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Message no. 1
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: From a Certain POV (Re: [SR3] Adept Powers)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 17:54:22 EDT
In a message dated 10/10/1998 11:17:41 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
starjammer@**********.COM writes:

>
> Sorry, but it's you who needs to read more carefully. First of all, the
> spells you mention all function to gather *data*, not *information*. Nigel
> Findley did a very good job of pointing out the difference in one of his
> books; I think House of the Sun. And I specifically said information
> *processing*. While there are lots of spells that gather data, and enhance
> the user's ability to deal with that data, there are *none* that actually
> *process* the information. No computation, no interpretation, not even
> simple arithmetic. It all happens in the subject's head.

THAT, is what everything that exists is. Informational Conversion of any kind
is just a way of converting one form of data into another, more
comprehensible, form of data for the recipient. Be that method Technology
(Radio Receiver) or Magical Spell (Radio Sensory Perception) doesn't matter,
the data is still be converted to a means that is more readily understandable
to the recipient.

-K
Message no. 2
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: From a Certain POV (Re: [SR3] Adept Powers)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 18:28:12 -0400
At 05:54 PM 10-10-98 EDT, you wrote:
>
>THAT, is what everything that exists is. Informational Conversion of any
kind
>is just a way of converting one form of data into another, more
>comprehensible, form of data for the recipient. Be that method Technology
>(Radio Receiver) or Magical Spell (Radio Sensory Perception) doesn't matter,
>the data is still be converted to a means that is more readily understandable
>to the recipient.
>
>-K


I'll say it again: The subject of the spell does the analyzing, not the
spell itself. I've already granted that magic could be used to "hear" a
radio signal; transduction is very simple. But turning those 1s and 0s
into understandable sounds? Are you *really* suggesting that a spell can
enable a person's brain to absorb and process digital data in real time?
If so, get ready for the "Matrix interface" and "Become Otaku"
spells...

Most of the Detection spells that deal with this sort of thing allow the
subject to sense emotional impulses or intents. A couple also increase the
subject's natural ability to analyze those inputs. I haven't seen one yet
that allows the subject to understand something normally beyond human
comprehension.

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 3
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: From a Certain POV (Re: [SR3] Adept Powers)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 22:32:37 EDT
In a message dated 10/10/1998 7:04:22 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
starjammer@**********.COM writes:

> I'll say it again: The subject of the spell does the analyzing, not the
> spell itself. I've already granted that magic could be used to "hear" a
> radio signal; transduction is very simple. But turning those 1s and 0s
> into understandable sounds? Are you *really* suggesting that a spell can
> enable a person's brain to absorb and process digital data in real time?
> If so, get ready for the "Matrix interface" and "Become Otaku"
spells...

Actually, the "Become Otaku" spell is a Virus... (smirk).

> Most of the Detection spells that deal with this sort of thing allow the
> subject to sense emotional impulses or intents. A couple also increase the
> subject's natural ability to analyze those inputs. I haven't seen one yet
> that allows the subject to understand something normally beyond human
> comprehension.

Okay, I'm really lost. Perhaps you should consider Combat Sense a LOT closer.
It gives positive time forward insight (by regarding the potential futures of
various incidents/activities within it's area). Again, so does Foretelling.
Translating Possibilities into something that is directly comprehensible by
the user/recipient of the information is a trick in and unto itself.

And as for your last sentence above, here's a thought. That sentence applies
to all forms of communication/investigative media known to mankind now, in our
own electronic age. People have developed or learned how to *speak* in
different languages in order to advance the sciences and our understanding of
things in general. This is likely the same for Magic.

Can Magic create a computer? Not in a direct sense perhaps, no. But if a
highly complex set of detection, illusion and maybe even manipulation energies
were applied into a series of linked anchorings, then who knows. It *might*
just do that as well. Imagine if you will one Anchoring possessing as it's
trigger mechanism, the effects given off from another anchoring. We call it
"Linking" here, and we've done it for some really complex traps and magical
engagements. Basically each anchoring becomes the circuit in a given array of
possibilities. Based on the outcome, various effects/end productions are
placed into action/existence.

That is a computer, like the abacus, just a very basic one, reverse engineered
in a not very constructive manner.

BUT, it could be done.

Now then, the better question we keep coming back to here seems to me to be
"Definition" of a given set of terms. Making note of D. Ghost's remarks', I
do think we need to find a given set of definable terms that are
understandable and comprehendable to us all.

Shall I start?

Are you reading this email?

