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Message no. 1
From: Gurth <jweste%smtp@******.HZEELAND.NL>
Subject: Force Points
Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 10:35:21 +0200
When designing a character, would you allow a magician to spend Force
Points on spirits? For instance, allow a mage to start with a Force 5
Elemental with 3 services by spending 8 Force Points (5 for the Force
plus 1 per service)?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Gurth + "Ik kom u vrede en geluk brengen." +
+ (jweste%smtp@******.hzeeland.nl) + "MOOI! ZET MAAR IN DE GANG NEER!" +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Message no. 2
From: Bryan Prince <WALAB@******.HH.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Force Points
Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 08:07:48 -0600
I agreee that the PC could use the force points to start the game with
a spirit/elemantal, but if you also make the PC pay for services with
force points, you greatly reduce both the number of initial spells, and
their initial Force. How about allowing the PC to have a number of
services equal to 1/2 his/her Charisma Attribute, if the Force of the
Spirit is less than or equal to the PC's Charisma. If the Force of the
spirit is greater than the PC's Charisma, use 10-Force of spirit. That
should prevent a munchkin from having 3-4 force 10 elementals hanging
round. Or the GM could meet with the PC outside of game play to watch
the rolls...
Just my 0.02=Y= worth...
Bryan Prince
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <jweste%smtp@******.HZEELAND.NL>
Subject: Re: Force Points - Reply
Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 10:07:12 +0200
>I agreee that the PC could use the force points to start the game with
>a spirit/elemantal, but if you also make the PC pay for services with
>force points, you greatly reduce both the number of initial spells, and
>their initial Force.

That's not a problem with the character I was referring to: he's a
conjuring adept. No spells in sight.

>How about allowing the PC to have a number of
>services equal to 1/2 his/her Charisma Attribute, if the Force of the
>Spirit is less than or equal to the PC's Charisma. If the Force of the
>spirit is greater than the PC's Charisma, use 10-Force of spirit. That
>should prevent a munchkin from having 3-4 force 10 elementals hanging
>round. Or the GM could meet with the PC outside of game play to watch
>the rolls...

Sounds OK. I was thinking of simply making a Conjuring test for each
spirit to find the number of services, or using the 1 Force Point = 1
service method, with a maximum number of services equal to the magician's
Conjuring skill.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Gurth + In this bright future +
+ (jweste%smtp@******.hzeeland.nl) + You can't forget your past +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Message no. 4
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Force Points
Date: Mon, 30 May 1994 14:33:32 +1000
Gurth asked:

> When designing a character, would you allow a magician to spend Force
> Points on spirits? For instance, allow a mage to start with a Force 5
> Elemental with 3 services by spending 8 Force Points (5 for the Force
> plus 1 per service)?

I'd let them, but it doesn't sound very bright. If they have the money,
time, and spells, it seems fairer to let them make the attempt before
the character starts (make the necessary dice rolls etc.).

For a Shaman it sounds even stranger. Since they spend no money, and only
require a few seconds, to summon a spirit.

luke
Message no. 5
From: "DiscoTech (Martin Roth)" <roth@****.CCDS.CHARLOTTE.NC.US>
Subject: Force Points
Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 17:05:10 -0400
Sorry about thta last message...
I have a real quiestion now. When you vreate a character, a magik-user,
then he gets a number of force points from the resources attribute. The
Book also says that one can relearn a spell a higher force. Where, if all
the force points origionally were used to learn spells, does the mage get
more force points to learn more spells and to learn spells at a higher force?

Technology Incarnate
DiscoTech
Message no. 6
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Force Points
Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 14:45:00 -0700
>DiscoTech writes:
>Sorry about thta last message...
>I have a real quiestion now. When you vreate a character, a magik-user,
>then he gets a number of force points from the resources attribute. The
>Book also says that one can relearn a spell a higher force. Where,
if all
>the force points origionally were used to learn spells, does the
mage get
>more force points to learn more spells and to learn spells at a
higher force?

When you create a Mage/Shaman/Adept - when
you choose Resources the force points listed with
the money are how many force points you get to
create your first spells (also to lock locks - and some
lenient GM allow you to use them to Initiate *very rare*)

After You start playing the mage you get good karma
for your runs... That good karma can be spent to
buy skills, attributes, lock locks, quicken spells,
anchor spells, and create new spells (all spells created
are created as 1 good Karma / force point of a spell)
if you had a spell at Force 5 and want to create a force
8 version of that same spell it costs 8. (sorry no difference)
*Mages are karma blackholes*

Enjoy
Thanks
Gary
Message no. 7
From: Gregory Reade <readeg@***.GOV>
Subject: Re: Force Points
Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 17:42:29 -0700
>I have a real quiestion now. When you vreate a character, a magik-user,
>then he gets a number of force points from the resources attribute. The
>Book also says that one can relearn a spell a higher force. Where, if all
>the force points origionally were used to learn spells, does the mage get
>more force points to learn more spells and to learn spells at a higher force?

>Technology Incarnate
>DiscoTech


KARMA!

Described in the SRII book....


Gregory
Message no. 8
From: Tim Serpas <wretch@**.COM>
Subject: Re: Force Points
Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 18:09:29 -0500
On Fri, 19 May 1995, Gary Carroll wrote:
> When you create a Mage/Shaman/Adept - when
> you choose Resources the force points listed with
> the money are how many force points you get to
> create your first spells (also to lock locks - and some
> lenient GM allow you to use them to Initiate *very rare*)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What a groovy idea! This could be an excelent way to help out a starting
phys-ad, since they have no need of spells. Perhaps they could use them
for weapon foci, but I'm pretty sure that our GM doesn't allow PAs to
start with those. Of course, a PA wouldn't have too many force points
(A-attributes, B-magic, C-skills, D-resouces {how much? I don't have a main
book}, E-human).


