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Message no. 1
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Force Points for Initiation (was: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:10:45 EDT
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:17:08 -0500 "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117"
<KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU> writes:

>> I'm vehemently against any sort of gradual initiation rules, because
>it
>> ENCOURAGES people to initiate more than they would otherwise.
>
>I *really* don't follow the logic behind that, sorry. :/
>Could you explain what you mean?


What Lady J was saying is that by making Initiation a gradual thing, a
player is more likely to have their character initiate to higher grades
than they would otherwise have bothered with, simply so that they can get
all the metamagical abilities they want/need.

--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 2
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Force Points for Initiation (was: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:41:28 -0500
You wrote:
> What Lady J was saying is that by making Initiation a gradual thing, a
> player is more likely to have their character initiate to higher grades
> than they would otherwise have bothered with, simply so that they can get
> all the metamagical abilities they want/need.
Yeah, and what I don't understand is why that might be a problem... What's the
difference in having those other abilities gained after several grades rather
than at the first? Gaining all five metamagic abilities at Grade 0 never made
any sense to me, I think gradual initiation makes it more like skill gains, it
takes time to develop. YMMV I was just curious as to what about gradual
initiation bugger her so much.

losthalo
Message no. 3
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Force Points for Initiation (was: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:55:15 -0400
At 10:41 PM 7/30/97 -0500, Wendy Wanders, Subject 117 wrote these timeless
words:
>You wrote:
>> What Lady J was saying is that by making Initiation a gradual thing, a
>> player is more likely to have their character initiate to higher grades
>> than they would otherwise have bothered with, simply so that they can get
>> all the metamagical abilities they want/need.
>Yeah, and what I don't understand is why that might be a problem...
What's the
>difference in having those other abilities gained after several grades rather
>than at the first? Gaining all five metamagic abilities at Grade 0 never
made
>any sense to me, I think gradual initiation makes it more like skill
gains, it
>takes time to develop. YMMV I was just curious as to what about gradual
>initiation bugger her so much.
>
Basically, the problem is that Magical Initiates are supposed to be VERY
rare, and higher level initiates even more so... yet, it seems like quite
rapidly every mage/shaman/physad in a game becomes a 4th or 5th level
initiate, and it just skews the whole concept of rarity.

By using gradual initiation, so that you only get one ability per level, or
whatever, you encourage the mage/shaman to initiate to a higher level than
he would normally force himself to go...

<shrug>

I can see both sides of it, and while I like magic, I think that the power
levels are screwed... It's the same with skill levels. Certain high
numbers become the norm for Shadowrunners, but they're so much ridiculously
higher than what is _SUPPOSED_ to be high levels... i mean, a grade 3 or 4
Initiate should be considered VERY rare and VERY powerful, but is common as
dirt as far as Shadowrunners go. <shrug>

Bull
--
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Message no. 4
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Force Points for Initiation (was: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:19:51 +1000
> Yeah, and what I don't understand is why that might be a problem... What's the
> difference in having those other abilities gained after several grades rather
> than at the first? Gaining all five metamagic abilities at Grade 0 never made
> any sense to me, I think gradual initiation makes it more like skill gains, it
> takes time to develop. YMMV I was just curious as to what about gradual
> initiation bugger her so much.

Because unless you limit shielding dice and magic point increases as
well, with gradual initiation, by the time the character gets to the
level of metamagic they want they'll have grotesque amounts of shielding
dice and similar magic ratings...

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
Who says I'm crazy? I prefer the term 'sensibility deficient'
- Tamino
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Force Points for Initiation (was: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:20:34 -0500
You wrote:
> Basically, the problem is that Magical Initiates are supposed to be VERY
> rare, and higher level initiates even more so... yet, it seems like quite
> rapidly every mage/shaman/physad in a game becomes a 4th or 5th level
> initiate, and it just skews the whole concept of rarity.

> By using gradual initiation, so that you only get one ability per level, or
> whatever, you encourage the mage/shaman to initiate to a higher level than
> he would normally force himself to go...

Okay, now I gotcha, but... this just means that Grade X means less than it did
before, only high grades are meaningful. From what I've heard, there are a lot
of Initiating PCs in games now, and that would seem to be because of all the
'neat stuff' you gain with just one grade of Initiation. However, if you
didn't *get* Anchoring, Centering, Dispelling, Masking, Quickening, and
Shielding, et drecking cetera at Grade 0, it might be so much more beneficial
to do other things with Karma, like raise Sorcery to gain Magic Pool, or learn
more and more spells... Initiation is 'kid in a candy shop' at grade 0, too
many new toys to know what to do with them all.

