Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Fredrik Lindblom <fredrik.lindblom@******.KALMAR.SE>
Subject:	Re: Full-conversion cyborgs <rant warning>
Date:	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:33:35 +0100

Message no. 1 At 07:47 1997-12-15 +0000, you wrote:

<snip long post>

>Okay, if you've read this far, I'm impresed.

Yes I did... :) Now let's see if you have the attention span required to
read this one :) In that case I'll be impressed too...

>What do you think?

All in all, I liked the article. Lots of well-thought-out details. Some
comments though:

<rant on>

I _am_ a fan of full-conversion cyborgs, but I do not believe they have a
place in SR. This is mainly because unlike other more mundane cyber-RPGs,
SR has a "mystic" side to it, people _do_ scientifically (magic is a
science in SR) have a soul (aura) and it is linked to the physical body,
thus the concept of essence. The way I interpret essence, it measures how
well your body "contains" your soul. Start replacing too much of it with
alien components, and the soul starts "leaking" out... The soul can,
through a feat of will, control cyberware, but cyberware cannot control
your soul. It is one-way communication only.

There's an example of this (think it was in Cybertechnology) where somebody
mentions how he believed the cyberarm to be in a certain position, but then
looked at it, and it was pointed another way. Freaked the person out, which
it damn well should! What this means was that the _aura_ was where the
character _thought_ it was, but the cyberarm was not, because he did not
pay enough attention to it, and did not exert his willpower over it. Unless
you do this, it will live its own life, because it does not conform to the
aura (soul) the way the (original) meat body does. The meat body drags the
aura with it wherever it goes. This is not a problem with non-limb pieces
of cyberware, because usually there are meat parts around it which "bring
the aura along" properly.

Bioware is IMO always more or less "cultured", because there is no essence
loss. Some genes from the eventual subject of the surgery have to be in the
vat, or it will end up acting just like cyberware, i.e. using upp essence.

So, basically, if a person replaced his/her entire body with cyberware, the
soul would not be able to remain inside. Parts of it would start "falling"
outside until the entire aura was dislodged from the body. The sheer feat
of will needed to concentrate on keeping the soul inside the artificial
body would be too much for a human mind. Even if this _was_ possible, it
could not be kept up while the person was sleeping.

Ghost-imprint tech is IMNSHO _waaay_ beyond what is currently possible in
SR. We're talking AI capability, here, on a very much portable scale.
(human brain-sized) In my book, the end result would be a sentient robot
without aura (soul). Memories and even skills may be copied electronically,
but the mysterious, arcane thing that is the soul cannot be transferred via
technology.

Now, if you make an enchanted orichalcium construct inside the metal body
to contain the soul... Hmmm... maybe that is what we need to beat up the
horrors when they come back in a few thousand years... :)

<rant off>

Apart from that... Aren't they a little heavy? I mean, sure, something like
1.5x real weight for beta grade cyborgs, why more? Since you _do_ have the
GITS cyborgs as inspiration, just look at Motoko's athletic capabilities...
Lightweight materials, composite alloys, high-impact ceramics are
everywhere in SR, after all.

[And BTW I really hope you have _read_ GITS, not just seen the movie,
otherwise the graphic novel is very, very, VERY well-spent money. Beats the
film big-time IMO. Masamune Shirow simply is THE GOD of manga. :-)
(Appleseed (no, not the film) kicks butt too!)]

Back on topic... And, yeah, would a corp not prioritize long-term
self-sufficiency of the cyborgs, and thus attempt to let them get by on
normal foodstuffs only? Human food is easy to come by in a crisis
situation, while specialized chemicals and even electricity are not. Then
again, if they will be deployed like the unisols in "Universal soldier", I
guess it will not be a problem. And then there's always the matter of
regular maintenance and material stress, ofcourse.

