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Message no. 1
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 11:25:59 +0200
>I know! Those dumbfuck Americans! Who the hell do they think they are?!
>That stupid Constitution of theirs! Giving them all those rights and
>everything.

Hey, take it easy! I didn't mean to flame anybody, I was just making a
general remark about how those gun nuts explain laws that have a different
meaning than they want to give them. And to tell the truth (that _is_
allowed, right? he asked sarcastically), I don't see why people worship a
219-year-old constitution so much instead of adapting it to the modern
times? I know there are "amendments" and everything, but why not just
rewrite the whole thing, modernize it or something?

This is getting off-topic, I guess...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Give it birth to the machine
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 2
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 05:28:53 -0700
Gurth writes:

>rewrite the whole thing, modernize it or something?

Geeze, what a shocker. Arguably one of the most powerful countries in
the world, and we didn't even think to ask Gurth for help in determining
our governmental system. And him an unofficial Shadowrun goo-roo!
What were we thinking?? No wonder that, In Shadowrun, the USA is
fragmented into lots of little chunks run by elves, rednecks, liberals,
Native Americans... If we'd only -modernized-... Golly! Better put
mister Gurth in the White House, pronto, so he can get to work
rewriting the Constitution. It might even cut down on the volume of
his posts....

but I doubt it.

-E
Message no. 3
From: cabanc@******.WKU.EDU
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 08:17:56 CDT
Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:

>Hey, take it easy! I didn't mean to flame anybody, I was just making a
>general remark about how those gun nuts explain laws that have a different
>meaning than they want to give them. And to tell the truth (that _is_
>allowed, right? he asked sarcastically), I don't see why people worship a
>219-year-old constitution so much instead of adapting it to the modern
>times? I know there are "amendments" and everything, but why not just
>rewrite the whole thing, modernize it or something?

Uhh, amendments are modernization. An amendment has equal
application as the rest of the Constitution. The provision for
amendments was put in to allow for changes.

And we don't rewrite because that would call for a
Constitutional Convention. They are allowed to come up with an idea
for a whole new government. And nobody in the current government
wants that.


>Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

Candi Cabaniss
CABANC@******.wku.edu
Message no. 4
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 15:51:46 +0200
> >I know! Those dumbfuck Americans! Who the hell do they think they are?!
> >That stupid Constitution of theirs! Giving them all those rights and
> >everything.
>
> Hey, take it easy! I didn't mean to flame anybody, I was just making a
> general remark about how those gun nuts explain laws that have a different
> meaning than they want to give them. And to tell the truth (that _is_
> allowed, right? he asked sarcastically), I don't see why people worship a
> 219-year-old constitution so much instead of adapting it to the modern
> times? I know there are "amendments" and everything, but why not just
> rewrite the whole thing, modernize it or something?

Well thats tradition for ya, I dont mean to say that its good or that its
bad its just a part of human nature. I wrote an essay about the FOIA
(Freedom Of Information Act) in America and similar pieces of legislation
in Europe and the rest of the world. Well guess what ? Sweeden has had a
similar law since the 17th century !!! Hows that for old ? Especially for a
law that has to do with modern electronic media.

PS: As for the FOIA kudos to the dudes that designed it, its fragging cool
and one of the few things coming from the US that I really find worth imitating.
--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 5
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 16:48:56 +0200
> Geeze, what a shocker. Arguably one of the most powerful countries in
> the world, and we didn't even think to ask Gurth for help in determining
> our governmental system.

Oh yes, we are so cool aint we ? Why dont you say it outright, the most
powerfull country in the world. If it werent for the good'ol US they'd
all either be commies or dying form starvation by now.
Well Eve how about coming down to earth now?

> And him an unofficial Shadowrun goo-roo!
> What were we thinking?? No wonder that, In Shadowrun, the USA is
> fragmented into lots of little chunks run by elves, rednecks, liberals,
> Native Americans... If we'd only -modernized-... Golly!

Well SR was written by americans, so I think that they should have a pretty
good idea of whats going on over there.

> Better put
> mister Gurth in the White House, pronto, so he can get to work
> rewriting the Constitution. It might even cut down on the volume of
> his posts....
>
> but I doubt it.

