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Message no. 1
From: Manolis Skoulikas greatworm@*****.com
Subject: Freedom for the Allies!!
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:33:55 +0300
No this is not a Free Spirit Activist Moto!
Just the opposite, actually.

I was thinking on the ally conjuring matter.
Since ally spirits are extremely karama costly (and rightly so IMO)
one could cut down on the advancement cost by freeing the Ally.
Are you crazy? Free the damn thing I spent so many karma on?
(not to mention a whole MAGIC POINT!)

Well... Yes!!!

Think about it.
Free spirits still perform their old chores as usual and get the bonus
of spirit energy to add to their normal force!
They get spirit powers to boot!
They can be bossed around when you know their true name.
Yeah, I know they are more free thinking this way and prone to
interpretation of your 'commands' but it adds more spice to the game.
And in anyway, they develope initiative to your benefit if you treat
them right! (I do sound like a free spirit activist, don't I?)

In any case, if you had second thoughts on the matter, think of this:
It costs 75 karma to turn a Force 1 ally to Force 6.
It costs 35 karma (and a Conjuring (2)test) to turn a free force 1 ally
into a force6+spirit energy 6 super spirit
(effective Power focus 12, spellcaster magic rating 12, not to make any
mention of the spirit powers and attributes)


And don't think of people controlling your ally.
They must make a Quest (Force + Sp.Energy) to find the true name.
Show me a person who can make a successful rating 12 metaquest
and I'll be HIS Ally!


Also, the spirit get some freedom (even if it's bound) and things get
more interesting this way. It can still say 'NO' if what you ask is
ludicrous and it can even get its way once and a while.This way the GM
gets to roleplay too. He can give you hints, develope a character for
the spirit, individual secret agendas...
Remember 'Burning Bright'?

Tell me what you think about it...

The Wiz
Message no. 2
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Freedom for the Allies!!
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:38:17 EST
In a message dated 3/30/00 4:32:56 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
greatworm@*****.com writes:

> Think about it.
> Free spirits still perform their old chores as usual and get the bonus
> of spirit energy to add to their normal force!
> They get spirit powers to boot!
> They can be bossed around when you know their true name.
> Yeah, I know they are more free thinking this way and prone to
> interpretation of your 'commands' but it adds more spice to the game.
> And in anyway, they develope initiative to your benefit if you treat
> them right! (I do sound like a free spirit activist, don't I?)

The whole idea is fairly old one, and does have some merit to it. However,
you won't the "They can be bossed around when you know their true name."
combined well with "And in anyway, they develope initiative to your benefit
if you treat them right!"

Those two statements are not compatible in this regard, and should be
remembered as such. Also, starting "Force 1" or even "Force 2" sets
the base
for their astral attributes (the "physical set when materialized"). As their
"force" is increased later by their expending of their accumulated spirit
energy (a concept that is in fact as potentially cost prohibitive down the
road, if not more so than getting one of higher force initially), these
attributes don't actually increase ... and their "mentals" are based upon the
attributes of their creator, and are never influenced by force. All by the
ally conjuring rules in MitS.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 3
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Freedom for the Allies!!
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:54:46 EST
In a message dated 3/30/00 4:32:56 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
greatworm@*****.com writes:

> In any case, if you had second thoughts on the matter, think of this:
> It costs 75 karma to turn a Force 1 ally to Force 6.
> It costs 35 karma (and a Conjuring (2)test) to turn a free force 1 ally
> into a force6+spirit energy 6 super spirit
> (effective Power focus 12, spellcaster magic rating 12, not to make any
> mention of the spirit powers and attributes)

Whoa, hold it right there guy ... Power Focus 12??? The ally is giving them
the benefit of both their new force and their spirit energy??? And this
ally, for all it's "force" may represent is still a relative
"newborn". And
I'm still looking at the karma here ... your off, just so you know. It would
only cost 38 points, in theory, to get a Force 1/Energy 1 spirit up to Force
6/Energy 6 under MitS, as the Spirit Energy, when "used to buy Force" reduces
the energy to an effective zero (0) afterwards, and the first point of Energy
is part of "Going Free". Effectively, the spirit would go to "Force
2/Energy
0" at the point of going Free, as it only needs one point of spirit energy to
do so, and that it has.

