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Message no. 1
From: One Ronin ronin@*******.com
Subject: Full Autofire......was:RE: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 08:05:29 PST
It seems that the thread about APDS, Smartlinks, and armor
penetration has drifted into a subject that I've given lots of thought
to: autofire. IMO, FASA has a pretty warped idea of the purpose and
usefulness of firing a weapon in full auto mode. I've spent five years
as an infantry (MECH) soldier, and I've fired many fully automatic
weapons......the M-249 SAW and M-60 being the two I've used most often.
Basically, auto fire serves one of two purposes: A)as suppressive fire
and B)to put many rounds into one area to increase your chances of
hitting your target with at least one round. Sure, with recoil, it's
almost impossible to fire 10 rounds from an LMG and have them all hit in
the exact same spot. But, that's not the point. On the M-60 range, I
was firing 15 and 20 round bursts at 1000M targets. According to SR, my
T# would be in the upper 20s. Was I able to hit the target?
Yes....everytime. Why? Because I was putting a lot of rounds into a
small area..increasing my chances of hitting the target with at least
one round. IMO, that's the reason for using auto fire.
One of the reasons that SR differs in that regard is the often found
desire to deliver multiple rounds to the target. Auto fire is seen as a
medium to do this. However, I don't like the idea that either all the
rounds hit, or none of them hit. Real life doesn't work that way. Even
with smartlinks and gyro-mounts, some rounds are still going to
miss...especially if you are using a Vindicator. 8-)
At any rate, I've put together some relatively simple auto fire rules
that work well im my games. The concept is that the more rounds you
shoot, the better you chance of hitting your target....but with only a
small percentage of rounds actually hitting. This does increase the
lethality of the game, but also adds quite a bit of utility to the FA
setting on most SMGs and ARs. I have the rules set up on an EXCEL 97
spreadsheet. E-mail me privately if you want a copy. I hope this
clears some things up for all you non-military types. 8-)



"I hunt, therfore I am."

-Ronin
ICQ #: 11373195


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Message no. 2
From: Brett Borger bxb121@***.edu
Subject: Full Autofire......was:RE: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:24:37 -0500 (EST)
<snip>
> to: autofire. IMO, FASA has a pretty warped idea of the purpose and
> usefulness of firing a weapon in full auto mode. I've spent five years
<snip>
Warped? I'm not so sure of that...

> Basically, auto fire serves one of two purposes: A)as suppressive fire
> and B)to put many rounds into one area to increase your chances of
> hitting your target with at least one round. Sure, with recoil, it's
> almost impossible to fire 10 rounds from an LMG and have them all hit in
> the exact same spot. But, that's not the point. On the M-60 range, I
<snip>
I agree completely...

> One of the reasons that SR differs in that regard is the often found
> desire to deliver multiple rounds to the target. Auto fire is seen as a
> medium to do this. However, I don't like the idea that either all the
<snip>
Ah, here we find the disagreement. The PLAYERS have the desire to hit
with all the rounds. SR makes this (realisitically) difficult.
However, if one uses (as I do, and I know lots of other groups do) the
supressive fire rules in FoF to handle shooting as well, the problem
disappears (That is, I point in your general direction, brace myself,
and use a lead hose) The supressive fire rules do exactly what you
say: Greatly increase your chances of hitting, but dropping your
hit/miss ratio.

> At any rate, I've put together some relatively simple auto fire rules
> that work well im my games. The concept is that the more rounds you
> shoot, the better you chance of hitting your target....but with only a
> small percentage of rounds actually hitting. This does increase the

...And here you have your own set of rules to do the same thing.
SSDR. (Same S..tuff, different rule :) ) Defintely the basic rules
are not sufficient (although the new dodge rules contain SOME
acknowledgment of this), but suppressive fire is the right idea. I'm
hoping that CC will update this rule, since I think a lot of players
use it in this manner, but the original author didn't seem to take it
into account.

