthalo wrote:
>
> Actually, everyone I know has taken that 8 as a silly mistake. It's =
not a
> hold-out pistol. As for the stock, well, several pistols have been
> equipped with stocks, usually as a detachable brace for better accuracy=
.
>
Well AFA the conceal, keep in mind that if it is a mistake it has NEVER =
been
corrected in any reprint of the roomsweeper stats. It could just be the =

particular shape of the RS that gives it the 8. AFA stocks, actual pistol=
s
don't use them. Some pistol sized weapons do, but I believe the RS is a =
pistol.
I mean, it really wouldn't be practicle to put it on a weapon like that, =
especially if
it is carried in a holster. How quickly could you pull that in an emergen=
cy situation?

Lucifer
Prince of Darkness, Eater of Souls

"One owes respect to the living. To the Dead one owes
only Truth."--Voltaire

"When devils will the blackest sins put on, they
do suggest at first with heavenly shows."--Shakespeare,
from 'Othello'
Message no. 30
From: lucifer <lucifer@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:33:45 -0600
Tim Cooper wrote:

<snip>
> OK, sure.. but my main gripe was the mention of a stock... it's a pisto=
l
> sized weapon forcryinoutloud (or it's at least really small, given that
> Conc. of 8), and (now all you gun-people out there correct me if I'm
> wrong) but last time I checked you had to brace stocks against somethin=
g
> for them to be of any use.
>
<snip>

Well, you are correct about that. And you can't really throw a gas vent =
on there
either (strictly speaking) so the only real recoil comp you get is streng=
th mods
(FoF). Any disagreements?

Lucifer
Prince of Darkness, Eater of Souls

"One owes respect to the living. To the Dead one owes
only Truth."--Voltaire

"When devils will the blackest sins put on, they
do suggest at first with heavenly shows."--Shakespeare,
from 'Othello'
Message no. 31
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:13:13 GMT
On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:52:52 EST, Shadowrun Discussion
<SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET> wrote:

>OK, sure.. but my main gripe was the mention of a stock... it's a pistol
>sized weapon forcryinoutloud (or it's at least really small, given that
>Conc. of 8), and (now all you gun-people out there correct me if I'm
>wrong) but last time I checked you had to brace stocks against something
>for them to be of any use.

Stocks have found their way onto pistols for over 100 years. Some use
them for better accuracy, and the stock is often bigger than the
pistol itself. Likewise, many of the "true" machine pistols in
history used removable stocks to control the recoil when firing
bursts. And they work just fine :)

Some examples: M93 Borchardt* (1893), Mauser M1896* (1896), Mauser
M32/M712 (1932), Chinese Type 80 (1933), H&K VP-70 (1972), Stechkin
9mm (1951), and the Beretta M93R (1980).

* not capable of burst- and/or auto-fire



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 32
From: QuickSilver <QKSilver282@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:37:34 -0500
Actually, if I'm not mistaken the weapon carried by Saly Tsung on the
front cover of the Second Edition Rulebook is a remington RoomSweeper.
Pretty big, if you ask me for a concealability 8 weapon.
Message no. 33
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:42:48 GMT
On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:33:45 -0600, lucifer wrote:

>Tim Cooper wrote:
>
><snip>
>> OK, sure.. but my main gripe was the mention of a stock... it's a =
pistol
>> sized weapon forcryinoutloud (or it's at least really small, given =
that
>> Conc. of 8), and (now all you gun-people out there correct me if I'm
>> wrong) but last time I checked you had to brace stocks against =
something
>> for them to be of any use.
>>
><snip>
>
>Well, you are correct about that. And you can't really throw a gas vent =
on there
>either (strictly speaking) so the only real recoil comp you get is =
strength mods
>(FoF). Any disagreements?

Pistols have been available with "gas venting" for decades. Not these
huge gawd-awful monstrosities that are half as big as the pistol (like
FASA/Shadowrun would like you to believe), but simple barrel porting
to reduce muzzle climb. Target pistols have them in certain classes,
as does the Glock 18. As for stocks, see my previous post.



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 34
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:42:50 GMT
On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:02:20 -0600, lucifer wrote:

>losthalo wrote:
>>
>> Actually, everyone I know has taken that 8 as a silly mistake. It's =
not a
>> hold-out pistol. As for the stock, well, several pistols have been
>> equipped with stocks, usually as a detachable brace for better =
accuracy.
>>
>Well AFA the conceal, keep in mind that if it is a mistake it has NEVER =
been
>corrected in any reprint of the roomsweeper stats. It could just be the
>particular shape of the RS that gives it the 8.

I doubt it. I don't have access to the SR1 or SR2 BBBs at the moment,
but did they ever fix the error regarding the price of an assault
cannon, or finalize on the price of the Defiance T-250 (the write-up
says one thing while the summary list states another)? Or why the
drain codes for certain spells don't seem to fit?



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 35
From: lucifer <lucifer@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:06:44 -0600
James Lindsay wrote:


> On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:33:45 -0600, lucifer wrote:
<snip>
> >Well, you are correct about that. And you can't really throw a gas ven=
t on
> there
> >either (strictly speaking) so the only real recoil comp you get is str=
ength
> mods
> >(FoF). Any disagreements?
>
> Pistols have been available with "gas venting" for decades. Not these
> huge gawd-awful monstrosities that are half as big as the pistol (like
> FASA/Shadowrun would like you to believe), but simple barrel porting
> to reduce muzzle climb. Target pistols have them in certain classes,
> as does the Glock 18. As for stocks, see my previous post.
>

Understood, but can you explain to me how you are going
to fit that on a weapon that fires flachettes without tearing
up any barrel mods? According to everything myself and my
group understood the RS was a small shotgun type weapon.
You really can't add gas venting to a weapon of that type.

Lucifer
Prince of Darkness, Eater of Souls

"One owes respect to the living. To the Dead one owes
only Truth."--Voltaire

"When devils will the blackest sins put on, they
do suggest at first with heavenly shows."--Shakespeare,
from 'Othello'
Message no. 36
From: lucifer <lucifer@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:12:16 -0600
James Lindsay wrote:

> On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:02:20 -0600, lucifer wrote:
<snip>
> >Well AFA the conceal, keep in mind that if it is a mistake it has NEVE=
R been
> >corrected in any reprint of the roomsweeper stats. It could just be =
the
> >particular shape of the RS that gives it the 8.
>
> I doubt it. I don't have access to the SR1 or SR2 BBBs at the moment,
> but did they ever fix the error regarding the price of an assault
> cannon, or finalize on the price of the Defiance T-250 (the write-up
> says one thing while the summary list states another)? Or why the
> drain codes for certain spells don't seem to fit?
>
Okay, keep in mind I never said it WASN'T a mistake, I just said it
might NOT BE. Even with the other things you point out, there are
contradictory listings, not so with the conceal on the RS. Just a
thought.......

Lucifer
Prince of Darkness, Eater of Souls

"One owes respect to the living. To the Dead one owes
only Truth."--Voltaire

"When devils will the blackest sins put on, they
do suggest at first with heavenly shows."--Shakespeare,
from 'Othello'
Message no. 37
From: Kari Adams <star@***.WVC.NET>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:39:19 GMT
<snip>
>> On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:33:45 -0600, lucifer wrote:
><snip>
>> >Well, you are correct about that. And you can't really throw a gas =
vent on
>> there
>> >either (strictly speaking) so the only real recoil comp you get is =
strength
>> mods
>> >(FoF). Any disagreements?
>>
>> Pistols have been available with "gas venting" for decades. Not these
>> huge gawd-awful monstrosities that are half as big as the pistol (like
>> FASA/Shadowrun would like you to believe), but simple barrel porting
>> to reduce muzzle climb. Target pistols have them in certain classes,
>> as does the Glock 18. As for stocks, see my previous post.
>>
>
>Understood, but can you explain to me how you are going
>to fit that on a weapon that fires flachettes without tearing
>up any barrel mods? According to everything myself and my
>group understood the RS was a small shotgun type weapon.
>You really can't add gas venting to a weapon of that type.

Just as it is difficult to add a silencer to said weapons.


>
>Lucifer
>Prince of Darkness, Eater of Souls

Your friendly celestial orb,

Star
Message no. 38
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 05:58:42 GMT
On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:06:44 -0600, lucifer wrote:

> James Lindsay wrote:
>
>
> > On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:33:45 -0600, lucifer wrote:
> <snip>
> > >Well, you are correct about that. And you can't really throw a gas vent on
> > there
> > >either (strictly speaking) so the only real recoil comp you get is strength
> > mods
> > >(FoF). Any disagreements?
> >
> > Pistols have been available with "gas venting" for decades. Not these
> > huge gawd-awful monstrosities that are half as big as the pistol (like
> > FASA/Shadowrun would like you to believe), but simple barrel porting
> > to reduce muzzle climb. Target pistols have them in certain classes,
> > as does the Glock 18. As for stocks, see my previous post.
> >
>
> Understood, but can you explain to me how you are going
> to fit that on a weapon that fires flachettes without tearing
> up any barrel mods? According to everything myself and my
> group understood the RS was a small shotgun type weapon.
> You really can't add gas venting to a weapon of that type.

