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Message no. 1
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Foamed Titanium and Fullerene Bone lacing
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 23:11:54 -0700
:Foamed Titanium and Fullerene Bone Lacing:
:
:Both types add +3 to characters' Body Attribute, and give 2 levels of
:impact and ballistic armor.

<snip>

:Foamed Titanium
:Essence: 1.15 Cost: 225,000 Avail: 18/28 days Street Index: 3 Legal:
6-R
:
:Fullerene
:Essence: 0.5 Cost: 550,000 Avail: 24/28 days Street Index: 4 Legal:
6-R
:
:Design Notes: I modelled the invasiveness and weight of Foamed Titanium
on
:Aluminum bone lacing, being of similiar weight. I modelled Fullerene bone
:lacing on plastic, hence the equivalent essense costs for the two types.


The cause of essence loss is not merely deviation from physiological
norm, but deviation from normal capablity. While similar in form, these
wares have very difrent impact on cpability than thier lesser cousins, and
should hence cost more essence.
Besides, the foamed titanium costs the same as beta-ware titianum,
with similar avaliblity, yet is clearly better. The fulerene lacing is
just gross; better than delta-ware T-bones (except offensively), yet still
cheeper.
HMM, if fulerene is monofilament, what would hapen to the bones under
stress? That's kinda like lacing jello with guitar wired to make it
stronger... Whats the fullerene gonna lace WITH? Also, isn't it rather
poor in compression?

Lasty, I think even "indestructbiluim" bone lacing would not be better
in defensive effect than titanium; you can get pretty fucked up without
hurting a bone (closed head injury / severed limb artery / guts torn out),
and once you do hit a bone like the ribs, you are already bleeding.

:It would be quite expensive; I recommend having it only at Delta-grade
:clinic. Foamed aluminum might be available at a Beta clinic. Likely
users:
:Special Forces Ops (not stupid Shadowrunner ex-SpecOps, current, long
:time-in-grade types), elite Corp striketeam/bodyguards, Jaguar Guards,
and
:all those other high powered Shadowrun nasty bad guys. One of my players,
:the sam, is on this list, so he might hear of it from here, but his
:character won't catch wind of it for a long, long time.

If its so unobtainable, why does it have a street index of any type?
Shouldn't that be "street index: NO" ?

Mongoose
Message no. 2
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Foamed Titanium and Fullerene Bone lacing
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 01:24:29 -0500
On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 23:11:54 -0700 Mongoose <evamarie@**********.net>
writes:
<SNIP>
>:It would be quite expensive; I recommend having it only at Delta-grade
>:clinic. Foamed aluminum might be available at a Beta clinic. Likely
users:
>:Special Forces Ops (not stupid Shadowrunner ex-SpecOps, current, long
>:time-in-grade types), elite Corp striketeam/bodyguards, Jaguar Guards,
and
>:all those other high powered Shadowrun nasty bad guys. One of my
players,
>:the sam, is on this list, so he might hear of it from here, but his
>:character won't catch wind of it for a long, long time.

> If its so unobtainable, why does it have a street index of any type?
>Shouldn't that be "street index: NO" ?
>
>Mongoose

Nope. It should read "Street Index: HA!" ;)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 3
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Foamed Titanium and Fullerene Bone lacing
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 01:19:44 -0700
> The cause of essence loss is not merely deviation from physiological
>norm, but deviation from normal capablity. While similar in form, these
>wares have very difrent impact on cpability than thier lesser cousins, and
>should hence cost more essence.

I disagree. Where did you come up with this? I don't see anything in SR3 to
support it. Essence should be the physiological impact of the cyberware
upon the users system. I explained my rationale ... did you read it?

> Besides, the foamed titanium costs the same as beta-ware titianum,
>with similar avaliblity, yet is clearly better. The fulerene lacing is
>just gross; better than delta-ware T-bones (except offensively), yet still
>cheeper.

That's why it's called SOTA: State of the Art. It keeps changing.

Also, do you understand Street Index? If you had read it more closely you
would have noted a Street Index of 4 for fullerene. That means that the
actual cost of the 550,000 nuyen lacing is 2.2 million. Now, delta Titanium
lacing costs a mere 750,000 times a Street Index of 1.5 = 1.125 million
nuyen, so you're quite wrong.

