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From:	Joshua Bell <joshbell@**********.COM>
Subject:	Fencing vs. Street Index
Date:	Tue, 5 May 1998 18:58:43 -0400

Message no. 1 Ok chummers, here is a question I have for you:

first let me state the plain rules from the SR rulebook:

1. If you sell to a fence the standard amount of money the runners get
back is 30% list, which can be adjusted through negotiating (minimum of 10%
list, Maximum of 50% list).

2. All items have a Street Index, which is used as a multipiler to the
price. (Though runners still get to negotiate the price a little).
______

My Question is therefore:

Where does the extra money go?

Look at this example... I will leave out negotiations tests to simplify, a
runner team gets 100 rounds of APDS ammo. Instead of keeping it the sell
it to a fence. APDS costs 70Y per 10 rounds and has a street index of 4.
the runners in this case get 210Y and the fence gets 2800Y - 210Y = 2590Y

I know that this is overly simplistic, but I think that you get my drift...
Why would a runner sell to a fence when he can sell the stuff on the street
(or to a fixer) at a much higher profit?

I mean, I KNOW that the fence is taking a risk.. but so are the runners!

what about this:

"Optional" Runners get to multiply an item by its STREET INDEX, then they
start at 30% of that and negotiate!

(Please understand that this is mearly a sugestion and I don't know its
effect on a real game because I just thought it up)

From:	losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fencing vs. Street Index
Date:	Tue, 5 May 1998 21:25:42 -0400

Message no. 2 At 06:58 PM 5/5/98 -0400, you wrote:
>My Question is therefore:
>
>Where does the extra money go?

Discount to the buyer for hot merchandise, and the fence's profit for
handling such illegal stuff.

>Look at this example... I will leave out negotiations tests to simplify, a
>runner team gets 100 rounds of APDS ammo. Instead of keeping it the sell
>it to a fence. APDS costs 70Y per 10 rounds and has a street index of 4.
>the runners in this case get 210Y and the fence gets 2800Y - 210Y = 2590Y
>
>I know that this is overly simplistic, but I think that you get my drift...
>Why would a runner sell to a fence when he can sell the stuff on the street
>(or to a fixer) at a much higher profit?

A Fixer should take a similar chunk, because they are essentially fences
(among other things). On the street? You run all the risks that the fence
does in looking for buyers, including having someone snitch to the Star, or
falling into a sting operation.

>I mean, I KNOW that the fence is taking a risk.. but so are the runners!

>what about this:

>"Optional" Runners get to multiply an item by its STREET INDEX, then they
>start at 30% of that and negotiate!

Well, I do agree that street index should affect the base price, if that's
where you're selling it. If something's worth three times as much on the
street, then if you're selling it to a Fixer starting with the base price
as 3x the list price for negotiating with him makes sense to me.

losthalo@********.comwhileyouarelisteningyourwillingattentionismakingyoumore
andmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome.

"Some things are true whether you believe them or not."

From:	Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fencing vs. Street Index
Date:	Tue, 5 May 1998 19:58:05 -0700

Message no. 3 >My Question is therefore:
>Where does the extra money go?

Protection, profit, and paying off the original source? I dunno - maybe
it won't jack the price up to three times 'shelf' cost, but I also know
most fixers or fences won't like anyone trying to corner their
business. :)

- Matt

------------------------------------
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From:	Jonathan Andrews <jmandrews@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Fencing vs. Street Index
Date:	Tue, 5 May 1998 22:16:53 -0500

Message no. 4 On Tue, 5 May 1998, Joshua Bell wrote:

> I know that this is overly simplistic, but I think that you get my drift...
> Why would a runner sell to a fence when he can sell the stuff on the street
> (or to a fixer) at a much higher profit?
>

If my shadowteam wants to go around looking for buyers themselves, I have
no problem with it, but they might. Observe:

* First of all, I think the established fences aren't going to like it.
_When_ they get wind of a freelance group muscling in on their turf, I
think it would be worth a nasty phone call or even a hit on the offending
group. After all, they could be cutting into sales eventually...