Can anyone say "Mentor"??? (as in, the nasty little craphead from
"Threats"???)

> And don't think of people controlling your ally.
> They must make a Quest (Force + Sp.Energy) to find the true name.
> Show me a person who can make a successful rating 12 metaquest
> and I'll be HIS Ally!

There are quite a few people who could do this actually ... you only need one
success to do so, and the "drain test" for the quest is survivable regardless
(never achieves "Deadly").

> Also, the spirit get some freedom (even if it's bound) and things get
> more interesting this way. It can still say 'NO' if what you ask is
> ludicrous and it can even get its way once and a while.This way the GM
> gets to roleplay too. He can give you hints, develope a character for
> the spirit, individual secret agendas...

Which is what he had better damn well do too. The player is going to be
dealing with that same Force 6/Energy 6 being with a completely
childlike/newborn mentality. Sure, it has the creator's intelligence,
charisma and willpower, but if anything that could make things worse. Quite
possibly the ultimate brat has just been born. Or worse, as Ally's are
somewhat derived from the inner workings of the mind, and given the detail
this summoner just went into with this little "shortcut to power", the Ally
is likely to have this part of the "summoner's mentality" taken to heart ...
quite literally. He's (the spirit) is probably not going to be patient,
EVER; is always going to want to take the "shortest/cheapest option" in any
situation; and now he's got the same Willpower attribute as his creator, and
lots of dice and power to back it up (he has the same Sorcery as the creator,
as well as all the potentially fun "free spirit powers" now as well).

On top of that, the astral signature for the place where this little "karmic
ritual" occurs is going to be fraggin' HOT! No standard cleansing is going
to work, definitely a Cleansing Metamagic requirement (which I've discovered
very few magicians ever take it seems).

> Remember 'Burning Bright'?

Oh yes, and we used it as one of our references when we playtested this very
same idea for MitS over a year back now. Hell, you're so close to an even
nastier loophole that still exists in the mechanics, it's almost frightening
...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 4
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Freedom for the Allies!!
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:24:56 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Manolis Skoulikas <greatworm@*****.com>
To: Shadowrun <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Date: Friday, March 31, 2000 7:33 AM
Subject: Freedom for the Allies!!


>No this is not a Free Spirit Activist Moto!
>Just the opposite, actually.
>
>I was thinking on the ally conjuring matter.
>Since ally spirits are extremely karama costly (and rightly so IMO)
>one could cut down on the advancement cost by freeing the Ally.
>Are you crazy? Free the damn thing I spent so many karma on?
>(not to mention a whole MAGIC POINT!)
>
>Well... Yes!!!
>
>Think about it.
>Free spirits still perform their old chores as usual and get the bonus
>of spirit energy to add to their normal force!
>They get spirit powers to boot!
>They can be bossed around when you know their true name.
>Yeah, I know they are more free thinking this way and prone to
>interpretation of your 'commands' but it adds more spice to the game.
>And in anyway, they develope initiative to your benefit if you treat
>them right! (I do sound like a free spirit activist, don't I?)
>
You would have to be damn careful. What if this free ally puts a contract on
your head so that it can become properly free and wipe out the last person
to know its true name? If you created it out of opportunism, then it follows
that it would be an opportunist. Most spirits wouldn't really see killing a
human any different than runners see banishing a spirit. Also, it would be
pretty hard for the spirit not to resent what you have done to it. As an
ally, it serves because that is all it knows. As a free spirit, it is now
your slave, and it knows full well whats going on. You gave it freedom, and
then yanked it away again. It would be hard to see that in a positive light,
and may even turn the spirit toxic.
Message no. 5
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Freedom for the Allies!!
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:45:34 -0800 (PST)
<BigSnip(TM) of freeing allies stuff...>
> Tell me what you think about it...
>
> The Wiz

No offense, Manolis, but I still think this is one of
the most munchkinous things I've ever heard. I LOVE
playing mages (and I must confess, I sometimes drift
the way of power-gaming), but I'd NEVER even consider
doing this. If one of my players ever tried it, I'd
give them grief you would NOT believe.

