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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (darren malin)
Subject: Full-auto Fireing rates in Shadowrun 3rd ed
Date: Mon Jul 2 17:20:01 2001
Most players as did I think that The Rate of Fire of
full-auto wep's is to low. How ever I have done some
research in to fire rates of model full auto-guns and
things are not as bad as we thought. As you may be
aware in the straight shadow runner 3rd ed rules a
turn is 3 seconds long witch is subdivided in to 1,2,3
or more initiative pass depending on your initiative
(Shadowrun III ed Page 100, 102). A full auto weapons
can fire a max of 10 rounds per complex action only
one of witch is allowed per initiative pass, so the
max full-auto fire rate is 10 rounds per initiative
pass. If you have only one initiative pass then this
is indeed a very low rate of fire BUT most Pc´s have 2
initiative pass and most street sam´s/gun nuts have 3
most of the time , this gives you a fire rate of 20
rounds per 3 second turn for the average Pc and 30
rounds per 3 second turn for the street sam/gun nut.
Now most of my group still said this was low so I
looked up a few guns and found the following , most
modern full-auto weps have a cyclic rate of fire of
between 350 rounds per minute and 1000 rounds per
minute not including things like mini guns etc. That
works out as follows :-
RPM = Rounds Per Minute
RPS = Rounds Per Second
RP3S = Rounds per 3 Seconds or Shadow Runner turn

350 RPM = 5.833 RPS = 17.5 RP3S or Shadow Runner turn
400 RPM = 6.66 RPS = 20 RP3S or Shadow Runner turn
500 RPM = 8.33 RPS = 25 RP3S or Shadow Runner turn
600 RPM = 10 RPS = 30 RP3S or Shadow Runner turn
1000 RPM = 16.66 RPS = 50 RP3S or Shadow Runner turn

AS you can see the normal runner wound get 20 rounds
per turn/3 sec with 2 passes and a sam/gun nut would
get 30 rounds per turn/3sec witch is not all that bad
at 600 RPM is not bad at all .

Now I think that most players (I know this is true of
my group and I must admit me) tend to think of the
initiative pass as being a “turn” as most of us are
used to RPG´s that have one action per turn , ad&d
being one that comes to mind , we have grown up with
this and it is hard to shake. So we tend to think
”only 10 rounds per turn that’s slow”.This is worng as
what we are looking at as a turn in only one
initiative pass a small part of a turn.

What is wrong is that the initiative of the Pc should
NOT decide how many rounds a weapon fires in 3 seconds
, that is decided by the cyclic rate of fire of the
weapon and its clip capacity witch ever is lower.
What we have done about it is we have decided that a
each initiative pass is 3 seconds (ish) and that a
full-auto wep can fire up to 30 rounds per initiative
pass or up to its clip capacity witch ever is lower
this give full-auto weps a rate of fire of 600 RPM ,
this make much more sense to us. Of couse if you hose
a 30 round clip in one round you are mostly going to
be hitting air.

Thought comments etc welcome
*stands against the wall puts on blind fold and smorks
last cig*

Regards
Black Cat
I would be a sharman but I am just the GM


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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Full-auto Fireing rates in Shadowrun 3rd ed
Date: Tue Jul 3 07:45:01 2001
[darren malin] writes:

> What is wrong is that the initiative of the Pc should
> NOT decide how many rounds a weapon fires in 3 seconds
> , that is decided by the cyclic rate of fire of the
> weapon and its clip capacity witch ever is lower.
> What we have done about it is we have decided that a
> each initiative pass is 3 seconds (ish) and that a
> full-auto wep can fire up to 30 rounds per initiative
> pass or up to its clip capacity witch ever is lower
> this give full-auto weps a rate of fire of 600 RPM ,
> this make much more sense to us. Of couse if you hose
> a 30 round clip in one round you are mostly going to
> be hitting air.
>
> Thought comments etc welcome

Er, wouldn't it be OK to just keep a SR _turn_ at 3 seconds, and have each
pass be an appropriate fraction of that? Otherwise, you end up with peculiar
situations: take Joe Slow, he normally only gets one action per turn (ie 1
pass) and thus goes once every 3 seconds (the new length of a pass).
However, if he mixes it up with Frank Fast, who rolls 41 and thus gets 5
passes, he only gets to go once every 15 seconds. This is because the turn
is now 5 times as long, but he still only gets a single go. This doesn't
really make all that much sense. Suddenly, because he's involved with a
speed freak, he goes five times as slow. He should still be able to act as
fast as normal.

