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Message no. 1
From: Christopher Bellovary <bellovar@***.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Flechettes
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 11:55:50 CDT
> The ballistic rating of armor is, I assume, based off of the concept of modern
> ballistic armor, meaning that it is a high-strength weave of material that
> spreads the energy of the round around a larger area. Impaling weapons
> (needles,lasers, flechettes) will go right through the weave because they are
> so thin.
>
> The point is (literally!) that thin, high velocity projectiles will poke
> throughthe weave like needles through a knit sweater, while normal bullets
> splat against it and fail to penetrate, like a pencil or dowel being pressed
> against the sweater.
>
> J Roberson


You must be unaware of the current rules regarding flechette
ammunition. Currently, you use Twice the impact rating, and not simply
a factor of one. (The reason being that impact armor is better at slowing
the low mass of the flechette and entrapping it before it hit the skin.)

Anyway - just a quick post to point out the significant difference.

-- CrossFire --
Message no. 2
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Flechette's
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:08:48 BST
They don't do the full damage against armoured targets, I checked it, it
goes something like :

Flechettes increase damage level by one against _unarmoured_ targets.


They're drek for everything but called head shots against someone without
a helmet/orthskin/dermal, etc. Then they're excellent.

Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)
Message no. 3
From: U-Gene <C14101@*******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Flechette's
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 09:13:27 EDT
P Ward writes:
>Flechettes increase damage level by one against _unarmored_ targets.
>
>They're drek for everything but called head shots against someone without
>helmet/orthoskin/dermal, ect. Then they're excellent.

They can also hit multiple targets :) Or is that just shotguns :(
Also I would say Orthoskin doesn't count (just hard skin, sort of), although
you do get to double its impact value. I might not count dermal because I
wouldn't think they would put dermal plates on someone's face. (THAT would
look Horrible!) But, none of my players have dermal (not compatible with
orthoskin) so for me it dosn't matter. Or at least not yet.

Well, I blathered on about that enough I think :)

Bob: "Stop hitting me!"
Havoc: "It's hard getting your attention with all that snake skin."
Bob: "???"

// U-Gene -- Best Defense against bullets, don't be there.
Message no. 4
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Flechette's
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:30:04 BST
U-Gene asked :-
> They can also hit multiple targets :) Or is that just shotguns :(

The ones they issued for Vietnam Shotguns did, they were little
fin-stabilised shots that spead out some, I wouldn't bet one
there being much spread on a pistol version. OTOH, I have
special cartridges of shotgun flechettes that spread out
like buckshot (though they have exactly the same stats, the
fin-stabilised flechettes look cooler when they hit something
solid.

About dermal not being on your face, I tried to call that
with one of my players, and he showed me the page where it
says the dermal plates are all over, mind you, he now looks
like an orc (he's human BTW), what with all those lumpy growths
under the skin.


Ortho gives armour, Dermal doesn';t, if armour stops it, why
shouldn't dermal, maybe I should implement that rule, and
start the player migration back to dermal plates again ;-).
That'll start to deal with excessive armou values again.

<grin>

Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)
Message no. 5
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Flechette's
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 01:57:12 +1000
P Ward writes:

> Flechettes increase damage level by one against _unarmoured_ targets.

Hey, you're right. When I re-read the section to check it, I managed to miss
that entirely.

--------------
U-Gene writes:

> They can also hit multiple targets :) Or is that just shotguns :(

That's just shotguns.

> Also I would say Orthoskin doesn't count (just hard skin, sort of), although
> you do get to double its impact value.

Well, as Phill Ward said, Orthoskin (and Bone Lacing) give an armour rating,
so therefore they would fall under the "armoured targets" bit of the
flechette rules, and also give the Damage Catageory reduction.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 6
From: Mark Kalvin <Sahtori@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Flechette's
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 15:02:10 -0400
Recently, P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK (P Ward) wrote the following:

> They don't do the full damage against armoured targets, I checked it, it
> goes something like :

a little bit deleted...

> They're drek for everything but called head shots against someone
> without a helmet/orthskin/dermal, etc. Then they're excellent.
>
> Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)

This is a fascinating contrast with the real world. Considering that body
armor made of aramid fiber works by dissipating the energy of a bullet's
impact over the surface of it's weave, one would think that flechettes would
be only marginally less effective against it if less effective at all. We're
talking about steel needles here.

There are stories about "cop-killer bullets" (conical copper, armor-piercing
projectiles) that are supposed to punch right through it without much
difficulty---the gun magazine I read gave a detailed procedure for making
them. I've also read that, without hard plates, aramid-fiber armor is
supposed to offer almost no protection against a good, sharp knife.