I guess I just feel strongly about this particular bit
of deviousness.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 6
From: Manolis Skoulikas greatworm@*****.com
Subject: Freedom for the Allies!!
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 02:08:20 +0300
Simon Fuller wrote:

> You would have to be damn careful. What if this free ally puts a contract on
> your head so that it can become properly free and wipe out the last person
> to know its true name? If you created it out of opportunism, then it follows
> that it would be an opportunist. Most spirits wouldn't really see killing a
> human any different than runners see banishing a spirit. Also, it would be
> pretty hard for the spirit not to resent what you have done to it. As an
> ally, it serves because that is all it knows. As a free spirit, it is now
> your slave, and it knows full well whats going on. You gave it freedom, and
> then yanked it away again. It would be hard to see that in a positive light,
> and may even turn the spirit toxic.


That is what I mean also. It takes the definitive advantage of the fully
subservient ally and turns the spirit into a new asset in the campaign.
The GM gets to roleplay the character of the now free spirit in ways his
own imagination dictates. You get to cajole it, make friends, treat it
with respect and feed it a lot of karma to keep it happy. It actually
turns an ally into a contact, albeit a very serious one and possibly
very dangerous also. It is kind of nemesis for the 'opportunistic' as
you put it, and as a kind of added benefit for those who 'make the
effort' as they gain a new friend.

In the end you might not bind the spirit. It would still help out IMO,
since it would usually get karma for services.

The Wiz
as I would put it.
Message no. 7
From: Manolis Skoulikas greatworm@*****.com
Subject: Freedom for the Allies!!
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 02:14:18 +0300
HHackerH@***.com wrote:

> Whoa, hold it right there guy ... Power Focus 12??? The ally is giving them
> the benefit of both their new force and their spirit energy???

the 'aid power' power of the ally is based on force. In that case when
the spirit is free:
''when a free spirit uses a spirit power that is based on force, add
the spirit's current spirit energy to its force.''

And this
> ally, for all it's "force" may represent is still a relative
"newborn". And
> I'm still looking at the karma here ... your off, just so you know.

Iknow. Calculated with '3 times current force' insted of 'new force'
I stand corrected.
Though you're missing the point.
38 karma (and not 35) is still alot less than 380.(for a force 12 ally)

>
> Can anyone say "Mentor"??? (as in, the nasty little craphead from
> "Threats"???)

Enlighten me please as I don't own 'Threats'.

>
> > And don't think of people controlling your ally.
> > They must make a Quest (Force + Sp.Energy) to find the true name.
> > Show me a person who can make a successful rating 12 metaquest
> > and I'll be HIS Ally!
>
> There are quite a few people who could do this actually ... you only need one
> success to do so, and the "drain test" for the quest is survivable
regardless
> (never achieves "Deadly").

Do you reguraly go on to roll twin 'double sixes' on 7-12 dice pools?
You must be Irish or blessed by a very generous deity... :)

It requires 2 attribute (12) successes to go through the threshold
and the drain is more than deadly.
On average you get 5 'places' on quest and that would be an average of
15 boxes of Stun Dmg and 9 of physical dmg.
Physical dmg can be healed but stun knocks you out eventually.
And a force 12 spirit on the place of spirits is definetely Deadly,
anyway you cut it.

