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Message no. 1
From: Graeme Collin <graeme@****.CO.UK>
Subject: Firearms Calibers
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 12:29:11 GMT
Has anyone compiled a set of tables (or whatever) to convert
standard (real life) firearms calibers into Shadowrun damage
code format (preferably both SR1 and SR2) ? (For instance,
what would .40 S&W in a handgun convert to ? , and so on).
If these conversions do exist, where do I get them, either
via anon ftp of email ?

Thanx in advance.

Graeme Collin.
(The Neurotic Fish)

-------------------+----------------------------------------------------
Graeme Collin. | "There's those that know,
| There's those that don't know,
graeme@****.co.uk | And there's those that don't know they don't know"
| - Whitbread Best Scotch Beer Ad!
-------------------+----------------------------------------------------
Message no. 2
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Firearms Calibers
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 14:03:38 -0500
>>>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 94 12:29:11 GMT, graeme@****.co.uk (Graeme Collin)
>>>>> said:

GC> Has anyone compiled a set of tables (or whatever) to convert
GC> standard (real life) firearms calibers into Shadowrun damage
GC> code format (preferably both SR1 and SR2)?

Won't work. Why? SR damage codes take into account (at least they look
like they do) not only bullet caliber, but barrel length and special load
types, all of which can affect actual muzzle velocity and energy. That's
why two different weapons using the same round type get different damage
values.

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| To avenge/This is the Pact --Blue Oyster Cult, ``Vengeance (The Pact)'' |
|||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ||||
Message no. 3
From: Chris Yang <cyang@*****.UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: Firearms Calibers
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 15:31:27 -0800
On Thu, 20 Jan 1994, Richard Pieri wrote:

> >>>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 94 12:29:11 GMT, graeme@****.co.uk (Graeme
Collin)
> >>>>> said:
>
> GC> Has anyone compiled a set of tables (or whatever) to convert
> GC> standard (real life) firearms calibers into Shadowrun damage
> GC> code format (preferably both SR1 and SR2)?
>
> Won't work. Why? SR damage codes take into account (at least they look
> like they do) not only bullet caliber, but barrel length and special load
> types, all of which can affect actual muzzle velocity and energy. That's
> why two different weapons using the same round type get different damage
> values.
>

I've ALWAYS felt that this was a flaw in the combat system.
Take two guns with a similar barrel length firing the same
ammunition and the velocities tend to be similar (unless the
barrel tolerances in one are quite poor or there is a lot of
slop in the lockup. And I mean a LOT of slop).

If a specific gun consistently produced higher velocities
with the same size barrel as a competitor gun, then everybody
today would be using 'Brand X Super Stopper' guns instead
of arguing over whether Glock is better than Sig.

Besides, just about all handguns these days are of similar
barrel length anyways; it's a compromise between good
sight radius, concealability, handling and ammo capacity.

My opinions, my .02.
Chris



----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Yang cyang@*****.ubc.ca
University of British Columbia cyang@******.botany.ubc.ca
Dept of Botany
Message no. 4
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Firearms Calibers
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 19:15:27 -0500
>>>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 1994 15:31:27 -0800 (PST), Chris Yang
>>>>> <cyang@*****.ubc.ca> said:

CY> I've ALWAYS felt that this was a flaw in the combat system.

It's not a flaw in the system, it's a flaw in the ratings that firearms
have been given. A full-sized Uzi fires the exact same ammunition as the
mini-Uzi does, but it has a higer muzzle energy and thus does more damage
(I'm talking real-world here) because of the longer barrel. Up to a
certain point, a longer barrel means that propellant gasses have more time
to accellerate the bullet. Greater accelleration means more energy, which
means more damage.

Which is why I want to find some kind of formula to convert BTRC's 3G^3
damage values into Shadowrun damage values. The problem is that SR's codes
are quite firmly in the ``it looks good to us'' category and thus are
really lousy for curve fitting.