Easy. The flechettes are housed in a plastic or teflon sabot that
falls away after leaving the barrel. And as long as the Room Sweeper
is as large (or larger) than a conventional 1990's pistol, you can
still "apply" the modern equivalent of gas venting. And if you look
at the magazine capacity and the damage code of the weapon, I would be
inclined to think that the Concealibility factor should be closer to 4
or 5.



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 39
From: lucifer <lucifer@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:21:39 -0600
James Lindsay wrote:

<snip>
> Easy. The flechettes are housed in a plastic or teflon sabot that
> falls away after leaving the barrel. And as long as the Room Sweeper
> is as large (or larger) than a conventional 1990's pistol, you can
> still "apply" the modern equivalent of gas venting. And if you look
> at the magazine capacity and the damage code of the weapon, I would be
> inclined to think that the Concealibility factor should be closer to =
4
> or 5.


Again, AFA concealability, I didn't say it wasn't a mistake. I just said =
it might
not be. AFA the barrel mods: everything I've seen about RS type weapons
(yes, we do have similiar weapons these days) shows that they don't work =
that way.
The idea of the RS is a wide spread-pattern (hence the name). With what =
you suggest
the flachettes would be grouped tighter than is feasible for the purpose =
by the time the
sabot dropped. That concept would work fine on an Ares Slivergun however =
since it is
a tighter grouped flachette weapon. The RS has a nastier job.
I realize this is all speculatory, and I thank you Mr. Lindsay for humori=
ng my more
twisted nature on this. ;->
It's just that I and my group don't see the sabot option as practicle and=
actually defeating the
purpose of the RS.

Lucifer
Prince of Darkness, Eater of Souls

"One owes respect to the living. To the Dead one owes
only Truth."--Voltaire

"When devils will the blackest sins put on, they
do suggest at first with heavenly shows."--Shakespeare,
from 'Othello'
Message no. 40
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 15:18:34 GMT
On Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:21:39 -0600, lucifer wrote:

> James Lindsay wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > Easy. The flechettes are housed in a plastic or teflon sabot that
> > falls away after leaving the barrel. And as long as the Room Sweeper
> > is as large (or larger) than a conventional 1990's pistol, you can
> > still "apply" the modern equivalent of gas venting. And if you look
> > at the magazine capacity and the damage code of the weapon, I would be
> > inclined to think that the Concealibility factor should be closer to 4
> > or 5.
>
> Again, AFA concealability, I didn't say it wasn't a mistake. I just said it might
> not be.

I am fully aware of what you are saying about the BBB concealment
figure for the Room Sweeper. I'm just saying that if you look at all
the figures (magazine capacity, firepower, etc.), I am biased to think
that the concealibility figure is simply an error. I am not trying to
tell you how to run your game :) Besides, since Shadowrun seems to be
based heavily on play-balanced rules, the Remington Room Sweeper does
come off looking a bit, er, "munchkin". Just MHO.

Just for fun, what is the concealibility of 10 rounds of ammunition
again (the approximate ammo capacity of the RS), and how does that
compare to the actual weapon?

> AFA the barrel mods: everything I've seen about RS type weapons
> (yes, we do have similiar weapons these days) shows that they don't work that way.

What do you mean by "they don't work that way"? If you mean that Room
Sweepers probably don't use actual flechettes, I agree, but *you*
brought up topic of flechettes (I just played along). As I stated in
a previous post, I imagine the Room Sweeper to be using a smaller
cartridge size than traditional shotgun shells (while still firing
actual lead or steel "shot")-- if they *do* use the same ammo, the
Room Sweeper's stats appear a bit unfair when compared to a nearly
identical weapon-- the "sawed-off" version of the Defiance T-250 (note
the firepower and magazine capacity, and then compare the concealment
ratings).

> The idea of the RS is a wide spread-pattern (hence the name).

I wouldn't put too much faith in the idea of using a weapon's name as
a "weapon statistic". Otherwise, "Manhunters" would be shooting 49%
of their owners (being the closest applicable target) and PACs would
be firing-- well-- Panthers :)

> With what you suggest
> the flachettes would be grouped tighter than is feasible for the purpose by the time
the
> sabot dropped. That concept would work fine on an Ares Slivergun however since it is
> a tighter grouped flachette weapon. The RS has a nastier job.

The sabot is only used to apply the kinetic energy of the exploding
propellent equally to all of the flechettes. It is not there to
ensure that the flechettes stay grouped together in a tight cluster.
Sabots drop away pretty quickly due to their tendency to expand as
soon as they exit the barrel. By expanding, they increase their
cross-sectional surface area (kinda like a parachute). This causes
them to slow down rapidly, leaving their "contents" to continue on
towards the target.

> I realize this is all speculatory, and I thank you Mr. Lindsay for humoring my more
> twisted nature on this. ;->

You're welcome :)

> It's just that I and my group don't see the sabot option as practicle and actually
defeating the
> purpose of the RS.

FWIW, *no* shotgun behaves in real life the way most RPGs depict them
(ie: with wide arcs of fire which treat the weapons more as claymore
anti-personnel mines than guns). A true, Real Life(tm) shotgun blast
on full choke at 50 metres has approximately a 50% chance of placing
each pellet inside an 80cm circle. Spreading out the shot pattern any
more and you can fit entire *humans* between each pellet :)



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 41
From: lucifer <lucifer@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:10:08 -0600
James Lindsay wrote:
<snip>
> I am fully aware of what you are saying about the BBB concealment
> figure for the Room Sweeper. I'm just saying that if you look at all
> the figures (magazine capacity, firepower, etc.), I am biased to think
> that the concealibility figure is simply an error. I am not trying to
> tell you how to run your game :) Besides, since Shadowrun seems to be
> based heavily on play-balanced rules, the Remington Room Sweeper does
> come off looking a bit, er, "munchkin". Just MHO.
>
> Just for fun, what is the concealibility of 10 rounds of ammunition
> again (the approximate ammo capacity of the RS), and how does that
> compare to the actual weapon?
>

Hmmmmm.......... certainly something to consider;->

<snip>
> What do you mean by "they don't work that way"? If you mean that Room
> Sweepers probably don't use actual flechettes, I agree, but *you*
> brought up topic of flechettes (I just played along). As I stated in
> a previous post, I imagine the Room Sweeper to be using a smaller
> cartridge size than traditional shotgun shells (while still firing
> actual lead or steel "shot")-- if they *do* use the same ammo, the
> Room Sweeper's stats appear a bit unfair when compared to a nearly
> identical weapon-- the "sawed-off" version of the Defiance T-250 (note
> the firepower and magazine capacity, and then compare the concealment
> ratings).

Actually I know they don't use ACTUAL flachette, they would use shot ammo=
,
which in SR would translate to flachette.

<snip>
> I wouldn't put too much faith in the idea of using a weapon's name as
> a "weapon statistic". Otherwise, "Manhunters" would be shooting
49%
> of their owners (being the closest applicable target) and PACs would
> be firing-- well-- Panthers :)

I realize what you are saying (smart-ass ;->), however that isn't EXACTLY=
what
I meant. What I meant was that type of weapon was meant for peppering an =
entire
area (a room maybe?) with shot. And it should be able to do it at a relat=
ively close range...

<snip>
> The sabot is only used to apply the kinetic energy of the exploding
> propellent equally to all of the flechettes. It is not there to
> ensure that the flechettes stay grouped together in a tight cluster.
> Sabots drop away pretty quickly due to their tendency to expand as
> soon as they exit the barrel. By expanding, they increase their
> cross-sectional surface area (kinda like a parachute). This causes
> them to slow down rapidly, leaving their "contents" to continue on

> towards the target.

