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Message no. 1
From: Ryan Bolduan <emeottrw@***.MRS.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:07:33 -0500
My current group of runners is doing a run against an "abandoned" R&D
complex on the northern UCAS boarder. They've got a blizzard outside,
and don't particularly want to stay inside anymore (at least that's what
I think they are planning). Any suggestions on how to handle frostbite
and hypothermia, the two things that I forgot to prepare for, but are
inevitable. At some point they are going to have to get wet too (don't
ask why), so I need to handle this situation as well.


/> Duct tape is like the force, it has a light and
/< a dark side and it binds the universe together.
O[\\\\\\(O):::<===============================================-
\< -- Ryan Bolduan
\> emeottrw@***.mrs.umn.edu
http://cda.mrs.umn.edu/~emeottrw/sr/sr.html
Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:36:23 -0600
While doing the Fandango, Ryan Bolduan wrote:
/
/ My current group of runners is doing a run against an "abandoned" R&D
/ complex on the northern UCAS boarder. They've got a blizzard outside,
/ and don't particularly want to stay inside anymore (at least that's what
/ I think they are planning). Any suggestions on how to handle frostbite
/ and hypothermia, the two things that I forgot to prepare for, but are
/ inevitable. At some point they are going to have to get wet too (don't
/ ask why), so I need to handle this situation as well.

Hypothermia occurs when the body can't sustain it's internal
temperature. The usual reasons for this are: the person is wearing
enough insulation (coat/sweater/etc), the person is in an environment
that is sucking heat from their body *very* quickly (immersed in cold
water, unprotected on a *very* cold day, unprotected on a windy cold
day, etc), the person's calorie intake is not sufficient and they are
not protected from the cold (hypothermia can occur on a moderately cool
day if a person isn't getting enough calories). The usual causes of
hypthermia are: immersion in cold water, getting caught in the cold
without sufficient protection, spending an extended ammount of time in
the cold, with protection, without food (even if you're bundled up like
an eskimo, if you don't eat you can suffer from hypothermia if you're
outside in the cold too long). Always take calories (energy bars for
long term energy, and candy for short term energy) with you when you go
out into the cold, no matter how well you're bundled up :)

Hypothermia is treated by warming the person back up. Sometimes if the
person has been cold for to long, or if they're just unlucky, their
internal heating system won't kick in and they will die (I suppose you
could equate this by having a person being treated for hypothermia by
having them roll a Body test).

Frostbite affects unprotected extremities first (toes, fingers, nose,
ears). How quickly frostbite sets in depends on how cold it is and/or
how windy it is. On a cold windy day you can suffer from frostbite
very quickly.

Frostbite will affect protected extremities if it is cold enough, and
the person's body can't generate enough heat to keep their extremities
warm. This can be thought of as an almost hypothermia. The person's
core temperature is okay, but not enough for their extremities. In
these cases feet, hands, arms and legs can be affected.

Everynow and then someone manages to suffer frostbite over a large
surface area, but not an extremity. This happens when a section of
skin is exposed to *very* cold conditions and frostbite sets in *very*
quickly (like a person going outside on a very cold windy day wearing
ski pants, a good hat, mittens, and a heavy T-shirt, leaving the skin
on their arms exposed). What this equates to is a cold burn, and
rarely requires amputation, just a good skin graft.

If frostbite damage is minor (small skin area) then the affected areas
will usually recover. If the frostbite is major and the affected area
has been killed down to the bone then the affected area is amputated.

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 3
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:35:59 -0400
> My current group of runners is doing a run against an "abandoned" R&D
> complex on the northern UCAS boarder. They've got a blizzard outside,
> and don't particularly want to stay inside anymore (at least that's
> what
> I think they are planning). Any suggestions on how to handle
> frostbite
> and hypothermia, the two things that I forgot to prepare for, but are
> inevitable. At some point they are going to have to get wet too
> (don't
> ask why), so I need to handle this situation as well.
>
Icky icky icky.

<Medical discussion of real world effects of hypothermia>
Well frostbite usually sets in on areas of poor
circulation first, fingers, toes, noses. As long as they aren't out for
too long and everything is pretty covered, they should be safe there.
Also remember if you smack them with frostbite on their nose, they are
gonna lose it. The tissue is dead, it will never warm up since all the
blood vessels rupture when the blood freezes. Bad.

