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Message no. 1
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@***.GWU.EDU>
Subject: Fibre-Optics
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 23:21:25 -0500
I may be wrong, but here's what I've garnered about Fibre from my work in
interactive television and other telecom stuff:

First off, it MIGHT be possible to see via fibre with a mirror and such,
but it'd be a pretty damned complicated setup, using very coarse fibre
cable (which, in the world of Shadowrun, would be rare because it doesn't
transmit data as accurately.)

Secondly, the only use so far is to transmit ONE-WAY purely digital
information. (To do two-way or more, use two or more strands.) Analog
data won't work...only pure ON/OFF digital. Don't ask me why...I'm only
an operational engineer, I know nothing about the actual physics of it.

So, if line-of-sight spellcasting works over "conventional" video systems,
it will work over video systems using fibre-optic cable (and probably
everything will by then.)

Here's another question for y'all to ponder...say a wage mage is watching
somebody via a hidden wireless cable, and decides to cast as spell at the
person. Suddenly, as the spell is being cast, STATIC! The mage can still
see, but its not as clear. Does this mean the spell will be diluted? (I
doubt anybody really knows, but its worth pondering for a few minutes.)

/--------------------------------------------------------------------\
| J.D. Falk, Co-Founder, GRAB! Multimedia Productions |
| Silver Spring, Maryland, U.S.A. jdfalk@***.gwu.edu |
\--------------------------------------------------------------------/
Message no. 2
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fibre-Optics
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 09:39:56 GMT
>First off, it MIGHT be possible to see via fibre with a mirror and such,
>but it'd be a pretty damned complicated setup, using very coarse fibre
>cable (which, in the world of Shadowrun, would be rare because it doesn't
>transmit data as accurately.)

Yeah, I agree that light is light, so theoretically someone could see the
light at the end of the FO tunnel. However, the light is being bent and
refracted to be used as a signal. . .the human eye will just see flashes
of light; no picture.

>>So, if line-of-sight spellcasting works over "conventional" video
systems,

It doesn't. FOs don't make it any easier.

>Here's another question for y'all to ponder...say a wage mage is watching
>somebody via a hidden wireless cable, and decides to cast as spell at the
"Wireless Cable"? There's an oxymoron. Do you mean camera? (I do this all the
time, typing a word that begins with the same letter but has little relation
to the word I mean.) If so, then NO: Spells must be seen with the caster's
own vision, which includes cybereye's he's paid Essence for. You CANNOT
cast spells via transmitted image.


J Roberson
Message no. 3
From: DV82REL8 <GRAFF85@********.CORTLAND.EDU>
Subject: Fibre Optics....
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 10:53:30 -0400
Chummers I think who ever it was that said the scene in patriot games was bogus
is totally off their rocker and not tuned into the real world: Current day
surgery. They use fiber optic cameras to look into your arteries and the such
using a fiber optic lead!! So don't go telling me that you can't use the same
tech to look under a door to see who's there!
-Head Case
Message no. 4
From: Todd Montgomery <tmont@****.WVU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fibre Optics....
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 11:00:58 -0500
>From Head Case:
> Chummers I think who ever it was that said the scene in patriot games was
bogus
> is totally off their rocker and not tuned into the real world: Current day
> surgery. They use fiber optic cameras to look into your arteries and the such
> using a fiber optic lead!! So don't go telling me that you can't use the same
> tech to look under a door to see who's there!

I was saying the WAY the person phrased the statement it was wrong.
The statement lead me to believe that they THOUGHT that the scene used
ONLY a fiber and a magnifying glass. That is wrong. I am well aware of what
fibers can and can not do. I know about the imaging technology that can be
done today. They also have some focusing problems when dealing with long
distance (relatively. 4+ feet). But this is the fault of the CCD and not
the fiber. The fiber carries light pulses, and contrary to popular belief
is NOT as fast as silicon.

I am still off my rocker, but that is something totally different.

-- Quiktek
-- Todd Montgomery
tmont@****.wvu.edu
tmont@***.wvu.edu
un032507@*******.wvnet.edu
Message no. 5
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fibre-Optics
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 10:34:40 EST
>>>>> On Sun, 7 Nov 1993 23:21:25 -0500 (EST), "J.D. Falk"
>>>>> <jdfalk@***.gwu.edu> said:

jdfalk> First off, it MIGHT be possible to see via fibre with a mirror and
jdfalk> such, but it'd be a pretty damned complicated setup, using very
jdfalk> coarse fibre cable (which, in the world of Shadowrun, would be rare
jdfalk> because it doesn't transmit data as accurately.)