This was a rather low blow, how about continuing that insect spirit
thread :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 6
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 11:20:00 -0400
>>>>> "Gurth" == Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:

Gurth> but why not just rewrite the whole thing, modernize it or something?

Actually, I'm a proponent of doing just that. But, unfortunately, it's not
going to happen, because a majority of the US citizenship are a bunch of
sheep who belive everything the politicians tell them, and the politicians
like things just the way they are, thankyouverymuch.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox |
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 7
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 01:18:06 +0930
Eve Forward wrote:
>
> Gurth writes:
>
> >rewrite the whole thing, modernize it or something?
>
> Geeze, what a shocker. Arguably one of the most powerful countries in
> the world, and we didn't even think to ask Gurth for help in determining
> our governmental system. And him an unofficial Shadowrun goo-roo!
[ Rest of rant deleted... ]

> but I doubt it.

Sorry, Eve, but the US constitution DOES need modernising. It's just that
no-one wants to call a Constitutional Convention, cause no-one knows what
would happen. You could end up with something massively unexpected, like
abortion issues and stuff determined in the constitution.

Heck, the Australian constituion needs modernising, and it's less than half
the age of yours.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 8
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 12:12:14 -0500
On Wed, 12 Apr 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> Sorry, Eve, but the US constitution DOES need modernising. It's just that
> no-one wants to call a Constitutional Convention, cause no-one knows what
> would happen. You could end up with something massively unexpected, like
> abortion issues and stuff determined in the constitution.

I don't think it needs modernising. The priciples are still well
spelled-out in it. What we need are people that stop re=inturrpreting it
every five minutes.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> Cthulhu Matata
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> http://att2.cs.mankato.msus.edu/~hayden
Message no. 9
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 03:28:39 +0930
Robert A. Hayden wrote:
>
> I don't think it needs modernising. The priciples are still well
> spelled-out in it. What we need are people that stop re=inturrpreting it
> every five minutes.
>

Some of the principles are no longer relevant. The Second Amendment is the
best example of this. Other principles have to be reasserted, with the First
being the best example. You also need to actually teach the principles and
the reasoning behind the constitution as well. Actually, most countries
need to do this (with their own constitutions, of course).

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 10
From: Kay and Pete Hanson <kidkaos@******.NET>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 01:31:27 -0500
>Robert A. Hayden wrote:
>>
>> I don't think it needs modernising. The priciples are still well
>> spelled-out in it. What we need are people that stop re=inturrpreting it
>> every five minutes.
>>
>
>Some of the principles are no longer relevant. The Second Amendment is the
>best example of this. Other principles have to be reasserted, with the First
>being the best example. You also need to actually teach the principles and
>the reasoning behind the constitution as well. Actually, most countries
>need to do this (with their own constitutions, of course).
>
>--
> Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
> Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
> are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
> Finger me for my geek code
>

Are you telling me I CAN'T have my nice gun collection????I have to get rid of
ALL of them, my flintlock, my black powder, my pistols, my shotgunsm my
hunting rifles....WHAT are you talking about???? SOME OF US collect
guns...even if WE
ARE GIRLS.
Out dated, maybe you ought to read the rest OF THE CONSTITUTION to see why
you are SUPPOSED to have guns...It's called responsibility. It's not
commonly refered to these days, but we are all in AMERICA supposed to be
able to defend our country from outside attacks. True, no one's done that
in the last few 100 years, but in the past they have...Dosen't SWITZERLAND
do the same????
ISN't required in some countries to bear arms????
Come on, the Magna Charta been out of date for a long time, still everyone
built there ideas of DEMOCRACY on that silly piece of parchment....Which was
signed at SWORD POINT.
KAY
whose teaching her 9 year old how to shoot and hunt.
Message no. 11
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 15:33:27 -0700
Well, actually, I don't really think it'd be justified to say the US
is -the- most powerful country, because it all depends how you define
power; military strength? Economic stability? Population? Wealth?
I'd be the first to agree that the USA has a lot of problems etc,
but I think that they are complex problems with complex roots, and
thinking that something as simple as -trying- to rewrite the
Constitution (and we've all seen what happens when people try to
rewrite things) will fix everything is pretty misguided. Who's not
down to earth, I might ask?

