Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Karolusb@***.COM
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:11:42 -0500

Message no. 1 Gurth wrote:

> The
> Companion suddenly talks about physads using "force points" to buy powers
> with, but that's the first occurance of that term for what used to be
> called "magic points."

I would have to assume that this either indicates a grave lack of rules
understanding, typo, or sheer insanity. A friend pointed out that it is
again mentioned elsewhere in the book to rule out typo. Under those rules a
physad gets two extra magic points per character creation point he
sacrifices- whats 10 character points to become the most powerful physad in
the world. (I'll be the first to say a physad could use a boost and was
figuring that maybe four or five to one was a good conversion this way, but
certainly not one to two (Creation points/ magic points)

Related note somewhere in the GMing reccomendations it says if mages are too
powerful you might want to disallow initiating with your starting force
points, I should say so! I had never even concieved of allowing that (I once
let a physad who had a strong background start in a magical group with his
initial force points, of course the group was in central China, he was in
Seattle, lot of good it did 'im.)

From:	Court Schuett <schuett@*****.IVCC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 1997 08:39:58 -0600

Message no. 2 On Fri, 3 Jan 1997 Karolusb@***.COM wrote:
> I would have to assume that this either indicates a grave lack of rules
> understanding, typo, or sheer insanity. A friend pointed out that it is
> again mentioned elsewhere in the book to rule out typo. Under those rules a
> physad gets two extra magic points per character creation point he
> sacrifices- whats 10 character points to become the most powerful physad in
> the world. (I'll be the first to say a physad could use a boost and was
> figuring that maybe four or five to one was a good conversion this way, but
> certainly not one to two (Creation points/ magic points)

Hold the phone! That's force points, not magic points, very distinct
difference. Force points are used to buy spells at startup and bond
foci. Magic points, for a phys ad are used to buy phys ad powers. I
assume your'e talking about the character building generator described in
SR Companion, right? Force points for a phys ad are used to bond a
weapon focus. That's about all they are used for. There's no way to
raise your magic rating without initiating. That's the only way. I
agree though phys ads could use a little boost. Maybe your idea of 4-5
BP for MR would be okay. Did you ever play it?

-Court

/* Court Schuett

schuett@*****.ivcc.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I was thinking, that it might do some good
If we robbed the cynics and took all their food
That way what they believe will have taken place
And we can give it people who have some faith
-Jewel
*******************************************************************************/

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 1997 15:25:13 EST

Message no. 3 On Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:11:42 -0500 Karolusb@***.COM writes:
>Gurth wrote:
>
>> The
>> Companion suddenly talks about physads using "force points" to buy
powers
>> with, but that's the first occurance of that term for what used to be
>> called "magic points."
>
>I would have to assume that this either indicates a grave lack of rules
>understanding, typo, or sheer insanity. A friend pointed out that it is
>again mentioned elsewhere in the book to rule out typo. Under those
rules a
>physad gets two extra magic points per character creation point he
>sacrifices- whats 10 character points to become the most powerful physad
in
>the world. (I'll be the first to say a physad could use a boost and was
>figuring that maybe four or five to one was a good conversion this way,
but
>certainly not one to two (Creation points/ magic points)

Actually, I think it stems from the fact that the passage in SRII that
explains purchasing physad abilities is a tad bit unclear...it can be
eaasily misunderstood to say that the abilities are bought with force
points rather than Magic points...I got into a somewhat heated argument
with a player who hadn't read over it real closely and had thus built a
physad with approx 25-30 points of physad abilities...the argument ended
when I read him the section from his own book. It's apparently not that
uncommon a mistake, however.

>Related note somewhere in the GMing reccomendations it says if mages are
too
>powerful you might want to disallow initiating with your starting force
>points, I should say so! I had never even concieved of allowing that (I
once
>let a physad who had a strong background start in a magical group with
his
>initial force points, of course the group was in central China, he was n
>Seattle, lot of good it did 'im.)

Actually, I currently allow magicians to do this, even in the
priority-based system. Two reasons: no magician is going to get above
Grade 0 without Allergies out the yin-yang, and no adept is going to get
above Grade 1 without doing the same thing. I don't allow them to use
Ordeals or Magical Groups to reduce it in Character Creation, so I think
it balances out. Spell-tossers have and edge in metamagic, but don't have
near the number or power of spells to toss (an Sorceror at Grade 1 will
have 5 force points for anything, assuming he took Resources A, and a
mage at Grade 0 and Resources B will only have 17), other adepts
(physads, conjurors, enchanters and astrals) won't have as many force
points to bond foci. And of course, they'll have to have at least
Resources C to initiate at all in Character Creation (barring allergies,
which I put a limit on)

Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage

From:	"Mike Mulvihill (FASA)" <FASAMike@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:17:27 -0500

Message no. 4 In a message dated 1/3/97 02:25:15 PM, Gurth wrote:

> The
> Companion suddenly talks about physads using "force points" to buy powers
> with, but that's the first occurance of that term for what used to be
> called "magic points."

Wow - what a huge mistake. I take the blame for that. I guess you are quoting
p. 21 of the SRComp. Physads ads only get their Magic Rating in points for
purchasing powers. I think the problem came from the fact that their is no
game term for the Magic Rating Points used to purchase adept powers and the
Editorial department thought there was one.

Sorry about that -

Have Fun!
Play Games!
Shamed in Public!

Mike Mulvihill
Shadowrun Line Developer
FASA
www.fasa.com

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:34:10 EST

Message no. 5 On Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:17:27 -0500 "Mike Mulvihill (FASA)"
<FASAMike@***.COM> writes:
>In a message dated 1/3/97 02:25:15 PM, Gurth wrote:
>
>> The
>> Companion suddenly talks about physads using "force points" to buy
powers
>> with, but that's the first occurance of that term for what used to be
>> called "magic points."
>
>Wow - what a huge mistake. I take the blame for that. I guess you are
quoting
>p. 21 of the SRComp. Physads ads only get their Magic Rating in points
for
>purchasing powers. I think the problem came from the fact that their is
no
>game term for the Magic Rating Points used to purchase adept powers and
the
>Editorial department thought there was one.
>
>Sorry about that -
>
So, does that mean that they get 30 force points like everyone else at
creation?

Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Sat, 4 Jan 1997 12:28:10 +0100

Message no. 6 John E Pederson said on 21:34/ 3 Jan 97...

> So, does that mean that they get 30 force points like everyone else at
> creation?

It says they don't on page 21, and also mentions those 30 points can't be
traded in for Building Points. I'd probably rule that those 30 points
_are_ available, but only for buying foci with, and possibly initiation,
but that left-over points can't be traded in.

At least that way physads can start with weapon foci if they really want
to spend they nuyen on them. BTW, I don't think a weapon focus is an
unbalancing factor when bought during character generation; the physad
needs huge resources for one, as even an enchanted butter knife costs
190,000Y...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Suppress it if you can.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Sat, 4 Jan 1997 12:28:10 +0100

Message no. 7 Court Schuett said on 8:39/ 3 Jan 97...

> Hold the phone! That's force points, not magic points, very distinct
> difference. Force points are used to buy spells at startup and bond
> foci. Magic points, for a phys ad are used to buy phys ad powers. I
> assume your'e talking about the character building generator described in
> SR Companion, right?

SR Companion, page 21: "Physical adepts still only receive a number of
Force Points equal to their Magic Rating for buying powers".

> Force points for a phys ad are used to bond a weapon focus. That's
> about all they are used for.

The Companion is a bit confusing about this, because of the (IMHO
unnecessary) use of the words "Force Points." Luckily for us, we're all
smart enough to figure out what it actually means :)

> There's no way to raise your magic rating without initiating. That's
> the only way.

Agreed.

> I agree though phys ads could use a little boost. Maybe your idea of
> 4-5 BP for MR would be okay.

I'd only allow them extra MP if they initiate somehow during character
generation; using Force Points for this may be a bit too much if the
player takes high-priority Resources, though...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Suppress it if you can.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Sat, 4 Jan 1997 12:30:04 -0500

Message no. 8 Gurth wrote:
>
>It says they don't on page 21, and also mentions those 30 points can't be
>traded in for Building Points. I'd probably rule that those 30 points
>_are_ available, but only for buying foci with, and possibly initiation,
>but that left-over points can't be traded in.

Wait here's another concept, those rules are telling you the same
thing I was. If the adept cannot cast spells then he gets no force
points! I'm beginning to feel that if the Guru's of FASA came down from
their mountain (or the nuked crater as the case may be) with a huge
flashing neon sign that tells you that Adepts without spells get no force
points from resoures you would still wonder what they were trying to tell
you.
>
>At least that way physads can start with weapon foci if they really want
>to spend they nuyen on them. BTW, I don't think a weapon focus is an
>unbalancing factor when bought during character generation; the physad
>needs huge resources for one, as even an enchanted butter knife costs
>190,000Y...

Yes, but if you take resources A for the PhysAd what else would he
spend it on! If you use the point based system (I'd advise against it,
but who listens to me?) then the Adept starts with zero force points but
he could then allocate more points to buy the force points to bond with
the weapon.
There now, that wasn't so hard now, was it.
Buying the weapon during creation isn't unbalancing, bonding to it is.
It's all a minmax arguement. For me when that becomes an issue then the
minmax loses and game balance is mantained.

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal
names more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves,
they answered to another name, because if another discovered their real
name, it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Sun, 5 Jan 1997 11:54:45 +0100

Message no. 9 MC23 said on 12:30/ 4 Jan 97...

> Wait here's another concept, those rules are telling you the same
> thing I was. If the adept cannot cast spells then he gets no force
> points!

They say all non-physical adepts get 30 force points, which is something
else...

> I'm beginning to feel that if the Guru's of FASA came down from their
> mountain (or the nuked crater as the case may be) with a huge flashing
> neon sign that tells you that Adepts without spells get no force points
> from resoures you would still wonder what they were trying to tell you.

You're not starting too, are you? This is getting tiring... BTW, I'm not
going to go into this -- this is a case of "you run it that way, I run it
my way" and IMO there is no arguing about that.

> Yes, but if you take resources A for the PhysAd what else would he
> spend it on!

Big cars, a big house, a private jet or helicopter, followers...

> If you use the point based system (I'd advise against it, but who
> listens to me?) then the Adept starts with zero force points but he
> could then allocate more points to buy the force points to bond with the
> weapon.
> There now, that wasn't so hard now, was it.
> Buying the weapon during creation isn't unbalancing, bonding to it is.
> It's all a minmax arguement. For me when that becomes an issue then the
> minmax loses and game balance is mantained.