However I'm not sure the same physics would apply to shot. I guess I'm =
still
looking for the good old traditional shells. ;-)

<snip>
> FWIW, *no* shotgun behaves in real life the way most RPGs depict them
> (ie: with wide arcs of fire which treat the weapons more as claymore
> anti-personnel mines than guns). A true, Real Life(tm) shotgun blast
> on full choke at 50 metres has approximately a 50% chance of placing
> each pellet inside an 80cm circle. Spreading out the shot pattern any
> more and you can fit entire *humans* between each pellet :)
>
Oh believe me, I'm aware of that (I'm no stranger to guns). However put =
the same
gun at half-choke, enter a 20x20 ft room, and fire. You're probably gonna=
get the
whole room. :->

Lucifer
Prince of Darkness, Eater of Souls

"One owes respect to the living. To the Dead one owes
only Truth."--Voltaire

"When devils will the blackest sins put on, they
do suggest at first with heavenly shows."--Shakespeare,

from 'Othello'
Message no. 42
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:17:17 -0500
At 08-Nov-97 wrote James Lindsay:


> PACs would be firing-- well-- Panthers :)

HaHaHa

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Evil Overlord advice #50:

My main computers will have their own special operating system
that will be completely incompatible with standard IBM and
Macintosh powerbooks.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 43
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:03:00 GMT
on 04.11.97 trrkt@*****.ONET.PL wrote:

t> > Well, everybody loves the Savalette, but it's milSpec in our game...
t> I think I can guess why. <grin>

I'm really happy the folks haven't yet figured out that the Ruger
Thunderbolt is even nastier....oh well, they'd have to kill a cop to get
it. The last one who killed a cop didn't survive the session....:)

t> > The Predator 2, though, was never really excepted by any of us.
t> > O.K., if you just refitted your old Predator with a smartlink, you
t> > pay a bit more, but the No.1 simply looks better and has one
t> > additional point of concealment...
t>
t> Well, I always prefered Manhunter. Mainly for the additional ammo
t> capacity. (Besides, when I play mages or adepts...)

That actually never mattered in our games. I have never emptyed a clip in
SR (except one time, when my char went beserk and put 48 shots from a HP
into our mage...), but concealment is more than vital.

t> > Narcoject and Tasers seems to be the weapons of choice in my group
t> > ATM. Someone figured out that the elven Sammy's gonna die (in a
t> > really nasty way) for killing three Spikes. Now they all buy *loads*
t> > of gelammo and narcos....I wonder why....<egmg>
t>
t> Yeah, but narcoject rounds are not cheap. It's more cost-effective to
t> kill somebody. <grin>

Well, I guess they figured it's a whole lot better to pay more for your
ammo than to have to deal with 354245 people who want to kill you because
you shot whoever...




Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 44
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:37:05 EST
> I'm really happy the folks haven't yet figured out that the Ruger
> Thunderbolt is even nastier....oh well, they'd have to kill a cop to
> get it. The last one who killed a cop didn't survive the
> session....:)

ACtually, if you read the little description blip, it says that its
being sold to Lone Star alone until 205x (I forget the exact year)
when it will become available to the public market. I'm pretty sure
205x < 2058.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 45
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:02:27 +1100
> I'm really happy the folks haven't yet figured out that the Ruger
> Thunderbolt is even nastier....oh well, they'd have to kill a cop to get
> it. The last one who killed a cop didn't survive the session....:)

Unless the game is set back in 2055, they shouldn't have to kill a cop.
AFAIK the Ruger contract was Lone-Star exclusive for a year only. After
that they're going to be available to the public...


Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
"All right! Bovine intervention!!!" -- The Tick
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 46
From: John Penta <johndevil@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:31:53 -0500
On Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:02:27 +1100 Lady Jestyr
<jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU> writes:
>> I'm really happy the folks haven't yet figured out that the Ruger
>> Thunderbolt is even nastier....oh well, they'd have to kill a cop to
>get
>> it. The last one who killed a cop didn't survive the session....:)
>
>Unless the game is set back in 2055, they shouldn't have to kill a
>cop.
>AFAIK the Ruger contract was Lone-Star exclusive for a year only.
>After
>that they're going to be available to the public...
Which brings up a new topic:What year do ya think I should start a group
that is TOTALLY NEW to Shadowrun in? I plan on having a bit of political
intrigue, especially from the Middle East(FASA never bothered to flesh it
out any, so...fertile ground for some intrigue..especially in Israel,
Syria, that whole area.), with Asia and europe close behind....my group's
decker character isn't totally done, and our mage hasn't even started
yet.(not in same classes as anybody in my group, so...getting them to do
anything is iffy...plus the fact that the vagaries of 8th grade politics
really prevent our associating with each other in school unless they want
hell from the Machiavellis in my school...)

Da Monkey King
Message no. 47
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:20:34 EST
> Which brings up a new topic:What year do ya think I should start a
> group that is TOTALLY NEW to Shadowrun in? I plan on having a bit of
> political intrigue, especially from the Middle East(FASA never
> bothered to flesh it out any, so...fertile ground for some
> intrigue..especially in Israel, Syria, that whole area.), with Asia

Well, I'd start them back at 2053, just so that the world doesn't
tknow about the bugs yet, or anything involving pervious modules
and/or sourcebooks. You can spring the UB, Chicago, the election,
the new cyberzombies, better equiped mercs, anything and everything
on them. You can be set for YEARS.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 48
From: Danyel Woods <9604801@********.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:07:27 +1300
The debate on what pistol is the most powerful seems to have overlooked
my personal favourite: the Ares Viper.

I know, I know, it's a flechette pistol. But who says it only has to
use flechette ammo? It should be able to fire regular ammo, too. With
burst capability, a damage code of 9M before flechette modification, and
a thirty-round clip, it's got most other pistols beaten hollow,
including the Guardian (Viper: one burst per Simple Action; Guardian:
one burst per Complex Action).

My character (a Los Angeles cop - civil servant, not Lone Star) uses
such a weapon as a back-up, and he's had all sorts of nasty optional
extras installed. They include a laser sight, full-auto capability, the
silencer was deleted in favour of Imp Gas-Vent II, and it fires caseless
ammo (normally APDS-F) over a floating breech. {For these last
references, see Paranoid Animals of North America; Gurth, you and the
Plastic Warriors are gods!} Have I, as a player, used this horrific
item? Yes (though I prefer a sonic stunner - I want to take prisoners,
remember?). Is this a munchkin weapon? Yes. Is it a cool weapon?
YES!! Is it legal? Well, I think that it would be classed as a 4-G
weapon (if all the modifications were spotted, and yes, it is
technically a hand-sized SMG). {If no-one knew the difference, it would
stay a 6P-E.} However, my character works in Los Angeles' El Infierno
district, which (by all accounts - I don't actually have the Cal-Free
sourcebook) makes the Barrens look like Beverly Hills, so his superiors
overlook it.

Incidentally, does anyone have a copy of the California Free State
source-book that they don't want anymore?
Replies or questions to:
MR DANYEL WOODS
9604801@********.ac.nz
(And do bear in mind that I am in New Zealand, on the International
Date-Line.)
Message no. 49
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:58:49 PST
>The debate on what pistol is the most powerful seems to have overlooked
>my personal favourite: the Ares Viper.
>
>I know, I know, it's a flechette pistol. But who says it only has to
>use flechette ammo?

UM, besides its description in the text section? Itdoesn't say it can't
fire otherammo, butit never says it can. Also, its "technically a light
pistol"- meaning it is fired using the light pistol skill, and woulduse
light pistol ammo. That makes it a fancy machine pistol, basically.
Firing regular ammo (if possible) damage= 6L before burst.

> It should be able to fire regular ammo, too. With
>burst capability, a damage code of 9M before flechette modification,
and a thirty-round clip, it's got most other pistols beaten hollow,
>including the Guardian (Viper: one burst per Simple Action; Guardian:
>one burst per Complex Action).
>
>My character (a Los Angeles cop - civil servant, not Lone Star) uses
>such a weapon as a back-up, and he's had all sorts of nasty optional
>extras installed. They include a laser sight, full-auto capability,
the silencer was deleted in favour of Imp Gas-Vent II, and it fires
caseless ammo (normally APDS-F) over a floating breech.

Backup?!? Whats your primary?!?

What you want is the Ruger thunderbolt from the Lonestar sourcebook.
True Burstfire only, extremely high rate of fire means no recoil on
first burst, +4 on second. Loud as all hell. CAN accept barrel mounts.
Basically, its the gun you think your slivergun is, and standard cop
issue in someplaces.

> Is this a munchkin weapon? Yes.

Very. Considering the fact you made it a class of gun it is not, took
off mods it has, and gave it ones it might not accept, plus one not in
the books.

(why didn't they say what mods a gun can take before FOF? Istherean
errata or net list around? Stock features matter!)

>Is it a cool weapon? YES!!

NAW, netguns with external smartlinks and UBGrLs are "cool"- can you
imagine a Fatter gun with a bigger muzzle profile? Plus its a freaking
BREACH LOADER, and will take down a man in any armor, with zero risk of
colatoral damage. Had a chance to go berzeker into a nightclub with
one, and nobody even pulled a gun on me, cause I was so F**KING
intimidating, but I never actually hurt anyone. I suggest wearing a
shockglove, to make sure the target STAYS down.

Thunderhawks and thier ilk are just effecient killing machines. With
the Thunderhawk's conceal of 4, why not just give the cops sawed off
Franchi-Spaz 22's without stocks? Thats my fave "pistol". That or a
dartgun.

> Is it legal? <snip>

Well and good, but APDS is 3L, as in straight to the bighouse. But I'm
sure as a legitimate, registered law enforcement agent you have a
special permit- makes the whole pointmoot, unless some punk ambushes
you, corns ya with a sock full of quarters, and takes the thing. Thats
how I got mine. With a GV2, the recoil is well below my abilty to
handle, and the concealbilty in a holster isn't to bad. Great for
hunting. Lousy for meets; the gun check girl looks at you funny.

