Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Gurth <jweste%smtp@******.HZEELAND.NL>
Subject:	fetishes
Date:	Tue, 1 Mar 1994 19:55:51 +0100

Message no. 1 I think I started something here with the fetish-thing. So far, I've read
about as many messages claiming that fetishes are not present in astral
space, as messages that claim they are. I think they're not, anyway, but
it seems to me that nobody really knows the truth. The way I interpret
the rules is that fetishes only get into astral space when the mage or
shaman uses astral projection, unlike foci which are present on both
planes when they are activated.

Then of course there's the rejection thing. If they can implant cyberware
without it getting expelled by the body, they surely must be able to put
in a fetish (encase it in soemthing that doesn't get thrown out or
something). See Jane Foster in the Harlequin book, she had a spell lock
(OK, that's not a fetish but the idea's the same) in her thigh bone.

From:	Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: fetishes
Date:	Tue, 1 Mar 1994 15:18:33 -0500

Message no. 2 Fetishes are /NOT/ astrally active. They are not magical items of any sort.
They are merely a physical representation of a psychological crutch.

Fetish Foci /ARE/ astrally active. They are magical items, and they can be
grounded through.

|||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ||||
| Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/USER/ratinox |
| GAT d--@ -p+ c++ !l u+ e+(*) m-(+) s n---(+) h-- f !g(+) w+ t- r+ y+ |
| The only way to deal with temptation is to yield to it. --Oscar Wilde |
|||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ||||

From:	Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: fetishes
Date:	Tue, 1 Mar 1994 19:09:33 -0700

Message no. 3 >I think I started something here with the fetish-thing. So far, I've read
>about as many messages claiming that fetishes are not present in astral
>space, as messages that claim they are. I think they're not, anyway, but
>it seems to me that nobody really knows the truth. The way I interpret
>the rules is that fetishes only get into astral space when the mage or
>shaman uses astral projection, unlike foci which are present on both
>planes when they are activated.

Like RAT said, fetishes are not active - and the best argument for this is that
ANYONE can make a fetish if they have the skill, but only an active person can
make a focus.

>
>Then of course there's the rejection thing. If they can implant cyberware
>without it getting expelled by the body, they surely must be able to put
>in a fetish (encase it in soemthing that doesn't get thrown out or
>something). See Jane Foster in the Harlequin book, she had a spell lock
>(OK, that's not a fetish but the idea's the same) in her thigh bone.

Cyberware is protected and intergrated into your system, if you try o do the
protection to fetish - your going to just screw it up since it isn't the fetish
you need anymore.

Yes EHRAN did do that - but do you remember the description of EHRAN?!?!?!
It basically said - Ehran is REALLY POWERFUL he can do things in his sleep that
can't even imagine doing, let alone trying to do them.

BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
Daniel Waisley + SCA - March of Ered Sul - Flagstaff AZ
DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU + Nau fencing club.
"Nightfox" + Brotherhood of the Cryptic Demesne -household
BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
GE - d+(-) -p+@ c++(++++) !L u(--) e+(*) m+ s+/ !n+(-) h* f+ g+ w+++ t+ r+ y+
"infinity = zero" - Daniel Waisley "Nightfox"
BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!

From:	steven mancini <mancinis@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:	Re: fetishes
Date:	Sat, 5 Mar 1994 21:07:34 EST

Message no. 4 In response to Stainless Steel Rat:
]
] Fetish Foci /ARE/ astrally active. They are magical items, and they can be
] grounded through.
]
Woaaah Cowboy! Where did ya get this idea from? Are you saying
that they are always active so they can be ground through or
at that instant when the magician accesses their added power
they become a grounding source?

If you are advocating the former I wold have to call your bluff
and request a direct citation on this one... unless of course
this is merely IYHO...

Da Minotaur

From:	Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: fetishes
Date:	Sun, 6 Mar 1994 20:58:07 -0500

Message no. 5 >>>>> "sm" == steven mancini
<mancinis@******.cc.purdue.edu> writes:

sm> In response to Stainless Steel Rat:
>> Fetish Foci /ARE/ astrally active. They are magical items, and they can
>> be grounded through.
sm> Woaaah Cowboy! Where did ya get this idea from? Are you saying
sm> that they are always active so they can be ground through or at
sm> that instant when the magician accesses their added power they
sm> become a grounding source?

You are correct; I should have said that they are astrally active when
activated. During that instant they can be grounded through, just like any
other active focus.

|||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ||||
| Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/USER/ratinox |
| GAT d--@ -p+ c++ !l u+ e+(*) m-(+) s n---(+) h-- f !g(+) w+ t- r+ y+ |
| Always remember, no matter where you go, there you are. --Buckaroo Banzai |
|||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ||||

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Fetishes
Date:	Wed, 15 Feb 1995 11:32:36 +0100

Message no. 6 In our PBEM campaign, the question came up as to the exact effect of a
fetish. I (the GM) say that the fetish only adds 1 or 2 dice to the number
the magician rolls, and that the target resists the spell at the original
force -- that means if you cast a force 4 spell with an expendable fetish,
you roll 6 dice, but resists force 4 Drain, and your target also rolls
against a TN 4 to resist the spell.

One of my players, however, holds the following opinion:

>I asked my old GM about this, and he says that it's only Force 1 for the
>purposes of resisting Drain. In all other respects, including people's
>resisting it, it's Force 3. Rule book under Force Modifiers, Exclusive,
>Resusable, and Expendable fetishes I believe... He adds:
>____
>Magically, the spell starts at 1 with your energy drawn from the Astral
>plane, but then additional magic energies derived from the fetish/exclusive
>concentration boost the output of the spell to Force 3. Sort of like an
>op-amp.

Anyone have any clarifications? I feel you could explain the rules in the
book both ways...

Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Send cash now if you want to be saved! It's the church of funk!
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?

From:	Gregory Reade <readeg@***.GOV>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes
Date:	Wed, 15 Feb 1995 10:17:20 EST

Message no. 7 >Author: gurth@******.NL at unix-mail

>In our PBEM campaign, the question came up as to the exact effect of a
>fetish. I (the GM) say that the fetish only adds 1 or 2 dice to the number
>the magician rolls, and that the target resists the spell at the original
>force -- that means if you cast a force 4 spell with an expendable fetish,
>you roll 6 dice, but resists force 4 Drain, and your target also rolls
>against a TN 4 to resist the spell.

I've used the target resists VS. Force + Exclusive + Fetish formula, based
upon messages posted by Tom Dowd and Paul Hume on GEnie. I think there's
been quite a bit of discussion regarding it here and on Cyberpunk, so
perhaps its up to interpretation.

If you look at the section on Restricted Use Spells, SRII p.133, it says the
exclusive spell or fetish bonus increases the Force of the spell and its
effect but the mage resists drain versus the original force value. As a
target's resistance test is made versus the force of the spell, that would
be the higher, modified force- not the original force.

I think thats pretty clear, and it seems to make a lot more sense for the
restrictions of exclusive and fetish enhanced spells.

Gregory Reade

From:	pran r mukherjee <pran@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes
Date:	Wed, 15 Feb 1995 11:48:57 -0400

Message no. 8 On Wed, 15 Feb 1995, Gurth wrote:

> In our PBEM campaign, the question came up as to the exact effect of a
> fetish. I (the GM) say that the fetish only adds 1 or 2 dice to the number
> the magician rolls, and that the target resists the spell at the original
> force -- that means if you cast a force 4 spell with an expendable fetish,
> you roll 6 dice, but resists force 4 Drain, and your target also rolls
> against a TN 4 to resist the spell.
>
> One of my players, however, holds the following opinion:
>
> >I asked my old GM about this, and he says that it's only Force 1 for the
> >purposes of resisting Drain. In all other respects, including people's
> >resisting it, it's Force 3. Rule book under Force Modifiers, Exclusive,
> >Resusable, and Expendable fetishes I believe... He adds:
> >____
> >Magically, the spell starts at 1 with your energy drawn from the Astral
> >plane, but then additional magic energies derived from the fetish/exclusive
> >concentration boost the output of the spell to Force 3. Sort of like an
> >op-amp.
>
> Anyone have any clarifications? I feel you could explain the rules in the
> book both ways...
>
Your player is right. Fetishes add dice AND add to the effective force
of the spell, yet drain is done as though the fetish modifier weren't
there. The same applies to exclusivity. You could theoretically cast a
spell at force 10, and resist drain at force 6, while the target resisted
a force 10 spell. All you need is exclusivity and an expendible fetish.
Some GMs I've known have outlawed this combination, allowing at most
exclusivity and a reusable fetish.

From:	Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes
Date:	Thu, 16 Feb 1995 14:13:39 +0930

Message no. 9 >
> In our PBEM campaign, the question came up as to the exact effect of a
> fetish. I (the GM) say that the fetish only adds 1 or 2 dice to the number
> the magician rolls, and that the target resists the spell at the original
> force -- that means if you cast a force 4 spell with an expendable fetish,
> you roll 6 dice, but resists force 4 Drain, and your target also rolls
> against a TN 4 to resist the spell.
>
> One of my players, however, holds the following opinion:
>
> >I asked my old GM about this, and he says that it's only Force 1 for the
> >purposes of resisting Drain. In all other respects, including people's
> >resisting it, it's Force 3. Rule book under Force Modifiers, Exclusive,
> >Resusable, and Expendable fetishes I believe... He adds:
> >____
> >Magically, the spell starts at 1 with your energy drawn from the Astral
> >plane, but then additional magic energies derived from the fetish/exclusive
> >concentration boost the output of the spell to Force 3. Sort of like an
> >op-amp.
>
> Anyone have any clarifications? I feel you could explain the rules in the
> book both ways...
>

Fetishes add Force, for the purposes of resisting the effects, but you
resist Drain against the lower Force, so it's the second opinion that's
right. Although it doesn't explicitly state it in the rules for fetishes,
it does in the rules for Exclusive Spell, just above, and I think you're
meant to carry it on. The penalty here is that you NEED the fetish to cast
the spell. You also have to decide, at the time of learning, what the
fetish is going to be. You can't use any old fetish, only a specific thing
(for reusable fetishes), or a tight category of items (for reusable) ("What
do you mean this place doesn't sell Sagely's Lemon Fresh Car De-oderisers,
in the 3-month size pack???")