Tim Serpas :Geek Code v.2: GS d- H++>+++ s:- !g p1 auVW a- w+ v+ C+(++++)
BS Physics : U P? !L !3 E---- N++ K++ W M- !V -po+ Y+>++ t+ !5 j+>$
wretch@**.com: R+ G'' tv+>! b+>++ D+ B-- e++>-- u+ h- f+>* r++ n+ y+
Message no. 9
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Force Points
Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 16:47:35 -0700
>On Fri, 19 May 1995, Gary Carroll wrote:
>> When you create a Mage/Shaman/Adept - when
>> you choose Resources the force points listed with
>> the money are how many force points you get to
>> create your first spells (also to lock locks - and some
>> lenient GM allow you to use them to Initiate *very rare*)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Tim replies:
>What a groovy idea! This could be an excelent way to help out a
starting
>phys-ad, since they have no need of spells. Perhaps they could use them
>for weapon foci, but I'm pretty sure that our GM doesn't allow PAs to
>start with those. Of course, a PA wouldn't have too many force points
>(A-attributes, B-magic, C-skills, D-resouces {how much? I don't
have a main
>book}, E-human).

It's is also for bonding Foci...
How do you think those starting archetypes get those
level 2 power foci for or spirit foci to start.

This is the main reason for Adepts to pick a higher resource
level. (for the points to bond a weapon foci and money to buy it)

Thanks Gary.
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Force Points
Date: Sat, 20 May 1995 10:32:49 +0200
>I have a real quiestion now. When you vreate a character, a magik-user,
>then he gets a number of force points from the resources attribute. The
>Book also says that one can relearn a spell a higher force. Where, if all
>the force points origionally were used to learn spells, does the mage get
>more force points to learn more spells and to learn spells at a higher force?

Do you mean after character generation? Because during chargen it's simply
so that you pay a number of Force Points equal to the Force of the spell and
you know it. Once you're in the game, you roll a test, and if it succeeds
you pay Karma equal to the Force in order to learn it. So earn yourself some
Karma if you want to learn more spells.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I found the secret to Jungle, BTW: Don't listen to it :) --Ray Cokes
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 11
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Force Points
Date: Sat, 20 May 1995 14:41:03 +0200
> On Fri, 19 May 1995, Gary Carroll wrote:
> > When you create a Mage/Shaman/Adept - when
> > you choose Resources the force points listed with
> > the money are how many force points you get to
> > create your first spells (also to lock locks - and some
> > lenient GM allow you to use them to Initiate *very rare*)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> What a groovy idea! This could be an excelent way to help out a starting
> phys-ad, since they have no need of spells. Perhaps they could use them
> for weapon foci, but I'm pretty sure that our GM doesn't allow PAs to
> start with those. Of course, a PA wouldn't have too many force points
> (A-attributes, B-magic, C-skills, D-resouces {how much? I don't have a main
> book}, E-human).

The rules allow the bonding of an aproprite focus during character generation.
Any magicaly active character who wishes to do so can use their force points
as a substitute for good karma. OTOH initiation during charcter generation is
totally out of the question.

--
"Tonight, hell sends an Angel bearing gifts"

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++$S++L++$>++++ L++>+++ E--- N+ h*(+)
W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 12
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Force Points
Date: Sat, 20 May 1995 21:00:40 -0400
>>>>> "Martin" == Martin Roth <DiscoTech> writes:

Martin> Where, if all the force points origionally were used to learn
Martin> spells, does the mage get more force points to learn more spells
Martin> and to learn spells at a higher force?

Once a character enters play, the Priority table is ignored. New spells
and already known spells learned at a new Force level are learned by
spending Karma

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox |
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 13
From: Phil Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Subject: Force points
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 14:12:39 +0100
<Comment about buying things with force points>
>> What a groovy idea! This could be an excelent way to help out a starting
>> phys-ad, since they have no need of spells. Perhaps they could use them
>> for weapon foci, but I'm pretty sure that our GM doesn't allow PAs to
>> start with those. Of course, a PA wouldn't have too many force points
>> (A-attributes, B-magic, C-skills, D-resouces {how much? I don't have a main
>> book}, E-human).

No. Only characters able to cast spells actually gain force points.
so physads, conjuring adepts get - NONE, so no initiation, weapon foci
whatever (as if starting physads need help?)

> The rules allow the bonding of an aproprite focus during character gene ration.
> Any magicaly active character who wishes to do so can use their force points
> as a substitute for good karma. OTOH initiation during charcter generation is
> totally out of the question.

I agree initiation at char. gen. should be out of the question for any
character.(force points or not). Especially if by paying force points a
spellcaster can get it when an adept cannot.

Phil
<philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Message no. 14
From: Walter Stim <wstim%avma27@*************.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Force points
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 09:19:50 CDT
><Comment about buying things with force points>
>>> What a groovy idea! This could be an excelent way to help out a starting
>>> phys-ad, since they have no need of spells. Perhaps they could use them
>>> for weapon foci, but I'm pretty sure that our GM doesn't allow PAs to
>>> start with those. Of course, a PA wouldn't have too many force points
>>> (A-attributes, B-magic, C-skills, D-resouces {how much? I don't have a
>>> main book}, E-human).
>
Phil Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK> comments:
>No. Only characters able to cast spells actually gain force points.
>so physads, conjuring adepts get - NONE, so no initiation, weapon foci
>whatever (as if starting physads need help?)

Why shouldn't Adepts be able to use the force points to bond
focuses they can have? You can only get the force points if
your character is magically active. Is this mentioned anywhere
in the rules?
Message no. 15
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Force points
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 08:03:42 -0700
>><Comment about buying things with force points>
>>>> What a groovy idea! This could be an excelent way to
>>>> help out a starting phys-ad, since they have no need
>>>> of spells. Perhaps they could use them for weapon foci.
>
>> Phil Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK> comments:
>> No. Only characters able to cast spells actually gain
>> force points. so physads, conjuring adepts get - NONE,
>> so no initiation, weapon foci whatever (as if starting
>> physads need help?)
>
>Walter responds:
>Why shouldn't Adepts be able to use the force points to bond
>focuses they can have? You can only get the force points if
>your character is magically active. Is this mentioned anywhere
>in the rules?