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 50
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:54:35 +0100
Brett Borger said on 15:37/11 Nov 97...

> ACtually, if you read the little description blip, it says that its
> being sold to Lone Star alone until 205x (I forget the exact year)
> when it will become available to the public market. I'm pretty sure
> 205x < 2058.

From mid-2055 the Thunderbolt is (was? has been?) available to the general
public; however, since it's a burst-capable weapon it counts as class G in
my game, and so permits are only available for security and law
enforcement companies, not normal citizens.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
So what if we're making a scene now?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 51
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 23:56:56 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-11 17:45:46 EST, johndevil@****.com writes:

> Which brings up a new topic:What year do ya think I should start a group
> that is TOTALLY NEW to Shadowrun in? I plan on having a bit of political
> intrigue, especially from the Middle East(FASA never bothered to flesh it
> out any, so...fertile ground for some intrigue..especially in Israel,
> Syria, that whole area.), with Asia and europe close behind....my group's
> decker character isn't totally done, and our mage hasn't even started
> yet.(not in same classes as anybody in my group, so...getting them to do
> anything is iffy...plus the fact that the vagaries of 8th grade politics
> really prevent our associating with each other in school unless they want
> hell from the Machiavellis in my school...)
>
Oh My God...(OMG, another cut-up), I am really starting to feel old now. I
think I lost something in this paragraph "Mr. Monkey King", so please pardon
my confusion. "Vagaries of 8th Grade Politics?" Okay, what's the age range
and game experience of your group?" And where are you playing? (state/nation
wise anyway)

-K
Message no. 52
From: John Penta <johndevil@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:46:08 -0500
On Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:54:35 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>John Penta said on 17:31/11 Nov 97...
>
>> Which brings up a new topic:What year do ya think I should start a
>group
>> that is TOTALLY NEW to Shadowrun in?
>
>Just start them off in 2058 and let them do typical shadowruns at
>first,
>so they can get the hang of the game and the background. From there
>they
>can gradually get into the big leagues and get involved in the stuff
>that
>has a greater impact on the world as a whole.
Erm...mighty unbalancing. I already TENTATIVELY said we're starting in
2053....however, MIGHT consider starting earlier..any later, and waaay
too many sourcebooks are brought into play. while none of them are
munchkins(I try my best to kill the temptation...the Street Sammy's my
AD&D DM, so...he has a vested interest in not going too nuts. I can
EASILY do the same to him.Decker's harmless...mage hasn't even started
creating a character yet.*sends evil letter with a
rather...interesting...reminder...*), I don't want too much cyber/bio and
magic popping up yet. also trying NOT to have the stuff like Bug
City/election pop too quickly.


John Penta
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There's nothing that can't be solved with words and a virus."-me, when
going insane.
"Your job isn't to die for your country; it's to make some other poor
dumb bastard die for his."-Gen. George S. Patton
Message no. 53
From: John Penta <johndevil@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:23:01 -0500
On Wed, 12 Nov 1997 23:56:56 -0500 "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
writes:
>In a message dated 97-11-11 17:45:46 EST, johndevil@****.com writes:
>
>> Which brings up a new topic:What year do ya think I should start a
>group
>> that is TOTALLY NEW to Shadowrun in? I plan on having a bit of
>political
>> intrigue, especially from the Middle East(FASA never bothered to
>flesh it
>> out any, so...fertile ground for some intrigue..especially in
>Israel,
>> Syria, that whole area.), with Asia and europe close behind....my
>group's
>> decker character isn't totally done, and our mage hasn't even
>started
>> yet.(not in same classes as anybody in my group, so...getting them
>to do
>> anything is iffy...plus the fact that the vagaries of 8th grade
>politics
>> really prevent our associating with each other in school unless
>they want
>> hell from the Machiavellis in my school...)
>>
>Oh My God...(OMG, another cut-up), I am really starting to feel old
>now. I
>think I lost something in this paragraph "Mr. Monkey King", so please
>pardon
>my confusion. "Vagaries of 8th Grade Politics?" Okay, what's the age
>range
>and game experience of your group?" And where are you playing?
>(state/nation
>wise anyway)
ROFL! GOOD! Feel OLD! Age range:13-14(soon to be all 14 as of next July)
Vagaries of 8th Grade politics:"computer nerds" like me aren't exactly
popular, and guilt by association is something learned early...you'd
haveta be there to understand.:( State/Nation:NJ, USA Game
experience:Street Sam's an AD&D GM, Decker and mage are AD&D players, me
AD&D player...nobody 'cept me has ANY experience with SR.


Monkey King(don't ask where that came from. you REALLY don't want to
know.
Message no. 54
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:35:31 +0100
John Penta said on 16:46/12 Nov 97...

> Erm...mighty unbalancing. I already TENTATIVELY said we're starting in
> 2053....however, MIGHT consider starting earlier..any later, and waaay
> too many sourcebooks are brought into play.

In that case, I'd say go for 2053. One good thing about doing that is that
you'll know exactly what major events are going to take place (Bug City,
the 2056 elections, and so on) and don't have to backpedal to add
unfolding events into your campaign.

Another alternative, which I had been thinking about once (and from a
recent post, I wasn't the only one with this idea) is to start them in
2050 and run all the adventures in order. That only works if you have
most or all of the adventures FASA has published since 1989, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
So what if we're making a scene now?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 55
From: John Penta <johndevil@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 18:28:42 -0500
On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:35:31 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>John Penta said on 16:46/12 Nov 97...
>
>> Erm...mighty unbalancing. I already TENTATIVELY said we're starting
>in
>> 2053....however, MIGHT consider starting earlier..any later, and
>waaay
>> too many sourcebooks are brought into play.
>
>In that case, I'd say go for 2053. One good thing about doing that is
>that
>you'll know exactly what major events are going to take place (Bug
>City,
>the 2056 elections, and so on) and don't have to backpedal to add
>unfolding events into your campaign.
>
>Another alternative, which I had been thinking about once (and from a
>recent post, I wasn't the only one with this idea) is to start them in
>2050 and run all the adventures in order. That only works if you have
>most or all of the adventures FASA has published since 1989, though.
Unfortunately, no. no published adventures. I never am able to find em.
Message no. 56
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:01:00 GMT
on 12.11.97 jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU wrote:
j> > I'm really happy the folks haven't yet figured out that the Ruger
j> > Thunderbolt is even nastier....oh well, they'd have to kill a cop to get
j> > it. The last one who killed a cop didn't survive the session....:)
j>
j> Unless the game is set back in 2055, they shouldn't have to kill a cop.
j> AFAIK the Ruger contract was Lone-Star exclusive for a year only. After
j> that they're going to be available to the public...

"Not in my game! No you won't!"

I'm not going to make that kind of gun available on the streets. NO WAY!
Then I could even create a SA/BF/FA-pistol and make it available. Nah.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 57
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 01:13:41 +0000
In article <6hiO2Y2RX3B@****.komet.teuto.de>, Tobias Berghoff
<Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE> waffled & burbled about Favorite Pistol.
>on 12.11.97 jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU wrote:
>j> > I'm really happy the folks haven't yet figured out that the Ruger
>j> > Thunderbolt is even nastier....oh well, they'd have to kill a cop to get
>j> > it. The last one who killed a cop didn't survive the session....:)
>j>
>j> Unless the game is set back in 2055, they shouldn't have to kill a cop.
>j> AFAIK the Ruger contract was Lone-Star exclusive for a year only. After
>j> that they're going to be available to the public...
>
>"Not in my game! No you won't!"

Agreed 100 percent. There is no way I would allow my players access to
this particular beastie. As far as my game world is concerned, the
Thunderbolt is a mil-spec weapon, designed for the military gun nuts and
police forces. It has the same problem as a Lawgiver. Steal it from a
dead officer, and you'll get yourself killed much quicker when the bio-
detection fails and the weapon explodes.

There have to be a few things that are left the players can't get, that
offers sufficient threat to make them feel unhappy.

One or two _may_ (unlikely) have been redesigned by a smartarse techie,
but they'll be rare as hell, and damned expensive.

I can see that the corporations would maintain this situation if only to
make sure that their and the law enforcement agencies have at least one
edge.

Same thing with the Savalette, it's a military weapon, god help you if
you're caught with one, or using one.

--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims - Alternative UK Sourcebook (U/C)
Message no. 58
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 14:33:00 GMT
on 16.11.97 Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK wrote:


[Rugder Thunderbolt or PCs]
A> >"Not in my game! No you won't!"
A>
A> Agreed 100 percent. There is no way I would allow my players access to
A> this particular beastie. As far as my game world is concerned, the
A> Thunderbolt is a mil-spec weapon, designed for the military gun nuts and
A> police forces. It has the same problem as a Lawgiver. Steal it from a
A> dead officer, and you'll get yourself killed much quicker when the bio-
A> detection fails and the weapon explodes.