> HMM, if fulerene is monofilament, what would hapen to the bones under
>stress? That's kinda like lacing jello with guitar wired to make it
>stronger... Whats the fullerene gonna lace WITH? Also, isn't it rather
>poor in compression?

Perhaps if you had read closer you might have noted I was talking about
weaving threads into fabric? To borrow your jello analogy, it would be more
like supporting it in fine hose. Proper placement for RBC/WBC production,
but we are still talking about macroscopic weave, not threads. Given
nanites, the fullerene (which is just another form of carbon, and bonds
quite well with benzene) it will cleave to the bone quite nicely.

Axial strain, bending stress, and torsion all produce tensile and shear
stresses, so compressive properties of fullerene are rather unimportant.

> Lasty, I think even "indestructbiluim" bone lacing would not be better
>in defensive effect than titanium; you can get pretty fucked up without
>hurting a bone (closed head injury / severed limb artery / guts torn out),
>and once you do hit a bone like the ribs, you are already bleeding.

Where did you pull this from? Last time I checked my anatomy books, bones
were designed to *protect* the body. Having indestructable bones protects
the heart, brain, and several other body organs. It's not a sure thing, but
it's better by a long shot. I am suggesting defensive effect is greater due
to strength ... as does the canon Shadowrun. Else, why is titanium bone
lacing better than aluminum which is better than plastic?

> If its so unobtainable, why does it have a street index of any type?
>Shouldn't that be "street index: NO" ?

Again, do you understand the Availability and Street Index rules? It has an
Availability of 24 for fullerene, 18 for foamed titanium. That means the
character's contacts must roll 24's and 18's, and that each test takes a
month. Do you know how long, statistically, it will be before someone gets
this?

A Gamemaster may optionally allow a character to buy down Availability at
increased cost and waiting time ... but it's optional. I wouldn't, myself,
in this case.

>Mongoose

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 4
From: Michael Orion Jackson <orion@****.CC.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Foamed Titanium and Fullerene Bone lacing
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 04:43:03 -0500
1) I didn't see the original post but I like the idea.
(Fullerenes are just nifty. I've synthesized them a few times for variuos
labs.)
2) I'm not trying to be nitpicky, but why would bonding to benzene
be a good thing? Maybe I read the post wrong, but... If you don't think
benzene is something you'd want far away from your bones or any other
tissue consult a MSDS on it (http://msds.lib.utexas.edu is UT's msds
server IIRC). I suppose adsorbing it on the bone's surface would be
preferrable to absorbing it into the bone itself but only by a small
degree.

:^) Of course, I've also been up for almsot 48 continuos hours so
take whatever I've said with a mondo grain of salt... (I think I program
better when I'm just ass tired and it's 5 am...)

*****************Michael Orion Jackson******************
***********TAMS Class of 96/UT Class of 2000************
*********************Random Quote:**********************
*<<Ya govoriet pa russkie, a ne mnovo.>> 3 sems..... :)*
********************************************************
Message no. 5
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Foamed Titanium and Fullerene Bone lacing
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 04:00:10 -0700
> 2) I'm not trying to be nitpicky, but why would bonding to benzene
>be a good thing? Maybe I read the post wrong, but... If you don't think
>benzene is something you'd want far away from your bones or any other
>tissue consult a MSDS on it (http://msds.lib.utexas.edu is UT's msds

Ah. In the papers mentioned they construct gears by using benzene fragments
as teeth. It's not really the whole benzene molecule ... So I was thinking
of "teeth" to settle into the porous bone surface ...

The other option is to make a "starene", or star shaped fullerene.

> :^) Of course, I've also been up for almsot 48 continuos hours so
>take whatever I've said with a mondo grain of salt... (I think I program
>better when I'm just ass tired and it's 5 am...)

