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Message no. 1
From: Simon Nixon a_9365@*******.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 15:11:40 GMT
Hi all! Just writing to get a few answers to some questions that I have -
that or a couple cheap laughs from the answers <grin>! I'm fairly new at all
this, I've just been lurking in the background until now, so be gentle! I'm
also a complete technology ignoramus so if this all goes wrong don't blame
me. Well you can try, but I'll just stick my fingers in my ears and hum and
generally ignore you :).


1. What the hell does a T-Bird look like? Our group has had many *intensive*
discussions - read fights - about what they look like. I've read/heard that
they are large wedge shaped. COME ON. Are we seriously being told that one
of the most destructive vehicles circa 2060 looks like a door stop?

2. Our group is currently trying to raise enough cash for our team decker to
upgrade her deck - I *HATE* that fragging SOTA! One way I came up with was
to knock over a couple banks. What would this do to a runners reputation -
as runners seem to consider themselves one step above the ordinary
criminals. As much of the worlds cash is now e-cash I have to take a decker
along to deck into the bank once we's taken control of the branch. This
would also make the job easier for the decker as they'd have an inside line
from inside the actual bank negating at least some of the ICE. How much
Nuyen would you expect to get from a middle/high class bank and what type of
security would you put around the bank both physically at the branch and ICE
wise. A final consideration is that wouldn't the bank/corp and the cops hunt
the runners that much harder than usual as this is a high publicity run -
more so than a data steal as data steals don't come up on the news as much
as bank robberies.

3. C2 Decks. These little doo-hickies are built into and in the space next
to the brain inside the skull. The whole point of having a gap between the
brain and skull is so that if you get hit on the head the brain wont bang
into the skull causing brain damage. As the C2 Deck takes up space wouldn't
you be more likely to get brain damage/ordinary damage if you had one if you
got whacked over the head?

4. What are Desert Wars? I've read/heard bits about it. It seems that it's
held in Egypt/North Africa/Middle East in a nuked/bio-warfare ravaged
wasteland. What caused it was either a)the first real corp war was between
two mid-sized (can't remember the names) in this area or
b)Egypt/other Arab countries launched a bio-warfare attack on Israel so the
Israeli's understandably decided to nuke all the surrounding hostile
countries. The general premise is that corps field their own armies often
boosted with mercenary units to fight against other corp armies for training
and prestige. It also gives a venue if two corps want an all out fight
without having to blow away each others assets.
5. The Game Police. In a part of the SR3 rules there is a section that says
something along the lines of 'we wont come round to make sure your following
the rules absolutely'. Does this mean the Gaming police has been disbanded?
Is no-one enforcing the rules now? Have the gaming Police been retired and
become civilians? Have they stayed on as quasi un-official civilian
vigilantes? Or have FASA kept them on as part of a classified top secret arm
of FASA - think Men In Black - paid out of secret slush funds?

Sorry about that. I've just finished re-watching Olly Stones JFK and am a
tad paranoid at the moment. Well, more than usual <grin>. Hey here's a
thought! Maybe the Military/Industrial Complex hired a forerunner of the
Street Sam/Assassin to off JFK. I'm sure I read that one of the witnesses in
the crowd was named 'Johnson'!

6. Everyone knows that if you drop toast that it always falls butter side
down. Its also well known that when cats fall they usually land on their
feet. So what would happen if you buttered the back of a cat and threw it
out of a 5th story window? Which side would it land on? Maybe it would land
on its side - both forces cancelling the other out.

The reason that I asked is that our group is currently chasing an NPC adept
that has the 'Cat Fall' power - the one where you can fall so many stories
and land on your feet without damage. The adept is constantly escaping us by
jumping out of windows or off roofs. As the groups mage, to combat this I
have decided to butter the adepts head thus cancelling his cat fall power
<grin>. I devised a
Butter Head/Knob of Butter spell but the GM nixed that idea, so I've brought
along a tub of magically purified butter - purified with oricalcum and a
*really* long ritual no less - along in my gear <hehe>. The question is what
would be the TN be for levitating the butter out of the tub, over to the
adept and spreading it on his head whilst the adepts running full pelt
towards the edge of the roof to jump off? Is this a simple or complex
action? Another idea was I'd use a wind elemental to carry it over and
butter the adepts head. How many spirit services would this cost me and how
complex would it be for the spirit in relation to any TN modifiers? What
would be the TN's for the ADEPT to resist this - and with *what*? What would
be the TN's added to the cat fall power to land properly if he jumped whilst
he was buttered? Also would a cow shaman get any extra dice/reduced TN's for
this semi-bovine related task from the cow/butter link?

I still think that the Butter Head/Knob of Butter spell idea was a good
idea! I mean, if you can create elementals and sentient spirits out of Mana
WHY NOT dairy products? If anyone can come up with a working idea of this
I'd be grateful as I could try and sell it to my GM to use. TN's, what type
of spell it is, effect, duration, drain code an stuff would be good.

Well thanks a lot in anticipation for and help rendered, curses flames and
vulger gestures also sent out for anyone else :)


FlakJacket
-Need one for all the drek being thrown at me



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Message no. 2
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:31:15 -0500
Well, I'll give my shot at those questions that I possess knowledge about,
and leave the rest to other people.

> 1. What the hell does a T-Bird look like? Our group has had many
*intensive*
> discussions - read fights - about what they look like. I've read/heard
that
> they are large wedge shaped. COME ON. Are we seriously being told that one
> of the most destructive vehicles circa 2060 looks like a door stop?

Well, there are several different models, but the typical Vectored Thrust
vehicle probably looks a lot like the GMC Banshee, the foremost, badest-ass
T-Bird there is. Which is to say, not shaped like a wedge.

> 2. Our group is currently trying to raise enough cash for our team decker
to
> upgrade her deck - I *HATE* that fragging SOTA! One way I came up with was
> to knock over a couple banks. What would this do to a runners reputation -
> as runners seem to consider themselves one step above the ordinary
> criminals. As much of the worlds cash is now e-cash I have to take a
decker
> along to deck into the bank once we's taken control of the branch. This
> would also make the job easier for the decker as they'd have an inside
line
> from inside the actual bank negating at least some of the ICE. How much
> Nuyen would you expect to get from a middle/high class bank and what type
of
> security would you put around the bank both physically at the branch and
ICE
> wise. A final consideration is that wouldn't the bank/corp and the cops
hunt
> the runners that much harder than usual as this is a high publicity run -
> more so than a data steal as data steals don't come up on the news as much
> as bank robberies.

Read The Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Real Life. And, for that matter, Sprawl
Sites, which will give you the maps. Those two books should tell you
everything you need to know about robbing a bank in 2061. Oh, and reading
Corporate Security should help with advancements in security technology
since, say, 2053 or 4, when Neo-AG to Real Life was printed.

Hell, read CorpSec anyway; it's the single most valueable SR book ever
printed, with the [possible] exception of the main book.

> 3. C2 Decks. These little doo-hickies are built into and in the space next
> to the brain inside the skull. The whole point of having a gap between the
> brain and skull is so that if you get hit on the head the brain wont bang
> into the skull causing brain damage. As the C2 Deck takes up space
wouldn't
> you be more likely to get brain damage/ordinary damage if you had one if
you
> got whacked over the head?

Probably. Have fun.