Another thing is the PAC-factor: If *someone* figures out you've got one
of these, they'll try *anything* to get it.

A> One or two _may_ (unlikely) have been redesigned by a smartarse techie,
A> but they'll be rare as hell, and damned expensive.

And blow up every second clip :)

A> Same thing with the Savalette, it's a military weapon, god help you if
A> you're caught with one, or using one.

Well, if you're lucky, you'll be visited by a SWAT-Team. If you're not,
it's Knight Errant time.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 59
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:30:03 +0000
On 16 Nov 97, Tobias Berghoff disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
by writing:

> [Rugder Thunderbolt or PCs]
<snip>
> Another thing is the PAC-factor: If *someone* figures out you've got
> one of these, they'll try *anything* to get it.

Well, are they really SO killer? I mean, get a good SMG, or a Viper
Slivergun. In most cases, you're better off. (OK, so Viper is useless
against heavily armoured targets.. Sue me. ;P )

<snip>
> A> Same thing with the Savalette, it's a military weapon, god help
> you if A> you're caught with one, or using one.
>
> Well, if you're lucky, you'll be visited by a SWAT-Team. If you're
> not, it's Knight Errant time.

Then what about a player who has a <shudder> M-16 Assault Rifle? I
mean, it's an ASSAULT RIFLE, for gods sake! It's much more milspec
than this stupid pistol! <grin>

Not to mention the Wired 3. Anybody discovered with Wired 3 should
await his termination by combined Ares/Renraku/Atzlan/UCAS strike
force. Shouldn't they? I mean, it's ultra-super-military wiz
gadgetware...


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
Amnesia rules - O
Message no. 60
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:39:25 +0000
In article <199711161957.UAA20871@*****.onet.pl>, "Leszek Karlik, aka
Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL> writes
>Well, are they really SO killer? I mean, get a good SMG, or a Viper
>Slivergun. In most cases, you're better off. (OK, so Viper is useless
>against heavily armoured targets.. Sue me. ;P )

Yeah, but a SMG firing bursts does 9S or 10S. A Savalette or Thunderbolt
does 12S, with better concealment than most SMGs.

>Then what about a player who has a <shudder> M-16 Assault Rifle? I
>mean, it's an ASSAULT RIFLE, for gods sake! It's much more milspec
>than this stupid pistol! <grin>

Damn right! I mean, what is the police response, today, if someone
wanders around firing a M-16 or some variant thereof at anyone who gets
in their way? The response is likely to be to kill the gunman first and
question his motivation later.

It works for samurai, it works for mages. Even today, if I walk into a
bank wearing a full-face motorcycle helmet, alarms sound. Imagine the
reaction to full-spec military armour...

>Not to mention the Wired 3. Anybody discovered with Wired 3 should
>await his termination by combined Ares/Renraku/Atzlan/UCAS strike
>force. Shouldn't they? I mean, it's ultra-super-military wiz
>gadgetware...

Damn right they would. It's seriously bad juju and if you get spotted
using it, you _will_ need a change of face and a new ID.

Point remains, Mr Wired 3 needs a gun to kill a busful of
schoolchildren. Mr Magician can do it by snapping his fingers. Who's a
bigger threat?

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 61
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:25:48 +0000
On 16 Nov 97, Paul J. Adam disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

> In article <199711161957.UAA20871@*****.onet.pl>, "Leszek Karlik,
> aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL> writes
> >Well, are they really SO killer? I mean, get a good SMG, or a Viper
> >Slivergun. In most cases, you're better off. (OK, so Viper is useless
> >against heavily armoured targets.. Sue me. ;P )
>
> Yeah, but a SMG firing bursts does 9S or 10S. A Savalette or
> Thunderbolt does 12S, with better concealment than most SMGs.

Yep. But then, it's a Complex Action, so an SMG firing bursts gets 2
9S or 10S shots for onr 12S, and it can fire FA for 16-17D, not to
mention the possibility of supressing fire...
And the ranges are better off.

I mean, I know Savalette and Thunderbolt are munchkinny weapons, but
are there in-game reasons (that is, not related to the fact that they
do 12S instead of 9S with longer ranges) for them being so
ridicolously mil-spec in comparison with SMGs?

> >Then what about a player who has a <shudder> M-16 Assault Rifle? I
> >mean, it's an ASSAULT RIFLE, for gods sake! It's much more milspec
> >than this stupid pistol! <grin>
>
> Damn right! I mean, what is the police response, today, if someone
> wanders around firing a M-16 or some variant thereof at anyone who
> gets in their way? The response is likely to be to kill the gunman
> first and question his motivation later.

Yep.

<the part was cut out and transferred to the "Magic in Society"
thread, where it rightfully belongs ;P >


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
(dirty look) Im sorry, Im not allowed to argue any more
Message no. 62
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 18:54:00 GMT
on 16.11.97 trrkt@*****.ONET.PL wrote:

t> > [Rugder Thunderbolt or PCs]
t> <snip>
t> > Another thing is the PAC-factor: If *someone* figures out you've got
t> > one of these, they'll try *anything* to get it.
t>
t> Well, are they really SO killer? I mean, get a good SMG, or a Viper
t> Slivergun. In most cases, you're better off. (OK, so Viper is useless
t> against heavily armoured targets.. Sue me. ;P )

Huh? You usually fire an SMG in burst. That's 9S or 10S.
A Slivergun does 12D(f) which goes down to 12S against any armor
(including synth-leathers) and is resisted against with double ballistic
(6 points for armor jacket)
The Ruger OTOH does 12S nomatter what.
So the Thunderbolt is the most deadly of the three (Damn! Two bursts of
12S. I wished an AR could do that!)


t> <snip>
t> > A> Same thing with the Savalette, it's a military weapon, god help
t> > you if A> you're caught with one, or using one.
t> >
t> > Well, if you're lucky, you'll be visited by a SWAT-Team. If you're
t> > not, it's Knight Errant time.
t>
t> Then what about a player who has a <shudder> M-16 Assault Rifle? I
t> mean, it's an ASSAULT RIFLE, for gods sake! It's much more milspec
t> than this stupid pistol! <grin>

And if someone is stupid enough to ru around with an AR in my game, *two*
SWAT-teams come visiting. Satisfied?


t> Not to mention the Wired 3. Anybody discovered with Wired 3 should
t> await his termination by combined Ares/Renraku/Atzlan/UCAS strike
t> force. Shouldn't they? I mean, it's ultra-super-military wiz
t> gadgetware...

....and no PC if've ever met had one of these. Even wired 2 is rare in my
game, but that'a another matter. No Sammy with enough brains to eat
without help is going to spend 5 points of essence on his initiative. He
would be dead in no time.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 63
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:46:30 +0000
On 16 Nov 97, Tobias Berghoff disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
by writing:

> on 16.11.97 trrkt@*****.ONET.PL wrote:
>
> t> > [Rugder Thunderbolt or PCs]
> t> <snip>
> t> > Another thing is the PAC-factor: If *someone* figures out
> you've got t> > one of these, they'll try *anything* to get it. t>

> t> Well, are they really SO killer? I mean, get a good SMG, or a
> Viper t> Slivergun. In most cases, you're better off. (OK, so Viper
> is useless t> against heavily armoured targets.. Sue me. ;P )
>
> Huh? You usually fire an SMG in burst. That's 9S or 10S.
> A Slivergun does 12D(f) which goes down to 12S against any armor
> (including synth-leathers) and is resisted against with double
> ballistic (6 points for armor jacket) The Ruger OTOH does 12S
> nomatter what. So the Thunderbolt is the most deadly of the three
> (Damn! Two bursts of 12S. I wished an AR could do that!)

Yeah, but in case of SMG it's a simple action to fire burst, and on
FA, you can do 17D or 18D. Savalette uses Complex Action to fire a
burst, so it's not such a biggie.
I haven't seen Ruget, though. Does it use Simple action to fire?
Besides, there's always the issue of ranges (HP vs SMG) and SMG can
provide supressing fire (or, better yet, TWO SMGs...)

I can see the problem with Thunderbolt, though...

<snip>
>
> And if someone is stupid enough to ru around with an AR in my game,
> *two* SWAT-teams come visiting. Satisfied?

Yes. Well, actually, if he walks on the Lone Star territory, yes, but
if he invades some poor corp that has no Lone Star contract - well,
they don't pay, do they? <evil grin>

> t> Not to mention the Wired 3. Anybody discovered with Wired 3
> should t> await his termination by combined Ares/Renraku/Atzlan/UCAS
> strike t> force. Shouldn't they? I mean, it's ultra-super-military
> wiz t> gadgetware...
>
> ....and no PC if've ever met had one of these. Even wired 2 is rare
> in my game, but that'a another matter. No Sammy with enough brains
> to eat without help is going to spend 5 points of essence on his
> initiative. He would be dead in no time.