Correct walter only characters that are magically active can
have force points. But as described Conjuring adepts and
physical adept are both magically active. "think about it"
if a physical adept can astrally perceive that makes him
more than just active :) . So IMHO physical adepts can buy
and bond Weapon Foci and conjuting adepts can buy and
bond Spirit Foci.

otherwise there should be a 6th catageory called Force points
with the 5th being Money. *which some GM's have already done.*

Thanks
Gary.
Message no. 16
From: Matt Hufstetler <gt2778a@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Force points
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 17:24:45 -0400
> <Comment about buying things with force points>
> >> What a groovy idea! This could be an excelent way to help out a starting
> >> phys-ad, since they have no need of spells. Perhaps they could use them
> >> for weapon foci, but I'm pretty sure that our GM doesn't allow PAs to
> >> start with those. Of course, a PA wouldn't have too many force points
> >> (A-attributes, B-magic, C-skills, D-resouces {how much? I don't have a main
> >> book}, E-human).
>
> No. Only characters able to cast spells actually gain force points.
> so physads, conjuring adepts get - NONE, so no initiation, weapon foci
> whatever (as if starting physads need help?)

Since when? BTW, our group may do things differently than most, but, all
you need is a Magic attribute to learn a spell. AND teach it. We had a
PhysAd who went around selling his force 5 ice sheet to people.

Matt 'Comatose Raspberry' Hufstetler
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt2778a
Internet: gt2778a@*****.gatech.edu
Message no. 17
From: Jonathan Hurley <JHURLEY1@****.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Force points
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 19:42:45 -0500
On Mon, 22 May 1995, Matt Hufstetler wrote:
> > No. Only characters able to cast spells actually gain force points.
> > so physads, conjuring adepts get - NONE, so no initiation, weapon foci
> > whatever (as if starting physads need help?)

Physads tend to be a bit light compared to a starting street sam. And I
don't want to start a sam vs. physad arguement. They do different things.

>
> Since when? BTW, our group may do things differently than most, but, all
> you need is a Magic attribute to learn a spell. AND teach it. We had a
> PhysAd who went around selling his force 5 ice sheet to people.

You don't even need a magic attribute to design a spell. You can't teach
it directly, but you could sell the formula. See grimoire.
Message no. 18
From: Matt Hufstetler <gt2778a@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Force points
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 19:55:31 -0400
> On Mon, 22 May 1995, Matt Hufstetler wrote:
> > > No. Only characters able to cast spells actually gain force points.
> > > so physads, conjuring adepts get - NONE, so no initiation, weapon foci
> > > whatever (as if starting physads need help?)
>
> Physads tend to be a bit light compared to a starting street sam. And I
> don't want to start a sam vs. physad arguement. They do different things.
>
> >
> > Since when? BTW, our group may do things differently than most, but, all
> > you need is a Magic attribute to learn a spell. AND teach it. We had a
> > PhysAd who went around selling his force 5 ice sheet to people.
>
> You don't even need a magic attribute to design a spell. You can't teach
> it directly, but you could sell the formula. See grimoire.

That's what I was talking about. Can you imagine how the other PC's
reacted to this.
"But you can't cast it!"
"Yeah, but I can teach it, wanna learn it?"
"How much?"


Matt 'Comatose Raspberry' Hufstetler
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt2778a
Internet: gt2778a@*****.gatech.edu
Message no. 19
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Force points
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 08:48:09 GMT
Matt Hufstetler writes
> >
> > No. Only characters able to cast spells actually gain force points.
> > so physads, conjuring adepts get - NONE, so no initiation, weapon foci
> > whatever (as if starting physads need help?)
>
> Since when? BTW, our group may do things differently than most, but, all
> you need is a Magic attribute to learn a spell. AND teach it. We had a
> PhysAd who went around selling his force 5 ice sheet to people.
>
> Matt 'Comatose Raspberry' Hufstetler

I don't see any reason why a physical adept should not be allowed to
use force points at startup to bond weapon foci, but thats is all as
they are not allowed to use any others (no paying for spell locks you
'claim' someone else put on you, have to wait until after startup for
tricks like that).
Yes, absolutly anyone with a magic theory skill can design spells,
you simply don't have a magic attribute to take off the target number
if a mundane (though physical adepts do). The prices for spell
formula's are in the Fields of fire kit list (they are not in GR2)
though i think the prices quoted are rather low. I think you need to
know a spell in order to teach it to someone (ie be capable of
sorcery and have paid the karma to learn it) though a generous GM
might say that if you wrote the formula you know it well enough to
get the teaching bonus even if you cannot cast it (although not
'vanilla' rules).

The usual reason that phyasds don't have foci at startup is lack of
money, the things are very expensive and most phyads need the 'A' and
'B' priorities for (2 of) attributes adepthood and skills (possibly
race) that give enough money to but foci with.
Message no. 20
From: Phil Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Subject: Force points
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 09:04:56 +0100
Ok, ok I got it wrong <head hung in humiliation>

Having reread it "only magicians get force points" this includes physads.

Hey - its hard to tell where vanilla rules finish and houserules start

Anyway below is the character generation rules I use, pulled from this
list some time ago I believe.

While it is a good system and allows for more variety there is one
small problem. This is with tech/force and the suggestion that
you can lower one and raise the other. It means people are tempted
to rather than choose say skills, then cash, then attributes
at points 8, 6, 4 they can choose skills, adept, cash attributes and
then modify the cash up and the force down they gain more cash and the
magical adept and merely lose a few points in attributes.

any suggestions? I try to limit them to moving tech and force by only
one place but this is not entirely satisfactory, maybe i should
try and make force points a 6th column as someone suggested?

Phil
<Philip.Hayward@***.uk>


--------------------------------------------------------

I was just wondering if everyone out there in list-land uses the basic
character generation system in SR2, or an alternative.

