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Message no. 1
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 10:58:31 -0500
I've decided to throw my hat into the arena, and plunk down my two
cents about the treatment of firearms in Shadowrun. I have to agree with
a few other who've posted saying that the light pistols in the games are
all but useless. This is primarily due to a design flaw when the weapons
were conceived. As anyone who knows anything about weapons can attest
to, why should rounds of the same calibur, when fired from diferent
guns, yield different damages? At the same distance most handgun battles
take place, rifle rounds will go thru car doors, and yet they are
consistently rated below heavy handguns (this is even taking into
account the magnum upgrade to FirePower of all handguns from 1st
edition; rifle rounds can be upgraded,too).
Now, the aspiring GM can do a number of things. He can use the
weapons as listed, and deal with it. He can devise his own weapon stats,
which I and I'm sure many others have done(note: if you're going for
accuracy in your depictions, check out a couple of articles on
ammunition and firearms first. And try to keep it simple. Wholescale
revisions are, unless you're really dedicated, usually not worth it,
and you should just use another game system). If you need any help or
ideas, I'd be glad to be of some service. Just e-mail me at
adder@******.deshaw.com.
The trick is to try and balance realism with game playability. And
to have fun.
Message no. 2
From: Mark McLaughlin <mmclaugh@*******.EENG.DCU.IE>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 17:32:31 -0800
Fisher, Victor wrote:
>
fle rounds can be upgraded,too).
> Now, the aspiring GM can do a number of things. He can use the
> weapons as listed, and deal with it. He can devise his own weapon stats...

I totally agree but their are two problems with that;
1. how can you be sure that you are maintaining the balance of the SRII
system. To be honest I would`nt trust myself to make changes like that.

2. I personally think that although I just spent the last 15 minutes
writing mail condemning the light pistol, they probably should be left
in the game as they are. I mean what weapons would you have the street
punk use and lets face it most people (not runners) even today say
joining a gun club would use a smaller calibre gun rather than a .44
Magnum!! My main quible with the light pistol is that its not a
"business" waepon! When the runners have a REAL job to do its not what
they use. Also maybe someone cant actually afford anything bigger!!!

Mark (Merlin) McLaughlin
Message no. 3
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 13:14:23 -0500
>Mark wrote:
>
>
>>I totally agree but their are two problems with that;
>>1. how can you be sure that you are maintaining the balance of the SRII
>>system. To be honest I would`nt trust myself to make changes like that.
>
>>2. I personally think that although I just spent the last 15 minutes
>>writing mail condemning the light pistol, they probably should be left
>>in the game as they are. I mean what weapons would you have the street
>>punk use and lets face it most people (not runners) even today say
>>joining a gun club would use a smaller calibre gun rather than a .44
>>Magnum!! My main quible with the light pistol is that its not a
>>"business" waepon! When the runners have a REAL job to do its not what
>>they use. Also maybe someone cant actually afford anything bigger!!!
>
>>Mark (Merlin) McLaughlin

Your points are valid. I usually playtest them for a game or two
(remember, get your players consent first), and based on their
performance, adjust them accordingly. As for the average street punk,
most of the ones I've seen (really) pack 9mm (the New York Police Force,
I believe, only just recently upgraded to 9mm semi-autos over revolvers,
to keep up). And there's a lot of .38 's and even a few heavier guns out
there. (I seem to remember a gangland style shooting a couple of years
ago, where the guy was shot with a Desert Eagle, several times! Truly
scary stuff. But enough of all this grim, gritty stuff (even if it's a
cyberpunk game). If everyone involved agrees, I say give it a try. And
you're right, the light pistol isn't a business weapon, or shouldn't
be(then again, how long as 007 been carrying around that dinky Walther
PPK and still breathing?)

Victor [Kohl, Ork physad gunslinger] Fisher
Message no. 4
From: James Paulsen <lowfyr@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 12:58:57 -0600
Mark McLaughlin wrote:

> 2. I personally think that although I just spent the last 15 minutes
> writing mail condemning the light pistol, they probably should be left
> in the game as they are. I mean what weapons would you have the street
> punk use and lets face it most people (not runners) even today say
> joining a gun club would use a smaller calibre gun rather than a .44
> Magnum!!

I would agree with the light pistol rules in SRII as they are for one
reason: I know a man who was shot seven times with a .25 caliber
Berretta and walked 18 blocks to the hospital. He said it hurt like
hell, but was not totally debilitating.

Granted, if he had been hit in a more vital area it might have killed
him instantly, but in game terms that would be reflected by an
exceptional dice roll. One of the rounds even skipped off his scalp
without penetrating.

But if you had no pistol, a light pistol might be the best alternative.


Jim
Message no. 5
From: Mark McLaughlin <mmclaugh@*******.EENG.DCU.IE>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 20:50:17 -0800
James Paulsen wrote:
>

>
> I would agree with the light pistol rules in SRII as they are for one
> reason: I know a man who was shot seven times with a .25 caliber
> Berretta and walked 18 blocks to the hospital. He said it hurt like
> hell, but was not totally debilitating.
>

All I can say is that if any pistol that fails to take out any
unarmoured individual with 7 rounds doesent deserve the name "pistol"!!!
If I wanted to mug someone and I had a choice between using that pistol
and a knife I`d go for the knife; It does more damage, its concealable,
granted its not ranged but you can stick it against someones throat and
most wont put up a fight!

I was just thinking, was that pistol by any chance a water pistol?!?!
I heard these new breed of super-soakers can pack quiet a punch!!!!

No but seriously (well maybe not so seriously!!) you would probably take
more damage from the recoil of an Ares Predator than a round from a
Walther Palm Pistol!

Mark (finding it hard to keep serious!) (Merlin) McLaughlin
Message no. 6
From: "ADAM B. TRELOAR" <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 09:58:45 +1000
[snip]

> cyberpunk game). If everyone involved agrees, I say give it a try. And
> you're right, the light pistol isn't a business weapon, or shouldn't
> be(then again, how long as 007 been carrying around that dinky Walther
> PPK and still breathing?)

Just for the record, our group used light pistols as standard for quite a
while. It IS a valid weapon, unless the GM gives every guard and cop a
secure jacket. We ran the odds, and as long as people were wearing
decent armor, rather than looking like a tank, the lethality of the game
barely changed. AND it had the added benefit that SWAT wasn't called
every time we stepped outside. The heaviest weapon my character packs
(admittedly he's a mage) is a "truckstopper" for when he's in REALLY
deep. (A truckstopper is a Super Warhawk with APDS. Good for stopping
trucks, hence the name.) Now, that's SIX (count them, six) rounds of
heavy damage. And it's noisy, too. So using lighter weapons are
useful. And quieter.

Oh, BTW, we do reasonable runs, too. No going around geeking the CEO of
Renraku or Aztech. It truly depends on whether you want a realistic
campaign or a heavy weapons game.