> 5. The Game Police. In a part of the SR3 rules there is a section that
says
> something along the lines of 'we wont come round to make sure your
following
> the rules absolutely'. Does this mean the Gaming police has been
disbanded?
> Is no-one enforcing the rules now? Have the gaming Police been retired and
> become civilians? Have they stayed on as quasi un-official civilian
> vigilantes? Or have FASA kept them on as part of a classified top secret
arm
> of FASA - think Men In Black - paid out of secret slush funds?

As they say, they're too busy watching the BattleTech players to make sure
we get it right.

___________________________________
I told you this morality of mine would kill us all.
Message no. 3
From: dbuehrer@****.org dbuehrer@****.org
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 09:00:21 -0700
Simon Nixon wrote:
\ Hi all! Just writing to get a few answers to some questions that I have -
\ that or a couple cheap laughs from the answers <grin>! I'm fairly new at all
\ this, I've just been lurking in the background until now, so be gentle! I'm
\ also a complete technology ignoramus so if this all goes wrong don't blame
\ me. Well you can try, but I'll just stick my fingers in my ears and hum and
\ generally ignore you :).

Welcome to the list! I hope you enjoy it here :)

\ 1. What the hell does a T-Bird look like? Our group has had many *intensive*
\ discussions - read fights - about what they look like. I've read/heard that
\ they are large wedge shaped. COME ON. Are we seriously being told that one
\ of the most destructive vehicles circa 2060 looks like a door stop?

This has been a lively discussion on ShadowRN on many occasions :)

There is no description or picture of a T-Bird in any of the rule/source books.

The main topic of discussion is how in the hell the thing stays in the air,
and this relates to it's appearance.

A: its heavy. B: the rules state that it uses wing-in-ground effect.

When it's in hover mode the engines would have to be powerful enough to
keep it in the air and give it maneuverability. Where's the intake for
these engines? How big are they? How much fuel do they require?

WIG requires a "wing" span equal to twice the distance the vehicle flies
above the ground (assuming there isn't any assisting thrust). Me, I'd give
it a minimum altitude of 3m. That requires 6m of wing. That gives it a
width of the body plus 6m. Your average tank is about 2.5m wide. That'd
give a T-bird a width of 7.5m (~25"). IMHO that's way to wide for a
vehicle that's used in a tank role. IMHO the thing uses thrust to keep it
flying all the time, and takes advantage of a little WIG when it can. If
it has a long range it either has very efficient engines, or it carries a
lot of fuel. If it has a short range that limits its strategic capabilities.

In any case, the appearance is still undecided.

IMHO the T-Bird is tank-like in appearance, but with more aerodynamic
lines. I think the jet intake should be on the top, in the back. I think
it has a very high-tech engine that is powerful and fuel efficient. The
T-Bird is probably the Army's version of the Navy/Air Force all weather
stealth fighter in terms of pet projects and cost. That would explain why
something that shouldn't have been attempted is on the battlefield, and
that it works.

\ 2. Our group is currently trying to raise enough cash for our team decker to
\ upgrade her deck - I *HATE* that fragging SOTA! One way I came up with was
\ to knock over a couple banks. What would this do to a runners reputation -
\ as runners seem to consider themselves one step above the ordinary
\ criminals.

Well, technically the runners *are* criminals :) As far as the
corporate/police community go, it wouldn't matter to much if they robbed a
few banks. Their street rep would be affected, depending on how well they
did the job and the methods used. Their rep would probably improve if they
hit corporate banks. Course, those banks are hard nuts to crack.

Another suggestion would be for the decker to use her spare time to do
small data steals and sell them on the black market. That's what the
non-running non-corp deckers do to stay alive. Or, she could offer her
services as a consultant to non-corporate business for a price below what
the corporate consultants charge. Jobs like networking the terminals at a
local school in the barrens, etc.

\ 5. The Game Police. In a part of the SR3 rules there is a section that says
\ something along the lines of 'we wont come round to make sure your following
\ the rules absolutely'. Does this mean the Gaming police has been disbanded?
\ Is no-one enforcing the rules now? Have the gaming Police been retired and
\ become civilians? Have they stayed on as quasi un-official civilian
\ vigilantes? Or have FASA kept them on as part of a classified top secret arm
\ of FASA - think Men In Black - paid out of secret slush funds?

None of the above. Actually, it's secret option number three. :)

\ 6. Everyone knows that if you drop toast that it always falls butter side
\ down. Its also well known that when cats fall they usually land on their
\ feet. So what would happen if you buttered the back of a cat and threw it
\ out of a 5th story window? Which side would it land on? Maybe it would land
\ on its side - both forces cancelling the other out.
\
\ The reason that I asked is that our group is currently chasing an NPC adept
\ that has the 'Cat Fall' power - the one where you can fall so many stories
\ and land on your feet without damage. The adept is constantly escaping us by
\ jumping out of windows or off roofs. As the groups mage, to combat this I
\ have decided to butter the adepts head thus cancelling his cat fall power
\ <grin>. I devised a
\ Butter Head/Knob of Butter spell but the GM nixed that idea, so I've brought
\ along a tub of magically purified butter - purified with oricalcum and a
\ *really* long ritual no less - along in my gear <hehe>. The question is what
\ would be the TN be for levitating the butter out of the tub, over to the
\ adept and spreading it on his head whilst the adepts running full pelt
\ towards the edge of the roof to jump off? Is this a simple or complex
\ action? Another idea was I'd use a wind elemental to carry it over and
\ butter the adepts head. How many spirit services would this cost me and how
\ complex would it be for the spirit in relation to any TN modifiers? What
\ would be the TN's for the ADEPT to resist this - and with *what*? What would
\ be the TN's added to the cat fall power to land properly if he jumped whilst
\ he was buttered? Also would a cow shaman get any extra dice/reduced TN's for
\ this semi-bovine related task from the cow/butter link?

...you're going to fit in just fine here :)

-Graht
--
"The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know
and the more I want to learn."
-Einstein
Message no. 4
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:06:28 -0500 (EST)
On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 dbuehrer@****.org wrote:

> \ 1. What the hell does a T-Bird look like?
>
> There is no description or picture of a T-Bird in any of the
> rule/source books.

Actually, that's not technically true. There are pictures of the
GMC Banshee in the original Rigger Blackbook. Unfortunately, it's
woefully out of print, so that doesn't do you a whole lot of good. But
basically, Graht's description is pretty spot-on. It looks like an
aerodynamic tank with stubby little wings and vectored thrust outlets on
the undersides.

Marc
Message no. 5
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:12:43 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:11 PM 11/16/99 +0000, Simon Nixon wrote:
:3. C2 Decks. These little doo-hickies are built into and in the
:space next to the brain inside the skull. The whole point of having
:a gap between the brain and skull is so that if you get hit on the
:head the brain wont bang into the skull causing brain damage. As
:the C2 Deck takes up space wouldn't you be more likely to get brain
: damage/ordinary damage if you had one if you got whacked over the
:head?

Actually, there's another theory behind how bulky internal headware
is implanted. Sections of bone from the skull are actually removed,
and replaced with a plastic or a ceramic that has aproximately the
same strength and hardness as bone, but with less bulk and thickness.
The optical chips and other bulky hardware are actually then fitted
into the recessed area and then covered over with more plastic so
that the brain is still resting in a smooth crainial cavity.
Hopefully, M&M will give more detail about the implantation process,
to clear up this sort of speculation.

