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Message no. 1
From: Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:31:20 +0200
How the heck do Fuel-Air bombs work exactly? Are they cheap to build?
Any ideas on damage and area of effect?

I presume it would depend greatly on the type of fuel used.

Any tips would be appreciated...

-- BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>

<hard@****>

Theres nothing like a netfight
Everything is True
Nothing is Forbidden
Message no. 2
From: Bai Shen baishen@**********.com
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:42:50 -0400
> How the heck do Fuel-Air bombs work exactly?

They work by releasing a cloud of fuel, and then igniting the cloud.

> Are they cheap to build?
> Any ideas on damage and area of effect?

No idea.
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)
Message no. 3
From: Machine-gun Kelly mgkelly@****.com
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:23:25 -0400
> How the heck do Fuel-Air bombs work exactly? Are they cheap to build?
> Any ideas on damage and area of effect?

To make it simple, FABs have a core cylinder of explosives, surrounded
by a combustile fuel. They're dropped from cargo planes by parachute,
because they are fairly large [like bigger than a 55 gallon drum.
actually almost the size of a Volswagon Beetle] Once it reaches a
certain low-altitiude, the detonator activates and sets off the
explosives in the inner cylinder, which in turn ignites the fuel in the
outer cylinder, creating a big explosion. The mixture of chemicals sucks
the surrounding oxygen in from the atmosphere at the time of detonation
and that oxy feeds the explosion, making it even larger. Fuel-Air Bombs
can sometimes lay waste to as much as a mile diameter circle. It's the
most powerful non-nuclear weapon in the U.S. military's arsenal.

As far as cheap to build, everything is relative. Octol is what is used
to fuel the bomb, IIRC, and that is TNT combined with other, very
expensive, very, VERY, hard to get chemicals. Octol is only used in
military weapons, because it's way too expensive to use commercially. I
suppose characters could do it, if they don't mind spending 500K¥ [maybe
more] and a years worth of legwork. Of course, once they start [assuming
they can get. You have a better chance of getting a Firelance] trying to
buy the materials needed to make Octol, someone WILL take notice. Also,
they're going to need a plane with a cargo area [FAB's can be attached
to a regular hardpoint because they aren't aerodynamic. They look like a
almost oval shaped, flat on one end cylinder] and a ramp that can be
lowered, as well as a roller system on the floor to move the FAB from
storage to the end of the cargoe ramp. They'll also need to drop it from
at least a mile up or risk being hit with the shockwave. Even though the
bombs are dropped by parachute and fall slowly, they make a big BOOM
[caps. for emphasis]. If they drop it in a city, they'll knock out
several city blocks, and the gummint, megacorps, cops, Feds, organized
crime, and any other people in the area will be screaming for their
heads for committing such a huge terrorist act and killing so many
people, innocent or not.

As far as area of effect, a big military FAB can wipe clean [and I mean
almost nothing but dirt left] a square mile. A real small one might only
take five city blocks. maybe more depending on the chemical waste in the
atmosphere [lighting a cigarette in the area might not ignite it, but an
explosion of this magnitude sucking in and feeding off all the oxygen in
that area most likely would set off anything else flammable in the
oxygen. IIRC, oxy is flammable in and of itself.] Don't even bother
trying to set a Damage Code. Just tell them that the Earth is scorched.

Hope they have a deep hole to hide in. Like outer space.

MGK
--
"There are no stupid questions, just stupid people."
Message no. 4
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:42:34 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Bruce wrote:

> How the heck do Fuel-Air bombs work exactly?

