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Message no. 1
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Fudge? ; destroying links
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:25:40 PDT
>NPC's have ritual links they will use on the PC, the player
>eventually remmembered the problem (after a hint that he was
>forgetting some class 1 critical to his character), now he has a
>problem, i know you can destroy ritual links [it's done in the novels
>a couple of times but by VERY powerful characters]
>Mark
>
We haveseveral Pc's with that problem, although they are QUITE
concious of it. Lost foci / theses will do that, doncha know? Anyhow,
they are wracking thier brains forsolutions, andabig astral concealment
quest is the best I can offer. The playershave good magic theory and
contacts.
Anyhow, I've never read that novel, so could you PLEASE email me
andtell me the possible method. I'm still undecidedasto wheter linked
items can be tracked- it says you can go from item to target, and it
kinda sounds like you can go the other way, but that doesn't work for
ritual samples, so I'm loathe to have it work for something like foci.

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands of a
psycotic - Einstien

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Message no. 2
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Fudge? ; destroying links
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:33:41 GMT
Mon goose writes

i'll answer all this here.

> >NPC's have ritual links they will use on the PC, the player
> >eventually remmembered the problem (after a hint that he was
> >forgetting some class 1 critical to his character), now he has a
> >problem, i know you can destroy ritual links [it's done in the novels
> >a couple of times but by VERY powerful characters]
> >Mark
> >
> We haveseveral Pc's with that problem, although they are QUITE
> concious of it. Lost foci / theses will do that, doncha know? Anyhow,
> they are wracking thier brains forsolutions, andabig astral concealment
> quest is the best I can offer. The playershave good magic theory and
> contacts.
Yes that would help. You can quest to conceal links as pre the
grimoire, a good idea regardless for Thesis etc.

> Anyhow, I've never read that novel, so could you PLEASE email me
> andtell me the possible method.
If memory serves the Novel is Black Madonna, what follows might be
slight spoilers but doesn't cover any novel plot stuff.
The operation involved Serrins wife (Serrin being the elven mage from
several novels) anyway some folks had a hold over her after the last
book (when they got a ritual link) and the guy from Prime Runners
('German' Elf / Glastonbury, call Hessler something) called up a huge
great spirit to trace the link back to the ritual sample and destroy
it. The problem here is reading the novel indicates he is at the very
least an immortal elf trained spike baby if not a full blown immortal
elf (ie taking the more powerful of the options prime runners
suggests for the guy)

> I'm still undecidedasto wheter linked
> items can be tracked- it says you can go from item to target, and it
> kinda sounds like you can go the other way, but that doesn't work for
> ritual samples, so I'm loathe to have it work for something like foci.
>
It never states you cannot use 'Joe bloggs as a ritual link to Joe
Blogg's blood sample', though it's not normal. I did have a case once
of 'can we use the dragons egg to trace the father!' [Father being
expected rather soon and they wanted to explain their lack of guilt
before they were too flamable to speak]. Well it was a good idea so
it got allowed.

I have had one player ask an NPC to check for links to himself and
after a few moments though said the NPC could do it, but then said NPC
has magic theory plus a few other things over 10.

I would be interested i list opinion on this but i would feel inclned
to say 'if its a link to you then you are a link to it' but limit the
non-standard tracing to 'very capable' magicians in the campain world
so for most folks losing foci etc is still a problem.

There is also the related problem of watcher spirits, although
initiates get to add their grade to the watchers TN clever players
use watcher conjouring materials for 4 day watchers that just keep
trying and trying till they roll that 12 and find the target! In high
paying games its often well worth the 4000 yen with what i charge
for ringing every fixer in sight and a lot lower profile.

If memory serves my suggested solution to this last is in Shadowrun
Supplemental issue 3.

Mark
Message no. 3
From: David Mezerette <mezeretted@*****.U-NANCY.FR>
Subject: Re: Fudge? ; destroying links
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:07:54 +0100
>It never states you cannot use 'Joe bloggs as a ritual link to Joe
>Blogg's blood sample', though it's not normal. I did have a case once
>of 'can we use the dragons egg to trace the father!' [Father being
>expected rather soon and they wanted to explain their lack of guilt
>before they were too flamable to speak]. Well it was a good idea so
>it got allowed.

do u mean u could trace someone's father just w/ this 'someone' at hand?..it
sounds unlikely to me: they don't have the same gene pool.

