Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Whitewing <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:57:53 -0500
<Insert Sr theme song here>

Can revolvers fire flecchette ammo? An inquiring newbie that makes to
many mistakes want to know.
Message no. 2
From: Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 20:38:48 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

>Can revolvers fire flecchette ammo?

Just about every wepon I can think of can fire flechette ammo. In
other words, yes.

>An inquiring newbie that makes to many mistakes want to know.

A helpful oldbie that makes too many mistakes has answered. :)

P E A C E !

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDQ+l+3VjeTHuzzXEQKToQCfZvWat/TQQPQoYVfPA0abLeTP8/IAoMoy
n24QBeMJQC/AFFEnyXTAlEl9
=Y9AI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Craig J Wilhelm Jr

Reality is nothing but a refuge for those who can't handle role-playing.

http://home.earthlink.net/~craigjwjr/

I-Chat Username: craigjwjr

-------------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
v3.12
GAT/$ d? s+:+ a-- C++ !U--- !P !L- !E-- W++ N++
o K- w++ O> !M-- !V PS+ PE+++ Y+ PGP++ t-
5+++ X-- R++ tv b++ DI-- D+ G e++ h* r+ y++**
--------------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------
Message no. 3
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 00:25:22 -0400
In a message dated 97-10-02 18:58:45 EDT, you write:

> Can revolvers fire flecchette ammo? An inquiring newbie that makes to
> many mistakes want to know.

Yes, the cost of the revolver will be increased however. This is due to
either special ammunition to carry the flechettes or changes in the barreling
of the revolver.
Message no. 4
From: "Mike (Leszek Karlik)" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:46:41 +0000
On 2 Oct 97, Craig J Wilhelm Jr disseminated foul capitalist
propaganda by writing:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> >Can revolvers fire flecchette ammo?
>
> Just about every wepon I can think of can fire flechette
> ammo. In
> other words, yes.

Ummm... Ever thought of an MP Laser?
<sheepish grin>

But yes, as a general rule almost all firearms can fire flechettes...
One of the exceptions is the Panther, and all other assault cannons,
but I guess some mad armourer COULD make a flechette ammo for an
assault cannon... The question is: why bother?


Mike (Leszek Karlik) - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
Do not bend, fold, staple or mutilate in any way this tagline.
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:15:35 +0100
Mike Bobroff said on 0:25/ 3 Oct 97...

> > Can revolvers fire flecchette ammo? An inquiring newbie that makes to
> > many mistakes want to know.
>
> Yes, the cost of the revolver will be increased however. This is due to
> either special ammunition to carry the flechettes or changes in the barreling
> of the revolver.

Note that only the ammo cost is included in the SR rules, so any extra
costs are house rules. Flechette ammo costs 100Y per 10 rounds, against
20Y per 10 rounds for regular ammo; there is no mention in any SR rulebook
I'm aware of that you need to adapt the gun to fire the ammo. Infact, the
only ammo I can think of that had such a provision were the Firepower(tm)
rounds from the first-edition Street Samurai Catalog.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zo buurman, ik hier?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:15:35 +0100
Whitewing said on 17:57/ 2 Oct 97...

> Can revolvers fire flecchette ammo?

Sure. Unless it's specifically forbidden in general rules or in the
description of the weapon in question, it's safe to assume any weapon can
fire any kind of ammo. (With the exception of assault cannon ammo; I
somehow don't think that fits into other weapon types :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zo buurman, ik hier?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 7
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:48:48 -0500
On Fri, 3 Oct 1997, Mike (Leszek Karlik) wrote:

> On 2 Oct 97, Craig J Wilhelm Jr disseminated foul capitalist
> propaganda by writing:
> > Just about every wepon I can think of can fire flechette
> > ammo. In
> Ummm... Ever thought of an MP Laser?
> <sheepish grin>

He did say "Just about" :)

> But yes, as a general rule almost all firearms can fire flechettes...
> One of the exceptions is the Panther, and all other assault cannons,
> but I guess some mad armourer COULD make a flechette ammo for an
> assault cannon... The question is: why bother?

Heck we have had flechette rounds up to 155mm caliber since the vietnam
war. Commonly called Behive rounds. The 155mm howitzer shell contains a
couple of thousand flechettes and can penetrate completely through a steel
helmet, the head inside, and out the other side at 100 yards.... It was
developed as a last ditch suport round when your getting over run, just
crank down the barrel and you got the worlds largest shotgun.

Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
tmprice@***********.com
Message no. 8
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:04:40 -0400
In a message dated 97-10-03 04:46:36 EDT, trrkt@*****.ONET.PL writes:

>
> But yes, as a general rule almost all firearms can fire flechettes...
> One of the exceptions is the Panther, and all other assault cannons,
> but I guess some mad armourer COULD make a flechette ammo for an
> assault cannon... The question is: why bother?
>
Oh GROSS!!! But that would look in a fictional arena, very cool. Great big
gun variation on a shotgun. LOTS of area of effect (bore being 3 or more
times the scale of a shotgun and all ;) with lots of gross side/collateral
damage. Yep, sounds like a goofy, disgusting idea. Gotta Have One....

-K
Message no. 9
From: Oliver McDonald <oliver@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:42:58 +0800
On Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:48:48 -0500, The Bookworm wrote:

>Heck we have had flechette rounds up to 155mm caliber since the vietnam
>war. Commonly called Behive rounds. The 155mm howitzer shell contains a
>couple of thousand flechettes and can penetrate completely through a steel
>helmet, the head inside, and out the other side at 100 yards.... It was
>developed as a last ditch suport round when your getting over run, just
>crank down the barrel and you got the worlds largest shotgun.

Actually, this round saw some limited use in WW2 also. Unlike a shotgun, these flechettes
have limited
armour piercing capabilities. An interesting alternative suggested by some US Army Wacko's
(Weapon
Research) is to mix White Phosperous in with the flechetes, this will add the burn damage
of WP, and will
practically guarantee that any soft-skin vehicles hit will explodes as their gas tanks
turn into swiss
cheese. I can not verify if they have ever constructed a WP-Beehive round, let alone
tested it. Keep in
mind that WP is banned by the Geneva convention.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://web2.spydernet.com

Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.

Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.
Message no. 10
From: Tod Weitzel and his Orchestra <xarph@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:48:36 -0700
>Heck we have had flechette rounds up to 155mm caliber since the vietnam
>war. Commonly called Behive rounds. The 155mm howitzer shell contains a
>couple of thousand flechettes and can penetrate completely through a steel
>helmet, the head inside, and out the other side at 100 yards.... It was
>developed as a last ditch suport round when your getting over run, just
>crank down the barrel and you got the worlds largest shotgun.

Shells have actually been used since the Civil War, although they used
buckshot instead of flechettes. It doesn't really matter what they used,
though; a wall of shot lobbed in your direction by a cannon can paste you
just as well.
But "flechette" sounds cooler.

-Lx?
--
Lord Xarph mhm 16x6
xarph@*******.net anti-meower
http://xarph.home.ml.org/ anti-hfw
Message no. 11
From: Logan Graves <logan1@*****.INTERCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:17:09 -0400
Tod Weitzel and his Orchestra wrote:
>
> >Heck we have had flechette rounds up to 155mm caliber since the vietnam
> >war. Commonly called Behive rounds. The 155mm howitzer shell contains a
> >couple of thousand flechettes and can penetrate completely through a steel
> >helmet, the head inside, and out the other side at 100 yards.... It was
> >developed as a last ditch suport round when your getting over run, just
> >crank down the barrel and you got the worlds largest shotgun.

Speaking o' which, need I remind anyone here that you can also get
flechette (& many other 'interesting' rounds) for your Remmington
Roomsweeper & for your over/under-barrel grenade launcher? I didn't
think so. Check:
http://www.intercom.net/user/logna1/engfun.htm for more ammo types!

> But "flechette" sounds cooler.

Not, bad for a funny French word. ;-)

<<I brek wind in your zhen-er-AL de-RECK-shun...you silly Ing-lish
pig-dogs!! ...>>

--Fenris
_______________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) Whadda ya mean there's a 3 magazine limit??!!
(>) --Wedge, mercenary
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 12:08:05 +0100
The Bookworm said on 8:48/ 3 Oct 97...

> Heck we have had flechette rounds up to 155mm caliber since the vietnam
> war. Commonly called Behive rounds. The 155mm howitzer shell contains a
> couple of thousand flechettes and can penetrate completely through a steel
> helmet, the head inside, and out the other side at 100 yards.... It was
> developed as a last ditch suport round when your getting over run, just
> crank down the barrel and you got the worlds largest shotgun.