Fuel Air Explosives (FAE's) work by dispersing a could of
combustible material, then igniting the resulting mixture.
This is done for a variety of reasons. First, it increases the
effective area over which the explosion will take place. Second, by
dispersing the fuel in a mist or cloud form, you increase the total
reactible surface area (i.e. the area of the droplet or particle exposed
to oxygen in the air). Finally, wide area dispersion means that there is
more air mixed in with the fuel, which means that your explosive is
properly respirated and the quantity of reactible oxygen isn't a limiting
factor in the power of the explosion.
The fuel used in fuel-air explosives can be virtually anything
combustible. Military FAE's tend to use something like kerosene. Solid
particulate matter can be used as well, and the accidental explosions
occasionally suffered by grain elevators are a form of FAE. I've even
heard of gaseous systems that disperse droplets of liquid propane,
which quickly evaporate into their natural gaseuous state and thus
disperse even further.

> Are they cheap to build?

Yes and no. The mechanics of fuel-air explosion are pretty
simple. You disperse your fuel, then light off a small incendiary charge
to ignite it. The hard part is the dispersal. If you can disperse your
fuel without igniting it, you're pretty much set. Typically, this is done
with frangible bomblets, compressed air, gravity, prevailing winds, or a
combination of all the above. Then it's just a matter of getting any kind
of incendiary charge somewhere in your cloud of explosive.

> Any ideas on damage and area of effect?

This is dependent on the amount, type, and degree of dispersion of
the fuel. If the bomb is big enough, the dispersion is wide enough, and
the fuel is volatile enough, you're talking about explosive power
measured in kilotons. Yes, I said kilotons. All the bang of a
tactical nuke, but without the EMP, blistering million degree heat, and
lingering radioactivity.
It can be much smaller however. You want to build your own FAE?
Take a 5 lb. bag of flour, soak it with kerosene, and drop it off a 6
story building. BOOM! It doesn't produce much power, but it's pretty
damn impressive.
Hope this helps, and if you do anything crazy, you didn't learn it
from me. :)

Marc
Message no. 5
From: Josh strago@***.com
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:04:07 -0400
Machine-gun Kelly wrote:

> > How the heck do Fuel-Air bombs work exactly? Are they cheap to build?
> > Any ideas on damage and area of effect?
>
> To make it simple, FABs have a core cylinder of explosives, surrounded
> by a combustile fuel. They're dropped from cargo planes by parachute,
> because they are fairly large [like bigger than a 55 gallon drum.
> actually almost the size of a Volswagon Beetle] Once it reaches a
> certain low-altitiude, the detonator activates and sets off the
> explosives in the inner cylinder, which in turn ignites the fuel in the
> outer cylinder, creating a big explosion. The mixture of chemicals sucks
> the surrounding oxygen in from the atmosphere at the time of detonation
> and that oxy feeds the explosion, making it even larger. Fuel-Air Bombs
> can sometimes lay waste to as much as a mile diameter circle. It's the
> most powerful non-nuclear weapon in the U.S. military's arsenal.
>

Would it be able to make one that's smaller, say that a character could
launch from a ground-mounted tube?

> As far as cheap to build, everything is relative. Octol is what is used
> to fuel the bomb, IIRC, and that is TNT combined with other, very
> expensive, very, VERY, hard to get chemicals. Octol is only used in
> military weapons, because it's way too expensive to use commercially. I
> suppose characters could do it, if they don't mind spending 500K¥ [maybe
> more] and a years worth of legwork. Of course, once they start [assuming
> they can get. You have a better chance of getting a Firelance] trying to
> buy the materials needed to make Octol, someone WILL take notice.

How much per cubic cm would you charge for Octol and the other chemicals?

> Also,
> they're going to need a plane with a cargo area [FAB's can be attached
> to a regular hardpoint because they aren't aerodynamic. They look like a
> almost oval shaped, flat on one end cylinder] and a ramp that can be
> lowered, as well as a roller system on the floor to move the FAB from
> storage to the end of the cargoe ramp. They'll also need to drop it from
> at least a mile up or risk being hit with the shockwave. Even though the
> bombs are dropped by parachute and fall slowly, they make a big BOOM
> [caps. for emphasis]. If they drop it in a city, they'll knock out
> several city blocks, and the gummint, megacorps, cops, Feds, organized
> crime, and any other people in the area will be screaming for their
> heads for committing such a huge terrorist act and killing so many
> people, innocent or not.
>
> As far as area of effect, a big military FAB can wipe clean [and I mean
> almost nothing but dirt left] a square mile. A real small one might only
> take five city blocks. maybe more depending on the chemical waste in the
> atmosphere [lighting a cigarette in the area might not ignite it, but an
> explosion of this magnitude sucking in and feeding off all the oxygen in
> that area most likely would set off anything else flammable in the
> oxygen. IIRC, oxy is flammable in and of itself.] Don't even bother
> trying to set a Damage Code.