As for the game mechanics you wrote down, I admit I did not pay much
attention to them (since I do not plan to use this in SR. Maybe other
games, though), but IMO the GITS cyborgs are the extreme of the extreme.
They sould have physical stats based on model and size and be totally
independent of the original character's body. Physical stats are probably
in the 8-16 range. Perfectly balanced from scratch. Totally off (meta)human
scale, deadlier than a small army and definitely NPC-only. :-P

Just my 0.02nY

/FL

From:	losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Full-conversion cyborgs <rant warning>
Date:	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:19:35 -0500

Message no. 2 At 04:33 PM 12/16/97 +0100, you wrote:

>I _am_ a fan of full-conversion cyborgs, but I do not believe they have a
>place in SR. This is mainly because unlike other more mundane cyber-RPGs,
>SR has a "mystic" side to it, people _do_ scientifically (magic is a
>science in SR) have a soul (aura) and it is linked to the physical body,
>thus the concept of essence.

I think that's one possible interpretation, but I disagree. I think
full-conversion cyborgs are not that far away in SR, given say beta-grade
'ware you can already afford to replace your torso, skull, and all four
limbs.
That's pretty much a full conversion right there. They are getting better
and better at creating improvements that the body can deal with better than
the old (i.e. cost less essense), it's a trend since before SR2 came out.

And I don't particularly like the idea of my actual, metaphysical soul
being something that can be seen, touched (by magicians, that is), etc.
That cheapens the idea of a soul a lot, to me. Sure there is an astral
form, a more magically attuned self that can separate itself and move about
in the astral, but that is still tied to the body, and sustained by it (the
body dies if the astral form is gone too long, and the astral form is toast
if the body dies, a short time later).

>The way I interpret essence, it measures how
>well your body "contains" your soul. Start replacing too much of it with
>alien components, and the soul starts "leaking" out... The soul can,
>through a feat of will, control cyberware, but cyberware cannot control
>your soul. It is one-way communication only.

I see it more as the body's nervous system and integrity being compromised
by too many elements creating unusual stresses on the system (the big
granddaddy version of bioware's body overstress).

>There's an example of this (think it was in Cybertechnology) where somebody
>mentions how he believed the cyberarm to be in a certain position, but then
>looked at it, and it was pointed another way. Freaked the person out, which
>it damn well should! What this means was that the _aura_ was where the
>character _thought_ it was, but the cyberarm was not, because he did not
>pay enough attention to it, and did not exert his willpower over it. Unless
>you do this, it will live its own life, because it does not conform to the
>aura (soul) the way the (original) meat body does. The meat body drags the
>aura with it wherever it goes. This is not a problem with non-limb pieces
>of cyberware, because usually there are meat parts around it which "bring
>the aura along" properly.

I take this more as instances in amputees of 'feeling' the old limb even
though it is no longer there, taken by science to be the nervous system
trying to account for impulses it is no longer receiving. I don't see this
as evidence of a 'soul' in the limbs of the body, though of course you can
take it that way.

>Bioware is IMO always more or less "cultured", because there is no essence
>loss. Some genes from the eventual subject of the surgery have to be in the
>vat, or it will end up acting just like cyberware, i.e. using upp essence.

That directly contradicts ShadowTech, which says that some bioware is
cultured, but most is not. Most of it is 'type O' vat-grown cells designed
to be implanted in anyone. There is no essence loss because it either does
not directly impact on the nervous system, or the body can more easily
accomodate signals and inclusions which are at least *organic* in nature,
rather than a digital interface which at some level always stresses the
nervous system.

>So, basically, if a person replaced his/her entire body with cyberware, the
>soul would not be able to remain inside. Parts of it would start "falling"
>outside until the entire aura was dislodged from the body. The sheer feat
>of will needed to concentrate on keeping the soul inside the artificial
>body would be too much for a human mind. Even if this _was_ possible, it
>could not be kept up while the person was sleeping.

Actually, a person with a great degree of cyber-replacement is still human,
still has an aura, and in fact the cyber becomes a part of their aura, a
part of them (cf. the arguments that cyber eyes count as non-technological
for mages casting spells, because they are paid for with essence and
considered an integral part of the character once implanted).