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Message no. 5
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@********.CLARK.NET>
Subject: Re: Firearms Calibers
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 19:42:13 -0500
On Thu, 20 Jan 1994, Graeme Collin wrote:

> Has anyone compiled a set of tables (or whatever) to convert
> standard (real life) firearms calibers into Shadowrun damage
> code format (preferably both SR1 and SR2) ? (For instance,
> what would .40 S&W in a handgun convert to ? , and so on).
> If these conversions do exist, where do I get them, either
> via anon ftp of email

I don't know if anyone has done it online but Fasa put out a book some
years ago that pretty much does what you are asking it is called MARS -
It was an attempt at a generic ranges firepower sort of source book, it
was put out in '81 or so, I just pickes up a copy in excellent shape for
$2 or $3, and I know where at least 1 more copy is if someone is
interested let me know and we can work something out....Non-Profit of course

-----------GRANITE
Message no. 6
From: Chris Yang <cyang@*****.UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: Firearms Calibers
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 09:13:41 -0800
On Thu, 20 Jan 1994, Richard Pieri wrote:

>
> It's not a flaw in the system, it's a flaw in the ratings that firearms
> have been given. A full-sized Uzi fires the exact same ammunition as the
> mini-Uzi does, but it has a higer muzzle energy and thus does more damage
> (I'm talking real-world here) because of the longer barrel. Up to a
> certain point, a longer barrel means that propellant gasses have more time
> to accellerate the bullet. Greater accelleration means more energy, which
> means more damage.
>
I agree that a longer barrel length should result in increased
velocity and wound damage, but I don't think that (in terms of
game mechanics) an additional inch on a 5 inch barrel should
translate into a higher damage code. Even between different
makes/models of firearms barrel length may vary slightly but
velocity differences are not huge (everybody makes their
barrels to the same specs).

Between firearms of similar size, there is no reason why you
shouldn't be able to use some standardized damage table.
(Providing they use the same calibre)

Chris

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Yang cyang@*****.ubc.ca
University of British Columbia cyang@******.botany.ubc.ca
Dept of Botany
Message no. 7
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Firearms Calibers
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 14:51:24 -0500
>>>>> On Fri, 21 Jan 1994 09:13:41 -0800 (PST), Chris Yang
>>>>> <cyang@*****.ubc.ca> said:

CY> I agree that a longer barrel length should result in increased velocity
CY> and wound damage, but I don't think that (in terms of game mechanics)
CY> an additional inch on a 5 inch barrel should translate into a higher
CY> damage code.

Actually, it /should/. The energy difference is /significant/. The
standard Uzi has a barrel length of 26 cm, a muzzle velocity of 400 m/s,
and a muzzle energy of 637 Joules. The mini-Uzi has a barrel length of
19.7 cm (6.3 cm shorter, or 2.48 inches), a muzzle velocity of 350 m/s (50
meters/second slower), and a muzzle energy of 488 Joules (a difference of
149 Joules). That's an energy difference of more than 20%.

Ok, let's take another example, since you're looking at handguns (with a 5
cm barel as an average). Take two 9x19mm handguns, the Smith & Wesson ASP
and the Beretta M92SB. The ASP has a barrel length of 8.3 cm (3.25 in), a
muzzle velocity of 347 m/s, and a muzzle energy of 480 Joules. The M92SB
has a barrel length of 12.5 cm (about 5 in, 1.6 in longer), a muzzle
velocity of 390 m/s, and a muzzle energy of 606 Joules (a difference of 126
Joules, or about 20%).

CY> Even between different makes/models of firearms barrel length may vary
CY> slightly but velocity differences are not huge (everybody makes their
CY> barrels to the same specs).

No, they do /not/. If you believe this, then you are horribly misinformed.
Barrel lengths vary significantly between different models, not just
makers. Beretta makes handguns with barrels ranging from about 8 cm to
nearly 13 cm, for example. There are reasons for different barrel lengths,
most notably weight and size. A smaller weapon is easier to conceal, but
is less accurate and has a lower muzzle energy for the same caliber round
as a larger barrel.