And sorry, I can't really do much with any insect spirit thread since
I had to be computer-absent for about a week once it started. Not that
I think anyone -wants- that thread continued.... :

-E
Message no. 12
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 15:57:40 -0700
Yeah, it'd be great to just have a slip of paper that said;
"Just be nice to each other and to everything else"

but try to get people to follow it....

-E
Message no. 13
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 15:53:56 -0700
We need to invent space travel -soon-; I don't want to be stuck
on this planet the way things are going....

Can you imagine the confusion if they tried to rewrite the
Constitution? All the little groups that would want to put in their
own provisions? You know that someone's gonna want to establish
issues like Abortion and Religion and Free Speech one way or the
other, "once and for all". What if they -do- decide it, majority-vote,
and maybe it won't be the way others think it should be? A lot of
maybes, I'll admit, but look at some of the other stuff this country
has come up with.

At this rate, I just want to -hope- that those wackos who -belive-
that the Shadowrun Age is actually coming, with MagicK etc, ar
right....

-E
Message no. 14
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 15:45:43 -0700
Sorry, Bob, but I repeat; that's not going to happen, and if it does,
it's not going to help. Trying to get the Con. re-written would
ensnarl the USA into buerocratic tangles that would take decades
to unravel. We need to fix things NOW. Actually, I think we could
fix a lot with the Con. the way it is; what's needed is education
and better enforcement of the laws we do have. Geeze, drugs are
illegal, and people have them; is making guns illegal going to
keep people from having them?

Still, everyone is entitiled to their own opinion. If you truly feel
that the Constitution should be re-written, then write to your
Senator, Congressman, whatever. Or run for office, do the work to get
into the position of power to change things. Or, do the work to get
into the field where you can help with what you feel is most
important, like medicine, law, or even conservation, like me. If
you've got the ideals, got the feeling that things aren't right,
then go -DO- something. Don't just sit there at your terminal and
complain about it, that doesn't help much. It could, if you complain
well enough to the right people, but this isn't it.

-E
Message no. 15
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 08:48:36 +0930
Kay and Pete Hanson wrote:
> Are you telling me I CAN'T have my nice gun collection????I have to get rid of
> ALL of them, my flintlock, my black powder, my pistols, my shotgunsm my
> hunting rifles....WHAT are you talking about???? SOME OF US collect
> guns...even if WE
> ARE GIRLS.

Keeping a collection would be fine. Registered guns aren't the problem, so
much, it's the vast pool of unregistered/illegal guns.

> Out dated, maybe you ought to read the rest OF THE CONSTITUTION to see why
> you are SUPPOSED to have guns...It's called responsibility. It's not
> commonly refered to these days, but we are all in AMERICA supposed to be
> able to defend our country from outside attacks. True, no one's done that
> in the last few 100 years, but in the past they have...Dosen't SWITZERLAND
> do the same????

I thought that the 2nd Amendment was so you could defend your country
against your own government... the Army and National Guard was were you
went if you wanted to defend against others.

Anyway, responsibility and Americans always seems to me like nitro and
glycerine.

> ISN't required in some countries to bear arms????

Israel is one such. On the other hand, with the exception of terrorist
activities, Israel has a low crime rate.

> Come on, the Magna Charta been out of date for a long time, still everyone
> built there ideas of DEMOCRACY on that silly piece of parchment....Which was
> signed at SWORD POINT.

Yep, those nasty barons held poor King John (ya know, Richard's brother...
big bad Prince John of Robin Hood fame) at sword point and made him sign.
Further more, I don't know of ANY system of government outside of the UK
still based on the Magna Carta. The House of Lords thing kinda annoys
republican parties.

Furthermore, since the signing of the Magna Carta, the British have
reviewed their govermental system on average at least once every hundred
years.

> KAY
> whose teaching her 9 year old how to shoot and hunt.

Fine. But what do you get out of killing those defenceless animals?
(Hunting's another issue altogether... )

Anyway, seeing as how I'm expecting on of the admins to start telling us to
shut up, this is going to be my last post on this issue (at least until the
next time it starts).