Not quite the same thing, AFAIK. Although the name "Beehive round" isn't
always used for the same type of shell, I believe these rounds are set to
detonate at a certain distance (i.e. flight time) from the weapon and
explode there, showering the area in flechettes; you could set this for
point-blank range, of course. To turn a large-caliber weapon into a
shotgun you need a canister round, which is basically a shot shell for a
tank gun, and they're really bad for muzzle brakes (in Vietnam the muzzle
brakes on the M48A3's 90 mm gun lasted only 100 or so canister rounds).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zo buurman, ik hier?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 13
From: Jimpy <lowfyr@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:30:21 -0500
Tod Weitzel and his Orchestra wrote:
> <snip stuff about canister shot and beehive rounds>

Shells have actually been used since the Civil War, although they used
> buckshot instead of flechettes.

Something even more devastating than canister and grape shot (IMHO) is
chain shot. Used extensively in the American Civil War and presumabely
other wars prior, it consisted of two balls the caliber of the gun with
a length of chain varying from 5-10 feet.

They would begin to revolve around each other, spinning and tearing
everything in their path to peices. I have seen them fired, and while
they are nothing compared to modern rounds, whew...I'd hate to get hit
by them ;)

A practical variation on this that I use for SR is on riot control
vehicles. They have a crowd net gun that is essentially "soft" chain
shot.

Jim
Message no. 14
From: "Mike (Leszek Karlik)" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 20:40:28 +0000
On 4 Oct 97, Jimpy disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

> Tod Weitzel and his Orchestra wrote:
> > <snip stuff about canister shot and beehive rounds>
>
> Something even more devastating than canister and grape shot (IMHO)
> is chain shot. Used extensively in the American Civil War and
> presumabely other wars prior, it consisted of two balls the caliber
> of the gun with a length of chain varying from 5-10 feet.

Chain shot was used on sea, to destroy the sails and lines of enemy
ships (there's a name to it, but I'm to lazy to get up and look it up
in the Pl-Eng dictionary). It wouldn't be that effective against
infantry, and would be a real bitch to fire out from non-smooth-bore
cannons.
(Hmmm.. OTOH, you could use two Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot
"bullets" with a monowire between them (shot out in one sabot)....
Uhh. Nasty.)


Mike (Leszek Karlik) - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
Visit Russia before Russia visits you.
Message no. 15
From: Andrew Huang <adh8@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 20:48:31 -0400
Just to add to this marvelous discussion thread of indecently large bore
anti-personnel weapons.
It is interesting to note that the 155 mm recoiless rifle (or howitzer as
we're calling them) was actually fairly ineffective during the Vietnam war
until the advent of these nasty beehive shells. Another interesting lesson
on the changes this and other guerilla conflicts had on modern warfare.
Another interesting development from the Vietnam War was the development
of buckshot rounds for the M-79 Grenade Launcher (for those unschooled in
infantry support weapons, its that big break-open shotgun looking thing
that Arnie was using in T2 to blow up cars (don't confuse it with the
twirling shotgun)). In effect, the M-79, which already looked like a big
combat shotgun, was turned into a big combat shotgun. Instead of a grenade
flying out, a 40 mm shell that pushed buckshot out the front was used.
I assume you can do the same thing with underbarrel grenade launchers etc.
The nasty thought goes to the use of MGL's. An even nastier thought goes
the the use of automatic grenade launchers (they do exist, nasty and heavy
as hell).
The question here is why you'd want to do this at all. Most grenade
launchers are short barreled and thus the spread is very wide. Precision is
nil; point, fire, and pray that no friendlies are in the way. I'd trust a
Claymore mine to do the same trick and with more style.
Bottom line: Fletchette rounds for revolvers; yes. I'm sure there are all
sorts of technical issues, but since when did SR ever deal with technical
issues? I mean, the guns vvvverrry rarely jam or misfire (I've yet to see
that rule of one thing pop up), much much more reliable than they are in
real life.

Andrew

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Douglas Huang adh8@*******.edu

SiteSmiths Recent work: http://www.artbyhenri.com
Phoenix Army Site: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/mal22/
My LA Journal Site: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/adh8/
Message no. 16
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 20:54:41 -0500
You wrote:
> sorts of technical issues, but since when did SR ever deal with technical
> issues? I mean, the guns vvvverrry rarely jam or misfire (I've yet to see
> that rule of one thing pop up), much much more reliable than they are in
> real life.

