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Message no. 1
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol. and Re: Power Plant Mania
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:29:32 +0000
On 18 Nov 97, Tobias Berghoff disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
by writing:

> on 17.11.97 trrkt@*****.ONET.PL wrote:
<snip Thunderbolt and Savalette>

> t> Besides, there's always the issue of ranges (HP vs SMG) and SMG
> can t> provide supressing fire (or, better yet, TWO SMGs...)
>
> Well, ranges aren't that important. I mean how often do you have to
> fire beyond 60m in your average urban shadowrun? And zoom 3 keeps
> those nasty range mods away.

Ehhh....
<RANT>
Ever seen a gun with magscope on it? Used in close quarters? Ehh?
Well, I have (had) a big problem with cyber magnification... Why?
Well, there are no rules for it. The only rules for magnification are
given for optical scopes, but they do not work with smartlinks. (So
it's wise to assume smartlinks don't work with cyber/magical
magnification too).
It always annoyed me when somebody combined smartlink and cyber mag 3
to have straight 2's in close ranges...
Of course, now that I stole Gurth's magscope rules, I'm a happy
boy... ;P
BTW: Shouldn't magnification have _negative_ effects on close range?
It's hard to keep tabs on a fast moving subject when it occupies your
whole field of vision... (Of course, my only experience with
magnification-aided aiming (or any aiming, for that matter) comes
from games, so... ;P )
</RANT>

<BIG SNIP>

On 18 Nov 97, Tobias Berghoff disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
on the subject of Power Plant Mania by writing:

> It's just that players (and GMs) always want to invent thier own
> stuff (RPGers are a creative bunch, you know) and that's much easier
> if the GM has some rules to do it. We have multiple engines in the

Rules? GM has to have rules? Next thing, you'll say he has to obey
them... Sheesh... ;P

> sourcebooks, so you can imagine that lots of players want their own.
> Especially since the R2 came out. (I know, you can always solve the
> problem with a fistfight, but one of my players' doing
> TeaKwonDo...:)

Tea Kwon Do? Way of Tea and Foot? I mean, he must have learned it in
England.
"It's tea-time, sabumnim..."

;P

On 18 Nov 97, Tobias Berghoff disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
by writing:

<cut Wired 3>

> Well, I don't run a hack'n'slay game. If you try to survive in my
> game, you have to be flexible. Of course you can make a char with
> wired 3 and a smartlink (though I wouldn't let you play it), but
> then he's got nothing else. The most essential part of cyber in my
> game is a headware radio with a commlink. It's just the same as

Well, what about mages? They can't have cyber-radio... So our team
uses the TacComm system for communication (And it's much harder to
break than an implanted one..)

I mean, sammie doesn't need anything much except smartling and wired.
The rest can come from bio. Granted, no starting PC would have THAT
amount of cash, but as a character designed to develop...


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
I sometimes think of us as a gang of mean little old ladies in a combination rest home
and obstacle course. - Corwin
Message no. 2
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol. and Re: Power Plant Mania
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:25:00 GMT
on 18.11.97 trrkt@*****.ONET.PL wrote:

t> <snip Thunderbolt and Savalette>
t>
t> > t> Besides, there's always the issue of ranges (HP vs SMG) and SMG
t> > can t> provide supressing fire (or, better yet, TWO SMGs...)
t> >
t> > Well, ranges aren't that important. I mean how often do you have to
t> > fire beyond 60m in your average urban shadowrun? And zoom 3 keeps
t> > those nasty range mods away.
t>
t> Ehhh....
t> <RANT>
t> Ever seen a gun with magscope on it? Used in close quarters? Ehh?

<From Dusk Til Dawn>
Ev'rybody be cool.
YOU! Be cool!
</From Dusk Til Dawn>

I was talking about cybereyes.

t> Well, I have (had) a big problem with cyber magnification... Why?
t> Well, there are no rules for it. The only rules for magnification are
t> given for optical scopes, but they do not work with smartlinks. (So
t> it's wise to assume smartlinks don't work with cyber/magical
t> magnification too).

They do.

t> It always annoyed me when somebody combined smartlink and cyber mag 3
t> to have straight 2's in close ranges...