And then how bout a Damage Code? 22D?

> MGK
> --
> "There are no stupid questions, just stupid people."
Message no. 6
From: Machine-gun Kelly mgkelly@****.com
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:15:52 -0400
> Typically, this is done
> with frangible bomblets, compressed air, gravity, prevailing winds, or a
> combination of all the above.

That's it! Kerosene and explosive bomblets [they're about the size of a
softball]! I knew I forgot something!

See what happens when I start talking too much? I lose more of my mind.

MGK
--
"There are no stupid questions, just stupid people."
Message no. 7
From: Jason 'Ding' Dowd jdowd@****.edu
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:22:21 -0700
At 11:23 AM 4/14/99 -0400, you wrote:
>To make it simple, FABs have a core cylinder of explosives, surrounded
>by a combustile fuel. They're dropped from cargo planes by parachute,
>because they are fairly large [like bigger than a 55 gallon drum.
>actually almost the size of a Volswagon Beetle]

Actually, I'm not sure what bomb you're thinking of, but it's not an FAE.
Marc Renouf has the correct description in his message. An FAE can be
mounted on a conventional aircraft. They come in at least three different
sizes that I know of, and as long as the aircraft is capable of carrying a
2000lb bomb, it can carry an FAE.

>It's the
>most powerful non-nuclear weapon in the U.S. military's arsenal.

The most powerful non-nuclear weapon in the U.S. military's arsenal is an
18,000lb conventional dumb bomb. We used a couple in Vietnam, and we used
one in the Gulf war.

>[lighting a cigarette in the area might not ignite it, but an
>explosion of this magnitude sucking in and feeding off all the >oxygen in
that area most likely would set off anything else >flammable in the oxygen.
IIRC, oxy is flammable in and of itself.]

Oxygen is not flammable in and of itself. A fire requires a source of
oxygen to continue to burn, and although it does consume oxygen when
burning, oxygen in and of itself is not enough for a fire, it has to have
some sort of fuel as well.


Jason "Ding" Dowd
http://home.san.rr.com/jdowd
"There is no problem in this world that cannot be solved by the
judicious application of high explosives."
Message no. 8
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:53:30 EDT
In a message dated 4/14/99 8:49:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
gyro@********.co.za writes:

> How the heck do Fuel-Air bombs work exactly? Are they cheap to build?
> Any ideas on damage and area of effect?
>
> I presume it would depend greatly on the type of fuel used.
>
> Any tips would be appreciated...

Well, a lot of other folks have described the workings of an FAE bomb -- all
I have to add is, how about a two-plane (presumably DRONES) approach: CROP
DUST the target, and zap a Firelance laser through the resultant cloud of
fuel. The laser _should_ ignite the fuel, especially if it's, say, LOX
(Liquid Oxygen) enriched ... <EG>

FAE for cheap, at range, with minimal on-site presence. What more could a
terrorist ask for (that's sub-nuclear) ??

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 9
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:07:28 EDT
In a message dated 4/14/99 9:41:32 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
baishen@**********.com writes:

>
> > Are they cheap to build?
> > Any ideas on damage and area of effect?
>
> No idea.

Actually, now that I've thought about it...does a given volume of fuel have a
damage code somewhere? Treat it like explosives, and increase the area of
the blast by an increase in the volume of the fuel. It ain't quite perfect
(far from it, I know), but the idea is there.

