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Message no. 1
From: westln@***.EDU
Subject: Forensic Precautions
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:12:48 -0500
>>
>> I guess those full face masks they use with paintbal games would be
>> standard issue from that point on.
>>
>>
>> Martin Steffens
>> chimerae@***.ie
>
>I thought full face masks were a must in the Shadowrunner
>business, at least when dancing around in front of security
>cameras?
>
>Andreas Wagner

We prefere either physical mask spell, invisibility, or making sure
we take the optical chips with us as we leave. And then there are the
other forensic precautions.

0) Gloves, surgical gloves can leave prints under the right conditions.
1) Dispose of your weapon after every run.
2) Use caseless ammo so no shell casings.
3) Sterilize spell.
4) Erase spell signatures.
5) Sprinkle hair samples from several barber shops.
6) I forget the chemical names but there are several that you can use to
contaminate the scene to disrupt the chemical tests done on blood samples.
We prefere to atomize them and release such a cloud if needed.
7) Release appropriate chemicals to mask any scents left behind. Just to
prevent blood hounds or physads with enhanced noses.
8) New tires for the vehicle. Unless we used a disposable car.
9) Destroy all clothing warn at their site and anything that came in
contact with them.
10) Strip the paint from the vehicle if invovled in any sort of collision
and repaint. Might have to dispose of the vehicle. Try to use the most
popular paints. Painting over the the paint is actually worse. Any paint
chips left on the run will have the history of the painting process.
Multiple layers just make it easier to identify the car.

Other precautions we do at the base.
All food utensils, cups, plates are made of the plastic that dissolve in
gasoline. And we dispose of them that way.
All drains get chemical treatments to destroy anything stuck there.
All bedding and clothing not taken with us are incinerated.
The place is ready to be torched incase we have to leave in a hurry before
cleaning the place up.

I'm sure I have forgotten a couple. Any other suggestions?

Basically follow the simple rule. Any time two objects(A,B) touch, a little
of each object is left on the other. When one of those objects(B) touches a
third object(C), C not only gets a little of B but also a little of the
residue of A as well. You have to break the chain to be safe.

A simple example. You break a window. Glass fragments will get in your
clothing. You drive away, then dispose of your clothing. Unfortunately you
have to remember to clean the seats in your car aswell because some of the
glass was left there.


-
Lorden
Message no. 2
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 04:28:49 +0000
*snip a LONG list of details and precautions*

Um... I just thought I'd mention that I usually don't care about
details like this. Now, that is perhaps because I'm lazy, but I do
not see the point of going over stuff like that meticulously. I leave
that to character intelligence and assume it goes on in the BG.

But then, that's me.

Regards,
Fade

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 3
From: Sean Martinez <el_bandit@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 07:15:41 -0500
Greetings!!

I have some thoughts on this from the opposite side of the screen and
also because forensics is my wife's hobby <g>. I feel that there never
can be the perfect crime and that while one may get away with something a
few times, eventually they will get caught unless they are very, very
lucky.

For a lot of the ideas you suggest, I would require the player to have a
knowledge skill in Forensics at a decent level (2 or 3).

>We prefere either physical mask spell, invisibility, or making sure
>we take the optical chips with us as we leave. And then there are the
>other forensic precautions.

Typically I do not encourage runners to stay around at the scene of a run
especially to look for vid cams data base records. Typially today such
devices record to a secure location such as a tough safe of cabinet that
is not obvious. Also places are typically guarded. It is not uncommon for
data to also be backed up.

You would also have to find the location and get in. That is spending
too much time at a location, and the more time you spend the more chances
of getting caught.

Keep in mind security precautions are not always hooked upto the builings
mainframe, to do so would be stupid.

Corps and sec forces tend to call for reinforcements when they realize
there has been a break in, so staying around is very bad.

Wouldn't you think that Foresenics is much more advanced in SR than in
out current day standards? With the advantage of magic, new options
become available.

>0) Gloves, surgical gloves can leave prints under the right
>conditions.

You are most correct!

>1) Dispose of your weapon after every run.

That can get really expensive really quick and there is the chance that
the waepon may end up in the authorities hands anyway. Also there is the
possibly that the person selling you the weapon may be working for
someone you just hit or are going to hit and may figure out what
happened.

"The boss was hit by a team using UZI IIIs, didn't we just sell several"

>2) Use caseless ammo so no shell casings.

Can be good, but depends on the GM and how widespread he wants caseless
ammo to be. In my game it is not a common site, so it would not be
impossible to track. (Who said corps or organized crinme would use the
law? Goto a suspect and threaten them into talking.)

I know what FASA says about caseless ammo and I just do not agree, but
that is just me.

>3) Sterilize spell.

Excellent idea, but do you cast it every few meters you go? All it takes
is one stray hair you know. Also, casting a spell makes an astral noise,
so repeted castings would attract any astral guards.

I have seen GMs interperte the spell differently. I had one that rules
the spell only makes organic material unsable for ritual sorcery, so you
could still use it for DNA typing. Any GMs have some thoughts on this?

>4) Erase spell signatures.

Good idea, just a good bit of time involved and if you are in combat, it
is not really an option.

>5) Sprinkle hair samples from several barber shops.

LOL!! You can not be serious. Foresics would rule that out quickly. First
of all cut hair has a straight edge where it has been cut. Second, they
look for hairs which have a folical (root) on it so that they can do DNA
typing. They also look at hair color and type of hair.

>6) I forget the chemical names but there are several that you can use
>to
>contaminate the scene to disrupt the chemical tests done on blood
>samples.
>We prefere to atomize them and release such a cloud if needed.

Another great myth of the criminal world.

Many good and fun chemiclas require special permints and liceneses to buy
and are tracked by government or corporate organizations. Depending on
the chemical this may be the case.

For contamimating blood you have to would have to really mix the chemical
into the pool of blood, just applying it in an area will not work. If you
heavily spray the area only the outer layer of cells in the blood glob
will be rendered unusable for DNA readings. The under layers will be
fine.

Just about any cleaner product will do. I will point out that you can
still get a basic blood type from contanimated blood.

There can also use illumous and blacklight to pick up where blood has
been even if you wahed it off. Blood does not really come out.

As a GM I would require said character that is attempting such to have a
skills such as , Foresics 3+ and maybe even Organic Chemistry 3+.

>7) Release appropriate chemicals to mask any scents left behind. Just
>to
>prevent blood hounds or physads with enhanced noses.

There are no such chemicals. While you can overload the blood hound sense
of smell, they will pick up the under-scent and follow you. Only by
crossing through water such as a pond or river can shake a blood hound.

>8) New tires for the vehicle. Unless we used a disposable car.

That can get expensive and also very suspecious. Wouldn't you think
something is up when you have seen the same group buy several lots of new
tires in a year. I know I would. Such an search could be time consuming
but that is what deckers and their bots are for :)

>9) Destroy all clothing warn at their site and anything that came in
>contact with them.

I have this image of a bunch of naked runners standing around a oil drum
with something burning inside and I have no idea why.

Nothing completely burns, there is alway something left.

>10) Strip the paint from the vehicle if invovled in any sort of
>collision
>and repaint. Might have to dispose of the vehicle. Try to use the
>most
>popular paints. Painting over the the paint is actually worse. Any
>paint
>chips left on the run will have the history of the painting process.
>Multiple layers just make it easier to identify the car.

That can get expensive! There also can be witnesses which always seem to
be around when you never want them to be.

Even the popular paint can be traced by asking the proper questions to
the proper person or visiting the correct location. Thought not as easily
as you would want it to.

All vehicles in SR have VINs that can be tracked by auto drones. A
vehicle may auto-report its accident to the proper authorites, which I
could really see. It also deopends on who you run into, and if the
vehicle is still driveable afterwards.

>Other precautions we do at the base.

Best precaution is to not have a base. Bases are vulnerable and people do
notice who comes and goes, at least some of the time.

>All food utensils, cups, plates are made of the plastic that dissolve
>in
>gasoline. And we dispose of them that way.
>All drains get chemical treatments to destroy anything stuck there.

That is just being silly, and taking more precautions than neccessary.

>All bedding and clothing not taken with us are incinerated.

Where do you take them to be incinerated? I personally have never been to
an incinerator before and would really like to know.

Once agian we come back to that being suspicious thing, or having the
same group go to an incinerator and burn bedding and cloths. People tend
to remeber such things. When I servered my time at BP, I always
remembered the unique customers even if they only came in once every 4
months...like the man with the gold tooth that bought a cappachino every
4 months.

>The place is ready to be torched incase we have to leave in a hurry
>before
>cleaning the place up.

Depending on the building and more importantly who owned it there may be
an detailed arson investigation. There is usally an investigation anyway.
That can lead to talking with people who may have saw the team come and
go.

I am not putting down your ideas, but offering a more realistic look at
them. I have to give you credit for trying, my newest shadowrun group of
players does not even try and think ahead.

-El Bandit (http://members.aol.com/elbandit/sr/main.html)

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Message no. 4
From: Slipspeed <atreloar@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 01:23:38 +1000
>I have some thoughts on this from the opposite side of the screen and
>also because forensics is my wife's hobby <g>. I feel that there never
>can be the perfect crime and that while one may get away with something a
>few times, eventually they will get caught unless they are very, very
>lucky.


Agreed. It merely takes one mistake, and it can be something so minor that
you'll overlook it anyway. OTOH, those that DO know what they're doing
probably have a greater chance of success, as wiping out most of the obvious
evidence slows the law down to some degree, and might allow the person/group
to get away in time... To Spain, for example.

[snip]

>Keep in mind security precautions are not always hooked upto the builings
>mainframe, to do so would be stupid.


Agreed here too, and a big point, from what I've seen... A decker or even a
security rigger can't control ALL of the security. Why would security be
hooked to the matrix? There's no valid reason for it, and raises the risk
of security breaches. Having everything from the fridge to the cameras to
the maglocks to the elevators connected goes too far.

[snip]

>>1) Dispose of your weapon after every run.
>
>That can get really expensive really quick and there is the chance that
>the waepon may end up in the authorities hands anyway.

True, but there are precautions... Dipping the weapon in something mildly
corrosive (acidic or basic) will remove fingerprints. Coca-cola will do.
That only helps with fingerprints, but as I said before, slowing the law
down enough might do the trick.

>>Other precautions we do at the base.
>
>Best precaution is to not have a base. Bases are vulnerable and people do
>notice who comes and goes, at least some of the time.


True. However, a mobile headquarters/safe house is also vulnerable, but in
different ways. It comes down to a choice of which is more attractive.

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology. So
there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: Bryan Covington <bryan.covington@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:02:29 -0500
> Agreed here too, and a big point, from what I've seen... A decker or even
> a
> security rigger can't control ALL of the security. Why would security be
> hooked to the matrix? There's no valid reason for it, and raises the risk
> of security breaches. Having everything from the fridge to the cameras to
> the maglocks to the elevators connected goes too far.
>
Where I work all the electronic locks are wired to a
computer. The simple reason for this is that you can limit access to certain
areas. For example. I have access to the hallway doors and the front door
but not to the server room (which also has a keypad incidentally). When you
tap your badge to the readers it checks the ID attached to that badge and if
you are cleared to go through that door it unlocks.
You may say "Ok, so just make the computer offline and local
to the building." Well I also have access to various areas of several floors
in our downtown office, and the other two outlying offices near mine. Even
if you ran a dedicated line from each building to each other building (which
I believe we have), you still then have the risk of someone splicing into
the system from an access port or a repeater. Not to mention that dedicated
lines are pricey, IC is cheap. Simpler to just use existing lines and secure
the hell out of the systems on either end.
Message no. 6
From: Bryan Covington <bryan.covington@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:37:35 -0500
> >1) Dispose of your weapon after every run.
>
> That can get really expensive really quick and there is the chance that
> the waepon may end up in the authorities hands anyway. Also there is the
> possibly that the person selling you the weapon may be working for
> someone you just hit or are going to hit and may figure out what
> happened.
>
> "The boss was hit by a team using UZI IIIs, didn't we just sell several"
>
This has always seemed like a silly thing for me too. Unless
you are connected to the target in some other way it makes no sense to toss
the gun. If a runner's apartment is tossed they are already a suspect and in
pretty deep sheep dip anyway. The smart runner is long gone by the time the
cops get a warrant.