* Then, anybody else who has an ear to the ground for the team might be
tipped off. This is especially true for the "hot loot" variety--or, if you
ask me, that APDS ammo that (in my games) is so hard to come by. A corp
will try plenty of funky things to get back at a team that hurt them, from
staging a false meet to tracking a true meet or tracing a call or sending
an astral watchdog after that business card they just left...

* Then, there's always the consideration that fences are good at fencing
because that's what they do. Just because a fence can find somebody to buy
hot stuff doesn't mean the team can--how many contacts has he raked up in
his years of buying and selling and laundering? A good fence doesn't just
go down to a dark alley and set up a card table with cyber prototypes and
hot ammo and guns and info and such. He has his contacts.

So basically what I'm sayiong is this: respect your fence. And if your
players don't, then make 'em suffer. <eGMg>

Jonathan Andrews

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fencing vs. Street Index
Date:	Tue, 5 May 1998 23:39:57 -0400

Message no. 5 Once upon a time, Joshua Bell wrote;

>what about this:
>
>"Optional" Runners get to multiply an item by its STREET INDEX, then they
>start at 30% of that and negotiate!

That would actually be proper. I have to admit I never dealt with
selling hot goods after runs so I never has to think about street values
and such. My runners were "above" those types of petty crimes or they had
other concerns to say the least.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Fencing vs. Street Index
Date:	Wed, 6 May 1998 12:36:30 +0100

Message no. 6 Joshua Bell said on 18:58/ 5 May 98...

> My Question is therefore:
>
> Where does the extra money go?

Into the fixer's pockets. They're in this to make money, and so they buy
stuff at a very low price then sell it on at the going rate (basic
economics, I'd have thought...).

> Look at this example... I will leave out negotiations tests to simplify, a
> runner team gets 100 rounds of APDS ammo. Instead of keeping it the sell
> it to a fence. APDS costs 70Y per 10 rounds and has a street index of 4.
> the runners in this case get 210Y and the fence gets 2800Y - 210Y = 2590Y

It says in SRII that the base rate is 30% of the item's _actual_value_,
not 30% of the list price. There's a big difference there, because what's
the item's actual value? That depends on where you buy and sell stuff, but
most of the time it'll be the price including street index.

> I know that this is overly simplistic, but I think that you get my drift...

You only looked at something that costs more on the street than in a
store. How about fencing an Ares Predator? Cost 450Y, SI 0.5. Using 30% of
the list price as the fixer's payment, you get 135Y for it, and the fixer
sells it on for 225Y. The fixer's profit is only 90Y. Taking street index
into account all along, we get 67.5Y for the runner, 225Y when selling it
on, profit = 157.5Y.

The bottom line is that for the highest profit margin, as a fixer you need
to include the SI for items where SI < 1, and don't add it for items with
SI > 1. However that could lead to unsatisfied customers, IMHO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
You're gonna like it, but not a lot.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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From:	Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Fencing vs. Street Index
Date:	Thu, 7 May 1998 03:00:49 -0500

Message no. 7 >
> Fencing vs. Street Index (Joshua Bell , Tue 17:58)

> what about this:
>
> "Optional" Runners get to multiply an item by its STREET INDEX, then they
> start at 30% of that and negotiate!
>
> (Please understand that this is mearly a sugestion and I don't know its
> effect on a real game because I just thought it up)

We've done that sometimes (when the GM feels genrous, and its an item
that can be sold quickly on the streets). It can be pretty profitable
(and fair) for thoings like stollen weapon foci, whic otherwise get
stored away until used by some team mage, pissing of the Samuria who
damn well KNOWS thier street price STARTS at 300K.
In fact, if you have a line on certain items LEGALLY, fencing them
ILLEGALLY can be a very profitable (but likely very illegal) source of
income. For example, the street index on cyanide is 5, and anybody with
a pest control permit and a little chemisty skill could churn the stuff
out. Ah, the beuty of fake ID's.

-Mongoose

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