-=SwiftOne=-
Proud new owner of Harlequin
Message no. 3
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: Full Autofire......was:RE: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 15:10:02 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:05 AM 3/1/99 -0800, One Ronin wrote:
>At any rate, I've put together some relatively simple auto fire rules

>that work well im my games. The concept is that the more rounds you
>shoot, the better you chance of hitting your target....but with only
a
>small percentage of rounds actually hitting. This does increase the
>lethality of the game, but also adds quite a bit of utility to the FA

>setting on most SMGs and ARs. I have the rules set up on an EXCEL 97

>spreadsheet. E-mail me privately if you want a copy. I hope this
>clears some things up for all you non-military types. 8-)

And I don't suppose these rules exist in a paper and dice form, for
those of us who don't go to the trouble to haul our computers to the
gaming table each session? Or are they simply do complex to be used
without electronic assistance?

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 4
From: Neil Clark neil.clark@**********.com
Subject: Full Autofire......was:RE: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:23:55 -0500
sure, throw 'em at me.

thanks,

--Neil

-----Original Message-----
From: One Ronin <ronin@*******.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Monday, March 01, 1999 11:18 AM
Subject: Full Autofire......was:RE: APDS and Smartlinks


>I have the rules set up on an EXCEL 97
>spreadsheet. E-mail me privately if you want a copy. I hope this
>clears some things up for all you non-military types. 8-)
Message no. 5
From: Neil Clark neil.clark@**********.com
Subject: Full Autofire......was:RE: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:46:12 -0500
oops, sent the private public..., mega-aplogies to all. my bloop. --Neil

>sure, throw 'em at me.
>
>thanks,
>
>--Neil
>>
>>I have the rules set up on an EXCEL 97
>>spreadsheet. E-mail me privately if you want a copy. I hope this
>>clears some things up for all you non-military types. 8-)
Message no. 6
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Full Autofire......was:RE: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:45:30 +0100
According to One Ronin, at 8:05 on 1 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> It seems that the thread about APDS, Smartlinks, and armor
> penetration has drifted into a subject that I've given lots of thought
> to: autofire. IMO, FASA has a pretty warped idea of the purpose and
> usefulness of firing a weapon in full auto mode.
[snip]

That's why I use a different set of autofire rules, in which you roll an
open test to see how many of the fired rounds actually hit. It works like
this: you calculate the TN for a single shot, and roll the dice in an open
test. The number of rounds that hits is equal to the difference between
the test and the TN, plus any recoil compensation present. (For weapons
with a recoil of +2 per round, divide the difference between TN and roll
by 2, and then add the recoil compensation.) The number of successes
applied to these bullets equals one-half the number of successes rolled
against the TN for a single shot.

For example, let's fire 10 rounds from an AK-97 at a target at medium (TN
5) range in poor light (+2 TN) with a gas vent 2 on the weapon. In
SRII/SR3, this would be a TN of 15 and if you fail to make this, all
rounds miss. With the house rules my group uses, you roll the dice -- say
you roll 11. You hit with 11 - 7 = 4, +2 for the recoil compensation,
makes 6 rounds. The remaining four go high, wide, short, or wherever
except into the target.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"The only mechanoids ever issued with genetalia were those serving
aboard Italian starships" --Kryten, Red Dwarf VIII
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 7
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Full Autofire......was:RE: APDS and Smartlinks
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:17:00 -0500 (EST)
On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Gurth wrote:

> That's why I use a different set of autofire rules...

[SNIP]

I use a similar system. The only way it differs is in how the
number of successes is calculated. If you're interested in seeing some
examples, check out the following URL:

www-personal.umich.edu/~jormung/shadowrun/rules.html

Zip down to the section on autofire (there's a bookmark for your
convenience) and peruse to your hearts' content. Note that these rules
were originally for SR2. While the autofire rule didn't change to SR3,
some of the others on that page may. I'm working updating them for SR3
(though many of them actually made it into SR3 - unfortunately autofire
wasn't among them).

Marc

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