> >2) Use caseless ammo so no shell casings.
>
> Can be good, but depends on the GM and how widespread he wants caseless
> ammo to be. In my game it is not a common site, so it would not be
> impossible to track. (Who said corps or organized crinme would use the
> law? Goto a suspect and threaten them into talking.)
>
> I know what FASA says about caseless ammo and I just do not agree, but
> that is just me.
>
I see caseless as being pretty common regardless of what
anyone says. :)

> >5) Sprinkle hair samples from several barber shops.
>
> LOL!! You can not be serious. Foresics would rule that out quickly. First
> of all cut hair has a straight edge where it has been cut. Second, they
> look for hairs which have a folical (root) on it so that they can do DNA
> typing. They also look at hair color and type of hair.
>
Not as silly as you may think. Granted a lab will sniff out
a planted stuff under a microscope pretty much as soon as they see it. But
having to check 5000 hairs as opposed to 20 is going to take a lot longer.
This buys the runner time.

> >6) I forget the chemical names but there are several that you can use
> >to
> >contaminate the scene to disrupt the chemical tests done on blood
> >samples.
> >We prefere to atomize them and release such a cloud if needed.
>
> Another great myth of the criminal world.
>
How about lye? That'll break down damn near any organic
compound into slime pretty quickly.

> Many good and fun chemiclas require special permints and liceneses to buy
> and are tracked by government or corporate organizations. Depending on
> the chemical this may be the case.
>
You can buy lye by the pound.

> For contamimating blood you have to would have to really mix the chemical
> into the pool of blood, just applying it in an area will not work. If you
> heavily spray the area only the outer layer of cells in the blood glob
> will be rendered unusable for DNA readings. The under layers will be
> fine.
>
Not necessarily. If the chemical eats away the organics the
slime is still gonna be basic (acid vs. base) and will keep breaking stuff
down for a while. Although a pool of blood is still a stretch.

Again I must say that if this is an issue you're already in
trouble.

> >7) Release appropriate chemicals to mask any scents left behind. Just
> >to
> >prevent blood hounds or physads with enhanced noses.
>
> There are no such chemicals. While you can overload the blood hound sense
> of smell, they will pick up the under-scent and follow you. Only by
> crossing through water such as a pond or river can shake a blood hound.
>
That doesn't always work either folks. I saw a bloodhound
track a girl in a car on the interstate. These puppies are VERY sensitive.

> >8) New tires for the vehicle. Unless we used a disposable car.
>
> That can get expensive and also very suspecious. Wouldn't you think
> something is up when you have seen the same group buy several lots of new
> tires in a year. I know I would. Such an search could be time consuming
> but that is what deckers and their bots are for :)
>
And for pete's sake just buy common tires.
"Yes sir we found a tire imprint from the perp's car."
"And how many other cars have those same tires?"
"We've narrowed it down to 1.2 million sir."
"Wonderful."

> >9) Destroy all clothing warn at their site and anything that came in
> >contact with them.
>
> I have this image of a bunch of naked runners standing around a oil drum
> with something burning inside and I have no idea why.
>
> Nothing completely burns, there is alway something left.
>
Again if the cops are digging through your incinerator you
are already screwed.

> >10) Strip the paint from the vehicle if invovled in any sort of
> >collision
> >and repaint. Might have to dispose of the vehicle. Try to use the
> >most
> >popular paints. Painting over the the paint is actually worse. Any
> >paint
> >chips left on the run will have the history of the painting process.
> >Multiple layers just make it easier to identify the car.
>
> That can get expensive! There also can be witnesses which always seem to
> be around when you never want them to be.
>
> Even the popular paint can be traced by asking the proper questions to
> the proper person or visiting the correct location. Thought not as easily
> as you would want it to.
>
> All vehicles in SR have VINs that can be tracked by auto drones. A
> vehicle may auto-report its accident to the proper authorites, which I
> could really see. It also deopends on who you run into, and if the
> vehicle is still driveable afterwards.
>
Again if they are this close you are too late.

> >All bedding and clothing not taken with us are incinerated.
>
> Where do you take them to be incinerated? I personally have never been to
> an incinerator before and would really like to know.
>
> Once agian we come back to that being suspicious thing, or having the
> same group go to an incinerator and burn bedding and cloths. People tend
> to remeber such things. When I servered my time at BP, I always
> remembered the unique customers even if they only came in once every 4
> months...like the man with the gold tooth that bought a cappachino every
> 4 months.
>
How about the 55 gallon drum out back?

> >The place is ready to be torched incase we have to leave in a hurry
> >before
> >cleaning the place up.
>
> Depending on the building and more importantly who owned it there may be
> an detailed arson investigation. There is usally an investigation anyway.
> That can lead to talking with people who may have saw the team come and
> go.
>
So? The cops know it was arson. Big deal. That's not the
point.


Dude you've read way too many murder mysteries. The cops
don't pull out all the stops for every bum that gets shot. There are quite a
few people in Seattle (6 Million?). The cops just don't have the resources
to tie up a forensics lab for 3 months for a wageslave who got shot in an
alley. Chances are the gun is in Lake Washington and the crook is milling
around the DMZ somewhere. Most crimes are painfully simple. Just slowing
down the process or making it SEEM like it will take forever drops it a
notch on the priority scale down at the precinct. Time passes, people
forget, files get lost (unintentionally or otherwise). Poirot does not work
for Lone Star and his ilk is pretty damn rare in the police force.
Generally if the cops are chasing a runner (I am assuming a
runner is the perp or this is way off topic) if forensic evidence is
collected anywhere but the crime scene they are in trouble, this means they
have a lead and getting out of town is probably the best bet.
The single biggest risk to a runner or any hired criminal,
is that the employer will roll on them. Hired killers are almost ALWAYS
caught because the wife/lover/husband/girlfriend/mafia boss rolls over and
gives out who he hired. From there the cops know where to look and you are
up the creek. If the employer keeps his mouth shut it's pretty hard to find
a reason why a random group of people would want another person dead other
than robbery, serial killing or an accident.
Message no. 7
From: Slipspeed <atreloar@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 02:53:53 +1000
> Where I work all the electronic locks are wired to a
>computer. The simple reason for this is that you can limit access to
certain
>areas. For example. I have access to the hallway doors and the front door
>but not to the server room (which also has a keypad incidentally). When you
>tap your badge to the readers it checks the ID attached to that badge and
if
>you are cleared to go through that door it unlocks.


That surprises me, but not too much...

> You may say "Ok, so just make the computer offline and
local
>to the building." Well I also have access to various areas of several
floors
>in our downtown office, and the other two outlying offices near mine. Even
>if you ran a dedicated line from each building to each other building
(which
>I believe we have), you still then have the risk of someone splicing into
>the system from an access port or a repeater. Not to mention that dedicated
>lines are pricey, IC is cheap. Simpler to just use existing lines and
secure
>the hell out of the systems on either end.

That's what microwave, laser or satellite links are for... Without LOS
interception, it's almost impossible to break. It CAN be done, yes, but
it's hard. Really secure places wouldn't have that anyway, it'd be all
local. But I can see, depending on the relative security required, land
lines, matrix connections and other things for places where security isn't
quite so vital.

What it really comes down to is a variation of the classic armour vs weapons
race. No matter the security employed, someone somewhere will develop
something that defeats it.

In any case, I stand corrected.

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology. So
there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 8
From: Bryan Covington <bryan.covington@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:56:26 -0500
> > You may say "Ok, so just make the computer offline and
> local
> >to the building." Well I also have access to various areas of several
> floors
> >in our downtown office, and the other two outlying offices near mine.
> Even
> >if you ran a dedicated line from each building to each other building
> (which
> >I believe we have), you still then have the risk of someone splicing into
> >the system from an access port or a repeater. Not to mention that
> dedicated
> >lines are pricey, IC is cheap. Simpler to just use existing lines and
> secure
> >the hell out of the systems on either end.
>
> That's what microwave, laser or satellite links are for... Without LOS
> interception, it's almost impossible to break. It CAN be done, yes, but
> it's hard. Really secure places wouldn't have that anyway, it'd be all
> local. But I can see, depending on the relative security required, land
> lines, matrix connections and other things for places where security isn't
> quite so vital.
>
This makes it even MORE expensive than running a land line.
The whole point of having it on the matrix is that it's cheaper. You already
have those lines in place. No new equipment no new pipes. Satlinks cost
money, big money. I can see this used for highly secure transmissions but
then you still have the possibility of someone hacking the satellite.

> What it really comes down to is a variation of the classic armour vs
> weapons
> race. No matter the security employed, someone somewhere will develop
> something that defeats it.
>
True enough.
Message no. 9
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 05:14:27 +0100
And so it came to happen that Sean Martinez wrote:

> Greetings!!
>
> I have some thoughts on this from the opposite side of the screen and
> also because forensics is my wife's hobby <g>. I feel that there never
> can be the perfect crime and that while one may get away with something a
> few times, eventually they will get caught unless they are very, very
> lucky.
>
> For a lot of the ideas you suggest, I would require the player to have a
> knowledge skill in Forensics at a decent level (2 or 3).
>
> >We prefere either physical mask spell, invisibility, or making sure
> >we take the optical chips with us as we leave. And then there are the
> >other forensic precautions.
>
> Typically I do not encourage runners to stay around at the scene of a run
> especially to look for vid cams data base records. Typially today such
> devices record to a secure location such as a tough safe of cabinet that
> is not obvious. Also places are typically guarded. It is not uncommon for
> data to also be backed up.
>
> You would also have to find the location and get in. That is spending
> too much time at a location, and the more time you spend the more chances
> of getting caught.

That is why legwork is for, finding out hose deatails up front as a back
up plan if the Decker/Rigger hosed it. To get around the whole problem,
use simple skiegmask or maybe masks from dead presidents. Hm, BTW any
masks from Big D. already hitten the streets than?

> Keep in mind security precautions are not always hooked upto the builings
> mainframe, to do so would be stupid.

Than the Decker has to move his rotting corpse inside. But than if it
where like you insist, would not any Shadowrun be a suicide commando?

> Corps and sec forces tend to call for reinforcements when they realize
> there has been a break in, so staying around is very bad.

If the Corpgoons can nail you down until the reinforcement comes flying
in than its over. For this you have to tap the lines that calls the
reinforcements and misderect the request.

> Wouldn't you think that Foresenics is much more advanced in SR than in
> out current day standards? With the advantage of magic, new options
> become available.
>
> >0) Gloves, surgical gloves can leave prints under the right
> >conditions.
>
> You are most correct!

Right, take some cyber arms than. They have a vat grown skinn on them,
if they have the human looking factor. Considered taking those as
gloves?

> >1) Dispose of your weapon after every run.
>
> That can get really expensive really quick and there is the chance that
> the waepon may end up in the authorities hands anyway. Also there is the
> possibly that the person selling you the weapon may be working for
> someone you just hit or are going to hit and may figure out what
> happened.
>
> "The boss was hit by a team using UZI IIIs, didn't we just sell several"

Ah, and so what? most of the weapons used by the average Runner are
bought through shadowy resources. Do you realy think those would go to
the star and say Hi, I know some suspects, I have sold weapons to them?
And then, if the star sues you for having a weapon without permit, than
its over most of the time anyway. To make it simple try using diferent
barrels for your runs, keeps Pistols/Rifles/MP etc B/R on a healthy up
then.