Exactly. And the coarser the fiber, the more tiny imperfections it will
have, which result in a loss of signal and clarity.

jdfalk> Secondly, the only use so far is to transmit ONE-WAY purely digital
jdfalk> information. (To do two-way or more, use two or more strands.)
jdfalk> Analog data won't work...only pure ON/OFF digital. Don't ask me
jdfalk> why...I'm only an operational engineer, I know nothing about the
jdfalk> actual physics of it.

Simple, really. Same reason that you can only transmit a signal one-way via
a metal wire: electrons and photons move in one direction at a time. That's
why communication networks use either a "ring" structure or two-lead wiring.

jdfalk> So, if line-of-sight spellcasting works over "conventional" video
jdfalk> systems, it will work over video systems using fibre-optic cable
jdfalk> (and probably everything will by then.)

Except that it doesn't. Spells don't work over video, because it is *not* a
direct LOS from caster to target.

jdfalk> Here's another question for y'all to ponder...say a wage mage is
jdfalk> watching somebody via a hidden wireless cable, and decides to cast
jdfalk> as spell at the person.

The spell will never reach the target, so the rest of the statement is
spurrious.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat
ask about rat-pgp.el v1.63 PGP Public Key Block available upon request
||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||
Why does my real-time simulation of the Universe keep crashing with an `Out
Of Memory' error? --Me
Message no. 6
From: "Using your parents money to make the world a cleaner, a safer,
Subject: Re: Fibre-Optics
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 11:28:34 -0500
[stuff deleted]

>If so, then NO: Spells must be seen with the caster's
>own vision, which includes cybereye's he's paid Essence for. You CANNOT
>cast spells via transmitted image.
>
>
>J Roberson
ok
What happens if a mage has cybereye's, a display link, and a data jack.
Can he then plug into security cameras and cast spells at people he sees.
Since the cameras would now simply be an extension of his cybereye's, this
should work.


KYV
Message no. 7
From: DV82REL8 <GRAFF85@********.CORTLAND.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fibre-Optics
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 11:36:53 -0400
>[stuff deleted]
>
>>If so, then NO: Spells must be seen with the caster's
>>own vision, which includes cybereye's he's paid Essence for. You CANNOT
>>cast spells via transmitted image.
>>
>>
>>J Roberson
>ok
>What happens if a mage has cybereye's, a display link, and a data jack.
>Can he then plug into security cameras and cast spells at people he sees.
>Since the cameras would now simply be an extension of his cybereye's, this
>should work.
>
>
>KYV

Gang one thing we are forgetting here: LOS. to quote an example from the book:
if you are using a mirror and standing behind a wall to see your target. when
you cast the spell it will not "bounce" off the mirror to the target, it finds
the shortest route to the target (straight line) and will end up hitting the
wall. Controlling manipulations are possibley the only things that electronics
can be used in conjunction w/ magic (I think).
--Head Case
Message no. 8
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fibre-Optics
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 13:31:33 EST
>>>>> On Mon, 08 Nov 1993 11:28:34 -0500 (EST), "Using your parents
money
>>>>> to make the world a cleaner, a safer, and a generally more fun place
>>>>> to live" <GMESSER%ALBION.bitnet@*****.nic.SURFnet.nl>
said:

GMESSER> What happens if a mage has cybereye's, a display link, and a data
GMESSER> jack. Can he then plug into security cameras and cast spells at
GMESSER> people he sees. Since the cameras would now simply be an
GMESSER> extension of his cybereye's, this should work.

No, because he didn't pay Essence for the cameras.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat
ask about rat-pgp.el v1.63 PGP Public Key Block available upon request
||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||
I have one prejudice, and that is against stupidity. Use your mind, think!
--Zoner <megazone@***.wpi.edu>
Message no. 9
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fibre-Optics
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 19:10:22 GMT
>What happens if a mage has cybereye's, a display link, and a data jack.
>Can he then plug into security cameras and cast spells at people he sees.
>Since the cameras would now simply be an extension of his cybereye's, this
>should work.