Hypothermia is more deadly and much easier to get
(ironically). Just getting too cold can do it, water is not required.
Most hypothermia cases happen when the weather is a nice 50 degrees (F).
People are still trying to wear shorts and don't think about it.
The first stages of hypo are akin to a light delirium.
You get fuzzy. You shiver a lot. Conversations are hard to follow, you
tend to forget things, leave your backpack behind etc. In later stages
you stop being cold (kinda like heat stroke when you stop sweating).
This gets a lot of folks who think, "Oh I was fuzzy for I while but I'm
ok now.". Continuing at this stage is very risky. Your body is panicking
(even if you aren't). It is already cutting blood flow to the
extremities in an effort to maintain 98.6 in the torso area. Needless to
say this doesn't help with frostbite.
Eventually you'll pass out, or more likely "take a
break". You get really sleepy since the brain is not getting enough O2.
Hallucinations are not uncommon at this stage either. Once you pass out
you are in deep dog doo. You need help and heat ASAP or you are gonna
die. Its a nice pleasant death granted, but dead is dead.
Being in water makes all this worse. Getting in water
and then out again makes it doubly bad. Most cold weather stuff now is
designed to remain warm even when its wet but the showy stuff doesn't.
Wool most notably and a few random synthetics will still keep you warm
when they are wet but most fibers (like cotton or polyester) won't.
Anyway that's what I remember from my first aid
training. I'm sure the local EMT will give you a more detailed
description and probably correct a few things but that's how it work in
RL.
</Medical crap>

<game stuff>
In the game its kinda hard to model, since a lot of
hypothermia is mental. Maybe rolls to remember where you are going.
Definite body checks to see if you "take a break". Any time you aren't
moving you're gonna need to roll to stay awake (with TN's getting higher
as it progresses). Shooting anything is gonna be tough between the
"pain" of the cold and the shivering I'd give everyone a +2-3 to hit,
higher in the "fuzzy" stages of hypothermia.
Be careful how you run it. Don't say "Oddly, you aren't
cold anymore.", try "Your feeling better, maybe you're finally adjusting
to this cold thing.". This is the second stage of hypothermia.

If you have it or some spare money, "Missions" has a
cold weather insertion by a team of UCAS Green Berets. They have some
rules in there but I don't have it with me here at work. I know there
were some hallucinations that faded over time. Most of the players were
supposed to still be having hallucinations once the reached the compound
(which is messed up enough to cause them anyway).
</game stuff>

Happy hunting...
Message no. 4
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:44:14 -0400
> Hypothermia occurs when the body can't sustain it's internal
<snip>
> has been killed down to the bone then the affected area is amputated.
>
> -David
>
There's the EMT....:)
Message no. 5
From: Ryan Bolduan <emeottrw@***.MRS.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:49:25 -0500
Snip text from David Buehrer

I appologize if I wasn't clear enough. I'm actually from Minnesota, so I
know all the in's and out's of frostbite and hypothermia. I was looking
for game mechanics though. Thanks anyway Daivid.



/> Duct tape is like the force, it has a light and
/< a dark side and it binds the universe together.
O[\\\\\\(O):::<===============================================-
\< -- Ryan Bolduan
\> emeottrw@***.mrs.umn.edu
http://cda.mrs.umn.edu/~emeottrw/sr/sr.html
Message no. 6
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:49:21 -0400
At 08:07 AM 9-23-98 -0500, Ryan wrote:

>My current group of runners is doing a run against an "abandoned" R&D
>complex on the northern UCAS boarder. They've got a blizzard outside,
>and don't particularly want to stay inside anymore (at least that's what
>I think they are planning). Any suggestions on how to handle frostbite
>and hypothermia, the two things that I forgot to prepare for, but are
>inevitable. At some point they are going to have to get wet too (don't
>ask why), so I need to handle this situation as well.

Just off the top of my head: Assign a damage code representing the
weather. Power is variable based on conditions, but the damage level would
probably be Deadly Stun for a base level. I'd probably go Power 4 for cold
but clear, adding modifiers for wind, snow, sleet, etc. Rate their
clothing as cold-weather gear and subtract that from the Power of the
attack, also modify in their favor for physical exertion and body-type (it
pays to be fat in this circumstance, while waif-elfs are probably dead).
If the Power of the weather does not exceed their gear, they're safe. If
it does, resolve the attack as per the rules for self-detonating
grenades/explosives (SR3, pp. 119-120). Stun damage is hypothermia,
physical damage is frostbite. Keep in mind that any uninsulated part of
the body is subject to the attack, and that extremities will have less
protection than the core body (+2 to Damage resistance tests). Reaching
Deadly Physical damage in an extremity means that it's time for amputation.
I'll leave it to you to decide how vulnerable cyberlimbs are to the cold.
I'll also leave it to you to decide how often you want to apply the damage.
I'd say no more often than every 10 minutes, no less often than every 30
minutes in the open, and about every 60 minutes in an unheated shelter.