I don't see what's so terribly unbalancing about bonding a weapon focus
during character generation. Or don't you allow any magicians to bond foci
with their Force Points? If you play it that way, then I can see your
point, but if the only magicians you prevent from bonding a focus are
physads, then IMHO you're making it harder on them than on other PCs.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Suppress it if you can.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Sun, 5 Jan 1997 12:21:44 -0500

Message no. 10 Gurth stated,

>They say all non-physical adepts get 30 force points, which is something
>else...

No, sounds like they forgot about astral adepts and conjuring
andepts, both of which aren't common choices for characters. As I've
already stated, I don't think that much of the quality of the companion,
it is the munchkin book.
>
>> I'm beginning to feel that if the Guru's of FASA came down from their
>> mountain (or the nuked crater as the case may be) with a huge flashing
>> neon sign that tells you that Adepts without spells get no force points
>> from resoures you would still wonder what they were trying to tell you.
>
>You're not starting too, are you? This is getting tiring... BTW, I'm not
>going to go into this -- this is a case of "you run it that way, I run it
>my way" and IMO there is no arguing about that.

But to me there is a difference between a house rules and making it
sound it should be played that way. Of course one could write to FASA
and clear this up but that would only ruin a perfectly good thread. It
would be like avoiding the doctor so you wouldn't have to know you're
ignoring your health because you don't want to change your lifestyle.
>
>> Yes, but if you take resources A for the PhysAd what else would he
>> spend it on!
>
>Big cars, a big house, a private jet or helicopter, followers...

Yeah, right, and Sammies don't buy big guns. You're grasping, just
trying to justify your point by avoiding thr true arguement. Hell, they
could just spend that money and just be a nova hot star of the media or
buy a permanent lifestyle and then never have to Shadowrun in the first
place. Those situations are very unlikely so they are not that valid of
a prediction of where the nuyen goes. Every PhysAd I would make up for
your campaign would use the Force points from an A pick and initiate
twice and get an extra magic point for powers and still get a drek load
of equipment. Open your eyes, please.
>
>> If you use the point based system (I'd advise against it, but who
>> listens to me?) then the Adept starts with zero force points but he
>> could then allocate more points to buy the force points to bond with the
>> weapon.
>> There now, that wasn't so hard now, was it.
>> Buying the weapon during creation isn't unbalancing, bonding to it is.
>> It's all a minmax arguement. For me when that becomes an issue then the
>> minmax loses and game balance is mantained.
>
>I don't see what's so terribly unbalancing about bonding a weapon focus
>during character generation. Or don't you allow any magicians to bond foci
>with their Force Points? If you play it that way, then I can see your
>point, but if the only magicians you prevent from bonding a focus are
>physads, then IMHO you're making it harder on them than on other PCs.

I allow magician who get force points to use them. The arguement
was who gets force points not what they can do with them. You're trying
to make me out to be the big bad GM ogre of Shadowrun by changing the
arguement to how to spend the points. And yes, Adepts are a lot weaker
than full mages. It's a fact of life in the shadowrun world, not just an
cheaper way of playing a spellslinger.
I can only hope your experience comes from no player fully taking
advantage of an A pick in resources for Adepts.
>
>--
>Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> Suppress it if you can.
> -> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Comments like this is why I've argued so long about this. If you
make a boost like this everyone will start to expect you're decision to
be close to company line. If you play a house rule, please clearly state
so. I am not trying to start a flame war, I just don't want others to be
confused just because you play it differently.

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal
names more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves,
they answered to another name, because if another discovered their real
name, it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Sat, 4 Jan 1997 23:56:53 -0800

Message no. 11 MC23 wrote:
>
> Gurth stated,
>
> >They say all non-physical adepts get 30 force points, which is something
> >else...
>
> No, sounds like they forgot about astral adepts and conjuring
> andepts, both of which aren't common choices for characters. As I've
> already stated, I don't think that much of the quality of the companion,
> it is the munchkin book.

Only if you don't read the whole thing, shapeshifters are, and worse
their poorly written (what is the essence of a PC shaeshifter?), but the
point system makes weak characters (with the exception of low cash mages
who are actually more powerful). The blanket statement frankly is just
wrong, though many parts of it are (I don't much like the new
metavarients either)
> >
> >> I'm beginning to feel that if the Guru's of FASA came down from their
> >> mountain (or the nuked crater as the case may be) with a huge flashing
> >> neon sign that tells you that Adepts without spells get no force points
> >> from resoures you would still wonder what they were trying to tell you.
> >
> >You're not starting too, are you? This is getting tiring... BTW, I'm not
> >going to go into this -- this is a case of "you run it that way, I run it
> >my way" and IMO there is no arguing about that.
>
> But to me there is a difference between a house rules and making it
> sound it should be played that way. Of course one could write to FASA
> and clear this up but that would only ruin a perfectly good thread.

Your the one stating your opinion, he's stating the rules, your own
argument applies to you not him.

> Every PhysAd I would make up for
> your campaign would use the Force points from an A pick and initiate
> twice and get an extra magic point for powers and still get a drek load
> of equipment. Open your eyes, please.

Ok old maxim: Prove it. Make this super physad, by getting one extra
magic point, (of course your probably giving up 10 points in attributes
and 4 in skills or some similar combination, of course you'd prob have a
cherry car or something). My gm and I were discussing this right before
this thread started, he made a physad with a power focus and went "look
at this guy hes unstopable" my response was "his highest attribute is a
4 and he only has 4 skills" perhaps you are a better minmaxer then him,
so here it goes- Prove it, make this character show us all the error of
our ways and I at least will bow to your wisdom. (But don't expect to
catch a break if you fail.)

> I allow magician who get force points to use them. The arguement
> was who gets force points not what they can do with them.

I will quote (and don't bother telling me I'm misinterpreting it without
some hard proof)
"In SHADOWRUN, any character with a magic rating is generically
considered a magician."(SR p116)
"Force points are used to purchase magic spells and to acquire foci,
items of magical power used by magicians."(SR p46)

Show me were physads are excluded from this discussion.

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Mon, 6 Jan 1997 12:33:01 +0100

Message no. 12 MC23 said on 12:21/ 5 Jan 97...

(Damn, and I said I wasn't going to do this...)

> No, sounds like they forgot about astral adepts and conjuring
> andepts, both of which aren't common choices for characters. As I've
> already stated, I don't think that much of the quality of the companion,
> it is the munchkin book.

I get the impression that you're the kind of guy who shoots munchkins on
sight, just on general principle. If you don't like the Companion, don't
use it. Sell your copy, for all I care. I happen to like it, apart from
some of the specifics, but generally I think it's a good addition to the
SR line.

> But to me there is a difference between a house rules and making it
> sound it should be played that way. Of course one could write to FASA
> and clear this up but that would only ruin a perfectly good thread. It
> would be like avoiding the doctor so you wouldn't have to know you're
> ignoring your health because you don't want to change your lifestyle.

Who's trying to avoid the doctor? What happened here is that you said that
physads didn't get any Force Points, which you "justify" by quoting the
_first_ edition Grimoire, even though no second edition material mentions
this apart from the Companion. Mike also mentioned that was an error that
crept in because there is no real term for the points physads use to buy
powers with.

> >> Yes, but if you take resources A for the PhysAd what else would he
> >> spend it on!
>
> >Big cars, a big house, a private jet or helicopter, followers...
>
> Yeah, right, and Sammies don't buy big guns. You're grasping, just
> trying to justify your point by avoiding thr true arguement.

I'm not, I'm giving you things anyone could spend money on, including
physads. Just about the only things that do cost a lot of cash that a
physad has a use for, are things like cars and lifestyles. In my
experience, magician characters in SR have a problem when it comes to
money: they have little to spend it on.

> Hell, they could just spend that money and just be a nova hot star of
> the media or buy a permanent lifestyle and then never have to Shadowrun
> in the first place. Those situations are very unlikely so they are not
> that valid of a prediction of where the nuyen goes.

Yeah, and so could a sammy, a decker, a former wage mage, or a tribesman.
Since you're so extremely anti-munchkin, what now gets me wondering is why
you also seem to be against spending a larg amount of your Resources money
on luxury items instead of stuff that makes the character stronger...

> Every PhysAd I would make up for your campaign would use the Force
> points from an A pick and initiate twice and get an extra magic point
> for powers and still get a drek load of equipment. Open your eyes,
> please.

I never said I allow that; I might allow or disallow any of them, mainly
depending on my mood at the time the player generates the character. (Now
I just know you're going to acuse me of favoring some players, or of not
being able to make up my mind, or some shit. See if I care.)

> I allow magician who get force points to use them. The arguement
> was who gets force points not what they can do with them.

And according to the SRII rules, *ALL* magicians get Force Points. A
physad, a conjuring adept, and an astral adept are all magicians, so they
get Force Points. That is my argument, and until you can quote me a rule
(apart from the one on page 21 of the Companion) that says otherwise, I'll
stick to it.

> You're trying to make me out to be the big bad GM ogre of Shadowrun by
> changing the arguement to how to spend the points. And yes, Adepts are
> a lot weaker than full mages. It's a fact of life in the shadowrun
> world, not just an cheaper way of playing a spellslinger.

I'm not trying to make you out to be anything. I'd be the first to let you
play the game whichever way you want... IF you allow me to do the same.
Anyone who gives me a hard time about my _personal_ choices can expect the
same in return.

> > -> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Comments like this is why I've argued so long about this. If you
> make a boost like this everyone will start to expect you're decision to
> be close to company line. If you play a house rule, please clearly state
> so. I am not trying to start a flame war, I just don't want others to be
> confused just because you play it differently.

You want to know why that line is there? Read the message I pasted below.
But first, let me tell you that I think I *clearly* know what are house
rules and what are not, and when I post I make a distinction between
them. If you don't believe me, ask the old-timers of this list about it
(though from previous experience I think they're trying to stay uninvolved
in this).

Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 07:06:05 -0600
Reply-To: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun
<SHADOWRN@***.surfnet.nl> Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun
<SHADOWRN@***.surfnet.nl> From: Keith Johnson <jrsnyder@********.WISC.EDU>
Subject: All Praises To: Multiple recipients of list SHADOWRN
<SHADOWRN@***.surfnet.nl> X-UIDL: 796036022.033

All praises to Damion and Gurth!!!

They have excellent knowledge and perspective!!!

They understand questions, and give interesting advice!!!

I hereby nominate both these people for the title

of Shadowrun Guru...

Keith

who hopes to be a guru too someday

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Suppress it if you can.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Mon, 6 Jan 1997 11:34:37 -0500

Message no. 13 Gurth wrote,

>I get the impression that you're the kind of guy who shoots munchkins on
>sight, just on general principle.
It gives me happy thoughts, but no I don't. I would rather avoid
them. That wasn't easy when I worked in a game store for 8 years. Ah my
wasted youth.