> >2) Use caseless ammo so no shell casings.
>
> Can be good, but depends on the GM and how widespread he wants caseless
> ammo to be. In my game it is not a common site, so it would not be
> impossible to track. (Who said corps or organized crinme would use the
> law? Goto a suspect and threaten them into talking.)
>
> I know what FASA says about caseless ammo and I just do not agree, but
> that is just me.
Yupp. And it is OK for your game, for mine there are caseless rounds and
they work.

> >3) Sterilize spell.
>
> Excellent idea, but do you cast it every few meters you go? All it takes
> is one stray hair you know. Also, casting a spell makes an astral noise,
> so repeted castings would attract any astral guards.
>
> I have seen GMs interperte the spell differently. I had one that rules
> the spell only makes organic material unsable for ritual sorcery, so you
> could still use it for DNA typing. Any GMs have some thoughts on this?

That one is tough to counter, but posible. Use hair nets. Cover your
body with Fat rich bodypait COMPLETELY! make sure that you wash this
stuff away pretty quick after aplying!

> >4) Erase spell signatures.
>
> Good idea, just a good bit of time involved and if you are in combat, it
> is not really an option.

An astral projecting mage worth his salt can delete 3 Spellsignatures of
Force 5 in about fifteen seconds, probably less. so after Combat that
has to be done, If combat does take a OK coral stand, then most runs are
fragged up anyway.

<snip>

> >8) New tires for the vehicle. Unless we used a disposable car.
>
> That can get expensive and also very suspecious. Wouldn't you think
> something is up when you have seen the same group buy several lots of new
> tires in a year. I know I would. Such an search could be time consuming
> but that is what deckers and their bots are for :)

Same here as for the weapons. But there are other posibilietes, simply
go at nigh to your friendly junkyard and steal those tires. Bigo! A load
full of tires for a complete runner season.

> >9) Destroy all clothing warn at their site and anything that came in
> >contact with them.
>
> I have this image of a bunch of naked runners standing around a oil drum
> with something burning inside and I have no idea why.
>
> Nothing completely burns, there is alway something left.

Aha. Kind of a lame here, hm? Even if so, get some acid. Or dump into
the pudget with some cement mixed in. Be nasty, give it anonymosly to
the red cross.

> >10) Strip the paint from the vehicle if invovled in any sort of
> >collision
> >and repaint. Might have to dispose of the vehicle. Try to use the
> >most
> >popular paints. Painting over the the paint is actually worse. Any
> >paint
> >chips left on the run will have the history of the painting process.
> >Multiple layers just make it easier to identify the car.
>
> That can get expensive! There also can be witnesses which always seem to
> be around when you never want them to be.
>
> Even the popular paint can be traced by asking the proper questions to
> the proper person or visiting the correct location. Thought not as easily
> as you would want it to.
>
> All vehicles in SR have VINs that can be tracked by auto drones. A
> vehicle may auto-report its accident to the proper authorites, which I
> could really see. It also deopends on who you run into, and if the
> vehicle is still driveable afterwards.

Aha. So it would report that the owner of the car does not have a valid
driving license or what? This is not 1984, persons in SR does have some
freedoms and the will to have them. Even so, override that VIN and make
send a nice little code that is fine. Make the cost for them a bit less
expensive then the SIN. But in my game those are not there, maybe chips
embeded into the chasis that represent the old ID's that where printed
on metal (the proper term slips my mind).

> >Other precautions we do at the base.
>
> Best precaution is to not have a base. Bases are vulnerable and people do
> notice who comes and goes, at least some of the time.

In Redmond or in Puyallup or in Hells kitchen??? Even so, would those
tell anybody? Annyway, if so have three to four cheap hideouts, those
are better than one expensive. use them irregularly.

> >All food utensils, cups, plates are made of the plastic that dissolve
> >in
> >gasoline. And we dispose of them that way.
> >All drains get chemical treatments to destroy anything stuck there.
>
> That is just being silly, and taking more precautions than neccessary.
>
> >All bedding and clothing not taken with us are incinerated.
>
> Where do you take them to be incinerated? I personally have never been to
> an incinerator before and would really like to know.
>
> Once agian we come back to that being suspicious thing, or having the
> same group go to an incinerator and burn bedding and cloths. People tend
> to remeber such things. When I servered my time at BP, I always
> remembered the unique customers even if they only came in once every 4
> months...like the man with the gold tooth that bought a cappachino every
> 4 months.
>
> >The place is ready to be torched incase we have to leave in a hurry
> >before
> >cleaning the place up.

The whole base paranoia eludes me then. If the corpers want you that
badly that they have found this "base" then better give it up. The corp
most of the time has spent several nuyen to get hold of you and then you
have done something seriously wrong (IMO). But of course such things
happen and those make up the spice of the game, doesn't it?

> Depending on the building and more importantly who owned it there may be
> an detailed arson investigation. There is usally an investigation anyway.
> That can lead to talking with people who may have saw the team come and
> go.

Once again, a burn up in hells kitchen would be followed by an arson
investigation? But, yes as you wrote, it depends on the area your base
is, so you plan accordingly.

> I am not putting down your ideas, but offering a more realistic look at
> them. I have to give you credit for trying, my newest shadowrun group of
> players does not even try and think ahead.

More realistic maybe, but a bit single thought. As posted earlier by
someone If you hit someone in Seatle you have to deal with the Star and
those boys got pretty much to do. If you deal with a corp, you have to
deal with those boys and those measure by money. All you need is maybe
three to four days where the real hot search is beeing underway. After
that the object of the run is most likely not valuable enough for the
corp to keep on their full fledged search. That cuts there bottomline
and that they do not like. So lay low after that for another week and
everythings fine.
--
---> Steadfast...Selfproclaimed Protector of Gerber BABY's
Surfin' through the 'trix is
not like dustin crops boy!
Uh, 089 of 200 it states in Gerber BABY...
Message no. 10
From: Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:12:52 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: Sean Martinez <el_bandit@****.COM>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 14 December 1998 02:21
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions


>Greetings!!
>
>I have some thoughts on this from the opposite side of the screen and
>also because forensics is my wife's hobby <g>. I feel that there
never
>can be the perfect crime and that while one may get away with
something a
>few times, eventually they will get caught unless they are very, very
>lucky.


I think the idea of the original poster was to attempt to eliminate
luck from the picture by being very very cautious. I realise that its
almost impossible to get away clean, but you gotta try.

>For a lot of the ideas you suggest, I would require the player to
have a
>knowledge skill in Forensics at a decent level (2 or 3).


Or default to Int or whatever. More importantly, make the character
make checks to see if
they perform the procedure correctly and in good time.

>>We prefere either physical mask spell, invisibility, or making sure
>>we take the optical chips with us as we leave. And then there are
the
>>other forensic precautions.
>
>Typically I do not encourage runners to stay around at the scene of a
run
>especially to look for vid cams data base records. Typially today
such
>devices record to a secure location such as a tough safe of cabinet
that
>is not obvious. Also places are typically guarded. It is not uncommon
for
>data to also be backed up.
<snip other sec. precautions>

Planning! If the team wants to take out the recorded evidence they
should plan to do so.
This can be acheived by numerous means, although it does imply that
more time than is strictly
neccessary will be spent onsite.

>Wouldn't you think that Foresenics is much more advanced in SR than
in
>out current day standards? With the advantage of magic, new options
>become available.


I agree with that. However, the methods of fooling and fudging will
advanced just as fast.
<snip gloves>
>>1) Dispose of your weapon after every run.
>
>That can get really expensive really quick and there is the chance
that
>the waepon may end up in the authorities hands anyway. Also there is
the
>possibly that the person selling you the weapon may be working for
>someone you just hit or are going to hit and may figure out what
>happened.
>
>"The boss was hit by a team using UZI IIIs, didn't we just sell
several"


I dont think it matters to them how expensive it gets. No amount of
yen is worth 15 years in the slammer.


<snip caseless ammo>

>>3) Sterilize spell.
>
>Excellent idea, but do you cast it every few meters you go? All it
takes
>is one stray hair you know. Also, casting a spell makes an astral
noise,
>so repeted castings would attract any astral guards.
>
>I have seen GMs interperte the spell differently. I had one that
rules
>the spell only makes organic material unsable for ritual sorcery, so
you
>could still use it for DNA typing. Any GMs have some thoughts on
this?


I would suggest using it on a freshly killed body and in any area
where a struggle has taken place.

<snip spell signatures>

>>5) Sprinkle hair samples from several barber shops.
>
>LOL!! You can not be serious. Foresics would rule that out quickly.
First
>of all cut hair has a straight edge where it has been cut. Second,
they
>look for hairs which have a folical (root) on it so that they can do
DNA
>typing. They also look at hair color and type of hair.


Anything to slow the forensics clowns down. You could even scatter
some of your own hair from yiur last visit to the barber to screw em
ober some more :)
<snip chemicals>


>>7) Release appropriate chemicals to mask any scents left behind.
Just
>>to prevent blood hounds or physads with enhanced noses.
>
>There are no such chemicals. While you can overload the blood hound
sense
>of smell, they will pick up the under-scent and follow you. Only by
>crossing through water such as a pond or river can shake a blood
hound.


There may well be such chemicals by 2060. Give you imagination a
chance :)

>>8) New tires for the vehicle. Unless we used a disposable car.
>
>That can get expensive and also very suspecious. Wouldn't you think
>something is up when you have seen the same group buy several lots of
new
>tires in a year. I know I would. Such an search could be time
consuming
>but that is what deckers and their bots are for :)


Well buying a MMG and a thousand rounds of ammo at the same chop shop
is slightly more suspiciuos than the guy with the fetish for brand new
Yokohamas every two weeks. :) Again, small costs like this are nothing
compared to getting nailed for terrorism.

>>9) Destroy all clothing warn at their site and anything that came in
>>contact with them.
>
>I have this image of a bunch of naked runners standing around a oil
drum
>with something burning inside and I have no idea why.
>
>Nothing completely burns, there is alway something left.


I would suggest shredding, soaking in bad chemicals followed by
burning and scattering.

<snip vehicles and paint>
<snip base, utensils, bedding>
>
>Where do you take them to be incinerated? I personally have never
been to
>an incinerator before and would really like to know.


Well, this is what contacts are for. Smithys hospitals, waste
management centres etc...
these places may all have incinerators ... let your certstick do the
talking...

>Once agian we come back to that being suspicious thing, or having the
>same group go to an incinerator and burn bedding and cloths. People
tend
>to remeber such things. When I servered my time at BP, I always
>remembered the unique customers even if they only came in once every
4
>months...like the man with the gold tooth that bought a cappachino
every
>4 months.


The incineators owner is NOT going to call the cops when people want
to incinerate things.
It is a legitamate piece of hardware and things get incierated. Just
exercise the usual caution and things will be OK. (existance of EGMs
aside :)

<snip arson>

I applaud the players who would go to these lengths to hide their
traces. I guess this kinda thing will vary wildly from campaigm to
campaign. What kinda tech are the investigators using to catch
shadowrunners? is the same kind of singlemindedness we see from TV
cops likely to be evident in the "contract cops" of the 2060's? If we
can get an idea of the tech the cops use, we can work out how to
defeat it.

I would suggest serious pre mission preparations.

Hot , hard shower, shave shampoo. Gets rid of skin cells and loose
hair.
short hair and fingernails and impeccable personal hygiene are
essential

Wearing a plastic "shower cap" during the mission as well as gloves
and a sealed suit.

Minimising the amount of gear carried ans making sure it is clear of
identifying marks. This will take extensive
(weapon) B/R tests I presume...

