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Message no. 1
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Flechette and Silencers
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 16:07:15 -0500 (EST)
On Fri, 12 Mar 1999 GMPax@***.com wrote:

> I concede this may have been a HR that made SO much common sense, I have
> fudged it in mymemory into the realm of the official. <g>

I think you're quoting a house rule, because so far I've been
unable to find any mention that flechette ammunition and
silncers/suppressors are incompatible in the SR2 or SR3 rulebook.

> Still, think for a moment. Those silencers use a tubular brush
> arrangement to contain the gasses and flash of a gunshot, right?

Um, that's only one way to do it, and probably the least
efficient of them. Most silencers work by porting the barrel, which
allows the expanding gas to move into a chamber. Within that chamber is
usually some sort of batting material to "absorb" the shock of the
expanding gas. You can also do it with spring-and-washer arrangements.
This allows the expanding gas somewhere to go while the bullet is still
travelling down the barrel. By the time the bullet leaves the muzzle of
the gun (thus breaking the barrel seal), the pressure behind the bullet
has dropped drastically, meaning that there's less of a "bang." If the
gas expansion rate is slowed below super-sonic speeds, all you hear is a
pop, and the slower the gas becomes, the less sound the weapon makes when
fired. Note also that by bleeding off some of the expansion energy, the
bullet is not being accelerated as quickly as it otherwise would. This is
the cause for the decreased muzzle velocities of rounds fired from weapons
fitted with silencers versus those fired from weapons without.
The reason that silencers have associated lifetimes is because the
batting material tends to become charred, compressed, and generally
destroyed to the point where it no longer absorbs the gas expansion
energy. For instance, those green scrubby pads (which work pretty well as
silencer innards) tend to burn up pretty quickly. Even metal meshes like
steel wool or screen material are flammable. Even if the extreme heat
doesn't destroy the batting material, it can still get "squished" over
time and not absorb as much energy.
Suppressors work differently, usually by allowing the gas to
expand into specially formed chambers that do not have any kind of
compressive material in them, but are designed to use their shape to
induce extreme turbulence within them. This turbulence wastes scads of
expansion energy, and achieves the same general overall effect.
However, any ammunition which does not "seal" in the barrel as it
is fired gains no benefit from a silencer. This is why shotguns firing
shot ammunition cannot be silenced, but shotguns firing slugs can. The
shot ammunition begins dispersing even as it travels down the barrel,
allowing the gas to escape past it and around it.
If flechette ammunition truly is a cluster of sharp needles, then
perhaps it cannot be silenced. If it's a single dart, or a cluster of
darts uncased in a shoe that *does* seal the barrel, then there's no
reason why a silencer wouldn't work with it. You can run it either way,
but the standard SR2/SR3 rules assume that it's compatible.

Marc
Message no. 2
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Flechette and Silencers
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 21:10:14 EST
In a message dated 3/13/99 4:09:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, renouf@*****
int.com writes:

> If flechette ammunition truly is a cluster of sharp needles, then
> perhaps it cannot be silenced. If it's a single dart, or a cluster of
> darts uncased in a shoe that *does* seal the barrel, then there's no
> reason why a silencer wouldn't work with it. You can run it either way,
> but the standard SR2/SR3 rules assume that it's compatible.
>
> Marc

Cool, and thanks muchly for the enlightenment as to the function and inner
workings of silencers; I hadn't understood the things before now.

I would have to say, if a shoe (or "cup" etc) carrying the FL cluster down the
barrel is enough to let a silencer work, then such measures should work for
shotguns, too; some rounds have the shot cluster in a plastic cup, IIRC, which
is cut and opened / seperated from the shot cluster only at the end of the
barrel. AFAI can see, this should enable silenced non-slug ammunition to
function from a shotgun. :-) After all, if FL rounds can, Shot rounds should
be able to, also. :-)

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 3
From: Veskrashen veskrashen@*******.com
Subject: Flechette and Silencers
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:41:03 -0600
GMPax@***.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 3/13/99 4:09:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, renouf@*****
> int.com writes:
>
> > If flechette ammunition truly is a cluster of sharp needles, then
> > perhaps it cannot be silenced. If it's a single dart, or a cluster of
> > darts uncased in a shoe that *does* seal the barrel, then there's no
> > reason why a silencer wouldn't work with it. You can run it either way,
> > but the standard SR2/SR3 rules assume that it's compatible.
> >
> > Marc
>
> Cool, and thanks muchly for the enlightenment as to the function and inner
> workings of silencers; I hadn't understood the things before now.
>
> I would have to say, if a shoe (or "cup" etc) carrying the FL cluster down
the
> barrel is enough to let a silencer work, then such measures should work for
> shotguns, too; some rounds have the shot cluster in a plastic cup, IIRC, which
> is cut and opened / seperated from the shot cluster only at the end of the
> barrel. AFAI can see, this should enable silenced non-slug ammunition to
> function from a shotgun. :-)

The problem is that with both the silencers described, the projectile
is slowed by buffers. Unfortunately, i think that the space between
the buffers would be enough for the petals of the shot cup to open up
enough to catch on the next on, creating a dangerous blockage and
probably ruining the silencer. Not to mention causing no damamge to
the target.

-Veskrashen
Message no. 4
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Flechette and Silencers
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:17:08 EST
In a message dated 3/13/99 9:39:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
veskrashen@*******.com writes:

> The problem is that with both the silencers described, the projectile
> is slowed by buffers. Unfortunately, i think that the space between
> the buffers would be enough for the petals of the shot cup to open up
> enough to catch on the next on, creating a dangerous blockage and
> probably ruining the silencer. Not to mention causing no damamge to
> the target.
>
> -Veskrashen

Which was my entire presumption when stating, FL rounds cannot be fired
silenced (with the notable exception of the Viper, ofc).

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 5
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Flechette and Silencers
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:52:32 +0000
In article <c87207aa.36eb1a86@***.com>, GMPax@***.com writes
>I would have to say, if a shoe (or "cup" etc) carrying the FL cluster down
the
>barrel is enough to let a silencer work, then such measures should work for
>shotguns, too; some rounds have the shot cluster in a plastic cup, IIRC, which
>is cut and opened / seperated from the shot cluster only at the end of the
>barrel.

For the parallel to be exact, flechette rounds would begin to spread
from the muzzle, and would need to use shotgun rounds (except you
couldn't change choke setting). Flechette is written up as something
similar to Glaser or Mag-Safe, breaking up on impact with the target
rather than at the muzzle.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 6
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Flechette and Silencers
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:02:08 -0500 (EST)
On Sat, 13 Mar 1999, Veskrashen wrote:

> The problem is that with both the silencers described, the projectile
> is slowed by buffers. Unfortunately, i think that the space between
> the buffers would be enough for the petals of the shot cup to open up
> enough to catch on the next on, creating a dangerous blockage and
> probably ruining the silencer. Not to mention causing no damamge to
> the target.

No, there aren't any obstructions in the barrel,just small holes
to allow the gas to travel through. These aren't going to be big enough
to result in any kind of barrel blockage if you use a properly designed
shot cup.

Marc

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