>If you don't like the Companion, don't
>use it. Sell your copy, for all I care. I happen to like it, apart from
>some of the specifics, but generally I think it's a good addition to the
>SR line.
I'm going to gut the hell out of it, but I think its salvagable.
It's just not up to the standards the other books set. I also feel I
shouldn't have to put in as much work in it as the original writers.
>
<snip>
>
>And according to the SRII rules, *ALL* magicians get Force Points. A
>physad, a conjuring adept, and an astral adept are all magicians, so they
>get Force Points. That is my argument, and until you can quote me a rule
>(apart from the one on page 21 of the Companion) that says otherwise, I'll
>stick to it.

"Give me a quote, no I didn't like that one give me another quote."
All right this is going nowhere. This is now personal. Let's settle it,
you and me, right now, right here, 9 rounds of no holds barred Rock'Em
Sock"Em Robots. I'm red.

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal
names more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves,
they answered to another name, because if another discovered their real
name, it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Rook <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Mon, 6 Jan 1997 20:10:18 -0005

Message no. 14 On 6 Jan 97 at 12:33, Gurth wrote:

> > > -> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > Comments like this is why I've argued so long about this. If you
> > make a boost like this everyone will start to expect you're decision to be
> > close to company line. If you play a house rule, please clearly state so.
> > I am not trying to start a flame war, I just don't want others to be
> > confused just because you play it differently.
>
> You want to know why that line is there? Read the message I pasted below. But
> first, let me tell you that I think I *clearly* know what are house rules and
> what are not, and when I post I make a distinction between them. If you don't
> believe me, ask the old-timers of this list about it (though from previous
> experience I think they're trying to stay uninvolved in this).
>
Gurth, if I may make a humble suggestion here, just put this MC23 twit on your
ignore list and forget about him. He made my ignore filter days ago and the
only reason I still see anything of what he says is in the responses you guys
make to him. MC23, in my own personal opinion is arrogant, rude and
condescending. He chooses to be difficult and annoying. That's his
prerogative. However, I'm going to exercise my prerogative and formally request
that he (MC23) be removed from the list. I signed on to this list hoping to
escape the inane flame-wars I encountered in the newsgroups. I came here to
discuss shadowrun and share what I have learned about the game and profit from
the knowledge and experience of others. I did not come here to listen to
someone refuse to add a simple "--" sig separator to their sig for no other
reason than "it isn't aesthetically pleasing" and they don't feel like it. I
didn't sign on to this list to hear someone go on and on about how they are
right and everyone else on the list is wrong. This has, IMHO, gone far enough.
MC23 had made his position on the matter clear and so has everyone else. I
would ask of everyone, rather than respond further to MC23 that you simply
place him on your ignore list and be done with it. If he wants to argue with
himself, so be it, but I will not give him further satisfaction. To you Gurth,
I hope you take solace in the knowledge that you are still respected for both
your knowledge of the game, and for the useful material you have produced and
offered to all of us free of charge. I think your works and achievements
alone speak for themselves, you have no need to defend yourself or justify your
signature.

Sincerely,

--
Rook
(woneal@*******.net)

--- When the Man with the Hoe rises up to judge this world after the Silence of the
centuries, let
him not find me lacking in merit.

From:	David Fallon <dfallon@****.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:21:50 -0800

Message no. 15 > Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 07:06:05 -0600
> Reply-To: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun
> <SHADOWRN@***.surfnet.nl> Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun
> <SHADOWRN@***.surfnet.nl> From: Keith Johnson
<jrsnyder@********.WISC.EDU>
> Subject: All Praises To: Multiple recipients of list SHADOWRN
> <SHADOWRN@***.surfnet.nl> X-UIDL: 796036022.033
>
> All praises to Damion and Gurth!!!

Hail! Hail! <grin>

> They have excellent knowledge and perspective!!!
>
> They understand questions, and give interesting advice!!!
>
> I hereby nominate both these people for the title
>
> of Shadowrun Guru...
>
> Keith
>
> who hopes to be a guru too someday
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

Note the date? That was a while ago. Long before I was on the list. Long
before you were on the list. He knows what he's talking about.

David Fallon

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:03:13 -0700

Message no. 16 Gurth wrote:
|
| If you don't believe me, ask the old-timers of this list about it
| (though from previous experience I think they're trying to stay uninvolved
| in this).

<pats Gurth on back> You sure have been getting the luck of the draw
lately, haven't you :) <hands Gurth a cup of virtual coco with some
virtual marshmellows>

I don't know if I count as an old-timer yet, but I'll back Gurth up.

-David-who's-looking-for-a-new-mailer-cuz-Pegasus-keeps-breaking

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Mon, 6 Jan 1997 11:19:06 -0500

Message no. 17 Charles Baker wrote,

>MC23 wrote:
>
>Your the one stating your opinion, he's stating the rules, your own
>argument applies to you not him.
I quoted my source and defended it twice. Did you not read it?
>
>> Every PhysAd I would make up for
>> your campaign would use the Force points from an A pick and initiate
>> twice and get an extra magic point for powers and still get a drek load
>> of equipment. Open your eyes, please.
>
>Ok old maxim: Prove it. Make this super physad, by getting one extra
>magic point, (of course your probably giving up 10 points in attributes
>and 4 in skills or some similar combination, of course you'd prob have a
>cherry car or something). My gm and I were discussing this right before
>this thread started, he made a physad with a power focus and went "look
>at this guy hes unstopable" my response was "his highest attribute is a
>4 and he only has 4 skills" perhaps you are a better minmaxer then him,
>so here it goes- Prove it, make this character show us all the error of
>our ways and I at least will bow to your wisdom. (But don't expect to
>catch a break if you fail.)

From a similiar thread, I believe some of your games in here may be
considered munchkin from my stand point. I am scared to give such a
presentation only to find out that you guys think its great and not
unbalancing. <shudder>
PhysAd with a power focus? (definately against the rules) With
Characters like that is why I won't bother. Maybe the saving grace from
these comments is that possibly no one has made for use of it.
>
>
>> I allow magician who get force points to use them. The arguement
>> was who gets force points not what they can do with them.
>
>I will quote (and don't bother telling me I'm misinterpreting it without
>some hard proof)
> "In SHADOWRUN, any character with a magic rating is generically
>considered a magician."(SR p116)
> "Force points are used to purchase magic spells and to acquire foci,
>items of magical power used by magicians."(SR p46)
>
>Show me were physads are excluded from this discussion.

OK history lesson as I repeat myself once more. When the first
addition Grimoire came out was when Adepts were added to the system.
Because you could now have a A resource for a magic using character they
had a problem with the old resource levels wheich are now adjusted in the
second edition. In that appendix where they discussed adjusting the
force points down (to their current level) they pointed out Grimoire
first edition page 107' "Adept status should never give the adept an
advantage over a full-blown magician. Some adepts do not get spell points
at all; they can't cast spells and so do not use spell points." The
ommision looks like it came from the fact that the resource changes were
added to the second edition rulebook while glazing over that one
sentence. Don't play dumb and claim ther ommission is a change of policy
because we all know FASA makes ommission and mistakes in their books.
Oncew agian I will put forth that you know fully well that you can just
write FASA and end this thread once and for all. I just think you don't
want to risk the chance of finding out you were playing this wrong.
If there ever was such a change in policy I would rape the hell out
it. Maybe I am just a better MinMaxer than a lot of you. Don't forget
in the rules the cheapest thing to raise with Karma in Shadowrun is
Attributes. Who cares how low they start if in a few weeks they start to
get maxed. (of course I have a house rule to discourage this but I doubt
you guys do.)

MC23 has finished his rant and is off his soapbox to get his morning
coffee.

From:	MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Tue, 7 Jan 1997 13:41:18 -0500

Message no. 18 David Fallon wrote,
>Note the date? That was a while ago. Long before I was on the list. Long
>before you were on the list. He knows what he's talking about.

Ok, I'll defend myself, and please let this thread die. I think
it's resolved to Gurth and I have butted heads with neither of us gaining
anything but argriavtion. let's move on.
In my opinion Gurth can give fast normally fair answers to question but
not often from the existing precedence from the existing sourcebook. I
would expect more from someone claiming to be a Shadowrun Guru whether or
not he was the first one to think so.
I am a firm, believer of the old adage "I may not agree with what
you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
The issue of PhysAds and force points is an issue of game balance to
me and because of that very important. I do not care to have to rant
this much (I'd rather do it once and get it over with) and the other
issues are less unbalanceing than others.
As far as people being upset with me for things like no .sig
seperator. I find such an arguemant silly. I can't take it seriously.
If this offended people (the former Rook) I can't be really upset by it.
That's just too trivial.
This is a medium to exchange ideas for me and maybe make a few
friends secondary. Unfortunatly it seems people here do not like to hear
a conflicting arguement so I guess no one will be left to gain anything
from what I have to say.

MC23 - wondering if he is speaking to an empty room.

From:	"Mike Mulvihill (FASA)" <FASAMike@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:52:47 -0500

Message no. 19 In a message dated 1/4/97 02:46:02 AM, Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage wrote:

<Snip my confession>

>So, does that mean that they get 30 force points like everyone else at
>creation?

No physical adepts DO NOT get any Force Points they only get their Magic
Rating value in points to buy powers as per the rules on p. 125 of SR II.

Have Fun!
Play Games!
4 Days to Jackie Chan's First Strike!
26 Days to Star Wars!
I still can't beleive I let that go by in the Companion....D'oh!

Mike Mulvihill
Shadowrun Line Developer
FASA
www.fasa.com

From:	Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:02:04 +1100

Message no. 20 > Gurth, if I may make a humble suggestion here, just put this MC23 twit on
your
> ignore list and forget about him. He made my ignore filter days ago and the
> only reason I still see anything of what he says is in the responses you guys
> make to him. MC23, in my own personal opinion is arrogant, rude and
> condescending. He chooses to be difficult and annoying. That's his
> prerogative. However, I'm going to exercise my prerogative and formally request
> that he (MC23) be removed from the list. I signed on to this list hoping to
> escape the inane flame-wars I encountered in the newsgroups. I came here to
> discuss shadowrun and share what I have learned about the game and profit from
> the knowledge and experience of others. I did not come here to listen to
> someone refuse to add a simple "--" sig separator to their sig for no other
> reason than "it isn't aesthetically pleasing" and they don't feel like it.
I
> didn't sign on to this list to hear someone go on and on about how they are
> right and everyone else on the list is wrong. This has, IMHO, gone far enough.
> MC23 had made his position on the matter clear and so has everyone else. I
> would ask of everyone, rather than respond further to MC23 that you simply
> place him on your ignore list and be done with it. If he wants to argue with
> himself, so be it, but I will not give him further satisfaction. To you Gurth,
> I hope you take solace in the knowledge that you are still respected for both
> your knowledge of the game, and for the useful material you have produced and
> offered to all of us free of charge. I think your works and achievements
> alone speak for themselves, you have no need to defend yourself or justify your
> signature.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> --
> Rook
> (woneal@*******.net)
>

Using my most useless politician voice - "here here!" (as pertaining the
praise for Gurth, I have no useful emotional information to regurgitate
as to the empathical impact MC23 has had on me, he's only just joined,
give the guy a chance to repent!)