Fetish Foci just add dice... Maybe that's what you were thinking of.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Fetishes
Date:	Thu, 16 Feb 1995 11:52:39 +0100

Message no. 10 Thanks for the responses on the fetish question... Eve, you were right --
turns out I've been doing it wrong for years :)

Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Every time you shake someone's hand It determines where you stand
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?

From:	Gregory Reade <readeg@***.GOV>
Subject:	Fetishes
Date:	Thu, 16 Feb 1995 10:33:08 EST

Message no. 11 Text item: Text_1

Glad we settled the Force debate for fetishes.

On the same subject(fetishes) does anyone let a mage/shaman using
fetish restricted spells cast while in Astral?

I followed a discussion in which Tom Dowd said this shouldn't be
allowed- the fetish doesn't have an Astral presence.

Any comments?

Gregory Reade

From:	Chris McKinnon <cmckinno@********.CA>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes
Date:	Thu, 16 Feb 1995 18:47:14 -0400

Message no. 12 On Thu, 16 Feb 1995, Gregory Reade wrote:

> On the same subject(fetishes) does anyone let a mage/shaman using
> fetish restricted spells cast while in Astral?
>
> I followed a discussion in which Tom Dowd said this shouldn't be
> allowed- the fetish doesn't have an Astral presence.
>
If you look in the rulebook, page 146, you will note that it says (bottom
paragraph, left column), that:

"Astral images of the magician's fetishes and magical items accompany the
journey. Non-magical gear stays with the comatose body in the physical
world."

Now, as the fetish is non-magical, we have to assume that the magician's
mind, which uses the fetish as a kind of crutch, brings along the
non-magical fetish, because it is an innate part of his magical abilities.

My thoughts, anyway...

=============================================================================
Enigma = "Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun..."
Chris McKinnon = - Ash, Army of Darkness
cmckinno@********.ca =

From:	Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes
Date:	Sat, 18 Feb 1995 03:26:29 +0930

Message no. 13 >
> Text item: Text_1
>
> Glad we settled the Force debate for fetishes.
>
> On the same subject(fetishes) does anyone let a mage/shaman using
> fetish restricted spells cast while in Astral?
>
> I followed a discussion in which Tom Dowd said this shouldn't be
> allowed- the fetish doesn't have an Astral presence.
>
> Any comments?
>
You gotcha... Tom's right (of course :) ). In Astral space, you only carry
along those things with an Astral presence.

Of course... you could make one of your _exisiting_ foci a fetish. The
focus has an Astral presence, and so would be present with you. OTH, while
with normal Exclusive Fetishes, if you lose the fetish you can usually get
something like it, this isn't the case with foci. Even two foci made from
the same formula in the same way aren't really alike Astrally, so they
wouldn't be compatable for fetish purposes. What this means is that if some
one blows away the focus, you've lost access to that spell. Bummer, hey?

("What do you mean I can no longer cast my Force 10 Mana Ball??")

(Oh, BTW, anytime I do a quote like the above, I'm retelling something that
happened in one of my groups... I don't just make it up :) )

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.

From:	Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes
Date:	Fri, 17 Feb 1995 22:31:01 -0700

Message no. 14 On Thu, 16 Feb 1995, Gurth wrote:

> Thanks for the responses on the fetish question... Eve, you were right --
> turns out I've been doing it wrong for years :)

Damit I missed the whole thread. Can someone give me a short and sweet
answer on how they are used and by whom?

BTW got a new group starting up and have a minotaur by the name of Ludo
who is playing a rock shaman. Comments would be appreciated on the
subject of rocks as totems. Another player is doing a halfling physical
adept(chuckle). Other than that the rest are pretty mundane.

Laters Edge

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes
Date:	Sat, 18 Feb 1995 11:16:46 +0100

Message no. 15 >Damit I missed the whole thread. Can someone give me a short and sweet
>answer on how they are used and by whom?

The thread was about what a fetish actually adds to Force: I said it only
adds 2 dice to the number the mage gets to roll, while someone else said
they add 2 to the effective Force -- in other words, if you cast a Force 4
spell + expendable fetish, I said the target gets to resist a Force 4 spell,
but she said the target resists a Force 6 spell (hope this is understandable
:). It turned out I was wrong...

>BTW got a new group starting up and have a minotaur by the name of Ludo
>who is playing a rock shaman. Comments would be appreciated on the
>subject of rocks as totems.

Rocks as totems?? I wouldn't allow it for my players...

Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Every time you shake someone's hand It determines where you stand
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?

From:	LISETTE M THERIOT <psy_lmt@***.LAMAR.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes
Date:	Sat, 18 Feb 1995 15:09:14 -0600

Message no. 16 Sorry, but the way I understand it, your players right. Course, I'm a newbie, so
Twap at will.

From:	Chris <chris_hayes@*******.COM>
Subject:	Fetishes...
Date:	Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:47:20 -0800

Message no. 17 Okay, I've looked through the BBB, the Grimmy, and even Awakenings, and
I have yet to find a good explanation of how fetishes work. There was a
brief explanation in the Grimmy, but that explained Fetish foci. How do
reusable and expendable fetishes work? Also in the Grimmy (or maybe
Awakenings) it gave the cost of Fetish foci as being Rating X 3,000 =Y=, but
then in the description, it said you could only use it once. What's up with
that? I'm going to pay 15,000 nuyen for a fetish I can only use once? Not
on your life. But then it gives the price of expendable or reusable
fetishes of between 75 and 500 nuyen. What's the difference? Can anybody
help me on this?

Christopher Hayes
(Previously known as Jag, Wynter, Lupo, and a few other dead runners.)
chris_hayes@*******.com
(Still looking for a deep and thoughtful .sig, or one to just make you fall
out of your seat laughing.)

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:20:25 -0500

Message no. 18 Once upon a time, Chris wrote;

> Okay, I've looked through the BBB, the Grimmy, and even Awakenings, and
>I have yet to find a good explanation of how fetishes work. There was a
>brief explanation in the Grimmy, but that explained Fetish foci. How do
>reusable and expendable fetishes work? Also in the Grimmy (or maybe
>Awakenings) it gave the cost of Fetish foci as being Rating X 3,000 =Y=, but
>then in the description, it said you could only use it once. What's up with
>that? I'm going to pay 15,000 nuyen for a fetish I can only use once? Not
>on your life. But then it gives the price of expendable or reusable
>fetishes of between 75 and 500 nuyen. What's the difference? Can anybody
>help me on this?

Fetishes (reusable and expendable) are requirements to cast spells
when they are learned with that limitation. You can never cast a spell
with a fetish limitation with out it and you can never get a bonus from
using a fetish with a spell that does not require one. Reusable is just
that, every time you cast the spell which requires it the same Fetish can
be used. Expendable is yet again just that, the Fetish is consumed or
possibly just rendered inert (useful only as trinkets or in bluffs) so a
new Fetish is required for that spell to be cast again.
Fetish Focus is a distant cousin of Fetishes and Power Foci. The
Fetish Focus gives dice to be used in the whole spellcasting process like
the Power Focus except that 1) it's a one shot and 2) it will only work
for a group of spells (Manipulation, Illusion, Health, Combat, or
Detection). It can be used in conjunction with a Power Focus within the
standard limitations of dice allowance. And IIRC it will also fulfill any
fetish requirement a spell or Geasa might require.
I hope this explains their function and clears up and confusion the
shared name fetish creates.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"When _I_ use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful
tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
-Through the Looking Glass

I am MC23

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:23:54 +0100

Message no. 19 Chris said on 8:47/30 Mar 98...

> Okay, I've looked through the BBB, the Grimmy, and even Awakenings, and
> I have yet to find a good explanation of how fetishes work. There was a
> brief explanation in the Grimmy, but that explained Fetish foci. How do
> reusable and expendable fetishes work?

This is actually quite easy, but SRII isn't all that clear on it.

A reusable fetish adds one die to the number the caster rolls, and adds +1
to the TN to resist the spell (if it's resisted). Drain remains at the
original Force of the spell. An expendable fetish does the same, but adds
+2 instead of +1, and it vanishes when the spell is cast.

For example, when casting a Force 5 mana bolt, you normally roll 5 dice,
the target resists against a TN 5, and Drain is (5/2)S = 2S.
When casting that same spell with a reusable fetish, you roll 6 dice, the
target resists against a 6, but Drain is still (5/2)S = 2S.
With an expendable fetish, you roll 7 dice, the target resists against a
7, and the Drain is (5/2)S = 2S.

Note that you have to learn the spell as being fetish-required, so you
can't simply learn a spell as usual, then pick up a fetish and cast it
with one or two extra dice. You also can't cast the spell AT ALL if you
don't have the fetish handy.

> Also in the Grimmy (or maybe Awakenings) it gave the cost of Fetish foci
> as being Rating X 3,000 =Y=, but then in the description, it said you
> could only use it once. What's up with that? I'm going to pay 15,000
> nuyen for a fetish I can only use once? Not on your life. But then it
> gives the price of expendable or reusable fetishes of between 75 and 500
> nuyen. What's the difference? Can anybody help me on this?

A normal fetish (whether expendable or reusable) works as I described
above. A fetish focus (which was introduced in the Grimoire) works
differently: it's basically a one-shot spell focus (see SRII for that one)
that loses its enchantment when used. The advantage is that it can give a
lot more dice than a normal fetish can, and it can be used to resist
Drain, unlike a normal fetish. The higher cost reflects this, and to be
honest, for many shadowrunning magicians 15,000Y isn't a lot of money --
in my experience, magicians burn Karma but don't spend a lot of nuyen (for
street sams it's often the other way around).

Also, you can make your own fetish foci, at a cost of 0 nuyen and 1 Good
Karma (if you have Karma to spare, which IMO is unlikely for a magician,
but hey, the possibility is there).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Worried that I just might win.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:16:22 -0500

Message no. 20 For just a hairline split second, I thought this was about something other
than magic...

At 08:47 AM 3/30/98 -0800, you wrote:
> Okay, I've looked through the BBB, the Grimmy, and even Awakenings, and
>I have yet to find a good explanation of how fetishes work. There was a
>brief explanation in the Grimmy, but that explained Fetish foci. How do
>reusable and expendable fetishes work? Also in the Grimmy (or maybe
>Awakenings) it gave the cost of Fetish foci as being Rating X 3,000 =Y=, but
>then in the description, it said you could only use it once. What's up with
>that? I'm going to pay 15,000 nuyen for a fetish I can only use once? Not
>on your life. But then it gives the price of expendable or reusable
>fetishes of between 75 and 500 nuyen. What's the difference? Can anybody
>help me on this?