Guardian.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
So there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 7
From: Shane Courtrille <hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:18:21 +0000
> >>punk use and lets face it most people (not runners) even today say
> >>joining a gun club would use a smaller calibre gun rather than a .44
You are wrong on this count.. alot of ppl at the gunclub I go to use
.22s because they are good target shooters. Yes some ppl use .44s
and 9mm but by that point those ppl are very good shots... :)
Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca
Message no. 8
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 19:14:31 -0500
Hey, if it works for you. Personally, I tend to run games similiar
to what you'd see in movies like Mission Impossible, The Killer, Blade
Runner, etc, with a equal measure of action, intrigue, and suspense. And
even in the 'lightest' games I've seen or been apart of, unless the
person was an crack shot (my character included), a light pistol has
NEVER put down an opponent, and that's without armor (most of these
characters were starter archetypes, too). And if your character's a
mage, I'm surprised he even carries a gun (how often does he use it, and
is it the street sam's who really pull the weight in a gunfight?).
I'm not throwing stones or anything, so nobody get riled. I'm just
saying, it doesn't work for me. Besides, pistols like Walther PPK's or
the Shadowrun equivalent as far as I know, aren't widely used anymore in
real life (To little stopping power, and a high tendency to jam). Guns,
to oft phrase David Gerrold, are designed to stop someone. You choose a
weapon, not to be humane, but according to how hard you want to stop
them. (read dead, or highly discourage:-) And not everyone can get their
hands on APDS, HEAP, or Explosive rounds (at least not in my game). Most
of these are military grade, and I guess should be very difficult to
come by, so they can't (or shouldn't) be used as a perennial stopgap to
increase the power of a light pistol to make it viable. Or, maybe, I'm
wrong. Reasonable is in the eye of the beholder. Good gaming, Guardian.
>----------
>
>>Just for the record, our group used light pistols as standard for quite a
>>while. It IS a valid weapon, unless the GM gives every guard and cop a
>>secure jacket. We ran the odds, and as long as people were wearing
>>decent armor, rather than looking like a tank, the lethality of the game
>>barely changed. AND it had the added benefit that SWAT wasn't called
>>every time we stepped outside. The heaviest weapon my character >packs
>>(admittedly he's a mage) is a "truckstopper" for when he's in REALLY
>>deep. (A truckstopper is a Super Warhawk with APDS. Good for stopping
>>trucks, hence the name.) Now, that's SIX (count them, six) rounds of
>>heavy damage. And it's noisy, too. So using lighter weapons are
>>useful. And quieter.
>
>>Oh, BTW, we do reasonable runs, too. No going around geeking the CEO >of
>>Renraku or Aztech. It truly depends on whether you want a realistic
>>campaign or a heavy weapons game.
>
>>Guardian.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
> "Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
> So there."
>Adam Treloar aka Guardian
>s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au
>http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>
Message no. 9
From: Shane Courtrille <hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:42:48 +0000
> mage, I'm surprised he even carries a gun (how often does he use it, and
> is it the street sam's who really pull the weight in a gunfight?).

In my games the mages are as armed up as some other members.. they
may not be the best shoots.. but sometimes they need to use guns
(ROFL once had a player forget he was a mage for like half the game..
half way through.. the team is getting there ass kicked.... and hes
like.. "Wait a second.. I'm a mage ain't I?" funniest thing ever)
Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca
Message no. 10
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 19:44:59 -0500
HaHaHaHa;-)

>----------
>
>
>>In my games the mages are as armed up as some other members.. they
>>may not be the best shoots.. but sometimes they need to use guns
>>(ROFL once had a player forget he was a mage for like half the game..
>>half way through.. the team is getting there ass kicked.... and hes
>>like.. "Wait a second.. I'm a mage ain't I?" funniest thing ever)
>>Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca



"This is the kinda conversation that can only end in a gunshot!"
-----Doctor Franklin, Babylon 5 episode,'Atonement'.
Message no. 11
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 22:15:36 -0800
(Almost got caught by Mike's trick-reply-to setting.)

> 2. I personally think that although I just spent the last 15 minutes
> writing mail condemning the light pistol, they probably should be left
> in the game as they are. I mean what weapons would you have the street
> punk use and lets face it most people (not runners) even today say
> joining a gun club would use a smaller calibre gun rather than a .44
> Magnum!! My main quible with the light pistol is that its not a
> "business" waepon! When the runners have a REAL job to do its not what
> they use. Also maybe someone cant actually afford anything bigger!!!

Hah! My Druid wears a light pistol, but only ever used it once. Damned
thing is for show. It's also a nice little weapon to give to corp-types,
to let them think they can protect themselves with it.

<g>

--

Dvixen dvixen@********.com
"And I thought First Ones were rare." - Ivanova - Babylon 5
I have no sense of decency. That way, all my other senses are enhanced
Message no. 12
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 01:13:41 +0000
> From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
> Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun

> you're right, the light pistol isn't a business weapon, or shouldn't
> be(then again, how long as 007 been carrying around that dinky Walther
> PPK and still breathing?)

It depends. How many people (even in 2058) really wear decent body
armor all the time. Except for people looking for trouble (cops,
mob, runners on the job) most folks will forgo the discomfort of
wearing any body armor. The stuff ain't cottony soft, kids.

A light pistol should be more than enough in any chance encounter and
it wont get you in deep drek as quickly as the heavy stuff.

Of course, I use hit locations and an armor system to reflect that,
so you can disregard if you wish.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 13
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 01:13:41 +0000
> From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
> Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun

> real life (To little stopping power, and a high tendency to jam). Guns,
> to oft phrase David Gerrold, are designed to stop someone. You choose a

If I shoot a .38 near you, you're gonna stop, or at least hesitate.
If I were to hit you, you'd definately think twice about it. It
won't stop the drugged up psycho, but it will stop or scare off
anyone who cares about his life.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 14
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 17:52:21 +1100
> characters were starter archetypes, too). And if your character's a
> mage, I'm surprised he even carries a gun (how often does he use it, and
> is it the street sam's who really pull the weight in a gunfight?).

In general, the way we tned to play our games is that you don't use
magic unless it's the best solution. A gun kills a guy just as dead as a
manabolt, a gun doesn't give you drain, and the Star will be a lot nicer
to you for an unlicensed pistol than for an unlicensed Force 6 (or 8!)
spell.

We don't hold back on the magic when required, of course (I carry a
light pistol - and a Stun Missile 8!) but we tend to take the mundane
solution if there is one (despite the fact that of 8 characters, 4 are
spelltossers) - it gets you in less drek.

Lady Jestyr

-----------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect in a world full of icebergs
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
-----------------------------------------------
Remember, no matter what they say, you can
never have enough sugar. - Michael
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 15
From: Shawn Baumgartner <Breakdown@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 03:08:19 -0500
In response to mages carrying guns:

You don't expect a mage to sling spells all the time, do you? Sometimes
it's better to pull a trigger; no drain, same end result.

Shawn
"Don't worry, I'm good for another Mana Blast.. Take that!... Oh shi...
<flop>"

-----------------------------------------------------
Oh No!
Another damn page!
http://www.toptown.com/CENTRALPARK/DEOSYNE/
Ah what the hell; better than gardening!
Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 12:10:23 +0100
James Paulsen said on 12:58/ 3 Mar 97...

> I would agree with the light pistol rules in SRII as they are for one
> reason: I know a man who was shot seven times with a .25 caliber
> Berretta and walked 18 blocks to the hospital. He said it hurt like
> hell, but was not totally debilitating.

There are stories about this sort of thing with all kinds of calibers, not
just what in SR would be called "light pistol" rounds.

