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Message no. 1
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Full of Life
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:33:14 -0400
OK, here's another thing I would like to address in SR3. Please keep in mind
this is all speculation right now. That said:

I would like to remove the "immovable object" problem from astral space. As
it stands now, there are 3 types of astral things: astral forms (which can
interact), auras (reflections of material things, which show information, but
a non-tangible) and living beings, which can block and affect astral
movement, but cannot in turn be affected from the astral.

This last category creates numerous awkward problems and logical paradoxes,
as anyone who has dealt with FAT Bacteria can attest. If living things cannot
be moved or affected from astral space, what happens if you throw a net of
living bio-fiber over an astral form? How do astral forms displace airborne
bacteria? etc.

What I propose is removing the "middle category" and the special status of
living beings. Something is either astrally active (and present in astral
space) or it is not, and therefore is nothing more than an image in astral
space. You can walk through a mundane person just like you could a wall or a
car. If it's mundane (living or not) it cannot be touched or affected from
astral space, but neither does it touch or affect astral forms.

But wait! you cry. What about astral security? Actually, it doesn't change
much. You just need to make a small adjustment. Instead of covering the walls
of a corp facility with normal ivy to create an astral barrier, say there is
an Awakened strain of ivy that is dual natured, forming a natural Astral
Barrier. The difference is, now you can fight the barrier in astral combat to
break through it like you would any other. Same with FAT Bacteria. Make it
astrally active. Not only does Strain-III then make more sense, but FAT Bac
doesn't become an inescapable death-trap. You can fight it in astral combat
or even ground a spell through it, if you like.

What about natural earth? Well, astral characters would be able to pass
through the Earth, but they wouldn't necessarily be able to see where they
were going, so I wouldn't recommend going too deep underground or you could
get lost. Perhaps alchemy can also create materials which are dual natured
(existing in both astral and physical space) to create stone walls which are
also astral barriers.

This way, astral forms have virtually no effect on the physical world. They
don't displace air, airborne bacteria, or anything else for that matter. In
the same vein, physical things have virtually no effect on the astral unless
they are dual natured (and therefore also present in astral space). The
seperation between the two planes is fairly clear cut.

Thoughts?

Steve
Message no. 2
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:12:51 +0000
On 29 Jul 97 at 9:33, Steve Kenson wrote:

> What I propose is removing the "middle category" and the special status of
> living beings. Something is either astrally active (and present in astral
> space) or it is not, and therefore is nothing more than an image in astral
> space. You can walk through a mundane person just like you could a wall or a
> car. If it's mundane (living or not) it cannot be touched or affected from
> astral space, but neither does it touch or affect astral forms.

I like the idea, but wouldn't this make it easy to detect a masked
initiate? Even though he looks mundane, you could simply try to touch
him, and if you can, you know that he is not mundane. Of course, you
can't have characters going around trying to touch everything.

> This way, astral forms have virtually no effect on the physical world. They
> don't displace air, airborne bacteria, or anything else for that matter. In
> the same vein, physical things have virtually no effect on the astral unless
> they are dual natured (and therefore also present in astral space). The
> seperation between the two planes is fairly clear cut.

This is more inline with modern day metaphysical theories on OBE's,
and parapsychology regarding ghosts and spirits, and it makes sense
from a game stand point.

I like it.

--
===DREKHEAD==================================drekhead@***.net===
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
================================================================
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot
stomping on a human face...forever. -George Orwell
----------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 3
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:23:22 +0100
|What about natural earth? Well, astral characters would be able to pass
|through the Earth, but they wouldn't necessarily be able to see where they
|were going, so I wouldn't recommend going too deep underground or you could
|get lost. Perhaps alchemy can also create materials which are dual natured
|(existing in both astral and physical space) to create stone walls which are
|also astral barriers.

In other words, elemental Earth.
I think the concepts of Elemental Earth, Air, Fire and Water should be
introduced. That way, you still have to be careful if you travel through the
earth, because you could run into a nugget of Elemental earth, or worse, a
pocket of elemental Fire.....

Apart from that, I think it makes a lot more sense.....

(Don't forget, Orichalcum is astrally dual natured, or should be, even when
not enchanted.... After all, it is made up of the 5 elemental elements....)

This also brings up Wood.... If you fly through a wood, is there a chance of
running into a splinter of elemental Wood?



--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:16:01 -0600
Steve Kenson wrote:
|
| What I propose is removing the "middle category" and the special status of
| living beings. Something is either astrally active (and present in astral
| space) or it is not, and therefore is nothing more than an image in astral
| space. You can walk through a mundane person just like you could a wall or a
| car. If it's mundane (living or not) it cannot be touched or affected from
| astral space, but neither does it touch or affect astral forms.

YES!!

I mean, I'm fairly proud that I've come to grips with how FAB works in
relation to the rules as written. But this would make things so much
easier. Heck, I'm gonna institute it as a house rule right now.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 5
From: Nathan Ray <Gabrie6967@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:59:42 -0400
In a message dated 7/29/97 3:33:21 PM, you wrote:

>This also brings up Wood.... If you fly through a wood, is there a chance of
>running into a splinter of elemental Wood?

Ouch- then you'd need astral tweezers and if its some place uncomfortable
another mage to pull it out (embaressing)
Message no. 6
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life -Reply
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:00:47 -0500
Spike wrote:
>In other words, elemental Earth.
>I think the concepts of Elemental Earth, Air,
>Fire and Water should be introduced. That
>way, you still have to be careful if you travel
>through the earth, because you could run into
>a nugget of Elemental earth, or worse, a
>pocket of elemental Fire.....

These make me uneasy.

However, I'd say the mantle should qualify as
elemental fire...

I'd take issue with the "orichalcum is dual
natured" thing, though. It's made up of
_radicals_, not elements (oh, wait a minute, in
earthdawn it IS made from pure elements).
Anyway, I don't like the idea of an orichalcum
pebble being a valid grounding target...

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 7
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:24:50 -0800
At 09:33 7/29/97 -0400, Steve Kenson wrote:
>I would like to remove the "immovable object" problem from astral space. As
>it stands now, there are 3 types of astral things: astral forms (which can
>interact), auras (reflections of material things, which show information, but
>a non-tangible) and living beings, which can block and affect astral
>movement, but cannot in turn be affected from the astral.
...
>What I propose is removing the "middle category" and the special status of
>living beings. Something is either astrally active (and present in astral
>space) or it is not, and therefore is nothing more than an image in astral
>space. You can walk through a mundane person just like you could a wall or a
>car.

>But wait! you cry. What about astral security? Actually, it doesn't change
>much. You just need to make a small adjustment. Instead of covering the walls
>of a corp facility with normal ivy to create an astral barrier, say there is
>an Awakened strain of ivy that is dual natured, forming a natural Astral
>Barrier. The difference is, now you can fight the barrier in astral combat to
>break through it like you would any other. Same with FAT Bacteria. Make it
>astrally active. Not only does Strain-III then make more sense, but FAT Bac
>doesn't become an inescapable death-trap. You can fight it in astral combat
>or even ground a spell through it, if you like.

That makes FAB really impractical: suddenly, the mage that was entrapped by
something he couldn't deal with can now cast a trivial spell to destroy it
and leave. Physical security guards wandering through clouds of FAB are
suddenly vulnerable to area effect spells cast from the astral. Part of what
makes ivy-lichen combination walls so good is the fact that you can't affect
them from the astral. Make them dual-natured, and suddenly a mage can fly
up to a wall, blast it with a defoliant spell, and go right on in to support
the troops.

The existing rules work really well as long as you don't worry about FAB.
I'd suggest adding a clarification to astral forms by making them relatively
resilient with respect to impact on living things: if an astral mage walks
across the street and gets hit by a car, they'll probably bounce a lot but be
unharmed. Similarly, if they're in a crowd and suddenly people converge on
them, they'll squirt out like a watermelon seed. A bat filled with living
moss is good for sending an astral mage flying across the room, but it's not
going to hurt them.

For FAB, I'd suggest two variants: one that's useful for making walls out of
(FAB-I) and simply ignores astral entities and is not dual-natured, and
another one
(FAB-UV) that is repelled by astral entities. This means that if you squirt
a whole bunch of FAB-UV into an area and turn on the light, they'll outline
astral forms. Said astral forms can escape at a walking pace (which is how
fast the bacteria can move), but are now vulnerable to being targetted with
a "net" gun. The "net" is actually a big sticky sheet of FAB-I. When
the
astral mage-- who can be targetted by the FAB-UV-- is hit by the sheet of
FAB-I, they're trapped between the FAB-UV and the FAB-I with no place to go.
The FAB-I then sticks the mage against a living wall, and you have a mage
trapped.

>What about natural earth? Well, astral characters would be able to pass
>through the Earth, but they wouldn't necessarily be able to see where they
>were going, so I wouldn't recommend going too deep underground or you could
>get lost. Perhaps alchemy can also create materials which are dual natured
>(existing in both astral and physical space) to create stone walls which are
>also astral barriers.

This means that alchemy can *also* create marbles that can be chucked around
that mages can ground out area effect spells through. Very dangerous idea,
IMO.

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%
Message no. 8
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:17:29 EDT
So, basically, you're either astrally active or you're not, and being
alive no longer makes a difference as to astral impassability. I
personally liked having the astrally unmovable objects, like trees,
people, plants, etc and think it added some flavor to the game. Here's
how I see it (as written currently):

Astrally active (dual natured - manifest spirits, active foci,
shapeshifters, dragons, ghouls, etc and astrally perceiving magicians -
or single astral nature - astrally projecting magicians, non-manifest
spirits)
Astrally dormant (single, living physical nature - plants, animals,
natural objects in their natural, unprocessed state)
Astrally intangible (inanimate, man-made/processed objects - buildings,
roads, machines, etc)

As for moving single-natured physical objects with a single-natured
astral being: NO. FAB UV (if it is supposed to do what I think it is
supposed to do) would have to be dual. I'd also suggest a sort of
critical mass for such things. Generally, if you can't see it with the
naked eye, it doesn't have a living aura (which is why viruses and the
like don't impede astral travel).


