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Message no. 1
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Fresh Language Problem
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 19:05:49 -0500
Having beaten the other thread to death, here is this set:

How can I take two languages from the same family during creation? If I do,
what is my rating in the family? How much did it cost to get these two?
Message no. 2
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Fresh Language Problem
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 19:47:23 -0800
> Having beaten the other thread to death, here is this set:
>
> How can I take two languages from the same family during creation? If I
do,
> what is my rating in the family? How much did it cost to get these two?

I always figured learning another language in the same family (a sister
language), should be a lesser cost. Maybe only as much as a point (or two)
cheaper at creation, and after creation, maybe a much shorter training
time (if using the optional rule from Srun Companion.) Or perhaps each two
or three levels costs one karma less. I'd tend not to go this route, since
that makes it a bit too easy. Maybe gaining a rating of two in the laguage
when the language is first bought. (Buy first, get second free! - sounds
like a special at work!)

But the rating in the parent language, would still be none. You can't have
a rating in Germanic, or Romance. You could have a rating in every single
language in one family, and still have no rating in the parent language.

Speaking the proto-language, is another matter. With enough research, one
could speak proto-germanic, or 12th Century Russian, but your
pronunciation will be atrocious to a native speaker. Best hope none of
those danmed immoral elves are not around.

--

Dvixen dvixen@********.com
"And I thought First Ones were rare." - Ivanova - Babylon 5
The opinions expressed are those of the myriad voices in my head
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Fresh Language Problem
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:57:49 +0100
Brett Borger said on 19:05/10 Feb 97...

> How can I take two languages from the same family during creation?

Technically, the rules prevent you from learning two languages from the
same family -- each language is a specialization in the family, and SRII
page 70 says "Starting characters are allowed only one Concentration and
one Specialization per skill."

I think most GMs woul let you take two skills simpl by paying the Skill
Points cost for each of them, and then adding +2 to the number of points
spent to take the Specialization into account. For example, taking
Algonkin 7 and Arapaho 5 (both languages are from the Algonkian family)
would cost 8 Skill Points: 5 for Algonkin and 3 for Arapaho.

> If I do, what is my rating in the family?

I'd say the highest of the two ratings, minus 4. In the above example,
you'd speak all the other languages in the Algonkian family (Blackfoot,
Cheyenne, Cree, and so on) at rating 3.

> How much did it cost to get these two?

See above.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Standing on the sideline watching the show.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 4
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Fresh Language Problem
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:53:29 +0000
On Mon, 10 Feb 1997, Brett Borger wrote:

> How can I take two languages from the same family during creation? If I do,
> what is my rating in the family? How much did it cost to get these two?
Now I didn't follow teh last debate so thwapp me if this has been saud
before, but, I thought you didn't get a rating in the family language just
teh specific language. Kind of like there is no general Etiquette skill -
you must have the concentration.

The Digital Mage aka Grant Erswell - mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"Sadder still to watch it die, than never to have known it"
-Rush, Losing It
Message no. 5
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fresh Language Problem
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:33:17 -0500
>Now I didn't follow teh last debate so thwapp me if this has been saud
>before, but, I thought you didn't get a rating in the family language just
>teh specific language. Kind of like there is no general Etiquette skill -
>you must have the concentration.

Well, (if I may attempt to interpret the ramblings of my fellow posters) the
general
idea other people said was 1)You can't use the general skill like a normal
skill, more like a defaulting skill (it can get you out of trouble, but not
sound beautiful) and
2) There was much debate over whether you had the family skill RL examples
were brought up, alternatives proposed....I think the general concensus was
that the SR system was not too bad, but far from perfect.

By the written rules though, you DO get the family skill. THWAP! :) (But I
would dispute anyone who said that this implied fluency, even if it was
high, in all the languages of that family. I think "Comprehension" is more
accurate)

The problem I mentioned, (and I believe Gurth agreed with...I think it was
Gurth) is that since each language is a specialization, you can't take two
in the same family during creation. (You speak English! HA! No German!)
And since you DO have a rating in the Family, I said: If you do take two,
what is your general rating?

