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Message no. 1
From: Steffen Lassahn <sl@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 04:13:20 GMT
Hey Guys!

Today a question came up when we played: What happens if you are in
astral space and you want to cast an expendable fetish supported
spell? The rule says you have to at least touch the fetish. Does that
mean that you have to have the fetishes in your hand if you go
astrally? What happens if you have plenty of these spells and if you
plan to be a longer time in astral space? Do you have to carry the
astral pictures of the fetishes around all the time like you do with a
weapon focus? Are they astrally active like foci so you can ground
spells through them and destropy them? Do they count as foci so you
cannot mask them if you have to many of them with you?

I hope somebody could understand the question (its 5:20 in the morning
and we just played for 16 hours ;-)) and can even answer it.

Steffen
Message no. 2
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 12:37:54 +0100
Steffen Lassahn said on 4:13/24 Nov 96...

> Today a question came up when we played: What happens if you are in
> astral space and you want to cast an expendable fetish supported
> spell? The rule says you have to at least touch the fetish. Does that
> mean that you have to have the fetishes in your hand if you go
> astrally? What happens if you have plenty of these spells and if you
> plan to be a longer time in astral space? Do you have to carry the
> astral pictures of the fetishes around all the time like you do with a
> weapon focus?

SRII page 146: "Astral images of the magician's fetishes and magical items
accompany the journey." This suggests that you have your fetishes with you
even when you're in astral space, and touching the astral image of the
fetish allows you to cast your spell.

> Are they astrally active like foci so you can ground
> spells through them and destropy them? Do they count as foci so you
> cannot mask them if you have to many of them with you?

Fetishes are not active magical items, and you can't ground through them,
have to mask them, or can become addicted to them.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You can't clean the toilet, Neil! It'll lose all its character!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 3
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:31:04 -0500
On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, Gurth wrote:

> Fetishes are not active magical items, and you can't ground through them,
> have to mask them, or can become addicted to them.

Do you mean...

"Fetishes are not active magical items, and you can't ground through
them, don't have to mask them, and cannot become addicted to them. " ?


I don't have Awakenings (too low of a SNR for the $18 to $20), so the
last part raises my curiosity.

Personally, I think that the whole bit about 'focus addiction' is a way
for GMs who allow their mages to walk around with too many magical foci to
find a way to try to restrict it.

Me, I restrict it by allowing the natural consequences of it to occur.

GM: One of your spell locks goes dead. The one that locked Inc. Refl. +3
Playser: What?!? It was Masked! I should have known it was being
attacked! That's not fair!
GM: Well you'd be right - *if* the lock itself was being attacked.
You've neglected the possibility that the spell was destroyed in combat.
That's your freebie help for the day. Read the books again after the game.
Player: Oh. I'll Astrally Perceive.
GM: That's what the Insect wanted you to do....
<etc>

Since active foci seem to draw attention to astral things that the
players probably don't want attention from too often, and since the level
of magical threat seems to be growing in SR....
... then the world (IMO) would present enough of a problem to the "I've
got 36 points of foci!" type of mage.


Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

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Message no. 4
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:28:02 +0000
|
|Hey Guys!
|
|Today a question came up when we played: What happens if you are in
|astral space and you want to cast an expendable fetish supported
|spell?

As far as I know, you can't.....
You can't make use of any fetish or foci while fully astral....
(The only exception is the weapon focus.... I think...)

Anyway, I DO know that fetishes aren't magical in any way, so that's another
reason why you can't take them (just in case I was wrong about the foci)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:19:54 GMT
Brian W Allison (ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU) wrote:

: GM: One of your spell locks goes dead. The one that locked Inc. Refl. +3
: Playser: What?!? It was Masked! I should have known it was being
: attacked! That's not fair!
: GM: Well you'd be right - *if* the lock itself was being attacked.
: You've neglected the possibility that the spell was destroyed in combat.
: That's your freebie help for the day. Read the books again after the game.
: Player: Oh. I'll Astrally Perceive.
: GM: That's what the Insect wanted you to do....
: <etc>

Actually you notice when one of your spells is being attacked and you
can assign magic pool to support it in astral combat (as you can do
for foci and items).

: Since active foci seem to draw attention to astral things that the
: players probably don't want attention from too often, and since the level
: of magical threat seems to be growing in SR....
: ... then the world (IMO) would present enough of a problem to the "I've
: got 36 points of foci!" type of mage.