Does anyone else out there think that this game concept requires some
rethinking?

Mark <Sahtori@***.com>

=================================================================
From a conversation with
Dr. Thomas Thornton
Hunter College, 1984

"....No, I think we can agree that there are actually three great themes
then: Love, Death, *and* Power"
=================================================================

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Message no. 7
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Flechette's
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 15:03:09 +1000
Mark Kalvin writes:

> [Wokko flechette rules]
>
> Does anyone else out there think that this game concept requires some
> rethinking?

No, you remember the "layering armour" debate a couple of weeks ago? Well,
Quicksilver gave quite a few extensive posts on the topic of armour, and
such things. Now, he decided (and convinced me) that an armour jacket for
example, contains both kevlar weave and rigid plates. The rigid plates give
it the higher Impact value. Now, wouldn't these more rigid, solid plates
stop flechettes more effectively? And when we look at the rules, we see that
flechettes use either 2xImpact, or Ballistic, which ever is higher. So if
your armour is lacking rigid plates, and is only kevlar weave (ie has a
decent Ballistic but a poor Impact rating, like FFBA), then you will use the
Ballsitic rating, and it will be just as protective against flechette rounds
as regular rounds. And when it comes to knives and such, kevlar weave (which
is what FFBA more or less is), sucks (FFBA has poor Impact ratings). While
those armours with solid, rigid plates and such in them, give much better
ratings.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
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b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 8
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Flechette's
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 02:24:40 -0500
>They don't do the full damage against armoured targets, I checked it, it
>goes something like :
>
>Flechettes increase damage level by one against _unarmoured_ targets.

Right, against armored the damage is standard, but the target recieves
double impact or normal ballistic armor rating for defense.

>They're drek for everything but called head shots against someone without
>a helmet/orthskin/dermal, etc. Then they're excellent.

"The only effect of dermal armor, other than adding its rating to the
character's body attribute is that it negates the Damage level increasing
effects of flechette ammunition." (SRII pg. 93)

Orthoskin, on the other hand, attempts to diffuse the trauma of a wound over
a broader area... I wouldn't allow any bonuses for it against flechettes.

The key point is this, nearly everyone wears some sort of armor. So
flechettes don't end up near as nasty as they seem. I, like many others
here, feel that the round is portrayed poorly in the game, so here are a
couple possible house variations...

1) Flechette rounds use impact armor for penetration.

2) Flechette rounds use half impact armor, but suffer a loss of one level
of damage code.

3) Flechette rounds use half impact armor for penetration.

4) Flechette rounds use half ballistic armor rating.

OK, so I did more than a couple. Take a look at these and post your
thoughts. If you feel that I missed a possibility, then post an idea.
Basically, I think we need to come up with some new flechette rules. The
current ones seem to better portray the damage that Glaser safety slugs (or
similar rounds) would do and those are NOTHING like flechettes.


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 9
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Flechette's
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 03:41:58 -0400
Bob Ooton writes:

> 1) Flechette rounds use impact armor for penetration.
>
> 2) Flechette rounds use half impact armor, but suffer a loss of one level
> of damage code.
>
> 3) Flechette rounds use half impact armor for penetration.
>
> 4) Flechette rounds use half ballistic armor rating.

Or you could just go the easy route and let them up the damage
code even against armored targets. The double impact generally reduces
the power level to nearly nil anyway. That and it's easy to remember.

Marc
Message no. 10
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Flechette's
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 17:46:06 +0930
Bob Ooton wrote:
>
> 1) Flechette rounds use impact armor for penetration.
>
> 2) Flechette rounds use half impact armor, but suffer a loss of one level
> of damage code.
>
> 3) Flechette rounds use half impact armor for penetration.
>
> 4) Flechette rounds use half ballistic armor rating.

What about the one from first edition:

Flechettes either go against half ballistic, or DOUBLE impact, whichever is
greater.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 11
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Flechette's
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 20:59:31 +1000
Bob Ooton writes:

> "The only effect of dermal armor, other than adding its rating to the
> character's body attribute is that it negates the Damage level increasing
> effects of flechette ammunition." (SRII pg. 93)
>
> Orthoskin, on the other hand, attempts to diffuse the trauma of a wound over
> a broader area... I wouldn't allow any bonuses for it against flechettes.

But then again, that's the principle of kevlar armour, and if you are
wearing armour, you get the bonus, so why not orthoskin?