Well... given that they've not advanced much in weapon types by 2050, we're
still dealing with slug-throwers after all, I'd say you're looking at
engineering improvements and better machining than we can do today, maybe even
just higher quality control for ammunition and parts. Think how far
machineguns have come since first introduced as far as firing-to-jamming ratio,
and extend that to 2050. :) Given that they haven't made enough progress in
gauss or energy-based weapons, their attention has turned to improving
slug-throwers instead.

losthalo
Message no. 17
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 01:09:02 -0500
On Sat, 4 Oct 1997, Gurth wrote:

> Not quite the same thing, AFAIK. Although the name "Beehive round" isn't
> always used for the same type of shell, I believe these rounds are set to
> detonate at a certain distance (i.e. flight time) from the weapon and
> explode there, showering the area in flechettes; you could set this for
> point-blank range, of course.

I thiought that the timed fuse version came later but i could be wrong.
and they dont realy explode as much as have a small charge split the
cassing and let the flechettes expand into a larger patern for a bigger
beaten zone.

> To turn a large-caliber weapon into a
> shotgun you need a canister round, which is basically a shot shell for a
> tank gun, and they're really bad for muzzle brakes (in Vietnam the muzzle
> brakes on the M48A3's 90 mm gun lasted only 100 or so canister rounds).

And you have to have a smooth bore to since the spin put on by rifling
tends to make shot cone spread out almost perpendicular to the muzzle. On
the muzzle brakes well the discarding sabots do an even worse job to
brakes which is why you dont see them on newer MBTs.

For those really interested in the development of Artilery and Tank guns
should talk to Major Wesley at GenCon. For at least the past 4 years he
has been part of the War College series of lectures and is very
knowledgable.


Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
tmprice@***********.com
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 11:09:51 +0100
Andrew Huang said on 20:48/ 4 Oct 97...

> It is interesting to note that the 155 mm recoiless rifle (or howitzer as
> we're calling them)

I don't quite get the reference here, if there is one... I've yet to see a
recoilless 155 mm artillery piece.

> Another interesting development from the Vietnam War was the development
> of buckshot rounds for the M-79 Grenade Launcher (for those unschooled in
> infantry support weapons, its that big break-open shotgun looking thing
> that Arnie was using in T2 to blow up cars (don't confuse it with the
> twirling shotgun)).

To make it clear, it's the one he finds in the weapon dump in the desert,
not the one he uses to fire tear gas grenades into the cops later on.

> In effect, the M-79, which already looked like a big combat shotgun, was
> turned into a big combat shotgun. Instead of a grenade flying out, a 40
> mm shell that pushed buckshot out the front was used.
> I assume you can do the same thing with underbarrel grenade
> launchers etc. The nasty thought goes to the use of MGL's.

If you want a buckshot grenade for SR, there are stats in one of the
Plastic Warriors books, the Chromebook Conversions I think. Here we are,
Anti-Personnel Flechette, page 46 of Chromebook 1.

> An even nastier thought goes the the use of automatic grenade launchers
> (they do exist, nasty and heavy as hell).

RL auto-GLs can't fire these things at fully-automatic, unless you're
talking about "automatic" weapons like the Mark 18 grenade launcher, which
had a hand crank to operate its action much like 19th century machineguns.
Load it into a Mark 19, or another 40x53 mm launcher, and the weapon fires
one shot and nothing more.

In SR though, all grenade launchers use the same ammo, so I wouldn't want
to be caught in front of an automatic GL firing buckshot ammo...

> The question here is why you'd want to do this at all.

A few that come to mind are urban combat, guarding prisoners, engaging
targets below the arming range of a normal grenade, shooting targets on
the other side of bushes...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zo buurman, ik hier?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 19
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 17:11:08 +0100
In article <34366F1D.2D8B@***********.com>, Jimpy
<lowfyr@***********.COM> writes
>Tod Weitzel and his Orchestra wrote:
>> <snip stuff about canister shot and beehive rounds>
>
> Shells have actually been used since the Civil War, although they used
>> buckshot instead of flechettes.
>
>Something even more devastating than canister and grape shot (IMHO) is
>chain shot. Used extensively in the American Civil War and presumabely
>other wars prior, it consisted of two balls the caliber of the gun with
>a length of chain varying from 5-10 feet.

Originally a naval invention for destroying ships' rigging. Canister or
grape were preferred for antipersonnel fire.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 20
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 17:15:43 +0100
In article <SHADOWRN%97100319421810@********.ITRIBE.NET>, Oliver
McDonald <oliver@*********.COM> writes
>Keep in
>mind that WP is banned by the Geneva convention.