Especially because you need Ini Grade 36 to mask all these
properly. ;-) (of course I know there is deliberate masking, but that
is easier to be seen through)

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 6
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:54:44 -0500
On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, Georg Greve wrote:

> Brian W Allison (ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU) wrote:
>
> : GM: One of your spell locks goes dead. The one that locked Inc. Refl. +3
> : Playser: What?!? It was Masked! I should have known it was being
> : attacked! That's not fair!
> : GM: Well you'd be right - *if* the lock itself was being attacked.
> : You've neglected the possibility that the spell was destroyed in combat.
> : That's your freebie help for the day. Read the books again after the game.
> : Player: Oh. I'll Astrally Perceive.
> : GM: That's what the Insect wanted you to do....
> : <etc>
>
> Actually you notice when one of your spells is being attacked and you
> can assign magic pool to support it in astral combat (as you can do
> for foci and items).

Oh? Where does it say that? If Awakenings you might be right, but the
rules about helping one of your 'creations' by allocating magic pool for
its defense - that only applies to foci. Locked/Quickened spells don't
qualify for that sort of help unless you're using a House Rule.


Please do show me where one of the sourcebooks contradicts me....



Brian



Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 7
From: "M. Gotthard" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:24:03 +1000
> Please do show me where one of the sourcebooks contradicts me....
>

Hell; You sound like me.

Don't really like the sound of my own voice, either.
*grin*

Bleach.
Message no. 8
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:11:58 GMT
Brian W Allison (ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU) wrote:
: Oh? Where does it say that? If Awakenings you might be right, but the
: rules about helping one of your 'creations' by allocating magic pool for
: its defense - that only applies to foci. Locked/Quickened spells don't
: qualify for that sort of help unless you're using a House Rule.
: Please do show me where one of the sourcebooks contradicts me....

You asked for it, you get it: *grin*

SRII MAIN rulebook, pg.148, right side, "Spells", 2nd&3rd sentence:

"Although the caster of the spell may be in the physical world, he
knows the spell is being attacked. He can allocate dice from the Magic
Pool and from any other foci or totem modifiers he has for that spell
to help the spell survive."

Is this sufficient..? *smile* thought it was. *evil grin* (sorry,
couldn't resist)

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:13:14 +0100
Brian W Allison said on 9:31/24 Nov 96...

> > Fetishes are not active magical items, and you can't ground through them,
> > have to mask them, or can become addicted to them.
>
> Do you mean...
>
> "Fetishes are not active magical items, and you can't ground through
> them, don't have to mask them, and cannot become addicted to them. " ?

That's what I mean, yes -- I just left off most of the negatives on the
assumption that it was clear already... probably because in Dutch it's
just as clear that way :)

> I don't have Awakenings (too low of a SNR for the $18 to $20), so the
> last part raises my curiosity.
>
> Personally, I think that the whole bit about 'focus addiction' is a way
> for GMs who allow their mages to walk around with too many magical foci to
> find a way to try to restrict it.


Me too, and it only works if you don't have an initiate magician walking
around -- a few grades of initiation tend to allow the character to use
just about any focus (s)he wants, in part because there will be little
karma left to buy foci with :)

> Since active foci seem to draw attention to astral things that the
> players probably don't want attention from too often, and since the level
> of magical threat seems to be growing in SR....
> ... then the world (IMO) would present enough of a problem to the "I've
> got 36 points of foci!" type of mage.

That's also not something I like to do, though... I don't think it's nice
on the players to waste evry focus they have the moment it gets turned on
(which is the impression I get from some GMs), and again it doesn't really
work against an initiate magician.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You can't clean the toilet, Neil! It'll lose all its character!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 10
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 07:12:12 -0500
On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Georg Greve wrote:

> You asked for it, you get it: *grin*
>
> SRII MAIN rulebook, pg.148, right side, "Spells", 2nd&3rd sentence:
>
> "Although the caster of the spell may be in the physical world, he
> knows the spell is being attacked. He can allocate dice from the Magic
> Pool and from any other foci or totem modifiers he has for that spell
> to help the spell survive."
>
> Is this sufficient..? *smile* thought it was. *evil grin* (sorry,
> couldn't resist)

Cool....

I wonder if this is supposed to apply to spells which are Locked or
Quickened?

Hm...



Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 11
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:40:32 +0000
| Oh? Where does it say that? If Awakenings you might be right, but the
|rules about helping one of your 'creations' by allocating magic pool for
|its defense - that only applies to foci. Locked/Quickened spells don't
|qualify for that sort of help unless you're using a House Rule.
|
|
| Please do show me where one of the sourcebooks contradicts me....