:6. Everyone knows that if you drop toast that it always falls butter
: side down. Its also well known that when cats fall they usually
:land on their feet. So what would happen if you buttered the back
:of a cat and threw it out of a 5th story window? Which side would
:it land on? Maybe it would land on its side - both forces
:cancelling the other out.

Somewhere out on the web (I've lost the URL) there's quicktime video
footage of this phenomenon. You actually have to strap a piece of
buttered toast to the back of the cat, you can't just butter the cat.
Anyways, the cat/toast stops in midair about a half meter off the
ground, and just starts spining as the toast force and cat force
cancel each other out. It was rather bizarre, and really seemed to
confuse and disorient the cat.



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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 6
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:41:01 EST
In a message dated 11/16/1999 11:01:03 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
dbuehrer@****.org writes:

> This has been a lively discussion on ShadowRN on many occasions :)
>
> There is no description or picture of a T-Bird in any of the rule/source
> books.
>
> The main topic of discussion is how in the hell the thing stays in the air,
> and this relates to it's appearance.

David, exactly *WHAT* kind of stuff are you smoking??? There's a Banshee in
the older Rigger Black Book. There are also NUMEROUS pictures of them in Lone
Star, Tir Tairngire, and CalFree state IIRC.

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 7
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:02:06 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:41 PM 11/16/99 -0500, Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
:David, exactly *WHAT* kind of stuff are you smoking??? There's a
:Banshee in the older Rigger Black Book.

I've seen this pointed out a couple of times today already, and I'm
just wondering something. Am I the only person who remembers that
there was a picture of the GMC Banshee in Equipment chapter of the
original core rulebook, published a decade ago (a few years before
RBB, I might add)? :)

I even remember when that vehicle class was still called 'panzers'.
They weren't called 'thunderbirds' until the NAN books came out, and
FASA must have taken a liking to the term, because they've used it
ever since.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 8
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:13:13 EST
In a message dated 11/16/1999 8:01:03 AM Pacific Standard Time,
dbuehrer@****.org writes:

> \ 1. What the hell does a T-Bird look like? Our group has had many
*intensive*
> \ discussions - read fights - about what they look like. I've read/heard
> that
> \ they are large wedge shaped. COME ON. Are we seriously being told that
one
> \ of the most destructive vehicles circa 2060 looks like a door stop?
>
> This has been a lively discussion on ShadowRN on many occasions :)
>
> There is no description or picture of a T-Bird in any of the rule/source
> books.

Actually, there is a picture of a T-Bird, the GMC Banshee, in BBB2, on page
252, bottom left courner. It looks like a cross between a hovertank and a
Harrier jump jet. No wing, but I suppose the shape of the body could be
considered a 'lifting body' shape, with 4 vectored thrust nozzles sticking
out the bottom. No visible intake, which means that its on the underbelly of
the thing. (Yech. must have a pretty good screen down there to prevent FOD
damage)

Query: If someone made a scan of said image, would it fall under the 'fair
use' rule?

--
Starrngr -- Ranger HQ
HTTP://home.talkcity.com/TheSanitarium/Da_Muck/

"You wear a Hawaiian shirt and bring your music on a RUN? No wonder they
call you Howling Mad..." -- Rabid the Pysad.
Message no. 9
From: Mockingbird mockingbird@*********.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:54:53 -0600
----- Original Message -----
From: Simon Nixon <a_9365@*******.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 09:11 AM
Subject: First Time Questions


<snip>
> The reason that I asked is that our group is currently chasing an NPC
adept
> that has the 'Cat Fall' power - the one where you can fall so many
stories
> and land on your feet without damage. The adept is constantly
escaping us by
> jumping out of windows or off roofs. As the groups mage, to combat
this I

<snip>

> action? Another idea was I'd use a wind elemental to carry it over
and
> butter the adepts head. How many spirit services would this cost me
and how
> complex would it be for the spirit in relation to any TN modifiers?
What
> would be the TN's for the ADEPT to resist this - and with *what*?
What would
> be the TN's added to the cat fall power to land properly if he jumped
whilst
> he was buttered? Also would a cow shaman get any extra dice/reduced
TN's for
> this semi-bovine related task from the cow/butter link?
>
<snip>

Wouldn't it be easier to have an earth elemental pop out of astral
space in front of him and blindside/pin him to the ground? Or maybe
have an air elemental (or sky spirit) catch him in mid air after he
jumps and bring him back to the party?

Mockingbird
Message no. 10
From: Martin Steffens (Berlitz) v-marts@*********.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:20:35 -0800
From: Paul Gettle

> I've seen this pointed out a couple of times today already, and I'm
> just wondering something. Am I the only person who remembers that
> there was a picture of the GMC Banshee in Equipment chapter of the
> original core rulebook, published a decade ago (a few years before
> RBB, I might add)? :)

Nope, you're right, I remember that being there too. It looked like
a side view of the Banshee from the Rigger Black Book.

>I even remember when that vehicle class was still called 'panzers'.
>They weren't called 'thunderbirds' until the NAN books came out, and
>FASA must have taken a liking to the term, because they've used it
>ever since.

This could be my memory playing tricks, but didn't they still use the
term panzer in Denver from time to time too? Someone in Germany must
have explained to FASA that the term is a bit hard to translate without
loosing the meaning in the German books :)


Martin Steffens
e-mail: v-marts@*********.com
phone: 70 666 44
Message no. 11
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 19:33:52 +0100
According to dbuehrer@****.org, at 9:00 on 16 Nov 99, the word on
the street was...

> There is no description or picture of a T-Bird in any of the rule/source books.

As has been pointed out, there are plenty of pictures of the GMC Banshee
around.

> WIG requires a "wing" span equal to twice the distance the vehicle flies
> above the ground (assuming there isn't any assisting thrust). Me, I'd give
> it a minimum altitude of 3m. That requires 6m of wing. That gives it a
> width of the body plus 6m. Your average tank is about 2.5m wide.

More like 3 to 3.5 m. 2.5 m is about right for an MBT's height to the
turret roof, though :)

> That'd give a T-bird a width of 7.5m (~25"). IMHO that's way to wide
> for a vehicle that's used in a tank role.

Way too wide. You couldn't get through narrow streets that way, for
example. But couldn't it be reduced to the "base" wingspan by using a
lifting body?

> IMHO the T-Bird is tank-like in appearance, but with more aerodynamic
> lines. I think the jet intake should be on the top, in the back.

Or else has shutters like on some Russian jet fighters (e.g. MiG-27) for
when it's flying over terrain with lots of loose debris.


--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Destiny is a state of mind
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
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GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 19:33:52 +0100
According to Simon Nixon, at 15:11 on 16 Nov 99, the word on the street
was...

> Well you can try, but I'll just stick my fingers in my ears and hum and
> generally ignore you :).

That won't work with email. You'd have to stick your fingers in your eyes
to ignore us ;)

> 1. What the hell does a T-Bird look like? Our group has had many *intensive*
> discussions - read fights - about what they look like. I've read/heard that
> they are large wedge shaped. COME ON. Are we seriously being told that one
> of the most destructive vehicles circa 2060 looks like a door stop?