In magic theory, a fetish is a little bit like a geasa; it's something the
caster needs for this magic to work. A mental crutch the caster needs to
feel totally comfortable to cast the spell at maximum strength. Remember,
the rules in BBB and Grimmy about fetishes. If you incorporate the fetish
into your spell design, you can get a higher power spell (a Force 4
manabolt with an expendable fetish component is a Force 6 spell, though
only costs like it was Force 4). Unless I'm badly mistaken, you can still
cast spells without the fetish you need, but you won't get the benefits of
having it (in the above example, you could still cast the Force 4 manabolt,
but would need the expendable fetish to juice it up to Force 6).

Unlike most geasa, it has to be "repeated" for each spell you want to have
the fetish component.

This doesn't include the fetish geasa, which does require the use of
fetishes in all situations to maintain the geas.

An expendable fetish is just that, expendable. Use and the power is gone.
We can debate whether the power of the fetish is really truly gone after
being used or if it is merely psychological, but I don't think the answer
for that is in the rules. Play it how you like it I say.

A reusable fetish is just like the expendable one, but it can be used over
and over again. Many of these fetishes are jewelry it seems like, since
they would be able to last longer than a potion or something, not to
mention a lot easier to carry around.

Unless I'm mistaken, fetishes do carry a slight magical charge (as in they
will look different on the astral), but exactly what that charge is and
what it is for isn't clear. It could be a byproduct of the
enchantment/refinement process, it could be that extra juice that helps
power the spell, it could be something else entirely. I'm not really sure.
Again, play it how you like it say I.

As for the Fetish Foci...I can't help you there. I don't recall what it
does off the top of my head and I don't have my books here. Never found
the need to really look into them that much since I rarely have PCs that
use fetishes...they may have fetishes, but they don't use them...;-)

Erik J.

"Oh, the silent helicopters and the men in black fatigues? They're just my
car pool to work."

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:48:23 -0500

Message no. 21 Once upon a time, Erik Jameson wrote;

>Unless I'm badly mistaken, you can still
>cast spells without the fetish you need, but you won't get the benefits of
>having it (in the above example, you could still cast the Force 4 manabolt,
>but would need the expendable fetish to juice it up to Force 6).

You are badly mistaken. Any spell which is learned with the fetish
requirement will always need that fetish to work and whether that fetish
is expendable or not is also important. If your death spell needs a
pocket full of posies Expendable Fetish to work then your lucky necklace
Reusable Fetish won't work for it.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:46:30 -0600

Message no. 22 ----------
> From: Chris <chris_hayes@*******.COM>
> Okay, I've looked through the BBB, the Grimmy, and even Awakenings, and
> I have yet to find a good explanation of how fetishes work.

IMU, a fetish is used with a fetish required spell. Basically, when the mage
learns a spell, he decides if he wants it to be fetish required or not. If he
chooses to have it expendable fetish required, he learns it as two points lower
than it actually is (he can cast it as a force 6 spell, but he only needs to
pay karma and money for a force 4 spell). Reusable fetish spells are learned
at one point lower.

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:04:03 -0500

Message no. 23 At 08:23 PM 3/30/98 +0100, you wrote:

>Note that you have to learn the spell as being fetish-required, so you
>can't simply learn a spell as usual, then pick up a fetish and cast it
>with one or two extra dice. You also can't cast the spell AT ALL if you
>don't have the fetish handy.

You know, I don't remember that last part. I thought that a fetish spell
could still be cast, but not at the fetish enhanced power level. What you
and MC23 are describing sound more like geasa to me; but like I said
before, I haven't had much use for fetishes so that part of my magic
knowledge could be very rusty.

Since my books are about, oh, 9 or 10 hours away (work, commute, boxing),
could someone dig this up and reference a page number, one way or another?

Thanks,

Erik J.

"What was that popping sound?"

"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:40:34 -0500

Message no. 24 Once upon a time, Erik Jameson wrote;

>Since my books are about, oh, 9 or 10 hours away (work, commute, boxing),
>could someone dig this up and reference a page number, one way or another?

SR2 p.133 Restricted Use Spells
"If the magician wants to know the spell with different options, he must
learn it all over again, at which point he will know both versions of the
spell." which refers the choice between exclusive and fetish. It also
talks about the fact that this is a limitation on spellcasting and as the
title reflects the fact that Fetish and Exclusive spells are restrictive.
Having the choice of not using these limitations is not limitation at all.

and for those who don't ignore earlier rules
SR1 first edition, p.151
"Once a Force modifier is chosen for a spell, it applies to that spell
permanently."

>Thanks,

you're welcome.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:24:07 -0500

Message no. 25 Hmm...well, I'll have to look at my books for myself (just to satisfy my
own innate skepticism), but I think I can concede defeat on this point.

Damn.

<wipes egg off face>

Must have been remembering a house rule variant I picked up on years ago
and have just kept using it without bothering to check the rules. I find
myself doing that now and again; side affect of playing SR for well over
seven years I suppose (like some others on the list, I even occasionally
lapse into SR1 on *rare* occasions). Jeez, suddenly I feel very old; I
just realized I've been playing RPGs of some sort for about 15 years
now...and I'm only 25! You know, I really don't want to know how much
money and how many hours I've sunk into the pass time over those last 15
years...I'd probably choke.

Oh well.

Next question?

Erik J.

"What was that popping sound?"

"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."

From:	Wyrmy The powerful <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:35:34 -0600

Message no. 26 Chris wrote:
>
> Okay, I've looked through the BBB, the Grimmy, and even Awakenings, and
> I have yet to find a good explanation of how fetishes work.
I always thought a Fetish worked by allowing a mage to channel more
magic through himself than he would be able to Take without damaging
himself.The difference between an expendable fetish and Reusable is the
fact that The reusable is sturdier and can take more energy than a
expendable(think of different watt fuses.The one with lower power burns
out sooner than the Higher one).
--
If you are a dreamer come in,
If you are a dreeamer, a wisher,
A liar, a magic jelly bean buyer,
Come In!
-What should be the motto of all internet users.

From:	The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:50:34 PST

Message no. 27 >At 08:23 PM 3/30/98 +0100, you wrote:
>
>>Note that you have to learn the spell as being fetish-required, so you
>>can't simply learn a spell as usual, then pick up a fetish and cast it
>>with one or two extra dice. You also can't cast the spell AT ALL if
you
>>don't have the fetish handy.
>
>You know, I don't remember that last part. I thought that a fetish
spell
>could still be cast, but not at the fetish enhanced power level.

Nope. McTwenty-Three is right.

What you
>and MC23 are describing sound more like geasa to me; but like I said
>before, I haven't had much use for fetishes so that part of my magic
>knowledge could be very rusty.

You also failed to mention that an expendible fetish increases the
force by two, while a reusable one only increases the force by one.

>
>Since my books are about, oh, 9 or 10 hours away (work, commute,
boxing),
>could someone dig this up and reference a page number, one way or
another?

p. 133, BBB under "Spell restrictions"(of all places). If you'd
like, I'll type it up and post it. But you have to ask nicely. :)

-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"What, drawn, and talk of peace! I
hate the word
As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee..."
-Shakespeare, Romeo & Juliet(Act I, scene I)

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes... -Reply
Date:	Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:36:41 -0500

Message no. 28 >I always thought a Fetish worked by allowing a mage to channel more
>magic through himself than he would be able to Take without
>damaging himself.

No, that's a focus.

Double-Domed Mike

From:	Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:48:07 +1000

Message no. 29 Erik Jameson writes:
>Hmm...well, I'll have to look at my books for myself (just to satisfy my
>own innate skepticism), but I think I can concede defeat on this point.

Erik, you may have been thinking of Fetish _foci_... which can be used for
one-off bonus dice.

>Must have been remembering a house rule variant I picked up on years ago
>and have just kept using it without bothering to check the rules. I find
>myself doing that now and again; side affect of playing SR for well over
>seven years I suppose (like some others on the list, I even occasionally
>lapse into SR1 on *rare* occasions). Jeez, suddenly I feel very old; I
>just realized I've been playing RPGs of some sort for about 15 years
>now...and I'm only 25! You know, I really don't want to know how much
>money and how many hours I've sunk into the pass time over those last 15
>years...I'd probably choke.

*chuckle* Heck, I've been playing RPGs for about 15 years too, and I'm only
23. :) And I know how much money I've sunk into RPGs (I assessed it at $3000
for replacement costs for insurance purposes... but that ignores the stuff
I've since sold (like my first ed AD&D), and the stuff I've replaced because
it wore out (like, um... my (earlier) first ed AD&D)), and the stuff that I
didn't bother replacing (like, um... my boxed sets of D&D)). Ouch. Now I
know why I don't buy any T$R stuff anymore.

(OTH, I've been mucking around with computers for almost 19 years now... And
I've sunk at least $7000 into that. Add another $8000 if you count my degree
(Bachelor Comp Sci) as well).

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons robert.watkins@******.com

From:	Wyrmy The powerful <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes... -Reply
Date:	Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:54:59 -0600

Message no. 30 > No, that's a focus.

Damn,your right.Just one question.Say Your a shaman who as uses a pouch
of herbs as an expendable fetish, uses it.Does the Bag and herbs
disapear,or does just the herbs?Just like the Hermetic potion.
--
If you are a dreamer come in,
If you are a dreeamer, a wisher,
A liar, a magic jelly bean buyer,
Come In!
-What should be the motto of all internet users.

From:	Geoff Skellams <geoff.skellams@*********.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes... -Reply
Date:	Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:06:07 +1000

Message no. 31 On Shadowrun Discussion, Wyrmy The powerful[SMTP:elfman@*****.NET]
wrote:
> Damn,your right.Just one question.Say Your a shaman who as uses a
pouch
> of herbs as an expendable fetish, uses it.Does the Bag and herbs
> disapear,or does just the herbs?Just like the Hermetic potion.

I would say that it would be just the herbs that disappear - i.e. the
shaman would burn them. The pouch is just the means to carry the
medicine bundle. I know a Amerindian shaman who burns sage and tobacco
in smudging ceremonies. I would say that a SR shaman would do something
similar - the smoke carries the prayer to wherever it needs to go.