A single-natured astral object can be affected by a single-natured,
astrally dormant physical object, but cannot be harmed by said object or
being. This would include the guy trapped by the FAB net, hit by an
orichalcum bumper, beat by a FAB bat, etc, etc. If surrounded on all
sides by astrally dormant objects and pressured by said objects, the
astral being would be either squeezed out like 'a watermelon seed' as
another RN denizen suggested or trapped (if surrounded on all sides). If
trapped, the astral being will be kind of squished sideways (I'm not
entirely sure that the astral plane consists of only three (four if you
include a temporal dimension) dimensions). He/she/it won't be able to
move until the area is cleared again, but he won't be occupying exactly
the same space as the object(s) trapping him, either.

Feel free to poke holes in my logic, such as it is...


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 9
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:16:23 -0400
<I'm going to reply to this thread in general rather than specific posts>

Generally speaking, the main reason I like removing the special status of
living things on the astral is it's simple and clear-cut. Something is either
present in astral space as a solid (and affectable) object or it is not. The
current system creates too many special-case rules and too much metaphysical
hair-splitting, IMHO.

As for the suggestion of adding the True Elements (ala Earthdawn) to
Shadowrun, probably not. I'd tend to say the mana gradient isn't high enough
to sustain such manifestations at this time. It is also my opinion that SR
orichalcum isn't quite the same as ED orichalcum. The ED stuff is a composite
of the True Elements while the SR stuff is a magical alloy of Gold, Silver,
Copper and Mercury (symbolic of the four elements). Orichalcum is "magical"
but it is not automatically astrally active. As I mentioned, I could see
Enchanting rituals to create astrally active materials for use in building
astral defenses.

On astral security: Having astrally active security is also more consistent,
IMHO. If you have dual-natured ivy protecting your building, the GM can treat
it just like a Ward: assign it a Rating and away you go. Unlike the dormant,
immovable ivy of SR2, this barrier can be killed in astral combat, but it
will fight back like any other barrier.

On grounding: As for being able to ground through enchanted marbles or
similar drek, you can do that now, if you really want to, but keep the
following things in mind:

1) Enchanted items generally have to be in contact with their user to be
astrally active.

2) Enchanting takes time and karma

3) Under the revised Spell Targeting system I propose you need two qualities
to target a spell: line of sight and astral symmetry. So your chummer tosses
your enchanted marble into a room full of mundanes and toss a powerball at
it. You're astral projecting. The marble is astrally active and you can see
it, so it's a valid target. The powerball slams into it. You can also see
(assense) the people in the room, but they are NOT valid targets, so you
cannot target them. Net effect: a marble flys into the room, hits the floor
and goes "PIFT!" turning into dust and everybody wonders what the point of it
was.

Ah, but what about a damaging manipulation spell you say? Since DMs ground
out at the location of the caster's physical body and are then projected
towards the target, they can't be cast while astral projecting. You have to
be in your physical body to channel the effects of the spell. Still no
effect.

So, in short, mundanes are effectively immune to grounding under this system,
which makes ground far LESS effective than it is now. About the worst you
could do is cast something like Ignite on a flammable focus and set it
aflame, hoping it would affect the mundane. If the focus is something like a
coat or a hat, you might get somewhere. But do you really want to take
Serious to Deadly Physical Drain for it? Not a bargain most magicians are
going to go for, IMHO.

Steve
Message no. 10
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:17:00 -0400
Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG> wrote:
>The existing rules work really well as long as you don't worry about FAB.

But I do worry about FAB, and so, I suspect, do many people, given the
discussions I've seen on this list and elsewhere.

>That [making FAB astrally active] makes FAB really impractical: suddenly,
the mage
>that was entrapped by something he couldn't deal with can now cast a trivial
spell to >destroy it and leave.

That's my whole problem with FAB: the character can't do thing one about it.
As both a GM and a player I dislike situations that are: "OK, this happens,
but there's absolutely nothing you can do about it, so don't even try." An
astral form trapped on all sides by FAB is doom and can't do ANYTHING about
it. It's like a perfect death-trap. As a player I would find that incredible
unfair and frustrating.

I'm not saying FAB should be totally worthless, only that there should be a
chance, no matter how small for the trapped character to DO something about
it. Under the new system, FAB would be rated just like a Ward (which is
essentially what it is, an artificial, biological astral wall). So if you
want to make the FAB in a corp facility tough, give it a Rating of 10 or so
and it'll kick ass on the astral. Make it Rating 15 and almost nobody will be
able to get through it. But now the trapped character has the OPTION of
fighting the FAB in astral combat to get out. It might be a very tough fight,
even a near-suicidal one, but I would prefer to have the option rather than
being told I had none.

>Physical security guards wandering through clouds of FAB are
>suddenly vulnerable to area effect spells cast from the astral.

Under the Spell Targeting system I propose (see previous post), an astral
form could ground a spell through the FAB cloud to kill it, but the mundane
guards are completely safe because they are not valid targets and cannot be
affected by any spells cast from the astral. Theoretically, the spellcaster
might be able to transform the FAB into something dangerous or toxic, but for
the drain that would be involved (up in the Serious-Deadly range) why take
the risk?

Steve
Message no. 11
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:49:10 -0600
Steve Kenson wrote:
|
| On grounding: As for being able to ground through enchanted marbles or
| similar drek, you can do that now, if you really want to, but keep the
| following things in mind:

[snip]

If you use perception and cover modifiers for spellcasting, don't
forget about the size of the target. You're modifier to hit a marble
is what, +6? That's really going to put a crimp in the effectiveness
of grounding that spell. Ditto for attempts to ground out through
spell locks and most foci.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 12
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:21:34 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-30 11:18:03 EDT, TalonMail@***.COM (Steve Kenson)
writes:

>
> On astral security: Having astrally active security is also more
consistent,
> IMHO. If you have dual-natured ivy protecting your building, the GM can
> treat
> it just like a Ward: assign it a Rating and away you go. Unlike the
dormant,
> immovable ivy of SR2, this barrier can be killed in astral combat, but it
> will fight back like any other barrier.
>
I had to enter into this one. You can't engage the "ivy" in Astral Combat,
as the living signature isn't "active" on the astral level. Yeah, this is
part of that Metaphysical Hairsplitting that was mentioned in the part I
snipped (sorry), but there is a BIG difference between active astral presence
and passive astral presence. If you start doing the "dual nature" options
for living beings, then Astral Combat becomes INCREDIBLY dangerous.
-Keith
Message no. 13
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:28:33 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-30 11:18:03 EDT, TalonMail@***.COM (Steve Kenson)
writes:

>
> 1) Enchanted items generally have to be in contact with their user to be
> astrally active.

Not necessarily. They have to be "turned on", if their are foci-like, than
they can be carried off. As long as the magician maintains astral perception
upon the link, it is going. This is one of the loopholes on astral
maintenance.

> 2) Enchanting takes time and karma

Yeah true, but if you get someone who has Enchanting as a Totem bonus, then a
Quest of Power (Enchantment) becomes optional.

> 3) Under the revised Spell Targeting system I propose you need two
qualities
> to target a spell: line of sight and astral symmetry. So your chummer
tosses
> your enchanted marble into a room full of mundanes and toss a powerball at
> it. You're astral projecting. The marble is astrally active and you can
see
> it, so it's a valid target. The powerball slams into it. You can also see
> (assense) the people in the room, but they are NOT valid targets, so you
> cannot target them. Net effect: a marble flys into the room, hits the
floor
> and goes "PIFT!" turning into dust and everybody wonders what the point of

> it
> was.

Sorry Steve, at this point I have to wonder "Why" myself. I agree with
everyone that magic is powerful, but it is the "little quirks" like this one
that make things unpredictable and help keep the paranoia stage going as
well.

> Ah, but what about a damaging manipulation spell you say? Since DMs ground
> out at the location of the caster's physical body and are then projected
> towards the target, they can't be cast while astral projecting. You have
to
> be in your physical body to channel the effects of the spell. Still no
> effect.

I think I just like the limits that Combat Magic (because of it's split
second nature) can't be performed in Ritual Magic, and Manipulations (even
damaging ones) can be. The split second becomes a split and a half, as the
mage channels power to him first, then to target, versus to target directly.

> So, in short, mundanes are effectively immune to grounding under this
system,

That at least wound remain nice, but what about the dual nature/astral
presence for Astral Combat thing? (what did I miss out on?)

>
> which makes ground far LESS effective than it is now. About the worst you
> could do is cast something like Ignite on a flammable focus and set it
> aflame, hoping it would affect the mundane. If the focus is something like
a
> coat or a hat, you might get somewhere. But do you really want to take
> Serious to Deadly Physical Drain for it? Not a bargain most magicians are
> going to go for, IMHO.
>
>
Message no. 14
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:39:23 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-30 11:23:59 EDT, TalonMail@***.COM (Steve Kenson)
writes:

> >that was entrapped by something he couldn't deal with can now cast a
> trivial
> spell to >destroy it and leave.
>
> That's my whole problem with FAB: the character can't do thing one about
it.
> As both a GM and a player I dislike situations that are: "OK, this
happens,
> but there's absolutely nothing you can do about it, so don't even try." An
> astral form trapped on all sides by FAB is doom and can't do ANYTHING
about
> it. It's like a perfect death-trap. As a player I would find that
incredible
> unfair and frustrating.

Actually, that has happened to me once while playing Binder, my favechar.
However, by accident, I found a way out. I was going to do a Quest of True
Aura, trying to find any loopholes in the fab walls/cloud. In so doing, I
noticed the FAB had no metaplanar signature. Way out became very simple. A
Quest of True Aura on myself (hence, my body), and when I came back to body,
I was out of the confinement (flipped out the mage).

> I'm not saying FAB should be totally worthless, only that there should be
a
> chance, no matter how small for the trapped character to DO something
about
> it. Under the new system, FAB would be rated just like a Ward (which is
> essentially what it is, an artificial, biological astral wall). So if you
> want to make the FAB in a corp facility tough, give it a Rating of 10 or
so
> and it'll kick ass on the astral. Make it Rating 15 and almost nobody will

> be
> able to get through it. But now the trapped character has the OPTION of
> fighting the FAB in astral combat to get out. It might be a very tough
fight,
>
> even a near-suicidal one, but I would prefer to have the option rather
than
> being told I had none.