There are pictures of them in a number of books, including SR1 (p. 131),
SRII (p. 252), and the Rigger Black Book (pp. 88-89 and in the color
section), plus several others. Generally speaking, they look a bit like a
lifting body aircraft with a turret sticking out.

> 3. C2 Decks. These little doo-hickies are built into and in the space next
> to the brain inside the skull. The whole point of having a gap between the
> brain and skull is so that if you get hit on the head the brain wont bang
> into the skull causing brain damage. As the C2 Deck takes up space wouldn't
> you be more likely to get brain damage/ordinary damage if you had one if you
> got whacked over the head?

Most cyberware built into the skull would suffer from that. The way I see
this sort of gear is that it's not built into the gap between the skull
and the brain, but that parts of the skull are replaced by artificial
sections containing the hardware.

> 4. What are Desert Wars? I've read/heard bits about it. It seems that it's
> held in Egypt/North Africa/Middle East in a nuked/bio-warfare ravaged
> wasteland.

Egypt is in North Africa :) The wasteland thing is not really mentioned
anywhere I can remember, rather it's usually said that they're held in the
Sahara. Weird place for fighting a war, it seems to me... Armies avoid
such deserts pretty much like the plague if given half a chance (e.g. in
WWII it was Rommel, I believe, who used the Sahara as a means to block the
enemy's retreat, much as seas are used when available).

> The general premise is that corps field their own armies often
> boosted with mercenary units to fight against other corp armies for training
> and prestige. It also gives a venue if two corps want an all out fight
> without having to blow away each others assets.

I don't think mercenaries are involved very much. The corps prefer to use
their own troops in Desert Wars, IIRC.

> 5. The Game Police. In a part of the SR3 rules there is a section that says
> something along the lines of 'we wont come round to make sure your following
> the rules absolutely'. Does this mean the Gaming police has been disbanded?

No, it means they're checking up on Crimson Skies or BattleTech players
and don't have time for Shadowrun players right now :)

But we still have our own jack-booted thug, Granite ;)

> 6. Everyone knows that if you drop toast that it always falls butter side
> down.

Someone has actually done serious research into this...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Destiny is a state of mind
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
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GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: dbuehrer@****.org dbuehrer@****.org
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:35:51 -0700
Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
\ In a message dated 11/16/1999 11:01:03 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
\ dbuehrer@****.org writes:
\
\ > This has been a lively discussion on ShadowRN on many occasions :)
\ >
\ > There is no description or picture of a T-Bird in any of the rule/source
\ > books.
\ >
\ > The main topic of discussion is how in the hell the thing stays in the
air,
\ > and this relates to it's appearance.
\
\ David, exactly *WHAT* kind of stuff are you smoking??? There's a Banshee in
\ the older Rigger Black Book. There are also NUMEROUS pictures of them in
Lone
\ Star, Tir Tairngire, and CalFree state IIRC.

Sorry. I of course realized my error after I hit the send key :-/

FWIW, we still don't know how the damn things stay in the air.

-Graht
--
"Anything I have ever done that ultimately was worthwhile....
initially scared me to death."
-Betty Bender
Message no. 14
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:39:23 EST
In a message dated 11/16/1999 10:36:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,
dbuehrer@****.org writes:

> Sorry. I of course realized my error after I hit the send key :-/
>
> FWIW, we still don't know how the damn things stay in the air.
>
> -Graht

The same way a Harrier does when it takes off or lands vertically... Brute
force!!! Which also, IMO, explains why T-birds have such lousy range and
fuel economy.

--
Starrngr -- Ranger HQ
HTTP://home.talkcity.com/TheSanitarium/Da_Muck/

"You wear a Hawaiian shirt and bring your music on a RUN? No wonder they
call you Howling Mad..." -- Rabid the Pysad.
Message no. 15
From: Iridios iridios@*****.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:53:28 -0500
dbuehrer@****.org wrote:

> FWIW, we still don't know how the damn things stay in the air.

I've always imagined it to be a "controlled fall" with the jets
providing enough downthrust to keep it off the ground but enough
forward thrust to move. Of course, I also feel that they would have
swivel jets like a harrier jet and a body shaped to aid "flight" by
providing some lift during forward movement.

--
Iridios
"Accept what you cannot avoid,
Avoid what you cannot accept."
Message no. 16
From: dbuehrer@****.org dbuehrer@****.org
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:16:35 -0700
Gurth wrote:
\ According to dbuehrer@****.org, at 9:00 on 16 Nov 99, the word on
\ the street was...
\
\ > I think the jet intake (of the T-bird) should be on the top, in the back.
\
\ Or else has shutters like on some Russian jet fighters (e.g. MiG-27) for
\ when it's flying over terrain with lots of loose debris.

Debris isn't the problem, it's those pesky bullets and cannon rounds :)

Current MBTs have their engines in the back, with intake and venting on the
top, in part because of that. Unless you have to turn tail and run you'll
likely be taking weapons fire from the front and sides. Even from the rear
there's enough armor to stop minor attacks (or maybe more, I'm not an MBT
expert). The only attacks you'll be taking from the top are from aircraft
and top-down anti-tank missiles, in which case you're screwed anyway and
damage to the engine is your last concern.

IMHO T-birds would follow the same approach. It wouldn't be that hard to
design the body/turret to "suck" air into a top/rear intake while the
T-bird is moving at high speeds. At low speeds, or while hovering, a
top/rear intake is good because it's less likely to suck in debris kicked
up from the jet wash. It might in fact be a good idea to put in shutters
to keep down debris intake (and keep out the stray bullet) while moving
slowly or hovering.

-Graht
--
"Be kind; for everyone is having a hard battle."
-Plato
Message no. 17
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:35:08 -0500
> At 12:41 PM 11/16/99 -0500, Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
> :David, exactly *WHAT* kind of stuff are you smoking??? There's a
> :Banshee in the older Rigger Black Book.
>
> I've seen this pointed out a couple of times today already, and I'm
> just wondering something. Am I the only person who remembers that
> there was a picture of the GMC Banshee in Equipment chapter of the
> original core rulebook, published a decade ago (a few years before
> RBB, I might add)? :)

No, you're not. Must just be us Old Guys[TM]. Remember when it was
*affordable?* :)

> I even remember when that vehicle class was still called 'panzers'.
> They weren't called 'thunderbirds' until the NAN books came out, and
> FASA must have taken a liking to the term, because they've used it
> ever since.

I remember being very confused, as panzer means "tank" where I come from.
All I could think was, "Tanks don't fly." Well, those did. :)
Message no. 18
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:48:57 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:33 PM 11/16/99 +0100, Gurth wrote:
::6. Everyone knows that if you drop toast that it always falls
::butter side down.
:
:Someone has actually done serious research into this...

I did a high school science fair project on it. It's actually a
phenomenon linked to the height from which the toast is dropped. Most
dropped toast tumbles as it falls, and in the time it takes to fall
from the height of your average counter or table, the toast only has
time to tumble approximately one half revolution. When dropped from
heights of 3 meters or so, the toast can tumble a full revolution and
lands how it was dropped, butter side up. As the distance and
duration of the fall increases, the side which the toast lands
alternates between butter down and butter up, depending on whether
the toast can complete a full revolution by the time of impact.