> But if you had no pistol, a light pistol might be the best alternative.

If only for threatening with. (What TN modifier is an aimed shot to the
eye, anyway? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Everyone expects a happy ending.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 12:10:23 +0100
Fisher, Victor said on 10:58/ 3 Mar 97...

> Now, the aspiring GM can do a number of things. He can use the
> weapons as listed, and deal with it. He can devise his own weapon stats,
> which I and I'm sure many others have done(note: if you're going for
> accuracy in your depictions, check out a couple of articles on
> ammunition and firearms first. And try to keep it simple. Wholescale
> revisions are, unless you're really dedicated, usually not worth it,
> and you should just use another game system).

One thing I've proposed a long time ago (but haven't used myself, even) is
to simply reduce heavy pistols to 6M, that puts them on the same level as
SMGs (which IMHO would fire the same type of round), and makes them less
powerful than rifles. Sniper rifles are also in need of adjustment,
probably to 9S or so, and with those two done the rest works out
reasonably well, IMHO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Everyone expects a happy ending.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 18
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 11:25:51 +0000
On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, Droopy wrote:

> It depends. How many people (even in 2058) really wear decent body
> armor all the time.
<snip>
> A light pistol should be more than enough in any chance encounter

Too true, against a TN of 6 with a Body of 3 the average pedestrian will
get no successes, whereas the firer should hopefully get 3 successes or so
- a complete success. So damage will likely be moderate or even serious if
4 successes are rolled to hit. More than enought for a character with
Professional rating of 2 to be effectively disposed of.

But then again you shouldn't expect to take people down with just one shot
unless you're a crack shot. Even James Bond (as he was mentionned) used
two shots to kill Dent in Dr No when the target was stationary and no more
than 3 yards away, with Bond having opportunity to aim.

Bond - Pistols at 8 say, aiming at a stationary target at close range
(TN:2) expects 6 - 7 successes. More than enough to stage the damage up to
Deadly.

The Digital Mage aka Grant Erswell - mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"Sadder still to watch it die, than never to have known it"
-Rush, Losing It
Message no. 19
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 14:09:25 +0000
On 4 Mar 97 at 3:08, Shawn Baumgartner wrote:

> In response to mages carrying guns:
> You don't expect a mage to sling spells all the time, do you? Sometimes
> it's better to pull a trigger; no drain, same end result.

> "Don't worry, I'm good for another Mana Blast.. Take that!... Oh shi...
> <flop>"
But you would have to raise yet another skill, which costs Karma,
which a magician does not have. The shaman I play (when I am not GMing
(*sigh*)) uses his rifles (he collects the damn things!) mostly for
show-off, and to clear LOS (shooting the window). His teammates
strictly forbid him on occasion to shoot anyone even remotly near them
- that's what a firearms skill of 3 does :-/

Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+------------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |Things that try to look |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ | like things often do |
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de | look more like things |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| than things. Well known|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | fact. - E.Weatherwax |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 20
From: Mark McLaughlin <mmclaugh@*******.EENG.DCU.IE>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:13:18 -0800
Shane Courtrille wrote:
>
> > >>punk use and lets face it most people (not runners) even today say
> > >>joining a gun club would use a smaller calibre gun rather than a .44
> You are wrong on this count.. alot of ppl at the gunclub I go to use
> .22s because they are good target shooters. Yes some ppl use .44s
> and 9mm but by that point those ppl are very good shots... :)
> Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca

I simply meant that the .44 may be too powerfull for some ppls liking.

Mark (Merlin) McLaughlin
Message no. 21
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 08:20:30 -0500
>Digital Mage said:
>>Too true, against a TN of 6 with a Body of 3 the average pedestrian will
>>get no successes, whereas the firer should hopefully get 3 successes or >so
>>- a complete success. So damage will likely be moderate or even serious >if
>>4 successes are rolled to hit. More than enought for a character with
>>Professional rating of 2 to be effectively disposed of.

I'm not arguing with your reasoning, just wanted to ask, why would
a gamer want to waste his character's time getting into gunfights with
unarmored, non-combatant civilians? It's not really much of a challenge.
While not every foe should be a James Bond, they shouldn't be so weak as
to represent no threat to the characterat all. I guess I feel great when
my character goes up against either superior odds or skill, and beats
them; like he's actually accomplished something. A man is measured by
the opponents he faces. But, I have gamed with people who like to run
heavy decked out cyberzombies against squatters with pistols [**sigh**].
Have I gotten off the subject? Probably so. Sorry.

Victor [Kohl, the Physad Ork Gunslinger, with the kung Fu Grip] Fisher a
gamer
>
Message no. 22
From: Mark McLaughlin <mmclaugh@*******.EENG.DCU.IE>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:34:50 -0800
Fisher, Victor wrote:
>
> >Digital Mage said:
> >>Too true, against a TN of 6 with a Body of 3 the average pedestrian will
> >>get no successes, whereas the firer should hopefully get 3 successes or
>so
> >>- a complete success. So damage will likely be moderate or even serious
>if
> >>4 successes are rolled to hit. More than enought for a character with
> >>Professional rating of 2 to be effectively disposed of.
>
> I'm not arguing with your reasoning, just wanted to ask, why would
> a gamer want to waste his character's time getting into gunfights with
> unarmored, non-combatant civilians? It's not really much of a challenge.
> While not every foe should be a James Bond, they shouldn't be so weak as
> to represent no threat to the characterat all. I guess I feel great when
> my character goes up against either superior odds or skill, and beats
> them; like he's actually accomplished something. A man is measured by
> the opponents he faces. But, I have gamed with people who like to run
> heavy decked out cyberzombies against squatters with pistols [**sigh**].
> Have I gotten off the subject? Probably so. Sorry.
>
> Victor [Kohl, the Physad Ork Gunslinger, with the kung Fu Grip] Fisher a
> gamer
> >

Exactly my point...
Message no. 23
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:38:25 GMT
"Fisher, Victor" writes

> even in the 'lightest' games I've seen or been apart of, unless the
> person was an crack shot (my character included), a light pistol has
> NEVER put down an opponent, and that's without armor (most of these
> characters were starter archetypes, too).
Thats more the SR system, you need 2 success with vitually any weapon
in SR to kill someone (short sust fire shotguns / panther cannons etc)
Basically its biassed towards average, crap shots will catch someone
a flesh wound. The BIG advantage is that you don't get the 1 in 100
chance of 'sorry you got shot in the head for max damage, your
characters dead, i don't care!' Realistic it might be but when the
aim of the game is to enjoy it rules that kill experienced characters
for no good reason other that bad luck simply spoil the game.

> And if your character's a
> mage, I'm surprised he even carries a gun (how often does he use it, and
> is it the street sam's who really pull the weight in a gunfight?).
Why carry a gun, simple, its very difficult to 'wave a manabolt at
someone', stick a nice pistol in his guts and he's far more likely to
become nice and meek. They are also a good solution to whenthe bad
guys have you magically out gunned, you have to save magic pool for
defense, fine so shoot them. Also initiate's Sheilding doesn't stop
bullets :)

Mark
Message no. 24
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 14:53:06 +0000
On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, Sascha Pabst wrote:


<snip bit about mages carrying guns>
> But you would have to raise yet another skill, which costs Karma,
> which a magician does not have. The shaman I play (when I am not GMing
> (*sigh*)) uses his rifles (he collects the damn things!) mostly for
> show-off, and to clear LOS (shooting the window). His teammates
> strictly forbid him on occasion to shoot anyone even remotly near them
> - that's what a firearms skill of 3 does :-/
Carrying a gun can still be a wise move - as people have already
mentionned simply pointing it at someone can stop them attacking. You just
have to look as if you can use it, you don't actually have to be abel to
use it.