> I can see both sides of it, and while I like magic, I think that the power
> levels are screwed... It's the same with skill levels. Certain high
> numbers become the norm for Shadowrunners, but they're so much ridiculously
> higher than what is _SUPPOSED_ to be high levels... i mean, a grade 3 or 4
> Initiate should be considered VERY rare and VERY powerful, but is common as
> dirt as far as Shadowrunners go. <shrug>
Same thing happened with Alpha and Betaware, why do you think Delta came about?
So there would be a 'really, really rare' category of better cyber, since
everyone and their brother had at least Alpha. SR has been doing this over
time, just upping the power levels every year or so, and it's not a trend I
like. Just look at Cybermancy, was that idea even remotely necessary? It was
something to get Cybertechnology to sell better, imo, and a fairly interesting
but not really... good idea.

losthalo
Message no. 6
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Force Points for Initiation (was: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:28:40 -0500
You wrote:
> Because unless you limit shielding dice and magic point increases as
> well, with gradual initiation, by the time the character gets to the
> level of metamagic they want they'll have grotesque amounts of shielding
> dice and similar magic ratings...

Ah... there are solutions to such things, but yeah, it requires mucking about
with the rules. Personally rather than Initiating to ungodly levels I'd rather
take one Grade and then spend my hard-earned Karma on the things that my new
Metamagic abilities enhance... Sorcery skill, new spells, do some Quickenings,
mask some foci... Why get to be a high grade Initiate unless it gives new
abilities? You could, for simplitity's sake, include something in Gradual
Initiation: the Magic gain is not automatic either, it's one of your options,
you have to take that in place of a new Metamagic ability. :) *shrug*

losthalo
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Force Points for Initiation (was: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:13:52 +0100
John E Pederson said on 22:10/30 Jul 97...

> What Lady J was saying is that by making Initiation a gradual thing, a
> player is more likely to have their character initiate to higher grades
> than they would otherwise have bothered with, simply so that they can get
> all the metamagical abilities they want/need.

With which I have absolutely no problem -- it costs so much Karma that it
will either take a long time to reach a level that high, and/or leave most
other areas underdeveloped compared to the abilities of the others in the
group of PCs.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And you can try and you just might...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 8
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Force Points for Initiation (was: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:15:16 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-30 23:32:03 EDT, you write:

> Same thing happened with Alpha and Betaware, why do you think Delta came
> about?
> So there would be a 'really, really rare' category of better cyber, since
> everyone and their brother had at least Alpha. SR has been doing this
over
> time, just upping the power levels every year or so, and it's not a trend
I
> like. Just look at Cybermancy, was that idea even remotely necessary? It

> was
> something to get Cybertechnology to sell better, imo, and a fairly
> interesting
> but not really... good idea.

On Cybermancy: Consider that the main factions providing the conversion
utilize blood magic, and that the link of blood magic can play all sorts of
havok in the storyline.
On Cyberware: I just want to know why there's a SOTA for the matrix and not
for the rest of the world. So in our setting, Alpha is normal(with book costs
NOT multiplied), Beta is list cost times 4, and you can't get Delta because
if you know that delta exists yer ahead of the curve. Standard essence cyber
is half book cost.
On Initiates: Who cares how common they are, when the majority of the runner
teams out there effectively doubles the percentage of magicians in the
general populace. Initiates are supposed to be rare, yes. Magicians in
general are supposed to be just as rare in the general populace. How many
teams have two mages?

Wolfstar
Message no. 9
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Force Points for Initiation (was: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:46:29 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-31 03:24:36 EDT, you write:

> Because unless you limit shielding dice and magic point increases as
> well, with gradual initiation, by the time the character gets to the
> level of metamagic they want they'll have grotesque amounts of shielding
> dice and similar magic ratings...

(Suddenly, the light comes on in the back of Wolfy's skull.) OH!!! I grasp
the concept now! Alright!
As far as my group is concerned, When you use gradual Initiation rules, the
Initiate Grade that they gain the power at is considered 0 for that metamagic
power. I mean, sure, you still get your magic rating dice, but at least you
don't have oodles of shielding dice when you finally get the power. That'd
defeat the purpose of gradual Initiation.
As for magic rating, I suppose you could allow them to lose a geas OR gain a
point to their magic attribute as a way of limiting that....
Message no. 10
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Force Points for Initiation (was: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 19:04:07 -0500
You wrote:
> On Initiates: Who cares how common they are, when the majority of the runner
> teams out there effectively doubles the percentage of magicians in the
> general populace. Initiates are supposed to be rare, yes. Magicians in
> general are supposed to be just as rare in the general populace. How many
> teams have two mages?

A team of runners in no way represents the magically-active population
statistics, any more than a corporate structure does. Magically active people
tend to be certain lines of work, and if you don't like sitting astral security
for a corp, SRing is one popular choice. And groups I played with tended to
have two mages only if the group was large.

losthalo
Message no. 11
From: Chuck Stevens <harmonix@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Force Points for Initiation (was: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:22:56 -0700
----------
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Force Points for Initiation (was: The Chromium Mage)
> Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 4:13 AM
>
> John E Pederson said on 22:10/30 Jul 97...
>
> > What Lady J was saying is that by making Initiation a gradual thing, a
> > player is more likely to have their character initiate to higher grades
> > than they would otherwise have bothered with, simply so that they can
get
> > all the metamagical abilities they want/need.
>
> With which I have absolutely no problem -- it costs so much Karma that it
> will either take a long time to reach a level that high, and/or leave
most
> other areas underdeveloped compared to the abilities of the others in the
> group of PCs.
>
> --