Or perhaps that's just when you do most of your programming? ;-)

>*****************Michael Orion Jackson******************

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 6
From: Razor Girl <sprawlg@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Foamed Titanium and Fullerene Bone lacing
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 07:37:35 PDT
>> The cause of essence loss is not merely deviation from
physiological
>>norm, but deviation from normal capablity. While similar in form,
these
>>wares have very difrent impact on cpability than thier lesser cousins,
and
>>should hence cost more essence.
>
>I disagree. Where did you come up with this? I don't see anything in
SR3 to
>support it. Essence should be the physiological impact of the cyberware
>upon the users system. I explained my rationale ... did you read it?
>

>>Mongoose
>
>--Adam
>
He is picking this up from the magic books and discussions of Aural
Integrity. The concept of invasiveness is relevant but the deviance from
the body's natural arua state to what ever state it is in now also
determines a huge chunk of it. The best example is in
Cybertechnology.Think of Move-By-Wire. It shows a little unit and some
wires on the spinal column. Invasivily this is not as extreme as four
cyber limbs and a cyber torso. But the MBW system has a huge essence
cost. The effect of throwing the body into constant seziure and zooming
it's reaction speed to the maxiumum certainly costs huge essence. In
fact it will kill most people withou customization.

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Message no. 7
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Foamed Titanium and Fullerene Bone lacing
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 19:10:56 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:19 AM 9/12/98 -0700, you wrote:
>> The cause of essence loss is not merely deviation from
physiological
>>norm, but deviation from normal capablity. While similar in form,
these
>>wares have very difrent impact on cpability than thier lesser
cousins, and
>>should hence cost more essence.
>
>I disagree. Where did you come up with this? I don't see anything in
SR3 to
>support it. Essence should be the physiological impact of the
cyberware
>upon the users system. I explained my rationale ... did you read it?

Most likely that view came from Cybertechnology, p. 66:

"the problem with cyberware is the changes it makes between the aura
and the body. You cna get away with altering your body up to a point;
but eventually you reach a threshold where the difference between the
aural template and the physical body is so great that the spirit slips
away or disolves..."


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.5.3

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 8
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Foamed Titanium and Fullerene Bone lacing
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 20:49:57 -0700
:He is picking this up from the magic books and discussions of Aural
:Integrity.

It's also in Cybertechnology, p. 66.

:The concept of invasiveness is relevant but the deviance from
:the body's natural arua state to what ever state it is in now also
:determines a huge chunk of it.
<snip>
:Think of Move-By-Wire. <snip> In
:fact it will kill most people withou customization.


In fact, MBW 4 will kill ALL people if not implanted with
customization. Every metahuman (hell, every normal creature and most
para's) has 6 essence; it's primarily a measure of metaphysical integrity.

Mongoose
Message no. 9
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Foamed Titanium and Fullerene Bone lacing
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 22:15:25 -0700
:> The cause of essence loss is not merely deviation from physiological
:>norm, but deviation from normal capability. While similar in form,
these
:>wares have very different impact on capability than their lesser
cousins,
and
:>should hence cost more essence.
:
:I disagree. Where did you come up with this? I don't see anything in SR3
to
:support it. Essence should be the physiological impact of the cyberware
:upon the users system. I explained my rationale ... did you read it?

<farce> No, I'm illetyerate. I hab someboby reed me the asens
entigraty theery from Cybertachnalagy, butt I mey be to stopud to git it.
</farce>

Yeah, I read your idea with interest; that's why I responded with some
reasonable ideas as to why they would not work as you proposed in SR's
world. I don't waste time responding to things I don't find interesting,
most times.
I read you rational, and explained why I disagreed. Essence
cost is NOT just a physiological impact; if it were, healthy people could
live with more cyber than sick people. I you don't think the CT theory
suppoerts my claim, you'll need to rethink more than just bone-lacing to
get essence cost to reflect physiological impact. Like why every person
looses the same essence from the same wares, despite difrent health
levels.

:> Besides, the foamed titanium costs the same as beta-ware titanium,
:>with similar availability, yet is clearly better. The fulerene lacing
is
:>just gross; better than delta-ware T-bones (except offensively), yet
still
:>cheaper.
:
:That's why it's called SOTA: State of the Art. It keeps changing.

Foamed titanium is still titanium; why wouldn't they use it in
deltaware?
If this is near future materials tech, why would it only appear as
cyberware so far down the road? I genrally assume all SR tech
incorporates materials you and I have never heard of; it is ahead of the
tech curve as we know it.
:
:Also, do you understand Street Index? If you had read it more closely you
:would have noted a Street Index of 4 for fullerene. That means that the
:actual cost of the 550,000 nuyen lacing is 2.2 million. Now, delta
Titanium
:lacing costs a mere 750,000 times a Street Index of 1.5 = 1.125 million
:nuyen, so you're quite wrong.
:

I understand street index to be a price paid "on the street", IE under
the table, illegitimately, whatever- not a legal purchase price. This
stuff would not seem to be available that way, according to your own
suggest
uses; most folks implementing it would not be paying street index.
The SI would not matter.
And, unfortunately, charging more money for gear does not make it
balanced (or realistic).