And that option I have given above. For the non-initiated, how about this
for an option. Or rather, two options.

If you have an elemental or spirit, have it support your "astral weight" and
go to the home metaplanes of said being for a service. Then come back as an
additional service. Can't be done with watchers, but hey, it's a way.

If not, try "yanking your way" back down your own Astral Connection. It
could be treated as a "barrier vs. strength" roll. Living things have a
"per
se" barrier rating, if a way to oppose them can be found. If anything, give
it (the FAB wall) the barrier rating equal to the security system rating of
the place. Things can slip through the smallest cracks.

> >Physical security guards wandering through clouds of FAB are
> >suddenly vulnerable to area effect spells cast from the astral.

THAT is entirely to munchkin provoking.

> Under the Spell Targeting system I propose (see previous post), an astral
> form could ground a spell through the FAB cloud to kill it, but the
mundane
> guards are completely safe because they are not valid targets and cannot
be
> affected by any spells cast from the astral. Theoretically, the
spellcaster
> might be able to transform the FAB into something dangerous or toxic, but
> for
> the drain that would be involved (up in the Serious-Deadly range) why take
> the risk?
> Steve

My end statement is this Steve. Try and look for more options. Never give
up and go for what you know. Try and learn something new. The experience
alone has it's merits. Changing the rules for Astral Signature/Presence just
because of FAB is entirely out of proportion.
Message no. 15
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:40:13 -0600
J. Keith Henry wrote:
|
| My end statement is this Steve. Try and look for more options. Never give
| up and go for what you know. Try and learn something new. The experience
| alone has it's merits. Changing the rules for Astral Signature/Presence just
| because of FAB is entirely out of proportion.

Do you have any idea what this thread is about? The whole point of
the discussion is to discuss new ideas and options for
astral/physical laws and philosophies.

Do you know who Steve Kenson is? Read the credits for Awakenings.

The change of rules is not being discussed just because of FAB
(although the paradoxes created by FAB are more than enough reason
for me). Its also being discussed to clear up the rule mechanics for
spell casting, grounding, dual natured beings, and to simply explain
how it all works.

With SRIII on the horizon Steve (who is part of the team that will be
be producing it) is asking the list for ideas, suggestions, and
comments on the subject of Magic for SRIII.

Got it?

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 16
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:09:02 -0800
At 11:16 7/30/97 -0400, Steve Kenson wrote:
> As I mentioned, I could see
>Enchanting rituals to create astrally active materials for use in building
>astral defenses.

If it's astrally active and can be grounded through, it's quite dangerous
to people nearby. (Area effect damaging manipulations are the danger,
not power balls.)

If you have this...

>Ah, but what about a damaging manipulation spell you say? Since DMs ground
>out at the location of the caster's physical body and are then projected
>towards the target, they can't be cast while astral projecting. You have to
>be in your physical body to channel the effects of the spell.

...suddenly, the only risk of having active foci becomes equal to the risk
that
someone will destroy them on the astral. No more worries about someone
grounding
things out through your foci. It gives you much better astral security (you
can now come up with cheap ways of making items astrally active), but it
reduces
the risk of carrying an active focus around with you to the risk of "oh, I
have
to enchant another one". What doesn't bother mundanes won't bother magicians
who aren't astrally perceiving.

>On astral security: Having astrally active security is also more consistent,
>IMHO. If you have dual-natured ivy protecting your building, the GM can treat
>it just like a Ward: assign it a Rating and away you go. Unlike the dormant,
>immovable ivy of SR2, this barrier can be killed in astral combat, but it
>will fight back like any other barrier.

And, unlike wards, you can kill it without anyone being alerted to the fact.
So you just step back and cast Defoliate at it until there's a man-sized hole
in it, and you get to wait for a patrol to notice.

>On grounding: As for being able to ground through enchanted marbles or
>similar drek, you can do that now, if you really want to, but keep the
>following things in mind:
[snip]

All those things are why it's difficult to do so today. If you add
dual-natured
plants and construction materials, suddenly these no longer apply. If it's
practical to make an astrally active wall, the same amount of effort that went
into that can go into making thousands of astrally active marbles that can
be grounded through-- or one astrally active sword that an astral mage could
wield with a spell, at astral reaction speeds.

At 11:17 7/30/97 -0400, Steve Kenson wrote:
>I'm not saying FAB should be totally worthless, only that there should be a
>chance, no matter how small for the trapped character to DO something about
>it. Under the new system, FAB would be rated just like a Ward (which is
>essentially what it is, an artificial, biological astral wall). So if you
>want to make the FAB in a corp facility tough, give it a Rating of 10 or so
>and it'll kick ass on the astral. Make it Rating 15 and almost nobody will be
>able to get through it. But now the trapped character has the OPTION of
>fighting the FAB in astral combat to get out. It might be a very tough fight,
>even a near-suicidal one, but I would prefer to have the option rather than
>being told I had none.

Given that physical contact with a ward and the ward attacking you are
basically synonymous, under the current rules a character would get chewed
up by the FAB cloud and killed. This could be amended easily enough, but
should be if the rules are changed.

At 09:49 7/30/97 -0600, David Buehrer wrote:
>If you use perception and cover modifiers for spellcasting, don't
>forget about the size of the target. You're modifier to hit a marble
>is what, +6? That's really going to put a crimp in the effectiveness
>of grounding that spell. Ditto for attempts to ground out through
>spell locks and most foci.

Which means your spell locks are now harder for astral mages to hit, so not
only
are you not at all worried about someone on astral patrol blowing you and your
party up, you're pretty confident it'll be difficult for them to blow away
your spell locks... I'm sure my player characters wouldn't *object* to this
change in policy, but it reduces the range of threats available to GM's. :-)

At 12:21 7/30/97 -0400, J. Keith Henry wrote:
>I had to enter into this one. You can't engage the "ivy" in Astral Combat,
>as the living signature isn't "active" on the astral level.

I think you could engage dual-natured ivy in astral combat, but I think it
would have the same amount of Unarmed Combat and Combat Pool that ivy has
when you attack it in the physical world. (Consider what happens when you
attack a dual-natured being in astral combat. It doesn't fight back like
a ward; it fights back like a being.) The ivy would need to be more than
dual-natured: it would need to be astrally aggressive.

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%
Message no. 17
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:16:42 -0800
At 12:39 7/30/97 -0400, J. Keith Henry wrote:
> However, by accident, I found a way out. I was going to do a Quest of True
>Aura, trying to find any loopholes in the fab walls/cloud. In so doing, I
>noticed the FAB had no metaplanar signature. Way out became very simple. A
>Quest of True Aura on myself (hence, my body), and when I came back to body,
>I was out of the confinement (flipped out the mage).

According to vanilla SR, you can only project to the metaplanes from your
physical body. (If this were not true, it would be a really cool way to get
out of astral confinement and deal with "I just got back from an astral trip
and someone moved my body!": hit the metaplanes, come back in your own body.)

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%
Message no. 18
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:17:37 +0100
|
|At 11:16 7/30/97 -0400, Steve Kenson wrote:
|> As I mentioned, I could see
|>Enchanting rituals to create astrally active materials for use in building
|>astral defenses.
|
|If it's astrally active and can be grounded through, it's quite dangerous
|to people nearby. (Area effect damaging manipulations are the danger,
|not power balls.)
|
|If you have this...

How about 10 feet of concrete with an enchanted layer in the middle.
The aura doesn't penetrate that far. Can't see it, can't ground through
it.... Simple....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 19
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:25:00 -0800
At 19:17 7/30/97 +0100, Spike wrote:
>How about 10 feet of concrete with an enchanted layer in the middle.
>The aura doesn't penetrate that far. Can't see it, can't ground through
>it.... Simple....

So you float through the concrete until you can touch the enchanted layer,
and ground out through that. Simple.

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%
Message no. 20
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:00:57 -0600
Max Rible wrote:
|
| At 19:17 7/30/97 +0100, Spike wrote:
| >How about 10 feet of concrete with an enchanted layer in the middle.
| >The aura doesn't penetrate that far. Can't see it, can't ground through
| >it.... Simple....
|
| So you float through the concrete until you can touch the enchanted layer,
| and ground out through that. Simple.

And how does touching it give you the ability to see it? Not so simple :)

BTW Spike, very nice <EGMG>.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 21
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:11:25 -0800
At 13:00 7/30/97 -0600, David Buehrer wrote:
>Max Rible wrote:
>| At 19:17 7/30/97 +0100, Spike wrote:
>| >How about 10 feet of concrete with an enchanted layer in the middle.
>| >The aura doesn't penetrate that far. Can't see it, can't ground through
>| >it.... Simple....

>| So you float through the concrete until you can touch the enchanted layer,
>| and ground out through that. Simple.

>And how does touching it give you the ability to see it? Not so simple :)

I simply don't believe that you can't spellcast at something you can touch
and not see.

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%
Message no. 22
From: Gossamer <kajohnson@*******.TEC.WI.US>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:26:26 -0500
> According to vanilla SR, you can only project to the metaplanes
> from your physical body.

Disagree.

If you're being followed by a watcher that you can't outrun, a quick
trip in the meta direction is the one sure way to lose them...

As per the Watchers section of GrimII (someone quote me a page).

Love,

Gossamer
Message no. 23
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:15:45 -0800
At 14:26 7/31/97 -0500, Gossamer wrote:
>> According to vanilla SR, you can only project to the metaplanes
>> from your physical body.

>Disagree.
>
>If you're being followed by a watcher that you can't outrun, a quick
>trip in the meta direction is the one sure way to lose them...
>
>As per the Watchers section of GrimII (someone quote me a page).

I thought that required that you go back to your body and hit the metaplanes.
Then again, it wouldn't be the first time the Shadowrun rules contradicted
themselves...

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%
Message no. 24
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:21:43 +0100
|
|At 19:17 7/30/97 +0100, Spike wrote:
|>How about 10 feet of concrete with an enchanted layer in the middle.
|>The aura doesn't penetrate that far. Can't see it, can't ground through
|>it.... Simple....
|
|So you float through the concrete until you can touch the enchanted layer,
|and ground out through that. Simple.

