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Message no. 1
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Force Points for Initiation (was Re: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:41:52 -0500
At 01:17 AM 7/30/97 -0400, George wrote:
> Also, for those of you who (are crazy enough, IMNSHO, to) allow expenditure
>of force points for initiating, and since you can buy more force in the point
>generation system, what's your response to a physad blowing build points on
>force to start as an initiate?

He'd have to spend a LOT of BPs on force points in order to do so. Since
physads only get (magic) amount of force points to begin with and those are
to be strictly distributed for physad abilities (see pg. 21 SrComp) he'd
have to spend...

9 BPs for level 0
11 (20 total) BPs for level 1
12 (32 total) BPs for level 2
14 (46 total) BPs for level 3

...and so on. I, personally, wouldn't allow anyone to initiate during
chargen unless there were some seriously compelling campaign issues at hand
(e.g. characters are all playing experienced members of a magical order).
Even if they were, the cost of this would be absolutely enormous and, in my
eyes, not worth it. It'd be even less worthwhile at chargen where spell
force limits are in effect.

I appear to be one of the few people playing SR who doesn't fawn over
initiation. Maybe everyone else has seen something that I haven't, but it
costs tons of karma that I feel could be better spent elsewhere. As the
rules are, level 0 is the only level really worth striving to attain.
Unless you have Geasa, then it's worth it to initiate as many times as
needed to remove your Geasa. Add in the "gradual initiation" rules and it
becomes a karma pit of minimal return.

I'm also one of the few who doesn't like foci of any sort. Nice benefits,
but the downside is a killer and the cost is staggering. Why spend all that
karma and money to get a focus when you can spend that karma filling out
your spell repetoir and that money buying you the finest library/lodge
around or more contacts or better equipment? Plus, you don't have that
grounding/thievery thing dogging you around wherever you go.

What are the opposite opinions and the bases for them? I'm not going to
attack anyone on this, I just want to know why people like locks and foci so
much (aside from the obvious) and why initiation is so popular?
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 2
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Force Points for Initiation (was Re: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:53:50 +1000
> I appear to be one of the few people playing SR who doesn't fawn over
> initiation. Maybe everyone else has seen something that I haven't, but it
> costs tons of karma that I feel could be better spent elsewhere. As the
> rules are, level 0 is the only level really worth striving to attain.
> Unless you have Geasa, then it's worth it to initiate as many times as
> needed to remove your Geasa. Add in the "gradual initiation" rules and it
> becomes a karma pit of minimal return.

I tend to get my characters to Grade 1 or 2, just for the sake of the
shielding dice (if it's even in character for them to initiate).
Admittedly, we use a house rule on shielding dice, since we felt they
were too powerful as written. The shielding dice still add to your
attribute to resist the spell (makes DMs really useful!) but you don't
get to add your WHOLE DAMNED MAGIC POOL to the shielding dice.

I'm vehemently against any sort of gradual initiation rules, because it
ENCOURAGES people to initiate more than they would otherwise.

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
Who says I'm crazy? I prefer the term 'sensibility deficient'
- Tamino
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 3
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Force Points for Initiation (was Re: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:29:44 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-30 08:36:27 EDT, you write:

> He'd have to spend a LOT of BPs on force points in order to do so. Since
> physads only get (magic) amount of force points to begin with and those
are
> to be strictly distributed for physad abilities (see pg. 21 SrComp) he'd
> have to spend...
>
> 9 BPs for level 0

There you go. That's where I'd stop, because once you have Metamagic, the
rest is icing. Granted, it's NICE icing, but still...

> ...and so on. I, personally, wouldn't allow anyone to initiate during
> chargen unless there were some seriously compelling campaign issues at
hand
> (e.g. characters are all playing experienced members of a magical order).

Oooohhh, neat concept! I'll have to think about that one...

> Even if they were, the cost of this would be absolutely enormous and, in
my
> eyes, not worth it. It'd be even less worthwhile at chargen where spell
> force limits are in effect.