Gurth(?) said you could just take two, and be done with it. Use the higher
of the two to find the family rating. (Which can lead to some interesting
problems with a high skill and a low skill....your family can be higher than
your second skill....)

Dvixen said the second language should be cheaper, since it is in a family
you already know...

Perhaps starting the second at the family level?

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 6
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fresh Language Problem
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 12:14:16 -0500
>But the rating in the parent language, would still be none. You can't have
>a rating in Germanic, or Romance. You could have a rating in every single
>language in one family, and still have no rating in the parent language.

Okay, maybe I just missed an important thought in the other thread, but
doesn't SRII SAY you get the general family skill at -4 from the language?
And this is what you would use to try and understand any other language in
the family?

[I fully agree with stating that even a high family rating is not equal to
fluency]

IIRC, this was backed up by several RL examples from people....


-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 7
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Fresh Language Problem
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:36:45 -0800
> >But the rating in the parent language, would still be none. You can't
have
> >a rating in Germanic, or Romance. You could have a rating in every
single
> >language in one family, and still have no rating in the parent
language.
>
> Okay, maybe I just missed an important thought in the other thread, but
> doesn't SRII SAY you get the general family skill at -4 from the
language?
> And this is what you would use to try and understand any other language
in
> the family?

For the normal skills, yes. But this is one reason I don't like the rules
for languages in SRII. The same rules say you can't have a second language
in that family (Specilization in a skill) at creation. (I never really
like that rule anyway, but it does keep the munchkins at bay during
creation.)

> [I fully agree with stating that even a high family rating is not equal
to
> fluency]

> IIRC, this was backed up by several RL examples from people....

Yep. My Italian friend can understand (European) French pretty easy, she
has trouble with Canadian French (which is what she learned in school for
a few years). She has a bit of difficulty with Spanish.

But my friend who is fluent in Dutch, German, English (and two others, but
they aren't Germanic languages) can't understand Swedish, or Norwegian.

It's all a matter of which language family you look at. Scottish Gaelic
speakers can understand Irish speakers, pretty easily too. Some language
families are closer related than others.

When it gets down to it, the -4 modifier Gurth talked of, is too harsh of
a handicap for some languages, and not enough for others. As a medium,
however...

--

Dvixen dvixen@********.com
"And I thought First Ones were rare." - Ivanova - Babylon 5
The opinions expressed are those of the myriad voices in my head
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Fresh Language Problem
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:14:47 +0100
Brett Borger said on 11:33/11 Feb 97...

> I said: If you do take two [languages], what is your general rating?
>
> Gurth(?) said you could just take two, and be done with it. Use the higher
> of the two to find the family rating. (Which can lead to some interesting
> problems with a high skill and a low skill....your family can be higher than
> your second skill....)

In that case, I'd say you have wasted your points. This is during
character generation, not spending Karma to learn the language -- I'd let
the player spend points on both languages and use the highest one minus 4
as the "skill" in the family as a whole.

A way to make this worthwhile after all, is to say that, yes, your German
skill is 2 and your English skill is 7 (which would mean you have the
Germanic family at 3), you can either try to make yourself understood by
using English (3 dice, and a TN modifier might apply), or by speaking some
highschool German (2 dice, without modifiers).

> Dvixen said the second language should be cheaper, since it is in a family
> you already know...
>
> Perhaps starting the second at the family level?

IMHO, I'd only allow these if you learn the language during the game, not
at chargen.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I can cut it. I can paste it.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Fresh Language Problem
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:14:47 +0100
Brett Borger said on 12:14/11 Feb 97...

> Okay, maybe I just missed an important thought in the other thread, but
> doesn't SRII SAY you get the general family skill at -4 from the language?
> And this is what you would use to try and understand any other language in
> the family?

SRII states on page 74 that "The language family, as the equivalent of the
general skill, would have a skill rating of 4 less than the Language
Rating itself." The "would have" can mean one of two things: 1) you
actually get the family at that rating; or 2), you don't get a family
skill, but it's treated as if you do in the rules.