But that wouldn't affect anthing BUT the layer itself using Steves new
rules....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 25
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:26:25 -0800
At 21:21 7/30/97 +0100, Spike wrote:
>|At 19:17 7/30/97 +0100, Spike wrote:
>|>How about 10 feet of concrete with an enchanted layer in the middle.
>|>The aura doesn't penetrate that far. Can't see it, can't ground through
>|>it.... Simple....

>|So you float through the concrete until you can touch the enchanted layer,
>|and ground out through that. Simple.

>But that wouldn't affect anthing BUT the layer itself using Steves new
>rules....

It would do nicely for putting a hole in the barrier, permitting the mage to
float on through. It wouldn't even set off any alarms, since it's embedded in
concrete, unless someone figured out how to make a tamper sensor that would
figure out that the material it was hooked up to was being disrupted in some
way...

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%
Message no. 26
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:52:56 -0700
---"J. Keith Henry" wrote:
>
> > On astral security: Having astrally active security is also more
> consistent,
> > IMHO. If you have dual-natured ivy protecting your building, the
GM can
> > treat
> > it just like a Ward: assign it a Rating and away you go. Unlike
the
> dormant,
> > immovable ivy of SR2, this barrier can be killed in astral
combat, but it
> > will fight back like any other barrier.
> >
> I had to enter into this one. You can't engage the "ivy" in Astral
Combat,
> as the living signature isn't "active" on the astral level. Yeah,
this is
> part of that Metaphysical Hairsplitting that was mentioned in the
part I
> snipped (sorry), but there is a BIG difference between active astral
presence
> and passive astral presence. If you start doing the "dual nature"
options
> for living beings, then Astral Combat becomes INCREDIBLY dangerous.

In his example, Steve's referring to having a special breed of
awakened ivy that was grown and bred to be dual natured for astral
security. He's not referring to making all living beings dual natured
or astrally present.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're being held up by a stim patch, Loki's almost a pile of ashes
thanks to that fire elemental, and we've got the Baron running around
screaming assassins...assassins...oh eek, assassins!"
--> Caric to Ook during the Harlequin Campaign
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 27
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:57:14 EDT
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:21:43 +0100 Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
writes:
>|So you float through the concrete until you can touch the enchanted
>layer,
>|and ground out through that. Simple.
>
>But that wouldn't affect anthing BUT the layer itself using Steves new
>rules....


Which is fine, because you've accomplished what you wanted: you're in.


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 28
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:54:24 EDT
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:28:33 -0400 "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
writes:
>In a message dated 97-07-30 11:18:03 EDT, TalonMail@***.COM (Steve
>Kenson)
>writes:
>
>>
>> 1) Enchanted items generally have to be in contact with their user to
be
>> astrally active.
>
>Not necessarily. They have to be "turned on", if their are foci-like,
than
>they can be carried off. As long as the magician maintains astral
>perception upon the link, it is going. This is one of the loopholes on
astral
>maintenance.

eh? Where'd that come from? AFAIK the only thing that maintains an
astral presence AFTER leaving *physical* contact with the magician who
activated it is a spell lock, and if you remove it from who ever it was
activated on, it too goes dormant.

Did I miss some pages in SR2, the Grimmoire, or Awakenings.... or are you
just quoting a house rule?

~Tim
Message no. 29
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:50:18 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-30 15:12:44 EDT, slothman@*********.ORG (Max Rible)
writes:

>
> >And how does touching it give you the ability to see it? Not so simple
:)
>
> I simply don't believe that you can't spellcast at something you can touch
> and not see.
>
>
I agree, and I know a few Ghoul Magicians out there that might argue as well.
How about spells that are specifically touch, like Heal and/or Treat?
Message no. 30
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:50:44 -0400
Steve Kenson once dared to write,

>I would like to remove the "immovable object" problem from astral space. As
>it stands now, there are 3 types of astral things: astral forms (which can
>interact), auras (reflections of material things, which show information, but
>a non-tangible) and living beings, which can block and affect astral
>movement, but cannot in turn be affected from the astral.

I would suggest you come at this from another direction. The
"immovable object" problem is a major plot device for Shadowrun's sister
game Earthdawn. Earthdawn's Kaers featured promently in for the survival
against the Scourge. Although the rules between the two are almost
nonexistant the game logic is fairly unchanged. By your suggested ruling
there would have been no need to bury so many of the Kaers in the ground.
Any new interpretations on the existing game philosophy will be somewhat
reflected in Earthdawn as well if it's going to fly.

>This last category creates numerous awkward problems and logical paradoxes,
>as anyone who has dealt with FAT Bacteria can attest. If living things cannot
>be moved or affected from astral space, what happens if you throw a net of
>living bio-fiber over an astral form? How do astral forms displace airborne
>bacteria? etc.
<snip proposal>

We still have this can of worms which in turns starts then brings up
other tricky situations between astral and and the real world. My only
sudden inspiration during a drowsy state of an answer I have is to create
rules for handling Aura Barriers and when they must be used. It's still
an ugly way of handling it but it does push the issues through, as it
were. (No pun originally intended). If you consider this method make sure
it reflects the current barrier rules in some way (and any changes SR3
might have).


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"All artists are victims of their desire to be unique"
-Original source unknown

I am MC23
Message no. 31
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:24:31 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-30 20:40:44 EDT, slothman@*********.ORG (Max Rible)
writes:

> According to vanilla SR, you can only project to the metaplanes from your
> physical body. (If this were not true, it would be a really cool way to
get
> out of astral confinement and deal with "I just got back from an astral
trip
> and someone moved my body!": hit the metaplanes, come back in your own
body.
> )

Vanilla SR? Actually, the Vanilla SR only mentions it in other forms.
Quests can be performed from any beginning mode, as long as Astral
Connectivity is present. That is how multiple mages across the world end up
doing Astral Quests together, regardless of their beginning points (okay,
that is part of it).
Message no. 32
From: Jason & Deanna Rodhouse <jade@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 01:21:05 +1000
On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:26:26 -0500 Gossamer wrote:

> > According to vanilla SR, you can only project to the metaplanes
> > from your physical body.
>
> Disagree.
>
> If you're being followed by a watcher that you can't outrun, a quick
> trip in the meta direction is the one sure way to lose them...
>
> As per the Watchers section of GrimII (someone quote me a page).
>
> Love,
>
> Gossamer
>
Sure, page 74 GrimII. It states that if, during the search phase of a
watcher's astral tracking attempt , the target walks through a ward or
takes a trip to the metaplanes; the watcher will lose the trail. Another
page #is 94 where it says that 'the character must project directly onto
the metaplane. He can make no side trips to the etheric plane first.' It
would seem to indicate that a trip to the metaplanes from an astrally
projecting starting point is right out.

Pilgrim
Message no. 33
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:12:03 +0100
David Buehrer said on 9:49/30 Jul 97...

> If you use perception and cover modifiers for spellcasting, don't
> forget about the size of the target. You're modifier to hit a marble
> is what, +6? That's really going to put a crimp in the effectiveness
> of grounding that spell. Ditto for attempts to ground out through
> spell locks and most foci.

That is actually something SR is greatly in need of: a simple table
showing TN modifiers for object sizes. It doesn't have to be anything
fancy, but BTB it's just as easy to hit a coin as it is to hit a dragon.
Unless that coin is being held by the dragon, in which case it's a
+4 for making a called shot to shoot the coin out of its paws.

A simple table like this (values thought up on the spur of the moment, so
take them with a grain of salt):

Size Modifier
Coin +8
Weapon +4
Body part +4
Dwarf +1
Human +0
Troll -1
Small car -2
Dragon -4
Medium car -4
Large car -6
Building -8

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And you can try and you just might...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 34
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:29:07 -0400
"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM> writes:
>The rules are understandable, NOT clear. In that form I completely agree
>with you. However, the concept of making a Passive Aura interactable on the
>Astral Plane opens to many doors for abuse, even if it is only for a single
>living thing.

Perhaps there is a misunderstanding of my proposal here, if so, I apologize.
Clarity is one of the goals I am going for. To restate:

I am IN NO WAY proposing astral forms have the ability to attack those
things/beings not present on the astral plane. A mundane is a mundane and is
invulnerable to astral attack. If anything, I would like to see LESS
interaction between the physical and astral planes.

What I am suggesting is making the division between "active astral form" and
"intangible mundane aura/astral shadow" more clear-cut and distinct.
Something either exists on the astral, affecting it and therefore subject to
astral attack in return, or it does not, is intangible on the astral but
likewise cannot affect astral things.

The whole dual-natured ivy thing is just this: the awakened plants act as a
Ward IN EVERY WAY. This means they have a Rating, which is used in astral
combat (against intruding astral projectors or spells cast their way). The
plants are dual-natured, therefore astrally active like a pereiving
character. The "spirit" or astral form of the plants IS aggressive and does
fight in astral combat. They don't just sit there waiting to be killed any
more than a ward (or any other type of astral barrier) does.

For example, a corp research building is protecting by a Rating 6 para-ivy
grown over its walls. An astral projector with Sorcery 6 flys up and tries to
pass through. The ivy attacks. Both sides roll Astral Combat Tests using
their dice vs. TN 4. If the ivy gets more successes, it does combat damage
like a Barrier, or 6M, if the projector wins, his successes reduce the ivy's
Rating. If the projector wins the combat (ie, reduces the ivy's Rating to 0)
he is able to pass through, but "the barrier remains intact against all other
intruders." (SRII, "Barriers," p.147) just like a normal astral barrier.

If you want to prevent astral intrusion entirely (like ivy does in the
present system) just give the para-ivy ward a Rating of something like 12 or
more and tell the projector that when they assense the barrier. It would be
suicide to try breaking through it. If they still want to try, they deserve
what they get.

In my proposal, the same example is true with FAT Bacteria, alchemically
prepared concrete, wards, active hermetic circles, medicine lodges or any
other type of astral barrier. They all work the same.

Steve
Message no. 35
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:29:13 -0400
MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
> I would suggest you come at this from another direction. The
>"immovable object" problem is a major plot device for Shadowrun's sister
>game Earthdawn. Earthdawn's Kaers featured promently in for the survival
>against the Scourge. Although the rules between the two are almost
>nonexistant the game logic is fairly unchanged. By your suggested ruling
>there would have been no need to bury so many of the Kaers in the ground.
>Any new interpretations on the existing game philosophy will be somewhat
>reflected in Earthdawn as well if it's going to fly.