Ignore list? That's going a little too extreme isn't it? Thinking about
though, how do you place someone on an "ignore" list.

Shaman

From:	Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:06:22 -0800

Message no. 21 Mike Mulvihill (FASA) wrote:

>
> No physical adepts DO NOT get any Force Points they only get their Magic
> Rating value in points to buy powers as per the rules on p. 125 of SR II.
>

I hope this is still a point of confusion, we know a physad doesn't buy
his powers with force points (most of us really didn't believe it anyway
we were just making fun of you corp types), but now the question is do
they get points with which to bond a focus (weapon by official
standards). For example if I'm using the point system and a physad gets
no force points then instead I take phys-mage, sell back 10 force points
to make the cost the same, use all my magic to buy physad powers, thus
becoming a physad, and use my remaining 20 force points to bond my
weapon focus. It seems wrong that the only way I can do something
natural is by cheesing a loophole in the rules, but if physads get no
force points it's the only way I can get a weapon focus (without
spending an extra ten points for the appropriate force points).

> 4 Days to Jackie Chan's First Strike!

2 days 14 hours to be precise

From:	Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:15:01 -0500

Message no. 22 Mike Mulvihill (FASA)[SMTP:FASAMike@***.COM] wrote:
>In a message dated 1/4/97 02:46:02 AM, Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage
wrote:
>
><Snip my confession>
>
>>So, does that mean that they get 30 force points like everyone else at
>>creation?
>
>No physical adepts DO NOT get any Force Points they only get their Magic
>Rating value in points to buy powers as per the rules on p. 125 of SR II.

So how do physical adepts bond starting weapon foci, initiate in character
creation, etc? Or are you saying that they cannot do this and are
handicapped even more against other adepts and other character types. I'm
not trying to be grouchy here, but not being able to get foci (either
weapon or centering, p114 Awakenings) ore initiate in character creation
with the Gm's consent, means that they do not have options open to them
that other adepts do. If you say that they cannot "sell back" their force
points for character points, I would be partially appeased, but not much.
At most, this would give them 15 character points, for a grand total of ...
7 extra stat points, 15 extra skill points, or any combo of the two.
Woo-Hoo. Most cyber characters start with more stat/skill points in
cyberware and skill chips. (Reflex enhancement counts.)

Or, they can initiate to .... Grade (0)+(1!) Grade 0. Woo-Hoo. (If
they want a group, sock them with Flaws to balance out the discount in
initiation, without giving them points for them. Or make them pay the extra
5 Build points required to get to Grade 1 out of Flaws, instead of their
base budget.)

Now perhaps I am a little spoiled, having never seen this mythical
uber-munch physad that some people on the list seem to be living in fear
of. And I run a high-magic party. (Of the current group, two of 8 or so
players play characters with some form of magical ability.)

Oh, and if someone does have an uber-munch character of any description,
please send me a copy in private e-mail (unless you feel that the list as a
group would be interested) as I could use some high-power opposition bad
guys to scare my players with.

From a Gateway 2000 manual:
Sucking all the chips off your system board with an industrial strength
wet/dry vac is not covered by your warranty
mailto:jhurley1@************.edu

From:	Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:49:47 +0000

Message no. 23 On 8 Jan 97 at 11:02, Calvin Hsieh wrote:
[snip]
> Ignore list? That's going a little too extreme isn't it? Thinking about
> though, how do you place someone on an "ignore" list.
About the same way as you edit the text you quote - RTFM :-)

Sorry, but I don't know Pine, so can't help you constructivly...

Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+I don't believe in love-+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |I need to forget her face
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ | I see it still|
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de |I don't believe in love |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| it's never worth the |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | pain you feel.|
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary --- Queensryche -+

From:	Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:49:47 +0000

Message no. 24 On 7 Jan 97 at 18:52, Mike Mulvihill (FASA) wrote:
> In a message dated 1/4/97 02:46:02 AM, Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage wrote:
[snip]
> >So, does that mean that they get 30 force points like everyone else at
> >creation?
>
> No physical adepts DO NOT get any Force Points they only get their Magic
> Rating value in points to buy powers as per the rules on p. 125 of SR II.
Errrmm... Mike... what about using the Force Points to bond Weapon Foci
for PhysAds? By the Black Book, p. 46, Force Points are also used "to
aquire foci"... ?

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | 'If we had to buy |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de|you, you wouldn't be|
| \___ __/ | | worth the price.' |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | - E. Weatherwax |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | (T. Pratchett)|
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+

From:	Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 09:42:14 -0500

Message no. 25 MC23[SMTP:mc23@****.NET] wrote:

> If there ever was such a change in policy I would rape the hell out
>it. Maybe I am just a better MinMaxer than a lot of you. Don't forget
>in the rules the cheapest thing to raise with Karma in Shadowrun is
>Attributes. Who cares how low they start if in a few weeks they start to
>get maxed. (of course I have a house rule to discourage this but I doubt
>you guys do.)

Wrong. I have instituted such a policy (of making attributes hard to
raise.)

I have also had a policy of making physical adepts more powerful than
presented.

This includes giving them a -.5 multiplier break on initiation, allowing
geasa to halve the cost of associated powers, and changing the way
increased attributes power works (to a fixed cost per point, much as bonus
skill dice are handled.)

So don't go flaming at me about how I handle physical adepts.

I did allow a starting physical adept have a Force 4 Katana weapons focus.
Guess what? She's still not that great in close combat, her stats are still
only average, AND I can use the Katana as a plot hook when I want.

I find physical adepts as written to be somewhat underpowered. I have
corrected that. Just as I have corrected other problems I have seen in the
SRII game system. You are not the only source of house rules. I do not
appreciate being told I am unable to correct for flaws in the game system.
Having run SR from just before the inception of SRII, nearly continuously
for 5 years (WITH THE SAME CAMPAIGN!!!!!) I am at least aware of most of
the rules. Furthermore, I am aware of what is my house rule, and what is
"canon."

<Deep Breath> OK. Rant off. I apologize for that. (But I don't retract it.)

I guess I don't like being labeled uncreative, especially since I run a lot
of module stuff, because I am slightly lazy.

Anyway.... Watch what you say. Remember, the only way I know you, and you
know me, is by what we post. If your postings have flip comments like the
above one, you are going to get kill-filed by a lot of people.

From a Gateway 2000 manual:
Sucking all the chips off your system board with an industrial strength
wet/dry vac is not covered by your warranty
mailto:jhurley1@******.stevens-tech.edu

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:22:23 +0100

Message no. 26 David Fallon said on 10:21/ 6 Jan 97...

[snip guru message]
> Note the date? That was a while ago. Long before I was on the list. Long
> before you were on the list. He knows what he's talking about.

Not necessarily... Being on this list for over 2 1/2 years doesn't mean
you know all there is to know about SR; I know for a fact that several
people here have been playing SR for longer than I have, for example.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Why are these dudes all dressed up in white?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:49:47 +0000

Message no. 27 On 7 Jan 97 at 13:41, MC23 wrote:
> David Fallon wrote,
> >Note the date? That was a while ago. Long before I was on the list. Long
> >before you were on the list. He knows what he's talking about.
> Ok, I'll defend myself, and please let this thread die. I think
> it's resolved to Gurth and I have butted heads with neither of us gaining
> anything but argriavtion. let's move on.
Ya' wrong, Mr. Letter-Letter-Number-Number of MSN. You personally
attacked one of the most respected members of this list, thus further
supporting his position and making a fool out of yourself.

> In my opinion Gurth can give fast normally fair answers to question but
> not often from the existing precedence from the existing sourcebook. I
> would expect more from someone claiming to be a Shadowrun Guru whether or
> not he was the first one to think so.
At least he makes references, and is willing to help newbies who know
what Netiquette means. This is not true for all newbies, as not all
oldtimers are willing to answer all questions.

> I am a firm, believer of the old adage "I may not agree with what
> you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Ah-ha. To quote from another mail from you:
> "Give me a quote, no I didn't like that one give me another quote."
> All right this is going nowhere.
You _may_ allow others to say what they want, as you decide not to
listen it will do you no harm, right? *sigh*

[snip]
> That's just too trivial.
... Anything I could add to this would be an insult.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+I don't believe in love-+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |I need to forget her face
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ | I see it still|
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de |I don't believe in love |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| it's never worth the |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | pain you feel.|
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary --- Queensryche -+

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:17:34 -0700

Message no. 28 Mike wrote:

>In a message dated 1/4/97 02:46:02 AM, Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage wrote:
>
><Snip my confession>
>
>>So, does that mean that they get 30 force points like everyone else at
>>creation?
>
>No physical adepts DO NOT get any Force Points they only get their Magic
>Rating value in points to buy powers as per the rules on p. 125 of SR II.

That's a double negative, so all physical adepts do get Force Points (are
you sure you're a literature major? ;)

>4 Days to Jackie Chan's First Strike!

Don't forget your step ladder :)

>26 Days to Star Wars!

I am so looking forward to this.

-David

From:	Nightlife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:32:25 -0500

Message no. 29 > >So, does that mean that they get 30 force points like everyone else at
> >creation?
>
> No physical adepts DO NOT get any Force Points they only get their Magic
> Rating value in points to buy powers as per the rules on p. 125 of SR II.
>
> Have Fun!
> Play Games!
> Mike Mulvihill
> Shadowrun Line Developer
> FASA
> www.fasa.com

Thank whatever your favorite supernatural being or power is. A offical
reply to this thread which probably is the only thing that could end it.
Now for something completely different. And it probably a old question
that benn asked before but oh well. What kind of space fleets ie the
shuttle fleet we have today would exist if SR 2055+.

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:22:23 +0100

Message no. 30 Mike Mulvihill (FASA) said on 18:52/ 7 Jan 97...

> No physical adepts DO NOT get any Force Points they only get their Magic
> Rating value in points to buy powers as per the rules on p. 125 of SR II.

And now for the big question: Do physads get Force Points when using the
standard chargen rules? If not, is this a change that happened after you
took over as DLoH, or was it an omission in the original rules?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Why are these dudes all dressed up in white?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:22:23 +0100

Message no. 31 MC23 said on 11:34/ 6 Jan 97...

> "Give me a quote, no I didn't like that one give me another quote."

I said give me a 2nd edition quote. All you do is keep claiming that it
must have been an oversight on FASA's part that they left that line out
of SRII or the 2nd ed Grimoire.

> All right this is going nowhere.

Good, you see it too. I say we call it difference in gaming styles and
leave it at that before this becomes a completely useless flamewar.