Well, ummm... Hey, you know what? You're right! Our sammies have
Wired 2, usually... It's only that I've been playing a mage for sooo
long... <grin>
Though Wired 3 and lotsa bioware would be a Nice Thing, especially
for that Troll sammie (a Body Index of HOW MUCH? <grin>). The only
problem is that a starting char can have at max 1M¥ on equipment, and
that won't cut it for Wired 3 and lotsa bio...
I can see that NPC from Hell, though. <shudder> I'm lucky my GM's not
on the list... <epg>


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bea=
r/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)=
/House Scholae Palatinae
Don't hit me, Mr. Moderator... I'll go back on topic... I swear!
Message no. 64
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:08:55 +0000
In article <199711170125.CAA14659@*****.onet.pl>, "Leszek Karlik, aka
Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL> writes
>On 16 Nov 97, Paul J. Adam disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
>writing:
>> Yeah, but a SMG firing bursts does 9S or 10S. A Savalette or
>> Thunderbolt does 12S, with better concealment than most SMGs.
>
>Yep. But then, it's a Complex Action, so an SMG firing bursts gets 2
>9S or 10S shots for onr 12S,

The Thunderbolt gets two 12S bursts.

>and it can fire FA for 16-17D,

At +10 recoil modifiers. (Okay, gas vent it down to a +6, still hurts).

>not to
>mention the possibility of supressing fire...

Which as the rules stand is pretty ineffective, though I agree we tweak
it.

And remember, many SMGs aren't full-auto capable.

>And the ranges are better off.

True.

>I mean, I know Savalette and Thunderbolt are munchkinny weapons, but
>are there in-game reasons (that is, not related to the fact that they
>do 12S instead of 9S with longer ranges) for them being so
>ridicolously mil-spec in comparison with SMGs?

They're pistols rather than SMGs: IRL that's a pretty serious size
difference (compare a MP-5 and a USP, for instance) and so the
concealability factor is very significant. (Sure, Shadowrun says an Ares
Predator and a HK227 have the same concealability, but that's a game
mechanic :) ) So you have a weapon that packs more firepower than a SMG
into a more concealable package.

This is bad news to have in criminal hands :)

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 65
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:13:42 PST
>....and no PC if've ever met had one of these. Even wired 2 is rare in
my game, but that'a another matter. No Sammy with enough brains to eat
without help is going to spend 5 points of essence on his >initiative.
He would be dead in no time.

WHY? Would you have consequences for using such ware (and all other
speed enhancing technology and magic, as they are indestiguishable to
the observer and, I'd expect, lawmakers)?

Or is using such ware just a bad idea "investment" wise?
IE, do you conside rother ware more likely to enhance survival, or at
least not endanger it?

I ask because Wired 3 is THE quintessential piece of sammuria cyber-
many of the badass NPC's have it, and it is something street punks
aspire to and respect. We've had two player chacters use it, and both
have had decent survival prospects.



Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 66
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:49:43 EST
On Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:39:25 +0000 "Paul J. Adam" writes:

>Point remains, Mr Wired 3 needs a gun to kill a busful of
>schoolchildren. Mr Magician can do it by snapping his fingers. Who's a
>bigger threat?

Not exactly... Mr. Wired 3 can do just fine with just a knife, or his
bare hands... who's going to stop him? Mr. Magician has the potential to
be able to learn to kill a busfull of school children. Both are very
hard to accurately identify (well, *now*.. after the reflex trigger).
And I bet this is the exact sort of thing that political parties, and
independant group spokespeople have great debates and arguments over when
legislation is passed.

~Tim
Message no. 67
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:26:28 -0500
At 08:49 PM 11/17/97 EST, you wrote:
>Not exactly... Mr. Wired 3 can do just fine with just a knife, or his
>bare hands... who's going to stop him? Mr. Magician has the potential to
>be able to learn to kill a busfull of school children. Both are very
>hard to accurately identify (well, *now*.. after the reflex trigger).
>And I bet this is the exact sort of thing that political parties, and
>independant group spokespeople have great debates and arguments over when
>legislation is passed.

Frankly, whether done without a weapon or with, the crime is the same. If
weapons and ammo are available to criminals, the mage isn't that much more
a threat, AND far less common a threat than he guy with a gun and a
penchant for killing busloads of children (anyone else seeing visions of a
certain Dirty Harry movie here? Maybe it's just me). Registering and
controlling mages would be a daunting task, it is far easier to punish them
as crimes are committed and come to trial than to try to regulate them all.
Think about it: only mages can detect mages. How many mages will want to
go about scanning people day after day to see who is and who isn't a mage,
so all the "unregistered's" can be found? Not many, there's better pay and
more interesting work for a mage. And so... even if laws severely
restricting mages were to end up on the books (say the ACLU was dissolved
into sludge or something), would they be enforced? We can't enforce laws
preventing twelve-year-olds from getting cigarettes. And I for one think
this thread is going nowhere fast... let's kill it before it grows.

losthalo
Message no. 68
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 07:50:03 +0000
On 17 Nov 97, Paul J. Adam disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

> >Yep. But then, it's a Complex Action, so an SMG firing bursts gets 2
> >9S or 10S shots for onr 12S,
>
> The Thunderbolt gets two 12S bursts.

Ouch. Well, THIS one is a cop weapon, and nobody should get it.
Forget the drek about going public...

> >and it can fire FA for 16-17D,
>
> At +10 recoil modifiers. (Okay, gas vent it down to a +6, still
> hurts).

Well, get high STR and perhaps a Gyromount? (OK, I know gyromounts
are hellishly obvious. Well, if you're a cybersammie, get some
enhanced STR arms with a built-in cybermout. Or get your friendly
mage cast a Steady Arms spell on you. <grins evilly> I designed this
spell specially for a physad that makes extensive use of SMGs...)

> >not to
> >mention the possibility of supressing fire...
>
> Which as the rules stand is pretty ineffective, though I agree we
> tweak it.
>
> And remember, many SMGs aren't full-auto capable.

True, though modifying them to FA shouldn't be that hard (in most
cases)... After all, somebody with Firearms 6 is a pretty skilled
armorer, too.

> >And the ranges are better off.
>
> True.

Of course, if the GM just says: it's medium range, or if you're
specializing in in-house fighting, then it's pretty irrelevant, isn't
it?

<snip>

<snip>

> This is bad news to have in criminal hands :)

Yes, I see I have to agree on that one. (Well, I've never seen Ruger
Thunderbolt, as my GM doesn't have Lone Star. <happy grin>)

Though the main problem is that the damage is a bit weird... And
Heavy Pistols rule...

Oh well, if I'd want realism, I'd play Phoenix Command... Sigh.
(BTW: Anybody knows of any good site where I could buy Phoenix
Command? My RPG shop doesn't stock it...)


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
JESUS LOVES BLACK AND WHITE (but he prefers Johnny Walker).
Message no. 69
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:32:03 GMT
On Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:08:55 +0000, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> In article <199711170125.CAA14659@*****.onet.pl>, "Leszek Karlik, aka
> Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL> writes
>
> >I mean, I know Savalette and Thunderbolt are munchkinny weapons, but
> >are there in-game reasons (that is, not related to the fact that they
> >do 12S instead of 9S with longer ranges) for them being so
> >ridicolously mil-spec in comparison with SMGs?
>
> They're pistols rather than SMGs: IRL that's a pretty serious size
> difference (compare a MP-5 and a USP, for instance) and so the
> concealability factor is very significant. (Sure, Shadowrun says an Ares
> Predator and a HK227 have the same concealability, but that's a game
> mechanic :) ) So you have a weapon that packs more firepower than a SMG
> into a more concealable package.

Add to it the question "why can't anyone make an SMG that fires the same
(9M) ammunition as a heavy pistol (such as the Guardian)?" After all, the
recoil modifiers are the same (+1) so the heavy pistol ammo doesn't have
any more kick than the wimpier 6M or 7M ammo used in the SMGs. Why not
just take the Savalette action and put it inside a sturdier receiver,
provide a second hand grip to steady the weapon, and use a 30-round
magazine. Ta-Da!-- the Savalette "Defender" SMG [9M- SA/BF/FA]

Now you've opened up an even bigger can of worms :)

It is a munchy weapon, though. Our last campaign was rather high powered
and my ref allowed me to create a Bodyguard character that used two
Guardians. He had the appropriate custom cyberwere that provided him with
the ability to fire both weapons at once within a 30 field of fire. It
cost me dearly to create such a character that could fire two of these
weapons accurately without major penalties and I could have done far more
damage if I had chosen two SMGs instead. My character sure looked cool,
though :)



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 70
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:32:05 GMT
On Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:26:28 -0500, losthalo wrote:


> Think about it: only mages can detect mages. How many mages will want to
> go about scanning people day after day to see who is and who isn't a mage,
> so all the "unregistered's" can be found?