But them not all players' mage characters follow teh idea of continually
learning new spells and increasing sorcery skills. My character Paris is a
sorcerer (actually a full magician but without conjuring skill) who was
trained as a security mage. His physical stats are all 4s, he has boosted
reflexes 1 and a smartlink and he runs the shadows as muscle - his magical
powers are his ace in the hole. He's not too bothered about increasing his
spell collection or his Magical Theory - he just needs to know enough to
cast that Paralyze spell. :)

The Digital Mage aka Grant Erswell - mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"Sadder still to watch it die, than never to have known it"
-Rush, Losing It
Message no. 25
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:42:18 +0000
> From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
> Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun

> I'm not arguing with your reasoning, just wanted to ask, why would
> a gamer want to waste his character's time getting into gunfights with
> unarmored, non-combatant civilians? It's not really much of a challenge.

That wasn't my point. My point was that with the exception of
someone on the job, there aren't many people wearing body armor. I'm
sure that most places outside of the barrens wouldn't even let you in
the door with body armor on.

You never know who (or what) you'll bump into on the way to the
stuffer shack.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 26
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:42:18 +0000
> From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
> Organization: Authors of OL.TXT
> Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun

> But you would have to raise yet another skill, which costs Karma,
> which a magician does not have. The shaman I play (when I am not GMing

Why? Even a firearms of 3 is enough most of the time. If the mage
decides to specialize in a particular weapon (not off base, IMHO)
then that 3 jumps to a 5. Why raise it beyond that?


-Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 27
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 16:07:11 -0500
Droopy wrote:

> > From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
> > Organization: Authors of OL.TXT
> > Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun

> > But you would have to raise yet another skill, which costs Karma,
> > which a magician does not have. The shaman I play (when I am not GMing

> Why? Even a firearms of 3 is enough most of the time. If the mage
> decides to specialize in a particular weapon (not off base, IMHO)
> then that 3 jumps to a 5. Why raise it beyond that?

Because when you figure in Vision Mods, Range Mods, Movement Mods, Wound
Mods, and Cover Mods, you can end up with some pretty improbably target
numbers. Then, figure in armor and see how much damage you do with a
three skill and one success...if you even get any at all.

You will find that when using ALL appropriate target numbers, gunfights
often fall into the "nearly impossible" category of target numbers
(10+).

*That's* why you want a skill higher than 3. :)

> -Droopy
> droopy@**.net

Justin :)
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 28
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 16:12:27 -0500
> Droopy says:
>
>>Why? Even a firearms of 3 is enough most of the time. If the mage
>>decides to specialize in a particular weapon (not off base, IMHO)
>>then that 3 jumps to a 5. Why raise it beyond that?
>
>
>>-Droopy
>>droopy@**.net

Then why bother raising any combat skill above 3 (or specialize to
5)? With an average of 3 dice in skill, and 3 dice from their combat
pool, you're still only talking on an average of 3 sucesses, which isn't
enough to stage a light pistol past medium. Better to take on the
opposition using a knife; even throwing it would do more damage. Gotta
go with Justin on this one. Besides, if my character's harrassed by a
bunch of civilian wannabees, the archetype street sam can usually take
them down, without using lethal force; preferably hand to hand ( now
that's a challenge). Lethal force doesn't always have to be an option
(and with a light pistol, it's not. HaHa.). Especially against
substandard opponents. As a deterrent (maybe firing it into the air) a
light pistol serves more of a purpose.

What was i talking about. I don't know!

Victor{Kohl, the ork physad gunslinger, martial artist, and sax
player}Fisher
Message no. 29
From: "ADAM B. TRELOAR" <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:05:30 +1000
> Hey, if it works for you. Personally, I tend to run games similiar
> to what you'd see in movies like Mission Impossible, The Killer, Blade
> Runner, etc, with a equal measure of action, intrigue, and suspense. And
> even in the 'lightest' games I've seen or been apart of, unless the
> person was an crack shot (my character included), a light pistol has
> NEVER put down an opponent, and that's without armor (most of these

Unless the goal is to kill the intended person, whether you kill them or
not is immaterial. Most people taking ANY wound at all will be thinking
about other things than shooting back at you. Guards have a higher
professional rating, so they would probably shoot back with the lighter
wounds. However, the point is that *IF* the GM is using the guards and
NPCs as real people, you don't have to take 'em out in one hit. Only
fanatics keep going until death. Everybody else will figure that doing
they're job isn't worth getting killed over.

> characters were starter archetypes, too). And if your character's a
> mage, I'm surprised he even carries a gun (how often does he use it, and

Quite often, actually. Why go around throwing off high force spells when
a gun can do the same job? Ammo generally turns out much cheaper than
carrying around a +whatever target number from the drain? Never mind
leaving your astral print everywhere for people to identify...

As far as I'm aware, in most SR games I've seen the mage is one of the
more heavily armed people. The sams generally more than pull their
weight, tho, because they get 2 actions at least, sometimes more. The
ordinary mage, however, is lucky to get more than 1.

> is it the street sam's who really pull the weight in a gunfight?).
> I'm not throwing stones or anything, so nobody get riled. I'm just
> saying, it doesn't work for me. Besides, pistols like Walther PPK's or
> the Shadowrun equivalent as far as I know, aren't widely used anymore in
> real life (To little stopping power, and a high tendency to jam). Guns,

I think you'll find they're still popular because it's easy to get a
licence to carry them. I'd like to see the average joe in SR get a
licence for a manhunter. Let alone anything heavier.

> to oft phrase David Gerrold, are designed to stop someone. You choose a
> weapon, not to be humane, but according to how hard you want to stop
> them. (read dead, or highly discourage:-) And not everyone can get their
> hands on APDS, HEAP, or Explosive rounds (at least not in my game). Most

Fair enough. The way it should be. But it IS available, although at
hideously expensive prices. My character has only been able to find 30
rounds or so of APDS. He's been around for quite a while game time, too.

> of these are military grade, and I guess should be very difficult to
> come by, so they can't (or shouldn't) be used as a perennial stopgap to
> increase the power of a light pistol to make it viable. Or, maybe, I'm
> wrong. Reasonable is in the eye of the beholder. Good gaming, Guardian.

Fair enough. For the record, too, I consider using a light pistol MORE
professional than using a heavier weapon, not less. If you can reliably
take out someone with a lighter weapon, you're more highly regarded.
After all, anyone can splatter someone with an assault cannon, but only
the truly competent can kill with the light stuff. And as I've said
before, light pistols make a hell of a lot less noise than other
weapons. If someone around here started using a desert eagle or
something similar, the cops would be here in less time, and in
greater numbers, than if someone was using a light pistol. It might be
different where you are, of course.

Silencers do wonders, as well.