> This is now personal. Let's settle it, you and me, right now, right
> here, 9 rounds of no holds barred Rock'Em Sock"Em Robots. I'm red.

I don't have a clue what "rock'em sock'em" robots are, or why you'd want
to be red...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Why are these dudes all dressed up in white?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:54:35 -0800

Message no. 32 MC23 wrote:
>
> Charles Baker wrote,
>
> >MC23 wrote:
> >
> >Your the one stating your opinion, he's stating the rules, your own
> >argument applies to you not him.
> I quoted my source and defended it twice. Did you not read it?

"Players use legend points to improve their characters by increasing
attribute values, adding ranks to talents, buying skills, advancing to a
higher circle, and so on."

Wondering what that has to do with SR2, nothing, but in your mind
anything published by FASA should somehow be relevant to SR2.

>>Prove it, make this character show us all the error of
>>our ways and I at least will bow to your wisdom. (But don't expect to
>>catch a break if you fail.)
>
> From a similiar thread, I believe some of your games in here may be
> considered munchkin from my stand point. I am scared to give such a
> presentation only to find out that you guys think its great and not
> unbalancing. <shudder>

Probably, but claiming to have mystical understandings of things
wouldn't change that, you can't do it because it can't be done.

> PhysAd with a power focus? (definately against the rules) With
> Characters like that is why I won't bother. Maybe the saving grace from
> these comments is that possibly no one has made for use of it.

Very true, but six months ago it was just as against the rules for a
sorcery adept to have astral perception, things change and we discuss
them to see if we like the changes.

> >I will quote (and don't bother telling me I'm misinterpreting it without
> >some hard proof)
> > "In SHADOWRUN, any character with a magic rating is generically
> >considered a magician."(SR p116)
> > "Force points are used to purchase magic spells and to acquire foci,
> >items of magical power used by magicians."(SR p46)
> >
> >Show me were physads are excluded from this discussion.
>
> OK history lesson as I repeat myself once more. When the first
> addition Grimoire came out was when Adepts were added to the system.
> Because you could now have a A resource for a magic using character >they
> had a problem with the old resource levels wheich are now adjusted in >the
> second edition.

History lesson in 1st ed mages didn't use Spell POINTS to bond foci, in
1st ed mages couldn't have more than 300K in cash, things change, now
FORCE points are used to aquire spells and bond foci, your right in 1st
ed. a phys ad wouldn't care if he got spell points he had no use for
them, this has changed.

>In that appendix where they discussed adjusting the
> force points down (to their current level) they pointed out Grimoire
> first edition page 107' "Adept status should never give the adept an
> advantage over a full-blown magician. Some adepts do not get spell points
> at all; they can't cast spells and so do not use spell points."

Your own quotes argue against you.

>The
> ommision looks like it came from the fact that the resource changes were
> added to the second edition rulebook while glazing over that one
> sentence. Don't play dumb and claim ther ommission is a change of policy
> because we all know FASA makes ommission and mistakes in their books.

Policy of how these points were spent changed, therefore I have to
assume that policy of who gets them did as well (especially since the
rules indicate that is so). I have played several physad w/ weapon foci
at start, and all were under 1st ed, you assume a policy change that
physads can no longer start with a weaon focus, the rules disagree.

> Maybe I am just a better MinMaxer than a lot of you. Don't forget
> in the rules the cheapest thing to raise with Karma in Shadowrun is
> Attributes. Who cares how low they start if in a few weeks they start to
> get maxed.

Yes but still raising 10 points in attributes best case scenario cost 30
karma , grade one init costs 22, (any good minmaxer knows that).

(of course I have a house rule to discourage this but I > doubt you guys
do.)

Could of sworn you were against even thinking against the cannon guess
we all can be wrong.

From:	"Mike Mulvihill (FASA)" <FASAMike@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Tue, 7 Jan 1997 19:18:12 -0500

Message no. 33 In a message dated 1/4/97 11:30:12 AM, Gurth wrote:

>It says they don't on page 21, and also mentions those 30 points can't be
>traded in for Building Points. I'd probably rule that those 30 points
>_are_ available, but only for buying foci with, and possibly initiation,
>but that left-over points can't be traded in.
>
>At least that way physads can start with weapon foci if they really want
>to spend they nuyen on them. BTW, I don't think a weapon focus is an
>unbalancing factor when bought during character generation; the physad
>needs huge resources for one, as even an enchanted butter knife costs
>190,000Y...

This is a pretty good idea...I can accept that but not intiation (I like to
leave that to game play). I can see using the "possible" force points to do
this...but I would make a House Rule that only one weapon focus could be
created this way.

Have Fun!
Play Games!

Mike Mulvihill
Shadowrun Line Developer
FASA
www.fasa.com

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:33:17 +0000

Message no. 34 |Ignore list? That's going a little too extreme isn't it? Thinking about
|though, how do you place someone on an "ignore" list.

E-mail filter....
You can set them to save mail to different mailboxes for different things,
thus separating shadowtk from shadowrn from plotd from personal stuff...

You can also set them to auto-delete messages from people you don't want to
know.....

And I agree, it is a bit extreme for a "newbie"....

Give him a break... He's already expressing doubts as to whether shadowrn is
right for him..... Let him find his feet....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Tue, 7 Jan 1997 20:00:52 -0800

Message no. 35 On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Calvin Hsieh wrote:

[snip,snip]

>
> Ignore list? That's going a little too extreme isn't it? Thinking about
> though, how do you place someone on an "ignore" list.
>
> Shaman
>

Um...take a piece of paper, write "Ignore these people:" in big letters
at the top, then write a few names below it, in conventional list
fashion...viola! :)

~Tim

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Tue, 7 Jan 1997 20:46:02 EST

Message no. 36 On Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:52:47 -0500 "Mike Mulvihill (FASA)"
<FASAMike@***.COM> writes:
>In a message dated 1/4/97 02:46:02 AM, Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage
>wrote:
>
><Snip my confession>
>
>>So, does that mean that they get 30 force points like everyone else at
>>creation?
>
>No physical adepts DO NOT get any Force Points they only get their Magic
>Rating value in points to buy powers as per the rules on p. 125 of SR
II.

No Force points whatsoever? Not even for foci?

>Have Fun!
>Play Games!
>4 Days to Jackie Chan's First Strike!
>26 Days to Star Wars!
Woo-hoo!
>I still can't beleive I let that go by in the Companion....D'oh!
It's alright. We'll eventually let you live it down:)

Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage

From:	MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:22:32 -0500

Message no. 37 Gurth wrote,
>MC23 said on 11:34/ 6 Jan 97...
>
>> "Give me a quote, no I didn't like that one give me another quote."
>
>I said give me a 2nd edition quote. All you do is keep claiming that it
>must have been an oversight on FASA's part that they left that line out
>of SRII or the 2nd ed Grimoire.
>
>> All right this is going nowhere.
>
>Good, you see it too. I say we call it difference in gaming styles and
>leave it at that before this becomes a completely useless flamewar.
Agreed! This arguement is dead between us. Now let's hope it
doesn't get revived!
>
>> This is now personal. Let's settle it, you and me, right now, right
>> here, 9 rounds of no holds barred Rock'Em Sock"Em Robots. I'm red.
>
>I don't have a clue what "rock'em sock'em" robots are, or why you'd want
>to be red...

OH NO, Now we have to start a flame war over the existance of
Rock'Em Sock'Em Robots! It's an old (and still existing) toy boxing game.
Two kids (in this case of any age) each controls the two robot's
punching as they try to punch each others head up. There is a click
whirl as this happens as the spring loaded gears release the head to the
raised loser position.
And red cause of that old Space Ork (Warhammer 40k) saying, "cuz red
goez fasta!" not because his head is glued down.
For Rock'Em Sock'Em Robots trivia/reference the bots on MST3k had a
fight once where Tom Servo lost and his head shot up like in the game.
It made me a happy little boy!

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal
names more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves,
they answered to another name, because if another discovered their real
name, it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:49:47 +0000

Message no. 38 On 6 Jan 97 at 11:34, MC23 wrote:
> Gurth wrote,
[snip]
> >And according to the SRII rules, *ALL* magicians get Force Points. A
> >physad, a conjuring adept, and an astral adept are all magicians, so they
> >get Force Points. That is my argument, and until you can quote me a rule
> >(apart from the one on page 21 of the Companion) that says otherwise, I'll
> >stick to it.

> "Give me a quote, no I didn't like that one give me another quote."
> All right this is going nowhere. This is now personal. Let's settle it,
> you and me, right now, right here, 9 rounds of no holds barred Rock'Em
> Sock"Em Robots. I'm red.
1st of all, I'd be careful accusing Gurth of becoming personal. So far
he always stood by the rules, not personal conflict, not even in the
first "Grounding through Quickenings" debate, nor in the "FAB" debate.
He's called Guru for a reason - although I still have problems
imagining a Kaaskopp sitting crossleged in a loincloth on a dike :-)

2nd thing. I think Mike has pointed out the confusion came from a
missing word for the "points" a physad "spends" for his abilities.
These points - let's call them "Magic Points" for the moment - are
_not_ related to Force points, but equal the Magic Attribute. So a
beginning (not initiated, not cybered) character would have six Magic
Points, but as many Forcepoints as the used character creation system
determines (dependend on Resource, if you use the "old" system). "Magic
Points" are available to Physical Adepts and Physical Magicians (as per
Awakenings, pp. 56-57).

Any Magician can use Force Points. Mages, Shamans, Sorc. Adepts, Phys.
Magicians can use them to "buy" spells, any magician can use them to
bond foci the magician can use. For an PhysAd, this would be Weapon
Foci, Conjuring Adepts could use Spirit Foci, etc.

Does that help?
If not, and if you insist, I'll find page references for anything still
unclear (or a line reference to Mike's mail :-), but would prefer not
to, too much work.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | 'Hate is a force of|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| attraction. Hate is|
| \___ __/ | | just love with its|
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* |back turned' - Terry|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me |Pratchett-Masquerade|
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:27:34 EST

Message no. 39 On Tue, 7 Jan 1997 19:18:12 -0500 "Mike Mulvihill (FASA)"
<FASAMike@***.COM> writes:
>In a message dated 1/4/97 11:30:12 AM, Gurth wrote:
>
>>It says they don't on page 21, and also mentions those 30 points can't
be
>>traded in for Building Points. I'd probably rule that those 30 points
>>_are_ available, but only for buying foci with, and possibly
initiation,
>>but that left-over points can't be traded in.
>>
>>At least that way physads can start with weapon foci if they really
want
>>to spend they nuyen on them. BTW, I don't think a weapon focus is an
>>unbalancing factor when bought during character generation; the physad
>>needs huge resources for one, as even an enchanted butter knife costs
>>190,000Y...
>
>This is a pretty good idea...I can accept that but not intiation (I like
to
>leave that to game play). I can see using the "possible" force points to
do
>this...but I would make a House Rule that only one weapon focus could be
>created this way.

