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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Force 1 Mask (was: rules question - mask and physical mask)
Date: Thu Feb 14 05:10:01 2002
Rand Ratinac writes:

> Damion, by "average joes", I meant non-shadowrunner or high-level NPC
> characters. 6 or 7 successes (depending on how the rules actually read)
> means that the smartest unenhanced (mentally, that is) metahuman cannot see
> through the spell. The average "average joe", with Intelligence 3, will be
> unable to see through any spell that gets 3 or 4 successes. Which means, on
> average, 6 or 8 dice - not so many if you're putting in spell pool as well.

I still don't see much of a problem. Lets take two examples, one average,
one well above average.

An average magician (Sorcery 3, Intelligence 3, Willpower 3, Magic 6 ->
Spell Pool 4) casts a Force 1 Mask/Invisibility/etc spell. They throw
everything that they can into the spell (7 dice), and only have 4 dice for
drain (being a Force 1 spell, they'll probably be OK). With a TN of 4,
they'll probably get 3 or 4 successes. Resisting this spell is an average
Joe with Intelligence 3. He'll need 2's and will probably get 3. So, on
average, an average magician will fool an average Joe with a Force 1 spell.
Sometimes the caster will get 2 successes, sometimes 5, and sometimes the
average Joe will get 3 successes and see through the spell. Usually he will
be fooled.

However, the same magician could almost never fool an exceptionally alert
individual (Intelligence 6) with the same spell. To do so, the magician
would need to roll all successes or so on all of his dice. Needing 4's this
is possible, but rather unlikely.

However, an exceptional magician (Sorcery 6, Intelligence 6, Willpower 6,
Magic 6 -> Spell Pool 6), will be able to fool this exceptionally alert
individual with about the same chances as the average magician fooling the
average Joe. Such a good spellcaster would be able to fool an Average Joe
pretty much every time, guaranteed.

So, average spellcasters can fool average people, and good spellcasters can
fool good people. Where's the problem, exactly?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Force 1 Mask (was: rules question - mask and physical mask)
Date: Thu Feb 14 06:40:01 2002
<snipt!(TM)>
> I still don't see much of a problem. Lets take two
examples, one average, one well above average.
>
> An average magician (Sorcery 3, Intelligence 3,
Willpower 3, Magic 6 -> Spell Pool 4) casts a Force 1
Mask/Invisibility/etc spell. They throw everything
that they can into the spell (7 dice), and only have 4
dice for drain (being a Force 1 spell, they'll
probably be OK). With a TN of 4, they'll probably get
3 or 4 successes. Resisting this spell is an average
Joe with Intelligence 3. He'll need 2's and will
probably get 3. So, on average, an average magician
will fool an average Joe with a Force 1 spell.
Sometimes the caster will get 2 successes, sometimes
5, and sometimes the average Joe will get 3 successes
and see through the spell. Usually he will be fooled.
>
> However, the same magician could almost never fool
an exceptionally alert individual (Intelligence 6)
with the same spell. To do so, the magician would need
to roll all successes or so on all of his dice.
Needing 4's this is possible, but rather unlikely.
>
> However, an exceptional magician (Sorcery 6,
Intelligence 6, Willpower 6, Magic 6 -> Spell Pool 6),
will be able to fool this exceptionally alert
individual with about the same chances as the average
magician fooling the average Joe. Such a good
spellcaster would be able to fool an Average Joe
pretty much every time, guaranteed.
>
> So, average spellcasters can fool average people,
and good spellcasters can fool good people. Where's
the problem, exactly?
> Damion Milliken

The problem is that they can do so, either with a
Force 1 spell, or a Force 6 spell, or anything in
between. FORCE DOES NOT MATTER IN THIS CONTEXT. That
should never be the case. The Force of a spell should
always be a factor. The higher the Force, the more
powerful and more effective a spell should be.

That's the problem. It's an issue of game balance.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Force 1 Mask (was: rules question - mask and physical mask)
Date: Thu Feb 14 07:40:01 2002
Rand Ratinac writes:

> The problem is that they can do so, either with a
> Force 1 spell, or a Force 6 spell, or anything in
> between. FORCE DOES NOT MATTER IN THIS CONTEXT. That
> should never be the case. The Force of a spell should
> always be a factor. The higher the Force, the more
> powerful and more effective a spell should be.
>
> That's the problem. It's an issue of game balance.

Hmmm. I see what you're getting at. In these examples (average vs average
and such), the equally matched opponents had a fairly good chance of
noticing the illusion (I dunno, 25% - I shouldn't give a number to it, Lars
or some other stats freak^H^H^H^H^H guru is going to jump down my throat
;-)). If the spell was Force 3 or 4, then they would have basically zero
chance (ditto ;-)). So there is still an incentive to have a spell with a
Force above 1. OTOH, there isn't much incentive to have a spell above Force
4, I'd think (unless you've a sucky Sorcery skill, in which case it might be
cheaper Karma wise to get a high Force spell than to boost your Sorcery if
you wanted to fool highly perceptive folks).