Just some more ideas

Thanks
-- BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>
*Executive Engineer* *FrontLine Games*
Eva's Gyro
Message no. 11
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:26:48 +1000
> >>1) Dispose of your weapon after every run.
> >
> >That can get really expensive really quick and there is the chance
> that
> >the waepon may end up in the authorities hands anyway. Also there is
> the
> >possibly that the person selling you the weapon may be working for
> >someone you just hit or are going to hit and may figure out what
> >happened.
> >
> >"The boss was hit by a team using UZI IIIs, didn't we just sell
> several"
>
>
> I dont think it matters to them how expensive it gets. No amount of
> yen is worth 15 years in the slammer.

*cough* Yes, it matters.

Let's say, for arguments sake, a typical run gives the runners 30,000Y
gross. For a typical team of six, that's 5,000 apiece.

Now, lets say that the team use 1,000Y of weapons each. If they ditch their
weapons each time, that's 20% of their income gone to expenses. Not to
mention the dangers involved in getting new ones.

This sort of activity is fine for groups that are not motivated by profit
and have well-established suppliers, such as terrorist groups and policlubs.
Any profit-oriented group, such as shadowrunners, would NOT go to such
expense. If you add in the other techniques suggested, such as burning
clothing, you're just racking up the expenses.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 12
From: Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:02:12 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 15 December 1998 08:23
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions


>> >>1) Dispose of your weapon after every run.
<snippage>

>> I dont think it matters to them how expensive it gets. No amount of
>> yen is worth 15 years in the slammer.
>
>*cough* Yes, it matters.
>
>Let's say, for arguments sake, a typical run gives the runners
30,000Y
>gross. For a typical team of six, that's 5,000 apiece.
>
>Now, lets say that the team use 1,000Y of weapons each. If they ditch
their
>weapons each time, that's 20% of their income gone to expenses. Not
to
>mention the dangers involved in getting new ones.
>
>This sort of activity is fine for groups that are not motivated by
profit
>and have well-established suppliers, such as terrorist groups and
policlubs.
>Any profit-oriented group, such as shadowrunners, would NOT go to
such
>expense. If you add in the other techniques suggested, such as
burning
>clothing, you're just racking up the expenses.


Mr Watkins, I would say that it depends on the amount of money that is
floating around
in your game and in mine. I would never ask a character to risk his
life for a measly 5 grand.

-- BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>
*Executive Engineer* *FrontLine Games*
Eva's Gyro
Message no. 13
From: Joshua Mumme <grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 02:20:11 -0600
<Lotsa Snippage>
>
>>> >>1) Dispose of your weapon after every run.
><snippage>

Do you really REALLY think I am gonna ditch my weapon focus that I had to
LITERALLY KILL for after a run cause it left metal fragments in the victims
bones?

>>> I dont think it matters to them how expensive it gets. No amount of
>>> yen is worth 15 years in the slammer.

It matters. Even if you ROLL in the Money. <as oure running group tends to
we pull generall no less than 20k a piece for a 8 man team. Then again we
have oure fair share of enemies and allies.>

>>This sort of activity is fine for groups that are not motivated by
>profit
>>and have well-established suppliers, such as terrorist groups and
>policlubs.
>>Any profit-oriented group, such as shadowrunners, would NOT go to
>such
>>expense. If you add in the other techniques suggested, such as
>burning
>>clothing, you're just racking up the expenses.
Racking up the expenses yes. But at the point that the runners can start
shelling out the money like it is suggested they are doing runs when genetic
analisys of any and all evidence is garunteed. Otherwise if they are doing
some digging for information <80% of any run if done the right way and
sometimes the entire run if all go's correctly.> Then leaving behind
evidence like that really isn't an issue.
>
>
>Mr Watkins, I would say that it depends on the amount of money that is
>floating around
>in your game and in mine. I would never ask a character to risk his
>life for a measly 5 grand.

I know oure group started by finally being recognised as a group of
individuals that would would well together and compliment eachothers skills.
>
> -- BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>


Grimlakin
The grim guy carring large weapons with a permit.
Message no. 14
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 04:16:32 EST
In a message dated 98-12-15 01:30:15 EST, you write:

> This sort of activity is fine for groups that are not motivated by profit
> and have well-established suppliers, such as terrorist groups and
policlubs.
> Any profit-oriented group, such as shadowrunners, would NOT go to such
> expense. If you add in the other techniques suggested, such as burning
> clothing, you're just racking up the expenses.

To some extent, a lot of this is overkill. Most times the Corp is going to
figure that the time and expense of tracking the group down Just isnt worth
it. In addition, if the word gets out on the street that takking a run leaves
runners really vulnerable unless they take such extreme precautions, very soon
hiring runners no longer becomes cost effective as the amount of Nuyen a
runner would expect for putting his hide on the line would shoot through the
roof.

The only time I would go as far as this particualr thread had suggested in
covering my tracks is 1) for some reason I had to pull something in a public
area, and or 2) something like that run we discussed where one had to disable
/ kill the crew of that aircraft carrier from the Naval vessels thread!!!
Message no. 15
From: Sean Martinez <el_bandit@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:43:12 -0500
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:37:35 -0500 Bryan Covington
<bryan.covington@****.COM> writes:

> I see caseless as being pretty common regardless of
>what
>anyone says. :)

A lot of people do too, I was offereing an alternative point of view. I
never said they were unheard of, just uncommon. Also most thugs are gonna
pick up a cheap heavy pistol of SMG and not care if it is caseless.

> Not as silly as you may think. Granted a lab will
>sniff out
>a planted stuff under a microscope pretty much as soon as they see it.
>But
>having to check 5000 hairs as opposed to 20 is going to take a lot
>longer.
>This buys the runner time.

All of 2 or 3 hours, forensic teams would look for a hair with a root, no
root move on to the next hair. Also wouldn't it look suspicous to find
5,000 hairs scattered about at the scene of a break in?? The example
given said a "few hairs", not thousands.

Ilness which makes your hair fall out would leave a root, or better yet
do so in clumps so that too would be ruled out.

> How about lye? That'll break down damn near any
>organic
>compound into slime pretty quickly.

You are in a fire fight getting shot beacuse you accidently alerted the
sec forces to your presence and you ware gonna take the time to spread
lye? You will most likely not get every drop of blood..hence my point.

I would not suggest spraying lye into the air since the stuff will
irriate you skin and burn your eyes just for being in the same room. It
can also melt your hair and eat away at your skin. Not something I want
to take with me on a run, one stray round and you get to spend lots of
time at the plastic surgen. Yuck!!

If you or your team mates are bleeding it is already too late, time to
pull out and goto hawii for a few months.

> You can buy lye by the pound.

I do realize that. I also realize what other things you can by by the
drum and if I really wanted too could cook up a really deadly surprise :)

> Not necessarily. If the chemical eats away the
>organics the
>slime is still gonna be basic (acid vs. base) and will keep breaking
>stuff
>down for a while. Although a pool of blood is still a stretch.

Yep! And what about the blood and tissue of the team mate splattered on
the walls or spilled out of sight?

> Again I must say that if this is an issue you're
>already in
>trouble.

Agreed.

> That doesn't always work either folks. I saw a
>bloodhound
>track a girl in a car on the interstate. These puppies are VERY
>sensitive.

WOW! This I did not know, that is very surprising!

> How about the 55 gallon drum out back?

Seattle probably has some wierd law agianst burning stuff in your back
yard, but that is an idea. Tossing it in a high volume dumpster

> Dude you've read way too many murder mysteries.

Actually I do not read Murder Mysteries, my wife's hobby is forensics and
one day that will be her career. Most of the info I have on it comes from
studing actual cases. I personally find the whole field intreasting as
well. She is much better at it than I am

What I was refering to is measures that corporations or individuals who
had a decent amount of influenece could use to possibly track the
runners.

My cousin is a detective and several of my friends are cops, so I do know
how far they will go to track someone who murdered joe average. In cases
where they have forensic evidence and they do not have any real suspects
that they can haul in and interrogate, they will actually send it to a
lab since most people have family that wants justice.

A bum or street person (SINless) is not likely to get a detailed
investigation beyond the basic one at the crime scene.

However, what about the corporation that just lost it's several million
dollar prototype and the plans to go with it? I would think they would do
a rather intensive investigation to track who did it both using both
forensics and shadow contacts.

I also realize that not many GMs who run Shadowrun are going to spend the
time researching forensics just to add that element into the game. One
more reason the wife and I have been working on the role-playing guide to
forensics.

> The single biggest risk to a runner or any hired
>criminal,
>is that the employer will roll on them. Hired killers are almost
>ALWAYS
>caught because the wife/lover/husband/girlfriend/mafia boss rolls over
>and
>gives out who he hired. From there the cops know where to look and you
>are
>up the creek. If the employer keeps his mouth shut it's pretty hard to
>find
>a reason why a random group of people would want another person dead
>other
>than robbery, serial killing or an accident.

Agreed, but keep in mind police today will lean on people until they
break. Your contacts could also let the cat out of the bag as well.

-El Bandit (http://members.aol.com/elbandit/sr/main.html)

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Message no. 16
From: Sean Martinez <el_bandit@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:25:33 -0500
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 05:14:27 +0100 Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
writes:

>And so it came to happen that Sean Martinez wrote:

Yep! Remember Sean?? He's back, in Juno form!!

>That is why legwork is for, finding out hose deatails up front as a
>back
>up plan if the Decker/Rigger hosed it. To get around the whole
>problem,
>use simple skiegmask or maybe masks from dead presidents. Hm, BTW any
>masks from Big D. already hitten the streets than?

Correct! Teams need to do legwork, but often I do not see this happen.
Also keep in mind that you may not be able to get all the information or
possibly learn the location of the camera survielance tapes.

There are no guarrentees in any adventure since there are way to many
variables. Kinda like life!

>Than the Decker has to move his rotting corpse inside. But than if it
>where like you insist, would not any Shadowrun be a suicide commando?

Correct, and hopefully the decker will not trip any passive security
alerts by accident. I have seen it happen. Course I also have seen it
succeded.

Shadowrunners come in many flavors, Suicide Commando is just one! They
are the ones that rush at the building with the assault rifle and wonder
why they die. Then when they do the player goes into your computer room
and plays doom or quake.

>If the Corpgoons can nail you down until the reinforcement comes
>flying
>in than its over. For this you have to tap the lines that calls the
>reinforcements and misderect the request.

That is one way to go, as long as they the phone line. They could also
use a radio or the mobile phone service.

Not so long ago a US military personal used a cell phone to contact his
base to call in fire support.

>Right, take some cyber arms than. They have a vat grown skinn on
>them,
>if they have the human looking factor. Considered taking those as
>gloves?

The 2 essence cost is a bit much for most runners to pay for it. Knowing
the corps, and vat technology, I really would not be surprised if they
had a unique set of finger prints of sometype.

>Ah, and so what? most of the weapons used by the average Runner are
>bought through shadowy resources. Do you realy think those would go
>to
>the star and say Hi, I know some suspects, I have sold weapons to
>them?
>And then, if the star sues you for having a weapon without permit,
>than
>its over most of the time anyway.

That was not what I said, you have taken it out of context.

However in your example, said weapon dealer would cut a deal with the
start to hand you over to them. (Why, maybe the star just busted him and
he does not want to spend the next 200 years in jail, so he makes a deal
so that the star gets a few showy arrests. Which is better, taking a
weapons dealer in or arresting people who have committed numberous
murders?) The star then picks you up, most likely in an undercover meet
or just burst in and arrest you at your home and then you goto trail and
then jail. Course they may just enter and shoot you, since you are
considered armed and dangerous.

There is no "sue" where the Star is concerned, you get arrested.

However what I did say is that the weapon dealer may be an associate of
who you just hit, and may reveal your ID to them since he could be more
afraid of them than your team.

Or said person's agents may suspect who sold you the guns anyway and beat
him till he talks. Not very likely, but could happen 1 time out of a
thousand.

>Yupp. And it is OK for your game, for mine there are caseless rounds
>and
>they work.