The kaers in ED were not just holes in the ground, they were reinforced with
the True Elements, which are astrally active in Shadowrun terms. Putting them
underground beneath lots of stone and earth was designed to provide a barrier
to the PHYSICAL horrors who might come a'knockin, the astral barrier was
provided by the True Elements and the wards created by the Theran Rites of
Protection and Passage woven into the physical structure of the kaer.

That's one explaination that works. So I don't think the proposed concept
would mess up any of the logic behind ED, but that's up to the FASA
developers to decide, not me.

Steve
Message no. 36
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:28:58 -0400
>"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM> writes:
>In a message dated 97-07-30 11:18:03 EDT, TalonMail@***.COM (Steve Kenson)
>writes:
>> On astral security: Having astrally active security is also more
>consistent,
>> IMHO. If you have dual-natured ivy protecting your building, the GM can
>> treat
>> it just like a Ward: assign it a Rating and away you go. Unlike the
>dormant,
>> immovable ivy of SR2, this barrier can be killed in astral combat, but it
>> will fight back like any other barrier.
>>
>I had to enter into this one. You can't engage the "ivy" in Astral Combat,
>as the living signature isn't "active" on the astral level. Yeah, this is
>part of that Metaphysical Hairsplitting that was mentioned in the part I
>snipped (sorry), but there is a BIG difference between active astral
presence
>and passive astral presence. If you start doing the "dual nature" options
>for living beings, then Astral Combat becomes INCREDIBLY dangerous.

I'm trying to say (poorly, aparently) that under the system I propose there
are only active astral forms and the intangible reflections of material
things. The theoretical awakened ivy in question would be a dual-being with a
Force Rating on the astral and able to engage in astral combat like any other
astral barrier. It's no different than the corp having a ward around their
building, just cheaper to maintain.

If you're asking if I intend to make more (meta)humans astrally active, the
answer is no. I am suggesting ways to have the same (or similar) astral
security as there is now without the "immovable living object" problem that I
feel creates too many exceptions and special-case scenarios in the present
system.

Steve
Message no. 37
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:29:01 -0400
>"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM> writes:
>>Steve Kenson writes:
>> That's my whole problem with FAB: the character can't do thing one about
>it.
>> As both a GM and a player I dislike situations that are: "OK, this
>happens,
>> but there's absolutely nothing you can do about it, so don't even try."
An
>> astral form trapped on all sides by FAB is doom and can't do ANYTHING
>about
>> it. It's like a perfect death-trap. As a player I would find that
>incredible
>> unfair and frustrating.
>
>Actually, that has happened to me once while playing Binder, my favechar.
> However, by accident, I found a way out. I was going to do a Quest of True
>Aura, trying to find any loopholes in the fab walls/cloud. In so doing, I
>noticed the FAB had no metaplanar signature. Way out became very simple. A
>Quest of True Aura on myself (hence, my body), and when I came back to body,
>I was out of the confinement (flipped out the mage).

Interesting idea, but:

"To begin an astral quest, the character must astrally project onto a
metaplane. Initiates with the ability to use astral projection can do this
under their own power. Others must gain access to astral space through a free
spirit using the astral gateway power (p.79). Either way, THE CHARACTER MUST
PROJECT DIRECTLY ONTO THE METAPLANE [emphasis mine]. He can make no side
trips to the etheric plane first." (Grimoire II, p.93-94)

To go the the metaplanes, you have to go there directly from leaving your
body. If you're wandering around the etheric (lower astral) and you get
trapped by FAB, you can't project onto a metaplane to escape, at least not
according to the rules as presently written.

> For the non-initiated, how about this
>for an option. Or rather, two options.
>
>If you have an elemental or spirit, have it support your "astral weight" and
>go to the home metaplanes of said being for a service. Then come back as an
>additional service. Can't be done with watchers, but hey, it's a way.
>
>If not, try "yanking your way" back down your own Astral Connection. It
>could be treated as a "barrier vs. strength" roll. Living things have a
"per
>se" barrier rating, if a way to oppose them can be found. If anything, give
>it (the FAB wall) the barrier rating equal to the security system rating of
>the place. Things can slip through the smallest cracks.

Interesting options as well, BUT my point is there is no way to escape from a
completely sealed FAB containment grid AS THE RULES ARE PRESENTLY WRITTEN.
All of the options you suggest are completely new ideas not currently in the
rules. Within the scope of the existing rules, FAB is completely invulnerable
to astral reprisal and there's no way to get out of it. The only potential
loophole depends on whether or not the projecting character can summon a
spirit to help him out, which I admit is nebulous.

>> >Physical security guards wandering through clouds of FAB are
>> >suddenly vulnerable to area effect spells cast from the astral.
>
>THAT is entirely to munchkin provoking.
>
>> Under the Spell Targeting system I propose (see previous post), an astral
>> form could ground a spell through the FAB cloud to kill it, but the
>mundane
>> guards are completely safe because they are not valid targets and cannot
>be
>> affected by any spells cast from the astral. Theoretically, the
>spellcaster
>> might be able to transform the FAB into something dangerous or toxic, but
>> for
>> the drain that would be involved (up in the Serious-Deadly range) why
take
>> the risk?
>> Steve
>
>My end statement is this Steve. Try and look for more options. Never give
>up and go for what you know. Try and learn something new. The experience
>alone has it's merits. Changing the rules for Astral Signature/Presence
just
>because of FAB is entirely out of proportion.

Thanks for the advice. I am certainly exploring all of the options, and the
final decision will be made by FASA, not me. I would like to see some aspect
of SR magic made more consistent rather than layered with additional
special-case rules, however.

Steve
Message no. 38
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 16:22:05 GMT
Steve Kenson writes
>
> Interesting options as well, BUT my point is there is no way to escape from a
> completely sealed FAB containment grid AS THE RULES ARE PRESENTLY WRITTEN.
> All of the options you suggest are completely new ideas not currently in the
> rules.
Maybe :). What happens if you decide you are trapped and target
yourself with say a stun bolt and knock yourself out, you are
unconcious and snap back directly to your body. There has been
some discussion here about this before but there is a comment to this
effect someplace in the rules. The other one supported by the
literature but not the rules is that giving a mage a slap across the
face can snap them directly back to thier body (but even the novels
vary on this one). This could offer a way out, sure you better have
left your body somewhere you can afford to sleep it off for a while
but at least you aren't dead.
????

> Within the scope of the existing rules, FAB is completely
> invulnerable
> to astral reprisal and there's no way to get out of it. The only potential
> loophole depends on whether or not the projecting character can summon a
> spirit to help him out, which I admit is nebulous.
>
Yes.

Mark
Message no. 39
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 16:35:01 GMT
Steve Kenson writes

> I would like to remove the "immovable object" problem from astral space. As
> it stands now, there are 3 types of astral things: astral forms (which can
> interact), auras (reflections of material things, which show information, but
> a non-tangible) and living beings, which can block and affect astral
> movement, but cannot in turn be affected from the astral.
>
> But wait! you cry. What about astral security? Actually, it doesn't change
> much. You just need to make a small adjustment. Instead of covering the walls
> of a corp facility with normal ivy to create an astral barrier, say there is
> an Awakened strain of ivy that is dual natured, forming a natural Astral
> Barrier. The difference is, now you can fight the barrier in astral combat to
> break through it like you would any other.

>
> Thoughts?

I forsee some problems.
I rather liked the fact that ivy covered building offered mundanes a
fairly effective and totally astral magician proof method of
protection, it gives the non magicians a chance against something
they cannot detect, the astral mage spying mission is a very powerful
information gatehring technique which if you are not careful mundanes
have absolutely no defense against. The problem with making the
things dual is even if you ban grounding area effect spells (one of
the few things that discourages unmasked spell locks because of risk
of the whole team going up to one fireball) mundanes no longer have a
mage proof defense which they do now though its sufficiently awkward
to use that it remains rare.

The other problem someone mentioned is masked intiates become easy to
find, just try flying through them, the guy who looks normal but you
cannot fly through is masking astral connections. Clever mages can
actually already do this, the detect magic spell will find thier
locks even if you cannot see them :) but it does become easier.

I can see the advantages over FAB though i have followed the 'when
all else fails and the mage gets trapped rule it as if the object hit
his physical body, nets drape over (assuming he hits something firm
otherwise they just push him asside) but 10ton weights coated in FAB
create mage pancake on hitting the ground, result being red teammates
when astral repercussion sets in, yuck. The other answer to FAB is
simply to say things either 'are plants rooted in the soil', 'mouse
plus sizes animals' or are too small to matter, nothing capable of
floating in the air counting as blocking astral movement.

On this matter, oricalcum. I have rated this as not dual but blocking
movement the same as plants do... ?? which allows a few really neat
tricks the corp sec handbook doesn't cover.