:> HMM, if fulerene is monofilament, what would happen to the bones
under
:>stress? That's kinda like lacing jello with guitar wired to make it
:>stronger... Whats the fullerene gonna lace WITH? Also, isn't it rather
:>poor in compression?
:
:Perhaps if you had read closer you might have noted I was talking about
:weaving threads into fabric? To borrow your jello analogy, it would be
more
:like supporting it in fine hose. Proper placement for RBC/WBC production,
:but we are still talking about macroscopic weave, not threads. Given
:nanites, the fullerene (which is just another form of carbon, and bonds
:quite well with benzene) it will cleave to the bone quite nicely.

So you've got a nice composite material structure, but your "epoxy"
(the bone) is still the weak link in the chain. <shrug> I'm an only an
educated layman, but I don't buy it. Yes, it would make the bones (much)
stronger, and with less material than other methods; but how much good
does that do trauma survival wise?

:Axial strain, bending stress, and torsion all produce tensile and shear
:stresses, so compressive properties of fullerene are rather unimportant.

The compressive properties of the BONE are still important. In
Fuller-land, it is possible to produce tension only structures; in the
real world, it is much harder, especially as bones are primarily
compressive structures. (They are also Living, changing structures, that
need stress or they atrophy; we will assume they solved that problem in
implementing normal bone lacing, but as you move to fancier materials and
pure-tensile structures, tolerances become more important).


:> Lastly, I think even "indestructbiluim" bone lacing would not be
better
:>in defensive effect than titanium; you can get pretty fucked up without
:>hurting a bone (closed head injury / severed limb artery / guts torn
out),
:>and once you do hit a bone like the ribs, you are already bleeding.
:
:Where did you pull this from?

Several manuals on trauma and emergency care. The primary factors
causing immediate death are blood loss, fluid volume loss, and the 4 types
of shock. The injuries that lead to those do not require damage to bone;
broken bones are considered a SECONDARY indicator of trauma. I returned
the book to the medical libretto, so I can't footnote.- oh, wait, here is
some
samples from my research sheet: Kenneth G. Swan, "Gunshot Wounds :
pathophysiology and management", 1980; Colin Robertson, "The Management
of Major Trauma", 1991; Susan Budass Sheehy, "Manual of clinical trauma
care : the first hour", 1994.
What are YOUR sources on the physiological effects of various forms of
trauma? If you are BOTH a medical and materials expert, I'll take your
word for it.
Actually, I don't find the protection provided outrageous, just the
extremely low essence cost; its not a physiological thing, and in fact,
its pretty much PURELY a game balance factor. Wares that do more for the
character take more essence.
I do have trouble with the effects of ALL lacing re certain types of
damage; fire is resisted by (1/2) impact armor, using body; all bone
lacing
helps one or both, but by the time fire is hitting bone, you are gonna
loose consciousness and be at risk of death. (yeah, it would still help
VS
permanent organ loss).

:Last time I checked my anatomy books, bones
:were designed to *protect* the body. Having indestructable bones protects
:the heart, brain, and several other body organs.

The bones are "designed" to allow motion when acted on by muscle and
support various organs; they also provide protection against certain
life-ending injuries. They FAIL to protect the skin, most blood vessels,
and almost all skeletal muscle. If the bones DON'T give in certain cases
(say, hard impacts), the shock will be transmitted elsewhere, like to the
soft tissue of the joints and spine. A ruptured c-4 disk is no joking
matter...

:It's not a sure thing, but
:it's better by a long shot. I am suggesting defensive effect is greater
due
:to strength ... as does the canon Shadowrun. Else, why is titanium bone
:lacing better than aluminum which is better than plastic?
:

There would be a line of diminishing returns. Titanium bones have a
high enough barrier to resist almost all attacks; something stronger would
not provide measurably more protection.