(Gee Damion, you were so right... )

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 16
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 08:59:42 +0930
Eve Forward wrote:
>
> We need to invent space travel -soon-; I don't want to be stuck
> on this planet the way things are going....

We've got it now... lots of proposals (fully funded and everything) to
establish cheap LEO ability for not that much (doesn't Jerry Pournelle say
he could do it for 300 million dollars, or something?) All you really need
to do is cut back the NASA bureaucracy.

> Can you imagine the confusion if they tried to rewrite the
> Constitution? All the little groups that would want to put in their
> own provisions? You know that someone's gonna want to establish
> issues like Abortion and Religion and Free Speech one way or the
> other, "once and for all". What if they -do- decide it, majority-vote,
> and maybe it won't be the way others think it should be? A lot of
> maybes, I'll admit, but look at some of the other stuff this country
> has come up with.

Not many maybes... But maybe that's a GOOD idea. Maybe you should decide on
Abortion and Religion and Free Speech once and for all. It'll be better
than the current situation, where a few hours driving can take you to a
state where abortions will be done with few questions asked, etc.

> At this rate, I just want to -hope- that those wackos who -belive-
> that the Shadowrun Age is actually coming, with MagicK etc, ar
> right....

The situation isn't that grim, Eve.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 17
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 19:45:51 -0400
>>>>> "Eve" == Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM> writes:

Eve> Yeah, it'd be great to just have a slip of paper that said;
Eve> "Just be nice to each other and to everything else"

We have one, it's called ``The New Testament.'' And don't get me started on
all the problems related to the Bible-thumpers :).

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | of skin.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 18
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 21:02:17 -0400
>>>>> "Robert" == Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
writes:

Robert> Keeping a collection would be fine. Registered guns aren't the
Robert> problem, so much, it's the vast pool of unregistered/illegal guns.

Which isn't as vast a pool (Sevastapol?:) as the media would have you
belive.

[...]

Robert> I thought that the 2nd Amendment was so you could defend your
Robert> country against your own government... the Army and National Guard
Robert> was were you went if you wanted to defend against others.

``Being a need for a strong militia, the right to keep and bear arms shall
not be infringed.''

The militia exists to protect the people from *any* threat. It just so
happens that the existing government could be considered as such.

Robert> Anyway, responsibility and Americans always seems to me like nitro
Robert> and glycerine.

Only in the past 20, 25 years or so has this attitude come about. And
though I'm a proponent of the calling of a Constitutional Convention, I'm
also of the opinion that it's already too late to fix the damage by any
conventional (heh:) means. In other words, I do belive that we're very
close to spilling over into the political structure that exists in the
Sixth World or something very much like it.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Happy Fun Ball has been shipped to our
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | troops in Saudi Arabia and is also being
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | dropped by our warplanes on Iraq.
Message no. 19
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 20:34:20 -0500
>Sorry, Bob, but I repeat; that's not going to happen, and if it does,
> [etc, etc, etc...]

I didn't write anything along those lines...

Frankly, I don't know if I'd be happy anywhere. I know I like the freedom
that I have here, but that's all waning due to too many years of P.C.
bullsh*t. (still thinks that politically correct means majority rule...and
is obviously clueless as to it's real meaning which is somewhere between
empower the minority to make it equal to the majority and making it more
powerful). I've been looking (albeit very lazily) at other countries to see
if there's any place different, but I'm just not seeing it. I always end up
losing some of my freedom. Even staying here that's happening. Thinking
about what Eve said about the world being better off if Shadowrun did come
to pass... I'd have to say yes in some ways, because it would divide the US
up into pieces that would be at least happier apart from the rest of the
diversity. Right now we have no enemy. No one has a military anywhere near
ours. So we have have our little wars on crime and drugs, etc... Which
have the nasty side effect of causing people to choose a side (even though
they know nothing about it) and turn it into the next Crusade, which causes
more violence. Maybe there is a certain amount of freedom in not having to
choose... (wonders if he'd be happier in Aztlan or CAS...definitely one of
those two for weather considerations. Wonders if maybe he's just too damn
tired to be typing about this crap...yep)


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 20
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 20:56:47 -0500
>> We need to invent space travel -soon-; I don't want to be stuck
>> on this planet the way things are going....
>
>We've got it now... lots of proposals (fully funded and everything) to
>establish cheap LEO ability for not that much (doesn't Jerry Pournelle say
>he could do it for 300 million dollars, or something?) All you really need
>to do is cut back the NASA bureaucracy.