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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 19
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 15:20:16 -0600
:2. Our group is currently trying to raise enough cash for our team decker
to
:upgrade her deck - I *HATE* that fragging SOTA! One way I came up with was
:to knock over a couple banks. What would this do to a runners reputation -
:as runners seem to consider themselves one step above the ordinary
:criminals. As much of the worlds cash is now e-cash I have to take a decker
:along to deck into the bank once we's taken control of the branch. This
:would also make the job easier for the decker as they'd have an inside line
:from inside the actual bank negating at least some of the ICE. How much
:Nuyen would you expect to get from a middle/high class bank and what type
of
:security would you put around the bank both physically at the branch and
ICE
:wise. A final consideration is that wouldn't the bank/corp and the cops
hunt
:the runners that much harder than usual as this is a high publicity run -
:more so than a data steal as data steals don't come up on the news as much
:as bank robberies.

You can ignore the SOTA rules if you want- they are optional. You will
STILL want a better deck than a starting character can have. :)
I don't think robbing a bank would hurt thier reps. If they can pull it
off smoothly, it could help, I'd think. But if they do the job propperly,
and don't get caught, who is going to know? Are they putting it on thier
resume?
It seems like the basic job consists of putting a lot of the banks funds
(easily traceable- they can't just use the e-cash earmarked as bellonging to
the bank, since it is regesterd cred) onto a certified credstick, or at
least in some sort of annonomous account in a foriegn territory (Carib
Leauge, most likely- home of the bankers used by successful pirates world
wide).
I'm not sure just how that is done, but since it is the only safe way to
steel money, there are likely speical security measures. The bank can
probably only traansfer so much at once, and so much per day, without
special authorization from the home offices (more hacking for the decker to
get those authorization code files if they want to get the big haul). Since
certfied cred is actually not a common thing for banks to deal in, I'd
expect those limits would be low- maybe 10K per transfer and 100-500k per
day (afaik, that is about the limits banks place on cash transfers today,
without special approval).
The characters would be wanted, and likely the police would be involved-
an extra-territorial bank would likely have extradition agreements for bank
robbers, or laws about "interference of commerce" could make it a crime the
government cares about. The news would not likely be big. Bank robberies
today are intentionally kept OUT of the news, to avoid letting people know
how often it happens and wether the crooks get caught, and thus avoid people
deciding "its worth the risk". The hunt would be as intense as you wish,
but if they did the job right, shouldn't go far. They just need to be real
careful not to leave tracable evidence, or carry any out with them. If they
can go the first 48 hours, I'd say they are likely safe, unless some later
capper links them to the bank crime.

:3. C2 Decks. These little doo-hickies are built into and in the space next
:to the brain inside the skull. The whole point of having a gap between the
:brain and skull is so that if you get hit on the head the brain wont bang
:into the skull causing brain damage. As the C2 Deck takes up space wouldn't
:you be more likely to get brain damage/ordinary damage if you had one if
you
:got whacked over the head?


I think they get built into the skulls bones (or plastic replacements
thereof), not into the cranial cavity.

:5. The Game Police. In a part of the SR3 rules there is a section that says
:something along the lines of 'we wont come round to make sure your
following
:the rules absolutely'. Does this mean the Gaming police has been disbanded?
:Is no-one enforcing the rules now? Have the gaming Police been retired and
:become civilians? Have they stayed on as quasi un-official civilian
:vigilantes? Or have FASA kept them on as part of a classified top secret
arm
:of FASA - think Men In Black - paid out of secret slush funds?

I have no knowledge of these things. Now move along, citizen.


:6. <snip>

Um, sure. Whatever.



Mongoose
Message no. 20
From: Grim Shear grim_shear@*******.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:01:12 CST
>1. What the hell does a T-Bird look like? Our group has had many
>*intensive* discussions - read fights - about what they look like. I've
>read/heard that they are large wedge shaped. COME ON. Are we seriously
>being told that one of the most destructive vehicles circa >2060 looks like
>a door stop?
<snip>
>6. Everyone knows that if you drop toast that it always falls butter side
>down. Its also well known that when cats fall they usually land >on their
>feet. So what would happen if you buttered the back of a cat >and threw it
>out of a 5th story window? Which side would it land on? >Maybe it would
>land on its side - both forces cancelling the other out.

First, a T-Bird is an aerodynamic plane; its designed for high speed using
vectored-thrust engines (like the Harrier jet).
And as for the cat fall. If you're going by whats IRL, after three stories,
the cat goes limp so that its doesn't break its legs when it hits the
ground.

Grim Shear
"Dammit man, I thought I told you to throw the _Grenade_
not the pin." Spoken soon after telling a _really_ stupid
(and well roleplayed Troll), to pull the pin and throw it.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 21
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 17:06:59 EST
In a message dated 11/16/1999 1:36:20 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dbuehrer@****.org writes:

> Sorry. I of course realized my error after I hit the send key :-/
>
> FWIW, we still don't know how the damn things stay in the air.

(*Image of K looking at David with lots of confusion on his face*)

We don't??? I thought that's what those big engines were for guy ;-P

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 22
From: Arcaist arcaist@*****.de
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 00:27:10 +0100
> Egypt is in North Africa :) The wasteland thing is not really
> mentioned anywhere I can remember, rather it's usually
> said that they're held in the Sahara. Weird place for fighting
> a war, it seems to me... Armies avoid such deserts pretty
> much like the plague if given half a chance (e.g. in

Chances are best there to avoid too much collateral damage. At last,
it's a test for troops, not for buildings... :)

> I don't think mercenaries are involved very much. The corps prefer
to
> use their own troops in Desert Wars, IIRC.

Definately. Why spend money for merceneries if your own troops can do
just as good and are training against real, live humans the same time.

> Someone has actually done serious research into this...

It has to do something with the normal height of western tables and
the bread only beeing able to rotate half while travelling said
distance, IIRC :)

--
(>) Arcaist
WHO'S NEXT ?!

BABGY #101 ::: MMLX ::: www.s-s-r.de
Message no. 23
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:17:37 -0800
On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 15:11:40 GMT "Simon Nixon" <a_9365@*******.com>
writes:
<SNIP>
> 1. What the hell does a T-Bird look like? Our group has had many
*intensive*
> discussions - read fights - about what they look like. I've read/heard
that
> they are large wedge shaped. COME ON. Are we seriously being told that
one
> of the most destructive vehicles circa 2060 looks like a door stop?
<SNIP>

Aerodynamic flying bricks. They make heaps of noise and can fly about as
far as you can throw them.

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 24
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:14:43 -0800
On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:48:57 -0500 Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.com>
writes:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> At 07:33 PM 11/16/99 +0100, Gurth wrote:
> ::6. Everyone knows that if you drop toast that it always falls
> ::butter side down.

> :Someone has actually done serious research into this...

> I did a high school science fair project on it. It's actually a
> phenomenon linked to the height from which the toast is dropped. Most
> dropped toast tumbles as it falls, and in the time it takes to fall
> from the height of your average counter or table, the toast only has
> time to tumble approximately one half revolution. When dropped from
> heights of 3 meters or so, the toast can tumble a full revolution and
> lands how it was dropped, butter side up. As the distance and
> duration of the fall increases, the side which the toast lands
> alternates between butter down and butter up, depending on whether
> the toast can complete a full revolution by the time of impact.