Look in the main book under astral combat Vs spells...
I don't have the book on me, but it is possible for a mage to attack a spell
in transit, and stop it from reaching it's target, and the casting mage can
assign magic pool to aid his spell in combat...

In the case of sustained spells, I see no reason why you can't attack a
spell that's reached it's target....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 12
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:06:54 +0000
| Cool....
|
| I wonder if this is supposed to apply to spells which are Locked or
|Quickened?
|
| Hm...

Well, it's always easier to break a force 1 spell lock than a spell that
could have been cast at a higher force....

As for quickenings, I imagine the spells can still be protected....
Can't imagine for a moment why not....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 13
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:19:09 +0000
On 24 Nov 96 at 22:54, Brian W Allison wrote:
[snip]
> > Actually you notice when one of your spells is being attacked and you
> > can assign magic pool to support it in astral combat (as you can do
> > for foci and items).
>
> Oh? Where does it say that? If Awakenings you might be right, but the
> rules about helping one of your 'creations' by allocating magic pool for
> its defense - that only applies to foci. Locked/Quickened spells don't
> qualify for that sort of help unless you're using a House Rule.

> Please do show me where one of the sourcebooks contradicts me....
SRII, p.148: ''A spell uses its Foprce rating for all tests in any contest with
a magician in astral space. Although the caster of the spell may be in the
physical world, he knows the spell is being attacked. He can allocate dice from
the Magic Pool and from any foci or totem modifiers he has for that spell to
help the spell survive.''

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | 'If we had to buy |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de|you, you wouldn't be|
| \___ __/ | | worth the price.' |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | - E. Weatherwax |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | (T. Pratchett)|
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 14
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:19:09 +0000
On 25 Nov 96 at 7:12, Brian W Allison wrote:
[snip]
> Cool....
>
> I wonder if this is supposed to apply to spells which are Locked or
> Quickened?
>
> Hm...
A spell is a spell is a spell... since this rule is in no way limited to
combat spells, or instant spells, there's no reason why a locked/quickened
spell shouldn't be affected.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |'The rich control |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| The Government, |
| \___ __/ | | The Media, |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | And the Law!' |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | - Queensryche |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 15
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:07:56 -0500
On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Gurth wrote:

> Brian W Allison said on 9:31/24 Nov 96...
[snippage]

> > Since active foci seem to draw attention to astral things that the
> > players probably don't want attention from too often, and since the level
> > of magical threat seems to be growing in SR....
> > ... then the world (IMO) would present enough of a problem to the "I've
> > got 36 points of foci!" type of mage.
>
> That's also not something I like to do, though... I don't think it's nice
> on the players to waste evry focus they have the moment it gets turned on
> (which is the impression I get from some GMs), and again it doesn't really
> work against an initiate magician.

Yes, that'd be far too harsh.

In SR-RL, turning on foci wouldn't be a problem in certain settings. Now
inside Chicago's Containment Zone.... it might be a problem rather
quickly. <Eeeeek! Run! Get help!>
But if they walk around too often with active foci, then at some point
it'll draw attention.

As far as addiction, that will occur in the *Player* faster than in the
*character*. And as such, the character will suffer properly for it.
Usually by drawing attention to themselves one time too many, then when
the drek hits the fan.... Well it might not be prety if they've come to
rely on that IncWilpower+4 spell. Or that IncReflexes+3 spell.

I've seen it happen.


Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 16
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:14:38 -0500
On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Spike wrote:

> As for quickenings, I imagine the spells can still be protected....
> Can't imagine for a moment why not....

They've been imbued with a life force, and then cut loose from the Mage.
Now they're their own creature - so to speak.

Pure speculation of course, but a Quickened Spell seems no longer to
rely on the mage for anything. So is the link betwen them broken? I'd
think so, which would mean that the mage couldn't reinforce the spell with
his Magic Pool.


Again, the rules are not clear on it and it'd be more likely that
they're interpreted to mean *any* spell *ever* cast by a mage as long as
that spell is still active.
That sounds like a bit of overkill to me on that rule.



Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 17
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:27:52 -0600
At 09:11 AM 11/25/96 GMT, you wrote:
>SRII MAIN rulebook, pg.148, right side, "Spells", 2nd&3rd sentence:
>
>"Although the caster of the spell may be in the physical world, he
>knows the spell is being attacked. He can allocate dice from the Magic
>Pool and from any other foci or totem modifiers he has for that spell
>to help the spell survive."