CY> Between firearms of similar size, there is no reason why you shouldn't
CY> be able to use some standardized damage table. (Providing they use the
CY> same calibre)

Don't take this as a flame, but you really do not know what you're talking
about. Unfortunately, the guys at FASA seem to know about as much as you
do, which is why the firearms tables are badly broken in the first place.
There are a copule of gaming-related books you should take a look at. The
Compendium of Modern Firearms, from R.Talsorian Games is a wonderful
reference book written by Kevin Dockery (author of The Morrow Project and
has a Class III Gunsmith classification so he knows what he's talking
about). And the BTRC's 3G^3 and More Guns! by Greg Porter (who's
credentials aren't as impressive as Kevin's but his math is accurate).

NOTE: Some terms

Barrel length refers to the length of the barrel, from chamber to muzzle,
not overall weapon length which can vary significantly.

Muzzle velocity is the velocity of the round as it leaves the muzzle of the
weapon.

Muzzle energy is measured in Joules, a unit of energy. 1 Joule = 1
Watt/second, or 1.36 Joules = 1 foot-pound.

All four weapons listed fire 9x19mm NATO ammunition.

|||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ||||
| Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/USER/ratinox |
| GAT d@ -p+ c++ !l u+ e+(*) m-(+) s n---(+) h-- f !g(+) w+ t- r+ y+ |
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| ``hgiH nO eriF'' ,OLE-- |
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Message no. 8
From: Chris Yang <cyang@*****.UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: Firearms Calibers
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 16:15:43 -0800
On Fri, 21 Jan 1994, Richard Pieri wrote:

> >>>>> On Fri, 21 Jan 1994 09:13:41 -0800 (PST), Chris Yang
> >>>>> <cyang@*****.ubc.ca> said:
>
> CY> I agree that a longer barrel length should result in increased velocity
> CY> and wound damage, but I don't think that (in terms of game mechanics)
> CY> an additional inch on a 5 inch barrel should translate into a higher
> CY> damage code.
>
> Actually, it /should/. The energy difference is /significant/. The
> standard Uzi has a barrel length of 26 cm, a muzzle velocity of 400 m/s,
> and a muzzle energy of 637 Joules. The mini-Uzi has a barrel length of
> 19.7 cm (6.3 cm shorter, or 2.48 inches), a muzzle velocity of 350 m/s (50

I would agree that the 50 m/s (150 fps) would seem to make a big
difference. Some commercial ammunition types have variations of
100 fps from shot to shot, and 50-60 fps is about average.

Although I don't disagree that longer barrel lengths result in higher
velocities, I think that anyone who goes by kinetic energy alone
in calculating stopping power is making a mistake.
This is one of the factors behind the 9mm vs .45ACP debate, and even
the slow heavy bullet (147 gr subsonic 9mm) vs the light fast bullet
(115 gr +P 9mm).

>
>
> CY> Even between different makes/models of firearms barrel length may vary
> CY> slightly but velocity differences are not huge (everybody makes their
> CY> barrels to the same specs).
>
> No, they do /not/. If you believe this, then you are horribly misinformed.

Sorry, by specs, I was referring to chamber size, internal diameter
and rifling, not barrel length. This should be fairly obvious.
9mm is about the same size as .357 or .38 Special, but bullet
diameter is off by a measly .001 inch. This is huge in terms of
tolerances and can spell the difference between being able to chamber
a round and not.

Consider the 9mm vs the .38 Super (tapered vs straight wall case).
Using the wrong one in the other can result catastrophic failure
(ie blown gun) and the bullet size is again only different by .001 inch.

> Barrel lengths vary significantly between different models, not just
> makers. Beretta makes handguns with barrels ranging from about 8 cm to
> nearly 13 cm, for example. There are reasons for different barrel lengths,
> most notably weight and size. A smaller weapon is easier to conceal, but

Obviously, but compare a full size CZ (5.25") Glock (5.25") Colt
Govt Model (5") barrel and you will find that for full size
firearms, barrel size is relatively constant. For the CZ
long slide, barrel difference is by a half inch and the compact is
only an inch shorter.
>
> CY> Between firearms of similar size, there is no reason why you shouldn't
> CY> be able to use some standardized damage table. (Providing they use the
> CY> same calibre)
>
There are some caveats that we use in our system:
holdouts (ie compacts) reduce power level by one.
Subgun barrels increase power level by one (we felt that a 1"
difference in barrel size should translate to a full power level when
shot to shot variation was also verhy high) but no higher (You can
only increase velocity so much by increasing barrel length)