I find the basic system works fine for mundane and magical humans, but
starts to break down a bit for adepts and metahumans (I play with the
optional 'priority C for metahumanity' rule).

At the moment I'm about to start a new group, and was toying with the
following simple extrapolation of the basic system:

Points Attributes Skills Tech/Force
++++++ ++++++++++ ++++++ ++++++++++
8 30 40 1,000,000/50
7 26 34 600,000/40
6 24 30 400,000/35
5 22 26 175,000/30
4 20 24 90,000/25
3 18 22 30,000/20
2 17 20 5,000/15
1 16 18 1,500/10
0 15 17 500/5

Players use this table instead of the standard priorities table in the
rules, and recieve a number of points to spend depending on their
race/magical ability:

Mundane humans - 18 pts
Human Magicians - 12 pts
Human Adepts - 14 pts

Metahumans - 16 pts
Metahuman Magicians - 8 pts
Metahuman Adepts - 10 pts

In addition, a character capable of casting spells can shift the Tech/Force
column in either direction by sacrificing the other amount. For example, a
magician spending 4 points on Tech/Force could have 90,000 and 25, 400,000
and 15, 30,000 and 30 or any other combination.

What do you think? Any obvious flaw that I've missed? Any serious problems
that anyone can see? I know it's not a radical change, but it gives players
a bit more choice and control over their characters stats.

Andy Butcher | "Whether you think you will succeed or not,
PC Gamer Magazine | you are right."
Fiend@*********.co.uk | Henry Ford
Message no. 21
From: ATREIDE - Aymeric RICHARD <arichard@****.IRESTE.FR>
Subject: Re: Force Points
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1993 00:53:33 +0100
Gary Carroll wrote:

> ... lenient GM allow you to use them to Initiate *very rare*)

When I used to use priority rules I considered Force Points to
be like Karma points => usable for foci, spells, initiation, karma pool (yes !)

--
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| ATREIDE | GCS d(++) H--() s !g p*+ au a- !v |
| Aymeric RICHARD - Atreide on IRC | C+(++) UL+ P?>+ L+>++ N+ E- W M-- |
| E-Mail : arichard@****.ireste.fr | Y(+) t+ R+(++) G' !tv b++ D+ u**- |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Message no. 22
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Force points
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 17:04:39 +0200
>No. Only characters able to cast spells actually gain force points.
>so physads, conjuring adepts get - NONE, so no initiation, weapon foci
>whatever (as if starting physads need help?)

I allow starting physads to get weapon foci, if they've got the cash (mine
had only 5000 nuyen, so she couldn't _quite_ afford one :) I don't see any
reason why you should deny Force points to non-spellcasting magicians; I
also allow them to be used to buy elementals or nature spirits with (though
the latter are a bit of a waste of good Force points :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I need an easy friend
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 23
From: Dustin McCraw <dmccraw@*****.AIX.CALPOLY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Force points
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 14:38:19 -0700
In a previous letter, you stated in beatiful words:
>
>><Comment about buying things with force points>
>>>> What a groovy idea! This could be an excelent way to help out a starting
>>>> phys-ad, since they have no need of spells. Perhaps they could use them
>>>> for weapon foci, but I'm pretty sure that our GM doesn't allow PAs to
>>>> start with those. Of course, a PA wouldn't have too many force points
>>>> (A-attributes, B-magic, C-skills, D-resouces {how much? I don't have a
>>>> main book}, E-human).
>>
>Phil Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK> comments:
>>No. Only characters able to cast spells actually gain force points.

One of my players thinking that he could buy physadd stuff with his force
points put an A on resources. This allowed him 50 force points. His
beginning character had some outrageous attributes and skills. Some of them
were in the 10-11 range. I think the idea of allowing force points to buy
phys add skills is not too bad of an idea. I just put the limitation of 5
force points = 1 magic point for buying physad stuff. After I came up with
this rule it rounded out his character a little better. I also think this
helps beef up the character to help it survive with other sammies and the
like. It has turned out to be a good character.


--
???? ????
? ? The key to success is knowledge, ? ?
? now where is that lock....? ?
* Dustin J. McCraw dmccraw@****.calpoly.edu *
Message no. 24
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Force points
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 15:24:41 -0700
In a previous letter, you stated in beatiful words:
>
>><Comment about buying things with force points>
>>>> What a groovy idea! This could be an excelent way
>>>> to help out a starting phys-ad, since they have no
>>>> need of spells. Perhaps they could use them
>>>> for weapon foci, but I'm pretty sure that our GM doesn't
>>>> allow PAs to start with those. Of course, a PA wouldn't
>>>> have too many force points (A-attributes, B-magic,
>>>> C-skills, D-resouces {how much? I don't have a
>>>> main book}, E-human).
>>
>Phil Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK> comments:
>>No. Only characters able to cast spells actually gain force points.

One of my players thinking that he could buy physadd stuff
with his force points put an A on resources. This allowed him
50 force points. His beginning character had some outrageous
attributes and skills. Some of them were in the 10-11 range.
I think the idea of allowing force points to buy phys add skills
is not too bad of an idea. I just put the limitation of 5 force
points=1
magic point for buying physad stuff. After I came up with
this rule it rounded out his character a little better. I also think
this helps beef up the character to help it survive with other
sammies and the like. It has turned out to be a good character.

AHHH.....
That's scary - a possible of 10 xtra MAGIC points wow
Munchkin alert...

If you want to try to let him get xtra magic with his
force points - allow him to join a magic group (only 3 pts)
and them allow him to initiate with those 50 pts...
level 0 initiate 12 pts - no xtra magic points but now
able to use centering.
level 1 initiate 14 pts - xtra magic point
level 2 initiate 16 pts - xtra magic point
total pts 45 - still allowing him to buy and bond a
level 1 weapon focus.

and I can't believe I just said that - even that is
munchkin...