ChYlD
mezeretted@*****.u-nancy.fr
Message no. 4
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Fudge? ; destroying links
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:27:51 GMT
David Mezerette writes

> >It never states you cannot use 'Joe bloggs as a ritual link to Joe
> >Blogg's blood sample', though it's not normal. I did have a case once
> >of 'can we use the dragons egg to trace the father!' [Father being
> >expected rather soon and they wanted to explain their lack of guilt
> >before they were too flamable to speak]. Well it was a good idea so
> >it got allowed.
>
> do u mean u could trace someone's father just w/ this 'someone' at hand?..it
> sounds unlikely to me: they don't have the same gene pool.
>
Agreed your case i would agree.
The 'specific' example you picked out was an 'unhatched egg' not a
baby and was a good idea to get the partyu out of a potentially nasty
situation Johnson's double dealing not thier mistakes had got them in
so i allowed it on the 'good and clever, fine do it' basis without
worrying too much about the general applicability implications rather
than stopping the game for hours while we scoured the rules for the
implications of the descision.

Mark
Message no. 5
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Fudge? ; destroying links
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 14:38:32 PDT
<snipped about PC's wishing to deal with "lost" links of various sorts>

> Glastonbury, call Hessler something) called up a huge
>great spirit to trace the link back to the ritual sample and destroy
>it. The problem here is reading the novel indicates he is at the very
>least an immortal elf trained spike baby if not a full blown immortal
>elf (ie taking the more powerful of the options prime runners
>suggests for the guy)

That sort of stuff really rankles me. Just because he's got ins with
the old mages,he can do shit the book doesn't even hint is possible? I
mean, yeah, so its a high force greatform. Big deal- one of the
characters I'm talking about keeps force 5 great form elementals on tap!
It would have to be VERY high force for its search power to be effective
in a large enough area to find the "missing" ritual item, and, AFAIK,
there isn't really another way. If the spirit can follow the link back,
a character should be able to as well. A big spirit would HELP,
especailly once it is found and needs to be destroyed.

>
>> I'm still undecided as to wheter linked
>> items can be tracked- it says you can go from item to target, and it
>> kinda sounds like you can go the other way, but that doesn't work for
>> ritual samples, so I'm loathe to have it work for something like
foci.
>>

>It never states you cannot use 'Joe bloggs as a ritual link to Joe
>Blogg's blood sample', though it's not normal. I did have a case once
>of 'can we use the dragons egg to trace the father!' [Father being
>expected rather soon and they wanted to explain their lack of guilt
>before they were too flamable to speak]. Well it was a good idea so
>it got allowed.

Its actually pretty clear that "joe" is not a ritual item for "joes
link"- look what constitutes a ritual link- a PART or REPRESENTATION of
a person, place, or item. It might be possible to createa
REPRESENTATION of a missing ritual sample, though-- that would be a
good,but hard, way to solve the problem. The grimoire gives examples of
TN modifiers for such links as artistic renderings and such.
As for the dragon egg, or any child of a target, I'd say its a
valid link on the "part of / representation" level, and also on the
level of a very emotionally signifigant object. Indeed, that might
apply between any people with emotional signifigance- like, say, members
of a team Karma pool. (Uh Oh.) Of course, that said, one could assume
a focus's owner is "signifigant" to the focus.

>
>I have had one player ask an NPC to check for links to himself and
>after a few moments though said the NPC could do it, but then said >NPC
has magic theory plus a few other things over 10.
>

"I don't think so, Tim." Sorry, as I said, I'm strongly against
NPC's with "incomprehensable" powers. Unobtainable powers, ok, but how
they opporate should be obtainable and usable knowledge. As the GM, you
at least should know and have a fairly consistant theory. AFAIK, part
of the POINT of ritual links is that they can be taken without the
targets knowledge (not easily, but...)
Again, a character with "ancient knowledge" blows that out the
window. We "extracted" a blood mage once, and he insisted that some of
us go with him (he had a spirit with astral gate) on a concealment
quest. Boy, were we pissed when we found out why... drain on a really
high rating metaplaner quest SUCKS if you don't have *some* way to over
come it. Of course, he did not have the option of going back and
kicking the butts of all the folks with his ritual links, or he might
have used some method to trace them back. Even what happened was pretty
credability straining to me. Of course, the "in-creadable" is part of
what the game is about.

>There is also the related problem of watcher spirits, although
>initiates get to add their grade to the watchers TN clever players
>use watcher conjouring materials for 4 day watchers that just keep
>trying and trying till they roll that 12 and find the target! In high
>paying games its often well worth the 4000 yen with what i charge
>for ringing every fixer in sight and a lot lower profile.

Interesting. I saw the price for watcher conjouring material, but not
any use- where is that from? In our game "watcher conjouring materials"
is a mage ruse to over-bill a corporation for trivial services. :)


Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psycotic - Einstien

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


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