Chris


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Yang cyang@*****.ubc.ca
University of British Columbia cyang@******.botany.ubc.ca
Dept of Botany
Message no. 9
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Firearms Calibers
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 12:06:03 -0500
>>>>> On Fri, 21 Jan 1994 16:15:43 -0800 (PST), Chris Yang
>>>>> <cyang@*****.ubc.ca> said:

[munch]
CY> Although I don't disagree that longer barrel lengths result in higher
CY> velocities, I think that anyone who goes by kinetic energy alone
CY> in calculating stopping power is making a mistake.

Which is the reason all the weapons I used as examples use the exact same
round, the NATO 9x19mm. Given that all other factors are equal (bullet
mass, diameter & cross section, powder mass, etc.), projectile energy (and
thus velocity) becomes the primary variable in differing amounts of damage.
Energy vs. diameter does cause a trade-off; the .45 ACP will deliver more
energy to the target than the 9x19mm NATO round, however the 9mm has better
armor penetration characteristics.

[munch]

|||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ||||
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| GAT d@ -p+ c++ !l u+ e+(*) m-(+) s n---(+) h-- f !g(+) w+ t- r+ y+ |
| Good, bad... I'm the guy with the gun. --Ashe, ``Army of Darkness'' |
|||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ||||
Message no. 10
From: Chris Yang <cyang@*****.UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: Firearms Calibers
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 14:49:10 -0800
On Mon, 24 Jan 1994, Richard Pieri wrote:

[SNIP]

>
> Which is the reason all the weapons I used as examples use the exact same
> round, the NATO 9x19mm. Given that all other factors are equal (bullet
> mass, diameter & cross section, powder mass, etc.), projectile energy (and
> thus velocity) becomes the primary variable in differing amounts of damage.

OK, I'm beginning to see your point. Assuming that (in a perfect world)
all other factors are constant, a higher velocity will result from
a longer barrel and will result in higher kinetic energy.

But the question is, at what point does the increased kinetic energy
result in a higher power level? One could simply state that using
a longer barrel in the standard Shadowrun combat system will result
in a higher power level.

How would you handle a player who wanted to install a custom
8 inch barrel crafted by a master machinist from a barrel blank?


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Yang cyang@*****.ubc.ca
University of British Columbia cyang@******.botany.ubc.ca
Dept of Botany
Message no. 11
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Firearms Calibers
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 21:37:37 -0500
>>>>> On Mon, 24 Jan 1994 14:49:10 -0800 (PST), Chris Yang
>>>>> <cyang@*****.ubc.ca> said:

CY> OK, I'm beginning to see your point. Assuming that (in a perfect
CY> world) all other factors are constant, a higher velocity will result
CY> from a longer barrel and will result in higher kinetic energy.

Good, then I am making some sense :).

CY> But the question is, at what point does the increased kinetic energy
CY> result in a higher power level? One could simply state that using a
CY> longer barrel in the standard Shadowrun combat system will result in a
CY> higher power level.

That, my friend, is the difficult part. I have yet to see any kind of
formula or mechanic that provides reasonable results. As I said early on,
the guys at FASA used the ``it looks good enough to us'' method of setting
their damage codes, which makes it extremely difficult to fit new things
into their ``curve.'' They've got too many curve-breakers in there to get
a smooth fit. That, and the two-code Power/Damage codes put lots of
hiccups into the works. Ie, which is more powerful, a weapon with a damage
code of 5L or 3M (given 6 dice to resist each one, you will average enough
successes to stage the damage below L).

The other problem is how do you go about factoring a weapon's inherent
accuracy (or lack therof) into the equation? Does a weapon's Power factor
it's accuracy (more accurate weapons are harder to dodge)? Or is there
something else that needs to be done?

CY> How would you handle a player who wanted to install a custom
CY> 8 inch barrel crafted by a master machinist from a barrel blank?