Thanks
Gary.
Message no. 25
From: Tim Serpas <wretch@**.COM>
Subject: Re: Force points
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 17:30:02 -0500
On Tue, 23 May 1995, Dustin McCraw wrote:
> >><Comment about buying things with force points>
> >>>> What a groovy idea! This could be an excelent way to help out a
starting
> >>>> phys-ad, since they have no need of spells. Perhaps they could use
them
> >>>> for weapon foci, but I'm pretty sure that our GM doesn't allow PAs
to
> >>>> start with those. Of course, a PA wouldn't have too many force
points
> >>>> (A-attributes, B-magic, C-skills, D-resouces {how much? I don't
have a
> >>>> main book}, E-human).
> >>
These were my comments^^^so I agree with you in principle...

> I just put the limitation of 5
> force points = 1 magic point for buying physad stuff. After I came up with
> this rule it rounded out his character a little better. I also think this
> helps beef up the character to help it survive with other sammies and the
> like. It has turned out to be a good character.
>

If you'd like a different way to power up your phys-ads, we just cut all
costs for powers in half. You can get diversity gradually, but PAs wind
up being on par with sams. I've been slapped down before for this idea,
so expect little respect for yours. :-/


Tim Serpas :Geek Code v.2: GS d- H++>+++ s:- !g p1 auVW a- w+ v+ C+(++++)
BS Physics : U P? !L !3 E---- N++ K++ W M- !V -po+ Y+>++ t+ !5 j+>$
wretch@**.com: R+ G'' tv+>! b+>++ D+ B-- e++>-- u+ h- f+>* r+ n+ y+
Message no. 26
From: Thomas O Magann Jr <tomjr@****.SFO.COM>
Subject: Re: Force points
Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 01:17:10 PDT
> I just put the limitation of 5
>force points = 1 magic point for buying physad stuff.
Isn't that a bit cheap for initiation?


Thank You for your time,
Thomas O Magann Jr
tomjr@***.com
(or...TMagann@***.com)
Message no. 27
From: Andy Butcher <Fiend@*********.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Force points
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 13:06:24 +0100
Phil wrote:

>Ok, ok I got it wrong <head hung in humiliation>
>
>Having reread it "only magicians get force points" this includes physads.
>
> Hey - its hard to tell where vanilla rules finish and houserules start
>
>Anyway below is the character generation rules I use, pulled from this
>list some time ago I believe.
>
>While it is a good system and allows for more variety there is one
>small problem. This is with tech/force and the suggestion that
>you can lower one and raise the other. It means people are tempted
>to rather than choose say skills, then cash, then attributes
>at points 8, 6, 4 they can choose skills, adept, cash attributes and
>then modify the cash up and the force down they gain more cash and the
>magical adept and merely lose a few points in attributes.
>
>any suggestions? I try to limit them to moving tech and force by only
>one place but this is not entirely satisfactory, maybe i should
>try and make force points a 6th column as someone suggested?

(details of system deleted)

I must admit that when I came up with the new table, I hadn't considered
magically active characters who couldn't cast spells wanting force points.
The simple answer would probably be to restrict the 'shifting' of force/cash
to characters who are capable of casting spells. Other characters can still
use force to bond foci or whatever, but they can't shift the columns like a
spell caster.

Hope this helps,

Andy Butcher | "Whether you think you will succeed
PC Gamer Magazine | or not, you are right."
Fiend@*********.co.uk | Henry Ford
Message no. 28
From: "V.A.L.I.S." <campbellcc@***.HENDRIX.EDU>
Subject: Force points...
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 01:13:02 +0100
Ok, during creation, if a mage wants a lot of force points does he get all
the money that goes along with it? and why do you get 50 force points for
taking an _A_ in resources, when to be a mage you have to assign _A_ to
magic, or does this mean only an adapt can have 50 force points (Which
doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense to me.
Allright, everyone can stop giving me a hard time over my
signature. I am webmaster, and get a lot of people who think I am 1)Jewish,
and 2) a nice girl, that they want to meet and have web/cyber/computer sex
with or something. It got old, real fast... ;-)


Sincerely,

Courtney C. Campbell...
(Male-Agnostic-Heterosexual-American)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
* Courtney C. Campbell *
* Campbellcc@*****.hendrix.edu *
* Http://www.hendrix.edu/homes/stu/campbellcc/ *
* ____| *
* |_|__ "I am not mad. *
* | I am intrested in freedom." *
* -James Douglas Morrison *
*---------------------------------------------------------------------*
* "Remember, no matter where you go, there you are." -Buckaroo Banzai *
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Matter is plastic in the face of mind
-Tractates Cryptica Scriptura
Phillip Kindred Dick/VALIS
Message no. 29
From: Court Schuett <schuett@*****.IVCC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Force points...
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 01:58:40 -0600
On Thu, 2 Jan 1997, V.A.L.I.S. wrote:
> Ok, during creation, if a mage wants a lot of force points does he get all
> the money that goes along with it? and why do you get 50 force points for
> taking an _A_ in resources, when to be a mage you have to assign _A_ to
> magic, or does this mean only an adapt can have 50 force points (Which
> doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense to me.

Well, you could be a sorcery adept. That's only a B is magic. Then you
could put the A in resources. That threw me for a loop for the first time.

Coincidentally, I am also named Courtney, and yes, a male, agnostic,
heterosexual american.
:)
-Court



/* Court Schuett

schuett@*****.ivcc.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I didn't expect to find a salesman drinking coffee this late in the morning.
How long you been here, Joe?

Oh, I don't know, I guess thirty, forty-five minutes maybe. Why do you ask?

You must be making a lot of sales, piling up good income.

Oh... uh... I'm doing all right. I could do better, but... Ohahaha I get it Paul.
Back on that old "Time is Money" kick, right?

Not back on it, Joe, still on it.
-They Might Be Giants
*******************************************************************************/
Message no. 30
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Force points...
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 13:20:02 +0100
V.A.L.I.S. said on 1:13/ 2 Jan 97...