> [Flechette house rules]

OK, I'm a gun-inept person, and don't really know all that much about
firearms and ammunition, so could some gun nut out there give me a complete
rundown on flechette ammo - it's makeup, variants, principles, effectiveness
vs kevlar, bulk armour, expected damage, etc etc? Thanks.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 12
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Flechettes
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 21:22:05 +1000
Paul Jonathan Adam writes:

> This was the single-dart type. There's no current real-world equivalent
> to Shadowrun 'bundle' flechette apart from exotics like Glaser Safety and
> MagSafe ammo, both of which almost stop dead on any armour by design.

This sounded fine, until I read Gurths post which completely contradicted
it. So what's the real answer? And, even if "bundle" flechettes don't exist,
would they be similar to the "dart" type when it came to penetration and
damage? Or not?

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 13
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Flechettes
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 20:01:37 GMT
> > This was the single-dart type. There's no current real-world equivalent
> > to Shadowrun 'bundle' flechette apart from exotics like Glaser Safety and
> > MagSafe ammo, both of which almost stop dead on any armour by design.
>
> This sounded fine, until I read Gurths post which completely contradicted
> it. So what's the real answer? And, even if "bundle" flechettes don't
exist,
> would they be similar to the "dart" type when it came to penetration and
> damage? Or not?

Sheesh, Damon, you know how to ask the nasty questions! :-)

Okay, somewhat lengthy exposition follows.

Real world flechette ammo might equate to what Shadowrun calls APDS: a
single long dart, 1.5 to 3 millimetres in diameter, in a plastic sabot
reaching humongous muzzle velocities. Because of its minimal frontal area
its penetration is extreme, but its wounding effect is low: it just stabs
a tiny hole through you. So APDS rules would do nicely: I'd imagine in sixty
years they should find a way to make the flechette stable through solid
materials but unstable in liquid, so it has a worthwhile wound effect. (See
later for more on this).

Glaser Safety Slug ammo is a lightweight empty jacket with a ceramic tip,
filled with No. 12 shot in a liquid matrix. On hitting anything, the tip
ruptures and the shot sprays out. It has almost no penetration at all of
anything - Kevlar or plate are equally good at stopping it - but it does
have a massive wounding effect on unarmoured targets. So up damage
dramatically on unarmoured targets...but one man survived a .38 Glaser in
the chest because it shattered on a metal button on his shirt. Gives you an
idea of how little armour stops these.

The Shadowrun flechettes seem to use a bundle of sharp slivers instead of
the birdshot, which might give them some capability against soft armour while
keeping the massive wound effects. Hard armour would be disproportionately
effective, but soft armour almost no use at all, and the wound effect good.

About the medium being penetrated: the French have a rather distinctive round
called the THV, which has a bizarre shape that I can't easily describe. The
intention is to have the bullet be stable in air and in solid matter (e.g.
shooting through body armour, intervening cover etc.) but in fluids it
becomes unstable and transfers energy at an enormous rate, creating massive
wounds. The only easy solution is hide in a swimming pool :-) The principle
should eventually be adaptable to "real world" flechettes, as I said.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or
for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 14
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Flechettes
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 02:26:17 -0700
On Tue, 11 Apr 1995, Damion Milliken wrote:

> Paul Jonathan Adam writes:
>
> > This was the single-dart type. There's no current real-world equivalent
> > to Shadowrun 'bundle' flechette apart from exotics like Glaser Safety and
> > MagSafe ammo, both of which almost stop dead on any armour by design.
>
> This sounded fine, until I read Gurths post which completely contradicted
> it. So what's the real answer? And, even if "bundle" flechettes don't
exist,
> would they be similar to the "dart" type when it came to penetration and
> damage? Or not?
>
> --
In the intrest of clarification Glaser Safety Slugs are not a
flechette type round. It is extremly small lead pellets in a liquid
Teflon (tm) contained in a plastic capsule. The idea is 100% energy
transfer on first impact with no penatration. Thus if you miss the round
will not carry through 2 or 3 walls and kill someone tree doors down.
They also dont ricochet, they just leave a smear on the pavement. The are
also not cheap, about $2 US each when I last checked.

Part of the confusion is that the term flechette is currently
used to discribe two different types of projectiles. The small nail like
dart used in "shotgun" type rounds for Artilley and grenade launchers and
for a particular type of expermental rifle projecile. If there is intrest
I can try to assemble more information on the subject.....but is likely
to be several days.

David Hinkley
(dhinkley@***.org)
Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Flechettes
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:15:44 +0200
>> This was the single-dart type. There's no current real-world equivalent
>> to Shadowrun 'bundle' flechette apart from exotics like Glaser Safety and
>> MagSafe ammo, both of which almost stop dead on any armour by design.
>
>This sounded fine, until I read Gurths post which completely contradicted
>it. So what's the real answer? And, even if "bundle" flechettes don't exist,
>would they be similar to the "dart" type when it came to penetration and
>damage? Or not?