> [I fully agree with stating that even a high family rating is not equal to
> fluency]

IMO using the family rating to speak another language would be using the
language you do have, and your hands and feet, to make yourself understood
in a language you _don't_ have; if you're the listener, you'd be trying to
pick out words that sound like ones in the language you do speak.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I can cut it. I can paste it.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 10
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fresh Language Problem
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:54:47 -0500
>SRII states on page 74 that "The language family, as the equivalent of the
>general skill, would have a skill rating of 4 less than the Language
>Rating itself." The "would have" can mean one of two things: 1) you
>actually get the family at that rating; or 2), you don't get a family
>skill, but it's treated as if you do in the rules.

Um....Same Smell. (since we agree about fluency, baby-talk and gestures).
SO my question becomes "what is the effective rating in the family" again,
same smell.

>IMO using the family rating to speak another language would be using the
>language you do have, and your hands and feet, to make yourself understood
>in a language you _don't_ have; if you're the listener, you'd be trying to
>pick out words that sound like ones in the language you do speak.

Right, plus a lot of Tarzan.
"Me Jane...no wait..."

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 11
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Fresh Language Problem
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 03:19:49 +0100
On Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:14:47 +0100, Gurth wrote:

>SRII states on page 74 that "The language family, as the equivalent of the
>general skill, would have a skill rating of 4 less than the Language
>Rating itself." The "would have" can mean one of two things: 1) you
>actually get the family at that rating; or 2), you don't get a family
>skill, but it's treated as if you do in the rules.

We played it like this: You never "learn" a language family, so you
never write down the skill and it's rating AND you never can increase
it. This seems ok, since actually I can't imagine a way learning
RL "germanic language family" (Of course there can be a special skill
for linguists, for example).
Then, when improving a language, the corresponding language family
improves, too, but still only "virtually".
When you need the language family for communication you take your best
language skill out of that family, subtract four, et voila, there
is your skill.
So you never ever learn a language family, but can use it when you
need it.

--
Arno
*********************************************************************
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Message no. 12
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Fresh Language Problem
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:49:29 -0800
> We played it like this: You never "learn" a language family, so you
> never write down the skill and it's rating AND you never can increase

That's pretty much how we have played it.

> it. This seems ok, since actually I can't imagine a way learning
> RL "germanic language family"

(Which, you can't. You can know which changes occured from language to
language, their similarities, and differences...)

> (Of course there can be a special skill for linguists, for example).

Yeah, it's called Linguitics. ;)
(I made the skill complete a while back, it's at the end of this post.)
As far as usage goes, use the language pool itself, ir the linguistics
skill, or add the two together and use half that. (Opt. rule from SR
companion)

> Then, when improving a language, the corresponding language family
> improves, too, but still only "virtually".
> When you need the language family for communication you take your best
> language skill out of that family, subtract four, et voila, there
> is your skill.
> So you never ever learn a language family, but can use it when you
> need it.

Sounds good to me.




Linguistics
Based off Intelligence on the skill web.
(Where, I'm not sure... Any suggestions?)
> Phonetics
> Phonology
> Morphology,
> Semantics,
> Syntax,
> Dialectology
> Lingua Franca
> Pidgin/Creole
> Jargon
> > Specific Language (or Family) For all above concentrations.
> Neurolinguistics
> > Language Aquisition
> > Disorders
> > Speech Processes (Biological)
> > Origin/Evolution
> Psycholinguistics
> > Comprehension
> > Speech Production (Psychological)
> Historical
> > Specific Language Group
> > Specific Time Period
....
....
....
There's also bits in Linguistics to do with Artificial Intelligence,
Machine Language...

--

Dvixen dvixen@********.com
"And I thought First Ones were rare." - Ivanova - Babylon 5
The opinions expressed are those of the myriad voices in my head
Message no. 13
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Fresh Language Problem
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 21:56:02 +0100
Antwort: Skill ist ok, aber man sollte die Fertigkeiten nicht zu sehr
ausdehnen ... oder das skill web kräftig modifizieren, insbesondere wg

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