> Ok, during creation, if a mage wants a lot of force points does he get all
> the money that goes along with it?

Yes. You get both the money and all the Force points.

> and why do you get 50 force points for taking an _A_ in resources, when
> to be a mage you have to assign _A_ to magic, or does this mean only an
> adapt can have 50 force points (Which doesn't make a whole hell of a lot
> of sense to me.

If you create an adept, you can take Resources at A; same thing with the
"add to 10" method from the SR Companion (and, incidentally, MechWarrior).
With the standard rules, a full magician cannot have Resources at A,
though.

As for it not making much sense, why not? Adepts have use for Force points
as well, though not all of them can do much with them. Conjuring and
physical adepts, for example, can use these points only to bond foci with;
shamanic and sorcery adepts buy spells with them, like full magicians.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I hate the flu.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 31
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Force points...
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 09:15:02 -0500
> Gurth wrote:
>
>As for it not making much sense, why not? Adepts have use for Force points
>as well, though not all of them can do much with them. Conjuring and
>physical adepts, for example, can use these points only to bond foci with;
>shamanic and sorcery adepts buy spells with them, like full magicians.

Physical Adepts get no force points from resources. I believe the
same is for Conjuring as well since they also can never learn spells, but
I might be wrong for them.


Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal
names more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves,
they answered to another name, because if another discovered their real
name, it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 32
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Force points...
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:04:10 EST
On Thu, 2 Jan 1997 09:15:02 -0500 MC23 <mc23@****.NET> writes:
>> Gurth wrote:
>>
>>As for it not making much sense, why not? Adepts have use for Force
>points
>>as well, though not all of them can do much with them. Conjuring and
>>physical adepts, for example, can use these points only to bond foci
>with;
>>shamanic and sorcery adepts buy spells with them, like full
>magicians.
>
> Physical Adepts get no force points from resources. I believe
>the
>same is for Conjuring as well since they also can never learn spells,
>but
>I might be wrong for them.
>
>
Where are you getting that from? The only distinction I can remember
being made between Physads and other Adepts in relation to force points
was in the points-based system in the Companion...If you've got a
reference, I'd like to hear it. I'd hate to think I'd been giving a
player something for nothing:)

Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage
Message no. 33
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Force points...
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:09:08 +0000
|
|> Gurth wrote:
|>
|>As for it not making much sense, why not? Adepts have use for Force points
|>as well, though not all of them can do much with them. Conjuring and
|>physical adepts, for example, can use these points only to bond foci with;
|>shamanic and sorcery adepts buy spells with them, like full magicians.
|
| Physical Adepts get no force points from resources. I believe the
|same is for Conjuring as well since they also can never learn spells, but
|I might be wrong for them.

I'd let them have the force points....

They can still bond weapon foci y'know.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 34
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Force points...
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 22:52:59 -0500
John E Pederson wrote:
>MC23 <mc23@****.NET> writes:
>> Physical Adepts get no force points from resources. I believe the
>>same is for Conjuring as well since they also can never learn spells,
>>but I might be wrong for them.
>>
>>
>Where are you getting that from? The only distinction I can remember
>being made between Physads and other Adepts in relation to force points
>was in the points-based system in the Companion...If you've got a
>reference, I'd like to hear it. I'd hate to think I'd been giving a
>player something for nothing:)
>
I had to dig into my memory for this one but I have found the
original source. Grimoire first edition p. 107 "Some adepts do not get
spell points at all; they can't cast spells and so do not use spell
points." Not mentioning this in 2nd edition is more of an oversight than
change in policy. I've always ran it this way.

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal
names more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves,
they answered to another name, because if another discovered their real
name, it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 35
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Force points...
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 12:36:09 +0100
MC23 said on 9:15/ 2 Jan 97...

> Physical Adepts get no force points from resources. I believe the
> same is for Conjuring as well since they also can never learn spells, but
> I might be wrong for them.

None of that is specifically stated in any SRII rules I'm aware of. The
Companion suddenly talks about physads using "force points" to buy powers
with, but that's the first occurance of that term for what used to be
called "magic points." I have always allowed physads and conjuring adepts
to buy foci from their resources money, and bond them with the force
points. (It doesn't matter here that I've only had one physad and no
conjuring adepts in the games I've GMed :)

BTW, I also allow magician characters to buy spirits from their Force
points.

> Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal
> names more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves,
> they answered to another name, because if another discovered their real
> name, it could be used against them.

Maybe it'd be helpful if you would explain what that has to do with
physads getting force points at character creation...?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Suppress it if you can.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 36
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Force points...
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 03:52:28 -0800
On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, Gurth wrote:

> MC23 said on 9:15/ 2 Jan 97...
>
> > Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal
> > names more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves,
> > they answered to another name, because if another discovered their real
> > name, it could be used against them.
>
> Maybe it'd be helpful if you would explain what that has to do with
> physads getting force points at character creation...?
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
>

I think it's a very well disguised part of his sig..

~Tim
Message no. 37
From: Karolusb@***.COM
Subject: Re: Force points...
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 08:58:00 -0500
MC23 wrote:

> I had to dig into my memory for this one but I have found the
> original source. Grimoire first edition p. 107 "Some adepts do not get
> spell points at all; they can't cast spells and so do not use spell
> points." Not mentioning this in 2nd edition is more of an oversight than
> change in policy. I've always ran it this way.
>

In the 1st ed. mages didn't pay force points for foci, since they do now it
appears like a change in policy, albeit an improperly stated one.
Message no. 38
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Force points...
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:36:59 -0500
Gurth wrote