So, physads _have_ Force points, but _only_ for bonding foci? I realize
that this is getting pretty tiring, but I like to have everything as
clearly laid out as possible, to make sure I understand completely:)

Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Thu, 9 Jan 1997 14:46:18 +0100

Message no. 40 Mike Mulvihill (FASA) said on 19:18/ 7 Jan 97...

> >It says they don't on page 21, and also mentions those 30 points can't be
> >traded in for Building Points. I'd probably rule that those 30 points
> >_are_ available, but only for buying foci with, and possibly initiation,
> >but that left-over points can't be traded in.
>
> This is a pretty good idea...I can accept that but not intiation (I like to
> leave that to game play). I can see using the "possible" force points to do
> this...but I would make a House Rule that only one weapon focus could be
> created this way.

It's the way I've always played Force Points for physads -- weapon foci
are the only thing they can spend those points on anyway (IMHO, before
someone grabs my throat and says I'm wrong...). I very likely wouldn't
allow initiation either, unless the player could give me a really good
reason for starting the game as an initiate.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Why are these dudes all dressed up in white?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Thu, 9 Jan 1997 14:46:18 +0100

Message no. 41 Sascha Pabst said on 16:49/ 8 Jan 97...

> 1st of all, I'd be careful accusing Gurth of becoming personal. So far
> he always stood by the rules, not personal conflict, not even in the
> first "Grounding through Quickenings" debate, nor in the "FAB"
debate.

Those were the good times... :)

> He's called Guru for a reason - although I still have problems
> imagining a Kaaskopp sitting crossleged in a loincloth on a dike :-)

In this weather?? Are you crazy? (BTW, I don't even like cheese...)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Why are these dudes all dressed up in white?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
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From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:19:02 -0700

Message no. 42 MC23 wrote:
|
| OH NO, Now we have to start a flame war over the existance of
| Rock'Em Sock'Em Robots! It's an old (and still existing) toy boxing game.
| Two kids (in this case of any age) each controls the two robot's
| punching as they try to punch each others head up. There is a click
| whirl as this happens as the spring loaded gears release the head to the
| raised loser position.
| And red cause of that old Space Ork (Warhammer 40k) saying, "cuz red
| goez fasta!" not because his head is glued down.

Oh man, that's an old memory :) And red ruled cuz he was the best!

BTW, nice job of bootstrapping yourself out of the flames :)

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Thu, 9 Jan 1997 14:25:29 -0500

Message no. 43 I know better than to do this but I'll answer this anyway. I'm just a
glutton for punishment.

Charles Baker wrote,
>"Players use legend points to improve their characters by increasing
>attribute values, adding ranks to talents, buying skills, advancing to a
>higher circle, and so on."
>
>Wondering what that has to do with SR2, nothing, but in your mind
>anything published by FASA should somehow be relevant to SR2.
There's a leap of logic I couldn't follow. Would you care to
elaberate.
Renegade Legion made references to Rome never falling in their
background, I don't see where that applies anywhere but to Renegade
Legion.

>Very true, but six months ago it was just as against the rules for a
>sorcery adept to have astral perception, things change and we discuss
>them to see if we like the changes.
Things changed? I guess you are refering for all those in the group
in general. I don't give sorcery adepts true astral perception and take
advantage of spells which give similiar but not exact results for my
sorcerers.
<snip>
>MC23 said,
>>In that appendix where they discussed adjusting the
>> force points down (to their current level) they pointed out Grimoire
>> first edition page 107' "Adept status should never give the adept an
>> advantage over a full-blown magician. Some adepts do not get spell points
>> at all; they can't cast spells and so do not use spell points."
>
>Your own quotes argue against you.
<scratch,scratch> I don't see the contradiction. Looking back, damn
it's been awhile, you're right on no one spending Force points on
anything but spells in the original rules (and I don't care to dig
through my 1st edition Grimoire anymore to see if it changed there).
Since they were still force points then (no change in definition, just
use) my opinion hasn't budged. I don't agree with a non-spelltosser's
getting points to bond with (being a pure source of bonding not taking
awaything from available spells - the primary ability of the
spelltosser). It's just a drawback of being a non-spelltosser.
>
>MC23 >>The
>> ommision looks like it came from the fact that the resource changes were
>> added to the second edition rulebook while glazing over that one
>> sentence. Don't play dumb and claim ther ommission is a change of policy
>> because we all know FASA makes ommission and mistakes in their books.
>
>Policy of how these points were spent changed, therefore I have to
>assume that policy of who gets them did as well
I can see your leap in conculsion, but obviously I don't agree. And you
don't _have to_ since they didn't say that changed as well. This is just
an impasse for us.
>(especially since the rules indicate that is so).
Really? I still must be overlooking it then.
> I have played several physad w/ weapon foci
>at start, and all were under 1st ed, you assume a policy change that
>physads can no longer start with a weaon focus, the rules disagree.
I don't recall the that you could start bonded to a weapon,
especially under first edition and even after you were the one that
pointed out bonding to weapons with force points came out of second
edition. <scratch, scratch> There was no problem buying one though, never
has been. You just had to wait until you had enough Karma to bond to
effectively use it.
>MC23>>
>> Maybe I am just a better MinMaxer than a lot of you. Don't forget
>> in the rules the cheapest thing to raise with Karma in Shadowrun is
>> Attributes. Who cares how low they start if in a few weeks they start to
>> get maxed.
>
>Yes but still raising 10 points in attributes best case scenario cost 30
>karma , grade one init costs 22, (any good minmaxer knows that).
I was originally looking at the fact that after every gaming session
awards I could buy up one Attribute typically. <the sound of numbers
crunching> Then again 910,000 Nuyen of resources as well for that
difference of 8 karma isn't bad, neh?
>
>(of course I have a house rule to discourage this but I > doubt you guys
>do.)
>
>Could of sworn you were against even thinking against the cannon guess
>we all can be wrong.
And so was I for assuming no one on this group had a problem with
increasing stats as well. I like to make sure that the balance I find in
Shadowrun is maintained. As you can tell by now, I'm quite passionate
about it. Maxing all attributes became a standard practice with my group
so we knew we had to limit it.
HOUSERULE:
In my game, the cost to increase attributes costs the new attribute
rating times the number of increase it is. This way the first time is
standard cost, the second is double and third is triple and so on. I
wanted to discourage the use of increasing the attribute several times
without placing a cap on how many times or take what I feel is too far of
a departure from the standard rules. It requires a little extra
bookkeeping but I feel it helps out immensely, obviously.

Oh well, another couple of killfile entries on me. Why do I bother?

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal
names more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves,
they answered to another name, because if another discovered their real
name, it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	"Mike Mulvihill (FASA)" <FASAMike@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Thu, 9 Jan 1997 17:02:17 -0500

Message no. 44 In a message dated 1/8/97 03:51:11 PM, Charles Baker wrote:

>but now the question is do
>they get points with which to bond a focus (weapon by official
>standards). For example if I'm using the point system and a physad gets
>no force points then instead I take phys-mage, sell back 10 force points
>to make the cost the same, use all my magic to buy physad powers, thus
>becoming a physad, and use my remaining 20 force points to bond my
>weapon focus. It seems wrong that the only way I can do something
>natural is by cheesing a loophole in the rules, but if physads get no
>force points it's the only way I can get a weapon focus (without
>spending an extra ten points for the appropriate force points).

Officaially, no they get no force points. But as I wrote to Gurth I think,
it's a good idea for weapon foci and I have no problem with that. At this
point it's a gamemaster call, although I would limit it to a single weapon
foci...not 30 force points worth. I would allow the PA to purchase a weapon
foci (assume he or she has enough for the foci they want) and of course the
nuyen to purchase it. I would not micro-manage the buying and selling of
force points.

Your system seem logical and I printed it out for future pondering by me....

I do draw the line on using force points for starting character
initation...it takes the fun out of intiation. I fall into the sadistic GM
catagory and I just love the Deed Ordeal. Bwahh Haaaahh! Hah!

Have Fun!
Play Games!
Deeds Hurt!

Mike Mulvihill
Shadowrun Line Developer
FASA
www.fasa.com

From:	"Mike Mulvihill (FASA)" <FASAMike@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Thu, 9 Jan 1997 17:07:08 -0500

Message no. 45 In a message dated 1/8/97 04:00:26 PM, Sascha wrote:

>Errrmm... Mike... what about using the Force Points to bond Weapon Foci
>for PhysAds? By the Black Book, p. 46, Force Points are also used "to
>aquire foci"... ?

Originally, this did not include PA's.

Have Fun!
Play Games!
Don't Shoot The Messager!

Mike Mulvihill
Shadowrun Line Developer
FASA
www.fasa.com

From:	Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:46:33 -0800

Message no. 46 MC23 wrote:
>
> I know better than to do this but I'll answer this anyway. I'm just a
> glutton for punishment.

It's easier that way.

>
> Charles Baker wrote,
> >"Players use legend points to improve their characters by increasing
> >attribute values, adding ranks to talents, buying skills, advancing to a
> >higher circle, and so on."
> >
> >Wondering what that has to do with SR2, nothing, but in your mind
> >anything published by FASA should somehow be relevant to SR2.
> There's a leap of logic I couldn't follow. Would you care to
> elaberate.

Merely pointing out that the guy in my group who has the best idea of
how SR2 works is the guy who never played SR1 he always points out our
anchonisms, SR2 isn't SR1, things have changed, SR2 was designed to be
played without SR1, ie you shouldn't need the old books to interpret
things. If a rule isn't explicitly stated as changed, doesn't mean it
isn't frankly if it isn'ty stated that it is the same you must assume it
is changed.

> Things changed?

In the companion for three point you can buy astral perception, they
don't get it free, but now they could possess it, where before they
couldn't have

> <snip>
> >MC23 said,
> >>In that appendix where they discussed adjusting the
> >> force points down (to their current level) they pointed out Grimoire
> >> first edition page 107' "Adept status should never give the adept an
> >> advantage over a full-blown magician. Some adepts do not get spell points
> >> at all; they can't cast spells and so do not use spell points."
> >
> >Your own quotes argue against you.
> <scratch,scratch> I don't see the contradiction. Looking back, damn
> it's been awhile, you're right on no one spending Force points on
> anything but spells in the original rules (and I don't care to dig
> through my 1st edition Grimoire anymore to see if it changed there).
> Since they were still force points then (no change in definition, just
> use) my opinion hasn't budged. I don't agree with a non-spelltosser's
> getting points to bond with (being a pure source of bonding not taking
> awaything from available spells - the primary ability of the
> spelltosser). It's just a drawback of being a non-spelltosser.