Uh... no, it isn't. We trained with WP grenades and with WP mortar and
artillery rounds. They're not very nice, but they aren't banned.

And we never wasted time on that "we're not burning men, just their
clothing and equipment" nonsense.


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 21
From: Andrew Huang <adh8@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 00:39:47 -0400
At 11:09 AM 10/5/97 +0100, Gurth wrote:

>I don't quite get the reference here, if there is one... I've yet to see a
>recoilless 155 mm artillery piece.

Ah dear Gurth, my apologies you are right there are no recoilless 155 mm
artillery pieces. The largest recoilless gun I can find is the 120mm
British L6 WOMBAT.

>To make it clear, it's the one he finds in the weapon dump in the desert,
>not the one he uses to fire tear gas grenades into the cops later on.

Right.. That one he takes from the cops and is a big revolving drum tear
gas launcher.

>If you want a buckshot grenade for SR, there are stats in one of the
>Plastic Warriors books, the Chromebook Conversions I think. Here we are,
>Anti-Personnel Flechette, page 46 of Chromebook 1.

Kinky. >:)

>> An even nastier thought goes the the use of automatic grenade launchers
>> (they do exist, nasty and heavy as hell).
>
>RL auto-GLs can't fire these things at fully-automatic, unless you're
>talking about "automatic" weapons like the Mark 18 grenade launcher, which
>had a hand crank to operate its action much like 19th century machineguns.
>Load it into a Mark 19, or another 40x53 mm launcher, and the weapon fires
>one shot and nothing more.

Odd, to my knowledge the Mk 19 fires belt-fed grenades at up to 375 RPM.
Maybe it's just my definition of automatic.

>In SR though, all grenade launchers use the same ammo, so I wouldn't want
>to be caught in front of an automatic GL firing buckshot ammo...

Yeah, but you just know that some chrome freak is gonna put it on a Sentry
Gun platform, put that on an articulated arm and run around with this
devastating anti-personnel weapon permanently bolted to his body.

>A few that come to mind are urban combat, guarding prisoners, engaging
>targets below the arming range of a normal grenade, shooting targets on
>the other side of bushes...

... not to mention providing stuffy vehicles with natural air
conditioning, indiscriminately firing on large civilian groups, causing FOD
to aircraft/LAVs, bringing down flights of insects/birds/bats, inpromptu
chafe against those nasty missiles, turning tomato fields into tomato
paste, and covering corridors. Gosh, now that you mention it, Gurth, the
uses seem endless. :) Order now kids, this miracle product is not available
in stores.

Andrew

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
/\ N D R E W ]) O U G L A S ]-| U A N G............. adh8@*******.edu

p h o e n i x a r m y....... http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/mal22/
1 2 0 d a y s i n L A... http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/adh8/


"When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are
considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism,
materialism, and militarism are incapable of being conquered."
-Martin Luther King Jr.
Message no. 22
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:14:25 +0100
Andrew Huang said on 0:39/ 6 Oct 97...

> Ah dear Gurth, my apologies you are right there are no recoilless 155 mm
> artillery pieces. The largest recoilless gun I can find is the 120mm
> British L6 WOMBAT.

And that's been withdrawn from service, AFAIK.

> >Load it into a Mark 19, or another 40x53 mm launcher, and the weapon fires
> >one shot and nothing more.
>
> Odd, to my knowledge the Mk 19 fires belt-fed grenades at up to 375 RPM.
> Maybe it's just my definition of automatic.

No, you're right about the Mark 19 being fully-automatic, but it needs
40x53 mm grenades for that. 40x46 mm grenades (those fired by the M79,
M203, etc.) don't give enough pressure to operate the action, so the
weapon stops after firing one shot. After that you have to manually work
the action to reload the weapon, which is a rather lengthy process in a Mk
19 I believe.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Forgetting anything as exciting as this would be an
exercise in futility.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 23
From: Jim Riegel <riegelja@*****.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 16:10:28 -0300
-
>No, you're right about the Mark 19 being fully-automatic, but it needs
>40x53 mm grenades for that. 40x46 mm grenades (those fired by the M79,
>M203, etc.) don't give enough pressure to operate the action, so the
>weapon stops after firing one shot. After that you have to manually work
>the action to reload the weapon, which is a rather lengthy process in a Mk
>19 I believe.
>

Manually working it isn't neccasarily a long process.... IIRC it's just pull
back the slide and you're set... However the thing has one hell of a draw
strength for a gun. I once watched some SP's doing a weapons demo (no, not
live fire) and they let a 14 year old kid try to cock it. He couldn't pull
it back...so they dismounted it and put the butt end on the ground. The kid
puts a hand on each side (dual ?charging, cocking? levers) and starts to
jump up and down...doesn't cock the weapon...Really amusing to watch...other
problem with the Mk 19 is a minimum range....don't know if that is a
recommended safety issue or if the rounds simply will not arm closer than
that by a mechanical design (like torps on subs)....