>MC23 said on 9:15/ 2 Jan 97...
>
>> Physical Adepts get no force points from resources. I believe the
>> same is for Conjuring as well since they also can never learn spells, but
>> I might be wrong for them.
>
>None of that is specifically stated in any SRII rules I'm aware of.
In Grimoire first edition in was in the section for changing 1st
edition force points to adjust to there being adepts which were added to
the system in that book. 2nd edition already changed force points
accordingly so that is why I said it was more likely an oversight. FASA
to date still makes such small ommissions like this so it's not unusual.
>The Companion suddenly talks about physads using "force points" to buy
powers
>with, but that's the first occurance of that term for what used to be
>called "magic points."
I've already ranted on this subject elsewhere so here's my quick
summary of the companion. We all know FASA's sourcebooks have optional
rules that we have all decided whether or not belong in our games. FASA
has on the other hand consistantly emphasized that the companion os
purely optional to a degree far beyond their other books. This is a
subtle warning right there that I think even they want to distance
themselves from it. To put it bluntly I feel that the companion is at
best an amatuerist fanzine quality book that requires extensive rewriting
to get something playable out of it.
As far as they saying you can buy forcepoints to bond with, their
whole point based system is out of whack and a lot of their other rules
are for munchkins, period.
>I have always allowed physads and conjuring adepts
>to buy foci from their resources money, and bond them with the force
>points. (It doesn't matter here that I've only had one physad and no
>conjuring adepts in the games I've GMed :)
There is a radical power shift there, and I have played with a lot
of physads. Physads are supposed to start out underpowered compared to
the others to make up for the power they can gain from iniating. Letting
them take resources A to bond with a really big weapon focus radically
changes this balance. If it doesn't effect your game fine, but I think
that can be exploited to an unhealthy degree.
>
>BTW, I also allow magician characters to buy spirits from their Force
>points.
If they get force points to begin with no problem. I considered
making a mage with an ally spirit to begin with once, I just lost
interest it.
>
>> Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal
>> names more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves,
>> they answered to another name, because if another discovered their real
>> name, it could be used against them.
>
>Maybe it'd be helpful if you would explain what that has to do with
>physads getting force points at character creation...?
It's my sig. Do I need to explain further? B>]#



Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal
names more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves,
they answered to another name, because if another discovered their real
name, it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 39
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Force points...
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:52:25 +0000
|>Maybe it'd be helpful if you would explain what that has to do with
|>physads getting force points at character creation...?
| It's my sig. Do I need to explain further? B>]#

Well, it's traditional to have some sort of ".sig separator" to help
identify it as a .sig....

The identifier should be '-- ' <two dashes and a space>

Some mailers are configured so that they automatically detect this
separator, and remove the .sig from quoted text.....

Use it..... (If nessecary, add it to the beginning of your .sig.)

It'll avoid confusion.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 40
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Force points...
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 12:03:08 -0500
Spike scolded
mc

MC23 said,
>|>Maybe it'd be helpful if you would explain what that has to do with
>|>physads getting force points at character creation...?
>| It's my sig. Do I need to explain further? B>]#
>
>Well, it's traditional to have some sort of ".sig separator" to help
>identify it as a .sig....

I would never claim to be traditional. It goes against my grain.
>
>The identifier should be '-- ' <two dashes and a space>
>
>Some mailers are configured so that they automatically detect this
>separator, and remove the .sig from quoted text.....
>
>Use it..... (If nessecary, add it to the beginning of your .sig.)

Excuse me?

>
>It'll avoid confusion.

I don't like it for aesthetic reasons. If you know me you understand
it. I you don't then I can't help you. I do have that option for my
mailer I just don'y use it. I'd rather use blank space when I really
think about it. I can disable my sig as well selectively as well if I so
choice. Any way, I don't care to start a thread on who should do what
with mailers.



Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal
names more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves,
they answered to another name, because if another discovered their real
name, it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 41
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Force points...
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 12:04:06 -0500
>Subject: Re: Force points...
>Sent: 1/3/97 8:58 AM
>Received: 1/3/97 11:09 AM
>From: Karolusb@***.com
>Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion, SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
>To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
>
>MC23 wrote:
>
>> I had to dig into my memory for this one but I have found the
>> original source. Grimoire first edition p. 107 "Some adepts do not get
>> spell points at all; they can't cast spells and so do not use spell
>> points." Not mentioning this in 2nd edition is more of an oversight than
>> change in policy. I've always ran it this way.
>>
>
>In the 1st ed. mages didn't pay force points for foci, since they do now it
>appears like a change in policy, albeit an improperly stated one.
>
As I said elsewhere, the section it came from was for adjusting
force points from resources to adjust for the st the time newly added
adepts. 2nd edition alredy adjusted force points so that section was no
longer needed, hence an oversight. <sigh>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal
names more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves,
they answered to another name, because if another discovered their real
name, it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 42
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Force points...
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 17:27:22 +0000
|
|Spike scolded

Advised, not scolded....

|mc
|
|MC23 said,
|>|>Maybe it'd be helpful if you would explain what that has to do with
|>|>physads getting force points at character creation...?
|>| It's my sig. Do I need to explain further? B>]#
|>
|>Well, it's traditional to have some sort of ".sig separator" to help
|>identify it as a .sig....
|
| I would never claim to be traditional. It goes against my grain.

How about being helpfull then?

|>The identifier should be '-- ' <two dashes and a space>
|>
|>Some mailers are configured so that they automatically detect this
|>separator, and remove the .sig from quoted text.....
|>
|>Use it..... (If nessecary, add it to the beginning of your .sig.)
|
| Excuse me?

As I said, SOME MAILERS... If you were saying the Excuse me? for the bit in
brackets, then I said that in case your mailer DIDN'T have the .sig
seperator option.....

|>
|>It'll avoid confusion.
|
| I don't like it for aesthetic reasons.

What aesthetic reasons would they be then?

If you know me you understand
|it. I you don't then I can't help you.

Eh?
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 43
From: Steve Collins <steve_collins@********.ALEWIFE.KODAK.COM>
Subject: Re: Force points...
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 12:34:08 U
Mail*Link® SMTP RE>>Force points...

> There is a radical power shift there, and I have played with a lot
>of physads. Physads are supposed to start out underpowered compared to
>the others to make up for the power they can gain from iniating. Letting
>them take resources A to bond with a really big weapon focus radically
>changes this balance. If it doesn't effect your game fine, but I think
>that can be exploited to an unhealthy degree.