As I understand it, someone actually wrote a thesis (MS or Ph.D ...
possibly even honors BS) on how many pieces chalk breaks into when
dropped. The result was 3. The author apparently calculated this number
based upon the effect of sheer(?) stress on the chalk when it hits the
ground.

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

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Message no. 25
From: Requiem req@*********.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 19:15:57 -0800
That, and Walter John Williams (IIRC) coined "panzers" way the hell before,
in _Hard_Wired_, refering to pretty much exactly the same thing, and maybe
FASA wanted to be different?

Req

At 01:02 PM 11/16/99 -0500, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 12:41 PM 11/16/99 -0500, Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
>:David, exactly *WHAT* kind of stuff are you smoking??? There's a
>:Banshee in the older Rigger Black Book.
>
>I've seen this pointed out a couple of times today already, and I'm
>just wondering something. Am I the only person who remembers that
>there was a picture of the GMC Banshee in Equipment chapter of the
>original core rulebook, published a decade ago (a few years before
>RBB, I might add)? :)
>
>I even remember when that vehicle class was still called 'panzers'.
>They weren't called 'thunderbirds' until the NAN books came out, and
>FASA must have taken a liking to the term, because they've used it
>ever since.
>
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>--
> -- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
>PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
>C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
>
>
Message no. 26
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:21:02 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:06 PM 11/16/99 -0500, Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
::FWIW, we still don't know how the damn things stay in the air.
:
:(*Image of K looking at David with lots of confusion on his face*)
:
:We don't??? I thought that's what those big engines were for guy

Nah. Those are just for show. All T-Birds actually come equipped with
a cat that has a piece of buttered toast strapped to it's back,
creating a levitational effect that lifts the t-bird. :) :) :)


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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 27
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 01:28:55 -0400
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Paul Gettle."
] I did a high school science fair project on it. It's actually a
] phenomenon linked to the height from which the toast is dropped. Most
] dropped toast tumbles as it falls, and in the time it takes to fall
] from the height of your average counter or table, the toast only has
] time to tumble approximately one half revolution. When dropped from
] heights of 3 meters or so, the toast can tumble a full revolution and
] lands how it was dropped, butter side up. As the distance and
] duration of the fall increases, the side which the toast lands
] alternates between butter down and butter up, depending on whether
] the toast can complete a full revolution by the time of impact.

Once again, science takes a question full of mirth and wonder and
squashes the mystery right out of it :)

-Boondocker
Message no. 28
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 01:32:27 -0400
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Simon Nixon."
] The reason that I asked is that our group is currently chasing an NPC adept
] that has the 'Cat Fall' power - the one where you can fall so many stories
] and land on your feet without damage. The adept is constantly
escaping us by
] jumping out of windows or off roofs. As the groups mage, to combat this I
] have decided to butter the adepts head thus cancelling his cat fall power
] <grin>. I devised a

<snip methods of appplying butter to an Adept's head>

Well, I'd slather butter all over a clip of APDS, and then use those
(and a nice, heavy pistol) as a vehicle with which to apply the butter
to the Adept's head. Hopefully that would take care of things.

-Boondocker
Message no. 29
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 00:52:10 EST
In a message dated 11/16/1999 10:24:03 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
RunnerPaul@*****.com writes:

> ::FWIW, we still don't know how the damn things stay in the air.
> :
> :(*Image of K looking at David with lots of confusion on his face*)
> :
> :We don't??? I thought that's what those big engines were for guy
>
> Nah. Those are just for show. All T-Birds actually come equipped with
> a cat that has a piece of buttered toast strapped to it's back,
> creating a levitational effect that lifts the t-bird. :) :) :)

(*more crazy imagery of K imagining his cat Peter with toast on his back and
hovering in mid-air....yeah, I could *almost* believe he'd be capable of
that... *) ;-)

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 30
From: Raije murk@****.org.au
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:02:09 +1100
> Hi all! Just writing to get a few answers to some questions that I have -
> that or a couple cheap laughs from the answers <grin>! I'm fairly new at
all
> this, I've just been lurking in the background until now, so be gentle!
I'm
> also a complete technology ignoramus so if this all goes wrong don't blame
> me. Well you can try, but I'll just stick my fingers in my ears and hum
and
> generally ignore you :).

oh dear. The newbies are getting smarter <eg>

> 2. Our group is currently trying to raise enough cash for our team decker
to
> upgrade her deck - I *HATE* that fragging SOTA! One way I came up with was
> to knock over a couple banks. What would this do to a runners reputation -
> as runners seem to consider themselves one step above the ordinary

My team was forced to rob an "old-fashioned" bank by blowing the vault and
taking the "cash". The Yakuza made them do it, or else one of the team's
contacts would have bitten the dust (although I still think its safer
borrowing from the Yaks than a Scottish blooded person).

I would suggest getting the decker to "knock over" a few e-banks. In case
youhadn't read Shadowboxer <waits for groans to stop>, there was a part
where the decker emptied out the team leader's bank account, and they filled
it right back up so that "he wouldn't know"...heh. That was smart. But be
very careful with this one...do it many times (read: more than twice or so),
and you'll get bank deckers so far up your arse you'll...well you get the
idea now anyways...


> 3. C2 Decks. These little doo-hickies are built into and in the space next
> to the brain inside the skull. The whole point of having a gap between the
> brain and skull is so that if you get hit on the head the brain wont bang
> into the skull causing brain damage. As the C2 Deck takes up space
wouldn't
> you be more likely to get brain damage/ordinary damage if you had one if
you
> got whacked over the head?

#1. Don't. Get. C2. Decks. Sorry, I have a mental conditioning against
them. I play as Otaku (stupid fools think they can look like us by using C2
decks...tut, tut, tut)

#2. A whack over the head is a whack over the head. Cranial cyberware is
implanted in place of a piece of Skull. Read the details in SR3.

> 4. What are Desert Wars?

Ever play rugby? Its like that, but more violent, and with guns. And
corporations. Kinda. Okay so not quite but its late, okay?

> 6. Everyone knows that if you drop toast that it always falls butter side
> down. Its also well known that when cats fall they usually land on their
> feet. So what would happen if you buttered the back of a cat and threw it
> out of a 5th story window? Which side would it land on? Maybe it would
land
> on its side - both forces cancelling the other out.

I've got a better question. If you throw a cat out the window of a moving
car...does it become kitty litter? What colour do smurfs turn when you
choke them? Was smurfette a cheap hooker?

> Well thanks a lot in anticipation for and help rendered, curses flames and
> vulger gestures also sent out for anyone else :)

something I've learned around here...anticipation is overrated...usually
your original question sparks some massive debate about something you cared
nothing about *w*

> FlakJacket
> -Need one for all the drek being thrown at me

I've got a few spare...I've even got a mailbomb shelter, but I haven't
needed to use it yet. Stress _YET_.

> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Thanks for the offer, but I think I'll pass (why is it that people swear
against MS, but then use their mail service?)

_____________________sabrepunk@**********.net_
Raije
sabrepunk@**********.net
UIN-2799894
~Simple Guide to Cyberpunk~
http://gateway.to/cyberpunk/
"Shit Happens, So Carry Toilet Paper"
Message no. 31
From: Raije murk@****.org.au
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:05:02 +1100
> Actually, that's not technically true. There are pictures of the
> GMC Banshee in the original Rigger Blackbook. Unfortunately, it's
> woefully out of print, so that doesn't do you a whole lot of good. But
> basically, Graht's description is pretty spot-on. It looks like an
> aerodynamic tank with stubby little wings and vectored thrust outlets on
> the undersides.