.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-
._

Warning: Be on the look out for a high speed free spirit. It's preferred
form is a small Native American boy.
Known Aliases: Little Running Joke

Welcome to the Shadows of Washington, DCLXVI Chummer! We got more
demoncrats
and Sinators than you can shake a stun baton at. --Anonymous

----- BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK -----
version:3.1
GAT d@ S++:+ a-- c++++(++$) US>++ P+ L E- W+(--) N+ o-- K- w(--) O- M-- V
PS+ PE Y+ PGP t(+) 5+++ X+ R++ tv+ b+++ DI++++ D+ G+ e>++ h---- r+++
y++++*
------ END GEEK CODE BLOCK ------
Message no. 24
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:25:42 -0500
On Mon, 6 Oct 1997, Jim Riegel wrote:

> other
> problem with the Mk 19 is a minimum range....don't know if that is a
> recommended safety issue or if the rounds simply will not arm closer than
> that by a mechanical design (like torps on subs)....

Its a mechanical device in the rounds, the round has to revolve a certain
number of times before its armed to explode. M-79/M-203 have the same
thing. Its to keep you from blowing yourself up if you flinch and hit
that tree instead of aiming past it. All IIRC of course:)

Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
tmprice@***********.com
Message no. 25
From: Andrew Huang <adh8@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 18:22:58 -0400
>No, you're right about the Mark 19 being fully-automatic, but it needs
>40x53 mm grenades for that. 40x46 mm grenades (those fired by the M79,
>M203, etc.) don't give enough pressure to operate the action, so the
>weapon stops after firing one shot. After that you have to manually work
>the action to reload the weapon, which is a rather lengthy process in a Mk
>19 I believe.

Righto.. I was thinking of the mayhem incurred if an automatic grenade
launcher like the Mark 19 fired 40x53 mm buckshot rounds.

Andrew

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
/\ N D R E W ]) O U G L A S ]-| U A N G............. adh8@*******.edu

p h o e n i x a r m y....... http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/mal22/
1 2 0 d a y s i n L A... http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/adh8/


"When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are
considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism,
materialism, and militarism are incapable of being conquered."
-Martin Luther King Jr.
Message no. 26
From: Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 16:27:53 -0600
Quoth Andrew Huang:
>
> >No, you're right about the Mark 19 being fully-automatic, but it needs
> >40x53 mm grenades for that. 40x46 mm grenades (those fired by the M79,
> >M203, etc.) don't give enough pressure to operate the action, so the
> >weapon stops after firing one shot. After that you have to manually work
> >the action to reload the weapon, which is a rather lengthy process in a Mk
> >19 I believe.
>
> Righto.. I was thinking of the mayhem incurred if an automatic grenade
> launcher like the Mark 19 fired 40x53 mm buckshot rounds.

It would give a new meaning to the phrase "chunky salsa", that's for sure...

--
Mike Loseke | On the first day,
mike@*******.com | Pink Floyd created God...
Message no. 27
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:45:41 +0100
Mike Loseke said on 16:27/ 6 Oct 97...

> > Righto.. I was thinking of the mayhem incurred if an automatic grenade
> > launcher like the Mark 19 fired 40x53 mm buckshot rounds.
>
> It would give a new meaning to the phrase "chunky salsa", that's for
sure...