If they've got actual cold-weather gear, it's probably water-proofed, so
anything short of a total soaking won't change things too much. Anything
not waterproof, however, will become effectively useless against the cold
as it gets soaked, reduce ratings appropriately. Water is a phenomenal
conductor of heat away from the body. Some survival suits are designed to
protect against immersion in freezing water, but I doubt they're that
prepared. ;) If they do wind up immersed in freezing water, then basically
they have about their unaugmented Body in minutes before they're dead,
period. (However, I personally would allow them to invoke the Hand of God
rule for revivification if their body can be rescued and taken to a good
facility in quick time. "They're not dead until they're *warm* and dead.")

All this is just off the top of my head, and IMHO. If anybody's got
anything better, let's hear it.

Starjammer | "Would it help if we sacrificed a
goat?"
starjammer@**********.com | -- Street sam "Crusher" Carlson
to mage
Marietta, GA | Straight Blue, on a really bad day
Message no. 7
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:55:05 -0500
----------
> From: Ryan Bolduan <emeottrw@***.MRS.UMN.EDU>
>
> My current group of runners is doing a run against an "abandoned" R&D
> complex on the northern UCAS boarder. They've got a blizzard outside,
> and don't particularly want to stay inside anymore (at least that's what
> I think they are planning). Any suggestions on how to handle frostbite
> and hypothermia, the two things that I forgot to prepare for, but are
> inevitable. At some point they are going to have to get wet too (don't
> ask why), so I need to handle this situation as well.

My suggestion would be a resisting a damage test with (Hours * 3)L damage,
every hour if its just freezing, a bit more often if its really cold (if
its 0 F, for example, I would make it every 15 minutes). Impact (but not
dermal) armor helps, so does the adept power of temperature tolerance (bet
they wish they took that now, eh?) plus if they have reasonably
appropriate gear (a heavy coat and normal boots), cut it down to (Hours
*2)L damage, and with good gear (a parka and winter weight boots) cut it
down to (Hours)L Damage. Eventually, they'll fail a test or two. If they
manage to invoke the Rule of 1, it should cost them a body part (start
with fingers, toes, ears, and the tip of the nose), as should every box of
damage above the base for Serious.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
I am a rovin' sportin' blade
they call me Jack of all Trades
I always found my chief delight
in courting pretty fair maids.
-"The Dublin Jack of All Trades"
*
"Puritanism: the haunting fear that somebody, somewhere, might be having a
good time."
--H.L. Mencken
Message no. 8
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:13:53 -0400
On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Ryan Bolduan wrote:

->My current group of runners is doing a run against an "abandoned" R&D
->complex on the northern UCAS boarder. They've got a blizzard outside,
->and don't particularly want to stay inside anymore (at least that's what
->I think they are planning). Any suggestions on how to handle frostbite
->and hypothermia, the two things that I forgot to prepare for, but are
->inevitable. At some point they are going to have to get wet too (don't
->ask why), so I need to handle this situation as well.

I don't think you're going to find rules for it. I'll try
throwing my two cents in, to help out a fellow GM, though.
Temperatures (Celcius) below 10: Have the character make a
Body(#) roll to resist Light physical damage. At the same time, have them
make a Willpower(#) roll to resist Light mental damage [you start getting
really sleepy when it gets cold]. The # can be determined by finding out
how many degrees it is (counting wind-chill) from 10 degrees Celcius,
divide the result by 5 and round down. Damage resistance occurs every 10
minutes if active, every minute if inactive. Impact armor (it's
insulative properties) will help reduce the target number.
If the PCs have equipment to keep them warm, reduce the target
number appropriately. If the power of the cold is reduced to 0 or below,
they still need to make a Body roll against a 2 in order to not start
sweating. If the character starts sweating, assume they are wet and use
the wet modifiers for damage due to cold.
If the characters are wet, triple windspeed to determine
wind-chill _and_ double the final target number.
After the PCs get somewhere warm, have each of them make a Body
roll, adjusted for injuries, against the total physical damage they took.
Failure indicates an infection has taken place. It should have a power
equal to physical damage they took minus the number of successes they
rolled, with a damage category equal to the damage category they were at
from freezing.
Hope this helps. Native-born Alaskan, signing off. ]:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 9
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:11:03 -0600
While doing the Fandango, bryan.covington@****.COM wrote:
/
/ > Hypothermia occurs when the body can't sustain it's internal
/ <snip>
/ > has been killed down to the bone then the affected area is amputated.
/ >
/ > -David
/ There's the EMT....:)