>[And BTW I really hope you have _read_ GITS, not just seen the movie,
>otherwise the graphic novel is very, very, VERY well-spent money. Beats the
>film big-time IMO. Masamune Shirow simply is THE GOD of manga. :-)
>(Appleseed (no, not the film) kicks butt too!)]

Looking to buy the trade when I can afford it. I was buying Appleseed,
when I could find it, back when Book One came out, loved it. Still
wondering when Book Five will be out, and if I'll be able to *find* copies
when it finally does.

>Back on topic... And, yeah, would a corp not prioritize long-term
>self-sufficiency of the cyborgs, and thus attempt to let them get by on
>normal foodstuffs only? Human food is easy to come by in a crisis
>situation, while specialized chemicals and even electricity are not. Then
>again, if they will be deployed like the unisols in "Universal soldier", I
>guess it will not be a problem. And then there's always the matter of
>regular maintenance and material stress, ofcourse.

For most things you'd use a full-on conversion for, you want to 1) keep the
individual dependent on you for parts, maintenance, and under the eyes of
some competent therapists to observe their behavior. Keep them on a short
leash, lest they cause trouble by either going rogue or going insane.

losthalo

From:	Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject:	Re: Full-conversion cyborgs <rant warning>
Date:	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:26:54 +0000

Message no. 3 Fredrik Lindblom wrote:
> <snip long post>
>
> >Okay, if you've read this far, I'm impresed.
>
> Yes I did... :) Now let's see if you have the attention span required to
> read this one :) In that case I'll be impressed too...
I did.

> <rant on>
*SNIP Soul in SR not fit with Full.conversion concept*

> So, basically, if a person replaced his/her entire body with cyberware, the
> soul would not be able to remain inside. Parts of it would start "falling"
> outside until the entire aura was dislodged from the body. The sheer feat
> of will needed to concentrate on keeping the soul inside the artificial
> body would be too much for a human mind. Even if this _was_ possible, it
> could not be kept up while the person was sleeping.

In SR, you *have* full conversions introduced in Cybertech. I was
trying to make a more detailed outline on how they worked, not
introduce a new concept. The argument wether they *should* be in SR
is another one completely...

> Ghost-imprint tech is IMNSHO _waaay_ beyond what is currently possible in
> SR. We're talking AI capability, here, on a very much portable scale.
> (human brain-sized)

Well... perhaps, but you have small chips which store and run
personalities, skills etc. (Dreamchipper). Also, in most cyberpunk
settings this is possible. Story - wise, I do not see a problem in
saying this is posible if the GM wishes it to be.

> In my book, the end result would be a sentient robot
> without aura (soul). Memories and even skills may be copied electronically,
> but the mysterious, arcane thing that is the soul cannot be transferred via
> technology.

Yes, it is, isn't it? :)
That's exactly what I hoped someone would notice - the ghost cyborgs
aren't human in any way. They just seem that way. But the question -
and the question in GITS - is, if they mimick a human well enough,
and think it is a human, is it a human?
(Also a theme of Blade Runner and numerous other cyberpunk
novels/movies. Which is a good reason to include them, IMO.).

> Now, if you make an enchanted orichalcium construct inside the metal body
> to contain the soul... Hmmm... maybe that is what we need to beat up the
> horrors when they come back in a few thousand years... :)

Personally I prefer not to mix .. metal and magic.. like that. But
what you describe is possibly part of what they do with cybermancy.

> Apart from that... Aren't they a little heavy? I mean, sure, something like
> 1.5x real weight for beta grade cyborgs, why more? Since you _do_ have the
> GITS cyborgs as inspiration, just look at Motoko's athletic capabilities...
> Lightweight materials, composite alloys, high-impact ceramics are
> everywhere in SR, after all.