Actually it appears you understood the contradiction quite well, you
addressed it as such.

> >
> >MC23 >>The
> >> ommision looks like it came from the fact that the resource changes were
> >> added to the second edition rulebook while glazing over that one
> >> sentence. Don't play dumb and claim ther ommission is a change of policy
> >> because we all know FASA makes ommission and mistakes in their books.
> >
> >Policy of how these points were spent changed, therefore I have to
> >assume that policy of who gets them did as well
> I can see your leap in conculsion, but obviously I don't agree. And you
> don't _have to_ since they didn't say that changed as well. This is just
> an impasse for us.

My point again they don't have to say a thing has changed, if you hadn't
played first ed, what would you believe, well the first ed grim is not
applicable to second ed, and not an appropriate reference.

> I don't recall the that you could start bonded to a weapon,
> especially under first edition and even after you were the one that
> pointed out bonding to weapons with force points came out of second
> edition. <scratch, scratch> There was no problem buying one though, never
> has been. You just had to wait until you had enough Karma to bond to
> effectively use it.

Its been a long time but as I recall if you had a focus at start in
first ed. you were bonded to it, at least thats the way we played.

> <the sound of numbers
> crunching> Then again 910,000 Nuyen of resources as well for that
> difference of 8 karma isn't bad, neh?

Depends on what you can do with the money, limited availability, no use
for cyber, no need for a deck, as I said you probly have a cherry car,
comfy condo etc.

> HOUSERULE:
> In my game, the cost to increase attributes costs the new attribute
> rating times the number of increase it is. This way the first time is
> standard cost, the second is double and third is triple and so on. I
> wanted to discourage the use of increasing the attribute several times
> without placing a cap on how many times or take what I feel is too far of
> a departure from the standard rules. It requires a little extra
> bookkeeping but I feel it helps out immensely, obviously.

Better than how I had done it, probly steal it next time I GM.

And you were right (about us) FASAMike came down from the mountain and
agreed with you and most of us didn't buy it, frankly I have read the
black book and don't believe that that was the intent presented there,
it would take Paul Hume to get me to believe it, and the've had plently
of time to clarify it in errata, or in a nearby book, like the grim,
they didn't and now that the line has a new developer the original
intent has supposedly changed, sorry just don't buy it.

Here's the real point in your game I am guessing I could play a bear
shamen adept with locks and weapon foci, replicating most physad
abilities (if I was a totem that gave both health and detection it would
be even better), and wouldn't be limited form bonding it. As I
mentioned to FASAMike under the point system a physmage converted to
physad would be superior under this ruling (yes I am the king of
minmaxers), and that is ridiculous to me (not that I wouldn't do it to a
GM without enough sense to do something about it.)

From:	Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:49:47 -0800

Message no. 47 Mike Mulvihill (FASA) wrote:
>
> I do draw the line on using force points for starting character
> initation...it takes the fun out of intiation. I fall into the sadistic GM
> catagory and I just love the Deed Ordeal. Bwahh Haaaahh! Hah!

If that defines evil GMing then I guess my summer home is in Hell. :)
(An I'd like to invite whoever started this force point initiation thing
over for a few eternities.)

From:	Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:55:28 -0800

Message no. 48 Mike Mulvihill (FASA) wrote:
>
> In a message dated 1/8/97 04:00:26 PM, Sascha wrote:
>
> >Errrmm... Mike... what about using the Force Points to bond Weapon Foci
> >for PhysAds? By the Black Book, p. 46, Force Points are also used "to
> >aquire foci"... ?
>
> Originally, this did not include PA's.
>

I have never been pointed to the section that excludes PA's.

From:	MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Fri, 10 Jan 1997 00:27:16 -0500

Message no. 49 to Charles Baker (and other interested parties)
First of all I'm elated your responce wasn't the one I was
expecting, thank you. The only quip I would care to say about Mike's
ruling now is maybe nobody (or few of us) bothered to ask before now? It
wasn't even a question here until I started this whole mess. I've
suffered too much from it already.

As for the following.
Charles Baker wrote:
>Here's the real point in your game I am guessing I could play a bear
>shamen adept with locks and weapon foci, replicating most physad
>abilities (if I was a totem that gave both health and detection it would
>be even better), and wouldn't be limited form bonding it. As I
>mentioned to FASAMike under the point system a physmage converted to
>physad would be superior under this ruling (yes I am the king of
>minmaxers), and that is ridiculous to me (not that I wouldn't do it to a
>GM without enough sense to do something about it.)
You missed by near-rants on the companion (I don't like it). ( I
should have noticed ahead of time how much FASA's press releases stressed
that the book was all _optional_ rules.) Here's why the point system
bothered me. It's linear. Now if that ain't a minmaxer's dream I don't
know what is. I was hoping for something with a geometric scale similiar
to what you get out of the Priority picks. Until I see one in that form
(and crunched for a few days or weeks) I won't use it. I haven't been
driven enough to make one of my own so I'll stick with priorities.

The metahuman varients will be the first thing I attempt to balance
out of that book for my use. <grumble> I still don't know why FASA let
them see print as is (none of their attribute mods aren't even balanced
amongst themselves). For a preview of my plans here are my current
thoughts.
Albanism - out. A bonus Attribute (and I would assume maximum
attribute) for that condition? Too many Elric stories people. If you
want a high Willpower, you buy the high Willpower the same as everybody
else.
Night Ones - out. A cross between Nightcrawler (of Marvel's X-Men
fame) and TSR's Drow. I prefer my races derived from mythology.
Dryads - out. I'll just stick with mine being nature spirits.
Satyrs - out. This one is just where I'm being spiteful, I'll admit. I
really liked the Satyr from Paranormal Animals of Europe. I was really
disapointed by the companion not using any of the sentient (or debatable
sentient) existing races. I'm fine with the Minotaur but I felt I had to
draw the line somewhere so I choose against the Satyr ork varient.
Besides I didn't like the visual for them (one of the strong saving
graces for these Varients IMO).
The others will be brought to the standard net +3 Attributes, be the
same metahuman level pick (I use more meta-human), and definately suffer
more preducial reactions. (Ya wanna be a freak, fine.)

- MC23, donning the gloves for metahuman varient surgery -

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Force points and Companion
Date:	Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:08:57 EST

Message no. 50 On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:49:47 -0800 Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
writes:
>Mike Mulvihill (FASA) wrote:
>>
>> I do draw the line on using force points for starting character
>> initation...it takes the fun out of intiation. I fall into the
>sadistic GM
>> catagory and I just love the Deed Ordeal. Bwahh Haaaahh! Hah!
>
>If that defines evil GMing then I guess my summer home is in Hell. :)
>(An I'd like to invite whoever started this force point initiation
>thing
>over for a few eternities.)
>
I dunno. Maybe that was me? I saw it somewhere as a house rule and I
thought it made sense, but I guess it'll probably get dropped soon (yes,
it is a game breaker:)

Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage

Message no. 51 MC23 writes

HOUSERULE:
> In my game, the cost to increase attributes costs the new attribute
> rating times the number of increase it is. This way the first time is
> standard cost, the second is double and third is triple and so on. I
> wanted to discourage the use of increasing the attribute several times
> without placing a cap on how many times or take what I feel is too far of
> a departure from the standard rules. It requires a little extra
> bookkeeping but I feel it helps out immensely, obviously.
>

I have been doing this for a few years now, and mentioned it before
here (though you wouldn't know that having joined recently). As i
keep a copy of the PC's stats on my GM screen anyway (handy reference
for those manabolt TN's :), or secret perception tests etc) i just
put 1 star per increase by them, end problem.

for some reason this rules not that popular but does the job it was
supposed to. note i STRONGLY advise implementing somthing like this
before using points based chracters, atts 2/point startup x1 later,
skills x1 then x2, oh so char points on skills are four times as good
as those on attributes! the system adds up but really is open to
abuse if you don't execise a little GM's discretion, but then most do.

Mark

Message no. 52 John E Pederson wrote:
>
> On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:49:47 -0800 Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
> writes:
> >Mike Mulvihill (FASA) wrote:
> >>
> >> I do draw the line on using force points for starting character
> >> initation...it takes the fun out of intiation. I fall into the
> >sadistic GM
> >> catagory and I just love the Deed Ordeal. Bwahh Haaaahh! Hah!
> >
> >If that defines evil GMing then I guess my summer home is in Hell. :)
> >(An I'd like to invite whoever started this force point initiation
> >thing
> >over for a few eternities.)
> >
> I dunno. Maybe that was me? I saw it somewhere as a house rule and I
> thought it made sense, but I guess it'll probably get dropped soon (yes,
> it is a game breaker:)
>
> Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage

Wish it was that easy I actually first saw mention in the companion, not
saying to do it, actually saying you may wish to disallow it (it might
say you can earlier, don't know). I don't see it as nearly as much of a
problem using the staged initiate stuff, but I haven't played long with
the companion and to me initiation means something, something big at
that- you go from mortal man to demigod in one fell swoop (alright it's
a little excesive but shielding is awesome, so is anchoring, which I
will continue on another thread.)

Message no. 53 MC23 wrote:
>
> to Charles Baker (and other interested parties)
> First of all I'm elated your responce wasn't the one I was
> expecting, thank you. The only quip I would care to say about Mike's
> ruling now is maybe nobody (or few of us) bothered to ask before now? It
> wasn't even a question here until I started this whole mess. I've
> suffered too much from it already.

I'm only a parttime asshole. :) Really though I tend to respond in
kind, I tend to be mean to mean people, nice to nice people, and
argumentative to argumentative people. (Not implying anything, just
saying you came in sounding like you wanted to butt heads and I decided
to oblige)

> You missed by near-rants on the companion (I don't like it). ( I
> should have noticed ahead of time how much FASA's press releases stressed
> that the book was all _optional_ rules.) Here's why the point system
> bothered me. It's linear. Now if that ain't a minmaxer's dream I don't
> know what is. I was hoping for something with a geometric scale similiar
> to what you get out of the Priority picks. Until I see one in that form
> (and crunched for a few days or weeks) I won't use it. I haven't been
> driven enough to make one of my own so I'll stick with priorities.

I think the system in general makes characters much weaker the only guys
who benefit are low money mages, and metas, the same people I always
thought benefited too much anyway, and pennalizes the people who would
start with high attributes, thats why I like the ten point system, it
gives you a reason to be a mundane human.

[snip intro to meta cutting]
> I'm fine with the Minotaur but I felt I had to
> draw the line somewhere so I choose against the Satyr ork varient.
> Besides I didn't like the visual for them (one of the strong saving
> graces for these Varients IMO).
> The others will be brought to the standard net +3 Attributes, be the
> same metahuman level pick (I use more meta-human), and definately suffer
> more preducial reactions. (Ya wanna be a freak, fine.)