Well, for a single instance, I would probably just make a guestimate based
on existing firearms. Most likely I would attempt to find another weapon
in the same caliber with a similar barrel length to the new weapon's barrel
length, and use it's damage code. If custom firearms became a common
thing, then I'd probably work overtime trying to devise something that
would let me use 3G^3 to design SR weapons and rebuild/convert the existing
weapons to 3G^3 numbers. Once that was complete, I'd take the weapon being
modified, plug the new barrel length into the appropriate spreadsheet, and
see what damage codes get spat out.

|||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ||||
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| GAT d@ -p+ c++ !l u+ e+(*) m-(+) s n---(+) h-- f !g(+) w+ t- r+ y+ |
| It is a proud and lonely thing to be a Stainless Steel Rat. |
| --``Slippery'' Jim DiGriz |
|||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ||||
Message no. 12
From: Chris Yang <cyang@*****.UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: Firearms Calibers
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 08:51:39 -0800
On Mon, 24 Jan 1994, Richard Pieri wrote:

<<crunch>>

> into their ``curve.'' They've got too many curve-breakers in there to get
> a smooth fit. That, and the two-code Power/Damage codes put lots of
> hiccups into the works. Ie, which is more powerful, a weapon with a damage
> code of 5L or 3M (given 6 dice to resist each one, you will average enough
> successes to stage the damage below L).

This is one of the problems we ran into. We used an estimate of how
much damage a typical smallarm might do if "point shot" at by an
average level marksman.
The result was a 6M damage code for a 9mm and a 7M damage code for
a .45 (Resolved the .45 vs 9mm argument that was revived by some of
the players).
Using these as a base, we tried to fit in other calibres as well.
Admittedly, the system has serious problems with weapons calibre
extremes, but since the players most typically use medium calibre
weapons (9mm to .44 magnum equivalent caseless/cased) the system
works ok.

>
> The other problem is how do you go about factoring a weapon's inherent
> accuracy (or lack therof) into the equation? Does a weapon's Power factor
> it's accuracy (more accurate weapons are harder to dodge)? Or is there
> something else that needs to be done?

In the time frame that combat occurs in, weapon accuracy is going
to be inherently greater than shooter accuracy. Damage code should not
affect dodging. We use a base 4 to dodge (using combat pool only)
modified by +1 per round in a burst. If attacker successes are
reduced to 0, then the bullet misses. Successes are used
normally by the attacker to stage damage and the target must resist.
A target may not use combat pool for dodging and to resist on the
same attack.
>
> length, and use it's damage code. If custom firearms became a common
> thing, then I'd probably work overtime trying to devise something that

In our world, a Shadowrunner without their own Black Chromed,
engraved highly-tuned loaded to the gills custom nightmare is
a nobody. One player even uses cased ammunition marked with
his own custom headstamp to "spread his rep".
Our system does not work completely, but as long as the players
are reasonable about what they carry, we're fine; everybody
basically uses the same damage code weapon.

Chris


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Yang cyang@*****.ubc.ca
University of British Columbia cyang@******.botany.ubc.ca
Dept of Botany
Message no. 13
From: Wrath of God <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Firearms Calibers
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 16:42:47 -0600
> One player even uses cased ammunition marked with
> his own custom headstamp to "spread his rep".

That's a good way to get caught, if the GM plays the police as smart.

>Our system does not work completely, but as long as the players
>are reasonable about what they carry, we're fine; everybody
>basically uses the same damage code weapon.

Sort of obviates the need for custom weapons in the first place.
Whay not just keep the same stats but give the damn thing a cool name and
history. Harking back to D&D stories, one of my PCs' most beloved weapons
was a sword. A non-magical sword, with no bonuses to hit or for damage.
I just gave it a name lineage, history, etc, and its owner continued to use
it even when he could have taken magical weapons because It Was Cool.

You don't need new rules; you just need to role-play the characters more
(which is what you've done if everyone has pretty much the same
damage code).


J Roberson
Message no. 14
From: Joseph Cotton <Joseph.Cotton@*******.OIT.UNC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Firearms Calibers
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 21:10:58 EST
On Mon, 24 Jan 1994, Richard Pieri wrote:

> the guys at FASA used the ``it looks good enough to us'' method of setting
> their damage codes,

Actually, I get the impression they used the LGTU (looks good to us) method
for setting _everything_.