Of course, if the astral nastie managed to defeat the spell in one action,
the end result would be "Oh, your spell lock seems to have just gone dead."
In two actions, it'd be "Something's screwing with your spell lock. Never
mind, it's dead."



-Thomas Deeny
saw Tom Dowd at the 7-11 with Elvis and Janis Joplin.

"If you talk to God, you are praying; if God talks to you, you have
schizophrenia."
-Dr. Thomas Szasz
Message no. 18
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:27:56 -0600
At 07:12 AM 11/25/96 -0500, an Evil GM wrote:
> Cool....
>
> I wonder if this is supposed to apply to spells which are Locked or
>Quickened?
>
> Hm...

Yep, the Grimmything says that a magician can attack quickened spells in
astral combat. The number of Karma points used to quicken the spell is the
spell's strength.

-Thomas Deeny
saw Tom Dowd at the 7-11 with Elvis and Janis Joplin.

"If you talk to God, you are praying; if God talks to you, you have
schizophrenia."
-Dr. Thomas Szasz
Message no. 19
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:39:52 -0500
On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Faux Pas wrote:

> At 07:12 AM 11/25/96 -0500, an Evil GM wrote:
> > Cool....
> >
> > I wonder if this is supposed to apply to spells which are Locked or
> >Quickened?
> >
> > Hm...
>
> Yep, the Grimmything says that a magician can attack quickened spells in
> astral combat. The number of Karma points used to quicken the spell is the
> spell's strength.


I didn't mean 'I wonder if Quick/Lock'd spells can be attacked on the
Astral'.

I meant 'I wonder if Q/L'd spells can be aided by the caster via the
caster's Magic Pool'.



According to the most likely interp of the rules, the answer is yes.

That seems out of balance to me.



"Oh Joe, that spell you quickened on that guy 3 years ago, it's being
attacked."

"I thought he moved half way around the world?"

"Yea, but so? The rules allow you to defend the spell w/your MP."



*shakes head*




Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 20
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:01:33 -0500
> On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Faux Pas wrote:
>
> > At 07:12 AM 11/25/96 -0500, an Evil GM wrote:
> > > Cool....
> > >
> > > I wonder if this is supposed to apply to spells which are Locked or
> > >Quickened?
> > >
> > > Hm...
> >
> > Yep, the Grimmything says that a magician can attack quickened spells in
> > astral combat. The number of Karma points used to quicken the spell is the
> > spell's strength.
>
>
> I didn't mean 'I wonder if Quick/Lock'd spells can be attacked on the
> Astral'.
>
> I meant 'I wonder if Q/L'd spells can be aided by the caster via the
> caster's Magic Pool'.
>
>
>
> According to the most likely interp of the rules, the answer is yes.
>
> That seems out of balance to me.
>
>
>
> "Oh Joe, that spell you quickened on that guy 3 years ago, it's being
> attacked."
>
> "I thought he moved half way around the world?"
>
> "Yea, but so? The rules allow you to defend the spell w/your MP."
>
>
>
> *shakes head*
Two things...first of all, how about spells that you have quickened on
yourself?

Secondly, what are the rule about masking quickend spells in your aura..
IMHO, it would be alot easier to mask a quickened spell than a foci.
Message no. 21
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:24:59 +0000
|
|On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Spike wrote:
|
|> As for quickenings, I imagine the spells can still be protected....
|> Can't imagine for a moment why not....
|
| They've been imbued with a life force, and then cut loose from the Mage.
|Now they're their own creature - so to speak.
|
| Pure speculation of course, but a Quickened Spell seems no longer to
|rely on the mage for anything. So is the link betwen them broken? I'd
|think so, which would mean that the mage couldn't reinforce the spell with
|his Magic Pool.

I suppose that all depends on whether or not the spell was cast by the mage
onto himself....
If he retains some contact with it, maybe he can still protect it, whilst if
it is cast on someone/something else he can't.....


--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 22
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:32:55 +0000
| I didn't mean 'I wonder if Quick/Lock'd spells can be attacked on the
|Astral'.
| I meant 'I wonder if Q/L'd spells can be aided by the caster via the
|caster's Magic Pool'.
|
| According to the most likely interp of the rules, the answer is yes.
|
| That seems out of balance to me.
|
| "Oh Joe, that spell you quickened on that guy 3 years ago, it's being
|attacked."
|
| "I thought he moved half way around the world?"
|
| "Yea, but so? The rules allow you to defend the spell w/your MP."