Of course then you end up back at the same situation we started at :-).

Personally I've never really had a problem with the SR rates of fire. Under
SR rules, you'd be crazy to try firing 10 rounds per action - you'd never
hit. Let alone 30! A simple solution, in my view, is to allow more realistic
rates of fire for suppressive and searching fire, as these are the
circumstances where additional rounds in the air are helpful, and where
people might realistically empty their clips. Under normal controlled
autofire (where you're actually trying to nail your target with all the
rounds in the burst), firing more than 4 or so rounds isn't any worse than
firing 40 or so, as the last 36 aren't going to do anything except chew up
the scenery behind your target.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Joshua Mun)
Subject: Full-auto Fireing rates in Shadowrun 3rd ed
Date: Tue Jul 3 18:50:01 2001
Damion Milliken wrote:
>
> [darren malin] writes:
>
> > What is wrong is that the initiative of the Pc should
> > NOT decide how many rounds a weapon fires in 3 seconds
> > , that is decided by the cyclic rate of fire of the
> > weapon and its clip capacity witch ever is lower.
> > What we have done about it is we have decided that a
> > each initiative pass is 3 seconds (ish) and that a
> > full-auto wep can fire up to 30 rounds per initiative
> > pass or up to its clip capacity witch ever is lower
> > this give full-auto weps a rate of fire of 600 RPM ,
> > this make much more sense to us. Of couse if you hose
> > a 30 round clip in one round you are mostly going to
> > be hitting air.
> >
> > Thought comments etc welcome
>
> Personally I've never really had a problem with the SR rates of fire. Under
> SR rules, you'd be crazy to try firing 10 rounds per action - you'd never
> hit. Let alone 30! A simple solution, in my view, is to allow more realistic
> rates of fire for suppressive and searching fire, as these are the
> circumstances where additional rounds in the air are helpful, and where
> people might realistically empty their clips. Under normal controlled
> autofire (where you're actually trying to nail your target with all the
> rounds in the burst), firing more than 4 or so rounds isn't any worse than
> firing 40 or so, as the last 36 aren't going to do anything except chew up
> the scenery behind your target.
>

There is another fact that most people seem to be forgetting. If you
fire a FA weapon continuously (i.e.. hold down the trigger until it runs
out of ammo) you will over heat the the barrel of the weapon. The
faster the cyclic rate the faster the gun heats up, and eventually you
melt the barrel. To avoid this, anybody familiar with FA weapons will
only fire three to five round bursts. This allows some time to cool the
weapon and prevents the barrel from melting. This also reduces the
effective ROF for the weapon. Thus while the weapon might be capable of
firing faster, if you want to continue firing that weapon your effective
ROF will be substantially less.

By the way, just to establish my credentials, I know all this because I
am in the army and have been trained on these types of weapons.

--
--------------------------
There is no problem that can not be solved with a suitable application
of high explosives
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Achille Autran)
Subject: Full-auto Fireing rates in Shadowrun 3rd ed
Date: Wed Jul 4 07:00:00 2001
>Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 21:48:03 +1000 (EST)
>From: Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au>
>
>Er, wouldn't it be OK to just keep a SR _turn_ at 3 seconds, and have each
>pass be an appropriate fraction of that? Otherwise, you end up with peculiar
>situations: take Joe Slow, he normally only gets one action per turn (ie 1
>pass) and thus goes once every 3 seconds (the new length of a pass).
>However, if he mixes it up with Frank Fast, who rolls 41 and thus gets 5
>passes, he only gets to go once every 15 seconds. This is because the turn
>is now 5 times as long, but he still only gets a single go. This doesn't
>really make all that much sense. Suddenly, because he's involved with a
>speed freak, he goes five times as slow. He should still be able to act as
>fast as normal.