-K
Message no. 10
From: David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:06:27 -0600 (MDT)
Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
/
/ Actually, now that I've thought about it...does a given volume of fuel have a
/ damage code somewhere? Treat it like explosives, and increase the area of
/ the blast by an increase in the volume of the fuel. It ain't quite perfect
/ (far from it, I know), but the idea is there.

Fuel doesn't doesn't explode unless it's thrown out into the air (like a
fuel air bomb does). In fact, it's really hard to ignite fuel in a gas
tank.

When a vehicle's fuel tank explodes what really happens is that an
outside force ruptures the tank and forcefully expells the fuel into
the air. The fuel mixes with the air and a spark or open flame ignites
the fuel "cloud", creating an explosion.

If a fuel tank is torn and the fuel spills on to the ground and
something ignites the fuel and the flame races back to and inside the
leaking tank you can get a small explosion when the fuel vapors in the
tank ignite. But it's nothing like you see in the movies.

If you shoot a gas tank with a bullet you can get an explosion if: the
gas tank isn't full and the bullet goes through the air part and, if
the bullet punches all the way through the gas tank. The bullet goes
in one side, through the open space, and through the other side,
drawing air with it. On it's way through it ignites the gas fumes in
the upper part of the tank which, being mixed with air being pulled
through by the bullet, explode. The explosion blows apart the gas tank
jetting fuel out, enough of which mists which when ignited results in a
second fuel/air explosion.

And FWIW, most of us own fuel air bombs :) When the carborator, or
fuel injection system, in your car mixes air with fuel and sends it to
the cylinder of your car's engine and ignites it, it's a fuel/air
explosion.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
The ShadowRN FAQ
http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/BuildHtmlFAQ.php3?title=ShadowRN&faqlistúqsrn
--
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http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 11
From: Covington, Bryan bryan.covington@****.com
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:11:16 -0400
First Union Capital Markets Corp.

<snip size & shape description>

Not true. As someone else pointed out they can come in a
standard bomb case and do not require a large drum.

> As far as cheap to build, everything is relative. Octol is what is used
> to fuel the bomb, IIRC, and that is TNT combined with other, very
>
Also not true. While some military devices may use octol as
you describe they can also use anything flammable and in some cases things
that are not flammable (similar to a grain elevator explosion). The priciest
one they quoted on Discovery was aluminum power mixed with oxidizer, several
thousand dollars per pound. The cheapest, gasoline, $0.96 per gallon down
the street.

> As far as area of effect, a big military FAB can wipe clean [and I mean
> almost nothing but dirt left] a square mile. A real small one might only
> take five city blocks. maybe more depending on the chemical waste in the
>
This is not true either. The smaller ones (military grade)
can be used against something as small as a singer building. I have seen the
footage of this on the (all praise) Discovery channel special about the
weapons of Desert Storm.

While this area is somewhat incorrect the statements about
the power of these things are pretty much on the money. The footage I saw
showed a reinforced concrete building laid down like a house of cards. There
is no damage level for this. This is also not to mention the sucking effect
that goes with it (these things really suck). The explosion sucks all the
air out of the area around it. I believe this is actually against Geneva
convention to use on troops as it will LITERALLY suck the air out of a
persons lungs.
Message no. 12
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:30:25 +0200
According to Bruce, at 14:31 on 14 Apr 99, the word on
the street was...

> How the heck do Fuel-Air bombs work exactly?

A fuel-air explosive disperses (usually liquid) fuel into a mist over the
target, and then ignites it. Gives one hell of an impressive blast :)

> Are they cheap to build?

IIRC the big problem is detonating the fuel cloud reliably. I'm not sure
if there's much difficulty in getting the cloud to form, but AFAIK quite a
lot of research has gone into them in the military before models appeared
that really worked properly.

> Any ideas on damage and area of effect?