This email is an opinion expressed by myself. I am converting it to a textual
reference for you to understand. The computer (via the modem) is transferring
that information to a central clearing house (the mailing list), which then
redistributes it to all of us list.members. You receive the mail and decide
whether or not you are interested in it (to whether or not you continue
reading it) or move on to the next post (and we all know there'll be plenty
more coming :). The decision is based upon the perception(s) you have of
yourself, your own biases and the textual data (read as: information)
presented before you. The entire act of processing and translating that
information is happening in your own mind. No where else.

Hell, that is the same description given to all aspects of complex
communication. Bias is often registered as "Noise" by those attempting to
receive the data. And in this case, your own views as to what information
and/or data is has created the "noise" that is interfering with our meeting
some form of commonality.

Language is the big one here. The Translate spell apparently is trying to
supercede the language centers of the mind that the individual's involved are
using. Now then, according to it's spell design structure, it has used a
"Minor Mental Interaction" and a not a "Deep Mind Interaction". But,
if
language is what is being superceded, then perhaps the spell design has been
applied incorrectly? Language is our "bias" between others. When we have a
common language, taught to use by a common instructor, with a common reference
guide, then the "bias" or "noise" is reduced. But the spell is not
doing
that. It is skipping the level where the "noise" occurs entirely.

Now then, we look at cybernetics and simsense interface understanding that has
been displayed by FASA for the SR Universe. At some level, that is what
simsense is doing as well. If you read deeply all that material, all you
discover is that simsense is triggering various events and event moments
within the cerebral cortex (mostly the language, visual and audial centers,
but occasionally drifting to others) and allowing the "bias" of the user to do
the final processing for them, and create the end *hoped for* end desired
effect. In this case, the "bias" is based upon social upbringings and various
societal triggers.

YOUR definition of whether or not magic can do all of this is almost
irrelevant at this point to me at least. Because it is obvious to me that the
magic is already doing what the tech is doing anyway. Just from a different
POV.

"Transformation Manipulation" in the hands of someone that understands radio
sciences could probably go a long way. Converting sound energy into a
broadcast radio signal via a spell is probably the same as that being done by
the physical/technological radio as well. The ability to "tap into a given
bandwidth" and perceive it is also out there, and a radio receiver does that
as well.

Now then, what's so different about converting analog signals to digital ones?
It's a level of complexity, yes? It is done commonly in our world, yes? And
someone who understands digital communication who gets his/her hands on
Magical Design could also probably come up with it as well. What, an
additional category of spell complexity towards it's final design? Okay,
believe it or not, that makes the spell only a +2M (using SR3's drain system
here). Come on, go figure it out yourself. It's in the books. Minor
Environmental change, Physical Spell, Sustained Spell, Caster Only (it's
converting the sound then releasing it, only the caster's voice is being
converted, nothing else). Depending on your spell design preferences, you
just got either a +2M or a +2S spell. Digital type communication is a drain
code higher, to reflect the slightly more complex method (again, the degree of
complexity is being based in our various opinions btw). Is that a major
thing???

Basically, when it comes down to it, this is all about Point-Of-View. And in
that area, we all have a lot of "Noise" to put up with.

-K
Message no. 4
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: From a Certain POV (Re: [SR3] Adept Powers)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 00:49:45 -0400
At 10:32 PM 10-10-98 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 10/10/1998 7:04:22 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
>starjammer@**********.COM writes:
>
>> Most of the Detection spells that deal with this sort of thing allow the
>> subject to sense emotional impulses or intents. A couple also increase
the
>> subject's natural ability to analyze those inputs. I haven't seen one yet
>> that allows the subject to understand something normally beyond human
>> comprehension.
>
>Okay, I'm really lost. Perhaps you should consider Combat Sense a LOT
closer.
>It gives positive time forward insight (by regarding the potential futures of
>various incidents/activities within it's area). Again, so does Foretelling.
>Translating Possibilities into something that is directly comprehensible by
>the user/recipient of the information is a trick in and unto itself.

I've considered it very closely. The spell brings the information to the
subject, and enhances the subject's ability to analyze that information.
The spell does not change the information, translate it, analyze it, fold,
spindle, or mutilate it. It only takes it from the environment and puts it
into the the subject's brain. The spell description says very plainly that
the analysis of that information takes place in the subject's subconscious
mind. The subconscious mind is doing the analyzing, not the spell. The
spell just gives the subject's mind a little boost to help it along those
paths.