Sorry, but no :) I grew up in the mountains of Colorado, spent some
time playing in creeks and streams that were fed by glaciers, and did a
lot of skiing. It's more from personal experience with the cold
(somehow I managed to dodge frostbite and hypothermia) and the
experiences of friends and neighbors (who weren't so lucky). Also,
every year there's at least one person who dies from hypothermia in
Colorado, and at least one that suffers from severe frostbite, and the
local news gives an in depth report on what causes hypothermia and
frostbite and how to avoid them. And since I'm fascinated by weather
and what it can do, I pay attention :)

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 10
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:04:17 -0600
While doing the Fandango, Ryan Bolduan wrote:
/
/ Snip text from David Buehrer
/
/ I appologize if I wasn't clear enough. I'm actually from Minnesota, so I
/ know all the in's and out's of frostbite and hypothermia. I was looking
/ for game mechanics though. Thanks anyway Daivid.

Okay :)

As someone else said I'd figure out the Power and Damage Level for
Hypothermia based on the conditions the character is exposed to. I'd
base the Power on how quickly conditions can suck heat out of a
person. The colder it is, the higher the power (maybe equal to 60
minus temperature (in Farenheit) divided by 10 (round up)). The
windier, the higher the power (maybe +1 per 10mph of wind). The
wetter, the higher the power (maybe +1 for drizzle/fog, +2 for rain).
I'd base the Damage Level at a fixed level, like falling damage.
Placing the damage level at Light sounds about right. Treat the damage
as Stun.

I would have the characters resist damage based on the Power Level of
the cold and their protection. Place the base time at 60 minutes
divided by the difference between their protection and the power
level. If a person is exposed to 10L cold and their protection is
rated at 8, they would resist damage every 30 minutes (60/(10-8)). The
rating of their protection also subtracts from the Power of the cold
for the resistance test. Modify the resistance test if the character's
energy output is greater than their calorie intake (a negative
modifier) or if the character is burning energy and has sufficient
calorie intake (a positive modifier).

If their protection rating exceeds the Power of the cold they resist 2L
damage every hour. If their protection rating is more than twice the
Power of the cold, they don't have to make a damage resistance test (in
this case the person is bundled up so well that energy from fat
reserves is enough to offset any minimal heat loss).

The protection rating of cold weather clothing only needs one rating
(60 - (the clothing's temperature rating)/10 (round down)). So, a coat
rated to -50 degrees had a rating of 11. However, a note needs to be
made as to whether or not the clothing will provide protetion when
subjected to drizzle/fog/rain (i.e., is is waterproof), and whether it
will provide protection (and how much) if it's drenched in water (the
character falls in a lake).

I would test for frostbite seperately. I would test for frostbite for
skin/extremities exposed to freezing cold (32 Farenheit or less,
adjusted for wind), and test for extremities if the character takes
Deadly stun from hypothermia. I'd have the character make an
(unenhanced) Body(4) test every 10 minutes (increase the TN by +1 and
decrease the time 1 minute for every 5 degrees below 32 Farenheit) and
keep track of how many times they fail (for hypothermia test for
frostbite when the character's stun reaches Deadly, and each time they
take physical damage from hypothermia). For each test after the first
increase the TN by +1. If the character fails one test the experience
is painful; fail two tests and the exposed areas suffer minor skin
damage (will heal on it's own); fail three tests and you need skin
grafts; fail four tests and you're looking at amputation. If dead
parts aren't amputated the character can look forward to gang
green(sp?) (have the character test verses disease).

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 11
From: Mike Elkins <Mike_Elkins@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:47:47 -0400
How about the following rules:
Every 10 minutes to an hour, make 2 attacks against the characters, one
stun (hypothermia) and one physical ( frostbite ). The severity of the
conditions produce the damage codes, both usually light, unless you are wet
when the damage codes jump up to serious. Good clothing acts as armor
against both attacks, with slightly different modifiers: uncovered hands
shouldn't give you hypothermia but mean you are almost unarmored against
frostbite. Being hungry increases the power for hypothermia but not
frostbite etc. Frostbite damage is localized to the extremities, so once
you reach deadly, your extremities are incapacitated and you start taking
general physical damage, slowly. On the other hand, treat hypothermia
damage as the essence rating of a nature spirit with Confusion power (i.e.
if you have received 4 boxes of stun, resist as if you were being confused
by a force 4 nature spirit). When you receive deadly stun, you go to
sleep, and continue to receive overflow damage till you die.