I'm not sure but are troll already viewed with a hostile reaction, if
not then the new trolls shouldn't be any worse (the original book
mentions how greatly varied trolls are, and who wouldn't be afraid of
them, I for one would be). Some of the others aren't so bad either,
like the mideastern orcs, but others are downright freakish.

Message no. 54 On Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:07:49 -0500 Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
writes:
>Hey does anyone think a troll with way high strength can hold an
>assault
>rifle in one hand?
> Dust
um..well..duh! I suppose now you're going to petition us that trolls (of
almost any strength, BTW) should be able to do with AR's what most people
can do with SMGs? Depending on your motives...nah! I won't say it.

Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage

Message no. 55 On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 03:54:51 -0800 Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
writes:
<snip>
>"Let me see he was a troll, and really tall, yeah ain't they all."
>"Ya say he had horns, big suprise."
>"Cute, ya say, we know the guy, real nice chum as these things go."
>
>Yeah trolls might notice but I doubt it (the cyclops being a rather
>unique example) sure giants are tall, aren't all trolls? Sure
>minotaurs
>have horns, don't most trolls. And fomorians are kinda cute, I doubt
>that would create a worse reaction (well with some people). Frankly I
>think it would take a trained eye to notice these things- especially
>when "trolls are highly variable in appearance" (SR p38) based on that
>section the only races that should have metavarients should be orcs
>and
>trolls, and orc and troll metavarients should be common and to the
>untrained eye indistingiusable. If the other races have them then
>adverse reactions are expected, but a minor difference in a race full
>of
>minor differences would hardly make anyone take notice.

Yes and no...Giants look pretty well human, except that they're so tall
(3.5 meters)...Minotaurs might be pretty distinguishable by the
nose...Oni and Satyr are pretty distinguishable, but Oni might be able to
get picked out by a description (OTOH..."The guy had blue skin" makes it
pretty easy to be ID'd:) Fomori, Dryads, Koborokuru, and Hobgoblins are
the variants which most resembel the original races, and would be most
susceptible to identification as such.
<snip>

Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage
--
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

Message no. 56 On 9 Jan 97 at 17:07, Mike Mulvihill (FASA) wrote:

> In a message dated 1/8/97 04:00:26 PM, Sascha wrote:
>
> >Errrmm... Mike... what about using the Force Points to bond Weapon Foci
> >for PhysAds? By the Black Book, p. 46, Force Points are also used "to
> >aquire foci"... ?
>
> Originally, this did not include PA's.
"Magician" it says... and p. 45 says "Adepts, magicians with limited
abilities [...]". The errata I have doesn't mention either as wrong...

Errm... (*wondering how to point out to a line developer ge's wrong*)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+

Message no. 57 Sascha Pabst wrote,
>Errm... (*wondering how to point out to a line developer ge's wrong*)
>
Omission. Did that reason for nonclarity I gave not mean anything to
you? What might be common sense to someone always dealing with such
matters can easily be forgotten. That is an issue of clarity that has not
really been brought up until now (or not often enough to warrant an
official errata for it). I think we have all decided by now by the strong
stance everyone here has taken that we are going to play this as we see
fit and damn the others. The arguement has ended...

- MC23, wishing it was that easy -

Message no. 58 In a message dated 01/08/97 10:32:15 AM, Gurth wrote:

>And now for the big question: Do physads get Force Points when using the
>standard chargen rules? If not, is this a change that happened after you
>took over as DLoH, or was it an omission in the original rules?

I have no idea what "standard chargen rules" mean. Why the rule is worded or
written that way is way from before my time, so I can only give an "offical"
ruleing on what's printed in the book. I have no idea why force points for
creating weapon foci for physads was not addressed. Eventually (that's Mike
speak for catching up), I'll post my take on rules and such but alas I
actually have to work here - damn those FASA overlords!!!!!

Have Fun!
Play Games!

Mike Mulvihill
Shadowrun Line Developer
FASA
See our web page at www.fasa.com

Message no. 59 In a message dated 01/08/97 04:33:47 PM, Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage
wrote:

>So, physads _have_ Force points, but _only_ for bonding foci? I realize
>that this is getting pretty tiring, but I like to have everything as
>clearly laid out as possible, to make sure I understand completely:)

Only if the GM allows it, otherwise no the PA has no Force
Points...offically.

Have Fun!
Play Games!
Ain't Rules Grand!

Mike Mulvihill
Shadowrun Line Developer
FASA
www.fasa.com

Message no. 60 Mike Mulvihill (FASA) said on 23:02/11 Jan 97...

> I have no idea what "standard chargen rules" mean.

"Standard character generation rules" -- the ABCDE system from the SRII
rulebook that we all grew up with, as opposed to the new points system
from the Companion.

> Eventually (that's Mike speak for catching up), I'll post my take on
> rules and such but alas I actually have to work here - damn those FASA
> overlords!!!!!

If you could find the time, I'm sure it would make a lot of people happy
(and some not happy, because it goes against their view on the rules :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Any two can play.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 61 On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, John E Pederson wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:07:49 -0500 Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
> writes:
> >Hey does anyone think a troll with way high strength can hold an
> >assault
> >rifle in one hand?
> > Dust
> um..well..duh! I suppose now you're going to petition us that trolls (of
> almost any strength, BTW) should be able to do with AR's what most people
> can do with SMGs? Depending on your motives...nah! I won't say it.
>
> Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage
>
Couple of my players who are trolls have been nagging me about that so I
was just wondering what all you other people thought.
Dust

Message no. 62 On Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:35:10 -0500 Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
writes:
>On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, John E Pederson wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:07:49 -0500 Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
>> writes:
>> >Hey does anyone think a troll with way high strength can hold an
>> >assault
>> >rifle in one hand?
>> > Dust
>> um..well..duh! I suppose now you're going to petition us that trolls
>(of
>> almost any strength, BTW) should be able to do with AR's what most
>people
>> can do with SMGs? Depending on your motives...nah! I won't say it.
>>
>> Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage
>>
>Couple of my players who are trolls have been nagging me about that so
>I
>was just wondering what all you other people thought.
> Dust
>

I suppose a Troll with an assault rifle can hold it with one hand. But if
I ever see one I am going to start running and not stop until I get to
Mexico.

Tiny Skull Hane <Tulsa,OK USA>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or
numbered!
-The Prisoner
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 63 MC23 wrote:
>
> Sascha Pabst wrote,
> >Errm... (*wondering how to point out to a line developer ge's wrong*)
> >
> Omission.

Assumption. (I'll agree the argument is over, but won't agree that there
is any evidence to support your belief- the opinion of the assistant
editors husband(?) excepted). (No offense Mike, but I had never heard of
you two years ago, and I don't actually own any books with your name in
em, at least I dont think I do. (excluding your Email for harrasment)

> Did that reason for nonclarity I gave not mean anything to
> you?

Correct.

> What might be common sense to someone always dealing with such
> matters can easily be forgotten. That is an issue of clarity that has not
> really been brought up until now (or not often enough to warrant an
> official errata for it).

It doesn't seem that there have been many arguments on the matter, but I
fail to understand the theory behind that- what they never had a first
edition player playtesting who wanted a weapon focus for his physad, or
a new player for that matter? They must be dealing with a radically
different demographic then I am (When I'm GMing about half of all
physads want a weapon at start, and the other half have no interest in
one later.)

> I think we have all decided by now by the strong
> stance everyone here has taken that we are going to play this as we see
> fit and damn the others. The arguement has ended...

As for how we play, true, but I doubt either one of us is going to
accept the others view on "This is what was originally intended"

Message no. 64 L Canthros wrote:
>
> On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 03:54:51 -0800 Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
> writes:
> <snip>
> >"Let me see he was a troll, and really tall, yeah ain't they all."
> >"Ya say he had horns, big suprise."
> >"Cute, ya say, we know the guy, real nice chum as these things go."
> >
> >Yeah trolls might notice but I doubt it (the cyclops being a rather
> >unique example) sure giants are tall, aren't all trolls? Sure
> >minotaurs
> >have horns, don't most trolls. And fomorians are kinda cute, I doubt
> >that would create a worse reaction (well with some people). Frankly I
> >think it would take a trained eye to notice these things- especially
> >when "trolls are highly variable in appearance" (SR p38) based on that
> >section the only races that should have metavarients should be orcs
> >and
> >trolls, and orc and troll metavarients should be common and to the
> >untrained eye indistingiusable. If the other races have them then
> >adverse reactions are expected, but a minor difference in a race full
> >of
> >minor differences would hardly make anyone take notice.
>
> Yes and no...Giants look pretty well human, except that they're so tall
> (3.5 meters)...Minotaurs might be pretty distinguishable by the
> nose...Oni and Satyr are pretty distinguishable, but Oni might be able to
> get picked out by a description

Oni and satyrs are a bit freakish for my tastes, (ie along with cyclops
and night ones I probly wouldn't allow em) but like with minotuars, a
troll with an ugly nose is just another troll, the point being that
there really is no standard, and it's hard for something to be abnormal
if there isn't an established norm to compare it too, granted it's
possible to take it too far (blue skin is excessive).

Message no. 65 On Sun, 12 Jan 1997 00:52:53 -0500 "Mike Mulvihill (FASA)"
<FASAMike@***.COM> writes:
>In a message dated 01/08/97 04:33:47 PM,
>Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage
>wrote:
>
>>So, physads _have_ Force points, but _only_ for bonding foci? I
>realize
>>that this is getting pretty tiring, but I like to have everything as
>>clearly laid out as possible, to make sure I understand completely:)
>
>Only if the GM allows it, otherwise no the PA has no Force
>Points...offically.
>
Alrighty. Just checking.

Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage
--
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

Message no. 66 On Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:35:10 -0500 Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
writes:
>Couple of my players who are trolls have been nagging me about that so
>I
>was just wondering what all you other people thought.
> Dust
>
Before allowing them to do it, be sure to take a moment to consider their
motives. If their motives are based upon their characters' thoughts,
beliefs, and/or wants and desires, it should be alright to allow it (if
they aren't munchies anyway). It they want this option for no reason
except to increase firepower to take down more enemies, to "win" the
game:), don't allow it. Fall back on the book if need be, explain,
perhaps, that the increased size of troll-sized stocks and grips on the
ARs makes it impractical. If nothing else, saddle them with enough
penalties for doing this (using two ARs at once would be pretty
memorable, I think) to make it greatly impractical.

Canthros
--
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

Message no. 67 On 12 Jan 97 at 14:34, Jarrod D Steeley wrote:
[snip Troll with 2 ARs]
> I suppose a Troll with an assault rifle can hold it with one hand. But if
> I ever see one I am going to start running and not stop until I get to
> Mexico.
First of all - please snip the comments you are not referring to.
Thanx.

Then - why would you run for fraggin AZTLAN?

Sascha
--
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