Geoff

--
Geoff Skellams R&D - Tower Software
Email Address: geoff.skellams@*********.com.au
Homepage: http://www.towersoft.com.au/staff/geoff/
ICQ Number: 2815165

"The Stoat - pound for pound the most dangerous creature on the face of
the planet"
- Chris Irwin, spouting crap during "Over Port & Cigars..."

From:	Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes... -Reply
Date:	Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:11:50 +1000

Message no. 32 Wyrmy writes:
>> No, that's a focus.
>
>Damn,your right.Just one question.Say Your a shaman who as uses a pouch
>of herbs as an expendable fetish, uses it.Does the Bag and herbs
>disapear,or does just the herbs?Just like the Hermetic potion.

The bag wouldn't be the fetish, the herbs in the bag would be. During the
casting of the spell, the shaman would upend the bag, spilling the herbs or
something (if you really wanted to use the _bag_ of herbs as the fetish,
maybe the shaman would rip the bag or something).

The fetish doesn't just "disappear". As a part of the casting of the spell,
the magician does something to the fetish to make it no longer suitable as a
fetish (eg, breaks it, tears it apart, scatters it to the four winds, etc).
Note also that if the fetish could be repaired, the magician would be able
to repair and reuse it (after a suitable Enchanting test, of course).

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons robert.watkins@******.com

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:20:53 -0500

Message no. 33 At 01:50 PM 3/30/98 PST, you wrote:

> What you
>>and MC23 are describing sound more like geasa to me; but like I said
>>before, I haven't had much use for fetishes so that part of my magic
>>knowledge could be very rusty.
>
> You also failed to mention that an expendable fetish increases the
>force by two, while a reusable one only increases the force by one.

Oh, I figured since he had read the rules he knew that part, he was just
curious as to how they work in game world mechanics.

>>Since my books are about, oh, 9 or 10 hours away (work, commute,
>boxing),
>>could someone dig this up and reference a page number, one way or
>another?
>
> p. 133, BBB under "Spell restrictions"(of all places). If you'd
>like, I'll type it up and post it. But you have to ask nicely. :)

Hey now, I can smell sarcasm when it's being shoveled...;-)

Okay, okay, I believe you. But I'm still going to check the Big Black Book
because I'm just so damn idiotically skeptical. Just the way I am, don't
bother trying to change me hey get away from me with those drugs and shock
sticks I didn't do anything to deserve

We now return you to your regularly scheduled, less skeptical mailing list.

"Oh, the silent helicopters and the men in black fatigues? They're just my
car pool to work."

From:	Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:39:47 -0500

Message no. 34 >Say Your a shaman who as uses a pouch of herbs as an expendable
>fetish, uses it.Does the Bag and herbs disapear,or does just the
>herbs?Just like the Hermetic potion.

The rules don't say, but I'd say neither. To use the bag of herbs, you
reach in, grab a handful and sprinkle them over your injured teammate or
throw them at your enemy, or whatever. They fall to the ground, like
herbs do. The difference is that before, a magically active character
could tell they were special (gathered from pristine places, etc) and
now a magically active character can tell that they are just leaves. They
can't explain how the difference feels, anymore than you can explain
"blue" to a blind man. The herbs just aint blue anymore, dude.

Double-Domed Mike

From:	Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:41:02 -0500

Message no. 35 >I would say that it would be just the herbs that disappear - i.e. the
>shaman would burn them.

Burn them, of course, why didn't I mention that (kicking myself)?

Double-Domed Mike

From:	Geoff Skellams <geoff.skellams@*********.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:05:56 +1000

Message no. 36 On Shadowrun Discussion, Mike Elkins[SMTP:MikeE@*********.COM] wrote:
> >I would say that it would be just the herbs that disappear - i.e. the
> >shaman would burn them.
>
> Burn them, of course, why didn't I mention that (kicking myself)?

Possibly because you have never seen a real shaman do his thing
:). According to the shamanic beliefs of (some of the) Amerindians,
smoke is a purifier, which helps to carry away any negativity that is
causing problems (or stopping the body from healing itself naturally).
Instead of sprinkling them over a person, the shaman could also
mix the herbs up into some form of medicine the subject could drink, or
mix them into a salve or poultice to apply to the wound. IMHO,
sprinkling them over a person is something a shaman would NEVER do.
Shamanic magic works by convincing the "low self" (for want of a better
term) that it wants to heal itself. As my friend once said, a good chunk
of shamanic medicine is smoke and mirrors - it's all about helping the
subject break through the mental barriers which are stopping the body
from healing itself. By doing something impressive, like smudging
someone with smoke, rubbing in a salve or having them drink some sort of
medicine. Sprinkling them with herbs just wouldn't have enough of an
impact on the subconscious level of the recipient.
You might think that smudging with smoke might not have much of
an effect either, but I know from personal experience that it does shift
something. It may well be the aromatherapy effects of the fragrant smoke
(have you ever smelled smouldering sage?), but it does help you to
relax. When you combine that with the rhythm of a shamanic rattle (which
would be a perfect reusable fetish for a shaman, as would a small drum),
you can get some very strange things happening.

cheers
Geoff
--
Geoff Skellams R&D - Tower Software
Email Address: geoff.skellams@*********.com.au
Homepage: http://www.towersoft.com.au/staff/geoff/
ICQ Number: 2815165

"The Stoat - pound for pound the most dangerous creature on the face of
the planet"
- Chris Irwin, spouting crap during "Over Port & Cigars..."

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:36:24 +0100

Message no. 37 MC23 said on 14:48/30 Mar 98...

> You are badly mistaken. Any spell which is learned with the fetish
> requirement will always need that fetish to work and whether that fetish
> is expendable or not is also important. If your death spell needs a
> pocket full of posies Expendable Fetish to work then your lucky necklace
> Reusable Fetish won't work for it.

That, unfortunately, is one bit that SRII is very unclear about. It
doesn't actually _say_ that you can't substitute one fetish for another,
as long as they're for the same class of spell (for example, using an oak
twig (expendable health spell fetish) in place of a handfull of grass
(another expendable health spell fetish)). I always want players to
describe (in a few words) the fetish required for a spell, so that there
is no confusion over this. Also it gives them a better idea of what
they're actually using to cast the spell.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Worried that I just might win.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes... -Reply
Date:	Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:36:24 +0100

Message no. 38 Mike Elkins said on 18:36/30 Mar 98...

> >I always thought a Fetish worked by allowing a mage to channel more
> >magic through himself than he would be able to Take without
> >damaging himself.
>
> No, that's a focus.

Depends on how you look at it. A fetish does much the same as a focus, but
in a slightly different way -- you can cast more powerful spells but don't
suffer from the higher Drain. With a power focus, you resist the full
Drain but it won't be physical.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Worried that I just might win.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes... -Reply
Date:	Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:36:24 +0100

Message no. 39 Wyrmy The powerful said on 17:54/30 Mar 98...

> Damn,your right.Just one question.Say Your a shaman who as uses a pouch
> of herbs as an expendable fetish, uses it.Does the Bag and herbs
> disapear,or does just the herbs?Just like the Hermetic potion.

Depends on what the fetish is: is it a pouch full of herbs, or is it just
the herbs? In the first case, the whole pouch disappears, in the second
case the herbs are gone after the spell is cast, but the pouch remains.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Worried that I just might win.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:14:37 EST

Message no. 40 In a message dated 98-03-30 12:21:59 EST, you write:

> Fetish Focus is a distant cousin of Fetishes and Power Foci. The
> Fetish Focus gives dice to be used in the whole spellcasting process like
> the Power Focus except that 1) it's a one shot and 2) it will only work
> for a group of spells (Manipulation, Illusion, Health, Combat, or
> Detection). It can be used in conjunction with a Power Focus within the
> standard limitations of dice allowance. And IIRC it will also fulfill any
> fetish requirement a spell or Geasa might require.

Umm, Fetish Foci are something most mages would not even consider, considering
their bonding cost (Twice Rating in Karma) and that they are one shot makes
them somewhat of a dum (sorry) idea for most mages.

However, the Fetish Foci could be used as the basis for research into a
Reusable Fetish Foci, which does the same thing but does go bye-bye after each
use. And I could see the karmic bonding cost as being Three Times the Rating.

Mike

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:40:55 +0000

Message no. 41 > Umm, Fetish Foci are something most mages would not even consider, considering
> their bonding cost (Twice Rating in Karma) and that they are one shot makes
> them somewhat of a dum (sorry) idea for most mages.

Say what? Fetish Foci have NO bonding cost. The only time they cost
Karma is if you are the one enchanting them in the first place.

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie

From:	Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes... -Reply
Date:	Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:11:20 -0600

Message no. 42 > Mike Elkins said on 18:36/30 Mar 98...
>
> > >I always thought a Fetish worked by allowing a mage to channel more
> > >magic through himself than he would be able to Take without
> > >damaging himself.
> >
> Depends on how you look at it. A fetish does much the same as a focus, but
> in a slightly different way -- you can cast more powerful spells but don't
> suffer from the higher Drain. With a power focus, you resist the full
> Drain but it won't be physical.

For those of you who also play Earthdawn, it might be easiest to think of a
fetish like a physical spell matrix. It channels part of the power of astral
space, lessening your exposure to it and therefore the amount of energy you
have to channel through yourself.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
************
Only after the last tree has been cut down, Only after the last river has been
poisoned, Only after the last fish has been caught, Only then will you find
that money cannot be eaten.
- Cree Indian Prophecy
***********
Am Moireach Mor!

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:18:23 +0100

Message no. 43 And verily, did Chris hastily scribble thusly...
|
| Okay, I've looked through the BBB, the Grimmy, and even Awakenings, and
|I have yet to find a good explanation of how fetishes work.

The explaination given, i.e. that they're psychological crutches, works for
me. There's nothing magical about them, it's just the belief of the magic
user himself that imposes the bonuses and penalties...

There was a
|brief explanation in the Grimmy, but that explained Fetish foci.

That *is* slightly different, in that it's enchanted....

How do
|reusable and expendable fetishes work? Also in the Grimmy (or maybe
|Awakenings) it gave the cost of Fetish foci as being Rating X 3,000 =Y=, but
|then in the description, it said you could only use it once. What's up with
|that? I'm going to pay 15,000 nuyen for a fetish I can only use once?

THINK ABOUT IT!
The fetish focus is one sick motherf***er. You buy a level 4 fetish focus
for combat spells. You cast a fireball WITH that fetish focus.
What that means is, you get all the dice you'd normally get, PLUS (unless
this changed in 2nd Ed, but at that cost, I don't think it did) 4 AUTOMATIC
SUCCESSES in the spell test...