Mark
Message no. 40
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:41:51 -0400
I've been following this Full of Life thread, and find a lot of
what Steve's saying as interesting, and he's right. Implimented
correctly, his suggestions would streamline ease of pley and eliminate a
lot of the 'foggy' areas about the whole astral thing. I'll probably
start suing them in my games to see how they work [my players run in
terror!].
Concerning astral perception, I've never allowed a mage in astral
space to bombard someone, using their astral perception as pathway thru
the planes. I play Astral Perception as an altering of a person's
perceptions, viewing something that's already there, you're just
attuning your eyes to see it. Sort of like one of those hidden dot
pictures I used to take in school for color perception[evil
psychological tests promulgated by the Technocracy!].
If you put on a pair of special lenses designed to filter out
certain wavelengths of light, the 'hidden' picture in all the dots
becomes visible. I see Astral Perception as a player momentarily 'wiping
clear' the frosted window that separates the astral realm from the
physical one, and looking in. It in NO way involves breaching the
barriers between the two, so it can't be used as a channel for sending
spells back and forth.
From the occult journals I've read, auras are projections, fields
radiated by objects, people, etc. just like the magnetic filed raidated
by a current passing thru a wire. It's intangible, but it's still very
real.
In my game, there's several layers to a person's aura. What most
untrained seers view when they look at a person is the topmost layer,
and the energy 'particles' thrown off and reabsorbed. The radius of a
person's aura can extend anywhere from half a centimeter from a person's
body, up to as much as 25 c.m.! The Dali lama was said to have had an
aura that radiated out for several miles!
In game terms, the aura's determined by a person's Charisma, and
Magical Ability [if any]. A very charismatic entertainer will have an
aura that reaches out several centimeters from his body. An initiate
when she learns to mask her aura, can control the radius her aura
extends as well, to a CERTAIN extent. This is NO reflection of her true
power, but an ILLUSION she can create. And bear in mind, the aura IS
just a field radiated by a person, object, etc. It's a force, NOT a
physical presense.
By reading a person's aura, you can determine things like if that
person has a dominant or receptive personality, is a very charismatic
individual or introverted, etc. And you can pick up on the subtle
interactions between two people, by the way the energy 'particles' are
thrown and absorbed between them when they argue, talk, make love. Areas
that are sick, or will be sick in the immediate future, already
manifesting as flaws in the person's energy field, can be detected.
[For those who don't understand what I mean by these particles, think of
them as imaginary iron filings that are pulled between two or more aura
fields, depending on their strengths. For something more indepth and
precise, I'd suggest grabbing a book on the subject]. All this takes a
bit of practice, and almost certainly the Astral Perception skill.
I know if you use the following, there's plenty of potential for
abuse by the powergamers, etc. out there, and I can already hear the
cries of the masses rising into a near incoherent cacaphony, but it
works in my game, and if you don't think it'll work in your, DON'T use
it. Besides, all my summations and extrapolations comes from the source
material I've read on Auras and Aura Reading, Eastern and Western
Mysticism, and stuff. There's tons of books and web pages on these
subjects, so check them out, and draw your own conclusions. Whether or
not you believe in them ISN'T important; it's how they affect
believability, playbility, and the depth they add to your respective
games that is.
Try these web pages as a start:

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~anat0010/malcom/links.html

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~cbsiren/myth.html

http://www.arcana.com/shannon/voodoo/voodoo,html

http://www.hyperlink.com/weaver/96/25_2/dev/journeys/march.htm

Have a good one.

Kohl
Message no. 41
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:05:42 -0400
At 04:22 PM 7/31/97 GMT, Mark Steedman wrote these timeless words:
>Steve Kenson writes
>>
>> Interesting options as well, BUT my point is there is no way to escape
from a
>> completely sealed FAB containment grid AS THE RULES ARE PRESENTLY WRITTEN.
>> All of the options you suggest are completely new ideas not currently in
the
>> rules.
>Maybe :). What happens if you decide you are trapped and target
>yourself with say a stun bolt and knock yourself out, you are
>unconcious and snap back directly to your body. There has been
>some discussion here about this before but there is a comment to this
>effect someplace in the rules. The other one supported by the
>literature but not the rules is that giving a mage a slap across the
>face can snap them directly back to thier body (but even the novels
>vary on this one). This could offer a way out, sure you better have
>left your body somewhere you can afford to sleep it off for a while
>but at least you aren't dead.
>????
>
I don;t know... maybe I'm just a prick, but I'd say that the astral form,
if trapped, can;t return to the body of the magician. Sure, it snaps back
to the body normally in an instant, but I'd say the astral form still has
to travel the distance back, regardless of the speed. Otherwise you assume
that astral form "teleports" there, and that just opens up a whole other
can of worms...

I'd say at best, nothing happens to the mage if he tried to knowck himself
out when trapped. At worst, he goes unconsciuos and is still trapped. If
he remains trapped and unconscious for longer than his magic rating allows,
you have one dead mage...

<shrug>

Just my opinion though... Take it or leave it...;]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
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Message no. 42
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:08:56 -0400
A clarification, for those still confused by the concept of auras.
You CAN'T target an aura, no matter HOW far it extends from the
object that generates it, as it doesn't have a PHYSICAL presence to
ground thru, the same way you can't shoot the electromagnetic field
generated by a current passing thru a wire, to destroy the wire. I'm
pretty sure Steve's said this anyway [though probably in a different,
clearer manner :-].
And I didn't make up the bit about the Dali Lama's aura; i came
across the reference in 3 articles. Game terms, I'd put him as an
Initiate Grade 20+! [Ha Ha]

Have a good one.

Kohl
Message no. 43
From: Quicksilver <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:44:37 -0400
>
> The whole dual-natured ivy thing is just this: the awakened plants act as a
> Ward IN EVERY WAY. This means they have a Rating, which is used in astral
> combat (against intruding astral projectors or spells cast their way). The
> plants are dual-natured, therefore astrally active like a pereiving
> character. The "spirit" or astral form of the plants IS aggressive and does
> fight in astral combat. They don't just sit there waiting to be killed any
> more than a ward (or any other type of astral barrier) does.

My problem with this is that a mage can just stand off and blast the ivy
with a spell of some kind. Sure, he can do the same kind of thing to a
ward (shattershield spell,) but the ward is not vulnerable to mundane
attacks as well.

Quicksilver rides again
Message no. 44
From: david lowe <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:23:20 -0800
At 9:29 AM 7/31/97, Steve Kenson wrote:

>For example, a corp research building is protecting by a Rating 6 para-ivy
>grown over its walls. An astral projector with Sorcery 6 flys up and tries to
>pass through. The ivy attacks. Both sides roll Astral Combat Tests using
>their dice vs. TN 4. If the ivy gets more successes, it does combat damage
>like a Barrier, or 6M, if the projector wins, his successes reduce the ivy's
>Rating. If the projector wins the combat (ie, reduces the ivy's Rating to 0)
>he is able to pass through, but "the barrier remains intact against all other
>intruders." (SRII, "Barriers," p.147) just like a normal astral
barrier.
>

Question, Steve:
What would be the effect upon the physical plane? I mean, if a caster was
grounding (ooh, there's that word again) a defoilant spell, physical combat
spell or DM through the para-ivy to defeat it, I imagine there would be a
noticable effect upon the ivy in the physical world.

Would there be a similar effect if they were attacking it as a ward? ie,
would Jane-Sec Guard have a chance to notice that somebody's astrally
wacking their guard plant? I feel that there should be some physical
effect. What's your opinions?

D.

David R. Lowe (dlowe@****.com)
Photography/Graphic Design

"I can't help it, I'm a greedy slob. It's my hobby."
-Daffy Duck

-
GC3.1 GCA$ d- s: a- C++++ U P L E? W+ N++ o K w-- O- M++$ V--
PS++ PE Y+ PGP- t 5 X+ R+++$ tv- b++ DI++ D--- G++ e++ h--- r++ y+
-
Message no. 45
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:18:22 -0600
Quicksilver wrote:
|
| > The whole dual-natured ivy thing is just this: the awakened plants act as a
| > Ward IN EVERY WAY. This means they have a Rating, which is used in astral
| > combat (against intruding astral projectors or spells cast their way). The
| > plants are dual-natured, therefore astrally active like a pereiving
| > character. The "spirit" or astral form of the plants IS aggressive and
does
| > fight in astral combat. They don't just sit there waiting to be killed any
| > more than a ward (or any other type of astral barrier) does.
|
| My problem with this is that a mage can just stand off and blast the ivy
| with a spell of some kind. Sure, he can do the same kind of thing to a
| ward (shattershield spell,) but the ward is not vulnerable to mundane
| attacks as well.

IMO, such a defense would be backed up and layered. Put the dual-natured
ivy up as your basic wall. Then toss a couple of watchers out there to
watch the perimeter. Have a mage or two inside, with a couple of elementals
on standby, ready to start wacking if something twigs with the ivy.

Or do like Steve said. Plant a Rating 12 Ivy wall.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 46
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:49:51 -0800
At 09:29 7/31/97 -0400, Steve Kenson wrote:
>The whole dual-natured ivy thing is just this: the awakened plants act as a
>Ward IN EVERY WAY.
...
>For example, a corp research building is protecting by a Rating 6 para-ivy
>grown over its walls. An astral projector with Sorcery 6 flys up and tries to
>pass through. The ivy attacks. Both sides roll Astral Combat Tests using
>their dice vs. TN 4. If the ivy gets more successes, it does combat damage
>like a Barrier, or 6M, if the projector wins, his successes reduce the ivy's
>Rating. If the projector wins the combat (ie, reduces the ivy's Rating to 0)
>he is able to pass through, but "the barrier remains intact against all other
>intruders." (SRII, "Barriers," p.147) just like a normal astral
barrier.

This has a believability problem for me. If you kill the astral form of the
ivy, the ivy should *die*.

Alternatively, there could be a form of Awakened ivy that naturally
creates a ward in astral space where it's growing in the physical world.

At 11:18 7/31/97 -0600, David Buehrer wrote:
>Quicksilver wrote:
>| My problem with this is that a mage can just stand off and blast the ivy
>| with a spell of some kind. Sure, he can do the same kind of thing to a
>| ward (shattershield spell,) but the ward is not vulnerable to mundane
>| attacks as well.

>IMO, such a defense would be backed up and layered. Put the dual-natured
>ivy up as your basic wall. Then toss a couple of watchers out there to
>watch the perimeter. Have a mage or two inside, with a couple of elementals
>on standby, ready to start wacking if something twigs with the ivy.

However, this is a great deal more expensive than just having an ivy-lichen
wall. One of the things I *like* about a standard, unAwakened ivy-lichen
wall is that it's an excellent astral barrier that isn't terribly expensive,
so it's believable that people are spending the nuyen for it. Whenever I'm
designing a target for shadowrunners, I look at the kind of expense required
to maintain it. Wards and magicians and elementals cost a lot; an ivy-lichen
wall has a modest startup cost and low maintenance, and can be used to make
life tricky for runners without making them say, "Hey! Someone must be
spending
like fifty kilonuyen a year on this ward!" Once an astral mage can start
quietly whacking ivy, it means you need a lot more expensive astral security.
(Wards, at least, ping their creators when they're attacked. Ivy isn't going
to do that.)