Guardian.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
So there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 30
From: "ADAM B. TRELOAR" <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:12:17 +1000
> > In response to mages carrying guns:
> > You don't expect a mage to sling spells all the time, do you? Sometimes
> > it's better to pull a trigger; no drain, same end result.
>
> > "Don't worry, I'm good for another Mana Blast.. Take that!... Oh shi...
> > <flop>"
>
> But you would have to raise yet another skill, which costs Karma,
> which a magician does not have. The shaman I play (when I am not GMing
> (*sigh*)) uses his rifles (he collects the damn things!) mostly for
> show-off, and to clear LOS (shooting the window). His teammates
> strictly forbid him on occasion to shoot anyone even remotly near them
> - that's what a firearms skill of 3 does :-/

Firearms 3 is unreasonable?!? That's usually enough to ensure you hit,
which precludes hitting friends. If it was 0 or even 1, I'd understand,
but anyway...

IMHO, and the people I run with, investing 1+4+6+8= 19 karma in a decent
firearms skill is worth it, even for a mage. It generally avoids hitting
friends, ensures that the mage knows which end of the gun is which, and
can at least send rounds flying around the enemy, which generally
unnerves them no end. 19 karma seems to be a small price to pay. Add to
that you don't take drain from firing a gun...

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
So there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 31
From: "ADAM B. TRELOAR" <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:18:50 +1000
> I'm not arguing with your reasoning, just wanted to ask, why would
> a gamer want to waste his character's time getting into gunfights with
> unarmored, non-combatant civilians? It's not really much of a challenge.
> While not every foe should be a James Bond, they shouldn't be so weak as
> to represent no threat to the characterat all. I guess I feel great when
> my character goes up against either superior odds or skill, and beats
> them; like he's actually accomplished something. A man is measured by
> the opponents he faces. But, I have gamed with people who like to run
> heavy decked out cyberzombies against squatters with pistols [**sigh**].
> Have I gotten off the subject? Probably so. Sorry.

Because usually the target of wet-work is NOT high-karma NPCs. Sure,
they might have decent guards, but that's what *sneaking* past them is
for. If you go around blasting to smitherines all the guards at every
compound you hit, then expect the corps and Lone Star to start a
continent-wide manhunt for your character. Of course, I'm of the opinion
that most runs you get AREN'T wet-work. We also tend to try to keep the
death count down, too. Makes the corps less angry at you, and countrary
to what seems to be a popular belief here, the guards DON'T start hunting
you down because you managed to get by them. To them, it's an ordinary job,
not an excuse to kill those that are better than you are.

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
So there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 32
From: "ADAM B. TRELOAR" <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:27:36 +1000
> >>Why? Even a firearms of 3 is enough most of the time. If the mage
> >>decides to specialize in a particular weapon (not off base, IMHO)
> >>then that 3 jumps to a 5. Why raise it beyond that?
>
> Then why bother raising any combat skill above 3 (or specialize to
> 5)? With an average of 3 dice in skill, and 3 dice from their combat
> pool, you're still only talking on an average of 3 sucesses, which isn't
> enough to stage a light pistol past medium. Better to take on the

Simple: To be better than the others, esp. in HTH combat. And if you're
a mage, 3/5 firearms is generally enough. If you need more than that,
throw a spell at 'em. Mages, in general, seem to be less useful in
combat anyway, unless they have huge spells (with huge drain) that frag
everything within miles. Let the sams and adepts take the combat -
they're faster (generally), have better combat skills, and can take
damage with less side-effects. A mage takes even a light wound from a
gun is less competent for casting spells. So keep him back, summon
spirits and elementals, and use spells like invisibility, barrier spells,
and other not-so damaging spells to let the combat specialists do their
jobs. Unless you're fighting bugs, of course. Then all bets are off. :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
So there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 33
From: Shane Courtrille <hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:35:07 +0000
> wounds. However, the point is that *IF* the GM is using the guards and
> NPCs as real people, you don't have to take 'em out in one hit. Only
> fanatics keep going until death. Everybody else will figure that doing
> they're job isn't worth getting killed over.

You are forgetting one thing about real life... not every criminal
leaves witnesses.. and a guard or NPC is definitly a witness... sure
its not nice..but my PCs have enough experience with witnesses and
cameras to be careful.. usually i wear a mask.. but if need be I will
kill any witnesses, so when that guard is hit... he has to decide..
Is his bad guy shooting the gun at him going to just leave him
alone if he surrenders.. or will he finish him off...
Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca
Message no. 34
From: "ADAM B. TRELOAR" <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:40:04 +1000
> > wounds. However, the point is that *IF* the GM is using the guards and
> > NPCs as real people, you don't have to take 'em out in one hit. Only
> > fanatics keep going until death. Everybody else will figure that doing
> > they're job isn't worth getting killed over.
>
> You are forgetting one thing about real life... not every criminal
> leaves witnesses.. and a guard or NPC is definitly a witness... sure
> its not nice..but my PCs have enough experience with witnesses and
> cameras to be careful.. usually i wear a mask.. but if need be I will
> kill any witnesses, so when that guard is hit... he has to decide..
> Is his bad guy shooting the gun at him going to just leave him
> alone if he surrenders.. or will he finish him off...

Then don't let 'em SEE you in the first place! That's our current
group's motto. And it works.

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
So there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 35
From: Shane Courtrille <hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:47:04 +0000
> Then don't let 'em SEE you in the first place! That's our current
> group's motto. And it works.
>
Dats what I keep tellin everyone.. but they don't listen... until
they get shoot.. heck the just started using cover... cuz the bad
guys started using it and the bad guys starting whoopin ass
*wave*

Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca
Message no. 36
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 19:10:13 -0500
>Guardian said:
>
>>Because usually the target of wet-work is NOT high-karma NPCs. Sure,
>>they might have decent guards, but that's what *sneaking* past them is
>>for. If you go around blasting to smitherines all the guards at every
>>compound you hit, then expect the corps and Lone Star to start a
>>continent-wide manhunt for your character. Of course, I'm of the opinion
>>that most runs you get AREN'T wet-work. We also tend to try to keep the
>>death count down, too. Makes the corps less angry at you, and contrary
>>to what seems to be a popular belief here, the guards DON'T start hunting
>>you down because you managed to get by them. To them, it's an ordinary
>>>job,
>not an excuse to kill those that are better than you are.