Well, that's relativity at work, you know, for things moving /fast/ time
flows slower, or rather the propertires of high impulse - high curvature
areas... That Frank Fast dude is just warping the space-time manifold and
cornering his opponents in curvy parts of the universe where time is bloody
slow, compared to his own time frame. Shadowrun makes sense, it's just a
matter of proper referential and adequate transforms. A shame they didn't
made this clear in the BBB!

Molloy

P.S.: that's basically a yes-I-agree-me-too unuseful post.
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Keith Duthie)
Subject: Full-auto Fireing rates in Shadowrun 3rd ed
Date: Wed Jul 4 08:00:00 2001
On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Damion Milliken wrote:

> Under SR rules, you'd be crazy to try firing 10 rounds per action -
> you'd never hit.

Ares alpha - base recoil comp of 2. Gas vent IV, recoil comp is now 6. Add
a shock pad, recoil comp is now 7. Personalised grip, recoil comp is now
8. Secondary grip, heavy barrel, smartlink. Even Joe Mook with no assault
rifle skill and a quickness of 3 has a reasonable chance of hitting...
--
Understanding is a three edged sword. Do you *want* to get the point?
http://www.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Standard disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this message are unlikely to
be mine, let alone anybody elses...
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Zixx)
Subject: Full-auto Fireing rates in Shadowrun 3rd ed
Date: Wed Jul 4 08:35:01 2001
Joshua Mun wrote:

> There is another fact that most people seem to be forgetting. If
> you fire a FA weapon continuously (i.e.. hold down the trigger
> until it runs out of ammo) you will over heat the the barrel of the
> weapon. The faster the cyclic rate the faster the gun heats up,
> and eventually you melt the barrel. To avoid this, anybody
> familiar with FA weapons will only fire three to five round bursts.
> This allows some time to cool the weapon and prevents the barrel
> from melting. This also reduces the effective ROF for the weapon.
> Thus while the weapon might be capable of firing faster, if you
> want to continue firing that weapon your effective ROF will be
> substantially less.
>
> By the way, just to establish my credentials, I know all this
> because I am in the army and have been trained on these types of
> weapons.

Well, here we have the problem: *You* are in the army. You are
*trained* to use these weapons effectively. Most runners are more of
the DIY-types, i.e. they just pull the trigger and see how the
situation disso^H^H^H^H^Hevolves. they might very well overheat a
weapon (although I don't think it's such a problem with SMGs or ARs,
as the clip-capacity slows down your effective ROF enough). It's One
Of Those Problems(tm), that usually people who can't shoot go for FA
(more bullets, better chances to hit), while SR does it the other way
round....

Zixx
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Full-auto Fireing rates in Shadowrun 3rd ed
Date: Wed Jul 4 10:00:00 2001
Joshua Mun writes:

> <Snip problem of overheating barrels due to high ROF>
>
> By the way, just to establish my credentials, I know all this because I
> am in the army and have been trained on these types of weapons.

I was under the impression that this sort of thing was only a problem with
belt fed weapons. I always thought that with clip fed weapons, with normally
around 30 odd shots, the problem of overheating the barrel was minimal (you
have to change clips every 30 rounds). Am I wrong with this idea?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Full-auto Fireing rates in Shadowrun 3rd ed
Date: Wed Jul 4 10:15:00 2001
Zixx writes:

> Well, here we have the problem: *You* are in the army. You are
> *trained* to use these weapons effectively. Most runners are more of
> the DIY-types, i.e. they just pull the trigger and see how the
> situation disso^H^H^H^H^Hevolves.