I contradicted something? Probably didn't make myself clear (as usual...)
Most modern flechette rounds contain _one_single_ penetrator of up to around
5 cm long and 1-2 mm in diameter, and with small tail fins at the end. For
some weapons, such as 12.7x99mm machine guns, rounds exist which have four
such darts in one round. Shotgun flechette rounds contain up to 20 or so
darts of a similar design, but these are only around 1.5-2 cm long.
The FASA "flechette" rounds are, in my view, very similar to buckshot but
with metal slivers instead of spheres.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dat wilt ik nou effe kwijt!
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Message no. 16
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Flechettes
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 20:50:33 +1000
OK, thanks to Paul, David and Gurth for their detailed explanations of
flechette rounds. It seems to me that it is a case of FASA misnaming their
ammunition, rather than the flechettes having the wrong stats. A RL flechette
is more like an APDS round in performance. While a SR flechette is more like
a glaser or buckshot round in performance (the cost would indicate glaser).
So I don't think the ammunitions statistics need changing, merely the naming
(if you really want to).

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 17
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Flechette's
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 18:14:39 -0600
On Fri, 7 Apr 1995, Mark Kalvin wrote:

<snip>
<snip again>
> This is a fascinating contrast with the real world. Considering that body
> armor made of aramid fiber works by dissipating the energy of a bullet's
> impact over the surface of it's weave, one would think that flechettes would
> be only marginally less effective against it if less effective at all. We're
> talking about steel needles here.

Too true.

> There are stories about "cop-killer bullets" (conical copper,
armor-piercing
> projectiles) that are supposed to punch right through it without much
> difficulty---the gun magazine I read gave a detailed procedure for making
> them. I've also read that, without hard plates, aramid-fiber armor is
> supposed to offer almost no protection against a good, sharp knife.

Yes and Yes. Not going to say more, since it would require another Edge
lesson!:)

> Does anyone else out there think that this game concept requires some
> rethinking?

I just tried to send a 89K file to the list full of new ammo and it
doesnt seem to have made it onto the list. Did anyone get it. It was
titled TFA. I really need to know if anyone got it. Somebody send me
email to let me know if you GOT IT. Is there a size max for sending to
the listserver? If not any ideas why it didnt get to the list?

Pissed off! Edge

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They are infinitely patient, prefering to minimize risks to themelves and
suffer a thousand defeats if they gain the final victory. Still, they are
diabolically clever, and devious in the extream. If they fail militarily,
they infiltrate and corrupt. Now they are on the march once more, and the
more they are set back, the more determined, devious and dangerous they
become. Curr ahee
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Peterson (Paul Finch) Edge | US Army Ret. 1/506th Inf (Mtr. Lt.)
EMT-Paramedic/BSN Wanna-be and Will-Be! Self Empowered Gun Nut
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Flechette's
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 12:54:34 +0200
>I just tried to send a 89K file to the list full of new ammo and it
>doesnt seem to have made it onto the list. Did anyone get it. It was
>titled TFA. I really need to know if anyone got it. Somebody send me
>email to let me know if you GOT IT. Is there a size max for sending to
>the listserver? If not any ideas why it didnt get to the list?

I didn't get it, and isn't 89k a bit much to send to 200+ people? (How many
_are_ subscribed these days anyway?) Wouldn't it be easier to put it at some
ftp site so anyone who wants to can get it?


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dat wilt ik nou effe kwijt!
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Message no. 19
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Flechettes
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 19:58:00 GMT
In message <199504121015.AA17436@***.xs4all.nl> SHADOWRN@*****.nic.surfnet.nl
writes:
> Most modern flechette rounds contain _one_single_ penetrator of up to around
> 5 cm long and 1-2 mm in diameter, and with small tail fins at the end. For
> some weapons, such as 12.7x99mm machine guns, rounds exist which have four
> such darts in one round. Shotgun flechette rounds contain up to 20 or so
> darts of a similar design, but these are only around 1.5-2 cm long.
> The FASA "flechette" rounds are, in my view, very similar to buckshot but
> with metal slivers instead of spheres.

I saw it as Glazer with sharp needles instead of birdshot. Same difference :-)
It wouldn't be buckshot because it would spread too fast from what would be
a cylinder-bored rifled shotgun: but confine it lightly a la Glazer so they only
seperate on impact, and it becomes way nasty.

I wonder off and on about shotshell rounds for rifles, pistols etc., although
in SR terms (and most others) you'd be better off with bullets.


--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or
for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Flechette's, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!