Also, unlike most damage resistance tests, I'd apply damage modifiers to
these rolls (ouch!). It's hard to keep your scarf in place if you can't
move your fingers... and if you've lost some blood, tsk tsk...

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 19:47:41 +0200
According to Ryan Bolduan, at 8:07 on 23 Sep 98, the word on the street
was...

> My current group of runners is doing a run against an "abandoned" R&D
> complex on the northern UCAS boarder. They've got a blizzard outside,
> and don't particularly want to stay inside anymore (at least that's what
> I think they are planning). Any suggestions on how to handle frostbite
> and hypothermia, the two things that I forgot to prepare for, but are
> inevitable. At some point they are going to have to get wet too (don't
> ask why), so I need to handle this situation as well.

I wrote up some house rules for exposure to (extreme) cold, which I've
pasted below. I haven't tested them, though, so if you (or anyone else)
decides to use them, I'd appreciate some feedback.


Damage from cold environments has a Power Level based on the temperature,
while the Damage Level is based on the length of time a character is
exposed to the cold. The table below has guidelines to decide on this
damage. With a modified Power Level of 0 or less, there is no need to
check for damage. Check for damage every hour of exposure.
Damage from the cold is Physical, not Stun, and will usually take the form
of frozen extremities such as fingers and toes that cannot be saved.

TEMPERATURE POWER LEVEL
0 to -5 C 0
-6 to -10 C 3
-11 to -15 C 5
-16 to -25 C 8
-26 C or lower 11

Being soaked +3
Wearing body armor -(1/2 Impact)
Wearing insulated
clothing -(rating)
Wearing no winter
clothing at all +2

EXPOSURE TIME DAMAGE LEVEL
Up to 3 hours L
Up to 6 hours M
Up to 1 day S
More than 1 day D

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Unconsciousness is no excuse.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 23:05:51 +0000
> > My current group of runners is doing a run against an "abandoned"
R&D
> > complex on the northern UCAS boarder. They've got a blizzard outside,
> > and don't particularly want to stay inside anymore (at least that's what
> > I think they are planning). Any suggestions on how to handle frostbite
> > and hypothermia, the two things that I forgot to prepare for, but are
> > inevitable. At some point they are going to have to get wet too (don't
> > ask why), so I need to handle this situation as well.

Read all your answers and they all appear to be ok and well thought
true. Having no personal experience from either frostbites or
hypothermia even thou I live in Sweden (you know the place where the
polarbear roam in the streets :)). All my experience of this is what
they thought us in the Navy which is a very cold and wet place.

There are a few pointers I could share.

Regarding both of them I would recommend some form of willpower
checks after awhile cause suffering from them is said to have quite
an overwhelming effect on your mind.

Weird things like even thou your freezing your butt of out there you
are sweating like a dog which makes you take clothes of which will
without a doubt turn you into a giant popsicle. I don't recall at
what temperatures this things happend but I could check that out and
get back on that if there isn't a doctor or someone with medical
knowledge on the list.

No matter how much bodyheat and clothes you have on you have to
consume waste amounts of candy/energybars and liquids. If you forgot
them then you can pretty much start to pray.

After you get out of the cold and into safty you have to warm
yourself up slowly. Getting ten blankets and turning the heat to max
while drinking gallons of hot liquids are sure to put you under to.
This happend several times durring WWII. Enlisted men was left with a
simple blanket in a room and officers was put in bed with loads of
blankets and heat Most enlisten men survived this but the officers
didn't. I think it has something to do with a big time chock to the
system and that all that cold blood.

/Stefan


------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!" - Sinjin the decker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... E-Mail .............................. casanova@***.passagen.se ...
... HomePage .............................. http://hsl.home.ml.org ...
... HomePage ................... http://www.bugsoft.hik.se/sl11ls/ ...
... ICQ .................................................. 1403212 ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 14
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:44:41 -0400
Hey, wait a minute. Aren't there some sort of cold weather rules in the
military adventure in Missions? I seem to recall something regarding a
blizzard the PCs get caught in, so maybe there's something in there.