As far as I can tell, this whole need for non-astral living things to be
permeable to astral things comes down to FAB. If you don't worry about
FAB, living
walls are a splendid thing and everything works just fine. What if living
things
can stop astral forms, but only if they're dense enough? This means that
ordinary
bacteria flying through the air after someone sneezes won't blow an astral
mage
across the room, and that FAB, if it *weren't* a dual-natured critter,
would be
unable to impede a magician. Make FAB dual-natured so magicians can battle it
like Steve would like, but allow unAwakened ivy-lichen walls to remain useful
barriers. (When making the call about bacteria, it'd be good to hear
whether the level of plankton in the ocean qualifies as a barrier.) If you
want to capture a magician, you need a FAB net, because they'll just squirt
out
of one containing strands of algae. Cheap astral barriers remain available.
Living soil keeps mages from getting into your facility by going underground.

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%
Message no. 47
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:40:45 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-31 03:06:50 EDT, z-i-m@****.COM (Tim Cooper) writes:

>
> eh? Where'd that come from? AFAIK the only thing that maintains an
> astral presence AFTER leaving *physical* contact with the magician who
> activated it is a spell lock, and if you remove it from who ever it was
> activated on, it too goes dormant.
>
> Did I miss some pages in SR2, the Grimmoire, or Awakenings.... or are you
> just quoting a house rule?
>
> ~Tim
>
Last I Knew, it was an SR rule, but now I can't find the ruling itself (so
kick me). However, the same holds true for sustaining spells so maybe I had
the two mixed up. However, sustaining a short-lived construct vs. a more
sturdy one might make things interesting.
Message no. 48
From: "Robert G. Brook" <rgb1@**.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 03:02:44 -0500
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Steve Kenson wrote:

> <I'm going to reply to this thread in general rather than specific posts>
>
> Generally speaking, the main reason I like removing the special status of
> living things on the astral is it's simple and clear-cut. Something is either
> present in astral space as a solid (and affectable) object or it is not. The
> current system creates too many special-case rules and too much metaphysical
> hair-splitting, IMHO.

I think your ideas on states (astral, aural, physical) are great. They
make for a simple, coherent system that, IMHO, better implements the
'feel' of magic in SR.

>
> As for the suggestion of adding the True Elements (ala Earthdawn) to
> Shadowrun, probably not. I'd tend to say the mana gradient isn't high enough
> to sustain such manifestations at this time. It is also my opinion that SR
> orichalcum isn't quite the same as ED orichalcum. The ED stuff is a composite
> of the True Elements while the SR stuff is a magical alloy of Gold, Silver,
> Copper and Mercury (symbolic of the four elements). Orichalcum is "magical"
> but it is not automatically astrally active. As I mentioned, I could see
> Enchanting rituals to create astrally active materials for use in building
> astral defenses.
>
> On astral security: Having astrally active security is also more consistent,
> IMHO. If you have dual-natured ivy protecting your building, the GM can treat
> it just like a Ward: assign it a Rating and away you go. Unlike the dormant,
> immovable ivy of SR2, this barrier can be killed in astral combat, but it
> will fight back like any other barrier.

I agree completely with both above points.

>
> On grounding: As for being able to ground through enchanted marbles or
> similar drek, you can do that now, if you really want to, but keep the
> following things in mind:
>
> 1) Enchanted items generally have to be in contact with their user to be
> astrally active.

I would suggest that you require an individual employing a foci to link
his astral form to the foci in order to gain the benefits of the foci. I
believe this makes for good sense and for good gameplay and is entirely
justifiable when one considers that karma is 'expended' in bonding the
foci to the user. In game terms, an adept or magician employing an active
foci (or spell lock) regardless of its location or target would become
dual natured by virtue of his link to the active foci. I envision this
link as an astral cord spanning between the foci's astral presence and
the bonded user's astral presence. Hence, any attack against the foci or
cord would affect the user. Please note that the astral form of the
foci will always coincide in position with the physical form of the user
or the astral form of the user, thus making the cord length effectively
zero, unless the user is physically seperated from his active foci.

I believe the above suggestions (or something along thier line of
purpose) are necessary if the ability of an astral entity (think
grounded spell) to affect the physical world is restricted to the foci
itself (regardless of spell type, as indicated by the example Steve
outlines below in #3). If such a system is not employed, then there is
very little danger in using active foci, resulting, IMHO,in even
more abuse of spell locks and foci, in general.

> 2)Enchanting takes time and karma

> 3) Under the revised Spell Targeting system I propose you need two
qualities
> to target a spell: line of sight and astral symmetry. So your chummer
tosses
> your enchanted marble into a room full of mundanes and toss a powerball
at
> it. You're astral projecting. The marble is astrally active and you can
see
> it, so it's a valid target. The powerball slams into it. You can also
see
> (assense) the people in the room, but they are NOT valid targets, so you
> cannot target them. Net effect: a marble flys into the room, hits the
floor
> and goes "PIFT!" turning into dust and everybody wonders what the point
of it
> was.

> Ah, but what about a damaging manipulation spell you say? Since DMs
ground
> out at the location of the caster's physical body and are then projected
> towards the target, they can't be cast while astral projecting. You have
to
> be in your physical body to channel the effects of the spell. Still no
> effect.
> So, in short, mundanes are effectively immune to grounding under this
system,
> which makes ground far LESS effective than it is now. About the worst
you
> could do is cast something like Ignite on a flammable focus and set it
>aflame, hoping it would affect the mundane. If the focus is something
like a
> coat or a hat, you might get somewhere. But do you really want to take
>Serious to Deadly Physical Drain for it? Not a bargain most magicians are
> going to go for, IMHO. > > Steve >

I agree completely with this change, excepting the one point I attempted
to explian above. If my prose is not particualarly clear, I apologize.
I'm VERY tired.

-Glenn Brook
Message no. 49
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:29:12 GMT
W0lfstar writes

his message only came to me so here in full.

> In a message dated 97-07-31 22:49:58 EDT, you write:
>
> > mundanes no longer have a
> > mage proof defense which they do now though its sufficiently awkward
> > to use that it remains rare.
>
> It's not awkward. One word: kudzu. Anyone who lives in the deep south in the
> US knows, for the rest, I'll explain.
> Kudzu is a vine plant similar to ivy that chinese terrace farmers once used
> to help make the ground stable in the hills. It was a moderately healthy, not
> too big plant that some rich type thought would look better than ivy on the
> side of their mansion. So they took it home. They forgot that they were
> taking this plant from a relatively dry, almost arid region into the
> subtropics.
> It hasn't stopped growing yet.
> There are (literally) miles and miles of highway where a regular feature is
> telephone poles completely encased in kudzu. Vines growing out over power
> lines aren't uncommon, and if there's no traffic on the highways for a week,
> you'll be driving on it. Drop about 50 seeds along a wall, and a corp will
> spend more keeping it in check than on making it grow healthy. I shudder to
> think what a magically active kudzu vine would do to the astral plane.
>
Ok and just how do you propose to open the doors :). Covering the
walls and roof is easy its the bits that have to open to let people
in that get tricky. Also i doubt a building covered in this stuff
looks like the sort of gleaming corporate tower most corps like to
present to visitors. I hadn't heard of this particular plant myslef
but.
> Wolfstar
>
Mark
Message no. 50
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:08:58 -0600
Here's some thoughts on the physical/aura/astral...

How about four aspects?

Physical form: self explanatory.

Aura: a shadow/reflection of an object in astral space. An Aura is
only useful for identification purposes, and is used indirectly by
magicians for spell targeting. Auras are immaterial and can neither
be directly affected by, nor directly affect, anything on either the
physical or astral plane.

Astral form: Everything has an astral form. If an object/being has
both a physical and an astral form, and the astral form resides on
the astral plane, then it is considered to be dual natured.

Astral Presence: This very rare aspect grants a physical
object/being a presence in astral space. The sole effect of this
presence is that it acts as a barrier to astral forms. Having an
astral presence does not qualify an object/being as dual natured. To
date FAB and the Earth are the only known entities with an Astral
Presence.

This still doesn't solve some people's problems, but maybe it'll
start some gears turning :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 51
From: Lorden <westln@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:14:26 -0400
On Jul 31, 9:29am, Steve Kenson wrote:
> Subject: Re: Full of Life
>...
> Interesting options as well, BUT my point is there is no way to escape from a
> completely sealed FAB containment grid AS THE RULES ARE PRESENTLY WRITTEN.
>...
>
> Steve
>-- End of excerpt from Steve Kenson

There are two things I would add.

Currently within the rules there is the loop hole as someone
pointed out that a mage knocked unconscious returns to his body.
It is unclear how this is accomplished or if this also happens if
the path is blocked. Wether your spirit is pulled into your
astral tether which may already reach back to your body hence
has not been blocked by the deployed gas. Or the tether passses
through the meta planes. While tether may be to strong a word
call it a link back to your body like the link you have to
items you create or which a watcher might follow to find you.

Second. I don't have a problem with a mage being trapped in
astral space. The mage's chummers should be rescueing him if
he is trapped. After all it's fun to tease a mage about how he
needed a mundane to spray defoiliant on the ivy, or knock out a
window to let gass escape. Thats one reason my character carries
a inflatable manican and CO2 cartidge. Inflate manican, mage
goes inside, and walk right through the FAB. There is also the
out, talk to the people who caught you.

That asside, I do appreciate the immovable delema the living nets
create. I fail to see how making fab or ivy effectively a barrier
solves the basic problem. The living net is now a barrier.
Assuming the barrier is high enough that a mage will not be able
to defeat it. The mage is trapped in it. An astral mage is
supporting a physical weight(althought the object is astrally
active). Since the barrier(net) is in contact with the mage it
is doing damage to the mage and will kill him very quickly. If
the net(barrier) is even with the mage in strength you have
mundanes doing damage to astral mages with no recourse for the
mage. Plus you are still left with a battle that will go on for
a little while. During this time the mage would be supporting the
net.

I would think that letting a mage intereact physically(supporting)
the net) is part of the problem. This opens up the question could
an astrall mage give a leg up to a duel natured creature, or one
that is perceiving.

My appologize if this is not too clear.