Sure. But that's what the other mods are for. Someone with that things is
supposed to be Jesus in a gunfight.

t> Of course, now that I stole Gurth's magscope rules, I'm a happy
t> boy... ;P
t> BTW: Shouldn't magnification have _negative_ effects on close range?
t> It's hard to keep tabs on a fast moving subject when it occupies your
t> whole field of vision... (Of course, my only experience with
t> magnification-aided aiming (or any aiming, for that matter) comes
t> from games, so... ;P )

Well, if someone tried to fire a gun with a normal scope (like...say a
sniper rifle), I'd give him +6 (seems ok to me).

t> On 18 Nov 97, Tobias Berghoff disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
t> on the subject of Power Plant Mania by writing:

Whoopy! The two-in-one mail! YEAH!


t> > It's just that players (and GMs) always want to invent thier own
t> > stuff (RPGers are a creative bunch, you know) and that's much easier
t> > if the GM has some rules to do it. We have multiple engines in the
t>
t> Rules? GM has to have rules? Next thing, you'll say he has to obey
t> them... Sheesh... ;P

You could always do it the way you want it to have, but that leads to
extreme GM munchkinism.

t> Tea Kwon Do? Way of Tea and Foot? I mean, he must have learned it in
t> England.
t> "It's tea-time, sabumnim..."

ROTFLMOA! I've gotta tell him this one!

t> On 18 Nov 97, Tobias Berghoff disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
t> by writing:

three-in-one? WOW!

t>
t> <cut Wired 3>
t>
t> > Well, I don't run a hack'n'slay game. If you try to survive in my
t> > game, you have to be flexible. Of course you can make a char with
t> > wired 3 and a smartlink (though I wouldn't let you play it), but
t> > then he's got nothing else. The most essential part of cyber in my
t> > game is a headware radio with a commlink. It's just the same as
t>
t> Well, what about mages? They can't have cyber-radio... So our team
t> uses the TacComm system for communication (And it's much harder to
t> break than an implanted one..)

Sure, but it's expensive. And the mages have handys usually. It's just so
much more effective to phone six people at once.

t> I mean, sammie doesn't need anything much except smartling and wired.
t> The rest can come from bio. Granted, no starting PC would have THAT
t> amount of cash, but as a character designed to develop...

Well, you have to keeps the PC in mind. Or should I say "the PC's mind in
mind"? Would he do that to himself? Probably not.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 3
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol. and Re: Power Plant Mania
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:53:29 +0000
On 19 Nov 97, Tobias Berghoff disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
by writing:

<snip magscope rang>
>
> <From Dusk Til Dawn>
> Ev'rybody be cool.
> YOU! Be cool!
> </From Dusk Til Dawn>
>
> I was talking about cybereyes.

Yes. I know. That's precisely what I am talking about.

> t> Well, I have (had) a big problem with cyber magnification... Why?
> t> Well, there are no rules for it. The only rules for magnification
> are t> given for optical scopes, but they do not work with
> smartlinks. (So t> it's wise to assume smartlinks don't work with
> cyber/magical t> magnification too).
>
> They do.

Please examine the following reasoning:
a) There are no explicit rules given for cyber or magical vision
magnification. There are rules, however, for "normal" magscope.
b) "Normal" magscope can't be used with smartlink.
c) Since there are no rules stated anywhere for cybermagnification,
we have to assume that they either:
- work like "normal" magscope
- don't work like "normal" magscope
d) So, we either have magnification that won't work with smartlink,
or
b) we have something with no rules - perhaps that's just for scanning
etc?

---
Besides, when you zoom in, your field of vision narrows. Pretty
logical, ain't it? Well, try keeping a moving, dodging target while
your field of vision is wide enough for his chest to fit in.

> t> It always annoyed me when somebody combined smartlink and cyber
> mag 3 t> to have straight 2's in close ranges...
>
> Sure. But that's what the other mods are for. Someone with that
> things is supposed to be Jesus in a gunfight.

Naaah. That's just exploiting the rules, IMHO. And it's not very
logical - you use magscope to hit at long distances, not at short
ones.

<snip>

> t> On 18 Nov 97, Tobias Berghoff disseminated foul capitalist
> propaganda t> on the subject of Power Plant Mania by writing:
>
> Whoopy! The two-in-one mail! YEAH!