Be worth a look anyway.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 15
From: Matthew Waddilove <matthew@*********.U-NET.COM>
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:36:50 +0100
From: Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>

>> > My current group of runners is doing a run against an "abandoned"
R&D
>> > complex on the northern UCAS boarder. They've got a blizzard outside,
>> > and don't particularly want to stay inside anymore (at least that's
what
>> > I think they are planning). Any suggestions on how to handle frostbite
>> > and hypothermia, the two things that I forgot to prepare for, but are
>> > inevitable. At some point they are going to have to get wet too (don't
>> > ask why), so I need to handle this situation as well.
>

<SNIP>
>After you get out of the cold and into safty you have to warm
>yourself up slowly. Getting ten blankets and turning the heat to max
>while drinking gallons of hot liquids are sure to put you under to.
>This happend several times durring WWII. Enlisted men was left with a
>simple blanket in a room and officers was put in bed with loads of
>blankets and heat Most enlisten men survived this but the officers
>didn't. I think it has something to do with a big time chock to the
>system and that all that cold blood.


Another note on the point of warming up slowly is Trauma Trousers
These are inflateable trousers that keep blood in the torso by
stopped/slowing blood flow to the legs.
Something that is usefull when dealing with cases of trauma, However most
definately NOT(EGM hint) to be used in cases of hypothermia!!!
As has happened in this country by a mountain rescue team that had reciently
received the trauma trousers and used them on a rescued person only to find
that that person died very quickly as the freezing cold blood from the legs
was forced into the torso and caused the heart so stop quite suddenly.

<EGM hat on> Now if it just happened that one of the chars called out
docwagon or someone else with a lot of nifty equipment and a minimum of
skill they might use such a device and unfortuanately cause more harm than
good.


-Matthew Waddilove

PS I think your reply-to is overriding the list Stefan
Message no. 16
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:48:15 -0400
On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Matthew Waddilove wrote:

<snip hypothermia>
->Another note on the point of warming up slowly is Trauma Trousers
->These are inflateable trousers that keep blood in the torso by
->stopped/slowing blood flow to the legs.

I'd like to point out that, as someone who's used trauma pants (as
we called them in our class) and worn them, you cannot move while you are
wearing them worth a damn. Also, if you pump them up to much in someone
who's healthy, you raise their blood pressure a LOT!. (Made one girl pass
out in class, and we hadn't even pumped them very much.....)

->Something that is usefull when dealing with cases of trauma, However most
->definately NOT(EGM hint) to be used in cases of hypothermia!!!
->As has happened in this country by a mountain rescue team that had reciently
->received the trauma trousers and used them on a rescued person only to find
->that that person died very quickly as the freezing cold blood from the legs
->was forced into the torso and caused the heart so stop quite suddenly.

Yep. Plus, since you usually remove the pants from the individual
before putting the trauma pants on them, they have no insulation (air
doesn't count) to protect them from getting even colder faster.

-><EGM hat on> Now if it just happened that one of the chars called out
->docwagon or someone else with a lot of nifty equipment and a minimum of
->skill they might use such a device and unfortuanately cause more harm than
->good.

From an EMT professional standpoint, it wouldn't be lack of skill,
it'd be lack of intelligence. That's just plain common sense not to put a
pair of trauma pants on a freeze victim, even if they're bleeding and
losing blood pressure, unless _the victim will die without it_. The EMT
motto is "do no harm", which in Florida means we can't even stick a needle
into a patient (but we can help them administer their own drugs to
themselves, grey area). Amputation of the legs is, usually (I know there
are exceptions), preferrable to dying for most patients.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 17
From: Tania Evans <Tania-Ann.Evans@****.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 17:03:04 +0200
I've followed this thread so far - and found all your posts very
informative - just one thing I thought of:
What would happen if someone were projecting astrally while being
exposed to severe cold?
AFAIK the mage is not aware of his/her body, so what would happen?
IMO the slow onset of hypothermia - meaning the physical body is
slowly freezing to death - could become a problem...
Any suggestions for handling this situation?

Tania
Message no. 18
From: Ryan Bolduan <emeottrw@***.MRS.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:08:10 -0500
<snip hypothermia>
->Another note on the point of warming up slowly is Trauma Trousers
->These are inflateable trousers that keep blood in the torso by
->stopped/slowing blood flow to the legs.