--
Nigel westln@***.edu
AKA C. Yossarrian, UPAC Projectionist
AKA Lorden
Speaking for myself, and no one else.
Message no. 52
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:12:33 GMT
Lorden writes

> > completely sealed FAB containment grid AS THE RULES ARE PRESENTLY WRITTEN.
> > Steve
> >-- End of excerpt from Steve Kenson
>
> There are two things I would add.
>
> Currently within the rules there is the loop hole as someone
> pointed out that a mage knocked unconscious returns to his body.
I would assume you mean me :)
Some folks don't agree because this is something that is mentioned as
happening in certain circumstances but doesn't fit wih the rest of
the rules. However i like it because it gives a way out of this trap
and others i had that got even nastier than a closed FAB grid (that
gives the mage far too long to think about getting devious :) )
before i ever heard of FAB, the walls have been know to move you know
:) and R2 droids are not exactly common in SR (though a decker might
do :) )

> It is unclear how this is accomplished or if this also happens if
> the path is blocked. Wether your spirit is pulled into your
> astral tether which may already reach back to your body hence
> has not been blocked by the deployed gas. Or the tether passses
> through the meta planes. While tether may be to strong a word
> call it a link back to your body like the link you have to
> items you create or which a watcher might follow to find you.
>
Yes. This situation 'what happens to an unconcious mage' and 'how can
you get the attention of an astrally projecting character' could be
made clearer in SR3. Some sources suggest a slap accross the face
will bring the mage back to his body which means clever team mates
could give a lost mage a good slap after 5 1/2 hours to save his life
:)

> Second. I don't have a problem with a mage being trapped in
> astral space. The mage's chummers should be rescueing him if
> he is trapped. After all it's fun to tease a mage about how he
> needed a mundane to spray defoiliant on the ivy, or knock out a
> window to let gass escape. Thats one reason my character carries
> a inflatable manican and CO2 cartidge. Inflate manican, mage
> goes inside, and walk right through the FAB.
Yeah. There is always an easy solution to the ivy covered building,
get the local demolitions expert to 'remove' the offending wall
before you go in :), likely to attract attention but sure works!

> There is also the
> out, talk to the people who caught you.
>
Oh so much more fun for the GM, torture them frag em up and let em go
to stew on it :) Ok you don't really do the character in, its not
fair and the player might just get fed up but owing one to the folks
that caught you is an easy excuse to get the PC's to do that run you
think would be a good challenge but they feel like running away from.

Mark
Message no. 53
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:02:26 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-31 20:25:39 EDT, Victor-Fisher@******.COM (Fisher,
Victor) writes:

> A clarification, for those still confused by the concept of auras.
> You CAN'T target an aura, no matter HOW far it extends from the
> object that generates it, as it doesn't have a PHYSICAL presence to
> ground thru, the same way you can't shoot the electromagnetic field
> generated by a current passing thru a wire, to destroy the wire. I'm
> pretty sure Steve's said this anyway [though probably in a different,
> clearer manner :-].

I sure hope so, because the concept of "Targeting Auras" is the basis of
Combat Magic, and much of the "Mana" magic to begin with.

> And I didn't make up the bit about the Dali Lama's aura; i came
> across the reference in 3 articles. Game terms, I'd put him as an
> Initiate Grade 20+! [Ha Ha]

Okay, I admit it, I must have missed this one...though I am just now catching
up with my mail after 4-5 days.

-K
Message no. 54
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:08:57 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-31 22:49:28 EDT, TalonMail@***.COM (Steve Kenson)
writes:

>
> I am IN NO WAY proposing astral forms have the ability to attack those
> things/beings not present on the astral plane. A mundane is a mundane and
is
> invulnerable to astral attack. If anything, I would like to see LESS
> interaction between the physical and astral planes.
>
<snipped a bunch of stuff above and below this section>

Again Steve, I was following what you were saying, and the concept of a
special strain of Ivy or even normal Ivy as a "Ward" is allowing for the
amount of interaction to increase between the physical (mundane) and astral
planes, not decrease. I really am sorry, I am not in any way trying to
continue bickering, but it's is just one way of seeing things.
-K
Message no. 55
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:40:54 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-02 03:51:52 EDT, dbuehrer@****.ORG (David Buehrer)
writes:

> How about four aspects?

(Keith Looking up with Interest)

> Physical form: self explanatory.

Well, okay, perhaps, but it come and snip you in the butt later...

> Aura: a shadow/reflection of an object in astral space. An Aura is
> only useful for identification purposes, and is used indirectly by
> magicians for spell targeting. Auras are immaterial and can neither
> be directly affected by, nor directly affect, anything on either the
> physical or astral plane.

Have you ever considered the use of Dispelling to remove the traces of one's
"Aura" from a given crime or action scene?

> Astral form: Everything has an astral form. If an object/being has
> both a physical and an astral form, and the astral form resides on
> the astral plane, then it is considered to be dual natured.

I think I am following this.

> Astral Presence: This very rare aspect grants a physical
> object/being a presence in astral space. The sole effect of this
> presence is that it acts as a barrier to astral forms. Having an
> astral presence does not qualify an object/being as dual natured. To
> date FAB and the Earth are the only known entities with an Astral
> Presence.

Well, not the only things. Trees, Grass, Moss, Ivy, my roommates shoes,
etcetera all of have this effect (no, I'm not kidding on the latter).

> This still doesn't solve some people's problems, but maybe it'll
> start some gears turning :)

All in all though Dave, really good ideas. Perhaps that would have been a
really good idea for Steve to have looked into, as he was wanting to "define"
the astral more.
-K
Message no. 56
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:04:20 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-04 10:13:48 EDT, M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk (Mark
Steedman) writes:

> > Second. I don't have a problem with a mage being trapped in
> > astral space. The mage's chummers should be rescueing him if
> > he is trapped. After all it's fun to tease a mage about how he
> > needed a mundane to spray defoiliant on the ivy, or knock out a
> > window to let gass escape. Thats one reason my character carries
> > a inflatable manican and CO2 cartidge. Inflate manican, mage
> > goes inside, and walk right through the FAB.
> Yeah. There is always an easy solution to the ivy covered building,
> get the local demolitions expert to 'remove' the offending wall
> before you go in :), likely to attract attention but sure works!
>
Oh, I like that one. Another suggestion that someone I know came up with is
a variation on Masking again. The magician in question alter's his/her Aura
with his Initiated Masking to "blend" with the living aura of the barrier
(Ivy in this case). It was interesting concept, so we let it fly. Came up
with an 8 for a base target number (hey, it had to be trickier than just mere
"essence") and added a +1 as it hadn't been tried before. The number of
successes "lowered" the effective wall, and allowed the mage to
"passwall"
his way through it. Literally, adding his own energies temporarily to the
living energies of the obstacle in question.
-K
Message no. 57
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:30:24 +0100
|Oh, I like that one. Another suggestion that someone I know came up with is
|a variation on Masking again. The magician in question alter's his/her Aura
|with his Initiated Masking to "blend" with the living aura of the barrier
|(Ivy in this case). It was interesting concept, so we let it fly. Came up
|with an 8 for a base target number (hey, it had to be trickier than just mere
|"essence") and added a +1 as it hadn't been tried before. The number of
|successes "lowered" the effective wall, and allowed the mage to
"passwall"
|his way through it. Literally, adding his own energies temporarily to the
|living energies of the obstacle in question.

WHAT????

And his body didn't start sprouting leaves??????

You missed a really good opportunity for some fun there....

<EGMG>
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 58
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:59:55 -0600
J. Keith Henry wrote:
|
| > How about four aspects?

[snip: Physical]

| (Keith Looking up with Interest)
|
| > Aura: a shadow/reflection of an object in astral space. An Aura is
| > only useful for identification purposes, and is used indirectly by
| > magicians for spell targeting. Auras are immaterial and can neither
| > be directly affected by, nor directly affect, anything on either the
| > physical or astral plane.
|
| Have you ever considered the use of Dispelling to remove the traces of one's
| "Aura" from a given crime or action scene?

Okay, but it's a *trace* of an aura, not the actual aura itself.

| > Astral form: Everything has an astral form. If an object/being has

[snip]

| > Astral Presence: This very rare aspect grants a physical
| > object/being a presence in astral space. The sole effect of this
| > presence is that it acts as a barrier to astral forms. Having an
| > astral presence does not qualify an object/being as dual natured. To
| > date FAB and the Earth are the only known entities with an Astral
| > Presence.
|
| Well, not the only things. Trees, Grass, Moss, Ivy, my roommates shoes,
| etcetera all of have this effect (no, I'm not kidding on the latter).

With the last one I'm proposing how I'd like to see it work. With
the current rules every living thing that has an aura has an astral
presence. If its limited to FAB (cuz that's what FAB does) and the
Earth (why does plain old dirt block astral movement?) then I'm
happy.

I'm not saying it has to be this way :)

| All in all though Dave, really good ideas. Perhaps that would have been a
| really good idea for Steve to have looked into, as he was wanting to "define"
| the astral more.

Sometimes it takes a little while, but I can muddle my way through.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 59
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Full of Life
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:21:59 EDT
On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:08:57 -0400 "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
writes:
>Again Steve, I was following what you were saying, and the concept of a
>special strain of Ivy or even normal Ivy as a "Ward" is allowing for the
>amount of interaction to increase between the physical (mundane) and
astral
>planes, not decrease. I really am sorry, I am not in any way trying to
>continue bickering, but it's is just one way of seeing things.

OK, except that the way the rules stand NOW all you'd need to do is cover
the walls with moss and it's complete astral immunity with out contest.
What Steve's proposing is to remove the ambiguity, such that the only way
something could interact with or hinder an astral being would for it to
be EXPLICITLY dual natured. This would remove the issues of non-dual
auras (from crowds of mundanes, grass, plants, animals, etc..) from
having ANYTHING to do with what goes on in the way of astral movement.
Along with that concept is the example of how to simulate the same
effects of the "ivy ward" in the new model... you'd have to make the ivy
dual-natured (that is, you'd have to actually engineer or discover such a
form of plant life). And then along with that example is the rules
system to handle it... that is, handle it exactly as if it were a ward
for simplicity and stream-lining purposes. In the end, the only way that
it would INCREASE the interaction between the two planes is if you went
around making everything and it's goat Dual Natured. Since you and I
would probably agree that the majority of mundane auras (man, beast _and_
plant) shouldn't be dual natured, the result is a DECREASE in the
interaction between things on either plane.

~Tim

Further Reading

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