Never said I did not allow them, just said they are not common as dirt.

>Cover your
>body with Fat rich bodypait COMPLETELY! make sure that you wash this
>stuff away pretty quick after aplying!

There is a new idea, though I am not familar enough with the body paint.
I assume that it does not rub off and dries as opposed to staying oily?
Be sure to wash the cloths you wear real good :)

It could only be a disadvantage in the form of MO.

As I mentioned in another post, you could just shave your body, but that
would itch after a day or so.

>An astral projecting mage worth his salt can delete 3 Spellsignatures
>of
>Force 5 in about fifteen seconds, probably less. so after Combat that
>has to be done, If combat does take a OK coral stand, then most runs
>are
>fragged up anyway.

That's 15 seconds that you are tied up erasing spell signatures and
another 10 you are leaving and entering your body. Normally this would
not be a probelm but inside a building where there could be other guards
coming, every second counts.

You could also go back after the run and erase the spell sigs as well.
>Same here as for the weapons. But there are other posibilietes,
>simply
>go at nigh to your friendly junkyard and steal those tires. Bigo! A
>load
>full of tires for a complete runner season.

Yummy! Old tires! I would allow it, good idea.

>Aha. Kind of a lame here, hm? Even if so, get some acid. Or dump into
>the pudget with some cement mixed in. Be nasty, give it anonymosly to
>the red cross.

It's too cliche. Gotta mix the cement first, and allow it to harden. That
is more time involved. Toss it in a dumpster, in a sealed bag.

>Aha. So it would report that the owner of the car does not have a
>valid
>driving license or what?

If you are the owner and do not have a vaild driver's license you
probably do not have a car!

> This is not 1984, persons in SR does have
>some
>freedoms and the will to have them. Even so, override that VIN and
>make
>send a nice little code that is fine. Make the cost for them a bit
>less
>expensive then the SIN. But in my game those are not there, maybe
>chips
>embeded into the chasis that represent the old ID's that where
>printed
>on metal (the proper term slips my mind).

The traffic Patrol drones and Vehicle ID is mention in the Lone Star
Book, I just suggested the next step based on real world technology. A
employees at kinkos got arrested for attmepting to counterfit money when
the photocopier he was using took his picture and sent it to corporate
HQ, along with its location.

Currently, we have a working model of a traffic system that would
automatically give out tickets, next step is auto reporting of accidents.


Depends on the GM and how far he wants to take it. He could have
tampering with the VIN cause the car to simple shut down or better yet
send notice to the authorities that you tampered with it. I could see it
since someone mentioned using your credstick, which has your ID, to open
the car door. All of a vehicles important info could be attached to the
VIN, like registration and insurance info.

>In Redmond or in Puyallup or in Hells kitchen??? Even so, would those
>tell anybody? Annyway, if so have three to four cheap hideouts, those
>are better than one expensive. use them irregularly.

No, most likely they would kill you for what you have. Gangs and
squatters in numbers are like that and most people forget about them.

>The whole base paranoia eludes me then. If the corpers want you that
>badly that they have found this "base" then better give it up. The
>corp
>most of the time has spent several nuyen to get hold of you and then
>you
>have done something seriously wrong (IMO). But of course such things
>happen and those make up the spice of the game, doesn't it?

I have to agree!

>Once again, a burn up in hells kitchen would be followed by an arson
>investigation? But, yes as you wrote, it depends on the area your
>base
>is, so you plan accordingly.

If you are in hell's kitchen you have too many other things to worry
about as opoosed to an arson investigation.

>More realistic maybe, but a bit single thought. As posted earlier by
>someone If you hit someone in Seatle you have to deal with the Star
>and
>those boys got pretty much to do. If you deal with a corp, you have
>to
>deal with those boys and those measure by money. All you need is
>maybe
>three to four days where the real hot search is beeing underway.

Actually most lab work today today can takes a few weeks and sometimes
will continue for a few months. I have to ask the wife to be sure, she
knows all the lab work details.

>After
>that the object of the run is most likely not valuable enough for the
>corp to keep on their full fledged search. That cuts there bottomline
>and that they do not like. So lay low after that for another week and
>everythings fine.

I don't know, a few hundred thousand for an incredibley extenisive
investigation compared to the loss of a several million neuyen worth of
data? I could see the expeniture. Forensic procedures will come down in
price by 2060, as new and more cost effective procedures are created.

You may want to lay low for a longer while, since that is the big mistake
a lot of people make. Assuming the corporate bllod hounds are no longer
looking for them.

Out of curiostity, how many GMs use Foresnics in their SR games?

-El Bandit (http://members.aol.com/elbandit/sr/main.html)

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Message no. 17
From: Sean Martinez <el_bandit@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:21:51 -0500
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:02:12 +0200 Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA> writes:

>Mr Watkins, I would say that it depends on the amount of money that
>is
>floating around
>in your game and in mine. I would never ask a character to risk his
>life for a measly 5 grand.

What do you consider minimum payment?

It would also depend on what the characters are doing. Starting
shadowrunners, or ones with a low reputation are not gonna get the high
paying corporate runs starting off. Most likely they will get jobs like
find the missing person, runs involving organized crime, and low threat
data or odject steals.

I am currently running two different groups of Shadowrunner teams. One is
rather new (less than 30 total karma) and the other vetern team it is not
uncommon to see characters with 400 points of total karma or more.

The new team consideres them selves lucky if they pull down 5K each for a
simple run, since they have no reps. Course, the lowest they have pulled
in was 3K once, they average 4K a run and the second to the last run they
went on granted them 25K each.
The next run of theirs will bring in close to 10K each, maybe more.

The vet team generally averages a lot more on a run, usually 10K each,
but that is thanks to the leader who has more negotition than any GM
would want to deal with.

-El Bandit (http://members.aol.com/elbandit/sr/main.html)

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Message no. 18
From: Sean Martinez <el_bandit@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:07:18 -0500
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:12:52 +0200 Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA> writes:

>I think the idea of the original poster was to attempt to eliminate
>luck from the picture by being very very cautious. I realise that its
>almost impossible to get away clean, but you gotta try.

However, some of what he wanted to try simply would not work as well as
one might hope. As you stated, it is almost impossible to get away clean
since there are just too many factors to be concerned with.

>>For a lot of the ideas you suggest, I would require the player to
>have a
>>knowledge skill in Forensics at a decent level (2 or 3).
>Or default to Int or whatever. More importantly, make the character
>make checks to see if
>they perform the procedure correctly and in good time.

At +4 to the roll, I do not see them being all too successful, but that
is just me. I generally do not like allowing some one to default to INT
when the knowledge skilled involved is what I consider a specility skill.
Just how much does the average person know about Forensics? Not that
much, truthfully.

Or allow them to realize that what they want to do would or would not
work with a successful skill roll.

>Planning! If the team wants to take out the recorded evidence they
>should plan to do so.
>This can be acheived by numerous means, although it does imply that
>more time than is strictly
>neccessary will be spent onsite.

Or would would have to spend time getting to the location where the data
is stored. Generally it is too close to the central security room to be
worth hitting, especially if you target is several floors up.

Legwork and planning is defeintiely a must! Especially if you are
breaking into a corporate compound. However, you will find getting a lot
of the good and important info does not come cheap, also one should be
suspicious of really accurate info coming from an inside source since it
could be a trap.

>I agree with that. However, the methods of fooling and fudging will
>advanced just as fast.

People try today and get caught all the time using forensics.

>I dont think it matters to them how expensive it gets. No amount of
>yen is worth 15 years in the slammer.

It does if you don't make the cred to pay the bills. Has anyone ever
tried not taking weapons on a run?? Hmmm, sounds liken something I would
write and run.

>I would suggest using it on a freshly killed body and in any area
>where a struggle has taken place.

I was refering to weather or not the sterlize spelled destroyed organic
matter for purposes of DNA typing. The spell can be read both ways.

>Anything to slow the forensics clowns down. You could even scatter
>some of your own hair from yiur last visit to the barber to screw em
>ober some more :)

Most teams would get suspicious of a lot of hair at a scene. Generally a
human being does not shed THAT much unless you have several illnesses.
With illness you hair would fall out at the roots, leaving LOTS of DNA
evidence.

They also look for hairs with a root, cut hair does not have this so it
would be rule out in a few seconds.

Give forensics teams some credit people.

>There may well be such chemicals by 2060. Give you imagination a
>chance :)

Very very doubtful since you would need something that would destroy oder
completely.

>Well buying a MMG and a thousand rounds of ammo at the same chop shop
>is slightly more suspiciuos than the guy with the fetish for brand
>new
>Yokohamas every two weeks. :) Again, small costs like this are
>nothing
>compared to getting nailed for terrorism.

It leaves a paper trail, one that may or may not be picked up.

>I would suggest shredding, soaking in bad chemicals followed by
>burning and scattering.

Rather vague on the chemical part. Wouldn't it be easier to just dump the
cloths off in a dumpster and how they go off to the incinerator?

>Well, this is what contacts are for. Smithys hospitals, waste
>management centres etc...
>these places may all have incinerators ... let your certstick do the
>talking...

Actually some cities use incinerators to dispose of garbarge, at least I
was told this recently. Your idea is a good one!

>The incineators owner is NOT going to call the cops when people want
>to incinerate things.
>It is a legitamate piece of hardware and things get incierated. Just
>exercise the usual caution and things will be OK. (existance of EGMs
>aside :)

Generally it would be the workers that would see you, not the owner. I
wonder if the workers or the person actually does the tossing into the
incinerator. Hmmm....

>I applaud the players who would go to these lengths to hide their
>traces. I guess this kinda thing will vary wildly from campaigm to
>campaign. What kinda tech are the investigators using to catch
>shadowrunners? is the same kind of singlemindedness we see from TV
>cops likely to be evident in the "contract cops" of the 2060's? If we
>can get an idea of the tech the cops use, we can work out how to
>defeat it.

I also applaud any player who will go to these lengths to hide their
traces. I just thought I would point out what would really work and what
would not. I actually had one player throw a fit a while back when he was
caught after the brutal murder of an innocent bystander. The wife came
into the room and showed him where he went wrong by explaining the
forensic precedures used.

Its not the cops I would worry about, it is the free lance Forensics
teams that can be hired by the corporations to track down someone who
just broke in and either stole a billion nuyen prototype or mascred the
sec force team. Or worse the corporate forenics teams. As time goes on
forenics procedures are going to become cheaper and cheaper to do.

Also do not believe what you see on TV, generally the truth of the
situation is sacrified for a good story line.

The wife and I are working on a book about forenics for any role-playing
game system for publication somtime in the year 2000.

>I would suggest serious pre mission preparations.

Yep! I suggest that a team spend at least 1 week scoping out the place
they are gonna hit and then make plans.

>Hot , hard shower, shave shampoo. Gets rid of skin cells and loose
>hair.
>short hair and fingernails and impeccable personal hygiene are
>essential

Excellent! I was hoping someone would remember this! You can also shave
all your body hair, but few runners would go that far. I could see them
shaving their heads though.

>Wearing a plastic "shower cap" during the mission as well as gloves
>and a sealed suit.

A treuly sealed suit is not real stealthy and could get hot or worse the
face plate (if it has one) could fog up! Ther is a cream on the market
that is suppossed to prvent that though, I think. The paint-ballers on
the list can tell us for sure.

I wonder how a suit of spandex would fair? Most likely have to have it
specialy made, course considering how bizzare fashions are in SR one may
be available and probably has wings or only come in neon colors.

>Minimising the amount of gear carried ans making sure it is clear of
>identifying marks. This will take extensive
>(weapon) B/R tests I presume...

Most weapons bought in the shadows usually are devoid of serial numbers,
and minimizing your gear is a smart thing! Shadowrunners should not be
breaking in looking to engade the corp sec team.

If you are caught and arrested with the weapon, a simple ballistics test
could pin you to the crime scene.