Here's another point of view:
Yes, highly-Initiated mages are supposed to be rare and powerful. Yes,
player characters should not have free-reign to initiate to their heart's
content. But why do the *game mechanics* have to enforce this? I'd say
the GM isn't doing his/her job if players are allowed to initiate just
because they have enough Karma for it.
The way I see it, the *priviledge* of gaining a Rank in Initiation must be
earned, beyond building up Good Karma. To help enforce this, the GM can
require that the character first meet certain requirements before they can
spend the Karma to gain a particular level of Initiation.
Some examples:
- Sorcery and/or Conjuring Skill must be up to a particular rank
- Certain Concentrations and/or Specializations in Sorcery and/or
Conjuring must be known
- Certain Attributes must be a certain value (Physical Attributes for
PhysAds, Mental Attributes for mages)
- The character must know certain spells to certain levels
- The character must have been a member of his/her Group for a
prerequisite period of time
- The character must fulfil certain tasks to prove they are worthy of the
promotion
- Require that the character be a member of a Group, unless they heavily
role-play Self Initiation
- Require that the character perform an Ordeal, and role-play it
- The character must take an Oath to the Group; violating it would negate
the Initiation
- I'm sure you could think of more.

The point here is that Initiation doesn't need to be given away for free.
For those characters that are members of a Group, it is important the the
GM actually create the group and its members, and use that Group actively
in the game. Plenty of story-ideas there. Otherwise, what's the point?
I hear a lot of "Why do the rules allow this-or-that? It is too
unbalancing!" Balancing characters with the game world is part of the GM's
job, for Seldon's sake. The game mechanics only go so far, and can't
predict everything the GM wants to do.

------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Stevens
harmonix@**.net

"If your god is so omnipotent,
why does he need my money?"
- Salmoneus
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 12
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Force Points for Initiation (was: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:40:59 GMT
Chuck Stevens writes

> Here's another point of view:
> Yes, highly-Initiated mages are supposed to be rare and powerful. Yes,
> player characters should not have free-reign to initiate to their heart's
> content. But why do the *game mechanics* have to enforce this? I'd say
> the GM isn't doing his/her job if players are allowed to initiate just
> because they have enough Karma for it.
> The way I see it, the *priviledge* of gaining a Rank in Initiation must be
> earned, beyond building up Good Karma. To help enforce this, the GM can
> require that the character first meet certain requirements before they can
> spend the Karma to gain a particular level of Initiation.
> Some examples:
> - Sorcery and/or Conjuring Skill must be up to a particular rank
> - Certain Concentrations and/or Specializations in Sorcery and/or
> Conjuring must be known
> - Certain Attributes must be a certain value (Physical Attributes for
> PhysAds, Mental Attributes for mages)
> - The character must know certain spells to certain levels
i don't think any of these are good ideas, they are just sticking
arbitary limits there in the game that effectively say 'your not
doing this cause i say so!'

> - The character must have been a member of his/her Group for a
> prerequisite period of time
> - The character must fulfil certain tasks to prove they are worthy of the
> promotion
If the PC wants to join someone elses magicla group these are
perfectly on in game. I can well see the head of the group not
wanting the PC to reach thier grade.

> - Require that the character be a member of a Group, unless they heavily
> role-play Self Initiation
No need really, seen how much self initiation costs!
I have other comments on this subject but better replying to another
post so read everything please.

> - Require that the character perform an Ordeal, and role-play it
yep, metaplanar quest roleplayed can be real fun for the GM <evil
grin>

> The point here is that Initiation doesn't need to be given away for free.
> For those characters that are members of a Group, it is important the the
> GM actually create the group and its members, and use that Group actively
> in the game. Plenty of story-ideas there. Otherwise, what's the point?
> I hear a lot of "Why do the rules allow this-or-that? It is too
> unbalancing!" Balancing characters with the game world is part of the GM's
> job, for Seldon's sake. The game mechanics only go so far, and can't
> predict everything the GM wants to do.
>
Yeah. PC's often solve things by forming thier own groups so they are
the boss. However this requires they pursuade someone to tell them
how to self initiate :)

Mark
Message no. 13
From: Kristling the Weird <kristlingweird@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Force Points for Initiation (was: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:14:55 -0400
Chuck Stevens wrote:
<SNIP>

> The point here is that Initiation doesn't need to be given away for free.
> For those characters that are members of a Group, it is important the the
> GM actually create the group and its members, and use that Group actively
> in the game. Plenty of story-ideas there. Otherwise, what's the point?
> I hear a lot of "Why do the rules allow this-or-that? It is too
> unbalancing!" Balancing characters with the game world is part of the GM's
> job, for Seldon's sake. The game mechanics only go so far, and can't
> predict everything the GM wants to do.
I long ago made ordeals NECESSARY to gain a grade. They don't reduce the
cost in my game, either.
--Power Gamer: I use all my cyberware to locate and target the gang
leader without even entering!
GM: Your cyberware just blew up. So did you.
PG: Hey, you can't do that!
GM: Of course I can, I'm the GM.
Kristling "The Weird" Ravenwing
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/5482/
kristlingweird@*********.com

Further Reading

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