>And as for your last sentence above, here's a thought. That sentence applies
>to all forms of communication/investigative media known to mankind now, in
our
>own electronic age. People have developed or learned how to *speak* in
>different languages in order to advance the sciences and our understanding of
>things in general. This is likely the same for Magic.
>
>Can Magic create a computer? Not in a direct sense perhaps, no. But if a
>highly complex set of detection, illusion and maybe even manipulation
energies
>were applied into a series of linked anchorings, then who knows. It *might*
>just do that as well. Imagine if you will one Anchoring possessing as it's
>trigger mechanism, the effects given off from another anchoring. We call it
>"Linking" here, and we've done it for some really complex traps and magical
>engagements. Basically each anchoring becomes the circuit in a given
array of
>possibilities. Based on the outcome, various effects/end productions are
>placed into action/existence.
>
>That is a computer, like the abacus, just a very basic one, reverse
engineered
>in a not very constructive manner.
>
>BUT, it could be done.

Yes. What you're talking about is called Boolean algebra, which is the
foundation for logical computing. What you refer to as Linkings are logic
gates. Your spell construct has what? Fewer than 10? Maybe 15? The
microchip that turns data packets into analog sound in a digital radio has
many thousands, if not millions. When you can equal that, let me know.
I'll be sure to stay far away from a magician that can anchor that many
spells and links together.

>Now then, the better question we keep coming back to here seems to me to be
>"Definition" of a given set of terms. Making note of D. Ghost's remarks', I
>do think we need to find a given set of definable terms that are
>understandable and comprehendable to us all.
>
>Shall I start?

Lead on, MacDuff.

>Are you reading this email?

Oh, yes. :)


<snip linguistics primer>

>YOUR definition of whether or not magic can do all of this is almost
>irrelevant at this point to me at least. Because it is obvious to me that
the
>magic is already doing what the tech is doing anyway. Just from a different
>POV.

Since you've ignored my point, I won't inflict it on you anymore. Your
conclusion is obvious to you, but I've already explained ad nauseum why to
my mind it's not so. The magic is not doing what the tech's doing. The
magic's doing what the magic does. The tech does what the tech does. The
two are not the same. One is the high road, one is the low. Sometimes,
the two arrive at the same destination; more often, they do not and cannot.

>"Transformation Manipulation" in the hands of someone that understands radio
>sciences could probably go a long way. Converting sound energy into a
>broadcast radio signal via a spell is probably the same as that being done by
>the physical/technological radio as well. The ability to "tap into a given
>bandwidth" and perceive it is also out there, and a radio receiver does that
>as well.

I've already conceded this. If we were talking analog radio, I'd probably
agree that it could be done. Hell, a dental filling can transduce RF
energy into sound waves, so I don't see why a spell couldn't. You did
actually read my earlier posts on this subject, right? ;)

>Now then, what's so different about converting analog signals to digital
ones?
>It's a level of complexity, yes? It is done commonly in our world, yes? And
>someone who understands digital communication who gets his/her hands on
>Magical Design could also probably come up with it as well. What, an
>additional category of spell complexity towards it's final design? Okay,
>believe it or not, that makes the spell only a +2M (using SR3's drain system
>here). Come on, go figure it out yourself. It's in the books. Minor
>Environmental change, Physical Spell, Sustained Spell, Caster Only (it's
>converting the sound then releasing it, only the caster's voice is being
>converted, nothing else). Depending on your spell design preferences, you
>just got either a +2M or a +2S spell. Digital type communication is a drain
>code higher, to reflect the slightly more complex method (again, the
degree of
>complexity is being based in our various opinions btw). Is that a major
>thing???

Yes, it's a major thing. It takes years to design and implement
communications protocols, and lots of math to make them work. Did you read
Mike Coleman's description of the process for digital radio? Hell, it's
even more complex than *I* thought. Writing it off to a quirk of spell
design and a drain level sounds, well, lame. Sorry, that's the word that
occurs. How's that line from Burning Bright go? "That's the most
simplistic explanation you're likely to get aside from 'I snap my fingers
and it goes POOF!'"

I just don't go in for the "magic can just do it" explanation, and it
really does not seem to fit the SR world.

>Basically, when it comes down to it, this is all about Point-Of-View. And in
>that area, we all have a lot of "Noise" to put up with.

Not with digital communications; error correction eliminates most of the
interference. ;)

>
>-K
>

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 5
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: From a Certain POV (Re: [SR3] Adept Powers)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 03:35:23 EDT
In a message dated 10/10/1998 11:53:38 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
starjammer@**********.COM writes:

> >Basically, when it comes down to it, this is all about Point-Of-View. And
> in
> >that area, we all have a lot of "Noise" to put up with.
>
> Not with digital communications; error correction eliminates most of the
> interference. ;)
>
Not if we aren't connected to the same server/network it doesn't. No pay, No
pass, No use.

-K

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