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Message no. 1
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: fof pulling punches, physical/stun damage
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:33:47 +1000 (EST)
As an alternative, negate a point of strength in the
power of an attack for each -1 target no when
converting stun to physical damage. Note favours high
str characters, e.g. troll str 10 uses reach 1 &
negates 3 points of str to have no + 4 target no when
converting stun to physical damage, to now have an
effective melee attack of 7m physical damage as
opposed to 10m stun & +1 reach.

This could also be an alternative to pulling punches
+1 target no. as I don't agree you should be penalised
for pulling your punches, why not use less skill dice
with no +1 penalty (besides IRL If your gonna pull
your punch,chances are the other guy doesn't know this
& intends & will hit you anyway, although if your're
talking about the kung fu style intimidation make the
guy think about his next move before he attempts to
strike you as your faster & better, having killed him
7 times before his chance one, well...), or start at L
damage & every 4 net sucesses stages up level, or
both. (GZ)

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Message no. 2
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: fof pulling punches, physical/stun damage
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 08:47:43 +0000
>From: Robert Ennew <robertennew@*****.com.au>
<Snip™ the first bit>
>This could also be an alternative to pulling punches
>+1 target no. as I don't agree you should be penalised
>for pulling your punches, why not use less skill dice
>with no +1 penalty (besides IRL If your gonna pull
>your punch,chances are the other guy doesn't know this
>& intends & will hit you anyway, although if your're
>talking about the kung fu style intimidation make the
>guy think about his next move before he attempts to
>strike you as your faster & better, having killed him
>7 times before his chance one, well...), or start at L
>damage & every 4 net sucesses stages up level, or
>both. (GZ)

We allow characters to "pull their punches" by rolling any combat pool they
choose against the same target number as the original test, each success
stages the damage for the attack down by one level. This can only be done
using weapons which cause stun damage (in which case the amount of combat
pool is limited to the weapon skill) or with a lethal weapon if the
character has detailed knowledge of metahuman anatomy and called the shot
and spent at least one action aiming (in which case the number of pool dice
is limited to a maximum of HALF the character's Anatomy know skill.)

We started to do this when we first started using dart guns and our combat
bunnies were still killing their target's outright with the dart before the
Narcoject even got into their systems. (we say that a dart gun does no
physical damage, this must be staged to at least light or the chemical
loaded in would not be injected,) as ballistic armour is ineffective but
impact counts double our combat bunnies tended to use lots of dice to ensure
they got enough successes to inject, against body 3 rent-a-cops with no
impact armour that tended to lead to lots of darts penetrating the eye and
injecting direct into the brain, penetrating the trachea and injecting into
the lungs (causing the poor guy to drown in his own bodily fluids) ...etc.

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Message no. 3
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: fof pulling punches, physical/stun damage
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 19:39:24 +0200
From: "Robert Ennew" <robertennew@*****.com.au>
<Snip>
> This could also be an alternative to pulling punches
> +1 target no. as I don't agree you should be penalised
> for pulling your punches, why not use less skill dice
> with no +1 penalty (besides IRL If your gonna pull
> your punch,chances are the other guy doesn't know this
> & intends & will hit you anyway, although if your're
> talking about the kung fu style intimidation make the
> guy think about his next move before he attempts to
> strike you as your faster & better, having killed him
> 7 times before his chance one, well...), or start at L
> damage & every 4 net sucesses stages up level, or
> both. (GZ)

There is one easy solution to pulling your punches: Just choose
to roll less dice in combat. I always let my players roll up to
the skill level in dice, and in addition up to equal amount of
combat pool dice. So if you realy don't want to hurt your target
to much, you just choose not to roll your full skill (and take
the consequenses that follows).

Eays, and no need for special rules.

Lars
Message no. 4
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: fof pulling punches, physical/stun damage
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:40:46 +1000 (EST)
--- Lars Wagner Hansen <l-hansen@*****.tele.dk>
wrote: > From: "Robert Ennew"
<robertennew@*****.com.au>
> <Snip>
> > This could also be an alternative to pulling
> punches
> > +1 target no. as I don't agree you should be
> penalised
> > for pulling your punches, why not use less skill
> dice
> > with no +1 penalty (besides IRL If your gonna pull
> > your punch,chances are the other guy doesn't know
> this
> > & intends & will hit you anyway, although if
> your're
> > talking about the kung fu style intimidation make
> the
> > guy think about his next move before he attempts
> to
> > strike you as your faster & better, having killed
> him
> > 7 times before his chance one, well...), or start
> at L
> > damage & every 4 net sucesses stages up level, or
> > both. (GZ)
>
> There is one easy solution to pulling your punches:
> Just choose
> to roll less dice in combat. I always let my players
> roll up to
> the skill level in dice, and in addition up to equal
> amount of
> combat pool dice. So if you realy don't want to hurt
> your target
> to much, you just choose not to roll your full skill
> (and take
> the consequenses that follows).
>
> Eays, and no need for special rules.
>
> Lars
>