With a spell lock, the mage and focus are linked by an astral umbilical
chord, no matter how far away the person with the spell-lock is....

If it's a quickening, I'd say, only if the spell is on the casting mage...
(He's still linked to it... It's not free-floating....)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 23
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:21:12 -0800
[snip "can't help quickened spells w/ magic pool]

> Two things...first of all, how about spells that you have quickened on
> yourself?

Well, they still have no connection to you any more...being autonomous astral
constructs. Thats the whole thing about Quickening, it severs the link between the
caster and the spell..you aren't in control anymore and don't have to maintain it,
but similarly you can't help it any more either.

> Secondly, what are the rule about masking quickend spells in your aura..
> IMHO, it would be alot easier to mask a quickened spell than a foci.

Why?

~Tim
Message no. 24
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:50:31 -0500
> [snip "can't help quickened spells w/ magic pool]
>
> > Two things...first of all, how about spells that you have quickened on
> > yourself?
>
> Well, they still have no connection to you any more...being autonomous astral
> constructs. Thats the whole thing about Quickening, it severs the link between the
> caster and the spell..you aren't in control anymore and don't have to maintain it,
> but similarly you can't help it any more either.
>
> > Secondly, what are the rule about masking quickend spells in your aura..
> > IMHO, it would be alot easier to mask a quickened spell than a foci.
>
> Why?
>
Because there is no material link that forms the connection between the
astral plane and the material plane, there is only a semi-stratified
energy pattern, that has been hardered into permanicy with your life
force. The karma-enhanced pattern should have an astral resonance with
your own aura which would make it easier to absorb into your aura.

(in otherwards, because it makes more sence to me. Why would someone
quicken a spell if they can just a easily use a spell lock. Less karma,
easier casting, more flexibility. IMHO, quickened spells would be easier
to mask because they are purely astral eneties, and I think that an
initiate would have an easier time absorbing them into his aura. )
Message no. 25
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:50:25 -0800
> > Secondly, what are the rule about masking quickend spells in your aura..
> > > IMHO, it would be alot easier to mask a quickened spell than a foci.
> >
> > Why?
> >
> Because there is no material link that forms the connection between the
> astral plane and the material plane, there is only a semi-stratified
> energy pattern, that has been hardered into permanicy with your life
> force. The karma-enhanced pattern should have an astral resonance with
> your own aura which would make it easier to absorb into your aura.
>
> (in otherwards, because it makes more sence to me. Why would someone
> quicken a spell if they can just a easily use a spell lock. Less karma,
> easier casting, more flexibility. IMHO, quickened spells would be easier
> to mask because they are purely astral eneties, and I think that an
> initiate would have an easier time absorbing them into his aura. )

I'll have to re-read the stuff on quickening to see if it has any similarities with
your Aura's resonance..if it did that would make it almost as bad as a spell-lock.

As for why quicken? Well, because you can't ground though them (yes, hot topic..),
they don't leave a link back to you, they're harder to break, they don't cost 45,000+
nuyen, etc..

~Tim
Message no. 26
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:21:00 -0500
On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Spike wrote:

[ I originally wrote...]

> | I didn't mean 'I wonder if Quick/Lock'd spells can be attacked on the
> |Astral'.
> | I meant 'I wonder if Q/L'd spells can be aided by the caster via the
> |caster's Magic Pool'.
> |
> | According to the most likely interp of the rules, the answer is yes.
> |
> | That seems out of balance to me.
> |
> | "Oh Joe, that spell you quickened on that guy 3 years ago, it's being
> |attacked."
> |
> | "I thought he moved half way around the world?"
> |
> | "Yea, but so? The rules allow you to defend the spell w/your MP."
>
> With a spell lock, the mage and focus are linked by an astral umbilical
> chord, no matter how far away the person with the spell-lock is....
>
> If it's a quickening, I'd say, only if the spell is on the casting mage...
> (He's still linked to it... It's not free-floating....)


You're right - with a Spell Lock the mage is connected to the Lock.
That's not the same as a connection to the spell. I'm not really nit-
picking, rather drawing a distinction between the mage and his focus (or
Lock in this case) and the mage and a spell that he's cut loose from his
concentration.

And with a Quickening.... if he's paid Karma for it then the mage gets a
chance to make it up to 2xForce strength as an astral creature by paying
up to 2xForce for the Quickening. So why would the mage still have a bond
by which he could strengthen the spell in combat?