Area of effect would depend on the volume of fuel carried by the bomb, as
well as the time between dispersal and detonation. I can't give any RL
figures because I can't find any references ATM, even though I believe I
have some books with stats somewhere... Must be this cold I'm having :(

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I will not take these things for granted.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: Machine-gun Kelly mgkelly@****.com
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:56:14 -0400
> >It's the
> >most powerful non-nuclear weapon in the U.S. military's arsenal.
>
> The most powerful non-nuclear weapon in the U.S. military's arsenal is an
> 18,000lb conventional dumb bomb. We used a couple in Vietnam, and we used
> one in the Gulf war.

Well, I guess that's what I get for listening to Reservist fighter
pilots....

MGK
--
"Obviously, someone pissed in the gene pool."
Message no. 14
From: Joshua Mumme Grimlakin@**********.com
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:14:48 -0500
Machine-gun Kelly wrote:

> > >It's the
> > >most powerful non-nuclear weapon in the U.S. military's arsenal.
> >
> > The most powerful non-nuclear weapon in the U.S. military's arsenal is an
> > 18,000lb conventional dumb bomb. We used a couple in Vietnam, and we used
> > one in the Gulf war.
>
> Well, I guess that's what I get for listening to Reservist fighter

> pilots....

Actually I think you are right as far as distructive power gos. the fule air
bomb is capeable of whipeing out cities. Whiel the dumb bomb is a contact
explosive more of it's exposive energy is absorbed by the ground.

>
>
> MGK

Grimlakin
Message no. 15
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:28:34 EDT
In a message dated 4/14/99 5:16:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Grimlakin@**********.com writes:

> Actually I think you are right as far as distructive power gos. the fule
air
> bomb is capeable of whipeing out cities. Whiel the dumb bomb is a contact
> explosive more of it's exposive energy is absorbed by the ground.

That depends ont eh measure of destructive power. If it's a sheer
measurement of actual kilojoules (or even megajoules?) of energy imparted,
then I _think_ the 18K pound bomb wins. If it's in the size and extent of
the area damaged/destroyed, then the whopping huge FAE's would win.

Sometimes, after all, what might kill a city would only _shake_ _up_ a
hardened, well built, subsurface bunker. Drop that 18,000 pound bomb on the
bunker and >BOOM< no more bunker, usually.

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 16
From: David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:33:25 -0600 (MDT)
Covington, Bryan wrote:
/
/ > As far as cheap to build, everything is relative. Octol is what is used
/ > to fuel the bomb, IIRC, and that is TNT combined with other, very
/ >
/ Also not true. While some military devices may use octol as
/ you describe they can also use anything flammable and in some cases things
/ that are not flammable (similar to a grain elevator explosion). The priciest
/ one they quoted on Discovery was aluminum power mixed with oxidizer, several
/ thousand dollars per pound. The cheapest, gasoline, $0.96 per gallon down
/ the street.

Don't forget powdered cream for coffee :)

(Okay, I admit it. When I was a kid I was a pyromaniac.)

Hmmm... I wonder if the smog level in a city ever got high enough if
you could get a particle air mixture that could result in a fuel/air
explosion...

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
The ShadowRN FAQ
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--
mailto:dbuehrer@******.carl.org
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Message no. 17
From: Oliver McDonald oliver@*********.com
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:32:05 -0700 (PDT)
On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:33:25 -0600 (MDT), David Buehrer wrote:

>Hmmm... I wonder if the smog level in a city ever got high enough if
>you could get a particle air mixture that could result in a fuel/air
>explosion...

Not likely, since most particles in smog are either partially, or completely oxidised
already.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://web2.spydernet.com/oliver/
-----------------------------------------------------------
Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.
Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.

"that is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may
die."
-H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu."
Message no. 18
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:38:44 EDT
In a message dated 4/14/99 5:09:29 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dbuehrer@******.carl.org writes:

> (Okay, I admit it. When I was a kid I was a pyromaniac.)
>
> Hmmm... I wonder if the smog level in a city ever got high enough if
> you could get a particle air mixture that could result in a fuel/air
> explosion...

