| From: | HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com |
|---|---|
| Subject: | Freedom for the Allies!! (and : Mentor) |
| Date: | Tue, 4 Apr 2000 06:51:24 EDT |
or attack so don't try and read that kind of cynicism or sarcasm into it
please.
-K
In a message dated 4/4/00 2:32:04 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
greatworm@*****.com writes:
> ''The quest rating is the spirit's Force plus Spirit Energy.''
> MitS p. 95 true name
Read "Place of Spirits". You'll note that Spirit Energy is not part of that
description. If you want to defeat a spirit there, it's only Force.
> And rolling conjuring + 3 dice is harly a 12 dice pool, unless you
> have conjuring 9 (You may, but even ultimate Npcs rarely do)
You have so little faith in the system. Dice Pools can come around. If we
are talking "Joe the Average Street Mage", yeah, the 12 dice thing probably
won't come into effect. Of course, he's also probably not going on the quest
in the first place.
If we are talking "Ultimate NPC's", then you are falling back onto the
definitions as set by a given game. There are numerous NPC's in the books
that have stats/skills in that immediate range (and usually have the
resources to do more). For instance, if this is a "basic NPC" ... by that I
mean one who probably has nothing higher than a "6" (lets say "6",
lets be
merciful), and by all of YOUR examples, he's also an initiate (recently
advanced initiate by your original post actually, using this ally as an
Ordeal), then they are automatically going to have around 10 dice to roll
(Conjuring 6 plus Astral Pool/Grade 1 plus 3 dice; the three everyone gets).
Hey look, this is even before we get into unique enchantments and the like or
background counts.
> Even so , assuming 4 or even 5 rerolls with karma pool you have to roll
> two natural 12 just to avoid being knocked out by stun dmg on ''place of
> fear'', and you have not offered any ideas as to how you beat a force
> 12 spirit on ''place of spirits''.
There was another post that gave statistics. And I just did give a reply for
the place of spirits. I'm not sure at all where the "Place of Fear" came
into the picture. If this whole thing is a "random quest adventure", then
yeah sure. But, as you'll note further along here, I (nor my characters)
have to go any "side quests" at all.
> Too much stun damage gets you out of the quest, so I don't think you can
> just soak it up and hope to get to the citadel on your next roll.
This is the fun part. If you are going on a "Quest", then you are either
Grade or have enlisted the aid of a Free Spirit as well. Either way, you are
either not alone or not weak. And besides, this is only one (1) quest, not
several unless directed by the GM. If the GM has allowed for the Free
Spirit-Ally to come of this, and then redirects the balance of the game
against the player that may be going on the Quest, then there isn't much in
the way of player consideration IMO.
> As for player luck, I can tell you of a player of mine that went ahead
> to roll a 19 to bind a force 19 fire elemental, but that's as rare an
> occurence as I have seen over the years.
Then again, you simply have NOT been playing the game as long or as often as
other people. I've seen, with my own eyes, players roll as high as ... 59???
(IIRC, it was a 59). I've also seen a "Roll of 1's" for someone with a 14
skill. Again, it's a matter of time and experience.
BTW: A Force 19 Fire Elemental? Free, Standard or Great Form? There were
questions before you ever came on the list about "what it would take to
usurp/bind control of a Great Form elemental."
> Plain luck is very hard to depend on.
This is a game, remarkably speaking, it is just about the only thing you CAN
depend on.
> But since you said player luck...
> Maybe yourr character could pull it off.
I *KNOW* my character could pull it off, I'll explain at the end how a low
level character could as well. After you read it, you may want to consider
exactly WHAT a 500 karma character could really do.
> You mentioned eight years of gaming and over 500 karma.
> That seems like mage who could try it and have a sporting chance.
Actually, a mage who is going to do this with an Ally spirit he "sets" free,
only to bind again at this new force/karma, is basically going to HAVE to do
this as well.
> A little exercise would be to see an 'ultimate' character like yours
> pass a 12 quest.
Na, the exercise would be see to yours. If I built a mage at this level, I
know for a fact I could beat the ever living tar out of said free spirit.
> I leave it to you to calculate the odds and select the appropriate
> skills.
No odds; comprehension and intelligent playing are all that would be required.
> Make two random rating 12 quests and then post the results.
>
> This not a challenge. Really.It's not.
Really? Then why the directive to the words? I don't need to post the
results of any kind of random test. You can do that for all of us.
> I am only curious how 'ultimate ' characters' have developed so they can
> pull such monumental feats.