And figure out the food problem. That damn eating thing always creeps up
when you throw several million people into space...

>Not many maybes... But maybe that's a GOOD idea. Maybe you should decide on
>Abortion and Religion and Free Speech once and for all. It'll be better
>than the current situation, where a few hours driving can take you to a
>state where abortions will be done with few questions asked, etc.

Force views on others? Can't do that... that's fascist. And I don't think
anyone anywhere would like the idea of a fascist USA.

>The situation isn't that grim, Eve.

We live in a world where people don't die and kids are born by the
truckload. Our planet is almost full. If not for the gun-toting USA,
Europe and Asia would've starved away by now. It would be really nice if we
would leave all the other countries alone and wait for them to die off
slowly... wouldn't take long. Nothing brings on riots like a week-long
stomach rumble... Then we'd have the planet to ourselves... no more whining
about Americans with guns (as if we'll all pack up our Remingtons and take
over Canada or something). No more whining about Constitution problems.
There's plenty of space, make your own country if you want! (Belgium would
look nice in my backyard...) More than enough food, resources, land,
water... Beautiful sight, no? Oh... I forgot you're not all Americans...

You all complain about us not enforcing enough laws on ourselves (not true..
multiply your current population tenfold, but make them from everywhere in
the world, now please everyone with regards to every law...yep, everyone).
If we suddenly changed that and mandated goverment policies on everything, I
don't think it would stop in the USA. And who could stop us?

Yeah, that whole idea is pretty sick. But there's a lot of people who're
trying to make it happen (whether they know it or not.. they seem to think
they know how to solve all the problems). It's best to just be content with
what you do know, than to argue about that which you know not. Another
popular saying for that is... A Little Ignorance Goes a Long Way... (hoping
this ignorant thread will wrap up soon...it's gone far enough)


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 21
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 20:57:47 -0500
>We have one, it's called ``The New Testament.'' And don't get me started on
>all the problems related to the Bible-thumpers :).

Amen, Brother Rat...


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 22
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 02:06:51 -0700
On Tue, 11 Apr 1995, Gurth wrote:

> >I know! Those dumbfuck Americans! Who the hell do they think they are?!
> >That stupid Constitution of theirs! Giving them all those rights and
> >everything.
>
> Hey, take it easy! I didn't mean to flame anybody, I was just making a
> general remark about how those gun nuts explain laws that have a different
> meaning than they want to give them. And to tell the truth (that _is_
> allowed, right? he asked sarcastically), I don't see why people worship a
> 219-year-old constitution so much instead of adapting it to the modern
> times? I know there are "amendments" and everything, but why not just
> rewrite the whole thing, modernize it or something?
>
While it sounds like a good idea (rewite the whole thing) there
are major practical political problems as there would be little consenus
on too many points (guns, pornography/free speach, abortion, prayer,
freedom of/from religon, taxes, states rights, individual rights,
homosexuality,) for it to be viable. Besides the lasttime 'we' empowered
a group of people to fix it they threw the whole thing out and wrote what
we have now. Another way of looking at it is that the Constution exists
and if we can't agree on a change there is something to fall back to.
Sort of a default setting.

> This is getting off-topic, I guess...
>
Yes it is....but it is interesting, especially comments from the outside
looking in...a view I am not able to see.

David Hinkley
(dhinkley@***.org)
Message no. 23
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:15:51 +0200
>Geeze, what a shocker. Arguably one of the most powerful countries in
>the world, and we didn't even think to ask Gurth for help in determining
>our governmental system. And him an unofficial Shadowrun goo-roo!
>What were we thinking?? No wonder that, In Shadowrun, the USA is
>fragmented into lots of little chunks run by elves, rednecks, liberals,
>Native Americans... If we'd only -modernized-... Golly! Better put
>mister Gurth in the White House, pronto, so he can get to work
>rewriting the Constitution.