Ghost cyborg first...
Well, the guys that walked over the weight detectors in S9 HQ weighed
600 kilos, IIRC. (This time, IIRC might well be wrong, it's a while
since I saw it.). That was, partially, what I based it on. Leafing
through the book it seems a bit heavy, but the Major do have a
tendency to dent stuff she lands on, cannot swim without air cushions
etc.

The robocop version is all steel and heavy compounds. I think any
weight might be appropriate.. as for the alpha cyborg, that should
probably be lighter. Anyway, weighing half a ton is kinda cool too.
:)

(Probably smartest to determine it on a case to case basis rather
than on a set value.).

> [And BTW I really hope you have _read_ GITS, not just seen the movie,
> otherwise the graphic novel is very, very, VERY well-spent money. Beats the
> film big-time IMO. Masamune Shirow simply is THE GOD of manga. :-)
> (Appleseed (no, not the film) kicks butt too!)]
Sure did, sure is. :)

> Back on topic... And, yeah, would a corp not prioritize long-term
> self-sufficiency of the cyborgs, and thus attempt to let them get by on
> normal foodstuffs only? Human food is easy to come by in a crisis
> situation, while specialized chemicals and even electricity are not. Then
> again, if they will be deployed like the unisols in "Universal soldier", I
> guess it will not be a problem. And then there's always the matter of
> regular maintenance and material stress, ofcourse.

Well, the plain version is the only one with strict requirements, and
it's .. the low - tech option not really suited for full conversions
anyway. Both alpha and beta models can get by on food only.
(Although at reduced efficiency in the long run.).

> As for the game mechanics you wrote down, I admit I did not pay much
> attention to them (since I do not plan to use this in SR. Maybe other
> games, though), but IMO the GITS cyborgs are the extreme of the extreme.

I wrote them up as fairly dangerous, but giving room for design
variations. I remind you that in GITS there was both agents and sex
doll cyborgs (or androids, as might be the case) which implies they
are not necessarily that extreme.

> They sould have physical stats based on model and size and be totally
> independent of the original character's body. Physical stats are probably
> in the 8-16 range. Perfectly balanced from scratch. Totally off (meta)human
> scale, deadlier than a small army and definitely NPC-only. :-P

I reiterate that SR allready has full conversions, but is very low
on details about them and their 'life', such as it is. I try to add
some detail, and in that, I also try to keep vaguely within the
framework or scale of the current rules. I gave the FCC's some perks
(reduced enhancement cost for the plain version, MBW for the beta,
etc.) in line with the fact the medical fees alone runs into
double-digit millions. There are other ways of doing this, too, and
as I also said, I hope SR adresses this issue in an upcoming
sourcebook. I, incidentally, feel that cybermancy is, partially, a
poor man's cyborg - using magic to overcome the shortcomings instead
of improving the technology. But that's just me.. :)

As for totally independent of owner's body.. I agree, and I don't. If
someone has a large, powerful body it is easier to make room for
mechanical muscle in it. But a starting strength of 3 is ludicrous,
though, IMHO, and a cost of 600000 to increase strength by 1 is
preposterous, also IMHO. It might be an idea to price it so that a
prime runner might afford an increase after running for a few years.
As it is now the price could have been ten times as high without
changing anything. Compared to muscle replacement.......... well.
--
Rune Fostervoll

"But the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we no not of."

From:	Fredrik Lindblom <fredrik.lindblom@******.KALMAR.SE>
Subject:	Re: Full-conversion cyborgs <rant warning>
Date:	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:31:23 +0100

Message no. 4 At 20:19 1997-12-16 -0500, losthalo wrote:

>And I don't particularly like the idea of my actual, metaphysical soul
>being something that can be seen, touched (by magicians, that is), etc.
>That cheapens the idea of a soul a lot, to me.

Hmm... Actually, I hadn't thought of it that way. You definitely got a
point there. I'll skip the "soul" part and just go with "aura",
then...