You know...that kind of makes me wonder. If a Lake can burn...couldn't it
happen to the sky???

-K (who is having a suddenly twisted concept for a game...)
Message no. 19
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:04:10 +1000
K writes:
> > Hmmm... I wonder if the smog level in a city ever got high enough if
> > you could get a particle air mixture that could result in a fuel/air
> > explosion...
>
> You know...that kind of makes me wonder. If a Lake can
> burn...couldn't it
> happen to the sky???
>
> -K (who is having a suddenly twisted concept for a game...)

Possible, but not likely. Most air-borne pollutants are some sort of
byproduct of combustion (e.g., car exhaust, smoke from chemical plants,
etc). These won't really burn readily.

Furthermore, things like, say, air-borne natural gas (from a leak, say) burn
rapidly (and usually explosively), and then go out, due to lack of fuel. A
sustained fire is unlikely.

The difference here is that oil on the surface of a lake (or a pool of oil
on the ground) will only burn at the surface. That's why it lasts. Airborne
pollutants will burn all the way through, as it will be very dispersed. If a
fire can spread, it will spread rapidly and burn up all the fuel within
seconds. If the fire can't spread, it'll burn up all the available fuel
quickly, and go out.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 20
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:12:10 -0500
>Hmmm... I wonder if the smog level in a city ever got high enough if
>you could get a particle air mixture that could result in a fuel/air
>explosion...

Jesus Christ, you guys can be scary sometimes....

I'll have to keep this in mind, however, if I ever feel the need to commit
genocide on that scale in a game.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 21
From: Steve Collins einan@*********.net
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 23:20:29 -0400
On 4/14/99 4:56 pm, Machine-gun Kelly said:

>> >It's the
>> >most powerful non-nuclear weapon in the U.S. military's arsenal.
>>
>> The most powerful non-nuclear weapon in the U.S. military's arsenal is an
>> 18,000lb conventional dumb bomb. We used a couple in Vietnam, and we used
>> one in the Gulf war.
>
>Well, I guess that's what I get for listening to Reservist fighter
>pilots....
>
>MGK
>--

No you were correct, The 18,000lb may be the largest but it has an
explosive force of 9 Tons (maybe less I can never rember if these weights
include the casing or just the explosive). FAE bombs go up to several
Kilotons of explosive force. Several thousand is usually more than 9. Not
all FAE's are that big but that is where they top out. I'm not sure Adam
Getchell would know better but I think there is a point beyond which it
is harder to make the blast bigger no matter how much fuel and air there
is. The easiest dilevery mechanism is the Gas canister for a back yard
grill. Sneak 2 or 3 of them into a small room of the building you want to
destroy and open the valves all the way. Leave a small timed incendary
device in the room and be long gone before it goes off. This only works
for smaller buildings but many larger ones have convient supplies of
suitable materials laying around. Just look for the MSDS (material saftey
data sheet) book to see what they have around.

Steve
Message no. 22
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:17:37 +0200
According to Steve Collins, at 23:20 on 14 Apr 99, the word on
the street was...

> No you were correct, The 18,000lb may be the largest but it has an
> explosive force of 9 Tons (maybe less I can never rember if these weights
> include the casing or just the explosive).

Bomb weight is the _whole_ thing. As a rough guide, the explosive inside
has about a quarter to one-half the weight of the total bomb. (E.g. a Mk.
82, 500-lb. bomb weighs 241 kg but contains 87 kg of explosive; a Mk. 84,
2000-lb. bomb weighs 893 kg and contains 429 kg of explosive.) Think about
the damage this would cause in SR: taking rating 6 explosives, it's 56D
and 124D, respectively...

--
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I will not take these things for granted.
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Message no. 23
From: arclight arclight@**************.com
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:50:21 +0200
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-admin@*********.org
> [mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.org]On Behalf Of Covington, Bryan
> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 1999 9:11 PM
> To: 'shadowrn@*********.org'
> Subject: RE: Fuel - Air Bombs

> Also not true. While some military devices may use octol as
> you describe they can also use anything flammable and in some cases things
> that are not flammable (similar to a grain elevator explosion).
> The priciest
> one they quoted on Discovery was aluminum power mixed with
> oxidizer, several
> thousand dollars per pound.