I dunno about that. Anyone with a skill of 3 or more in SR is considered
trained. How many shadowrunner gun bunnies do you see with gun skills of
less than 5? Not too many, I'm guessing. I'd argue that runners with gun
skills are knowledgable (from whatever past experience, training, or
knowledge) about weapons, and thus know these sorts of things.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Zixx)
Subject: Full-auto Fireing rates in Shadowrun 3rd ed
Date: Wed Jul 4 10:25:01 2001
Damion Milliken wrote:
> Zixx writes:
> > Well, here we have the problem: *You* are in the army. You are
> > *trained* to use these weapons effectively. Most runners are more
> > of the DIY-types, i.e. they just pull the trigger and see how the
> > situation disso^H^H^H^H^Hevolves.
>
> I dunno about that. Anyone with a skill of 3 or more in SR is
> considered trained. How many shadowrunner gun bunnies do you see
> with gun skills of less than 5? Not too many, I'm guessing. I'd
> argue that runners with gun skills are knowledgable (from whatever
> past experience, training, or knowledge) about weapons, and thus
> know these sorts of things.

Strange isn't it? Who runs around training go-gangers on matters like
FA-weapons? Anyway, not accounting for Sams, how about mages,
deckers, rigger, etc. Many of them are of the "Yeah, I got a
gun"-variety, right? My point is that just because they teach you not
to do it in the army, doesn't mean you don't need good rules for it...

Zixx
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Full-auto Fireing rates in Shadowrun 3rd ed
Date: Wed Jul 4 12:35:01 2001
In article <200107041406.AAA02661@******.its.uow.edu.au>, Damion
Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au> writes
>I was under the impression that this sort of thing was only a problem with
>belt fed weapons. I always thought that with clip fed weapons, with normally
>around 30 odd shots, the problem of overheating the barrel was minimal (you
>have to change clips every 30 rounds). Am I wrong with this idea?

Yes, you are. The Bren gun in all its versions had a quick-change
barrel, because more than three or four magazines in a minute would
overheat the weapon.

The BAR suffered, and the RPK and RPK-74 still do, from having fixed
barrels that limit their sustained rate of fire: the British Army LSW
has a similar limitation, but is actually (according to a Bisley high-
scorer) more accurate fired in rapid aimed singles than in bursts,
reducing the heat load on the barrel.


More than about seventy to a hundred rounds a minute will cause serious
heat problems in just about any weapon: and considering that with most
assault rifles you can empty a thirty-round magazine in three seconds,
reload in six or seven, and fire again, then it becomes quite easy
(especially with a LMG) to burn out a barrel.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Joshua Mun)
Subject: Full-auto Fireing rates in Shadowrun 3rd ed
Date: Wed Jul 4 18:55:01 2001
"Paul J. Adam" wrote:
>
> In article <200107041406.AAA02661@******.its.uow.edu.au>, Damion
> Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au> writes
> >I was under the impression that this sort of thing was only a problem with
> >belt fed weapons. I always thought that with clip fed weapons, with normally
> >around 30 odd shots, the problem of overheating the barrel was minimal (you
> >have to change clips every 30 rounds). Am I wrong with this idea?
>
> Yes, you are. The Bren gun in all its versions had a quick-change
> barrel, because more than three or four magazines in a minute would
> overheat the weapon.
>
> The BAR suffered, and the RPK and RPK-74 still do, from having fixed
> barrels that limit their sustained rate of fire: the British Army LSW
> has a similar limitation, but is actually (according to a Bisley high-
> scorer) more accurate fired in rapid aimed singles than in bursts,
> reducing the heat load on the barrel.
>
> More than about seventy to a hundred rounds a minute will cause serious
> heat problems in just about any weapon: and considering that with most
> assault rifles you can empty a thirty-round magazine in three seconds,
> reload in six or seven, and fire again, then it becomes quite easy
> (especially with a LMG) to burn out a barrel.
>
> --
> Paul J. Adam

The problem with overheating is much more of a problem with belt fed
weapons but even given this the biggest reason we are taught the 3-5
round burst is accuracy. Even with the M16A1 (which is the only version
of the M16 to have FA) we are taught to fire 3-5 round bursts. Firing
more that that only waists ammo. Even the M16 which has almost no
recoil will stray if you fire to many rounds in a row. FA is really
only more effective than burst if you have a large number of targets
bunched together, otherwise you will waste large amounts of ammo. This
is why the latter versions of the M16 have not had FA capability.
--
--------------------------
There is no problem that can not be solved with a suitable application
of high explosives

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