>I see it more as the body's nervous system and integrity being compromised
>by too many elements creating unusual stresses on the system (the big
>granddaddy version of bioware's body overstress).

So, in your opinion it is more of a physical thing that limits the use of
cyberware? In that case, the devil's advocate says, why does cyberware have
so much impact on magicians? After all, if the magician is able to use
magic thanks to her unique genetic structure, is there not a link between
the nervous system and the "magic" in people? (Damn! this is difficult to
explain in writing... :( And, yeah, I'm fond of the idea that there is a
little "magic" in everybody. Just some (the magicians, adepts) have all the
luck... And no, with "magic" I do not mean the Magic attribute. Just that
people are special, unique, they have their place in the metaphysical
everything... (No, I'm not high, bwana :)

>I take this more as instances in amputees of 'feeling' the old limb even
>though it is no longer there, taken by science to be the nervous system
>trying to account for impulses it is no longer receiving.

I mean exactly that, only in my mind the aura and nervous system are
linked, through a persons unique genetics, and what the amputee feels are
signals from the aura, not the nervous system. (Am I making any sense here? :)

Something like, you know, those aura-photographs that some (i think)
russian guy did? Where a cut-off piece of a leaf shows up as well? Can't
remember his name, tho... :(

>Actually, a person with a great degree of cyber-replacement is still human,
>still has an aura, and in fact the cyber becomes a part of their aura, a
>part of them (cf. the arguments that cyber eyes count as non-technological
>for mages casting spells, because they are paid for with essence and
>considered an integral part of the character once implanted).

Yeah, well... Had this (the part about cyber becoming part of the aura)
nagging in the back of my head while I wrote this rant yesterday. :) Sort
of wondering if somebody would use this argument against me. Got no
argument against that, except that I don't quite like technology becoming
part of your aura... I'd rather see the aura and tech in constant conflict
(thus essence loss). But all that is IMHO.

Yes, a heavily cybered person is still human, but that person still has
some of his god-given meat left in him to keep the aura in place. I wrote
"replaced his/her entire body", perhaps I should have put more emphasis on
"entire"...

>>[And BTW I really hope you have _read_ GITS, not just seen the movie,
>>...

>Looking to buy the trade when I can afford it. I was buying Appleseed,
>when I could find it, back when Book One came out, loved it. Still
>wondering when Book Five will be out, and if I'll be able to *find* copies
>when it finally does.

I hear that Shirow is working on GITS 2... Might even be out in Japan right
now, as a matter of fact. Not sure, there. Will take a while for it to
reach the US, then another while to reach Europe :( Seems to me we'll have
to wait for Appleseed 5 a bit longer...

>>Back on topic... And, yeah, would a corp not prioritize long-term
>>self-sufficiency of the cyborgs...

>For most things you'd use a full-on conversion for, you want to 1) keep the
>individual dependent on you for parts, maintenance, and under the eyes of
>some competent therapists to observe their behavior. Keep them on a short
>leash, lest they cause trouble by either going rogue or going insane.

You're probably right. After all we're not talking about cyborgs designed
for _war_. They're probably used more like the "Universal
Soldier"-bio-soldiers. A superhuman SWAT-team. Still, the beta tech cyborgs
could be used for other, more "socially demanding", ops.

/FL

From:	Fredrik Lindblom <fredrik.lindblom@******.KALMAR.SE>
Subject:	Re: Full-conversion cyborgs <rant warning>
Date:	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:33:54 +0100

Message no. 5 At 07:26 1997-12-17 +0000, you wrote:

>> So, basically, if a person replaced his/her entire body with cyberware, the
>> soul would not be able to remain inside. Parts of it would start
"falling"
>> outside until the entire aura was dislodged from the body. The sheer feat
>> of will needed to concentrate on keeping the soul inside the artificial
>> body would be too much for a human mind. Even if this _was_ possible, it
>> could not be kept up while the person was sleeping.
>
>In SR, you *have* full conversions introduced in Cybertech. I was
>trying to make a more detailed outline on how they worked, not
>introduce a new concept. The argument wether they *should* be in SR
>is another one completely...