Yes, I agree (I must have forgotten to mention that in
my original post, thanks) (GZ)

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Message no. 5
From: JSB@**************.net (JS Bracher)
Subject: fof pulling punches, physical/stun damage
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 15:06:57 -0700
At 07:39 PM 10/2/2002 +0200, Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:
>...
>
>There is one easy solution to pulling your punches: Just choose
>to roll less dice in combat. I always let my players roll up to
>the skill level in dice, and in addition up to equal amount of
>combat pool dice. So if you realy don't want to hurt your target
>to much, you just choose not to roll your full skill (and take
>the consequenses that follows).
>
>Eays, and no need for special rules.
>
>Lars

IMHO, this is still very artificial. This is a "called shot" or skill issue.

In ranged combat, the shooter is trying to hit a non-critical body
part. Ask the player what body part they are aiming at (and feel free to
roll dice to see what is a good target). Damage is whatever is rolled, but
it's done to the body part in question. If it's a leg shot, worst case is
either the leg is hamburger or an artery was hit and the target is
enthusiastically bleeding out. But that is a function of the weapon. 50
calibers don't do love taps.

For melee, it's a skill issue. Have the player roll as normal, and then
make a skill check to see if they did the damage they wanted. If they
succeed, they did exactly the damage they wanted, otherwise they did no
damage (every to try to hit someone "lightly"? It's easy to just tap
them). If they fumble, roll full damage dice as normal.
Message no. 6
From: mattgbond@********.com (Matthew Bond)
Subject: fof pulling punches, physical/stun damage
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 23:10:04 +0100
JS Bracher wrote:
> At 07:39 PM 10/2/2002 +0200, Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:
>> ...
>>
>> There is one easy solution to pulling your punches: Just choose
>> to roll less dice in combat. I always let my players roll up to
>> the skill level in dice, and in addition up to equal amount of
>> combat pool dice. So if you realy don't want to hurt your target
>> to much, you just choose not to roll your full skill (and take
>> the consequenses that follows).
>>
>> Eays, and no need for special rules.
>>
>> Lars
>
> IMHO, this is still very artificial. This is a "called shot" or
> skill issue.
>
> In ranged combat, the shooter is trying to hit a non-critical body
> part. Ask the player what body part they are aiming at (and feel
> free to roll dice to see what is a good target). Damage is whatever
> is rolled, but it's done to the body part in question. If it's a leg
> shot, worst case is either the leg is hamburger or an artery was hit
> and the target is enthusiastically bleeding out. But that is a
> function of the weapon. 50 calibers don't do love taps.
>
> For melee, it's a skill issue. Have the player roll as normal, and
> then make a skill check to see if they did the damage they wanted.
> If they succeed, they did exactly the damage they wanted, otherwise
> they did no damage (every to try to hit someone "lightly"? It's easy
> to just tap them). If they fumble, roll full damage dice as normal.

Just as an aside, the Cannon Companion rule for pulling punches is to
declare the maximum number of successes you want before rolling. You get
that or the number rolled, whichever is smaller.

Matt
Message no. 7
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: fof pulling punches, physical/stun damage
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 08:38:56 +0000
>From: JS Bracher <JSB@**************.net>
>In ranged combat, the shooter is trying to hit a non-critical body part.
>Ask the player what body part they are aiming at (and feel free to roll
>dice to see what is a good target). Damage is whatever is rolled, but it's
>done to the body part in question. If it's a leg shot, worst case is
>either the leg is hamburger or an artery was hit and the target is
>enthusiastically bleeding out. But that is a function of the weapon. 50
>calibers don't do love taps.