Can you say "Psi Core"? :)



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 71
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:31:00 GMT
on 17.11.97 trrkt@*****.ONET.PL wrote:

[Thunderbold for PCs]
t> > t> Well, are they really SO killer? I mean, get a good SMG, or a
t> > Viper t> Slivergun. In most cases, you're better off. (OK, so Viper
t> > is useless t> against heavily armoured targets.. Sue me. ;P )
t> >
t> > Huh? You usually fire an SMG in burst. That's 9S or 10S.
t> > A Slivergun does 12D(f) which goes down to 12S against any armor
t> > (including synth-leathers) and is resisted against with double
t> > ballistic (6 points for armor jacket) The Ruger OTOH does 12S
t> > nomatter what. So the Thunderbolt is the most deadly of the three
t> > (Damn! Two bursts of 12S. I wished an AR could do that!)
t>
t> Yeah, but in case of SMG it's a simple action to fire burst, and on
t> FA, you can do 17D or 18D. Savalette uses Complex Action to fire a
t> burst, so it's not such a biggie.
t> I haven't seen Ruget, though. Does it use Simple action to fire?

IIRC Simple (at least that's what's listed in my FoF).

t> Besides, there's always the issue of ranges (HP vs SMG) and SMG can
t> provide supressing fire (or, better yet, TWO SMGs...)

Well, ranges aren't that important. I mean how often do you have to fire
beyond 60m in your average urban shadowrun? And zoom 3 keeps those nasty
range mods away.

t> > And if someone is stupid enough to ru around with an AR in my game,
t> > *two* SWAT-teams come visiting. Satisfied?
t>
t> Yes. Well, actually, if he walks on the Lone Star territory, yes, but
t> if he invades some poor corp that has no Lone Star contract - well,
t> they don't pay, do they? <evil grin>

Sure. But as soon as they get out of that building...
(Can you think of any building that isn't at leat protected by the Star
that's worth going in with ARs?)


t> > t> Not to mention the Wired 3. Anybody discovered with Wired 3
t> >
t> > ....and no PC if've ever met had one of these. Even wired 2 is rare
t> > in my game, but that'a another matter. No Sammy with enough brains
t> > to eat without help is going to spend 5 points of essence on his
t> > initiative. He would be dead in no time.
t>
t> Well, ummm... Hey, you know what? You're right!

I do have my bright moments. :)

t> Our sammies have
t> Wired 2, usually... It's only that I've been playing a mage for sooo
t> long... <grin>
t> Though Wired 3 and lotsa bioware would be a Nice Thing, especially
t> for that Troll sammie (a Body Index of HOW MUCH? <grin>). The only
t> problem is that a starting char can have at max 1M¥ on equipment, and
t> that won't cut it for Wired 3 and lotsa bio...
t> I can see that NPC from Hell, though. <shudder> I'm lucky my GM's not
t> on the list... <epg>

Well, I've played (and occasionly still play) in a group where the GM got
that problem. His NPCs usually have 5MY worth chrome and bio (plus skills
at 10+, which kinda sucks in a karma 1 group). In my own game, the
thoughest guy the players ever ran into was a slightly chromed mage called
Necro. He isn't that far out (maybe karma 5 or so), but still awesome.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 72
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:27:00 GMT
on 17.11.97 landsquid@*******.COM wrote:
l> >....and no PC if've ever met had one of these. Even wired 2 is rare in
l> my game, but that'a another matter. No Sammy with enough brains to eat
l> without help is going to spend 5 points of essence on his >initiative.
l> He would be dead in no time.
l>
l> WHY? Would you have consequences for using such ware (and all other
l> speed enhancing technology and magic, as they are indestiguishable to
l> the observer and, I'd expect, lawmakers)?
l>
l> Or is using such ware just a bad idea "investment" wise?
l> IE, do you conside rother ware more likely to enhance survival, or at
l> least not endanger it?
l>
l> I ask because Wired 3 is THE quintessential piece of sammuria cyber-
l> many of the badass NPC's have it, and it is something street punks
l> aspire to and respect. We've had two player chacters use it, and both
l> have had decent survival prospects.

Well, I don't run a hack'n'slay game. If you try to survive in my game,
you have to be flexible. Of course you can make a char with wired 3 and a
smartlink (though I wouldn't let you play it), but then he's got nothing
else. The most essential part of cyber in my game is a headware radio with
a commlink. It's just the same as skills: You can write a char with all
the combat skills at 6 (again, 'Not in my game. No you won't'), but
without etiquette skills and the like, you're dead meat (try to find a job
with not etiquette skills). Sure there is fighting in my game, but it's
not the most essential part. It does happen (though my players have
learned that when they have to fight, they really messed things up), but a
char only focused on that's not worth anything (and no fun).

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 73
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:01:04 -0500
At 01:27 PM 11/18/97 GMT, you wrote:
>Well, I don't run a hack'n'slay game. If you try to survive in my game,
>you have to be flexible. Of course you can make a char with wired 3 and a
>smartlink (though I wouldn't let you play it), but then he's got nothing
>else. The most essential part of cyber in my game is a headware radio with
>a commlink. It's just the same as skills: You can write a char with all
>the combat skills at 6 (again, 'Not in my game. No you won't'), but
>without etiquette skills and the like, you're dead meat (try to find a job
>with not etiquette skills). Sure there is fighting in my game, but it's
>not the most essential part. It does happen (though my players have
>learned that when they have to fight, they really messed things up), but a
>char only focused on that's not worth anything (and no fun).

I think you've missed something here: a character who thinks of himself as
a samurai puts a priority on combat. Now if you really discourage combat,
that's fine, but in reality there are those who specialize in that sort of
thing, and making a name as a street samurai comes from effectiveness.
Wired reflexes 3, while extreme, is a pretty potent weapon to someone who
even occasionally has to do some fighting, or run like hell from an ambush.
Saying that a radio is more useful to a sammie is silly... buy a radio you
can strap to your wrist, etc. No essence loss and generally the same
usefulness. To a spy, a radio would be invaluable, however.

Also, simply because a character has combat abilities doesn't mean they are
combat machines. I have only ever seen a few of those in my gaming, even
most street samurai (who seem stereotyped as
agents-o-death-with-no-personality) are interesting characters.

losthalo
Message no. 74
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:34:54 +0000
In article <19971117.175146.10007.0.z-i-m@****.com>, Tim Cooper <z-i-
m@****.COM> writes
>On Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:39:25 +0000 "Paul J. Adam" writes:
>
>>Point remains, Mr Wired 3 needs a gun to kill a busful of
>>schoolchildren. Mr Magician can do it by snapping his fingers. Who's a
>>bigger threat?
>
>Not exactly... Mr. Wired 3 can do just fine with just a knife, or his
>bare hands... who's going to stop him?

With Wired 3 and bare hands and a lot of skill, you can kill one person
per action. You kill two or three, then everyone around you uses their
one Action to sprint away. They scatter pretty fast, and you have to run
them down and kill them one at a time.

With a Fireball spell you blast the whole group in one easily-fried
package, with no difficulty. Sure, you can do the same with a grenade,
as long as you've _got_ the grenade.

>Mr. Magician has the potential to
>be able to learn to kill a busfull of school children. Both are very
>hard to accurately identify (well, *now*.. after the reflex trigger).
>And I bet this is the exact sort of thing that political parties, and
>independant group spokespeople have great debates and arguments over when
>legislation is passed.

When legislation is even debated.


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 75
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:53:13 +0000
In article <3.0.3.16.19971117112810.23f744de@**********.com>, losthalo
<losthalo@********.COM> writes
>Frankly, whether done without a weapon or with, the crime is the same. If
>weapons and ammo are available to criminals, the mage isn't that much more
>a threat, AND far less common a threat than he guy with a gun and a
>penchant for killing busloads of children (anyone else seeing visions of a
>certain Dirty Harry movie here? Maybe it's just me).

If you own a gun, get a permit. If you're a magician, get a permit.

After all: if you have a permit, it's a lot easier to explain that you
cast Mana Bolt on that mugger when the cops arrive. You're a licenced
magician and you cast a spell in self-defence.

If you don't... the reaction is likely to be similar to using an
unlicenced firearm in self defence. You'll certainly be questioned,
probably charged. Then what?

The problem remains, with a gunman you take away the gun. But the cops
have a magician, who knows offensive magic, and has demonstrated a
willingness to use it. Who's he going to cast those spells of his on
next? How can you stop the guy doing this again, next time for lesser
cause?

Also, there's the PR problem. The trideo magicians all know all the
spells. The magician in the example above might be a Wolf adept who
knows only combat and detection spells, and who doesn't know a non-
lethal spell. Why didn't he cast a Stun Bolt or use some other nonlethal
magic? (Because he doesn't know how? But do the jury understand magic
clearly enough to understand that point?)

Which brings me to another point... shamans and their hangups, such as
Wolf and Bear berserking, or Shark's killing frenzy. A few court cases
involving those, and the public perception of magic is that they're
dangerously out of control.