I'm not saying your being lame or stupid or anything (although you
seem to think I am); I like the idea enough to debate its merits. In
fact, I thought of doing "woven monowire bone lacing" a long time back,
and dismissed it as being physically impractical, economically ruinous,
and essence destroying (very, very unnatural substance). The first two
could be diminished by "SOTA advances" (although such a SOTA would make
ALL cyber cheaper...)- the last, IMO, would not, and is a fundamental
aspect of cyber in SR.


Mongoose
Message no. 10
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Foamed Titanium and Fullerene Bone lacing
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:46:17 -0700
> I read you rational, and explained why I disagreed. Essence
>cost is NOT just a physiological impact; if it were, healthy people could
>live with more cyber than sick people. I you don't think the CT theory
>suppoerts my claim, you'll need to rethink more than just bone-lacing to
>get essence cost to reflect physiological impact. Like why every person
>looses the same essence from the same wares, despite difrent health
>levels.

*Shrug* I viewed fullerene as about as "invasive" as plastic. I guess I
don't buy the "increased capability" theory of costing more essence ...
Vision Mag 3 has the same essence cost as Vision Mag 1, yet one is quite a
bit more capable than the other one. Also, you can and do lose Essence due
to drug and alcohol usage, at least as given in Shadowtech. So there seems
to be some correlation between Essence and general health. As a matter of
fact, I've always portrayed the fried squatters in the Barrens as very low
Essence-wise, which usually saves them from being Vampire snacks. ;-)

> Foamed titanium is still titanium; why wouldn't they use it in
>deltaware?

Sorry, that's like saying Stainless Steel is the same as Cast Iron ... not
true at all. As far as not using deltaware ...

Sure, it's nice to be able to buy the same stuff for less essence also
cheaper. That is what I view as an evolutionary, or incremental change.
RAM, for example. Then there's revolutionary, such as optical memory or
quantum computing ... this sort of thing is best reflected by a new entry.
Else, why not call Dermal Sheathing just "Delta grade Dermal Plating? Why
make Smartlink II ... why not call it Delta Smartlink? Does this argument
make sense?

>If this is near future materials tech, why would it only appear as
>cyberware so far down the road? I genrally assume all SR tech
>incorporates materials you and I have never heard of; it is ahead of the
>tech curve as we know it.

I'm pretty sceptical on that account. If 'twere so, Barrier Ratings and
Firearms, to name but two examples, would be a lot higher and deadlier.

>uses; most folks implementing it would not be paying street index.
>The SI would not matter.

According to SR3, they would.

> And, unfortunately, charging more money for gear does not make it
>balanced (or realistic).

Agreed. Try telling that to FASA.

> So you've got a nice composite material structure, but your "epoxy"
>(the bone) is still the weak link in the chain. <shrug> I'm an only an
>educated layman, but I don't buy it. Yes, it would make the bones (much)
>stronger, and with less material than other methods; but how much good
>does that do trauma survival wise?

Case and strain hardening are common and accepted practices, as is
pre-loading of stresses, when you are talking about material strength.
About 95% of the load in torsion, for example, is taken up by the outer
surface. In fact, you get a nice composite by combining a brittle outside
with "soft and chewy" inside. ;-) The main reason for the ancient katana's
remarkable material properties (slicing through plate armor, horse heads,
etc.) had to do with its traditional manufacture. In effect, the smith
created a soft core of iron surrounded by brittle (and razor sharp) steel.
The combined hardness / brittleness and plasticity meant the blades had
incredible strength.

> The compressive properties of the BONE are still important. In
>Fuller-land, it is possible to produce tension only structures; in the

The overall engineering strength of the bone is important. See above remarks.

>real world, it is much harder, especially as bones are primarily
>compressive structures. (They are also Living, changing structures, that

Not quite. The human body is a complicated set of linkages ... even a
simple 5 bar linkage for major limbs doesn't suffice. There are
compressive, axial, tensile, shearing, and bending moments ... and in
plenty.

Also, in real structures compressive force is almost never in the failure
criterion ... it usually fails through axial or shear stress. In fact,
compressive or tensile stresses are typically ignored as they do not
contribute significantly.

> Several manuals on trauma and emergency care. The primary factors
>causing immediate death are blood loss, fluid volume loss, and the 4 types
>of shock. The injuries that lead to those do not require damage to bone;
>broken bones are considered a SECONDARY indicator of trauma. I returned
>the book to the medical libretto, so I can't footnote.- oh, wait, here is
>some
>samples from my research sheet: Kenneth G. Swan, "Gunshot Wounds :
>pathophysiology and management", 1980; Colin Robertson, "The Management
>of Major Trauma", 1991; Susan Budass Sheehy, "Manual of clinical trauma
>care : the first hour", 1994.