One of my players has a nice solution to this, He's rigged up the expert
system from a medikit to the image link in his eye through his Smartlink and
linked through a pattern recognition program designed to display anatomical
details of the target on top of their image. He uses hand loaded ammunition
and therefore (having fired more than a thousand rounds downrange) has a
good understanding of the bullet's wound dynamics (something else which has
been fed into the mix) because it was a good idea I've allowed it, a simple
called shot (plus standard cover mods and with no staging for calling the
shot) allows him to shoot in non-lethal locations (at least most of the
time.) normally the shot cuts a channel out of the target and they're
otherwise fine but...
Basically we've allowed it because it gives no game mechanics advantage and
imposes penalties on itself and it fits with the character using it.

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Message no. 8
From: Gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: fof pulling punches, physical/stun damage
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 11:30:55 +0200
According to Matthew Bond, on Mon, 07 Oct 2002 the word on the street was...

> Just as an aside, the Cannon Companion rule for pulling punches is to
> declare the maximum number of successes you want before rolling. You get
> that or the number rolled, whichever is smaller.

I must say I like Lars' rule of declaring how many dice you'll use much
better, because it's a bit less predictable.

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Message no. 9
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: fof pulling punches, physical/stun damage
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 10:58:59 +0000
>From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>
>I must say I like Lars' rule of declaring how many dice you'll use much
>better, because it's a bit less predictable.

The problem I have with that is that it suggests that it is better to have a
low skill (if you're not trying to kill people) whereas I believe that the
more skilled you are the more control you have and therefore the more
capable you are of making an attack which won't kill people.
When I was a red belt (8th Kyu) at Ju-Jitsu we were taught our first truly
lethal attack with the words "If you do this wrong you will kill somebody"
(paraphrase). It was a ridge-hand strike to the side of your opponent's
neck, the aim being to strike the carotid artery, forcing a pulse of blood
up into the brain causing it to shut down temporarily... If the strike lands
across the throat however it will collapse the trachea and your opponent
will die unless medical attention is received very quickly (even if it's
only the pen knife and ball-point kind.)

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing...

If you want it slightly less predictable why not use the CC rule but add to
it that after the roll is made and the successes are determined subtract
D6-3 successes...

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Message no. 10
From: mattgbond@********.com (Matthew Bond)
Subject: fof pulling punches, physical/stun damage
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 13:26:25 +0100
Lone Eagle wrote:
>> From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>
>> I must say I like Lars' rule of declaring how many dice you'll use
>> much better, because it's a bit less predictable.
>
> The problem I have with that is that it suggests that it is better to
> have a low skill (if you're not trying to kill people) whereas I
> believe that the more skilled you are the more control you have and
> therefore the more capable you are of making an attack which won't
> kill people. When I was a red belt (8th Kyu) at Ju-Jitsu we were
> taught our first truly lethal attack with the words "If you do this
> wrong you will kill somebody" (paraphrase). It was a ridge-hand
> strike to the side of your opponent's neck, the aim being to strike
> the carotid artery, forcing a pulse of blood up into the brain
> causing it to shut down temporarily... If the strike lands across the
> throat however it will collapse the trachea and your opponent will
> die unless medical attention is received very quickly (even if it's
> only the pen knife and ball-point kind.)
>
> A little knowledge is a dangerous thing...
>
> If you want it slightly less predictable why not use the CC rule but
> add to it that after the roll is made and the successes are
> determined subtract D6-3 successes...

The main drawback I find with punch-pulling is that you leave yourself
open to being hit by the counterattack. I would think that someone
exerciseing the control needed to pull a punch (and, indeed, the fact
that they are trying to pull it) indicates that they are adopting a
fairly defensive posture in the fight, in order to time their punch
rather than going all-out just to hit. It doesn't seem right that it is
easier to hit someone who is pulling their blow.

My suggestion is:

The punch puller allocates how many dice are to be rolled as OFFENSE and
how many as DEFENSE from the total he has from skill and any combat pool
used. Use different coloured dice to distinguish offense and defense
dice. Any successes on the offense dice are used to determine whether
you hit your opponent, and the staging of the wound. Successes on the
defense dice are added to the offense successes to determine whether the
punch puller is hit.

Matt
Message no. 11
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: fof pulling punches, physical/stun damage
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 13:14:49 +0000
>From: "Matthew Bond" <mattgbond@********.com>
<Snip™>
>The main drawback I find with punch-pulling is that you leave yourself
>open to being hit by the counterattack. I would think that someone
>exerciseing the control needed to pull a punch (and, indeed, the fact
>that they are trying to pull it) indicates that they are adopting a
>fairly defensive posture in the fight, in order to time their punch
>rather than going all-out just to hit. It doesn't seem right that it is
>easier to hit someone who is pulling their blow.
>
>My suggestion is:
>
>The punch puller allocates how many dice are to be rolled as OFFENSE and
>how many as DEFENSE from the total he has from skill and any combat pool
>used. Use different coloured dice to distinguish offense and defense
>dice. Any successes on the offense dice are used to determine whether
>you hit your opponent, and the staging of the wound. Successes on the
>defense dice are added to the offense successes to determine whether the
>punch puller is hit.