This just gave me another thought... Hand-reloaded 40 mm grenades. Take
the projectile out of a low-pressure buckshot round and put it into the
case of a high-pressure grenade from which you just removed the
projectile. Of course, finding a press capable of taking these rounds
might be a bit of a problem.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The stupid is always possible.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 28
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:56:00 GMT
on 06.10.97 adh8@*******.EDU wrote:

a> >> An even nastier thought goes the the use of automatic grenade launchers
a> >> (they do exist, nasty and heavy as hell).
a> >
a> >RL auto-GLs can't fire these things at fully-automatic, unless you're
a> >talking about "automatic" weapons like the Mark 18 grenade launcher,
which
a> >had a hand crank to operate its action much like 19th century machineguns.
a> >Load it into a Mark 19, or another 40x53 mm launcher, and the weapon fires
a> >one shot and nothing more.
a>
a> Odd, to my knowledge the Mk 19 fires belt-fed grenades at up to 375
a> RPM. Maybe it's just my definition of automatic.

Just checked it (I have some of these nice Marines Fact-Files on HD :)).
The MK19 Mod.3 fires 40mm grenades (and different typed of these) at 325-
375 spm at cyclic.

[Snip!]
Your footer's a bit long....



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 29
From: Andrew Huang <adh8@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:41:56 -0400
At 02:56 PM 10/8/97 GMT, Tobias Berghoff wrote:
>Your footer's a bit long....
>
>
>
>Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.
>
>-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
>GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
>UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
>w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
>t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
>e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
>------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------

Actually, it's only two lines longer than yours.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
/\ N D R E W ]) O U G L A S ]-| U A N G............. adh8@*******.edu

p h o e n i x a r m y....... http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/mal22/
1 2 0 d a y s i n L A... http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/adh8/


"When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are
considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism,
materialism, and militarism are incapable of being conquered."
-Martin Luther King Jr.
Message no. 30
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:03:04 +0100
And verily, did Andrew Huang hastily scribble thusly...
|
|At 02:56 PM 10/8/97 GMT, Tobias Berghoff wrote:
|>Your footer's a bit long....

| Actually, it's only two lines longer than yours.

Yessss....
But you're using the full width, whereas he's using about half...
(Half the number of characters in other words...)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 31
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:10:56 +0000
On 6 Oct 97 at 15:25, The Bookworm wrote:

> On Mon, 6 Oct 1997, Jim Riegel wrote:
>
> > other
> > problem with the Mk 19 is a minimum range....don't know if that is a
> > recommended safety issue or if the rounds simply will not arm closer than
> > that by a mechanical design (like torps on subs)....
>
> Its a mechanical device in the rounds, the round has to revolve a
> certain number of times before its armed to explode. M-79/M-203 have
> the same thing. Its to keep you from blowing yourself up if you
> flinch and hit that tree instead of aiming past it. All IIRC of
> course:)

It is a safety feature, and the rule of thumb distance is about 45-47
feet. At one time the U.S. Army considered armming MP Hummers with
the Mk 19. The idea was that they would be good in conter ambus
situations, untill it was pointed out that they could not ingage a
near ambush. Back to the drawing board.


> Thomas Price
> aka The Bookworm
> thomas.m.price@*******.edu
> tmprice@***********.com
>


David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org
******************************************************
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve niether liberty or
safety.
Ben Franklin
Message no. 32
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:10:55 +0000
On 7 Oct 97 at 12:45, Gurth wrote:

> This just gave me another thought... Hand-reloaded 40 mm grenades.
> Take the projectile out of a low-pressure buckshot round and put it
> into the case of a high-pressure grenade from which you just removed
> the projectile. Of course, finding a press capable of taking these
> rounds might be a bit of a problem.
>

Interesting idea, but it is not the lack of a press that would cause
the problem. The 40mm grenade is a high low pressure cartridge. That
is the firing pin hits the primer that sets of a small propellent
charge in a small chamber at the base of the case, Because this
chamber is small, a small amont of propellent can generate a
extremely high pressure. At a certain level the presure ruptures an
inter seal and the pressure is suddenly vented into the large space
behind the projectile. The presurized gas expands pushing the
projectile up the barrel with a smooth steady push..

The training practice rounds (inert projectile, with a marker smoke
and the same ballistics as the real grenades) use a .38 caliber blank
for propellant.

The buckshot and the flechette rounds are put togeather like a large
shotgun shell. with a larger propellent charge.

So your idea is a bit backward as you are taking the projectiles from
the more powerful cartridge (in terms of propellent) and putting it
on the weaker one.