Thanks for the references.

> Actually, I don't find the protection provided outrageous, just the
>extremely low essence cost; its not a physiological thing, and in fact,
>its pretty much PURELY a game balance factor. Wares that do more for the
>character take more essence.

I suppose I disagree with this, given Smartlink II, Vision Mag-3, etc. It
seems there is some general correlation with how "invasive" a peice of
equipment is, and that's it. And as I mentioned earlier, I think if your
health is really bad you don't have 6 Essence.

> The bones are "designed" to allow motion when acted on by muscle and
>support various organs; they also provide protection against certain
>life-ending injuries. They FAIL to protect the skin, most blood vessels,
>and almost all skeletal muscle. If the bones DON'T give in certain cases
>(say, hard impacts), the shock will be transmitted elsewhere, like to the
>soft tissue of the joints and spine. A ruptured c-4 disk is no joking
>matter...

Sure ... do a full computer model of the human body under various forms of
stress, determine strength requirements and tolerances, then reinforce the
correct places. Provide additional support to soft tissues as necessary.

Note: I am not suggesting that the above is trival! In fact, I think the
study of these factors are what would make cyberware implementations more
"experimental" in nature and likely to take longer.

> There would be a line of diminishing returns. Titanium bones have a
>high enough barrier to resist almost all attacks; something stronger would
>not provide measurably more protection.

I don't think the line of diminishing returns is as low as you're putting
it. NASA is not considering making rockets out of titanium: they are
considering making rockets out of fullerene. With current and future
metals, alloys, and composites at best you will get a launch/booster
vehicle that is significantly heavier with the payload. With fullerenes you
will get a launch vehicle that is significantly lighter than the payload.
This just isn't doable with current tech.

I think we are getting into the "revolutionary" versus "evolutionary"
argument again. Even modest "revolutions", say, the use of copper in
microchip fabrication, cranks the bar much, much higher. Refinements get
you closer to the bar of no return, technology-wise.

> I'm not saying your being lame or stupid or anything (although you
>seem to think I am); I like the idea enough to debate its merits. In
>fact, I thought of doing "woven monowire bone lacing" a long time back,
>and dismissed it as being physically impractical, economically ruinous,
>and essence destroying (very, very unnatural substance). The first two
>could be diminished by "SOTA advances" (although such a SOTA would make
>ALL cyber cheaper...)- the last, IMO, would not, and is a fundamental
>aspect of cyber in SR.

Okay, first point taken. :-)

I don't see this as particularly essence destroying. If we use your
arguments of expanded capabilities being costlier essence-wise, then
certainly cybernetic senses, tactical computers, encephalons, datajacks,
etc. would be much, much worse. And what would be the rationale for
bioware? Explain to me, using your rationale, why Muscle Replacement costs
essence and Muscle Augmentation doesn't, even though they have the same
game effects, except that the non-essence version is actually better.
Explain why a Cerebral Booster doesn't cost Essence but an Encephalon does.
How is it that replacing your heart muscles with synthetic ones costs no
essence but getting a compartment in your fingernail does?

>Mongoose

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 11
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Foamed Titanium and Fullerene Bone lacing
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 02:11:10 -0700
> What are YOUR sources on the physiological effects of various forms of
>trauma? If you are BOTH a medical and materials expert, I'll take your
>word for it.

Dr. Martin Fackler of the Wound Ballistics Lab in Maryland has done a lot
of research on terminal ballistic effects.

Briefly, damage is hard to quantify, consisting of at least three factors:

Kinetic energy transfer. The bullet, upon encountering the human body,
gives up a certain percentage of it's kinetic energy. Small cross-section,
high sectional density rounds seem to give up less than ones with larger
cross-sections ... at least, until they tumble. Tumbling or "key-holing" of
a round, which occurs in *all* bullets tested up to .50 cal, is a mechanism
by which most of the energy can be transferred to the target.