I think we need to define the term 'wetwork'. As far as I know, it means
to assassinate someone, to be so close when you pull the trigger, their
blood splashes on you {hence the term}. I don't run assassination
assignments; call me old fashioned, but I'd like to think the PC's are
more than just hired, ruthless killers. Of course, it inevitibly comes
about about that even in the course of the non-violent scenerio, some
blood is shed, and somebody dies {hopefully not the PCs'}. I always
offer a number of ways for my players to approach a scenerio. They can
either a) do the footwork, plug thru the information, find out what's
REALLY going on, which usually cuts down on the violent activity
afterwards, allowing them to accomplish their goal, with the minimum
amount of harm to themselves. Or they can go at it head first, and damn
the consequences. My players have done both. And they like the options,
so as GM, I oblige them. It's the difference between action on a scale
of John Woo's Broken Arrow vs. Hard Boiled![yes, I'm a big John Woo
Fan.]
I also believe in accountability, too. I try to get the players to deal
with the consequences of their actions, like if they kill a poor
security guard whose already given up, or use heavy weaponry in an
inappropriate place. In my game, definitely, what goes around, comes
around. You can usually get more with a kind word, than a kind word and
a stick. NPCs are {or should be} more than the PCs doormats. Many times
I've had PCs walk all over their contacts, only to find they desert them
at a crucial moment. Old players in my games try now to make friends
with their PCs; taking them out to dinner, going to a showing of a
Kabuki play. One PC I had, while in Tir N'an Nog for an assignment, went
out of his way to pick up and ship back a 7 foot stuffed one of a kind
toy jaraffe,a bottle of rare Elven wine, and an original edition of
Keats. It really helps to flesh them out, to be more than just a two
dimensional voice on the telephone. The 'Bad' guys I try to portray on a
realistic level too. Depending on their Professionalism rating,
determines just how much they want to risk their life to take down the
PCs. Also, in the case of the security guards, most of them have
families, and aren't all cold blooded killers. Some are just trying to
make a buck. And I think, in a world as violent as Shadowrun, any corp
who doesn't spring for a decent armor jack for their security, is just
losing their investment, when the players come along.[By the way, I've
got two players now, who killed a couple of security guards in a running
battle, along with an inadventent hostage, that took them across state
lines; now their wanted by the FBI [They've since 'dropped' out of
sight, having been picked up by a covert government agency, whom they
will either obey, or get turned over to the Feds, not necessarily in one
piece].
As far as the motivation of most corps the runners go against, it all
comes down to the bottom line. Unless the players make it personal, no
corp suit is going to spend more than he has to, to track down and
exterminate a bunch of scraggly runners. Most often, he has to answer to
someone, and depending on the value of whatever ever the runners have
done, he has only a finite number of resources to use, before he is
called to the mat. Then the corp either writes it (and him) off as a
loss, or they assign someone who (hopefully) will get the job done more
efficiently.
I very rarely run 'Low-Threat' jobs because they in actuality shouldn't
pay very well, and some of the PCs have VERY expensive tastes {spell
foci and other assorted jiggery-pokery, upgrading bio and cyberware
options, buying that Bang-Olafson Danube Simsense System for their den}.
It is cyberpunk, after all, and while I try to interject humor into the
storyline, you have to remember, it is a dark future. The players are
often struggling to stay alive, and come to grips with their world,
which is rapidly getting harsher every day. But I truly believe that
from that, the PCs wil rise to the occasion, and shine out of the
darkness. {Okay, enough of the flowery words. Let's go kill
something!!!}

>Victor{Kohl, the lovable sociopathic ork physad gunslinger,}Fisher
Message no. 37
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 20:41:01 +0000
> From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
> Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun

> Then why bother raising any combat skill above 3 (or specialize to
> 5)? With an average of 3 dice in skill, and 3 dice from their combat

Maybe because you aren't a mage and actually rely on combat to make a
living?

> go with Justin on this one. Besides, if my character's harrassed by a
> bunch of civilian wannabees, the archetype street sam can usually take
> them down, without using lethal force; preferably hand to hand ( now

That is actually part of my point. We ARE talking about spell
tossers here, not street monsters.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 38
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 20:41:01 +0000
> From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
> Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun

> I think we need to define the term 'wetwork'. As far as I know, it means
> to assassinate someone, to be so close when you pull the trigger, their
> blood splashes on you {hence the term}. I don't run assassination

The first portion is correct, the second is not. Wetwork can involve
removing the target in many ways, even making it look like an
accident.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 39
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 20:41:01 +0000
> From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.edu>
> Organization: University of Michigan Cancer Center
> Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun

Almost caught me with that return to address....

> > Why? Even a firearms of 3 is enough most of the time. If the mage
> > decides to specialize in a particular weapon (not off base, IMHO)
> > then that 3 jumps to a 5. Why raise it beyond that?
>
> Because when you figure in Vision Mods, Range Mods, Movement Mods, Wound
> Mods, and Cover Mods, you can end up with some pretty improbably target
> numbers. Then, figure in armor and see how much damage you do with a
> three skill and one success...if you even get any at all.

First, if you're wounded going into combat you're fried anyway.
Second, after adding in the visibility mods, etc you can add in the
targeting mods like the laser sight. Third, if you don't think you
can hit your target with a shotgun, you need to rethink which end
you're pointing at the enemy.

> You will find that when using ALL appropriate target numbers, gunfights
> often fall into the "nearly impossible" category of target numbers
> (10+).

I've been playing since (very) shortly after the game was first
released and have not noticed such a trend. But then, maybe I just
haven't been paying attention.

In any case we aren't talking about Han Solo vs the storm troopers.
The odds are more or less even all around.

> *That's* why you want a skill higher than 3. :)

So you say...I'll take firearms (roomsweeper) 5 anyday for a non
samaurai.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 40
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 18:22:23 -0800
On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, Droopy wrote:

> > From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.edu>
> > Organization: University of Michigan Cancer Center
> > Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
>
> > You will find that when using ALL appropriate target numbers, gunfights
> > often fall into the "nearly impossible" category of target numbers
> > (10+).
>
> I've been playing since (very) shortly after the game was first
> released and have not noticed such a trend. But then, maybe I just
> haven't been paying attention.

No, like he said, you weren't using ALL of the modifiers. :)

But seriously, I guess if it's pitch black, the target is running behind a
brick wall, you have a serious wound and are running over "difficult
ground" while trying to cap 15 rounds off of your fully automatic shotgun
(no recoil mods) through thermal smoke at two separate people, while under
the effects of a force 6 spirit using "Confuse" then.. yes, you could get
target numbers that approach 10 (or 20)


~Tim
Message no. 41
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 10:42:29 +0100
Tim Cooper said on 18:22/ 4 Mar 97...

> But seriously, I guess if it's pitch black, the target is running behind a
> brick wall, you have a serious wound and are running over "difficult
> ground" while trying to cap 15 rounds off of your fully automatic shotgun
> (no recoil mods) through thermal smoke at two separate people, while under
> the effects of a force 6 spirit using "Confuse" then.. yes, you could get
> target numbers that approach 10 (or 20)

On the other hand, in SR it's too easy to just stand there and shoot it
out, trusting on your armor and Body to keep you more or less safe...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Everyone expects a happy ending.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 42
From: BulletShower <nmatausc@****.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 11:02:13 +1000
Said "ADAM B. TRELOAR" <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>:

> Just for the record, our group used light pistols as standard for quite a
> while. It IS a valid weapon, unless the GM gives every guard and cop a
> secure jacket.
> The heaviest weapon my character packs
> (admittedly he's a mage) is a "truckstopper" for when he's in REALLY
> deep. (A truckstopper is a Super Warhawk with APDS. Good for stopping
> trucks, hence the name.) Now, that's SIX (count them, six) rounds of
> heavy damage. And it's noisy, too. So using lighter weapons are
> useful. And quieter.