> If custom firearms became a common
> thing, then I'd probably work overtime trying to devise something that
> would let me use 3G^3 to design SR weapons and rebuild/convert the existing
> weapons to 3G^3 numbers. Once that was complete, I'd take the weapon being
> modified, plug the new barrel length into the appropriate spreadsheet, and
> see what damage codes get spat out.

Hah! I can see it now: There's already at least two people that I know
of, besides myself, using GURPS Vehicles because the ones in SR are so
badly broke. Next others (beside yourself) will start re-designing the
weapons to make more sense.

I like their ideas and backgrounds. It's just their execution often leaves
much to be desired.

> | It is a proud and lonely thing to be a Stainless Steel Rat. |
> | --``Slippery'' Jim DiGriz |

Ah, "Slippery" Jim. Truely an inspiration to us all. :)

Joe Cotton
Message no. 15
From: Joseph Cotton <Joseph.Cotton@*******.OIT.UNC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Firearms Calibers
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 21:18:30 EST
On Tues, 25 Jan 1994, J Roberson wrote:

> Sort of obviates the need for custom weapons in the first place.
> Whay not just keep the same stats but give the damn thing a cool name and
[deleted]
>
> You don't need new rules; you just need to role-play the characters more
> (which is what you've done if everyone has pretty much the same
> damage code).

On a sort of related note, I think this is sort of the reason behind the
lack of vehicle variety in SR. Really, there are only so many different
classes of vehicles, only differing in price and number and type of
options. If you want a new car, give one of the present ones a new
name, change the description and price a bit, and voila!

Joe Cotton
Message no. 16
From: Legion <mloseke@*****.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Firearms Calibers
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 09:20:06 -0700
> Next others (beside yourself) will start re-designing the
> weapons to make more sense.
>
> I like their ideas and backgrounds. It's just their execution often leaves
> much to be desired.
>

With all this talk about a beloved subject (firearms) I just had to respond
with SWO's solution to this dilemma.

What we have done as a group, with the leadership of The Grand Poobah of SWO,
is to NOT change the design or damage caused by firearms, but to change
the firearm and hand-to-hand combat system. Basically, we just upped the
lethality by using a hit-location chart with corresponding damage codes for
different areas of the body. For instance: if you shoot someone in the
forehead, whether at point-blank or in a combat situation, with a light pistol
or a heavy pistol, there's a good chance that you're gonna croak. And, by
the same reason, if you catch a glancing shot in the thigh, you're not going
to have your leg blown off; you might not even notice it in the heat of
combat.

With that said, one can understand that bickering about muzzle velocities
and barell lengths, while still being a good subject, is reduced to a null
argument when using damage by location instead of an anonymous location
"hit point" system.

Plus, having the hit locations adds alot of flavor to the game, because
when you get shot or hit, you know exactly where the wound is. It also
makes called shots and aiming a playable option.
______________________________________________________________________
| Mike Loseke -- Students for War & Oppression -- Minister of Death |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| MLoseke@*****.ColoState.Edu | Behold, here cometh the Dreamer. |
| ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | Let us slay him, and we shall see |
| .sig by: Legion Systems, Inc. | what will become of his dreams. |
\_______________________________/ \__________________________________/
Message no. 17
From: Wrath of God <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Firearms Calibers
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 17:18:29 +0600
>For instance: if *you* shoot someone in the
>forehead, whether at point-blank or in a combat situation, with a light pistol
>or a heavy pistol, there's a good chance that *you're* gonna croak.

I would hope not. I shoot the gun at someone else and *I* die? Good idea
for gun control.

BTW, for tose of you who want *complete* designs for weapons &
vehicles, you may want to check out GDW's Fire, Fusion & Steel.
While primarily for the Traveller Game, it does cover vehicle
construction for all tech levels (including Shadowrun's) and also
features a weapon design system that is based on that in the
ever-popular 3G3 that has been mentioned so often here.


J Roberson

Further Reading

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Thwap!