Don't they use this for ICBMs? The Minuteman one?

arclight
Message no. 24
From: David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 07:46:50 -0600 (MDT)
Robert Watkins wrote:
/
/ K writes:
/ > > Hmmm... I wonder if the smog level in a city ever got high enough if
/ > > you could get a particle air mixture that could result in a fuel/air
/ > > explosion...
/ >
/ > You know...that kind of makes me wonder. If a Lake can
/ > burn...couldn't it
/ > happen to the sky???
/ >
/ > -K (who is having a suddenly twisted concept for a game...)
/
/ Possible, but not likely. Most air-borne pollutants are some sort of
/ byproduct of combustion (e.g., car exhaust, smoke from chemical plants,
/ etc). These won't really burn readily.

But, what if the smog level reached a point where the flamable particles
(though in the minority) reached a critical level? Granted, that would
take a *lot* of smog. But this is SR and in my mind's eye I see cities
like the one in Bladerunner, filled with smog.

... oh, never mind. I wouldn't happen unless you had freakishly dry
weather. I just remembered my meteorology class and water molecules
bond with "dust" particles to form cloud drops (which, if you get
enough form rain). Unless said smogy city were in a *very* dry desert
the water/particle bonding effect would prohibit a fuel air explosion.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
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Message no. 25
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 05:49:54 -0500
:Hmmm... I wonder if the smog level in a city ever got high enough if
:you could get a particle air mixture that could result in a fuel/air
:explosion...
:
:-David B.


Not much energy in smog, it being mostly exhaust fumes and water, I'd
think. Pretty poor fuel source, even if some large portion of it is unburnt
hydrocarbons.
Anyhow, the density has to be MUCH higher than normal smog- the PPM
would
have to be well above 10,000, I'd guess, and that's for just the
hydrocarbons, not all pollutants combined. This is a problem inside
enclosed spaces, though- you have to be careful about storing fuel (and
operating vehicles) inside large factories and aircraft hangers, for
example. (Actually, you have to be careful with gaseuos fuels anywhere, but
they can be tricky to notice in big spaces). I think a FAE bomb that did
not detonate would make you very, very sick if you breathed it...
Yes, I realize the question was facetious, but still, the Ohio river did
once catch fire...
Message no. 26
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:18:20 EDT
In a message dated 4/15/99 7:29:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gurth@******.nl
writes:

> Bomb weight is the _whole_ thing. As a rough guide, the explosive inside
> has about a quarter to one-half the weight of the total bomb. (E.g. a Mk.
> 82, 500-lb. bomb weighs 241 kg but contains 87 kg of explosive; a Mk. 84,
> 2000-lb. bomb weighs 893 kg and contains 429 kg of explosive.) Think about
> the damage this would cause in SR: taking rating 6 explosives, it's 56D
> and 124D, respectively...

But the explosives are only a part of it; the actual mass of the bomb,
hitting the ground and shattering (both itself AND whatever it hits) adds to
the force of the explosion, if less efficiently than the same amount of
explosives, perhaps.

Maybe up those to 80D and 150 to 175D, then? :-)

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 27
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:22:53 EDT
In a message dated 4/15/99 9:46:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
dbuehrer@******.carl.org writes:

> But, what if the smog level reached a point where the flamable particles
> (though in the minority) reached a critical level? Granted, that would
> take a *lot* of smog. But this is SR and in my mind's eye I see cities
> like the one in Bladerunner, filled with smog.
>
> ... oh, never mind. I wouldn't happen unless you had freakishly dry
> weather. I just remembered my meteorology class and water molecules
> bond with "dust" particles to form cloud drops (which, if you get
> enough form rain). Unless said smogy city were in a *very* dry desert
> the water/particle bonding effect would prohibit a fuel air explosion.
>
> -David B.