Alright, I seem to have started something again... Look, I didn't mean to
flame anybody or anything, alright? It's just that it strikes _me_ (and I
repeat, _ME_ -- I have freedom of speech, right?) that the American
constitution is pretty old-fashioned. I don't want to go into the white
house, I don't want to rewrite anybody's constitution, I don't even know
what I'm getting at here, but I do know that I don't really give a shit
about politics or most other things for that matter. All I'm doing is making
observations, comparing things to the situation I'm familiar with, and
making up _MY_ mind as to which things _I_ would or would not want to live
with/under.
I know I'm touching delicate subjects here, and it looks like I could better
have kept my fingers from my keyboard, but it appears to me that "one of the
most powerful countries in the world" can't really manage its own internal
affairs. And this last statement is also bound to get me a whole load of
comments in my mailbox...

> It might even cut down on the volume of his posts....

What's the problem with that anyway? If you don't want to read what I have
to say, just skip past the messages. Or set up a filter if you really don't
want to see them...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dat wilt ik nou effe kwijt!
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 24
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:29:05 +0200
>Heck, the Australian constituion needs modernising, and it's less than half
>the age of yours.

I said "modernize" because that's what happened to the Dutch constitution
and criminal laws a few years back. Now before you all start jumping up and
down, let me say that one of my (possibly irritating) habits is comparing
everything to everything else...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dat wilt ik nou effe kwijt!
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Message no. 25
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:29:40 +0200
>Geeze, drugs are
>illegal, and people have them; is making guns illegal going to
>keep people from having them?

That problem started long ago, and I doubt if you can reverse it. Point is,
if people hadn't been given access to guns, it wouldn't be so difficult to
make them illegal.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dat wilt ik nou effe kwijt!
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 26
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:29:46 +0200
>Force views on others? Can't do that... that's fascist. And I don't think
>anyone anywhere would like the idea of a fascist USA.

I don't think many people would like a fascist country anywhere if they have
to live in it, really.

>Belgium would look nice in my backyard...

In that case, the question is: would I want you living nextdoor to me? :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 27
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:53:15 +0200
> in the last few 100 years, but in the past they have...Dosen't SWITZERLAND
> do the same????

They are required to learn how to fight, not to own their personal
collection of Uzis.

> ISN't required in some countries to bear arms????

Could you please give me one reference for that ?

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 28
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 22:04:24 +0930
Jani Fikouras wrote:
> > ISN't required in some countries to bear arms????
>
> Could you please give me one reference for that ?

Israel... well, technically it's not that you're required to bear arms,
it's just that you're required to join the military (even women, AFAIK.
Maybe FireFly could clue us in).

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 29
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 10:06:29 -0400
>>>>> "Robert" == Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
writes:

Robert> Israel... well, technically it's not that you're required to bear
Robert> arms, it's just that you're required to join the military (even
Robert> women, AFAIK. Maybe FireFly could clue us in).

All Israeli citizens of a certain age range, men and women alike, are
defacto members of the Israeli armed forces. A number of European nations
have similar requirements, though many don't require women to ``enlist.''

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | returned to its special container and
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | kept under refrigeration.
Message no. 30
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:35:01 -0400
On Tue, 11 Apr 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> ``Being a need for a strong militia, the right to keep and bear arms shall
> not be infringed.''

I'm staying out of this thread, but I wondered where this quote is from.

The Second Amendment reads as follows:

A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a
free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall
not be infringed.

--Craig
Message no. 31
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 14:16:40 -0400
>>>>> "Craig" == Craig S Dohmen
<dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU> writes:

Craig> On Tue, 11 Apr 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>> ``Being a need for a strong militia, the right to keep and bear arms
>> shall not be infringed.''

Craig> I'm staying out of this thread, but I wondered where this quote is
Craig> from.

Me, misquoting the 2nd Ammendment from memory. Much as I'd like to, I don't
carry the full text of the Constitution with me; it won't fit in my Newton.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
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PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 32
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 01:58:40 -0700
On Wed, 12 Apr 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> Sorry, Eve, but the US constitution DOES need modernising. It's just that
> no-one wants to call a Constitutional Convention, cause no-one knows what
> would happen. You could end up with something massively unexpected, like
> abortion issues and stuff determined in the constitution.