Wound channel. The physical area of the wound times its length gives a
rough volume of destroyed tissue. This is best documented in numerous
tests, of which the most reliable are conducted with ballistic gelatin, a
substance that appears to be the most satisfactory at modelling the human
body. [Other techniques are, of course, less savory] There is a minimum
depth and diameter to the sample that must be used depending upon the
caliber and kinetic energy of the round tested.

Hydrostatic shock. Entrance of a round into the soft tissue of the human
body propagates shock waves that project much further than the immediate
wound channel. Depending upon the kinetic energy of the round this
shockwave can be responsible for significant secondary damage, often a much
larger volume than the primary wound channel. At one point it was theorized
to be able to stop the heart and/or provide significant shock to the
target, but this effect is not well-correlated and still being studied.

In general, it seems that kinetic energy is a main factor in bullet trauma.
However, if true then a 9mm Parabellum would be more lethal than a .45,
which is clearly not the case. Wound channel also appears to be
significant, and is borne out by the use of frangible ammunition such as
the Glaser safety slug. And of course, hydrostatic shock seems to be a
function of geometry of constraint (e.g. the skull) and velocity of the
round.

Note that I am leaving out more complicating factors such as specific
energy transference along wound trajectory and wound channel placement and
geometry.

Relating the (did I say it was brief? ;-) discussion to the use of lacing,
it would seem that lacing would help in the absorbsion of kinetic energy
and limiting of the wound channel. Thus, it would seem to indicate
increased survivability.

But, I'm certainly interested in what medicine has to say about the above,
and of course, what any EMT/medical types would say from experience.

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 12
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Foamed Titanium and Fullerene Bone lacing
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:35:24 -0400
On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, Adam Getchell wrote:

->> What are YOUR sources on the physiological effects of various forms of
->>trauma? If you are BOTH a medical and materials expert, I'll take your
->>word for it.
->
<snip ballistic definitions>
->
->In general, it seems that kinetic energy is a main factor in bullet trauma.
->However, if true then a 9mm Parabellum would be more lethal than a .45,
->which is clearly not the case. Wound channel also appears to be
->significant, and is borne out by the use of frangible ammunition such as
->the Glaser safety slug. And of course, hydrostatic shock seems to be a
->function of geometry of constraint (e.g. the skull) and velocity of the
->round.

It also has to do with the amount of energy which is liberated
from the round (so, if the round leaves your body it's usually better,
since that means it took some of it's energy with it). A 9mm round would
slow less in the body because of it's smaller size while a .45 would slow
more due to it's larger size. The 9mm would leave less energy in the body
while the .45 would leave more in the body.

->Note that I am leaving out more complicating factors such as specific
->energy transference along wound trajectory and wound channel placement and
->geometry.

Many thanks for that... ]:-)

->Relating the (did I say it was brief? ;-) discussion to the use of lacing,
->it would seem that lacing would help in the absorbsion of kinetic energy
->and limiting of the wound channel. Thus, it would seem to indicate
->increased survivability.

Correct, while at the same time it would increase the likelyhood
of fragmentation of the bullet or liberating more energy from it which the
body would absorb.

->But, I'm certainly interested in what medicine has to say about the above,
->and of course, what any EMT/medical types would say from experience.
->
->--Adam

Ok, I was an EMT briefly, but my folks have been in medicine as
long as I've been alive and I've almost been raised in hospital ERs. I
explained my portion (maybe clarified some, as yours was indeed the
majority of explanation of damage) and we should now bring this back to
SR.
Has anyone besides me noticed (of course you have) the tendency
towards 3/woundlevel in SR? I mean with burst fire it's +3 power, +1
wound level. With auto-fire it's every three bullets add one to the power
level. With firearms in general (and I'm saying in general, I know there
are exceptions) it's (power-3)/Woundlevel (i.e. 6L, 9M, 12S, 15D). In
the previous cases, always remember to round down, minimum of L. Given
this 'step' procedure, the primary detail in designing any firearm would
be determining the power level, as the wound level can be determined by
subtracting three from the power of the weapon, dividing the result by 3
and then looking at what step it falls in. This applies well for all
bullet/slug firing weapons of standard types. For customized ammunition,
modify accordingly (explosive-style: add 2 to power but do not upgrade
damage level, flechette-style: increase wound level by one but make
impact armor doubly effective, etcetera). For sporting rifles, assault
rifles and submachine guns, do not subtract 3 from power.
Examples (because some people need/like them):