David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org
******************************************************
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve niether liberty or
safety.
Ben Franklin
Message no. 33
From: Hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:54:22 -0700
> > Its a mechanical device in the rounds, the round has to revolve a
> > certain number of times before its armed to explode. M-79/M-203 have
> > the same thing. Its to keep you from blowing yourself up if you
> > flinch and hit that tree instead of aiming past it. All IIRC of
> > course:)
>
> It is a safety feature, and the rule of thumb distance is about 45-47
> feet. At one time the U.S. Army considered armming MP Hummers with
> the Mk 19. The idea was that they would be good in conter ambus
> situations, untill it was pointed out that they could not ingage a
> near ambush. Back to the drawing board.


Actually, they -are- still be used by MP's. You have 3 squads, and one is
designated the
"Heavy Weapons" squad. 2 M2 .50cals and 1 Mk19.

They are more used in Rear Area Security and Hunter/Killer teams though.

MoonShadow
hernandez@********.com
ICQ 3220365

May the god, goddess, or deity of your choice bless,
curse, or completely ignore you, as per your wishes
Message no. 34
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:21:00 GMT
on 09.10.97 adh8@*******.EDU wrote:

a> Actually, it's only two lines longer than yours.

Lines != size. Remember?

(I didn't want to offend you or anything, O.K.? Just told you...)

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 35
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:59:19 -0500
On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, David Hinkley wrote:

> On 7 Oct 97 at 12:45, Gurth wrote:
> Interesting idea, but it is not the lack of a press that would cause
> the problem. The 40mm grenade is a high low pressure cartridge. That
> is the firing pin hits the primer that sets of a small propellent
> charge in a small chamber at the base of the case, Because this
> chamber is small, a small amont of propellent can generate a
> extremely high pressure. At a certain level the presure ruptures an
> inter seal and the pressure is suddenly vented into the large space
> behind the projectile. The presurized gas expands pushing the
> projectile up the barrel with a smooth steady push..
> The buckshot and the flechette rounds are put togeather like a large
> shotgun shell. with a larger propellent charge.
> So your idea is a bit backward as you are taking the projectiles from
> the more powerful cartridge (in terms of propellent) and putting it
> on the weaker one.

AHH but the thing that started this was that there are 2 types of 40mm
granades! Lower power ones for the m-79/203 and higher power ones for the
m-19. Now while i agree that the buckshot round might have a slightly
higher pressure than other m-79/203 rounds it is suposedly still too low
of a pressure to cycle the m-19. While the reloaded round may not have a
higher pressure than the other m-19 rounds it should be enough to A)cycle
the m-19 and b) shoot the buckshot out fast enough to still be nasty. All
the sudden those MP hummers with the m-19 can do counter ambuse duty
again. 300 buckshot rounds a minute should stop most ambushes:)


Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
tmprice@***********.com
Message no. 36
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:37:05 +0100
David Hinkley said on 1:10/10 Oct 97...

> At one time the U.S. Army considered armming MP Hummers with the Mk 19.
> The idea was that they would be good in conter ambus situations, untill
> it was pointed out that they could not ingage a near ambush. Back to the
> drawing board.

I've seen a number of photos of HMMWVs with Mk 19s on the roof weapon
mount; however, these all belonged to the USMC AFAIK.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The stupid is always possible.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 37
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 22:47:34 -0400
On Saturday, October 11, 1997 14:37, Gurth[SMTP:gurth@******.NL] wrote:
> David Hinkley said on 1:10/10 Oct 97...
>
> > At one time the U.S. Army considered armming MP Hummers with the Mk 19.
> > The idea was that they would be good in conter ambus situations, untill
> > it was pointed out that they could not ingage a near ambush. Back to
the
> > drawing board.
>
> I've seen a number of photos of HMMWVs with Mk 19s on the roof weapon
> mount; however, these all belonged to the USMC AFAIK.

I don't know how accurate this is, but in Steel Panthers II (A modern armor
simulation) the US Army forces have access to a HMMWV mounting a Mk 19


--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
Message no. 38
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: flecchettes and revolvers
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:10:12 +0100
Jonathan Hurley said on 22:47/13 Oct 97...

> > I've seen a number of photos of HMMWVs with Mk 19s on the roof weapon
> > mount; however, these all belonged to the USMC AFAIK.
>
> I don't know how accurate this is, but in Steel Panthers II (A modern armor
> simulation) the US Army forces have access to a HMMWV mounting a Mk 19

Naturally, as they will fit onto the same pintle mount as an M2 HB
machinegun. And since writing the double-quoted text, I've also seen
pictures of a US Army Military Police HMMWV with a Mk 19 in Saudi Arabia.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Artificial people? You mean ... actors?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about flecchettes and revolvers, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!