How is the power a Phys-ad gains comparable to the power a mundane Sammie =
gains by spending the same ammount of karma. The cost to initiate 1 grade =
with the help of a group is about the same as to cost to raise 1 general =
skill to a level equal to what the Phys-ad's magic rating is going to be.

here's an example

Phys-ad

Priorities
A- Atrib B- Magic C- Skills D- Resources E- Race

Sammie

Priorities
A- Atrib B- Resources C- Skills D- Magic E- Race

Anything the Phys-ad can use 6 magic points to buy the sammie can get with =
400KY except for the few powers like Sixth Sense that have no Cyber =
equivilant. They have the same starting stats and skills. Of course the =
Phys-ad only has 5KY to buy any gear with but the Sammy probably won't =
have much more than that after buying his cyber so they start out pretty =
close in abilities. I'll be nice to the Phys-ad and give him the 5 force =
points and let him use it to join a magical group from the start.Now the =
Phys-ad is probably going to want to save most of the ordeals he can use =
until higher grades of initiation or else grade 8 will end up costing =
about 30 Karma so to get to grade 1 and his first new ability is gonna =
cost him about 26 karma. For the same Karma depending on exactly how he =
distributed them the Sammie can get all but 1 of his Atributes to 6 and =
guess which one that will be. 26 Karma should be between 2 and 4 runs =
depending on how liberal the Gm is with giving it out and that should be =
in the vicinity of 20 and 100KY earned depending on how cash poor the Gm =
makes the game This is not really enough for a new piece of Cyber for =
Sammie unless he wants something minor like an Eye Enhancement or more =
Headware Memory. and it does let the Phys-ad get caught up in the gear =
Dept. Now at this point what does the Sammie have to spend his Karma on, =
raising skills. Assuming that he only bothers raising concentrations and =
specializations not general skills then he will get an additional 1 to 2 =
skill points for every initiation the Phys-ad does plus he will be saving =
up his money for new cyberwear and biowear to equal most of the Phys-ad's =
new abilities.

I think it's pretty clear that a Phys-ad will never be as "powerful" as a =
well constructed Cyberjock. Where they can excell however is in more =
subtle fields such as stealth, unarmed combat, and armed combat. =
especially if they get access to a weapon Foci. Twice now I have had =
players generate Phys-ads who took 1MY to start and got a force 6 dikoted =
Katana Focus and then purchased extra dice in armed combat. They were =
unbeatable in 1 on 1 combat with that but they were not by any streatch =
the deadliest characters in the group. That honor always went to the =
Street sammie who had Wired 2, Orthoskin 2, Titanium Bone Lacing, Enhanced =
Articulation, and a Smartlink. And by the time the Phys-ads had initiated =
a few grades these guys had firearms skills of 10 - 12 to stay ahead of =
the game.
Message no. 44
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Force points...
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 15:25:12 EST
On Thu, 2 Jan 1997 22:52:59 -0500 MC23 <mc23@****.NET> writes:
>John E Pederson wrote:
>>MC23 <mc23@****.NET> writes:
>>> Physical Adepts get no force points from resources. I believe
>the
>>>same is for Conjuring as well since they also can never learn
>spells,
>>>but I might be wrong for them.
>>>
>>>
>>Where are you getting that from? The only distinction I can remember
>>being made between Physads and other Adepts in relation to force
>points
>>was in the points-based system in the Companion...If you've got a
>>reference, I'd like to hear it. I'd hate to think I'd been giving a
>>player something for nothing:)
>>
> I had to dig into my memory for this one but I have found the
>original source. Grimoire first edition p. 107 "Some adepts do not
>get
>spell points at all; they can't cast spells and so do not use spell
>points." Not mentioning this in 2nd edition is more of an oversight
>than
>change in policy. I've always ran it this way.

Muchas gracias:) One of the players ahs the Grimoire I, When I get a
chance I'll talk the whole thingover with the entire group.
>
Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage
Message no. 45
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Force points...
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 02:53:10 -0500
Steve Collins puts forth:
>I think it's pretty clear that a Phys-ad will never be as "powerful" as a
>well constructed Cyberjock. Where they can excell however is in more
>subtle fields such as stealth, unarmed combat, and armed combat.
>especially if they get access to a weapon Foci. Twice now I have had
>players generate Phys-ads who took 1MY to start and got a force 6 dikoted
>Katana Focus and then purchased extra dice in armed combat. They were
>unbeatable in 1 on 1 combat with that but they were not by any streatch
>the deadliest characters in the group. That honor always went to the
>Street sammie who had Wired 2, Orthoskin 2, Titanium Bone Lacing, Enhanced
>Articulation, and a Smartlink. And by the time the Phys-ads had initiated
>a few grades these guys had firearms skills of 10 - 12 to stay ahead of
>the game.
>
How many of those cyber muscle boys can get into places that has
scans for cyberware, like say airports or upscale establishments? Or how
many Sammies can get healed right back up real fast by the mage in the
group? How many of the heavily cybered Sams made other people
unconfortable by just their presence? These things have come up alot in
the games I play in. There are subtle advantages as opposed to the
shoot-em up method of comparing the two. Those are the things I tend to
focus on when these two are side by side in a group.
Everything has a cost, and as a GM I feel it is part of my
responsibility to bring them forth. When looking at things this way the
PhysAd has a lot more freedom.
It's all how you play the game.



Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal
names more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves,
they answered to another name, because if another discovered their real
name, it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 46
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Force points...
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 12:28:10 +0100
Tim Cooper said on 3:52/ 3 Jan 97...

> > Maybe it'd be helpful if you would explain what that has to do with
> > physads getting force points at character creation...?
>
> I think it's a very well disguised part of his sig..

I noticed that later on as well, but only because it was tagged to all
MC23's messages :) A clear separator could be useful (like an email
address in front of it)...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Suppress it if you can.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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