A pistol with a power of 6 would have a wound level of L (6L).
A pistol with a power of 9 would have a wound level of M (9M).
A submachine gun with a power of 7 would have a wound level of M
(7M).
A Rifle with a power of 10, munition of flechette (shotgun), would
have a wound level of ({10-3}/3 (round down) gives 2, stage up for
flechette) S (10S).
A sporting rifle with a power of 9 would have a wound level of S
(9S).
An assault rifle with a power of 8 would have a wound level of M
(8M).
All of these weapons (any Light pistol, most heavy pistols,
HK227-S, Defiance T-250, Remington 950, any assault rifle) are in BBB3 at
the listed damage codes. Food for thought.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 13
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Foamed Titanium and Fullerene Bone lacing
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:29:02 -0400
At 02:11 AM 9/14/98 -0700, you wrote:

>But, I'm certainly interested in what medicine has to say about the above,
>and of course, what any EMT/medical types would say from experience.

I'm going to have to say that it's a mixed bag. In a car crash type of
situation, having stronger bones (laced with whatever) would be a very nice
thing to have. Not to mention Joe-Theisman type freak occurences.

However, most injuries (regardless of if it's a gunshot or a blown knee
from football) qualify as soft-tissue injury. And in this case, I'd say
that better bones isn't going to help. Getting a chunk of flesh blown off
is going to hurt, lots, regardless of what my bones are laced with. And to
my recollection, most trauma, especially violent trauma, deals with
soft-tissue. AND how are laced bones going to help you when you are
bleeding out? Biggest immediate problem from trauma is blood loss.

<random thought zone>
Now what happens if a bullet or a sword hits a laced bone? It could just
blow right through, as if nothing happened (dependent on a whole host of
factors of course). It could ricochet, leaving the bone intact, but
sending the bullet or the blade skittering off in another direction. This
happens plenty of times with plain old vanilla bones. Just think if the
bones were made from some hard to destroy substance.

Which makes me think of the sort of problems that a DocWagon ER team might
have trying to crack the chest of some titanium laced samurai..."Give me
the Jaws of Life STAT!! I need to crack this guy's chest!" Christ, not to
mention CPR...I've known EMTs and such that make their first compression
extra hard just to break the ribs and be done with it, since it'll happen
nearly every time anyway and it's easier to compress broken ribs and if
you're doing CPR for an extended amount of time, you get tired really
quick...clearly not accepted practice, but these are veterans I'm talking
about.

Sorry, rambling again. But if you can sift out what I was saying in the
above paragraph in particular, I think some EvilGM's might be able to find
a few ideas to punish rampant street sams.

Erik J.

"I don't like Mondays...I wanna shoot the whole day down."
Message no. 14
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Foamed Titanium and Fullerene Bone lacing
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:59:55 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:46 AM 9/14/98 -0700, Adam wrote:
>I don't see this as particularly essence destroying. If we use your
>arguments of expanded capabilities being costlier essence-wise, then
>certainly cybernetic senses, tactical computers, encephalons,
datajacks,
>etc. would be much, much worse. And what would be the rationale for
>bioware? Explain to me, using your rationale, why Muscle Replacement
costs
>essence and Muscle Augmentation doesn't, even though they have the
same
>game effects, except that the non-essence version is actually better.
>Explain why a Cerebral Booster doesn't cost Essence but an Encephalon
does.
>How is it that replacing your heart muscles with synthetic ones costs
no
>essence but getting a compartment in your fingernail does?

- From Cybertechnology, p. 66:
"The adaptability of the aural template seems to explain why mundane
individuals seem to suffer less from bioware than magicians. This
adaptability is inversely related to an individual's ablity to work
magic. If the aural template's fabric is stressed by the workings of
magic, it becomes less adaptable and therefore cannot compensate for
even relatively minor physical deviations cause by bioware."

The general gist of it is, because bioware is based on living tissue,
it's easier to integrate it's aura with your own; only causing aural
template problems if the user is magically active. However, this does
not explain off things like Muscle Augmentation, where a non-living
fiber is woven into the muscles. (Or why Muscle Replacement, which is
based on living tissue, even if it is clonal, costs essence)

You can see why the Dark Lord On High wants to 'fix' bioware,
especially if the Aural Template theory is the one that FASA wants to
be the offical essence theory.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

Further Reading

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