This is the sort of thing someone that doesn't understand the
Constitution of the United States would say.
If you were to study U.S. Constitutional law for many, many years
(like my father has), you would realize that the fundamental paradigm of
said document is not to provide a Napoleonic Code, but rather to provide
in writing some general principles and guidelines for sane government.
You will not understand this until you have read _The Federalist Papers_,
_The Declaration of Independence_, _The Constitution of the United
States_, and many other historical documents.
The Napoleonic Code, and the Code of Hammurabi and many other
legal systems tries to spell out appropriate penalties for certain
crimes. These legal systems are not about justice, they are about
governmentally mandated torts and restitution. The American legal
system, on the other hand, has the entire Civil Torts section of the law,
built up case by case.
I'm not claiming the American legal system and the Constitution
is perfect, but there are fine points about what are general principles
and rights and what are mundane statutes. That's why there's a _Bill of
Rights_. Many countries, such as the U.K., have no such thing. One is a
*subject* of the government, not a citizen.
In general, one needs to consult the facts and do research before
making blanket, generalized statements.

> Heck, the Australian constituion needs modernising, and it's less than half
> the age of yours.

Since I do not know Australian law, and you do not seem to be an
Australian lawyer (or barrister, I suppose) this statement is unprovable,
and hence useless. But if you have more facts about it, by all means
please inform me (off-line).

> -- > Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au

========================================================================
Adam Getchell "Invincibility is in oneself,
acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu vulnerability in the opponent."
http://instruction.ucdavis.edu/html/getchell.html
Message no. 33
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 17:32:13 +0200
> > > ISN't required in some countries to bear arms????
> >
> > Could you please give me one reference for that ?
>
> Israel... well, technically it's not that you're required to bear arms,
> it's just that you're required to join the military (even women, AFAIK.
> Maybe FireFly could clue us in).

I dont think that counts, soldiers are supposed to have guns. Its
a totally different thing. What Bob meant were civiliants, countries
that require that civiliants own weapons. I find that very hard to
believe.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 34
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 11:03:15 -0500
On Thu, 13 Apr 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:

> I dont think that counts, soldiers are supposed to have guns. Its
> a totally different thing. What Bob meant were civiliants, countries
> that require that civiliants own weapons. I find that very hard to
> believe.

Switzerland. If I understand, all adults have in their homes a
state-supplied automatic weapon because all adults are members of the
militia, just like in the U.S. (except our government doesn't give us a
gun).

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> Cthulhu Matata
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
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Message no. 35
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 18:11:56 +0200
> > I dont think that counts, soldiers are supposed to have guns. Its
> > a totally different thing. What Bob meant were civiliants, countries
> > that require that civiliants own weapons. I find that very hard to
> > believe.
>
> Switzerland. If I understand, all adults have in their homes a
> state-supplied automatic weapon because all adults are members of the
> militia, just like in the U.S. (except our government doesn't give us a
> gun).

I thought that the swiss were members of the army all their lives. They
do spend a couple of months every year/(some amount of time) doing excercises
dont they ?

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 36
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 13:12:51 -0400
>>>>> "Jani" == Jani Fikouras
<feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE> writes:

Jani> I thought that the swiss were members of the army all their lives.
Jani> They do spend a couple of months every year/(some amount of time)
Jani> doing excercises dont they ?

Switzerland doesn't have a standing army, remember? And a militia is not an
army; an army is comprised of soldiers, a militia is comprised of civilians.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
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Message no. 37
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: flaming Americans (was: Re: Renegade's Gun Mod's)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 20:40:25 GMT
In message <199504121053.MAA11236@****.informatik.uni-Bremen.de>
SHADOWRN@*****.nic.surfnet.nl writes:
> > in the last few 100 years, but in the past they have...Dosen't SWITZERLAND
> > do the same????
>
> They are required to learn how to fight, not to own their personal
> collection of Uzis.

Actually they are :-) Compulsory military service, and when you come out you
keep your rifle and are required to maintain your proficiency with it.

> > ISN't required in some countries to bear arms????
>
> Could you please give me one reference for that ?

Again, Switzerland by law and Israel by default, and a county in Georgia.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or
for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

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