That's what I miss. All the old sourcebooks had pics in them, so that you
could see what gear looked like. Mark liked that. Mark liked that a lot.
Local Secondhand bookstore is rich coz of mark. Mark not so rich anymore.
Mark Hungry...Mark shaddup now

_____________________sabrepunk@**********.net_
Raije
sabrepunk@**********.net
UIN-2799894
~Simple Guide to Cyberpunk~
http://gateway.to/cyberpunk/
"Shit Happens, So Carry Toilet Paper"
Message no. 32
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:18:21 +0100
According to dbuehrer@****.org, at 12:16 on 16 Nov 99, the word on the
street was...

> Debris isn't the problem, it's those pesky bullets and cannon rounds :)
>
> Current MBTs have their engines in the back, with intake and venting on the
> top, in part because of that.

Erm... that's not quite why an MBT has the engine at the back :) The
normal reason is because that's the only place in the tank where there's
still room -- the front is taken up by the driver's position, and the
middle by the turret. Another reason is that the drive sprockets are
usually at the rear (it's more efficient that way), and running a big
drive shaft from the front to the rear wastes a lot of space. And yet
another argument for putting the engine in the back is because that allows
the front of the tank to be lower (the engine deck is frequently the
highest point on the hull).

In fact, if you want a really well-protected tank, one option is to place
the engine at the front because it will provide extra "armor" for the crew
(as the Israelis did with their Merkava). Yes, a hit in the engine may
disable the tank, but the crew will survive to fight on in another tank.

> IMHO T-birds would follow the same approach. It wouldn't be that hard to
> design the body/turret to "suck" air into a top/rear intake while the
> T-bird is moving at high speeds. At low speeds, or while hovering, a
> top/rear intake is good because it's less likely to suck in debris kicked
> up from the jet wash. It might in fact be a good idea to put in shutters
> to keep down debris intake (and keep out the stray bullet) while moving
> slowly or hovering.

One mroe reason I can think if is to mask its radar signature. At least, I
assume it's clad in some kind of radar-absorbant material to keep the
signature at least a bit high -- a big flying lump of steel kind of stands
out on most radar systems, I imagine :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Destiny is a state of mind
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 33
From: dbuehrer@****.org dbuehrer@****.org
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 07:09:31 -0700
Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
\ In a message dated 11/16/1999 1:36:20 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
\ dbuehrer@****.org writes:
\
\ > Sorry. I of course realized my error after I hit the send key :-/
\ >
\ > FWIW, we still don't know how the damn things stay in the air.
\
\ (*Image of K looking at David with lots of confusion on his face*)
\
\ We don't??? I thought that's what those big engines were for guy ;-P

Okay, I'm having some blood sugar problems, and I'm having a hard time
thinking straight. I'm going to go silent for a while.

-Graht
--
"The light is reached not by turning back from the darkness,
but by going through it."
Message no. 34
From: Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:55:05 -0200
On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 15:11:40 GMT
"Simon Nixon" <a_9365@*******.com> wrote:

>
> 1. What the hell does a T-Bird look like? Our group has had many *intensive*
> discussions - read fights - about what they look like. I've read/heard that
> they are large wedge shaped. COME ON. Are we seriously being told that one
> of the most destructive vehicles circa 2060 looks like a door stop?

Since they have big jets underneath them, they can be pretty
irreegular and still fly high and fast :) . All those turrets and
missile racks don't leave the t-bird with a nice figure.
There may also be "spinner cars", civilian LAVs that look like
luxury models but have vectored thrust propellers instead of wheels
(like the ones in Blade Runner).


> 3. C2 Decks. These little doo-hickies are built into and in the space next
> to the brain inside the skull. The whole point of having a gap between the
> brain and skull is so that if you get hit on the head the brain wont bang
> into the skull causing brain damage. As the C2 Deck takes up space wouldn't
> you be more likely to get brain damage/ordinary damage if you had one if you
> got whacked over the head?

It needen't be outside the brain, and the microscopic (or
nearly) so circuits that make up most of the deck will be mingling with
your neurons :) .

>

Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455
Message no. 35
From: Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:25:55 -0200
On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 19:33:52 +0100
"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> Or else has shutters like on some Russian jet fighters (e.g. MiG-27) for
> when it's flying over terrain with lots of loose debris.

I saw on a magazine that someone managed to build a LAV car not
too long ago, using four rather small engines. It wasn't much heavier
than a normal car, and according to the magazine could fly up to 600
meters and manage a speed of 800km/h (Speed 666 in Rigger 2 terms :) ).
If you magnify that a bit for a military LAV perhaps you can
make it fly without the same fuss we generaly assume it's engines to
make... Using propellers (maybe the frictionless magnetic carbon-alloy
type) would be great for reducing jet slag and weight too, perhaps
opening possibilities for civilian models...

Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455
Message no. 36
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:15:05 +0100
According to Bira, at 12:55 on 17 Nov 99, the word on the street was...

> There may also be "spinner cars", civilian LAVs that look like
> luxury models but have vectored thrust propellers instead of wheels
> (like the ones in Blade Runner).

Or as per Cyberpunk 2020, where there are plenty of civilian LAVs using
jet engines for propulsion. It seems to me, though, that such vehicles
would not be very common, not in the least because governments would
likely frown on them. A poorly-trained "driver" stands a good chance of
crashing one, and if a normal car crash is bad, think about what a crash
at 500 to 1,000 km/h, coming from the sky will do... You wouldn't just
have cars ramming the corners of buildings, or each other -- they'd come
crashing through your roof on an engine failure, or two of them will do
that if there's a mid-air collision.

Then there's the noise and jet exhaust (or downdraft from the rotor
system) they produce, which is sure to make a mess of any city street that
hasn't been kept spotless by the city's sanitation department (and which
city in the 2050s is?).

Plus, IMHO at least for the law they're aircraft, which means you need a
pilot's license instead of a driver's license, to operate them. Extra
expense, so not many people would buy one unless they already have a
pilot's license, or the money to get one.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Destiny is a state of mind
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 37
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:13:50 EST
In a message dated 11/17/1999 11:35:54 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br writes:

> If you magnify that a bit for a military LAV perhaps you can
> make it fly without the same fuss we generaly assume it's engines to
> make... Using propellers (maybe the frictionless magnetic carbon-alloy
> type) would be great for reducing jet slag and weight too, perhaps
> opening possibilities for civilian models...

Ewww...Bira...I had forgotten about *those* kinds of propellers.

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 38
From: Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 16:03:26 -0200
On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:15:05 +0100
"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> Then there's the noise and jet exhaust (or downdraft from the rotor
> system) they produce, which is sure to make a mess of any city street that
> hasn't been kept spotless by the city's sanitation department (and which
> city in the 2050s is?).

And who says it has to be perfect? The difference between a
cyberpunk (-ish) setting and Jetson-style Space Opera is that tech isn't
neat and pretty :) .

> Plus, IMHO at least for the law they're aircraft, which means you need a
> pilot's license instead of a driver's license, to operate them. Extra
> expense, so not many people would buy one unless they already have a
> pilot's license, or the money to get one.