Not
|on your life. But then it gives the price of expendable or reusable
|fetishes of between 75 and 500 nuyen. What's the difference? Can anybody
|help me on this?

The expendable fetish gives 2 bonus dice.
The re-0useable fetish gives 1 bonus dice, but can be used as many time as
you want.
The Fetish focus CREATES its force rating in AUTO SUCCESSES.

THAT, is the difference.
They're emergency "get the frag out of this situation free cards"
effectively.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:46:45 +0000

Message no. 44 > How do
> |reusable and expendable fetishes work? Also in the Grimmy (or maybe
> |Awakenings) it gave the cost of Fetish foci as being Rating X 3,000 =Y=, but
> |then in the description, it said you could only use it once. What's up with
> |that? I'm going to pay 15,000 nuyen for a fetish I can only use once?
>
> THINK ABOUT IT!
> The fetish focus is one sick motherf***er. You buy a level 4 fetish focus
> for combat spells. You cast a fireball WITH that fetish focus.
> What that means is, you get all the dice you'd normally get, PLUS (unless
> this changed in 2nd Ed, but at that cost, I don't think it did) 4 AUTOMATIC
> SUCCESSES in the spell test...
>

It did. 2nd ed. has no auto-successes. You'd get 4 Extra die in
this instance.

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:43:00 +0100

Message no. 45 And verily, did Airwasp hastily scribble thusly...
|
|In a message dated 98-03-30 12:21:59 EST, you write:
|
|> Fetish Focus is a distant cousin of Fetishes and Power Foci. The
|> Fetish Focus gives dice to be used in the whole spellcasting process like
|> the Power Focus except that 1) it's a one shot and 2) it will only work
|> for a group of spells (Manipulation, Illusion, Health, Combat, or
|> Detection). It can be used in conjunction with a Power Focus within the
|> standard limitations of dice allowance. And IIRC it will also fulfill any
|> fetish requirement a spell or Geasa might require.
|
|Umm, Fetish Foci are something most mages would not even consider, considering
|their bonding cost (Twice Rating in Karma) and that they are one shot makes
|them somewhat of a dum (sorry) idea for most mages.

Bonding cost? Am I missing something here?
I don't recall any bonding cost for fetish foci....
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:47:04 +0100

Message no. 46 And verily, did Brett Borger hastily scribble thusly...
|> THINK ABOUT IT!
|> The fetish focus is one sick motherf***er. You buy a level 4 fetish focus
|> for combat spells. You cast a fireball WITH that fetish focus.
|> What that means is, you get all the dice you'd normally get, PLUS (unless
|> this changed in 2nd Ed, but at that cost, I don't think it did) 4 AUTOMATIC
|> SUCCESSES in the spell test...
|>
|
|It did. 2nd ed. has no auto-successes. You'd get 4 Extra die in
|this instance.

Darn! I thought there were still a few exceptions.
Well.... Actually, there is at least one exception...
Burning Karma. I thought the fetish focus was another....
Never mind...
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:53:04 -0500

Message no. 47 Once upon a time, Gurth wrote;

>MC23 said on 14:48/30 Mar 98...
>
>> You are badly mistaken. Any spell which is learned with the fetish
>> requirement will always need that fetish to work and whether that fetish
>> is expendable or not is also important. If your death spell needs a
>> pocket full of posies Expendable Fetish to work then your lucky necklace
>> Reusable Fetish won't work for it.
>
>That, unfortunately, is one bit that SRII is very unclear about. It
>doesn't actually _say_ that you can't substitute one fetish for another,
>as long as they're for the same class of spell (for example, using an oak
>twig (expendable health spell fetish) in place of a handfull of grass
>(another expendable health spell fetish)). I always want players to
>describe (in a few words) the fetish required for a spell, so that there
>is no confusion over this. Also it gives them a better idea of what
>they're actually using to cast the spell.

I agree with you on all counts. Because the rules didn't outright
say one expendible fetish can't be used for another for spells I didn't
use that for my example.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:55:52 -0500

Message no. 48 Once upon a time, Spike wrote;

>The explaination given, i.e. that they're psychological crutches, works for
>me. There's nothing magical about them, it's just the belief of the magic
>user himself that imposes the bonuses and penalties...

They are the weakest of magical raw materials. You still have to go
to a Talsimonger to get one instead of the local convience store.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:00:22 -0500

Message no. 49 Once upon a time, Airwasp wrote;

>Umm, Fetish Foci are something most mages would not even consider,
>considering their bonding cost (Twice Rating in Karma) and that they are
>one shot makes them somewhat of a dum (sorry) idea for most mages.

No bonding cost. I normally only use them for starting characters
since experienced characters should need them a lot less. We also don't
like playing with crutches or limitations on our mages here. We're too
paranoid of not being able to do something we need to do. B>]#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Fetishes...
Date:	Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:03:36 -0500

Message no. 50 Once upon a time, Spike wrote;

>Darn! I thought there were still a few exceptions.
>Well.... Actually, there is at least one exception...
>Burning Karma. I thought the fetish focus was another....
>Never mind...

Nope, they removed that just so you'd be wrong again. B>]#

There's the old GM wants it he gets it rule or the EI can do what ever
they want rule.

-MC23, who is hearing the moans and death threats now-

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

Message no. 51 And verily, did MC23 hastily scribble thusly...
|
|Once upon a time, Spike wrote;
|
|>The explaination given, i.e. that they're psychological crutches, works for
|>me. There's nothing magical about them, it's just the belief of the magic
|>user himself that imposes the bonuses and penalties...
|
| They are the weakest of magical raw materials. You still have to go
|to a Talsimonger to get one instead of the local convience store.

That only reinforces the crutch.
Astrally viewing a fetish will reveal it to be purely mundane.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

Message no. 52 At 10:55 AM 3/31/98 -0500, MC23 wrote:
>Once upon a time, Spike wrote;
>
>>The explaination given, i.e. that they're psychological crutches, works for
>>me. There's nothing magical about them, it's just the belief of the magic
>>user himself that imposes the bonuses and penalties...
>
> They are the weakest of magical raw materials. You still have to go
>to a Talsimonger to get one instead of the local convience store.

True, fetishes do need to go through an "enchantment" process. But there
isn't a karma cost for making a fetish (like there is for foci), it's all
about the preparation time and effort. Without being invested with karma
energy, fetishes aren't even really enchanted items. Rather they are
(usually) specially prepared and purified items, having gone through
special rituals that may or may not actually invest them with some sort of
magical energy. It is *possible* for the magician to make those cheesy
poofs you buy at the local Stuffer Shack into an expendable fetish. And I
doubt that those cheesy poofs were specially prepared by a talismonger.

Fetishes are one of the things least explained in SR2 magic. Yes, we know
the basic rules about them (unless we have a brain fart and forget), but
that's about it. As near as I can tell, if cheesy poofs are your choice
for an expendable fetish, then you can do that. Or if you decided that
specially purified and "enchanted" water from Mono Lake is to be your
expendable fetish, that's fine too. And what about your reusable fetishes?
Again, as near as I can tell that can be anything from a fetish bought
specially from a talismonger to the tattered blue blanky the PC has carried
around since childhood that *hasn't* been specially prepared.

Right now, based on the current evidence, I have to think that a fetish is
really nothing more than a magical crutch and not even close to resembling
an ED spell matrix (at least in in-game mechanics). It's one of those
things that allows the magician to believe he can cast a better spell; and
isn't belief (of some sort or another) a major part of spellcasting? We
know that spellcasting is almost totally a mental thing; disrupt that fine
mental balance by taking about that blue blanky or that special magical
dust and you disrupt the relatively delicate mind frame needed to cast a
spell.

Unless SR3 has a better explanation, I've got to go with a fetish being a
mental crutch for the magician.

Erik J.

Message no. 53 Once upon a time, Erik Jameson wrote;

>True, fetishes do need to go through an "enchantment" process. But there
>isn't a karma cost for making a fetish (like there is for foci), it's all
>about the preparation time and effort. Without being invested with karma
>energy, fetishes aren't even really enchanted items. Rather they are
>(usually) specially prepared and purified items, having gone through
>special rituals that may or may not actually invest them with some sort of
>magical energy. It is *possible* for the magician to make those cheesy
>poofs you buy at the local Stuffer Shack into an expendable fetish. And I
>doubt that those cheesy poofs were specially prepared by a talismonger.
>
>Fetishes are one of the things least explained in SR2 magic. Yes, we know
>the basic rules about them (unless we have a brain fart and forget), but
>that's about it. As near as I can tell, if cheesy poofs are your choice
>for an expendable fetish, then you can do that. Or if you decided that
>specially purified and "enchanted" water from Mono Lake is to be your
>expendable fetish, that's fine too. And what about your reusable fetishes?
> Again, as near as I can tell that can be anything from a fetish bought
>specially from a talismonger to the tattered blue blanky the PC has carried
>around since childhood that *hasn't* been specially prepared.
>
>Right now, based on the current evidence, I have to think that a fetish is
>really nothing more than a magical crutch and not even close to resembling
>an ED spell matrix (at least in in-game mechanics). It's one of those
>things that allows the magician to believe he can cast a better spell; and
>isn't belief (of some sort or another) a major part of spellcasting? We
>know that spellcasting is almost totally a mental thing; disrupt that fine
>mental balance by taking about that blue blanky or that special magical
>dust and you disrupt the relatively delicate mind frame needed to cast a
>spell.

Let's see if those cheesy poofs ran about 5 to 50 nuyen (which is
about 5 to 50 US Dollars) than you can even start to make a physical
comparison and that's just for expendable fetishes. Fetishes are not an
off the shelf stock item nor has it even been suggested that they can be
acquired through any means other than Talsimongers or the magician
preparing them himself. If the magician buys those same cheesy poofs off
the shelf he would still have to prepare them through the rules of
enchantment (and explaining away the rest of the costs involved). After
that process they are no longer cheesy poofs but the magical Fetish
desired, enchanted without Karma but enchanted none the less.
And items do not need to be empowered by Karma to have a noticeable
significance on the Astral plane. Fetishes, as well as items like a
Samurai's favorite gun, has a more complex discernible aura that can be
read.

>Unless SR3 has a better explanation, I've got to go with a fetish being a
>mental crutch for the magician.