Fixer mentioned something about this, but I thought I would add a little
more. In my EMT class we refered to them as MAST (Military Anti-Shock
Trousers) or PASG (Pnumatic Anti-Shock Garment). They were originally
designed to keep the blood in the heads of early fighter pilots in tight
turns, somebody noticed that they worked in trauma situations and
violia! Now if I remeber correctly these are used in the situations
that the pants say, where the body has gone into shock. It's a great way
to get the blood pressure higher in the upper part off the body. You
can't use them if there has been any lung trauma (read sucking chest wound,
punctured lung, other goodies) though. One must remember though that
they are not fun to wear as just about all you can do is lay there.
Another small problem is that to remove the pants you have to slowly let
the pressure out (over about a half an hour for fully inflated pants) and
even then inflating the pants on somebody that does not need it is not a
good idea.

As for your EGM idea, I can't say I agree with it. In general no EMT in
their right mind would even try such a stunt, lacking skill or no. Maybe
it would make a good torture device though. "Tell us what we want to
know or we'll make your head explode!!"


/> Duct tape is like the force, it has a light and
/< a dark side and it binds the universe together.
O[\\\\\\(O):::<===============================================-
\< -- Ryan Bolduan
\> emeottrw@***.mrs.umn.edu
http://cda.mrs.umn.edu/~emeottrw/sr/sr.html
Message no. 19
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:34:12 -0400
On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Tania Evans wrote:

->I've followed this thread so far - and found all your posts very
->informative - just one thing I thought of:
->What would happen if someone were projecting astrally while being
->exposed to severe cold?
->AFAIK the mage is not aware of his/her body, so what would happen?
->IMO the slow onset of hypothermia - meaning the physical body is
->slowly freezing to death - could become a problem...
->Any suggestions for handling this situation?

IMO? Nothing changes, except they are automatically considered
inactive. Their body will still be radiating heat into the environment at
the same rate, it's just that their metabolic processes will be slower,
and they're generate less heat...... hmmmmmm..... maybe it'll increase the
effects... <EGM stop now>

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 20
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:32:20 -0400
At 05:03 PM 9-24-98 +0200, you wrote:

>I've followed this thread so far - and found all your posts very
>informative - just one thing I thought of:
>What would happen if someone were projecting astrally while being
>exposed to severe cold?
>AFAIK the mage is not aware of his/her body, so what would happen?
>IMO the slow onset of hypothermia - meaning the physical body is
>slowly freezing to death - could become a problem...
>Any suggestions for handling this situation?
>
>Tania

Geez. After some consideration, and reversing my initial impression, I'd
say that astral projection would be a mixed blessing. The rules say that a
magician astrally projecting is instantly aware of any harm done to his
physical body. If we give the astral projector the benefit of the doubt
and say that their mind is not confused and impaired as it would be in
physical form, then they would probably feel their life slipping away as
their body weakened. And it would weaken fast, considering that astrally
projecting knocks the metabolism (and thereby the body's defense against
cold) down to almost nothing. OTOH, if the mind goes with the body
astrally as well as physically, then all bets are off. The astral form
would gradually weaken and become lethargic as the the mind became
confused, and the magician would be nearly helpless to stop it. Maybe a
Willpower test to focus and keep going.

Also, once the initial stages of hypothermia set in, I'd probably make it
very hard for the magician to project at all. The same dullness of mind,
will, and senses would hamper any attempts to do so.

IMHO, of course.

Starjammer | "Would it help if we sacrificed a
goat?"
starjammer@**********.com | -- Street sam "Crusher" Carlson
to mage
Marietta, GA | Straight Blue, on a really bad day
Message no. 21
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 01:39:38 +1000
>Also, once the initial stages of hypothermia set in, I'd probably make it
>very hard for the magician to project at all. The same dullness of mind,
>will, and senses would hamper any attempts to do so.

I don't know about this. I kinda like the idea that someone of someone
accidentally slipping into astral space when they're dying, hallucinating,
or whatever. It works especially well for shamans because they can talk to
their totems, run with them, and so on. This happens to Sam Verner in one
of the books of the Secrets of Power Trilogy, I can't quite remember which
one, though I'd hazard a guess that it's the first.

- ARKHAM
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste somebody with..."

ARKHAM'S ASYLUM ( http://www.asgard.net.au/~zzdeden/shadowrun/ )
Message no. 22
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:01:01 -0400
On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Starjammer wrote:

->At 05:03 PM 9-24-98 +0200, you wrote:
->
->>I've followed this thread so far - and found all your posts very
->>informative - just one thing I thought of:
->>What would happen if someone were projecting astrally while being
->>exposed to severe cold?
->>AFAIK the mage is not aware of his/her body, so what would happen?
->>IMO the slow onset of hypothermia - meaning the physical body is
->>slowly freezing to death - could become a problem...
->>Any suggestions for handling this situation?
->>
->>Tania
->
->their body weakened. And it would weaken fast, considering that astrally
->projecting knocks the metabolism (and thereby the body's defense against
->cold) down to almost nothing.