While I can see your point I'm not sure about your method, it adds an
additional level of complexity to the system which probably isn't a
benefit...
I have to admit that having my own system has to bias my view but...
:-)

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Message no. 12
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: fof pulling punches, physical/stun damage
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 18:35:54 +1000 (EST)
--- Lone Eagle <loneeagle2061@*******.com> wrote: >
>From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>
> >I must say I like Lars' rule of declaring how many
> dice you'll use much
> >better, because it's a bit less predictable.
>
> The problem I have with that is that it suggests
> that it is better to have a
> low skill (if you're not trying to kill people)
> whereas I believe that the
> more skilled you are the more control you have and
> therefore the more
> capable you are of making an attack which won't kill
> people.
> When I was a red belt (8th Kyu) at Ju-Jitsu we were
> taught our first truly
> lethal attack with the words "If you do this wrong
> you will kill somebody"
> (paraphrase). It was a ridge-hand strike to the side
> of your opponent's

Just a little sick humour. I had a ninjitsu instructor
who had absolutely no concept of how to teach, don't
get me wrong he knew his stuff & had very ospicous
documents to back it up, he was just a brute. His
concept was people learned from pain, he did neck
throws on me & all sorts, If I wasn't taken by
surprise I would have been to tense & possible be dead
or in a wheelchair, 1 day he tells me about a military
unit he was training self defence, 1 of them stabbed
him when he asked him how he would possible break it.
he brought me within an inch of my lungs bursting on
me ,so I told him he diserved It when the soldier he
was training stabbed him in the leg. (GZ)

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Message no. 13
From: dam01@***.edu.au (Damion Milliken)
Subject: fof pulling punches, physical/stun damage
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 13:09:44 +1000
Robert Ennew writes:

> As an alternative, negate a point of strength in the power of an attack
> for each -1 target no when converting stun to physical damage. Note favours
> high str characters, e.g. troll str 10 uses reach 1 & negates 3 points of
> str to have no + 4 target no when converting stun to physical damage, to
> now have an effective melee attack of 7m physical damage as opposed to 10m
> stun & +1 reach.

This would probably depend upon whether you consider doing Physical damage
when using Unarmed Combat a matter of technique or a matter of brute force.
If it's the latter, then your rule would be good. If it's the former, ie,
knowing where and when to hit, then the TN modifier is more appropriate.

> This could also be an alternative to pulling punches +1 target no. as I
> don't agree you should be penalised for pulling your punches, why not use
> less skill dice with no +1 penalty

There should be some penalty to pulling a punch. After all, you will not be
attacking as effectively if you're trying to avoid hitting certain spots, or
hitting too hard. Your opponent is still trying to get the best possible
attack in, and your hesitating to use certain blows, hit particular areas,
and landing otherwise soft blows will allow him more opportunities to land a
real blow on you.

Limiting your dice (as Lars suggests) would be a better way of handling it,
except as was pointed out by Matt, that it gives no real benefit to someone
who's very good at unarmed combat, as they do not get to make use of all
their dice.

Matt writes:

> The punch puller allocates how many dice are to be rolled as OFFENSE and
> how many as DEFENSE from the total he has from skill and any combat pool
> used. Use different coloured dice to distinguish offense and defense dice.
> Any successes on the offense dice are used to determine whether you hit
> your opponent, and the staging of the wound. Successes on the defense dice
> are added to the offense successes to determine whether the punch puller is
> hit.

This doesn't give any disadvantage to the punch puller, though. You yourself
admitted that doing so leaves you more open to counterattack, which I agree
makes a lot of sense. It would, perhaps, make sense to apply the +1 TN to
the DEFENSE dice. Or, I might suggest, simply apply a -1 TN to the defender
in such an instance. An attacker busy trying to pull a punch is leaving
himself more open to get slammed. What better way to represent this than to
give the defender a -1 TN?

Rob writes:

> or start at L damage & every 4 net sucesses stages up level

This idea has merit for the doing Physical damage with an Unarmed Combat
attack, I think. Isn't there a CC maneouvre for this?

--
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Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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