On top of which, long before then, people would be unable to breathe the air
... hmmm.

Tenochtitlan, anyone? They DO have to wear masks all the time ... a long dry
spell, an incautious runner with a grenade ... <EG>

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 28
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:19:42 EDT
In a message dated 4/15/99 8:47:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
arclight@**************.com writes:

> Don't they use this for ICBMs? The Minuteman one?
>
> arclight

AFAIK, all ICBM's are nuclear.

You may be thinking of packing Lithium Hydride around a nuclear bomb, thus
making it a HYDROGEN bomb, and upping it's power dramatically (in essence,
IIRC, the nuke is merely the DETONATOR or fuse!!).

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 29
From: Mockingbird mockingbird@*********.com
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:37:41 -0500
To take this thought one step farther, what about on a red alarm day? I
know in Shadowrun, Mexico City rutinely requires the use of an air
filtration mask (Aztlan sourcebook). Doesn't one of the other sourcebooks
mentions that this occurs from time to time in Seattle?
I know that not everyone has the sourcebooks, but just a thought (a toxic
shaman plot perhaps? ("I'll show them how bad this pollution really is, Boom
baby baby Boom!!")

Mockingbird
-----Original Message-----
From: Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.com>
To: Shadowrun List <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Thursday, April 15, 1999 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: Fuel - Air Bombs


>
>:Hmmm... I wonder if the smog level in a city ever got high enough if
>:you could get a particle air mixture that could result in a fuel/air
>:explosion...
>:
>:-David B.
>
>
> Not much energy in smog, it being mostly exhaust fumes and water, I'd
>think. Pretty poor fuel source, even if some large portion of it is
unburnt
>hydrocarbons.
> Anyhow, the density has to be MUCH higher than normal smog- the PPM
>would
>have to be well above 10,000, I'd guess, and that's for just the
>hydrocarbons, not all pollutants combined. This is a problem inside
>enclosed spaces, though- you have to be careful about storing fuel (and
>operating vehicles) inside large factories and aircraft hangers, for
>example. (Actually, you have to be careful with gaseuos fuels anywhere,
but
>they can be tricky to notice in big spaces). I think a FAE bomb that did
>not detonate would make you very, very sick if you breathed it...
> Yes, I realize the question was facetious, but still, the Ohio river
did
>once catch fire...
>
>
>
>
Message no. 30
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Fuel - Air Bombs
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:14:23 +1000
David Buehrer writes:
> / Possible, but not likely. Most air-borne pollutants are some sort of
> / byproduct of combustion (e.g., car exhaust, smoke from chemical plants,
> / etc). These won't really burn readily.
>
> But, what if the smog level reached a point where the flamable particles
> (though in the minority) reached a critical level? Granted, that would
> take a *lot* of smog. But this is SR and in my mind's eye I see cities
> like the one in Bladerunner, filled with smog.

Hmmm... You'd have to have the pollutants collecting a fair bit above the
ground, though. Having seen pictures of cities with heavy smog (I have the
good fortune of never having seen the phenomenon for myself), the smog, like
a heavy fog, goes all the way to the ground. If the flamable particles
started building up that much, people's cars would start burning them. Which
would prevent a large enough build up...

> ... oh, never mind. I wouldn't happen unless you had freakishly dry
> weather. I just remembered my meteorology class and water molecules
> bond with "dust" particles to form cloud drops (which, if you get
> enough form rain). Unless said smogy city were in a *very* dry desert
> the water/particle bonding effect would prohibit a fuel air explosion.

Wouldn't necessarily stop it. An oily liquid will burn, after all. But I
can't see the explosion in that case, anyway... just not enough of the
particles, spread too far apart...

OTH, we're likely to see cities reach that level of smog in our lifetimes,
anyway, all clean-air efforts to the contrary (Mexico City/Tenochitilan
leaps to mind). So we can just wait and see...

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com

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