Unless I am missing something here, you also have to pass some mental
tests. If 10 is the TN for impossible, then 12 would be...

rating 12 metaquests are more in the sphere of legends IMO,
not for NPCs to perform for a true name of a spirit that pissed them
off.

I would like your opinions on that as game balance is concerned.


> > Also, the spirit get some freedom (even if it's bound) and things get
> > more interesting this way. It can still say 'NO' if what you ask is
> > ludicrous and it can even get its way once and a while.This way the GM
> > gets to roleplay too. He can give you hints, develope a character for
> > the spirit, individual secret agendas...
>
> Which is what he had better damn well do too. The player is going to be
> dealing with that same Force 6/Energy 6 being with a completely
> childlike/newborn mentality.

no one better to educate and train than achild
and certainly no one better for a dependant relationship...

But I would think the new spirit would be new to the ways of the world
but would still have some seriously developed character as it is usually
an 'alter ego' of the summoner.

Oh, and let us not forget that 38 karma does a a very happy spirit make!

> Oh yes, and we used it as one of our references when we playtested this very
> same idea for MitS over a year back now. Hell, you're so close to an even
> nastier loophole that still exists in the mechanics, it's almost frightening
> ...
>
That would n't be conjuring high force nature spirits setting them free
and binding them?
Or making an army out of similar low force free spirits?
Or...
Or...

However nasty the loophole, the GM can always counter it.
The more blatant he munchkinism, the more leeway he has.

I suggested the whole ally thing thinking how it can beef an ally up
and provide great roleplaying opportunities.
As you all said it can easily be dealt with, but the question is:
Does the GM really want to pass such an opportunity for roleplaying?

The Wiz
Message no. 8
From: Manolis Skoulikas greatworm@*****.com
Subject: Freedom for the Allies!!
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 02:33:20 +0300
Rand Ratinac wrote:
>

> No offense, Manolis, but I still think this is one of
> the most munchkinous things I've ever heard.

It is, is n't?
Well I try to stay clean, Doc, but those ideas just keep poping out!
:)



I LOVE
> playing mages (and I must confess, I sometimes drift
> the way of power-gaming),

I hear you. It seems you are always a power player when you play a
mage. Even if you toss force 5 stunballs, you are stil knocking out more
people than other non mage characters.
Then it starts rubbing off at you.


but I'd NEVER even consider
> doing this. If one of my players ever tried it, I'd
> give them grief you would NOT believe.
>
> I guess I just feel strongly about this particular bit
> of deviousness.
>

Yeah, but think of the potential...
Oh, the sweet potential!!!

A player of mine back in the 'Grimoire' days made something like that.
I turned the spirit into a manifested catholic saint that helped and
organized the Yucatan guerillas and ended up lecturing the character
when he 'dared' to ask it for a favor. :)))))))
Served him right.
But to think of the fun we all had dealing with a strong free spirit
with its own mentality. Not to mention the boost it gave to my campaign
so as to motivate my players to focus on the humanitarian side of the
Yucatan war (they were involved in a prolonged adventure with the
Yucatan rebels).

Btw, why doesn't everybody use the opportunity to express his opinions
about how are free spirits used in his/her campaign?

The Wiz
Message no. 9
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Freedom for the Allies!!
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 11:13:28 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Manolis Skoulikas <greatworm@*****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Monday, April 03, 2000 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: Freedom for the Allies!!