Yep... Save on, umm, something.

<snip>


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
Handymen do it with their hands.
Message no. 4
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol. and Re: Power Plant Mania
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:02:11 +0000
Tobias Berghoff wrote:
> t> It always annoyed me when somebody combined smartlink and cyber mag 3
> t> to have straight 2's in close ranges...
>
> Sure. But that's what the other mods are for. Someone with that things is
> supposed to be Jesus in a gunfight.

We're talking cheap mods here. Electronic mag - 3 and smartgun link
is cheap cyber, real cheap. I do not want Jesus to be that cheap. But
hey, that's just me. Add smartling II instead and you'll also have
real nice TN's at extreme range... 0 base? Something like that.

And magic... hmph. 'Steady arm' spells? Cold blood? Bah, humbug!

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 5
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol. and Re: Power Plant Mania
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:33:49 +0000
On 20 Nov 97, Fade disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

> Tobias Berghoff wrote:
> > t> It always annoyed me when somebody combined smartlink and cyber mag 3
> > t> to have straight 2's in close ranges...
> >
> > Sure. But that's what the other mods are for. Someone with that things is
> > supposed to be Jesus in a gunfight.
>
> We're talking cheap mods here. Electronic mag - 3 and smartgun link
> is cheap cyber, real cheap. I do not want Jesus to be that cheap.
> But hey, that's just me. Add smartling II instead and you'll also
> have real nice TN's at extreme range... 0 base? Something like that.

Yes, that is the point. Your average ganger could buy them, and
street warfare would be suddenly much more deadly (no more shooting
at other gangers and missing - shoot=kill).

> And magic... hmph. 'Steady arm' spells? Cold blood? Bah, humbug!

<grin>
Hey, if there's an Enhance Aim spell... ;P


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
You lost WHAT source code?
Message no. 6
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol. and Re: Power Plant Mania
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:20:31 -0500
At 08:33 PM 11/20/97 +0000, you wrote:
>On 20 Nov 97, Fade disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
>writing:
>
>> Tobias Berghoff wrote:
>> > t> It always annoyed me when somebody combined smartlink and cyber mag 3
>> > t> to have straight 2's in close ranges...
>> >
>> > Sure. But that's what the other mods are for. Someone with that things is
>> > supposed to be Jesus in a gunfight.
>>
>> We're talking cheap mods here. Electronic mag - 3 and smartgun link
>> is cheap cyber, real cheap. I do not want Jesus to be that cheap.
>> But hey, that's just me. Add smartling II instead and you'll also
>> have real nice TN's at extreme range... 0 base? Something like that.
>
>Yes, that is the point. Your average ganger could buy them, and
>street warfare would be suddenly much more deadly (no more shooting
>at other gangers and missing - shoot=kill).

Cheap =/= easy to get. And just because the 'ware is cheap doesn't mean it
is either cheap or easy to find someone to install it. Besides, the cost
is on the order of 20,000 here (mag eyes are real expensive). That isn't
cheap, except compared to wired 3.

--DT
Message no. 7
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Favorite Pistol. and Re: Power Plant Mania
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 14:59:00 GMT
on 20.11.97 runefo@***.UIO.NO wrote:

r> > t> It always annoyed me when somebody combined smartlink and cyber mag 3
r> > t> to have straight 2's in close ranges...
r> >
r> > Sure. But that's what the other mods are for. Someone with that things is
r> > supposed to be Jesus in a gunfight.
r>
r> We're talking cheap mods here. Electronic mag - 3 and smartgun link
r> is cheap cyber, real cheap.

Sure. But is it available to J. Random Streetdoc? Maybe level 1, but 2 or
3....hey, GMs choice.....:)

r> I do not want Jesus to be that cheap.

Hell, he got nailed to a stupid tree. THat never happened to any of my
Sammys >:-)

r> But
r> hey, that's just me. Add smartling II instead and you'll also have
r> real nice TN's at extreme range... 0 base? Something like that.

Well, Smart 2 is milspec in my game. This thing is just to nasty. And as I
use a hit location system, even a 10+ succsesses shot from an AR thar hits
the arm is not going to kill you instandly. But hey, that's just me. <eg>



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------

Further Reading

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