Rrrright! Exactly my words. I GMed our biweekly run last Saturday,
and my party packed BIG guns (like the completely over-the-edge troll
ex-soldier super-munchkin with essence 0.1 carrying his only
army reminiscence, a goddamn Panther ...)
Anyway, he and a "friend" took a skippy, resulting in the troll's
very low mental capabilities going down to nothing ... nada ... zero.
Man, he went *berserk*. We had two new players, both very
unexperienced, and they just sat there, staring at Rudolph (his
street name is "Pump", guess why) gun-toting thru "the enemy",
shouting things like "Viel Feind, viel Ehr'" (Many opponents, great
honor). Of course, within half a minute the whole 'hood was awake,
and dozens of fists hit the Panic Buttons. Once again, a miserable run
because some of the runners just *can't* use smaller firearms.


______________________________________________________________________
"Gott wuerfelt nicht" (A. Einstein)
For More information on diceless roleplaying and own Shadowrun stuff,
jack into http://www.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~nmatausc OR
try http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/1322
Message no. 43
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 11:18:47 GMT
Justin Pinnow writes

[i assume you meant this to end up on the list, check mail fields]

> Mark Steedman wrote:
>
> <Snip>
>
> > > And if your character's a
> > > mage, I'm surprised he even carries a gun (how often does he use it, and
> > > is it the street sam's who really pull the weight in a gunfight?).
>
> > Why carry a gun, simple, its very difficult to 'wave a manabolt at
> > someone', stick a nice pistol in his guts and he's far more likely to
> > become nice and meek. They are also a good solution to whenthe bad
> > guys have you magically out gunned, you have to save magic pool for
> > defense, fine so shoot them. Also initiate's Sheilding doesn't stop
> > bullets :)
>
> I agree. I don't think I have ever played a mage in SR that didn't own
> and carry a pistol of some type. My most recent carries a Savalette
> Guardian and sometimes even a Ruger Thunderbolt. However, he's not
> *just* a mage, or even a full mage. He's an adept with a magic rating
> of 4 (uninitiated). He even has a smartlink and TWO sets of retractable
> spurs....he's a street sam with some magical oomph to help him along
> when necessary.
Yeah. I have a liking for 'pure' mages, but smartgun links are THE
answer to killing folks, and you cannot ground spells through
cybernetic reflex enhancements!

>
> However, my pure mages still carry pistols or knives or
> something....it's just too easy to die from lots of lead that doesn't
> cause any drain....you can only cast spells for so long. :)
>
Yeah, the mage i've played a fair amount carried an HK227 when
possible, complete with the only clip of APDS he ever had, did he use
it, no but it sure is nice to know that if it ever comes to 'that
ridiculous target MUST die' you have a really stellar ace in the hole
[i rate 17D APDS as really really fatal :) ]

I also like HP's why good balance of firepower against acceptability,
you can claim it for self defence, or running Enfield AS7, hello your
wall decoration! 11D loading regular! on burst.

Mark
Message no. 44
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 15:40:38 +0000
On 4 Mar 97 at 18:22, Tim Cooper wrote:
[snip]
> But seriously, I guess if it's pitch black, the target is running behind a
> brick wall, you have a serious wound and are running over "difficult
> ground" while trying to cap 15 rounds off of your fully automatic shotgun
> (no recoil mods) through thermal smoke at two separate people, while under
> the effects of a force 6 spirit using "Confuse" then.. yes, you could get
> target numbers that approach 10 (or 20)
Hm... short distance : 4
Target running: +2
Brick Wall (?? partial +4
cover?)
------
10
Running over difficult +4
ground (Alley)
Multiple Tagets: +2
Minimal Light: +6
(we still talk magicians, don't we?)
------
22
Plus injuries... Plus recoil... Apart from the running, and the
wounds, this is how most our fights take place...

Minus Laser sights, minus spread from shotgun (if using shot)

Now guess how effective my char is with Firearms 3, even when using a
shotgun... If he could heave a LMG, he might decide to use
"suppression fire" as per FoF rules... but he's not strong enough.

Someone (sorry, hit "delete" too fast) said a mere 19 Karma Points to
raise Firearms to 4 would be a good deal. For 18 Karma Points one
could initiate to Level 0 - better bargain. Raise Sorc. Skill from 8
to 9 - better bargain.
We ARE talking magicians here, don't we?

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |'The rich control |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| The Government, |
| \___ __/ | | The Media, |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | And the Law!' |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | - Queensryche |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 45
From: Caric <caric@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 08:37:51 -0700
> But seriously, I guess if it's pitch black, the target is running behind
a
> brick wall, you have a serious wound and are running over "difficult
> ground" while trying to cap 15 rounds off of your fully automatic shotgun
> (no recoil mods) through thermal smoke at two separate people, while
under
> the effects of a force 6 spirit using "Confuse" then.. yes, you could get
> target numbers that approach 10 (or 20)

60 is more like it IIRC total darkness is +8 by itself. Plus target
running is what +2? And then say +6 cover for the brick wall and +3 for
the serious wound (what no stun?) Not sure but lets guess +4 for the
difficult ground. Double the recoil mods for automatic shotguns (we'll be
nice and not use the errata rules so we shave off one round of recoil) so
that's +28 to the target number. The multiple targets is +2 and then the
force of the spirit is +6. I have no idea what the thermal smoke adds but
+2 should be safe. Granted I don't have the books here with me
(obviously), but by my loose figuring that would be a base target number of
63 assuming the shooter has a smartlink. I'd say firearms 3 ain't gonna
cut it =)

Now maybe the (no recoil mods) meant that the shooter didn't take any
recoil penalties...if so its only a target number of 35.

=)

~Caric

"All the world's indeed a stage, we are mearly players.
Performers and portrayers. Each anothers audience,
outside the gilded cage." -Rush
caric@*******.com
Message no. 46
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 10:44:37 -0800
On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> Hm... short distance : 4
> Target running: +2
> Brick Wall (?? partial +4
> cover?)
> ------
> 10
> Running over difficult +4
> ground (Alley)
> Multiple Tagets: +2
> Minimal Light: +6
> (we still talk magicians, don't we?)
> ------
> 22

If we're talking magicians, then you could lower that Minimal Light
penalty by just using Astral Perception... +2 penalty, no vision
modifiers. That's certainly better than the +6..eh?

> Plus injuries... Plus recoil... Apart from the running, and the
> wounds, this is how most our fights take place...
>
> Minus Laser sights, minus spread from shotgun (if using shot)

When we play, we tend toward more "Cinematic" interpretations on rules.
Basically if unless it's really important, or significant, we usually
ignore most of the modifiers except for recoil, wounds and occasionally
light (nearly every PC has low-light and Thermo)

>
> Now guess how effective my char is with Firearms 3, even when using a
> shotgun... If he could heave a LMG, he might decide to use
> "suppression fire" as per FoF rules... but he's not strong enough.

One word (actually a few): Specialization, Customization, and maybe
Aiming. Of course if it's THAT hard to use a gun, just use a spell (and
centering).

>
> Someone (sorry, hit "delete" too fast) said a mere 19 Karma Points to
> raise Firearms to 4 would be a good deal. For 18 Karma Points one
> could initiate to Level 0 - better bargain. Raise Sorc. Skill from 8
> to 9 - better bargain.

Of course if you factor in an Ordeal (or what ever) you drop to 15, add a
group and it goes lower.