There is no such thing as a mental crutch in Shadowrun (or more
importantly a rule for one). It is not a mental crutch first of all
because it cannot be overcome or ignored even with penalties (which would
make it a physical crutch) and secondly because belief shapes magic,
therefore the fetish has become part of the laws of magic and not just
some person focusing technique.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

Message no. 54 > >Unless SR3 has a better explanation, I've got to go with a fetish being a
> >mental crutch for the magician.
>
> There is no such thing as a mental crutch in Shadowrun (or more
> importantly a rule for one). It is not a mental crutch first of all
> because it cannot be overcome or ignored even with penalties (which would
> make it a physical crutch) and secondly because belief shapes magic,
> therefore the fetish has become part of the laws of magic and not just
> some person focusing technique.

I have to agree with MC23 here. If fetishes were a mental crutch, it
stands to reason that over time, you could get rid of this mental crutch,
and the cast a force 8 hellblast but only take force 6 drain at anytime you
want. Gurth worte that fetishes are similar to spell matrices in Earthdawn
(if you believe in the crossover stuff). I would definitely agree.
Fetishes are magically powered items that allow you to cast higher level
spells than you normally could. It is not a belief (or a self-imposed
mental limitation) that if I don't have the fetish I can't cast the spell,
it's a magically altered fact that a magician takes upon himself at the time
that he learns the spell.

Christopher Hayes

(Previously known as Jag, Wynter, Lupo, and a few other dead runners.)
chris_hayes@*******.com
(Still looking for a deep and thoughtful .sig, or one to just make you fall
out of your seat laughing.)

Message no. 55 In a message dated 98-03-31 10:43:50 EST, you write:

> |> Fetish Focus is a distant cousin of Fetishes and Power Foci. The
> |> Fetish Focus gives dice to be used in the whole spellcasting process
> like
> |> the Power Focus except that 1) it's a one shot and 2) it will only work
> |> for a group of spells (Manipulation, Illusion, Health, Combat, or
> |> Detection). It can be used in conjunction with a Power Focus within the
> |> standard limitations of dice allowance. And IIRC it will also fulfill
> any
> |> fetish requirement a spell or Geasa might require.
> |
> |Umm, Fetish Foci are something most mages would not even consider,
> considering
> |their bonding cost (Twice Rating in Karma) and that they are one shot
makes
> |them somewhat of a dum (sorry) idea for most mages.
>
> Bonding cost? Am I missing something here?
> I don't recall any bonding cost for fetish foci....

I stand corrected, there is no bonding cost for them, there is karma involved
however in the making of a fetish foci however, and quite frankly the idea of
a fetish foci is something I just don't like.

Mike

P.S. Anyone ever consider making stacked fetishes ? This way you have one
fetish that is good for any two or three categories (or even all of them) of
spells.

Message no. 56 At 10:56 AM 3/31/98 -0800, you wrote:

> I have to agree with MC23 here. If fetishes were a mental crutch, it
>stands to reason that over time, you could get rid of this mental crutch,
>and the cast a force 8 hellblast but only take force 6 drain at anytime you
>want. Gurth worte that fetishes are similar to spell matrices in Earthdawn
>(if you believe in the crossover stuff). I would definitely agree.
>Fetishes are magically powered items that allow you to cast higher level
>spells than you normally could. It is not a belief (or a self-imposed
>mental limitation) that if I don't have the fetish I can't cast the spell,
>it's a magically altered fact that a magician takes upon himself at the time
>that he learns the spell.

No, a fetish is a crutch that *cannot* be overcome. Remember, it's a part
of the spell forumula. The fetish is a required piece of the spell (which
MC23 reminded me of yesterday) that cannot be taken away; it's a physical
component of the spell. And as the spell was designed to use the fetish,
it can't be used without it. So no, you won't have your Force 8 hellblast
only taking Force 6 drain without the expendable fetish.

But there's nothing inherently special about the fetish itself.

A spell matrix is something very different from a fetish. Totally
different animals. A fetish only enhances the magic a little, a matrix
holds a spell, like in a bag sort of. Comparing a fetish with a spell
matrix is like comparing bicycles and bananas.

Fetishes *aren't* magically powered items. Foci are magically powered
items. But a fetish is nothing more than a (usually) specially prepared
something or other that the magician needs to cast a certain spell.

If you take the AD&D approach to magic, the material component helps power
the magic and is consumed/transformed to charge the spell; it's nothing
more than a part of the spell (but still required, regardless of the
caster's beliefs). If you take a more modern physchological approach
(which I have, since to me it fits in better with SR), the fetish is
nothing more than a mental crutch that the magician *must* rely upon and
has come to believe it is required, just like the AD&D wizard. Since magic
is so belief driven, is it so hard to accept that a magician believes he
needs his fetish as much as he needs air to breath, and won't dare take a
chance that he's wrong (especially since the game rules say he does need
it)? Especially for shamans, I see this as being part and parcel to SR magic.

And cost is a fallacious arguement against non-specially prepared fetish
materials. Cost itself doesn't make a fetish; the cost represents
something which is generally thought to be special rituals, purifications,
or simply finding a specific type of something. If your magician wants to
use cheesy poofs as a fetish, simply charge them for a fetish. No big
deal. Maybe they need several bags of cheesy poofs, maybe they have to buy
the expensive brand with "real cheese dust" or something. Make him look
for the bags that have gone beyond the expiration date, whatever.

But there isn't anything explicitly stated what a fetish must be. This
means that is is *possible* to use cheesy poofs as a fetish. I really see
no valid reason to bar the general concept.

Erik J.

Message no. 57 Once upon a time, Erik Jameson wrote;

>But there's nothing inherently special about the fetish itself.
<snip>
>And cost is a fallacious arguement against non-specially prepared fetish
>materials. Cost itself doesn't make a fetish; the cost represents
>something which is generally thought to be special rituals, purifications,
>or simply finding a specific type of something. If your magician wants to
>use cheesy poofs as a fetish, simply charge them for a fetish. No big
>deal. Maybe they need several bags of cheesy poofs, maybe they have to buy
>the expensive brand with "real cheese dust" or something. Make him look
>for the bags that have gone beyond the expiration date, whatever.

Cost doesn't make a Fetish but it does demonstrate that anything can
just be picked and used as a Fetish. The cost implies value and supply
and demand of Fetishes. If Fetishes can be just anything then there would
be no financial value to them (more supply than demand).
Real cheese dust used in an expired bag of Dunkie's Cheesy Poofs
(tm)?
That does become a sort of ritual in and of itself doesn't it? I could
see a Street Shaman using it when it is set up that way. I'm against a
magician just being able round the corner and pick up a few more items
for on the fly fetishes. They are more special than that. A Bic lighter
for Hellblast spell wouldn't be allowed, but if something was done to
make that same Bic lighter special in some way then I would allow it.
That is just the nature of what a Fetish is.

>But there isn't anything explicitly stated what a fetish must be. This
>means that is is *possible* to use cheesy poofs as a fetish. I really see
>no valid reason to bar the general concept.

But there are examples of what can be used for Fetishes SR2 p.133.
In fact that same page mentions the following;
"Fetishes can be purchased from a Talismonger, with prices depending on
the spell's category."
No other option was given. Grimoire has rules for Talismongering which is
a players only other alternative for acquiring Fetishes. Those cheesy
poofs mentioned would still go through the Talismongering process. So
cheesy poofs can be used as Fetishes but they are still not exempt of the
preparation necessary to use them as such

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

Message no. 58 And verily, did Erik Jameson hastily scribble thusly...
|magical energy. It is *possible* for the magician to make those cheesy
|poofs you buy at the local Stuffer Shack into an expendable fetish. And I
|doubt that those cheesy poofs were specially prepared by a talismonger.

Looks like someones been watching southpark....

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

Message no. 59 At 11:56 PM 3/31/98 +0100, you wrote:
>And verily, did Erik Jameson hastily scribble thusly...
>|magical energy. It is *possible* for the magician to make those cheesy
>|poofs you buy at the local Stuffer Shack into an expendable fetish. And I
>|doubt that those cheesy poofs were specially prepared by a talismonger.
>
>Looks like someones been watching southpark....

South Park? I have no idea what you could possibly be referring to...

Erik J.

"Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"

Message no. 60 >
> "Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
"He killed himself! that Bastard"
:^)
--
If you are a dreamer come in,
If you are a dreeamer, a wisher,
A liar, a magic jelly bean buyer,
Come In!
-What should be the motto of all internet users.

Message no. 61 > >Looks like someones been watching southpark....
>
> South Park? I have no idea what you could possibly be referring to...
>
> Erik J.
>
> "Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"

<falling over laughing> Erik, you're a git. :)

Lady Jestyr
...it only hurts me when I laugh...
- I'm in touch with my Inner Klingon... -
| Elle Holmes | jestyr@**********.com | http://jestyr.home.ml.org |
| Shadowrun Webring Ringmaster | GeoCities Leader | RPGA Reviewer |

Message no. 62 And verily, did Erik Jameson hastily scribble thusly...
|
|At 11:56 PM 3/31/98 +0100, you wrote:
|>And verily, did Erik Jameson hastily scribble thusly...
|>|magical energy. It is *possible* for the magician to make those cheesy
|>|poofs you buy at the local Stuffer Shack into an expendable fetish. And I
|>|doubt that those cheesy poofs were specially prepared by a talismonger.
|>
|>Looks like someones been watching southpark....
|
|South Park? I have no idea what you could possibly be referring to...
|
|Erik J.
|
|"Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
|

Y'know... I'm glad this subject came up...
I just saw the christmas net episode (Santa vs Christ) because I mentioned
it to a person who had it on his laptop....
(We only just got the first episode (Alien Abduction) on cable over here,
and it won't be reaching terrestrial TV until the summer.... or later)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

Message no. 63 Quoth Wyrmy the Powerful (1139 1-4-98):

"Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
"He killed himself! that Bastard"

?????????

Wanna back this one up, Wyrm? Admittedly, I could give a hoot (my
campaign's circa 2052, mainly 'cause I've access to nothing more recent
than FoF), but from the chatter Dunky's little 'accident' has been the
key event of the past what, three game-years? And the President of the
UCAS, dragon or no, is supposed to have committed suicide? Or are you
saying he faked his own death? (Hey, waitaminute...... *thoughtful
look*)

(If I'm rehashing old thoughts, please, be gentle.)

Danyel Woods

9604801@********.ac.nz
Hi, I'm Chucky.
Wanna play?