-El Bandit (http://members.aol.com/elbandit/sr/main.html)

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Message no. 19
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:02:17 -0600
>From: Sean Martinez
>Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 8:26 AM

>>And so it came to happen that Sean Martinez wrote:
>
>Yep! Remember Sean?? He's back, in Juno form!!

MILHOUSE!!! You traded my soul for a lousy Juno account?!

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 20
From: Bryan Covington <bryan.covington@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:20:49 -0500
> > I see caseless as being pretty common regardless of
> >what
> >anyone says. :)
>
> A lot of people do too, I was offereing an alternative point of view. I
> never said they were unheard of, just uncommon. Also most thugs are gonna
> pick up a cheap heavy pistol of SMG and not care if it is caseless.
>
I know. Just my opinion.

> > Not as silly as you may think. Granted a lab will
> >sniff out
> >a planted stuff under a microscope pretty much as soon as they see it.
> >But
> >having to check 5000 hairs as opposed to 20 is going to take a lot
> >longer.
> >This buys the runner time.
>
> All of 2 or 3 hours, forensic teams would look for a hair with a root, no
> root move on to the next hair. Also wouldn't it look suspicous to find
> 5,000 hairs scattered about at the scene of a break in?? The example
> given said a "few hairs", not thousands.
>
Suspicious? Isn't the missing equipment and half dozen dead
or unconscious guards going to indicate that something is up? I wasn't
thinking that the 5000 hairs were to keep them from thinking there was a
break in. If they have a forensics team looking for hairs I think they've
already figured out that someone was in the building. This just makes it
tougher for them to find the right hair. I also think that if you saturate
the area with hairs you are going to cause more than a 2-3 hour delay.
People can't just glance at a floor full of hair and pick out the hairs with
roots. A good covering of hair will slow them down for days, not hours. Just
finding the hairs that weren't planted will take a day or more.


> Ilness which makes your hair fall out would leave a root, or better yet
> do so in clumps so that too would be ruled out.
>
> > How about lye? That'll break down damn near any
> >organic
> >compound into slime pretty quickly.
>
> You are in a fire fight getting shot beacuse you accidently alerted the
> sec forces to your presence and you ware gonna take the time to spread
> lye? You will most likely not get every drop of blood..hence my point.
>
<snip lye>

> If you or your team mates are bleeding it is already too late, time to
> pull out and goto hawii for a few months.
>
This was my point from the beginning. Once the corpsec
starts shooting forensics is a moot point.


> > That doesn't always work either folks. I saw a
> >bloodhound
> >track a girl in a car on the interstate. These puppies are VERY
> >sensitive.
>
> WOW! This I did not know, that is very surprising!
>
> > How about the 55 gallon drum out back?
>
> Seattle probably has some wierd law agianst burning stuff in your back
> yard, but that is an idea. Tossing it in a high volume dumpster
>
Ever been to Newark? Staten Island? Grier Heights? If the
cops are even in these areas (all kin to Redmond or Pollyupp(sp?)) they are
not going to hassle people over burning stuff in drums. Particularly in the
winter. This is an ordinance for middle-high class areas in the ghetto, no
one cares.


> > Dude you've read way too many murder mysteries.
>
> Actually I do not read Murder Mysteries, my wife's hobby is forensics and
> one day that will be her career. Most of the info I have on it comes from
> studing actual cases. I personally find the whole field intreasting as
> well. She is much better at it than I am
>
> What I was refering to is measures that corporations or individuals who
> had a decent amount of influenece could use to possibly track the
> runners.
>
> My cousin is a detective and several of my friends are cops, so I do know
> how far they will go to track someone who murdered joe average. In cases
> where they have forensic evidence and they do not have any real suspects
> that they can haul in and interrogate, they will actually send it to a
> lab since most people have family that wants justice.
>
Where do they work? The overall number of cases is going to
impact the level of investigation. In a city with 20 murders a year those 20
get a lot more scrutiny than a city with 400+ murders a year.

> A bum or street person (SINless) is not likely to get a detailed
> investigation beyond the basic one at the crime scene.
>
> However, what about the corporation that just lost it's several million
> dollar prototype and the plans to go with it? I would think they would do
> a rather intensive investigation to track who did it both using both
> forensics and shadow contacts.
>
> I also realize that not many GMs who run Shadowrun are going to spend the
> time researching forensics just to add that element into the game. One
> more reason the wife and I have been working on the role-playing guide to
> forensics.
>
Perhaps I just have a darker view of the world of 2060 than
you, I don't know. I see it as a place where wealth buys protection and the
poor get overlooked. In many ways this is true today, but not to the degree
I think it will be by 2060.
I'm not knocking your suggestions. Forensics teams are hard
core and if you get a lab on your ass you are in it deep. But this is my
point from the beginning. IF a lab is on to you YOU ARE AS GOOD AS CAUGHT.
Get out of town.
If you whack someone with enough clout, or rob someone of
something valuable enough they are gonna go a long way to pop your ass. Get
out of town.
Many times the corp is not going to see it as economically
viable to chase down a break-in. In many cases there are those at the corp
who were waiting for a chance to shut the project down and this is it. They
don't WANT the break-in investigated.

Personally I love forensics (my girlfriend always gets
grossed out and bored by "Medical Detectives"). I doubt I'm as into it as
you or your wife since I don't want to do it for a living, but I still find
the field fascinating.

> > The single biggest risk to a runner or any hired
> >criminal,
> >is that the employer will roll on them. Hired killers are almost
> >ALWAYS
> >caught because the wife/lover/husband/girlfriend/mafia boss rolls over
> >and
> >gives out who he hired. From there the cops know where to look and you
> >are
> >up the creek. If the employer keeps his mouth shut it's pretty hard to
> >find
> >a reason why a random group of people would want another person dead
> >other
> >than robbery, serial killing or an accident.
>
> Agreed, but keep in mind police today will lean on people until they
> break. Your contacts could also let the cat out of the bag as well.
>
True enough.
Message no. 21
From: Bryan Covington <bryan.covington@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:26:44 -0500
> As I mentioned in another post, you could just shave your body, but that
> would itch after a day or so.
>
Bathe in Nair!!
Message no. 22
From: Bryan Covington <bryan.covington@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:31:49 -0500
> >After
> >that the object of the run is most likely not valuable enough for the
> >corp to keep on their full fledged search. That cuts there bottomline
> >and that they do not like. So lay low after that for another week and
> >everythings fine.
>
> I don't know, a few hundred thousand for an incredibley extenisive
> investigation compared to the loss of a several million neuyen worth of
> data? I could see the expeniture. Forensic procedures will come down in
> price by 2060, as new and more cost effective procedures are created.
>
> You may want to lay low for a longer while, since that is the big mistake
> a lot of people make. Assuming the corporate bllod hounds are no longer
> looking for them.
>
The corp IMHO will only keep looking in earnest if they have
a reasonable hope of recovering the data. Most corps are going to know that
as soon as the data hits the streets it isn't worth getting back as everyone
has it. It would probably be cheaper at that point to do some legwork and
hire they're own team to steal it back. (there's a run idea :).

> Out of curiostity, how many GMs use Foresnics in their SR games?
>
I have players on the list so I won't say. But even if I did
how would they know until they got busted? My guys haven't been busted for
it...yet.
Message no. 23
From: Bryan Covington <bryan.covington@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:42:07 -0500
> >After
> >that the object of the run is most likely not valuable enough for the
> >corp to keep on their full fledged search. That cuts there bottomline
> >and that they do not like. So lay low after that for another week and
> >everythings fine.
>
> I don't know, a few hundred thousand for an incredibley extenisive
> investigation compared to the loss of a several million neuyen worth of
> data? I could see the expeniture. Forensic procedures will come down in
> price by 2060, as new and more cost effective procedures are created.
>
IMHO the only way the corp is gonna keep looking in earnest
is if they have a reasonable chance of getting the data back before it's
sold. Once it hits the streets it'd probably be easier to do their own
legwork, figure out who stole it and steal it back.
The only other reason is if they want to "send a message" to
the runners but then they run the risk of pissing off all the other runners
and never being able to hire anyone. And it is still not economically
viable.
In some cases there are several people inside the corp who
don't WANT the data found. Maybe they've been looking for a way to shut down
that project for months, maybe they want to get the head man fired cause
they're doing his wife, whatever. There are just as many reasons NOT to
catch a thief as there are to catch one.

> Out of curiostity, how many GMs use Foresnics in their SR games?
>
>
Maybe, maybe not. No one really knows. :) (I have a few
players on the list and don't want them to get too nervous...or maybe I do.
:)
Message no. 24
From: Bryan Covington <bryan.covington@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:06:50 -0500
At +4 to the roll, I do not see them being all too successful, but that
is just me. I generally do not like allowing some one to default to INT
when the knowledge skilled involved is what I consider a specility skill.
Just how much does the average person know about Forensics? Not that
much, truthfully.

Or allow them to realize that what they want to do would or would not
work with a successful skill roll.

We made PCs based on ourselves one time (in another game system) and
according to the description of the skills everyone who had cable TV had at
least a point in nearly every skill in the book. I've watched Law & Order
daily for months and catch Medical Detectives as much as I can. I'd say I
have at least a passing knowledge of forensics. Plus its a knowledge skill
and those are cheap.


Most teams would get suspicious of a lot of hair at a scene. Generally a
human being does not shed THAT much unless you have several illnesses.
With illness you hair would fall out at the roots, leaving LOTS of DNA
evidence.

They also look for hairs with a root, cut hair does not have this so it
would be rule out in a few seconds.

I'm talking about pouring a bag of hair all over the dead body and
the area around it. There's a corpse. Suspicion is a moot point. Someone was
here. Someone murdered this guy. I'm just trying to slow the process. I'm
talking about the previous idea of dumping a bag full of hair from a barber
shop. As soon as they take a good look at the individual hairs they'll see
that they are planted but it takes them that much longer

Give forensics teams some credit people.


>Wearing a plastic "shower cap" during the mission as well as gloves
>and a sealed suit.

A treuly sealed suit is not real stealthy and could get hot or worse the
face plate (if it has one) could fog up! Ther is a cream on the market
that is suppossed to prvent that though, I think. The paint-ballers on
the list can tell us for sure.

The simplest solution is a double pane faceplate. The air in the
middle acts as a buffer and keeps the glass from fogging. This is in all the
primo paintball face guards.
Message no. 25
From: westln@***.EDU
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:42:00 -0500
Well I must say I'm surprised by the response. Last time I brought it up it
died rather quickly. I have enjoyed the feedback and noticed my poor
initial content of my first post. I failed to explain some of the finer
points.

1) I didn't mean to imply we dump a pound of hair at the site. Usually its
only a few strands that we collected from random hair stylists shop.
Preferably one from a comb which might have the root. Might as well have
the ritual magic directed at some poor dupe than us.

2) We wouldn't replace all weapons. Just weapons that were actually used.
It would really suck if after 3 years your busted in a traffic stop. They
find a gun. The star runs a ballistic checks. Why look at this long list of
unsolved murders that match the tests.

3) Our mage corrected me off line with regards to the tires, and foot print
evidence. He claims to gouge out a few parts of the tread. He keeps them.
After the run he uses the fix spell to repair them.

4) As for the scent issue. I was more interested in adding something to
mask the scent to the environment. I would hope it would destroy it but
that would be asking to much. But with the phermons we can buy in Shadowrun
you should be able to provide altered scents which might confuse issues. I
would suggest using such precautions in places one lingers for a long time.
(That closet you hid in till the staff left is a good place to spread the
chemcals). Why make it easy for the physad with enhanced smell identify
you. GM wise it would be like adding a target modifier to pick up the scent.