No. Unless he pays Essence for the cameras, the network linking them, etc :)

J Roberson
Message no. 10
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fibre-Optics
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 21:37:16 EST
>>>>> On Tue, 9 Nov 1993 12:04:40 +0930 (CST), Robert Watkins
>>>>> <bob@**.ntu.edu.au> said:

GMESSER> What happens if a mage has cybereye's, a display link, and a data
GMESSER> jack. Can he then plug into security cameras and cast spells at
GMESSER> people he sees. Since the cameras would now simply be an
GMESSER> extension of his cybereye's, this should work.

>> No, because he didn't pay Essence for the cameras.

bob> He doesn't pay essence for the cybereye's either, when you get right
bob> down to it. What he pays essence for is the removal of his own eyes,
bob> the installation of the cybernetic interface, and the hardware that
bob> interprets the electronic impulses into a form his brain can
bob> understand. What should it matter where the cameras are??

Wrong. He pays Essence for all of the above, plus the cyber-eyes
themselves. This is the "official" ruling on the topic. Anything else is a
house rule.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat
ask about rat-pgp.el v1.63 PGP Public Key Block available upon request
||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||
Once upon a time, there was a sweet, singing dinosaur named Barney. One
sunny day, Barney decided to take his friend Baby Bop to Jurassic Park...
--Alexandra Bost <alex@***.sas.com>
Message no. 11
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Fibre-Optics
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 12:01:27 +0930
[Example about cybereyes deleted... ]
>
>Gang one thing we are forgetting here: LOS. to quote an example from the book:
>if you are using a mirror and standing behind a wall to see your target. when
>you cast the spell it will not "bounce" off the mirror to the target, it
finds
>the shortest route to the target (straight line) and will end up hitting the
>wall. Controlling manipulations are possibley the only things that electronics
>can be used in conjunction w/ magic (I think).
>--Head Case
>
Yah, the spell goes in a straight line. This means a damaging manipulation will
splatter against the wall, but a combat spell will still be astral, and unless
this wall is something really neat, it just ignores it and fries the target.


--
Robert Watkins bob@******.cs.ntu.edu.au
Geek Code: GCS d-(?) p---@ c++++ !l u+ e+(e-)(e*) m+(m-) s-/* n-(n---) h++(h*)
f g+ w+ t++ r+(r--) y+
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 12
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Fibre-Optics
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 12:04:40 +0930
Rat says:
>
>>>>>> On Mon, 08 Nov 1993 11:28:34 -0500 (EST), "Using your
parents money
>>>>>> to make the world a cleaner, a safer, and a generally more fun
place
>>>>>> to live" <GMESSER%ALBION.bitnet@*****.nic.SURFnet.nl>
said:
>
>GMESSER> What happens if a mage has cybereye's, a display link, and a data
>GMESSER> jack. Can he then plug into security cameras and cast spells at
>GMESSER> people he sees. Since the cameras would now simply be an
>GMESSER> extension of his cybereye's, this should work.
>
>No, because he didn't pay Essence for the cameras.
>
He doesn't pay essence for the cybereye's either, when you get right down to
it.
What he pays essence for is the removal of his own eyes, the installation of
the cybernetic interface, and the hardware that interprets the electronic
impulses into a form his brain can understand. What should it matter where the
cameras are??


--
Robert Watkins bob@******.cs.ntu.edu.au
Geek Code: GCS d-(?) p---@ c++++ !l u+ e+(e-)(e*) m+(m-) s-/* n-(n---) h++(h*)
f g+ w+ t++ r+(r--) y+
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 13
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@***.GWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fibre-Optics
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 15:03:36 -0500
GMESSER%ALBION.bitnet.@*****.nic.SURFnet.nl asked...

> What happens if a mage has cybereye's, a display link, and a data jack.
> Can he then plug into security cameras and cast spells at people he sees.
> Since the cameras would now simply be an extension of his cybereye's, this
> should work.

Well, my friendly neighborhood Shadowrun GM (you can contact him as
rasputin@***.umd.edu) wouldn't allow it...his reasoning is that cybernetic
eyes still act pretty much the same as biological eyes, but when jacked
into something else the brain is only being fooled into thinking its
seeing normally.
But, since not everybody will agree with this, let me point out two more
things, directly from me:
Firstly, any mage who gets cybered is a less powerful mage, due to
the nature of Cybernetics and Magic in Shadowrun.
Secondly, this question relates directly to the NATURE of magic,
which (if not described in the rulebook itself) really has to be up to the
GM and decided by situation.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Fibre-Optics, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!