Fair enough question, trouble is ... developing such requires far more time
and typing space than the list here probably has.
> I would really appreciate a display.
> Or you can make a 500 karma mage and try it with him.
I've got a better one right here.
Your mage who made this ally spirit, he did create a formula, did he not for
the ally originally? You do realize that the formula is a ritual link to the
ally, even after it is free don't you? You also realize that the same
formula can be used to make a very specific enchantment that would go towards
the conjuring of the being in question, yes?
You also realize that a ritual of conjuring does have the ability to be of a
higher rating lodge or circle than required??? That this *could* (depending
on the GM) work on behalf of the character pulling the conjuring? This
determination of "force" is not using the spirit energy.
Also, the Formula already has the spirits' true name involved in it, hence I
think I'm just going to bypass this entire "Quest for True Name" step...
which btw, alternatively, I suppose I could go on the Quest just to say I've
done it, but why should I when I have already chosen the metaplane of the
ally at the time of it's design and given it the True Name as well.
Were this a "Free Fire Elemental", then the rules as you list them and
mention them are correct and it would be tougher. However, this whole thing
(as detailed by the subject line of the post alone) has to do with Ally
spirits. That little change in the situation makes all the difference, and
the clarification can be found in the MitS under page 115 "Learning a True
Name".
So, I don't have to be an initiate, especially if I'm the original conjuror
and especially if I have retained the original ally formula (which any
intelligent player-character should have done in the first place).
Oh wait, the lodge/circle of conjuring. This also has the potential to
become very specific. As this is a Ritual, it also gains from such things as
"ritual components". If the Lodge/Circle is the one where the spirit was
conjured, it may hold a significant position in the "power scope" of the
being in question, and given benefits. Alternatively/Admittedly, this place
may also benefit the spirit as well.
Also, if the Lodge/Circle to be used is in on a place of power (ie; someplace
with attuned background count), the background count will also go towards the
ritual declaration of the magician, and bring his/her (its?) target numbers
down still further and/or give bonus dice to the roll.
So, in truth, I don't need a "500 Karma Character" to pull this off. I just
need one who wants to live and is going to be thinking ahead a little bit on
this one. If I have a mage with 500 karma who is going to be doing this,
he'd probably be planning a trip to Disney World afterwards as a mild
celebration.
I have a better idea Manolis. Why don't you apply for the position of a
Playtester instead? You seem well versed on the mechanics enough to do so.
The instance you listed above for example. You may find that although you
can go digging through books for rules, you have barely just begun to scratch
the surface of the game itself by the standards of play in our games. When
you can figure out the mechanics of something we refer to as a "Karma
Furnace" (and by delving into this 'trick' with karma and free spirits, you
are getting really close) and just exactly what kind of power *CAN* be
developed in the game for so relatively small a 'karmic expenditure', then
come back. You've got a sharp mind, I can see that. Now all I'm suggesting
is that you realize what more is out there and that quoting rules isn't going
to give you any real basis or position of strength anyway. Its not the fact
you know the rules, its the fact you know what you can do WITH them in the
first place.
-=-=-=-
Side Subject: Mentor
You wondered what this was in another post so I'll do a quick summary here.
"Mentor" is a particularly nasty, very powerful by the majority of games I am
aware of, Free Spirit who has taken up the attitude that it just does NOT
like the way mortals are attempting to always get control of
spirits/elementals, etc... It goes about posing as other kinds of spirits,
making bargains and offers to magicians (usually in the form of teaching the
individual some hefty, rare, metamagic or spell) that ultimately bring said
magician under the binding control of Mentor (also known as Tutor IIRC).
The stunt this magician is making/pulling here in your "Freedom of the
Allies" concept stands a very high chance of getting Mentor's attention,
again should the GM decide to use such, and bringing Mentor down into the
"world of the PC". Mentor would likely see the situation, determine it's
value, reason for being, and the motivations of the magician in question ...
and start to play games on an entirely new level. He could offer the
magician help in making the being more powerful for instance, claiming to be
a spirit that wants nothing more than to help spirits gain in strength. It
could stick around, and while the mortal (requiring sleep) magician goes
about his life, he could starting "instructing" the new-born free spirit into
the *REAL* reasons the magician has done all of this. He could explain to
the new-born the opportunities that are out there in the world, and how if
given a little bit of patience and time, Mentor could get the spirit to
become "Truly Free".
And that is just one idea of "Consequences" that would be possibly facing the
magician.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