There will be enough people dying to get their hands on it, you
can bet :) . The though of a DocWagon spinner ambulance keeps getting to
my mind :) .

Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455
Message no. 39
From: Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 16:03:29 -0200
On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:13:50 EST
Ereskanti@***.com wrote:

> In a message dated 11/17/1999 11:35:54 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
> ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br writes:
>
> > If you magnify that a bit for a military LAV perhaps you can
> > make it fly without the same fuss we generaly assume it's engines to
> > make... Using propellers (maybe the frictionless magnetic carbon-alloy
> > type) would be great for reducing jet slag and weight too, perhaps
> > opening possibilities for civilian models...
>
> Ewww...Bira...I had forgotten about *those* kinds of propellers.
>
> -K

Now you have a lot of possibilities to think about (and so do I!
:) ).

Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455
Message no. 40
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:50:55 -0500 (EST)
Bira <ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br> writes:
> On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:15:05 +0100
> "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> > Plus, IMHO at least for the law they're aircraft, which means you need a
> > pilot's license instead of a driver's license, to operate them. Extra
> > expense, so not many people would buy one unless they already have a
> > pilot's license, or the money to get one.
>
> There will be enough people dying to get their hands on it, you
> can bet :) . The though of a DocWagon spinner ambulance keeps getting to
> my mind :) .

Out of curiousity, can anyone think of a decent way of
armoring the bottom of a spinner car?

Mark
Message no. 41
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 14:15:53 -0500
> > > Plus, IMHO at least for the law they're aircraft, which means you
need a
> > > pilot's license instead of a driver's license, to operate them. Extra
> > > expense, so not many people would buy one unless they already have a
> > > pilot's license, or the money to get one.
> >
> > There will be enough people dying to get their hands on it, you
> > can bet :) . The though of a DocWagon spinner ambulance keeps getting to
> > my mind :) .
>
> Out of curiousity, can anyone think of a decent way of
> armoring the bottom of a spinner car?

Bricks.
Message no. 42
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:08:32 EST
In a message dated 11/19/1999 2:10:08 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
SHODAN+@***.EDU writes:

> > There will be enough people dying to get their hands on it, you
> > can bet :) . The though of a DocWagon spinner ambulance keeps getting to
> > my mind :) .
>
> Out of curiousity, can anyone think of a decent way of
> armoring the bottom of a spinner car?

Armoring for the most part would be the same as it would for any other
aircraft (LAV?). Armoring the vents would of course be the "open space".
However, with Bira's consideration of a "magnetic coil propeller", then the
damage could actually be limited, as the "drive train" would be missing from
the intake/exiting shaft.

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 43
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 13:06:15 +0100
According to Bira, at 16:03 on 19 Nov 99, the word on the street was...

> And who says it has to be perfect? The difference between a
> cyberpunk (-ish) setting and Jetson-style Space Opera is that tech isn't
> neat and pretty :) .

Certainly, but all that junk in the street is not good on your engines,
either. If you want civilian LAVs in SR, by all means go ahead, but I
would urge you to seriously think about society's/the government's
attitude toward them.

> There will be enough people dying to get their hands on it, you
> can bet :) . The though of a DocWagon spinner ambulance keeps getting to
> my mind :) .

That's called "Trauma Team's AV-4" :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Destiny is a state of mind
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 44
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 13:06:15 +0100
According to Mark A Shieh, at 13:50 on 19 Nov 99, the word on the street
was...

> Out of curiousity, can anyone think of a decent way of
> armoring the bottom of a spinner car?

Sure. You just stick armor plating onto the bottom :) I can't see anything
very difficult about this, especially since it's probably easier to armor
the bottom of an LAV than a normal car (because you don't have wheel
wells, drive shafts, and other stuff that gets in your way).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Destiny is a state of mind
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 45
From: Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:34:42 -0200
On Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:50:55 -0500 (EST)
Mark A Shieh <SHODAN+@***.EDU> wrote:

> Bira <ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br> writes:
> > On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:15:05 +0100
> > "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> > > Plus, IMHO at least for the law they're aircraft, which means you need a
> > > pilot's license instead of a driver's license, to operate them. Extra
> > > expense, so not many people would buy one unless they already have a
> > > pilot's license, or the money to get one.
> >
> > There will be enough people dying to get their hands on it, you
> > can bet :) . The though of a DocWagon spinner ambulance keeps getting to
> > my mind :) .
>
> Out of curiousity, can anyone think of a decent way of
> armoring the bottom of a spinner car?
>
> Mark

If you manage to put the engines in clever spots, or install
well-designed shutters (if the engines are the small-turbine type), you
can armor the bottom of the car without much hassle. Of course the civilian
models won't have these features, but the more secure models (DocWagon's,
for example) will.
If a combat situation ever arises, they should be able to fly
high enough to avoid grenade explosions, while using antocannon or
minigun fire to stop the runner from lauching missiles (if that's the
power scale you play in :) ).
A series os smaller engines properly spaced (and perhaps not
pointing directly down) is also harder to hit than a single big one.


Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455
Message no. 46
From: Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:35:12 -0200
On Sat, 20 Nov 1999 13:06:15 +0100
"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> According to Bira, at 16:03 on 19 Nov 99, the word on the street was...
>
> > And who says it has to be perfect? The difference between a
> > cyberpunk (-ish) setting and Jetson-style Space Opera is that tech isn't
> > neat and pretty :) .
>
> Certainly, but all that junk in the street is not good on your engines,
> either. If you want civilian LAVs in SR, by all means go ahead, but I
> would urge you to seriously think about society's/the government's
> attitude toward them.

My runners will catch the beginning of the "wave", while no one
has not thought about the drawbacks of a spinner. After the first few
explosions, they'll start considering the problem of junk in the engines
:).

> > There will be enough people dying to get their hands on it, you
> > can bet :) . The though of a DocWagon spinner ambulance keeps getting to
> > my mind :) .
>
> That's called "Trauma Team's AV-4" :)

Exactly :) .

Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455
Message no. 47
From: Anders Swenson anders@**********.com
Subject: First Time Questions
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 21:18:07 -0800
----- Original Message -----
From: Bira <ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 1999 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: First Time Questions


>
> On Sat, 20 Nov 1999 13:06:15 +0100
> "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
>
> > According to Bira, at 16:03 on 19 Nov 99, the word on the street was...
> >
> > > And who says it has to be perfect? The difference between a
> > > cyberpunk (-ish) setting and Jetson-style Space Opera is that tech
isn't
> > > neat and pretty :) .
> >
> > Certainly, but all that junk in the street is not good on your engines,
> > either. If you want civilian LAVs in SR, by all means go ahead, but I
> > would urge you to seriously think about society's/the government's
> > attitude toward them.
>
> My runners will catch the beginning of the "wave", while no one
> has not thought about the drawbacks of a spinner. After the first few
> explosions, they'll start considering the problem of junk in the engines
> :).
>
> > > There will be enough people dying to get their hands on it, you
> > > can bet :) . The though of a DocWagon spinner ambulance keeps getting
to
> > > my mind :) .
> >
> > That's called "Trauma Team's AV-4" :)
>
Did anybody catch that they're called Panzers because that's what Walter
John Williams called them in Hardwired? T-birds is probably preferred by
FASA because it doesn't appear unded WJW and R.Talsorian
copyrights. --Anders

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about First Time Questions, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!