5) As for the blood samples there are a couple of in game options I can
think off. Take a cancerand that is keyed to release when exposed to the
chemicals used in a blood test or DNA mapping proceedure. I would assume a
chemical engineer can find appropriate chemicals to corrupt or give false
results. Inject yourself before the run. If you get shot the blood is
already taken care of. It could still be used for ritual magic. You should
be able to add DNA fragments in the cancerand. When the test is run there
would be extra bands which don't match you if you had records on line.

Am I right remebering the chemical lumninal that can be sprayed over an
area. It reacts to blood such that it glows when exposed to UV. There
should be other chemicals which will cause a positive effect.

We have also used earth elementals and told them to take all the blood on
the ground underground. Fire elementals to torch any samples it could find.
Plus the occasional elemental spells acid/fire.

6) Burning things, I completely agree that one rarely provides the right
environment to get everything(especially teeth, bones & medical implants).
We have tended to use fire elmentals, as well as garbage/medical
incinerators, smelters & cremetorium. We are a bit magic heavy in our group
for whoever is interacting with employees is either masked with a spell or
invisibly goes in and burns it.

7) As for burning a base. That can bring attention not to mention wasting a
warehouse you might want to use in another year when its safe again. I'd
suggest only doing that if you had to leave in a hurry without cleaning the
place. Not to mention the gang/fixer you rented it from might object.

ANd finally a question that seemed to have gotten lost what precautions do
other groups take? I know that some say SR is an abstract system I just
role my crimal skill or forensic skill to avoid leaving clues. I'm curious
if there is anything in particlur groups do?

-
Lorden
Message no. 26
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:03:41 +1000
Lorden writes:
> 2) We wouldn't replace all weapons. Just weapons that were actually used.
> It would really suck if after 3 years your busted in a traffic stop. They
> find a gun. The star runs a ballistic checks. Why look at this
> long list of
> unsolved murders that match the tests.

Umm... in MY game, at least, licensed weapons have ballistic data on file
already. Therefore, the runners are being caught with unlicensed weapons.
That's a big no-no by itself (not to mention all the illegal cyber the
players probably have on them).

More to the point, you can get around this far more readily: have one set of
weapons you use on runs, and another you use for personal defense (and so
will have on you in general day-to-day business). On a run, if you're pulled
over by the cops and they take your weapon, odds are you're screwed anyway.
You're better off doing things like driving nice and safely, and having your
police scanner radio picking up locations of things like random-breath
testing stations.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 27
From: Sean Martinez <el_bandit@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:31:14 -0500
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:26:44 -0500 Bryan Covington
<bryan.covington@****.COM> writes:

> Bathe in Nair!!

Ouchie!! That sounds rather painful to me

-El Bandit (http://members.aol.com/elbandit/sr/main.html)

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Message no. 28
From: Sean Martinez <el_bandit@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:35:51 -0500
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:31:49 -0500 Bryan Covington
<bryan.covington@****.COM> writes:

> The corp IMHO will only keep looking in earnest if
>they have
>a reasonable hope of recovering the data. Most corps are going to know
>that
>as soon as the data hits the streets it isn't worth getting back as
>everyone
>has it. It would probably be cheaper at that point to do some legwork
>and
>hire they're own team to steal it back. (there's a run idea :).

I can see that and have done just that in past adventures, especially if
the team decided to fence the goods or something "extra" they stolen
during the run that was unique.

Nothing worse than showing up at a meet with a buyer only to discover it
is a set up.

Now, if the players slaughtered the entire corpsec team or killed some
VIP, they would defiently start a forensics investigation provided there
was evidance left behind.

> I have players on the list so I won't say. But even if
>I did
>how would they know until they got busted? My guys haven't been busted
>for
>it...yet.

That is where I am fortunete, none of my players in either of the two
groups that I run are on the list. Makes life a lot easier for me. :)

-El Bandit (http://members.aol.com/elbandit/sr/main.html)

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Message no. 29
From: Sean Martinez <el_bandit@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:35:32 -0500
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:42:00 -0500 westln@***.EDU writes:

>Well I must say I'm surprised by the response. Last time I brought it
>up it
>died rather quickly. I have enjoyed the feedback and noticed my poor
>initial content of my first post. I failed to explain some of the
>finer
>points.

I think only a few on the list really know alot about forensics or really
enjoy the field.

>1) I didn't mean to imply we dump a pound of hair at the site. Usually
>its
>only a few strands that we collected from random hair stylists shop.
>Preferably one from a comb which might have the root. Might as well
>have
>the ritual magic directed at some poor dupe than us.

I talked to my wife's Forensics science professor, he stated that it
would take less than 30 seconds to determine the single hair was cut by
using a microscope.

As for as ritual magic goes, a hair cut at a barbers shop is not usable
as a link for the sending. Hair contains no DNA, since it is dead. The
hair root conatins DNA. I am pretty sure that a mage would be able to
determine that the hair was unusable for a ritual link long before he or
she started the ritual.

The SR 2nd edition rulebook specfically states on page 135 that the
Ritual link must contain the targets DNA pattern. I am sure 3rd edition
will say the same thing once Ritual Magic rules are printed.

>2) We wouldn't replace all weapons. Just weapons that were actually
>used.
>It would really suck if after 3 years your busted in a traffic stop.
>They
>find a gun. The star runs a ballistic checks. Why look at this long
>list of
>unsolved murders that match the tests.

You could also steal weapons and use them for a time and dispose of them.
Depends on how you dispose of them too. A fiber with some of your blood
on it stuck in the gun could also point in your direction. That would be
a very, very, very long shot though.

You are most correct about the star running checks and matching unsolved
murders. Some smart alec may even adjest them so they fit your gun
anyway.

>3) Our mage corrected me off line with regards to the tires, and foot
>print
>evidence. He claims to gouge out a few parts of the tread. He keeps
>them.
>After the run he uses the fix spell to repair them.

That is a good idea, just hope the GM doesen't decide that you caused a
week point that during the escape chase blows out, assuming non-run
flats. Course, run-flats seem to only have the added benefit of armor
now.

However the fix spell has a limit of magic rating in kilograms so tire
weight comes into play. Most tires average 15-20 pounds which translates
into 6.8 to 9 kilograms. You have to be at least an initiate of grade one
to really effectively succede in the light weight tire. :)

Course one could alweays use a focus if they were not an initiate.

>4) As for the scent issue. I was more interested in adding something
>to
>mask the scent to the environment. I would hope it would destroy it
>but
>that would be asking to much. But with the phermons we can buy in
>Shadowrun
>you should be able to provide altered scents which might confuse
>issues.

Ah, no. There is no way to mask a scent, you would have to destroy your
scent to keep a blood hound from finding you. Enhanced phermones only
makes your scent that much stronger, and anything that would "alter you
scent" would give you that scent and the blood hounds would still zero in
on you.

>5) As for the blood samples there are a couple of in game options I
>can
>think off. Take a cancerand that is keyed to release when exposed to
>the
>chemicals used in a blood test or DNA mapping proceedure.

Umm, that is not how Carcerands work in the first place. They degenerate
over time inside the body. I really do not think you want it to release
chemiclas inside your blood stream.

>Am I right remebering the chemical lumninal that can be sprayed over
>an
>area. It reacts to blood such that it glows when exposed to UV. There
>should be other chemicals which will cause a positive effect.

I am not following you here, can you be more specfic?

>We have also used earth elementals and told them to take all the blood
>on
>the ground underground. Fire elementals to torch any samples it could
>find.
>Plus the occasional elemental spells acid/fire.

It would depend on the GM in this situation. I personally would not allow
such a command of a fire elemental, unless it was "torch the room" or
"Destroy That Blood pool" since elementals are not really that
intelligent.

As for the earth elemental, I personally can not see them just pulling
blood into the ground, they could dig and over turn it as a physical
service. The ground is an astral barrier, hence why they must do a
physical service.

Spells may or may not get all the evidance. All it takes is a single spec
that the forensics team can pull up.

>6) Burning things, I completely agree that one rarely provides the
>right
>environment to get everything(especially teeth, bones & medical
>implants).
>We have tended to use fire elmentals, as well as garbage/medical
>incinerators, smelters & cremetorium. We are a bit magic heavy in our
>group
>for whoever is interacting with employees is either masked with a
>spell or
>invisibly goes in and burns it.

It is my understanding that is it usually the employees who actually
throw stuff into the incinerator, but I do plan on visting several such
places this week and asking a few questions.

Access to medical incinerators is rather restricted from what I have
seen.

In personbally think the best option is too drop off the stuff to be
incinerated in a garbage can on the otherside of the city since I try and
go for as little interaction as possible with people after the run. Once
it does to the dump, even if it does not get incinerated it is most
likely not gonna be found.

>7) As for burning a base. That can bring attention not to mention
>wasting a
>warehouse you might want to use in another year when its safe again.
>I'd
>suggest only doing that if you had to leave in a hurry without
>cleaning the
>place. Not to mention the gang/fixer you rented it from might object.

I just do not keep a base, I find it easier. Better yet have a mobile
base such as a van. The ganger or Fixer just might want to you pay them
for their loss, which most likely will not be cheap.

>ANd finally a question that seemed to have gotten lost what
>precautions do
>other groups take? I know that some say SR is an abstract system I
>just
>role my crimal skill or forensic skill to avoid leaving clues. I'm
>curious
>if there is anything in particlur groups do?

You may want to see Gattaga, which delt with the idea of hidding one self
in a high tech society. I have not seen it yet, but plan on renting it
this week.

What I have described is several possible ways that forensics can be used
to gather information on who just hit a site. Today, Forensics are
usually only involved in murder cases and usually to tighten the noose
around a suspect.

I am really surprised that nobody realized or mentioned the runners best
defense when it comes to Forensics. It is pretty simple, If you do not
have a SIN you are rather hard to be fingered by forensics unless you
already was a suspect.

Now this once agian falls to how the GM runs SINs and SINless in his or
her game. In my game if you have a SIN you DNA may very well be on file.
If you have a Doc Wagon contract a sample is with them. (Never run
agianst Doc Wagon) Ever have any sort of organ regrown? Got Bioware?
Ex-Military or Corp Sec? Your tissue sample is on file somewhere, if not
a DNA pattern is. Got a really good fake SIN?? Your DNA could be once
agian on file.

I am a believer that any child born in a hospitol will have been assigned
a SIN. Generally, unless you live on the streets you grew up with a SIN.
If you have any sort of formatted education, you have a SIN. While I do
allow one to erase his "SIN" there will always be the chance (however
small) that somewhere out there is Data on the real person.

Notice I said, "Could be" in a lot of my examples. I have never seen any
referance to a SIN other than a criminal SIN having assigned a DNA
pattern to it, but it would not surprise me. I often go back and forth on
the issue. Anyone has any thoughst about this?

Forensics only really works when you can compare the samples and data to
something. An investigatuion could be done and the results filed away for
later.

SR is a very abstract system, which is probably why a lot of people like
it so much.

I generally try and keep as much dice rolling out of it as possible and
decide based on what I and the wife knows about Forensics verses what
happened at the site. Some people may consider this an rather evil GM
ploy, but hey; I am an evil GM :)

A simpler system could have the character roll their foresnics skill
agiants a target number of the investigator's skill and vice versa. Net
success win out. The more successes the better the team hid their tracks,
or the more evidance they have on you.

-El Bandit (http://members.aol.com/elbandit/sr/main.html)

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Message no. 30
From: Sean Martinez <el_bandit@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:36:42 -0500
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:20:49 -0500 Bryan Covington
<bryan.covington@****.COM> writes:

> Suspicious? Isn't the missing equipment and half dozen
>dead
>or unconscious guards going to indicate that something is up?

Well, yeah there is that, especially if the team pulled it off without
getting caught!

>I also think that if you
>saturate
>the area with hairs you are going to cause more than a 2-3 hour
>delay.

Nope, a quick look under a microscope is all that is needed. They have a
50/50 chance of seeing the cut end first. After 5 hairs like this, they
would figure out what happened.