Maybe that suprathyroid gland & symbiotes have some more uses
after all....... ]:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 23
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:18:19 -0400
At 10:48 AM 9/24/98 -0400, you wrote:

>->Another note on the point of warming up slowly is Trauma Trousers
>->These are inflateable trousers that keep blood in the torso by
>->stopped/slowing blood flow to the legs.

Called MAST pants most often here in CA. To my recollection, they aren't
used here; they aren't deemed very safe, not very effective and can damage
a person like a tourniquet can. That's how California views them anyway.
We still had to learn what they are and what they do, since procedure and
practice does change fairly often.

> From an EMT professional standpoint, it wouldn't be lack of skill,
>it'd be lack of intelligence. That's just plain common sense not to put a
>pair of trauma pants on a freeze victim, even if they're bleeding and

Well, if you've got a clue in your head, yes. There are stupid people and
there are stupid EMT's though...

>losing blood pressure, unless _the victim will die without it_. The EMT
>motto is "do no harm", which in Florida means we can't even stick a needle
>into a patient (but we can help them administer their own drugs to
>themselves, grey area).

I believe that's pretty much national. We can (or I used to) assist a
patient with their insulin, bee sting kits, etc. EMT-P's (Paramedics) and
some EMT-I's (Intermediates) can though stick the needles though; hell, a
major part of what Paramedics do is start IVs.

To break it down in simplest terms and broad overstatements, in the hope
that someone will find it useful (perhaps DocWagon games or DocWagon
related adventures), here's the basic breakdown.

EMT-B (Basic): What you find in most ambulances. Trained more in-depth in
CPR and in First Aid, but it's honestly not a whole lot more than your
normal Red Cross CPR/First Aid training. Spinal management techniques are
pretty big too. Additional information on anatomy, basic diagnosis and
various other bits like triage.

EMT-I (Intermediate): Same as above. Also allowed to intubate people.
Some places also allow them to use *automated* "paddles" on cardiac arrest
patients.

EMT-P (Paramedic): Same as both above. Also allowed to use normal
"paddles" (completely blank on their proper name, damn), start IVs and to
inject a certain limited regimen of drugs. Advanced anatomy and advanced
diagnosis.

Keep in mind that the entire purpose of the EMT isn't to cure the patient.
It's to keep them alive (or at least viable...) until they can get to a
hospital and turn their patient over to an ER doctor. The Doctor has far
more training, better support and superior equipment to the EMT.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the entire US system of EMS arose out
of the experiences first in Korea and then especially in Vietnam. 30 years
ago, they would simply pick up the victim, stick'em in back of a station
wagon and drive really fast to a hospital, providing no care along the way.

This isn't the case necessarily outside the US however. In Europe (France
at least), I understand that doctors ride along in ambulances as standard
procedure. At first glance, this might seem superior. But a doctor in an
ambulance doesn't have all the gear, drugs and support really needed to
handle many cases thrown his way. And indeed, many times this actually
causes a delay in getting the patient to a well-staffed and equipped ER.
The entire Princess Diana crash situation is indicative of this sort of
thing, and what can happen if a patient isn't gotten into the hands of a
well staffed and equipped ER ASAP.

Hope this is helpful to a few people.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 24
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:23:15 EDT
In a message dated 9/24/98 10:04:51 AM US Eastern Standard Time, Tania-
Ann.Evans@****.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE writes:

> I've followed this thread so far - and found all your posts very
> informative - just one thing I thought of:
> What would happen if someone were projecting astrally while being
> exposed to severe cold?
> AFAIK the mage is not aware of his/her body, so what would happen?
> IMO the slow onset of hypothermia - meaning the physical body is
> slowly freezing to death - could become a problem...
> Any suggestions for handling this situation?

I would make the progression of hypothermia far faster than normal, as the
person's body has basically gone into shut-down mode while the mind has
basically flown the koop.

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 25
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Frostbite and hypothermia
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 01:16:07 -0400
Erik Jameson wrote:


<snip-O-Rama>

> EMT-P (Paramedic): Same as both above. Also allowed to use normal
> "paddles" (completely blank on their proper name, damn),

Defibrillator, I believe.


--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm

Further Reading

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