As I said, seems like a hole in their logic.

But that's me, and I'm hard to deal with. :)



Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

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--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 27
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:25:24 -0500
On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Midn Daniel O Fredrikson wrote:

[snip]
> > I didn't mean 'I wonder if Quick/Lock'd spells can be attacked on the
> > Astral'.
> >
> > I meant 'I wonder if Q/L'd spells can be aided by the caster via the
> > caster's Magic Pool'.
> >
> >
> >
> > According to the most likely interp of the rules, the answer is yes.
> >
> > That seems out of balance to me.

[snip]

> Two things...first of all, how about spells that you have quickened on
> yourself?
>
> Secondly, what are the rule about masking quickend spells in your aura..
> IMHO, it would be alot easier to mask a quickened spell than a foci.


Unless Awakenings created them, there are *no* rules for masking spells.
Masking only applies to:
1) The mage's aura, allowing them to appear as a non-Initiate or mundane
2) The mage's foci, allowing them to appear mundane.


I use a house rule that - for the purposes of Masking - a mage can treat
spells as foci of as many Rating points as the spell has Force points.





Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 28
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:26:22 GMT
Brian W Allison writes

> > Secondly, what are the rule about masking quickend spells in your aura..
> > IMHO, it would be alot easier to mask a quickened spell than a
> > foci.

> Unless Awakenings created them, there are *no* rules for masking spells.
> Masking only applies to:
> 1) The mage's aura, allowing them to appear as a non-Initiate or mundane
> 2) The mage's foci, allowing them to appear mundane.
>
> I use a house rule that - for the purposes of Masking - a mage can treat
> spells as foci of as many Rating points as the spell has Force points.
>
I would say its more the rules don't cover the subject properly. No
Awakenings does not add to the above other than to actually bother to
tell you the 'non-initiated mage' mask is legal, the grimoire doesn't
actually say it is! but then all it really does is say 'here's
masking' it does...., interpret as you like.....

I would say that its very silly if masking a spell lock doesn't hide
the spell as well.
'oh look a sustained spell on a mundane with no spell lock, i wonder,
initiated mage masking lock, no never......' bit silly, thats more
information than letting them see the lock give them.

I allow spells and quickening to be masked as if they were spell
locks on the basis that a lock sustianed spell can be masked so why
not a quickening or mage sustained one.

However quickening may only be masked if quickened to the mage doing
the masking. (if its light on the peble in your pocket, no ..)
Anchoring is done on items, no masking that, but likewise put it in
your pocket, won't appear on the ouside of your aura, get searched
and the item found and astralled and well the question list but what
the copper never sees he's not likely to ask about.

The rules are far from clear, these are my interpretations of what i
think is sensible.

Mark
Message no. 29
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fetishes in astral space
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 17:42:42 -0500
On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Mark Steedman wrote:

> Brian W Allison writes
>
> > I use a house rule that - for the purposes of Masking - a mage can treat
> > spells as foci of as many Rating points as the spell has Force points.

> I would say its more the rules don't cover the subject properly. No
> Awakenings does not add to the above other than to actually bother to
> tell you the 'non-initiated mage' mask is legal, the grimoire doesn't
> actually say it is! but then all it really does is say 'here's
> masking' it does...., interpret as you like.....
>
> I would say that its very silly if masking a spell lock doesn't hide
> the spell as well.
> 'oh look a sustained spell on a mundane with no spell lock, i wonder,
> initiated mage masking lock, no never......' bit silly, thats more
> information than letting them see the lock give them.

In Astral Space it is not possible to tell the diff between a Sustained
Spell, a Locked Spell, or a Quickened Spell.

And any of those three could be the case for such a Mundane, and in fact
the likelihood is a matter of the cultural particulars of the area.

Hiding the Lock w/o hiding the spell is quite reasonable, since the Lock
can be Grounded through and the spell can not.

> I allow spells and quickening to be masked as if they were spell
> locks on the basis that a lock sustianed spell can be masked so why
> not a quickening or mage sustained one.

Because what you're masking is a thing attached to the mage's aura.
The Locked/Quickened spell is not attached to the aura.

> Anchoring is done on items, no masking that, but likewise put it in
> your pocket, won't appear on the ouside of your aura, get searched

Not true. The aura of the anchored item is not enveloped by another
aura. Sorry, clothes do not have a living aura. Besides, the more powerful
the item, the more the aura will bleed through. And an ancoring of force 1
is significantly more powerful than a mundane item.




Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---

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