I can see what you mean, though. Force is of limited utility. It helps, but
it's really secondary to your Sorcery skill in this circumstance. I guess
this makes up for the fact that your Sorcery skill almost matters not if you
manabolt someone with a high Force manabolt. 1 success with a Force 6 Deadly
damage manabolt, and the odds of anyone surviving are pretty slim. In this
case, you only need a pathetically low Sorcery skill, as you'll only need 1
success.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Force 1 Mask (was: rules question - mask and physical mask)
Date: Thu Feb 14 19:35:00 2002
> Hmmm. I see what you're getting at. In these
examples (average vs average and such), the equally
matched opponents had a fairly good chance of noticing
the illusion (I dunno, 25% - I shouldn't give a number
to it, Lars or some other stats freak^H^H^H^H^H guru
is going to jump down my throat ;-)). If the spell was
Force 3 or 4, then they would have basically zero
chance (ditto ;-)). So there is still an incentive to
have a spell with a Force above 1. OTOH, there isn't
much incentive to have a spell above Force 4, I'd
think (unless you've a sucky Sorcery skill, in which
case it might be cheaper Karma wise to get a high
Force spell than to boost your Sorcery if you wanted
to fool highly perceptive folks).
>
> I can see what you mean, though. Force is of limited
utility. It helps, but it's really secondary to your
Sorcery skill in this circumstance. I guess this makes
up for the fact that your Sorcery skill almost matters
not if you manabolt someone with a high Force
manabolt. 1 success with a Force 6 Deadly damage
manabolt, and the odds of anyone surviving are pretty
slim. In this case, you only need a pathetically low
Sorcery skill, as you'll only need 1 success.
> Damion Milliken

Mmmm...also a point.

I dunno...maybe we accept that some things about the
magic system are simply broken...or maybe we put a
force/success limit on just about everything...or
maybe as GMs we roll heaps of dice and lie to advance
the story. I dunno...although I know which direction I
lean in. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (lance dillon)
Subject: Force 1 Mask (was: rules question - mask and physical mask)
Date: Fri Feb 15 07:50:01 2002
Rand Ratinac wrote:

>
> Mmmm...also a point.
>
> I dunno...maybe we accept that some things about the
> magic system are simply broken...or maybe we put a
> force/success limit on just about everything...or
> maybe as GMs we roll heaps of dice and lie to advance
> the story. I dunno...although I know which direction I
> lean in. :)
>

I might be misremembering something (I'm at work without access to a shadowrun book at
this time), but aren't you limited to only adding as much magic pool dice to a spell as
the force of the spell? That sort of limits the successes right there. A force 6 spell
would get 5 extra dice (from the magic pool) than the force 1 spell.

-rr
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Force 1 Mask (was: rules question - mask and physical mask)
Date: Fri Feb 15 08:10:01 2002
<snipt!(TM)>
> I might be misremembering something (I'm at work
without access to a shadowrun book at this time), but
aren't you limited to only adding as much magic pool
dice to a spell as the force of the spell? That sort
of limits the successes right there. A force 6 spell
would get 5 extra dice (from the magic pool) than the
force 1 spell.
> -rr

You're misremembering, bub. It's as many pool dice as
your sorcery skill - minus anything devoted to spell
defense.

Speaking of which, there was a little controversy at a
recent game I was at. The GM ruled, because of a
particular (vague) wording in the spell defense rules,
that dice to be used for spell defense had to be taken
from your Sorcery skill first, and that you could only
use dice from your spell pool for defense if you'd
already devoted all your Sorcery dice to defense and
wanted to use more. He was eventually talked down to a
one to one exchange; for every Sorcery die you put
into spell defense, you can put one spell pool die in.

Personally, I think you should be able to pick and
choose what you want to use - which, sure, would mean
that you can almost guarantee mage players would use
spell pool for defense first, but I don't see that as
a problem.

Opinions, guys? How do you do this in your games?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
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Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Aristotle)
Subject: Force 1 Mask (was: rules question - mask and physical mask)
Date: Sat Feb 16 14:50:01 2002
[ Posted by: Rand Ratinac]
> Speaking of which, there was a little controversy at a
> recent game I was at. The GM ruled, because of a
> particular (vague) wording in the spell defense rules,
> that dice to be used for spell defense had to be taken
> from your Sorcery skill first, and that you could only
> use dice from your spell pool for defense if you'd
> already devoted all your Sorcery dice to defense and
> wanted to use more. He was eventually talked down to a
> one to one exchange; for every Sorcery die you put
> into spell defense, you can put one spell pool die in.
>
> Personally, I think you should be able to pick and
> choose what you want to use - which, sure, would mean
> that you can almost guarantee mage players would use
> spell pool for defense first, but I don't see that as
> a problem.
>
> Opinions, guys? How do you do this in your games?


The person in my group who regularly plays magic using characters almost
never uses spell defense so I haven't really worried about it. IIRC the
rules are a little ambiguous on the subject. I've heard some folks only
allow Spell Pool to be used, as the way the current rule uses Sorcery sort
of breaks the skill mechanic (I don't think any other rule allows you to
allot dice away from a skill for another task... I could be wrong). The way
your GM interpreted the rule makes total sense, although I don't agree with
it. :) The one-for-one trade off is an acceptable compromise. The only time
this ever came up in my game, I ruled that the first point spent on spell
defense had to come from Sorcery, but any additional points could come from
either Sorcery or Spell Pool (player's choice).


$0.02,
-- Aristotle
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Force 1 Mask (was: rules question - mask and physical mask)
Date: Sat Feb 16 17:30:02 2002
From: "Damion Milliken" <dam01@***.edu.au>
>
> Hmmm. I see what you're getting at. In these examples (average vs average
> and such), the equally matched opponents had a fairly good chance of
> noticing the illusion (I dunno, 25% - I shouldn't give a number to it, Lars
> or some other stats freak^H^H^H^H^H guru is going to jump down my throat
> ;-)).

Nope not 25%, more like... oh boy I realy can't be bothered, since this threat
is way to trivial and boring.

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
--
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--
Main Rule of Usenet: Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to
their level, then beat you with experience.

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