> This was my point from the beginning. Once the
>corpsec
>starts shooting forensics is a moot point.

So true.

> Ever been to Newark? Staten Island? Grier Heights? If
>the
>cops are even in these areas (all kin to Redmond or Pollyupp(sp?))
>they are
>not going to hassle people over burning stuff in drums. Particularly
>in the
>winter. This is an ordinance for middle-high class areas in the
>ghetto, no
>one cares.

Nope, don't get to see much of the big cities when I travel always on
buiness or in a rush. Really regret not seeing the sights or how people
treuly live in the urban sprawl.

I was guessing about the ordance (since we have one where I live), I can
believe that no one cares in the ghetto.

> Where do they work? The overall number of cases is
>going to
>impact the level of investigation. In a city with 20 murders a year
>those 20
>get a lot more scrutiny than a city with 400+ murders a year.

The detective is in Atlanta, cops are local. The detctive is always busy,
I don't imagine that will ever change. Everytime a body is found there is
a forensics investigation. Its becoming more and more standard. Howerver,
half the time it is pretty obvious who killed who, most crimes are not
really that involved and most criminals are not that bright.

> Perhaps I just have a darker view of the world of 2060
>than
>you, I don't know. I see it as a place where wealth buys protection
>and the
>poor get overlooked. In many ways this is true today, but not to the
>degree
>I think it will be by 2060.

I have always considered my view of Shadowrun pretty dark (but not as
dark as it could be) and I would have to agree that wealth does buy
protection nad the poor does get over looked. However, I also see
occassional glimmers of hope as the Star actually tries to do its job
protecting the city. Course, the next run can cast a bad shadow on the
Star.

Maybe I see the entire world as gray, that would be the best discription.


> I'm not knocking your suggestions. Forensics teams are
>hard
>core and if you get a lab on your ass you are in it deep. But this is
>my
>point from the beginning. IF a lab is on to you YOU ARE AS GOOD AS
>CAUGHT.
>Get out of town.

Yep, I would really have to agree. I am really only offering what
measures an investigation could take.

> If you whack someone with enough clout, or rob someone
>of
>something valuable enough they are gonna go a long way to pop your
>ass. Get
>out of town.

Take that long deserved vaccation to Hawii :)

Course, if you have stolen something really big you will have more people
looking for you than just the owners. Every two bit thug may want a piece
of you just for the item.

> Many times the corp is not going to see it as
>economically
>viable to chase down a break-in. In many cases there are those at the
>corp
>who were waiting for a chance to shut the project down and this is it.
>They
>don't WANT the break-in investigated.

True enough, a lot depends on the overall situation and what everyone
really expects and wants. With just a break in, there most likely would
not be a real forensics investigation. Kill someone and that will change.

> Personally I love forensics (my girlfriend always
>gets
>grossed out and bored by "Medical Detectives"). I doubt I'm as into it
>as
>you or your wife since I don't want to do it for a living, but I still
>find
>the field fascinating.

I suspected that you probably were into Forensics, something tells me you
and I are really it for the list community :)

I do not think anyone is into it as much as my wife, she scares most of
my friends.

-El Bandit (http://members.aol.com/elbandit/sr/main.html)

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Message no. 31
From: Sean Martinez <el_bandit@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:34:57 -0500
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:42:07 -0500 Bryan Covington
<bryan.covington@****.COM> writes:
> The only other reason is if they want to "send a
>message" to
>the runners but then they run the risk of pissing off all the other
>runners
>and never being able to hire anyone.

I personally can not believe that, simply beacuse in some ways it would
be like the USA always giving into terriosts demands. Actions like that
open a doorway that generally can not be closed, since runners would
never have to fear reprisal form the corps. Course, I believe it also
depends on what the runners did as well and how bruised the corporate
image is.

A corp may not come after you if you broke in a secured area and just
stole some data, but may if you also destroyed the complex and killed 50
people (reasearchers and corp sec).

There will always be the darker elements in the Shadowrunner community
that would not care and deal with the corp, even given the repuation for
tracking down runners.

> In some cases there are several people inside the corp
>who
>don't WANT the data found. Maybe they've been looking for a way to
>shut down
>that project for months, maybe they want to get the head man fired
>cause
>they're doing his wife, whatever. There are just as many reasons NOT
>to
>catch a thief as there are to catch one.

There are so many variables before, during and after a corporate run to
consider that anything is possible. Course, it is also just as possible
that the corp has its own crime scene investigators who would come in
anyway as standard practice once they are told about it as it is that
someone in the corp hired the team.

-El Bandit (http://members.aol.com/elbandit/sr/main.html)

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Message no. 32
From: Sean Martinez <el_bandit@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:35:16 -0500
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:06:50 -0500 Bryan Covington
<bryan.covington@****.COM> writes:

> We made PCs based on ourselves one time (in another game
>system) and
>according to the description of the skills everyone who had cable TV
>had at
>least a point in nearly every skill in the book. I've watched Law &
>Order
>daily for months and catch Medical Detectives as much as I can. I'd
>say I
>have at least a passing knowledge of forensics. Plus its a knowledge
>skill
>and those are cheap.

Sounds a lot like the "Time Lords RPG." I once made a character like that
as well. It was not as frightning as my wife's. I love to watch Law &
Order when I get the chance, a lot of the stories can make excellent
shadowruns by simply twisting elements around. That and the show is one
of the best law dramas on IMHO.

> I'm talking about pouring a bag of hair all over the dead body
>and
>the area around it. There's a corpse. Suspicion is a moot point.
>Someone was
>here. Someone murdered this guy. I'm just trying to slow the process.
>I'm
>talking about the previous idea of dumping a bag full of hair from a
>barber
>shop. As soon as they take a good look at the individual hairs they'll
>see
>that they are planted but it takes them that much longer

Actually, after looking at the first 5 hairs they would figure out what
happened and discard hair that matches that type or length. Better yet
assign the search to the new guy in the lab :)

The investigation team may search in other areas where a viable sample
may be found. It really depends on how good or dedicated the team is and
how "clean" the surronding areas are.

> The simplest solution is a double pane faceplate. The air in
>the
>middle acts as a buffer and keeps the glass from fogging. This is in
>all the
>primo paintball face guards.

I did not know that! The only chance I have had to play paintball was
many years ago and I had the very basic mask. Got shot a lot after the
mask fogged up and I tried to be heroic.

-El Bandit (http://members.aol.com/elbandit/sr/main.html)

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Message no. 33
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:49:38 -0600
From: Sean Martinez
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 8:31 AM

>> Bathe in Nair!!
>
>Ouchie!! That sounds rather painful to me

You and me both....

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><|>
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/<
>

Bandit, I've been meaning to ask you...what the heck is this doo-dad in
your sig?

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 34
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 06:39:26 +1000
>>I also think that if you
>>saturate
>>the area with hairs you are going to cause more than a 2-3 hour
>>delay.
>
>Nope, a quick look under a microscope is all that is needed. They have a
>50/50 chance of seeing the cut end first. After 5 hairs like this, they
>would figure out what happened.

Sure - but they still have to search every hair if they want proof or a
ritual sample. Knowing that 99.9% of the samples are garbage doesn't help
identify the real one. It may only be a matter of quickly identifying the
non-valid hairs and tossing them out, but that's still going to take forever.

Lady Jestyr

- The Australian dream: Football, meat pies and Holden cars. -
- Holdens are American, meat pies are British, and football is stupid. -
- jestyr@*******.com.au URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr -
Message no. 35
From: Sean Martinez <el_bandit@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:40:58 -0500
On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:49:38 -0600 Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET> writes:

>> () () () () () <() <()> ()> ()
>> .I. \|. \|/ // X \ | < |
<|>
>> /\ >\ /< >\ /< >\ /< >
/<
>>
>
>Bandit, I've been meaning to ask you...what the heck is this doo-dad
>in
>your sig?

Reason number 137 to fear technology...The ASCII Macarena <g>

Juno's signature line was too short to add that little tidbit in and with
my luck it looks funny on everyone's view screen.

-El Bandit (http://members.aol.com/elbandit/sr/main.html)



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Message no. 36
From: Sean Matheis <sean@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:57:34 -0800
Just fear the day when tech. as seen in the film "Gattica" is
available. DNA scanners to the extent they just run a mini-vac
over an area, and cross-reference all material found to the
master-database, filtering out the expected samples.

Big Brother may be watching, but he's busy plotting with the
other Dragons at the moment. Call back next decade =)

-Sean

On 18 Dec 98, at 6:39, Ryo-ohki observed Lady Jestyr saying:

> Sure - but they still have to search every hair if they want proof or a
> ritual sample. Knowing that 99.9% of the samples are garbage doesn't help
> identify the real one. It may only be a matter of quickly identifying the
> non-valid hairs and tossing them out, but that's still going to take forever.
>
> Lady Jestyr
>
> - The Australian dream: Football, meat pies and Holden cars. -
> - Holdens are American, meat pies are British, and football is stupid. -
> - jestyr@*******.com.au URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr -
>
Message no. 37
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:14:17 +1100
>Sure - but they still have to search every hair if they want proof or a
>ritual sample. Knowing that 99.9% of the samples are garbage doesn't help
>identify the real one. It may only be a matter of quickly identifying the
>non-valid hairs and tossing them out, but that's still going to take forever.

Assuming, of course, that in the sixty or so years between now and then,
that they haven't found a way to computerise sample-checking. All they
really have to do is rig up a microscope, imaging scanner, some decent
software, and some mechanized means of grabbing each hair and putting it on
the slide, and they're ready to rock and roll. Once all the hairs that
contain DNA are found, all a magician has to do is check those few with
astral perception to check if they're viable links. Anyway, just an idea...

Oh, and on the subject of hair and the information that can be garnered
from their investigation, here's something you may or may not know:
Because of the way they're structured, human hairs accumulate impurities
from the body itself. These impurities can be 'read' (rather like the
rings on a tree), indicting when the person was sick (and to what illness
in some cases), what drugs the person was on, how old the person is, his
general diet, and so on.
Message no. 38
From: Bryan Covington <bryan.covington@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:00:34 -0500
> >Sure - but they still have to search every hair if they want proof or a
> >ritual sample. Knowing that 99.9% of the samples are garbage doesn't help
> >identify the real one. It may only be a matter of quickly identifying the
> >non-valid hairs and tossing them out, but that's still going to take
> forever.
>
> Assuming, of course, that in the sixty or so years between now and then,
> that they haven't found a way to computerise sample-checking. All they
> really have to do is rig up a microscope, imaging scanner, some decent
> software, and some mechanized means of grabbing each hair and putting it
> on
> the slide, and they're ready to rock and roll. Once all the hairs that
> contain DNA are found, all a magician has to do is check those few with
> astral perception to check if they're viable links. Anyway, just an
> idea...
>
This is assuming that there are enough "barber shop robbers"
to justify it. How often is this really going to happen? The only way that
something like that is gonna get built is if there is a demand for it. Since
you are normally only checking a few hairs I don't see any reason for
someone to develop this.
Message no. 39
From: Sean Martinez <el_bandit@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Forensic Precautions
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:42:21 -0500
On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:57:34 -0800 Sean Matheis <sean@****.NET> writes:

>Just fear the day when tech. as seen in the film "Gattica" is
>available. DNA scanners to the extent they just run a mini-vac
>over an area, and cross-reference all material found to the
>master-database, filtering out the expected samples.

My wife already saw the movie and said that tech is beyond SR tech level,
but not by much. (Figure another 20-40 years) Overall she did not like
the movie, except fot the overall comment on society.

>Big Brother may be watching, but he's busy plotting with the
>other Dragons at the moment. Call back next decade =)

LOL!
-El Bandit (http://members.aol.com/elbandit/sr/main.html)

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<|>
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Further Reading

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Thwap!