>That is what I mean also. It takes the definitive advantage of the fully
>subservient ally and turns the spirit into a new asset in the campaign.
>The GM gets to roleplay the character of the now free spirit in ways his
>own imagination dictates. You get to cajole it, make friends, treat it
>with respect and feed it a lot of karma to keep it happy. It actually
>turns an ally into a contact, albeit a very serious one and possibly
>very dangerous also. It is kind of nemesis for the 'opportunistic' as
>you put it, and as a kind of added benefit for those who 'make the
>effort' as they gain a new friend.
>
>In the end you might not bind the spirit. It would still help out IMO,
>since it would usually get karma for services.
>
>The Wiz
>as I would put it.
>
One of my supporting NPC's is 7th Avenue, a free city spirit. It looks like
a little tiny (we call them Willy Willys, those little whirlwinds that you
see spinning around sometimes a foot or two high, but sometimes much bigger)
with two glowing cigarette butts for eyes. It is a weak spirit, force 3 or
4, and it spends most of its time with a street kid, they are best friends.
It has the Wealth power that manifests by producing the sort of things
people lose on the street, jewellry, credsticks, that sort of thing. I have
layed several heavy hints to the players that by feeding it karma and
putting in an effort, they could get a fairly potent free spirit as a good
contact. I don't know why, but the whole team just doesn't like spirits.
Message no. 10
From: Tony Rabiola argent1@****.com
Subject: Freedom for the Allies!!
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 20:16:54 -0500
> >
> One of my supporting NPC's is 7th Avenue, a free city spirit.
It looks like
> a little tiny (we call them Willy Willys, those little
whirlwinds that you
> see spinning around sometimes a foot or two high, but sometimes
much bigger)
> with two glowing cigarette butts for eyes. It is a weak spirit,
force 3 or
> 4, and it spends most of its time with a street kid, they are
best friends.
> It has the Wealth power that manifests by producing the sort of
things
> people lose on the street, jewellry, credsticks, that sort of
thing. I have
> layed several heavy hints to the players that by feeding it
karma and
> putting in an effort, they could get a fairly potent free
spirit as a good
> contact. I don't know why, but the whole team just doesn't like
spirits.

Just the opposite in my game...I don't think I have run an
adventure yet where there has not been a summoned spirit or
elemental on standby, not to mention the NPC free spirits, both
antagonists, protagonists and supporting cast. I have run a
variety of them in my game, and introduced variants to keep
things interesting.

A while back, maybe a long while back, someone had thrown out the
idea for a netbook on spirits, which I thought would be a great
project; different spirit manifestations, rules clarifications,
variants, different types, house rules, equipment, etc. One book
I would like to see come to fruition....

Argent
"What fools these mortals be...."
Message no. 11
From: Jinx jinxed@***********.com
Subject: Freedom for the Allies!!
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 21:20:56 -0500
Simon Fuller wrote:

>One of my supporting NPC's is 7th Avenue, a free city spirit. It looks like
>a little tiny (we call them Willy Willys, those little whirlwinds that you
>see spinning around sometimes a foot or two high, but sometimes much bigger)

They call them dust devils in the midwest US (at least, that's what the
people I know call them). Cats love them, for some reason. Like to chase
them...

>I don't know why, but the whole team just doesn't like spirits.

We've never had a spirit that stuck around. We had a mage who had four
water elementals, I believe, who each owed him one favor, and he once took
control of an earth elemental, but that's the closest we ever came. I think
it never really occurred to us that summoning a spirit might be a good
thing. As newbie players we'd read through the book and read about all the
nasty things that can happen if they got loose, and formed a general
opinion that it wasn't worth the risk, and that stuck. When I reread the
rules now (like I have since this thread started) I can see where you can
moderate that risk, so it doesn't seem so horrendous, but I've still got
this, well, almost instinctive distrust and dislike for them. *shrug* Until
I've played in a game with one, that will probably continue. Anyways,
that's why we don't like them...