Message no. 64 At 12:20 PM 4/1/98 +1200, you wrote:
>Quoth Wyrmy the Powerful (1139 1-4-98):
>
> "Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
>"He killed himself! that Bastard"
>
>?????????
>
>Wanna back this one up, Wyrm? Admittedly, I could give a hoot (my
>campaign's circa 2052, mainly 'cause I've access to nothing more recent
>than FoF), but from the chatter Dunky's little 'accident' has been the
>key event of the past what, three game-years? And the President of the
>UCAS, dragon or no, is supposed to have committed suicide? Or are you
>saying he faked his own death? (Hey, waitaminute...... *thoughtful
>look*)

Actually less than two gaming years; it's currently 2059, and the election
was August 2057. Your years may vary of course.

You are rehashing old thoughts, but they've all been discussed under full
spoiler protection before, so that may be why you haven't seen them before.
Little ol' Wyrmy made a bit of a goof but spilling his guts [damn you man,
have you no stomach!? ;-)]

Unless you want to know, ignore it. If you do really want to know what the
story is, get Jak Koke's Dragonheart Trilogy (see! I got it right!) and
all will be revealed. Or if you are such a child of television that you
can't delay your gratification, let one of us know and we'll drop the bomb
on you ourselves. But I would recommend getting the books.

Erik J.

"Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"

Message no. 65 Danyel N Woods wrote:
>
> Quoth Wyrmy the Powerful (1139 1-4-98):
>
> "Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
> "He killed himself! that Bastard"
>
> ?????????
>
> Wanna back this one up, Wyrm?

We learned that he killed himself in The Dragon Heart Trilogy.Those
novels are canon, and the third one says(told by lethe,Who is really D
reincarnated) That he commited suicide to power the Dragon heart,a
powerful Artifact used for flattening Mana-spikes

--
If you are a dreamer come in,
If you are a dreeamer, a wisher,
A liar, a magic jelly bean buyer,
Come In!
-What should be the motto of all internet users.

Message no. 66 > Little ol' Wyrmy made a bit of a goof but spilling his guts [damn you man,
> have you no stomach!? ;-)]

My bad.I did'nt think to put a spoiler.I thought everyone here had Read
the Dragon heart Trilogy.When it comes to stomachs, I have not a bit of
one.
--
If you are a dreamer come in,
If you are a dreeamer, a wisher,
A liar, a magic jelly bean buyer,
Come In!
-What should be the motto of all internet users.

Message no. 67 <big ass snip>

Wow. Two words:

"spoiler" and "space"

Mike Broadwater

Message no. 68 On 31 Mar 98 at 19:26, Wyrmy The powerful wrote:

<SNIPPED HUGE SPOILER>

Goddammit, ever heard of spoilers?

So much for actually reading Beyond the Pale and enjoying it.

Thanks for the ignorant thoughtless faux pas, you inconsiderate git.

<sorry, but that really pissed me off>

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
- DREKHEAD - |"Let's face it. Sometimes you're
- drekhead@***.net - | the pigeon, and sometimes
*-ShadowRN - GridSec Division-* | you're the statue."
"To Protect and To Serve" | -Unknown
=================================================================
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html

Message no. 69 MC23 said on 17:22/31 Mar 98...

> I'm against a magician just being able round the corner and pick up a
> few more items for on the fly fetishes. They are more special than that.
> A Bic lighter for Hellblast spell wouldn't be allowed, but if something
> was done to make that same Bic lighter special in some way then I would
> allow it. That is just the nature of what a Fetish is.

The Grimoire agrees with you, since to create a fetish, an Enchanting test
is required, and the materials must have been refined through the use of
an enchanting kit or shop. However, that would probably preclude the use
of existing items as fetishes -- how do you refine a cigarette lighter?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Circumvent yourself.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Message no. 70 > I stand corrected, there is no bonding cost for them, there is karma involved
> however in the making of a fetish foci however, and quite frankly the idea of
> a fetish foci is something I just don't like.

Why not? I admit, they don't make sense to use regularly, but they
aren't intended to. They are one-shot ace-in-the-hole cards that the
mage whips out when the spell HAS to succeed.

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie

Message no. 71 Once upon a time, Gurth wrote;

>MC23 said on 17:22/31 Mar 98...
>
>> I'm against a magician just being able round the corner and pick up a
>> few more items for on the fly fetishes. They are more special than that.
>> A Bic lighter for Hellblast spell wouldn't be allowed, but if something
>> was done to make that same Bic lighter special in some way then I would
>> allow it. That is just the nature of what a Fetish is.
>
>The Grimoire agrees with you, since to create a fetish, an Enchanting test
>is required, and the materials must have been refined through the use of
>an enchanting kit or shop. However, that would probably preclude the use
>of existing items as fetishes -- how do you refine a cigarette lighter?

Well in this instance I was thinking that the lighter would be
inscribed with arcane scribbling that was applied with special materials.
Those inscribing materials are the refined and refining materials
involved. That was my train of thought with that idea.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"All artists are victims of their desire to be unique"
-Original source unknown

I am MC23

Message no. 72 ---MC23 did brighten our lives with the following:>

<snip Gurth's post including the question about the cigarette lighter>

> Well in this instance I was thinking that the lighter would be
> inscribed with arcane scribbling that was applied with special
materials.
> Those inscribing materials are the refined and refining materials
> involved. That was my train of thought with that idea.

I don't see any reason why that wouldn't work as long as the time,
money, and effort are put into it, and the fetish makes sense for that
spell as a lighter would for hellblast.

Caric

"What do you mean they're coming right at us?"

-Dvixen last year sometime :)
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Message no. 73 Once upon a time, Caric wrote;

>---MC23 did brighten our lives with the following:>

Aren't I always that ray of sunshine?

>I don't see any reason why that wouldn't work as long as the time,
>money, and effort are put into it, and the fetish makes sense for that
>spell as a lighter would for hellblast.

That's what I'm saying

>"What do you mean they're coming right at us?"
>
>-Dvixen last year sometime :)

Bwahahaha!
This will get us on the cover of Guns and Ammo for sure.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

I swear to tell
the Truth, the partial Truth, or something like the Truth.

I am MC23

Message no. 74 ---MC23 spouted:

That's more like it. ;) j/k MC

> Once upon a time, Caric wrote;

> Aren't I always that ray of sunshine?

Of course you are...<begins casting anti-carp barrier>

> >I don't see any reason why that wouldn't work as long as the time,
> >money, and effort are put into it, and the fetish makes sense for
that
> >spell as a lighter would for hellblast.
>
> That's what I'm saying

We better be careful...if you and I start agreeing right off the bat
people will get the idea that i'm an imposter. :)

> >"What do you mean they're coming right at us?"
> >
> >-Dvixen last year sometime :)
>
> Bwahahaha!
> This will get us on the cover of Guns and Ammo for sure.

One does ones best.
I swear to tell
> the Truth, the partial Truth, or something like the Truth.

Oh that's a great...I like I like!

Caric

"I can't handle the truth!"
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Message no. 75 MC23 said on 11:37/ 1 Apr 98...

> Well in this instance I was thinking that the lighter would be
> inscribed with arcane scribbling that was applied with special materials.
> Those inscribing materials are the refined and refining materials
> involved. That was my train of thought with that idea.

The main problem is that you have to hand-pick the materials you're going
to refine, and use of powered tools tends to make any gathered materials
useless for the enchanting process... Since most cigarette lighters are
made by the millions in a factory somewhere, IMHO they'd be unusable for
creating fetishes out of :(

However, I've always liked the idea of using everyday items, like
cigarette lighters, as fetishes... You could probably (by stretching the
rules a bit) say that the "gathering" process is actually the enchanter
sifting through pils of cigarette lighters looking for those that can be
used for enchanting into fetishes, and that the actual enchanting consists
of decorating them, or whatever you want to do to make them fetishes.

This could get expensive, though, if you want quality lighters... Anyone
have an idea what 10,000 disposable lighters cost? I know 10,000 ballpoint
pens are something like US$50 IIRC, so cheap lighters should be about the
same. Now if you want Zippos as expendable fetishes... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Circumvent yourself.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Message no. 76 <snip: using a lighter for a fetish>
While the Grimy does talk about refining, IMHO what is most important
about fetishes is that they be symbolically correct. Enchanting a fetish
is mostly a matter of imprinting appropriate astral associations with it.
To do this, the enchanter does the appropriate rituals, the most important
parts are: he/she frequently things about the item being special, and
being appropriate for the magical use. The existing astral associations
of the item must be consistent with the new ones, or the new ones
don't take. Associations from a factory just wont do it. Ever.

IMHO, "X" can be used for a fetish if:
1) It either has a pure natural aura (no high tech processing), or a
strong emotional one that fits with the spell it is needed for. If Mother
Teressa had a favorite cigarette lighter (doubtful) it might make a very
good health spell fetish, strange as that might seem.
2) The Enchanter, after decieding the item is appropriate, adds the
proper associations to it, which requires time and thought and emoting
about the item. The easiest way to do this is to follow the standard
rituals, but I'd allow some improvisation as long as there wasn't an
munchkining going on...
Once these both have been done, the item is still "mundane", but any
magically active person can quickly tell by touch that the item is useable
as a fetish. Expendable fetishes, once used, no longer feel that way,
but could probably be "recharged" with a new enchantment, depending
on what they were.

Double-Domed Mike

Message no. 77 Once upon a time, Gurth wrote;

>MC23 said on 11:37/ 1 Apr 98...
>
>> Well in this instance I was thinking that the lighter would be
>> inscribed with arcane scribbling that was applied with special materials.
>> Those inscribing materials are the refined and refining materials
>> involved. That was my train of thought with that idea.
>
>The main problem is that you have to hand-pick the materials you're going
>to refine, and use of powered tools tends to make any gathered materials
>useless for the enchanting process... Since most cigarette lighters are
>made by the millions in a factory somewhere, IMHO they'd be unusable for
>creating fetishes out of :(

<snip the rest>

My example works best for Street Shamans since their shamanic magic
is street inspired. For this idea to work think of the material used on
the lighter as the actual fetish and the lighter just holds it all
together like a parchment is for written fetish types. The ink and
preparation used on the parchment is enchanted bits where the paper is to
hold it.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

Message no. 78 > However, I've always liked the idea of using everyday items, like
> cigarette lighters, as fetishes... You could probably (by stretching
> the rules a bit) say that the "gathering" process is actually the
> enchanter sifting through pils of cigarette lighters looking for
> those that can be used for enchanting into fetishes, and that the
> actual enchanting consists of decorating them, or whatever you want
> to do to make them fetishes.
>
> This could get expensive, though, if you want quality lighters...
> Anyone have an idea what 10,000 disposable lighters cost? I know
> 10,000 ballpoint pens are something like US$50 IIRC, so cheap
> lighters should be about the same. Now if you want Zippos as
> expendable fetishes... :)

Why 10,000? You can probably spend the time searching through gas
station displays. Sure, it'll take a while to get some, but so does
the gathering test. then you have to "purify" them.