> We ARE talking magicians here, don't we?
>
> Sascha

~Tim
Message no. 47
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 10:51:36 -0800
On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Caric wrote:

> > But seriously, I guess if it's pitch black, the target is running behind
> a
> > brick wall, you have a serious wound and are running over "difficult
> > ground" while trying to cap 15 rounds off of your fully automatic shotgun
> > (no recoil mods) through thermal smoke at two separate people, while
> under
> > the effects of a force 6 spirit using "Confuse" then.. yes, you could
get
> > target numbers that approach 10 (or 20)
>
> 60 is more like it IIRC total darkness is +8 by itself. Plus target
> running is what +2? And then say +6 cover for the brick wall and +3 for
> the serious wound (what no stun?) Not sure but lets guess +4 for the
> difficult ground. Double the recoil mods for automatic shotguns (we'll be
> nice and not use the errata rules so we shave off one round of recoil) so
> that's +28 to the target number. The multiple targets is +2 and then the
> force of the spirit is +6. I have no idea what the thermal smoke adds but
> +2 should be safe. Granted I don't have the books here with me
> (obviously), but by my loose figuring that would be a base target number of
> 63 assuming the shooter has a smartlink. I'd say firearms 3 ain't gonna
> cut it =)
>
> Now maybe the (no recoil mods) meant that the shooter didn't take any
> recoil penalties...if so its only a target number of 35.
>
> =)
>
> ~Caric

My only question is this: If the player ACTAULLY MANAGES TO GET A 35
would you kill the target regardless of the actual damage? I think I
might...
:)

~Tim (who feels that merely GETTING a 35 should be worth SOMETHING..)
Message no. 48
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 13:47:53 -0500
Cooper says:

>If we're talking magicians, then you could lower that Minimal Light >penalty
by just using Astral perception...+2 penalty, no vision >modifiers.
That's certainly better than the +6...eh?

I don't know. I think there's something against this in 2nd Edition
Grimoire. Something about visual modifiers for astral
perception[distance,etc.].
Message no. 49
From: Caric <caric@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 13:12:35 -0700
> My only question is this: If the player ACTAULLY MANAGES TO GET A 35
> would you kill the target regardless of the actual damage? I think I
> might...
> :)
>
> ~Tim (who feels that merely GETTING a 35 should be worth SOMETHING..)

I agree with you Tim, I don't know if I would kill the target straight out,
but if my PC saw someone make that shot I certainly wouldn't mess with
them.

~Caric

"All the world's indeed a stage, we are mearly players.
Performers and portrayers. Each anothers audience,
outside the gilded cage." -Rush
caric@*******.com
Message no. 50
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 19:31:09 +0000
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Organization: Plastic Warriors
> Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun

> On the other hand, in SR it's too easy to just stand there and shoot it
> out, trusting on your armor and Body to keep you more or less safe...

<sigh> Ok, I'll have to get around to posting the armor system I use.
Makes combat a lot less safe.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 51
From: Ted Cabeen <cabeen@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 00:54:09 -0600
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:40 PM 3/5/97 +0000, Sascha wrote:
>On 4 Mar 97 at 18:22, Tim Cooper wrote:
>[snip]
>Hm... short distance : 4
>Target running: +2
>Brick Wall (?? partial +4
> cover?)
> ------
> 10
>Running over difficult +4
> ground (Alley)
>Multiple Tagets: +2
>Minimal Light: +6
> (we still talk magicians, don't we?)
> ------
> 22
>Plus injuries... Plus recoil... Apart from the running, and the
>wounds, this is how most our fights take place...
In our game, we have a house rule that except for recoil and injuries, the
situational target modifiers cannot go above +8 because blind fire is +8 and
if can't realistically get any worse than firing blind. If being unable to
see gives a +8, how can it be harder to hit someone than if you can't tell
where they are? I understand that there are other, aural cues, but most of
the situational modifiers would not affect how well you could hear the
general location of the target. By restricting it to a max of +8, it makes
those target numbers of 20+ almost impossible. What do you think?

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--
______________________________________________________________________________
Ted Cabeen http://shadowland.rh.uchicago.edu cabeen@******.com
Check Website or finger for PGP Public Key secabeen@******.uchicago.edu
"I have taken all knowledge to be my province." -F. Bacon cococabeen@***.com
"Human kind cannot bear very much reality."-T.S.Eliot 73126.626@**********.com
Message no. 52
From: Ray Nichols <rnichols@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 12:57:20 -0800
>My only question is this: If the player ACTAULLY MANAGES TO GET A 35
>would you kill the target regardless of the actual damage? I think I
>might...
>:)
>
>~Tim (who feels that merely GETTING a 35 should be worth SOMETHING..)

They way I've played it, every multiple of the target number you get is a
point added to the drama of the shot. One guy needed a 7 and managed to roll
one die out to 41, it was still a light wound but was it ever a dramatic
light wound. Everything went slo-mo, there was tonnes of screaming, the guy
hit fell to the ground with a spectacular move (a r r r g g ! !). It was
just beautiful. Anyone can shoot a guy dead but it takes a special kind of
idiot to shoot a guy for a light wound and do it with a lot of style.

......................................................
.Ray " Glad to be a capitalist tool " Nichols .
. .
. PGP key on demand or finger .
. .
. Get out! Just get out! I mean, I think I'll .
. leave now. .
. -Trevor Goodchild, _Æon_Flux_ .
. .
.Obey the might of the Sea-Monkey Worhsip page .
.----------------------------------------------------.
. http://users.uniserve.com/~sbarclay/seamonk.htm .
......................................................
Message no. 53
From: Caric <caric@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 14:55:49 -0700
> In our game, we have a house rule that except for recoil and injuries,
the
> situational target modifiers cannot go above +8 because blind fire is +8
and
> if can't realistically get any worse than firing blind. If being unable
to
> see gives a +8, how can it be harder to hit someone than if you can't
tell
> where they are? I understand that there are other, aural cues, but most
of
> the situational modifiers would not affect how well you could hear the
> general location of the target. By restricting it to a max of +8, it
makes
> those target numbers of 20+ almost impossible. What do you think?

I agree that visibility mods should never exceed +8, but if youadd running
and cover I can see it going higher.

~Caric

"All the world's indeed a stage, we are mearly players.
Performers and portrayers. Each anothers audience,
outside the gilded cage." -Rush
caric@*******.com
Message no. 54
From: Negative Pulse <negativepulse@********.COM>
Subject: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 18:50:54 -0500
I am interested in knowing if anyone has succesfully converted the "M56
Smartgun" From Aliens, into Shadowrun rules. I was thinking of going at it
myself and wasn't sure if I would be plaigerizing someones work. So thats
why I'm asking.



NegativePulse
Message no. 55
From: "James Meiers (Specter)" <james@***.UNM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Firearms in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 11:04:07 -0700
On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Negative Pulse wrote:

> I am interested in knowing if anyone has succesfully converted the "M56
> Smartgun" From Aliens, into Shadowrun rules. I was thinking of going at it
> myself and wasn't sure if I would be plaigerizing someones work. So thats
> why I'm asking.
Yes! Eric Johnson put a lot of effort into his conversion,
including getting some actuall balistic info to make it more realistic.
It's on his homepage at:

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCananveral/6958/index.htm




James Meiers (Specter) *****http://www.arc.unm.edu/~james*****
"It's all good fun until someone loses an eye. Then it's just fun."-Unknown

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