Jinx

"Have some pride in earning what you take!"

http://www.redrival.com/jmenning/rp/sr.html
Message no. 12
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Freedom for the Allies!!
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 09:38:39 EDT
In a message dated 4/2/00 6:12:34 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
greatworm@*****.com writes:

> > > And don't think of people controlling your ally.
> > > They must make a Quest (Force + Sp.Energy) to find the true name.
> > > Show me a person who can make a successful rating 12 metaquest
> > > and I'll be HIS Ally!
> >
> > There are quite a few people who could do this actually ... you only
need
> one
> > success to do so, and the "drain test" for the quest is survivable
> regardless
> > (never achieves "Deadly").
>
> Do you reguraly go on to roll twin 'double sixes' on 7-12 dice pools?
> You must be Irish or blessed by a very generous deity... :)

No, I just realize that "Player Luck" will always hold final sway over a
game. And actually, out of 12 dice, all I need is a single "12". Not so
bad. Oh wait a second, the "Free Spirit Energy" does NOT compute into the
mechanics of the quest. Only force. So all I need now are "6's".

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 13
From: Scott Harrison Scott_Harrison@*****.com
Subject: Freedom for the Allies!!
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 11:26:26 -0400
In a message from HHackerH@***.com
dated Mon, 03 Apr 2000 09:38:39 -0400 (EDT), my mailer made me see:

->
-> No, I just realize that "Player Luck" will always hold final sway over a
-> game. And actually, out of 12 dice, all I need is a single "12". Not so
-> bad. Oh wait a second, the "Free Spirit Energy" does NOT compute into the

-> mechanics of the quest. Only force. So all I need now are "6's".
->

The chance to roll at least 1 successes of TN 12 on 12 dice is 28.6841%.
The chance to roll at least 1 successes of TN 6 on 12 dice is 88.7843%.

--
Scott Harrison
Message no. 14
From: Manolis Skoulikas greatworm@*****.com
Subject: Freedom for the Allies!!
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 10:32:50 +0300
HHackerH@***.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 4/2/00 6:12:34 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> greatworm@*****.com writes:
>
> > > > And don't think of people controlling your ally.
> > > > They must make a Quest (Force + Sp.Energy) to find the true name.
> > > > Show me a person who can make a successful rating 12 metaquest
> > > > and I'll be HIS Ally!
> > >
> > > There are quite a few people who could do this actually ... you only
> need
> > one
> > > success to do so, and the "drain test" for the quest is
survivable
> > regardless
> > > (never achieves "Deadly").
> >
> > Do you reguraly go on to roll twin 'double sixes' on 7-12 dice pools?
> > You must be Irish or blessed by a very generous deity... :)
>
> No, I just realize that "Player Luck" will always hold final sway over a
> game. And actually, out of 12 dice, all I need is a single "12". Not so
> bad. Oh wait a second, the "Free Spirit Energy" does NOT compute into the
> mechanics of the quest. Only force. So all I need now are "6's".
>
Sorry K, it does compute:

''The quest rating is the spirit's Force plus Spirit Energy.''
MitS p. 95 true name

And rolling conjuring + 3 dice is harly a 12 dice pool, unless you
have conjuring 9 (You may, but even ultimate Npcs rarely do)

Even so , assuming 4 or even 5 rerolls with karma pool you have to roll
two natural 12 just to avoid being knocked out by stun dmg on ''place of
fear'', and you have not offered any ideas as to how you beat a force
12 spirit on ''place of spirits''.

Too much stun damage gets you out of the quest, so I don't think you can
just soak it up and hope to get to the citadel on your next roll.

As for player luck, I can tell you of a player of mine that went ahead
to roll a 19 to bind a force 19 fire elemental, but that's as rare an
occurence as I have seen over the years.

Plain luck is very hard to depend on.
But since you said player luck...
Maybe yourr character could pull it off.
You mentioned eight years of gaming and over 500 karma.
That seems like mage who could try it and have a sporting chance.
A little exercise would be to see an 'ultimate' character like yours
pass a 12 quest.

I leave it to you to calculate the odds and select the appropriate
skills.

Make two random rating 12 quests and then post the results.

This not a challenge. Really.It's not.
I am only curious how 'ultimate ' characters' have developed so they can
pull such monumental feats.
I would really appreciate a display.
Or you can make a 500 karma mage and try it with him.

The wiz

Further Reading

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