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 79 Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM> said:
> At 10:56 AM 3/31/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
> > I have to agree with MC23 here. If fetishes were a mental crutch, it
> >stands to reason that over time, you could get rid of this mental crutch,
> >and the cast a force 8 hellblast but only take force 6 drain at anytime you
> >want. Gurth worte that fetishes are similar to spell matrices in Earthdawn
> >(if you believe in the crossover stuff). I would definitely agree.
> >Fetishes are magically powered items that allow you to cast higher level
> >spells than you normally could. It is not a belief (or a self-imposed
> >mental limitation) that if I don't have the fetish I can't cast the spell,
> >it's a magically altered fact that a magician takes upon himself at the time
> >that he learns the spell.
>
> No, a fetish is a crutch that *cannot* be overcome. Remember, it's a part
> of the spell forumula. The fetish is a required piece of the spell (which
> MC23 reminded me of yesterday) that cannot be taken away; it's a physical
> component of the spell. And as the spell was designed to use the fetish,
> it can't be used without it. So no, you won't have your Force 8 hellblast
> only taking Force 6 drain without the expendable fetish.

I agree that a Fetish requirement cannot be overcome, but I believe your
reasoning is flawed. The extra requirements (Exclusive or Expendable /
Reusable Fetish) are selected when the magician learns the spell. They
are not part of the spell formula. A magician can re-learn the same
spell from the same formula, but with different (or no) requirements.

> But there's nothing inherently special about the fetish itself.

IIRC, according to the Grimoire, a fetish is specially collected and
prepared using the Enchanting skill. The base material has to be
magically "clean". The fetish is obvious as such when assenced, and
fetishes travel with a magician when astrally projecting. That
sounds special to me.

> Fetishes *aren't* magically powered items. Foci are magically powered
> items. But a fetish is nothing more than a (usually) specially prepared
> something or other that the magician needs to cast a certain spell.
> ...
> But there isn't anything explicitly stated what a fetish must be. This
> means that is is *possible* to use cheesy poofs as a fetish. I really see
> no valid reason to bar the general concept.

Fetishes have to be magically clean. That basically means free from
technological processing, additives, artificial preservatives, etc.
A bag of cheesy poofs off the shelf is not acceptable. However any
talismonger could gather the right materials (real grain, milk, ...)
and bake up a batch of fetishes that look like Cheesy Poofs. He
could probably even store them in a real Cheesy Poofs bag. IMHO,
such fake Cheesy Poof fetishes are ideal for the Nutrition or Meal
spells.

Mage: I'm going to cast a Nutrition spell on everyone. Here, eat these.
Party: Cheesy Poofs! (munch) (munch) (munch) Now that's magic!
Mage: Wait! I didn't have time to cast the spell!
Party: That's OK, we're not hungry anymore.

--
Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
First Albany Corp. Sysadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-

Message no. 80 Brett Borger said on 16:44/ 1 Apr 98...

> Why 10,000?

Because IMHO you'd buy those disposable lighters in bulk, and then start
looking through the heap for the ones that can be turned into fetishes.

> You can probably spend the time searching through gas station displays.
> Sure, it'll take a while to get some, but so does the gathering test.

And you're bound to get a lot of gas station attendants mad at you for
taking all the lighters out of the displays, taking ages to check them
all, and then not buying anything...

<movie reference>Eggs as fetishes, anyone?</movie reference> :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Circumvent yourself.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Message no. 81 > > You can probably spend the time searching through gas station displays.
> > Sure, it'll take a while to get some, but so does the gathering test.
>
> And you're bound to get a lot of gas station attendants mad at you for
> taking all the lighters out of the displays, taking ages to check them
> all, and then not buying anything...

You say this as if this would bother any of us...

-=SwiftOne=-

Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie

Message no. 82 Once upon a time, Gurth wrote;

><movie reference>Eggs as fetishes, anyone?</movie reference> :)

All the eggs have to be perfect and from the same carton. It's about
standards.
Damn guidance counselors.

-MC23, who is not supposed to be here today-
B>]#

Message no. 83 >Once upon a time, Gurth wrote;
>
>><movie reference>Eggs as fetishes, anyone?</movie reference> :)
>
> All the eggs have to be perfect and from the same carton. It's
about
>standards.
>Damn guidance counselors.
>
>-MC23, who is not supposed to be here today-

Well, MC, you need to have a job with more meaning. That's why I
manually masturbate caged animals for artifical insimination.
<Robbie the Robot voice>
Carp shield activated.
</Robbie the Robot voice>

-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"Sure, there's an order to the universe, but this time I
think the Big Guy forgot the pepperoni."
-Liam Bough
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Message no. 84 Are Fetishes transferrable?
Can a mage swipe a fetish a shaman was using for manadart and then design
/ learn a Oxygenate spell that uses that same fetish?

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Message no. 85 At 29-Jun-98 wrote Alfredo B Alves:

>Are Fetishes transferrable?
>Can a mage swipe a fetish a shaman was using for manadart and then design
>/ learn a Oxygenate spell that uses that same fetish?

Not realy but to some degree its possible since fetishes are avaiable for
classes of spells
like healing combat or manipulation so when you uses the fetish for the spells
in one class only it works. But it doesn`t works if you want to use a ie
healing spell fetich for a manipulation spell.

--

-Barbie

---------------------------------------------------------------
"Who needs horror movies when we have Microsoft?"
--Christine Comaford PC Week 27/9/95

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 86 Alfredo B Alves said on 7:24/29 Jun 98,...

> Are Fetishes transferrable?
> Can a mage swipe a fetish a shaman was using for manadart and then design
> / learn a Oxygenate spell that uses that same fetish?

No, because you'd be using a Combat spell fetish to cast a Health
spell, which isn't possible. However, if your fetish for Mana Dart
and my fetish for Mana Bolt were the same object then I'd allow
it. For example, if you use a gold ring as a Mana Dart fetish and I
use a gold ring for casting Mana Bolt, as a GM I'd allow the ring to
be used for either spell.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I guess I'm just the same as him -- I just didn't know it then.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 87 In a message dated 6/29/98 4:34:24 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.COM writes:

> Are Fetishes transferrable?
> Can a mage swipe a fetish a shaman was using for manadart and then design
> / learn a Oxygenate spell that uses that same fetish?
>
In a word...

NO!

The reason for this within SR mechanics is as follows;

Feti (no comment) (pronounced "FET-ee") are smaller, more insignificant with
the overall magical orientation (my summary of the rules). As such, a fetish
can be used by a Shaman or a Hermetic with equal availability (skipping any
common sense house rules of course). HOWEVER, the Feti are to be oriented
towards a given type of magic (Detection, Combat, Health, Illusion,
Manipulation).

Now then, as I said, "Common Sense House Rules" out there do exist. We've
been known to break down the categories of Manipulation and Health Magic to a
more detail-intensive level (but admittedly haven't done for more than a year
now). A Fetish could, in theory, be made that would work for any category of
magic, much in the way that a Power Foci does. However, for the purpose of
Game Mechanics and/or Balance, it would cost more for said flexibility
(probably twice that of a Manipulation Fetish).

All IMO of course

-K

Message no. 88 On Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:32:27 EDT K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
writes:
>In a message dated 6/29/98 4:34:24 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
>dghost@****.COM writes:
>
>> Are Fetishes transferrable?
>> Can a mage swipe a fetish a shaman was using for manadart and then
design
>> / learn a Oxygenate spell that uses that same fetish?

>In a word...
>
>NO!
>
>The reason for this within SR mechanics is as follows;
>
<SNIP>
>All IMO of course
>
>-K

:) I got a bit over zealous in generalizing the question :) What I should
have asked is: Can a mage use a fetish for a different tradition? ie, a
Hermetic swipes a bone health fetish from a Shaman. Can that Hermetic
now design a health spell that uses that uses that bone fetish?

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Message no. 89 In a message dated 98-06-30 14:52:06 EDT, you write:

> :) I got a bit over zealous in generalizing the question :) What I should
> have asked is: Can a mage use a fetish for a different tradition? ie, a
> Hermetic swipes a bone health fetish from a Shaman. Can that Hermetic
> now design a health spell that uses that uses that bone fetish?

You can design a spell that will use anythign as a fetish... I could design a
spell that would use my pubic hair as a fetish _IF_ I could work that into my
own little magical world. The point isn't "can he use a hunk of bone as a
fetish?" Its "does this fetish object fit into my theory of magic, and will
it help me to power my spells more effectively?"

Let's say this mage got a bear tooth, a reusable Combat spell fetish from a
bear shaman. Now, how is this going to fit into his magical worldview?
Perhaps he'll have enough of a shamanic slant to his magic that using the
tooth of an animal makes sense. More likely, though, he'll not be able to
make this rather abstract piece of arcana fit into his more structured magical
world. Notice that when a mage wants to learn a shaman's spell, he has to
spend some time translating into something he can use... this is the same
thing. The shaman's formula will tell the mage the shape the mana must
take... he must use his own knowledge to know how to shape it according to his
own magical world.

IMO, 1% of the population of Shadowrun has its own magical tradition... the
rest are mundanes.

Nexx

Message no. 90 In a message dated 6/30/98 1:52:09 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.COM writes:

> :) I got a bit over zealous in generalizing the question :) What I should
> have asked is: Can a mage use a fetish for a different tradition? ie, a
> Hermetic swipes a bone health fetish from a Shaman. Can that Hermetic
> now design a health spell that uses that uses that bone fetish?
>
According to SR Mechanics as they currently stand, yes, the Hermetic can pick
up the Shaman's fetish and use it as they choose to. The spell formulae is
going to be different of course, but the spell semantics won't be.

Why do I think I just contradicted myself there???

-K

Mailing List Logs for

Further Reading

Disclaimer