>Registering and
>controlling mages would be a daunting task, it is far easier to punish them
>as crimes are committed and come to trial than to try to regulate them all.

What's easily or sensibly done, and what sections of the public want and
will vote for, are different things.

> Think about it: only mages can detect mages. How many mages will want to
>go about scanning people day after day to see who is and who isn't a mage,
>so all the "unregistered's" can be found?

No need for that... at the most brutal and simple, the only mages are
registered mages. Any unregistered magically active individuals picked
up (whether as perpetrators of crime, spotted by security at highly
guarded areas where there _is_ magical surveillance - watchers are
useful and relatively cheap for this, or whatever) get their talent
burned out by drugs and/or cyberware (hey, no more magic, but 600 megs
of headware memory! Now if they'd only included a datajack so I could
get at it...)

Register it or lose it. Odds of losing it aren't great if you avoid
airports and the like, but that's a big risk.

>And so... even if laws severely
>restricting mages were to end up on the books (say the ACLU was dissolved
>into sludge or something), would they be enforced? We can't enforce laws
>preventing twelve-year-olds from getting cigarettes.

Doesn't mean letting twelve-year-olds smoke is a good idea. And fewer
are doing so than if there was no minimum age.

Magicians in 2058 will have to cope with a range of public opinion,
tending towards (though not wholly) hostility, which will manifest in
forms including occasional witch hunts and calls for legislation.

Again: this is already done in Shadowrun's Britain, so it _can_ be done.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 76
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:30:06 -0500
Tobias Berghoff[SMTP:Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE] wrote:
> t> Besides, there's always the issue of ranges (HP vs SMG) and SMG can
> t> provide supressing fire (or, better yet, TWO SMGs...)
>
> Well, ranges aren't that important. I mean how often do you have to =
fire
> beyond 60m in your average urban shadowrun? And zoom 3 keeps those =
nasty
> range mods away.

Ask my players that. They got pinned down on a city street once by a =
sniper on
a rooftop 100m away, firing single aimed rounds. That's out of pistol =
range,
and a fair shot for SMGs. As the team was trying to *leave* a crime =
scene
(they had just killed someone in a nightclub) they couldn't just wait it =
out
until the Star showed up. The one person with an AR in his car's trunk =
was
severely wounded in the arm before he could get to it.

They finally got out of this fix by having the two people with SMGs =
provide covering fire to keep the sniper's head below the parapet, while =
two more
people stormed the building the sniper was in.

The sniper got away, though. And if she had had an AR instead of a =
sniping
rifle, things could have gotten worse.


--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
Message no. 77
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:16:00 GMT
on 18.11.97 losthalo@********.COM wrote:

[my rather non-combat-monster-game]

l> I think you've missed something here: a character who thinks of himself as
l> a samurai puts a priority on combat. Now if you really discourage combat,
l> that's fine, but in reality there are those who specialize in that sort of
l> thing, and making a name as a street samurai comes from effectiveness.

Sure. But as you know from one of our past discussions, I don't think the
"Really effective, cold harded killer" is a very realistic and/or playable
(in the style we prefere) char.

l> Wired reflexes 3, while extreme, is a pretty potent weapon to someone who
l> even occasionally has to do some fighting, or run like hell from an ambush.

Yeah. But are you willing to destroy your life for that? Your flexiblity?
Your humanity? See, we don't run 'normal' games. It's more like life with
a run from time to time. While lots of combat-chrome is cool (for the
player and only for the player) in combat, it's not essential in our game.
The prob is that I'll give someone with essence <1 a +4 on all social
tests. That pretty much makes that char useless. SR isn't Mechwarrior
(Don't get me wrong: I like Mechwarrior. But it's a different game), and
combat isn't everything. BTW, try to have half a million Yen at a time.
Wired 3 is milspec. It's nothing I'd ever give to a starting char.

l> Saying that a radio is more useful to a sammie is silly... buy a radio you
l> can strap to your wrist, etc. No essence loss and generally the same
l> usefulness. To a spy, a radio would be invaluable, however.

Thanks for calling me silly. :)
Anyway, this time, you miss something. I didn't say that a radio is most
useful to a sammie (though he's going to need it), what I meant is that
you have to do much more roleplaying, negotiation and social interaction
in my game. A commlink is really useful there. And it doesn't wake up all
the bad guy, then your girlfriend calls you in the middle of a run. :)

l> Also, simply because a character has combat abilities doesn't mean they are
l> combat machines. I have only ever seen a few of those in my gaming, even
l> most street samurai (who seem stereotyped as
l> agents-o-death-with-no-personality) are interesting characters.

Sure. But if I put everything into combat, I do have a combat machine.
That char can't do anything else. And that doesn't make him/her very
useful (as a GM should make the villians defeatable. Of course, if you
keep sending threat 9+ NPCs at a karma 1 group, they *need* wired 3)



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 78
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol.
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:38:38 -0500
At 03:16 PM 11/19/97 GMT, you wrote:
>on 18.11.97 losthalo@********.COM wrote:
>
>[my rather non-combat-monster-game]

>Sure. But as you know from one of our past discussions, I don't think the
>"Really effective, cold harded killer" is a very realistic and/or playable
>(in the style we prefere) char.

Yes, but even people who specialize in combat (or preventing it, such as a
bodyguard) might have a need of superior response speed. Wired 3 means
reacting quickly to an ambush, or getting to cover *before* you need to
make a dodge roll. But if your game rarely sees combat, sure, it's prolly
irrelevant. You seemed to be saying that other ware was just better.
If I'm giving up essence, it's for something I see as saving my ass when
everything's gone to hell, or which is central to my job (datajacks are
incredibly useful for a variety of things, and a bargain at .2 essence =).

>Yeah. But are you willing to destroy your life for that? Your flexiblity?
>Your humanity?

Perhaps not, but if not, then would I get other 'ware, either? Not unless
my job needed it (VCRs for riggers, datajacks for deckers, etc.). Samurai
sacrifice a little humanity to be good at what they do, and not just in
cyberware. As you've said, they kill people; either a little or a lot,
they kill people and learn how better to kill people, and that certainly
works some changes. Wired reflexes are an incredible asset in a fight, so
if you get in fights, they're "worth it". The same is even more true of a
smartgun link, since it has a much lower essence cost, and a very useful
set of bonuses in firefights...

>See, we don't run 'normal' games. It's more like life with
>a run from time to time. While lots of combat-chrome is cool (for the
>player and only for the player) in combat, it's not essential in our game.
>The prob is that I'll give someone with essence <1 a +4 on all social
>tests. That pretty much makes that char useless. SR isn't Mechwarrior
>(Don't get me wrong: I like Mechwarrior. But it's a different game), and
>combat isn't everything. BTW, try to have half a million Yen at a time.
>Wired 3 is milspec. It's nothing I'd ever give to a starting char.

Yes, but I've seen players, well, roleplay that +4 modifier well, and it
was a lot of fun. :) He wasn't useless, in that campaign, his personality
just caused problems sometimes... As did the personality of the essence 2+
samurai who was an old hand at combat and had a tendency to approach every
situation with an "Hey, I can handle this" attitude. He would go in, guns
blazing, and somehow (we don't know how, he rarely even spent karma on
rerolls) manage to pull it off. Kill the guy holding the teenage girl
hostage, survive the ambush that should've gotten us all killed, et cetera.

>Thanks for calling me silly. :)
>Anyway, this time, you miss something. I didn't say that a radio is most
>useful to a sammie (though he's going to need it), what I meant is that
>you have to do much more roleplaying, negotiation and social interaction
>in my game. A commlink is really useful there. And it doesn't wake up all
>the bad guy, then your girlfriend calls you in the middle of a run. :)

Nah, that's why pocket secs have a "take a message" feature. :) Stud it
into a datajack... You'll know the call came in, she can leave the message
and if you're not *busy*, either pick up or listen to the message as it's
being left.

>Sure. But if I put everything into combat, I do have a combat machine.
>That char can't do anything else. And that doesn't make him/her very
>useful (as a GM should make the villians defeatable. Of course, if you
>keep sending threat 9+ NPCs at a karma 1 group, they *need* wired 3)

I have yet to see many combat machines (though yeah, have seen a few; one
gave up his life to save the group, too, which was impressive, as up to
that point he'd been a ruthless, selfish bastard).

Anyway, level of threat and deadliness of characters' cyber is relative.
But wirewd reflexes are so useful in any fight, that if you have to do some
fighting, they're worth it. Wired 3, well... It's obviously an "I get
into a lot of fights and I win them" piece of cyber. But... those sort of
characters can still think, and behave intelligently, and do work other
than killing things and bathing in blood. If the group for instance doesn't
do much fighting, then one character good at fighting and tactics takes the
pressure off other members worrying over that, much as one mage can be the
memebr who worries about astral security, etc.

losthalo

Further Reading

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