Yep. I did change the "subject" line, did I not? :) As for full conversions
in Cybertech, the way I figure them they've still got their own brain and
internal organs left? The Cybertorso does not replace the internal systems,
does it?

>> Ghost-imprint tech is IMNSHO _waaay_ beyond what is currently possible in
>> SR. We're talking AI capability, here, on a very much portable scale.
>> (human brain-sized)
>
>Well... perhaps, but you have small chips which store and run
>personalities, skills etc. (Dreamchipper). Also, in most cyberpunk
>settings this is possible. Story - wise, I do not see a problem in
>saying this is posible if the GM wishes it to be.

Okay, I see what you mean, but in my opinion that would require a level of
understanding of things like the subconscious that just is not possible in
a world where magic exists. If it was possible to move a person's
consciousness via technology... that very fact would kill the "chaos
factor", the unknown, the unpredictable, call it what you will. The brain
would be software that could be edited when needed. All of it would be
accessible. As it is now, most of our brain is not used. Why? What is in
there? Questions, chaos, unpredictable, mystery, well, you get it...

>> In my book, the end result would be a sentient robot
>> without aura (soul). Memories and even skills may be copied electronically,
>> but the mysterious, arcane thing that is the soul cannot be transferred via
>> technology.
>
>Yes, it is, isn't it? :)
>That's exactly what I hoped someone would notice - the ghost cyborgs
>aren't human in any way. They just seem that way. But the question -
>and the question in GITS - is, if they mimick a human well enough,
>and think it is a human, is it a human?

In SR?: IMHO, No. Humans may try to play god and create sentient machines,
but they will be only that. Biological or technological thinking machines.
In SR there is magic, and it is real, and the power to create an immortal
soul should be the realm of other, more powerful beings. So yes, I do at
this point define
"human" as something more than a sentient construct. I think that everybody
has a little "magic" in them. (see my answer to losthalo on this subject)

Then again, magicians can let spirits inhabit inanimate objects via magic,
so there is a different path right there... And, what if the laws of the
universe dictates that any intelligence, born or built, must have a soul?
And a spirit inhabits the artificial construct (without its builder's
knowledge) the moment it is brought "online"? Gee, this is getting deeep...
:) But interesting...

>> Now, if you make an enchanted orichalcium construct inside the metal body
>> to contain the soul... Hmmm... maybe that is what we need to beat up the
>> horrors when they come back in a few thousand years... :)
>
>Personally I prefer not to mix .. metal and magic.. like that. But
>what you describe is possibly part of what they do with cybermancy.

Yep. I'll just drop it right now... Don't like the magic/metal mix either,
just writing things down that come to mind...

>> Apart from that... Aren't they a little heavy? I mean, sure, something like
>> 1.5x real weight for beta grade cyborgs, why more? Since you _do_ have the
>> GITS cyborgs as inspiration, just look at Motoko's athletic capabilities...
>> Lightweight materials, composite alloys, high-impact ceramics are
>> everywhere in SR, after all.
>
>Ghost cyborg first...
>Well, the guys that walked over the weight detectors in S9 HQ weighed
>600 kilos, IIRC. (This time, IIRC might well be wrong, it's a while
>since I saw it.). That was, partially, what I based it on. Leafing
>through the book it seems a bit heavy, but the Major do have a
>tendency to dent stuff she lands on, cannot swim without air cushions
>etc.

I'll have to look myself. And, yeah, she does dent things, but she still
runs fast like hell and jumps pretty high. A x2 run modifier seems on the
low side, IMHO. And if they weigh 600 kilos, the strength enhancements
needed to move around at all would cost more than a spankin' new space
shuttle... (if you believe cybertechnology, that is) Maybe figure that if
they weigh six times human, they should have strength at six times human?
(which is plain ridicilous game-balance-wise, ofcourse...) Isn't max lift
something like 20xstrength in SR? That would require strenght 30 just to
lift themselves off the ground or holding on to something with hands
only... :-/

Is, btw, the attribute scale in SR linear or logarithmic (sp?)? Never saw
it mentioned anywhere that it should be anything but linear...