The trick with that is primarily just reaching Grade 0, since it gives you
all the metamagic. Anchored spells are the way to create enchanted missile
weapons (anchor a flame bomb to your arrowhead.....) by the way.

> I appear to be one of the few people playing SR who doesn't fawn over
> initiation. Maybe everyone else has seen something that I haven't, but it
> costs tons of karma that I feel could be better spent elsewhere. As the
> rules are, level 0 is the only level really worth striving to attain.
> Unless you have Geasa, then it's worth it to initiate as many times as
> needed to remove your Geasa. Add in the "gradual initiation" rules and it
> becomes a karma pit of minimal return.

Twofold setup. Reduce initiation costs to: 3xBase at CharGen, 2xBase if self
initiating during game play, 1xBase if group initiating, subtract .5 from
multiplier for ordeals, and institute gradual initiation(Because you are
supposed to learn something new when you initiate).

> I'm also one of the few who doesn't like foci of any sort. Nice benefits,
> but the downside is a killer and the cost is staggering. Why spend all
that
> karma and money to get a focus when you can spend that karma filling out
> your spell repetoir and that money buying you the finest library/lodge
> around or more contacts or better equipment? Plus, you don't have that
> grounding/thievery thing dogging you around wherever you go.

Foci can be too easily powerplayed from the ground up. You can get a target
number just about as low as you want to actually make it, and you can reduce
the karma required to bond it to practically nothing. The rules are a little
too rough. And IMHO, orichalcum is just too easy to make.

Wolfstar
Message no. 4
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Force Points for Initiation (was Re: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:36:11 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-30 08:45:38 EDT, you write:

> I'm vehemently against any sort of gradual initiation rules, because it
> ENCOURAGES people to initiate more than they would otherwise.

Well, I suppose that's one way of looking at it. I just have a slight
problem with the concept of, "Okay, you aren't a novice mage anymore, you
still have a lot of training to go through, and oh, by the way, here's
metamagic<THUMP>." Initiation is a gradual thing in the real world, why
shouldn't it be in Shadowrun?

Wolfstar
Message no. 5
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Force Points for Initiation (was Re: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:17:08 -0500
You wrote:
> I'm vehemently against any sort of gradual initiation rules, because it
> ENCOURAGES people to initiate more than they would otherwise.

I *really* don't follow the logic behind that, sorry. :/
Could you explain what you mean?

losthalo
Message no. 6
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Force Points for Initiation (was Re: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:25:49 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-30 18:25:13 EDT, you write:

<< Foci can be too easily powerplayed from the ground up. You can get a
target
number just about as low as you want to actually make it, and you can reduce
the karma required to bond it to practically nothing. The rules are a little
too rough. And IMHO, orichalcum is just too easy to make.
>>

I don't know about that. A mage in my game contracted her tailsmonger to make
a combination Weapon/Power Focus Rating 5/5. Took over a year in game time
for it.

Thankfully, she didn't decide to get more foci....

-Bandit
Message no. 7
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Force Points for Initiation (was Re: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 19:03:11 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-31 05:21:40 EDT, KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU
(Wendy Wanders, Subject 117) writes:

>
> I *really* don't follow the logic behind that, sorry. :/
> Could you explain what you mean?
>
> losthalo
>
I know I am probably talking in a past-tense conversation, but I believe I
have an idea what the guy meant by his statement of "encouraging people to
initiate faster", which I accidentally snipped.

He means that if you only get so much power at a given time, you'll get
yourself in a hurry to get the rest of it.

Air Force 1 "...if you give a mouse a cookie....he'll want a glass of
milk..."
Message no. 8
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Force Points for Initiation (was Re: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:19:49 -0500
You wrote:
> He means that if you only get so much power at a given time, you'll get
> yourself in a hurry to get the rest of it.
So giving it to them all at once makes more sense? Making the reason higher
Grade Initiates are rare is that it isn't worth much... no, don't like that. :(

losthalo

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