>The robocop version is all steel and heavy compounds. I think any
>weight might be appropriate.. as for the alpha cyborg, that should
>probably be lighter. Anyway, weighing half a ton is kinda cool too.
>:)

The weight for the robocop 'borg is probably just fine :) yes.

>> [And BTW I really hope you have _read_ GITS, not just seen the movie,
>> otherwise the graphic novel is very, very, VERY well-spent money. Beats the
>> film big-time IMO. Masamune Shirow simply is THE GOD of manga. :-)
>> (Appleseed (no, not the film) kicks butt too!)]
>Sure did, sure is. :)

So, now we're just waiting for GITS 2, then...

>> Back on topic... And, yeah, would a corp not prioritize long-term
>> self-sufficiency of the cyborgs...

>Well, the plain version is the only one with strict requirements, and
>it's .. the low - tech option not really suited for full conversions
>anyway. Both alpha and beta models can get by on food only.
>(Although at reduced efficiency in the long run.).

Okay. Just checking. I was thinking more of what specs the military would
set up than what a corp would think of, anyway. My fault.

>> As for the game mechanics you wrote down, I admit I did not pay much
>> attention to them (since I do not plan to use this in SR. Maybe other
>> games, though), but IMO the GITS cyborgs are the extreme of the extreme.
>
>I wrote them up as fairly dangerous, but giving room for design
>variations. I remind you that in GITS there was both agents and sex
>doll cyborgs (or androids, as might be the case) which implies they
>are not necessarily that extreme.

No. I'm thinking of Motoko, not the "sex dolls costing more than a Ferrari" :)
The common model which Motoko is designed to imitate probably has very
human stats (3-5 or so).

>> They sould have physical stats based on model and size and be totally
>> independent of the original character's body. Physical stats are probably
>> in the 8-16 range. Perfectly balanced from scratch. Totally off (meta)human
>> scale, deadlier than a small army and definitely NPC-only. :-P
>
>I reiterate that SR allready has full conversions, but is very low
>on details about them and their 'life', such as it is. I try to add
>some detail, and in that, I also try to keep vaguely within the
>framework or scale of the current rules.

And as I said, I did like your article. :) Filed it away among "the good
stuff" coming off this list. Just adding my 0.02nY, right?

>I, incidentally, feel that cybermancy is, partially, a
>poor man's cyborg - using magic to overcome the shortcomings instead
>of improving the technology. But that's just me.. :)

Considering the current limitations, the corps must think of it as a step
towards a more cost-efficient, and better way of doing it. Still, I do
believe there will be no full-conversion "super-cyborgs" without using
magic, but hey, I already said that. :)

>As for totally independent of owner's body.. I agree, and I don't. If
>someone has a large, powerful body it is easier to make room for
>mechanical muscle in it.

In the GITS scenario, you could take the brain+spine out and put it in any
body you wanted. So theoretically, if you made a ghost-imprint of a dwarf's
brain, you could easily put it in an artificial troll body. Would freak the
poor dwarf out at first, but he'd get used to it.

>But a starting strength of 3 is ludicrous,
>though, IMHO, and a cost of 600000 to increase strength by 1 is
>preposterous, also IMHO. It might be an idea to price it so that a
>prime runner might afford an increase after running for a few years.
>As it is now the price could have been ten times as high without
>changing anything. Compared to muscle replacement.......... well.

How true. I'm working on some new cyberlimb rules for SR. Still in infant
stage, tho. I'll post them when they're finished enough for feedback from
y'all.

/FL

From:	losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Full-conversion cyborgs <rant warning>
Date:	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:50:29 -0500

Message no. 6 At 10:31 AM 12/17/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Hmm... Actually, I hadn't thought of it that way. You definitely got a
>point there. I'll skip the "soul" part and just go with "aura",
then...

Yeah, that's just fine. :)

>So, in your opinion it is more of a physical thing that limits the use of
>cyberware? In that case, the devil's advocate says, why does cyberware have
>so much impact on magicians? After all, if the magician is able to use
>magic thanks to her unique genetic structure, is there not a link between
>the nervous system and the "magic" in people? (Damn! this is difficult to
>explain in writing... :( And, yeah, I'm fond of the idea that there is a
>little "magic" in everybody. Just some (the magicians, adepts) have all the
>luck... And no, with "magic" I do not mean the Magic attribute. Just that
>people are special, unique, they have their place in the metaphysical
>everything... (No, I'm not high, bwana :)

Magic isn't "in" people, metahuman or plain-Jane human. It's instead
something that the body's genes can access. The body manipulates the
astral and creates an effect. This can be a very subtle manipulation
(metahuman characteristics, as opposed to conjuring and spellcasting, say),
but it's how all magical abilities work, and for magicians, the ability to
do this is a very fragile thing. Too much of certain stimulants, such as
those in stim patches, damages it, as does highly technological medical
treatment. The 'metagene' is delicate and easily damaged by invasive
procedures, too; any surgery causing a Deadly Wound also risks Magic loss
(i.e. loss of the ability to work magic).

>I mean exactly that, only in my mind the aura and nervous system are
>linked, through a persons unique genetics, and what the amputee feels are
>signals from the aura, not the nervous system. (Am I making any sense
here? :)

Yes, I got it before, I just disagree. I don't see auras and astral
activity as central to humans, since humans existed just fine in very
low-mana periods of time, and still experienced things like the
'ghost-sensations' from amputated limbs, at a time when the astral should
have been very inaccessible.

>Something like, you know, those aura-photographs that some (i think)
>russian guy did? Where a cut-off piece of a leaf shows up as well? Can't
>remember his name, tho... :(

Kirlian photography.

>Yeah, well... Had this (the part about cyber becoming part of the aura)
>nagging in the back of my head while I wrote this rant yesterday. :) Sort
>of wondering if somebody would use this argument against me. Got no
>argument against that, except that I don't quite like technology becoming
>part of your aura... I'd rather see the aura and tech in constant conflict
>(thus essence loss). But all that is IMHO.

I didn't write it, FASA did, and a long time ago. Maybe they regretted it
later, I dunno, but I've always seen it this way, and like things being
consistent.

>Yes, a heavily cybered person is still human, but that person still has
>some of his god-given meat left in him to keep the aura in place. I wrote
>"replaced his/her entire body", perhaps I should have put more emphasis on
>"entire"...

Even if you have a brain alone, you've got a brain. Anything less than
that (bulk-copying the mind to another, manufactured body, for instance) is
arguably not that person any longer, since you could do it and still have
the original.

>I hear that Shirow is working on GITS 2... Might even be out in Japan right
>now, as a matter of fact. Not sure, there. Will take a while for it to
>reach the US, then another while to reach Europe :( Seems to me we'll have
>to wait for Appleseed 5 a bit longer...

Damn! ohhh, damn! ohhhhh...

>You're probably right. After all we're not talking about cyborgs designed
>for _war_. They're probably used more like the "Universal
>Soldier"-bio-soldiers. A superhuman SWAT-team. Still, the beta tech cyborgs
>could be used for other, more "socially demanding", ops.

Think of the Cyber-Psycho squad of the police forces in CP 2020. I'm sure
the precinct has a full list of ALL their cyber, and possible a locator
implanted to keep tabs on them if they go haywire, maybe even a biomonitor
to keep track of his life signs, etc. so if he get's cacked outside of work
they can get the body back before some criminals make off with all his
'wire. :) Paranoid? It's paranoid if they prolly would do it. :)

losthalo

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