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Message no. 1
From: rhoded01@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Ahzmandius)
Subject: Funky Combinations
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 10:56:08 -0600 (CST)
I jusr started a new character that doesn't like killing. He has a Defiant
Supershock, a baseball bat (read: club), a Colt Manhunter, and a remmington
Roomsweeper. The roomsweeper is loaded with stun rounds giving a 9S (stun).
I know that the roomsweeper loads flachettes normally and you can't get stun
flechettes, so I concidered the damage as if it was a slug round. Have I
erred in this logic? My character is a phys adept Ork.

BTW: what would the effects of a panther with concussion rounds be, and a
vindicator with stun rounds be? I am also unclear on whether a character can
do less damage to an opponent (so you don't accidentally kill a Lone Star
cop, thus adding to the long list of offenses already accumulating on your
record)?

We are running in Denver......Man, that city really got fragged up (more
than it was) during the Treaty.

Ahzmandius
Message no. 2
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 11:18:01 +0100
Ahzmandius said on 10:56/10 Aug 96...

> I jusr started a new character that doesn't like killing. He has a Defiant
> Supershock, a baseball bat (read: club), a Colt Manhunter, and a remmington
> Roomsweeper. The roomsweeper is loaded with stun rounds giving a 9S (stun).
> I know that the roomsweeper loads flachettes normally and you can't get stun
> flechettes, so I concidered the damage as if it was a slug round. Have I
> erred in this logic? My character is a phys adept Ork.

It nowhere says the Roomsweeper fires only flechette rounds, but it does
say it's a "short-barreled (...) heavy shotgun". What exactly that means
is up to you, but I've ruled in my campaign that it fires Shotgun rounds,
although at a reduced damage -- M instead of S. That would allow you to
load stun ammo into the weapon if you want to.

> BTW: what would the effects of a panther with concussion rounds be, and a
> vindicator with stun rounds be?

The main rules only give one type of assault cannon ammo: explosive. For a
Vindicator, just use the normal rules for gel rounds: -2 Power Level, Stun
damage. That'd make it do 5S Stun with one shot, or 20D Stun with a
15-round burst. And resist it all with Impact armor.

> I am also unclear on whether a character can do less damage to an
> opponent (so you don't accidentally kill a Lone Star cop, thus adding to
> the long list of offenses already accumulating on your record)?

Use the Pulling Punches rules for Fields of Fire.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
They'll tell you you can't have your own way.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
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Message no. 3
From: rhoded01@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Ahzmandius)
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 23:40:40 -0600 (CST)
]>> I am also unclear on whether a character can do less damage to an
>> opponent (so you don't accidentally kill a Lone Star cop, thus adding to
>> the long list of offenses already accumulating on your record)?
>
>Use the Pulling Punches rules for Fields of Fire.
>
Does that work with firearms?
Message no. 4
From: "Sambo" <polan881@******.edu>
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 22:02:43 +0000
> ]>> I am also unclear on whether a character can do less damage to an
> >> opponent (so you don't accidentally kill a Lone Star cop, thus adding to
> >> the long list of offenses already accumulating on your record)?
> >
> >Use the Pulling Punches rules for Fields of Fire.
> >
Ahzmandius wrote?
> Does that work with firearms?

Yes, but at a +4 modifier.



***Sambo***
Message no. 5
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 11:57:40 +0100
Ahzmandius said on 23:40/11 Aug 96...

> ]>> I am also unclear on whether a character can do less damage to an
> >> opponent (so you don't accidentally kill a Lone Star cop, thus adding to
> >> the long list of offenses already accumulating on your record)?
> >
> >Use the Pulling Punches rules for Fields of Fire.
> >
> Does that work with firearms?

Yes, but at a +4 TN modifier instead of the +1 used for melee attacks.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
As far as I'm concerned, time's the state of my jeans.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 6
From: Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 96 12:18:00 PDT
Gurth wrote:
:> BTW: anybody have any Funky combos that they use?

:Flare rounds loaded in a shotgun. Works wonders if you want to set fire
:to something :)

Thermite rounds loaded in a shotgun. Just don't get too attached to the
shotgun, and have plenty of replacement barrels ;}

And don't tell your players about this combo ....

Richard.
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\Food for thought lies in the\Richard_M_Conroy@\Roadkill on the Info \
\depth of an inedible brick. \ccm.ir.intel.com \-rmation SuperHighway\
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Message no. 7
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 00:09:04 -0600
>> ]>> I am also unclear on whether a character can do less damage to an
>> >> opponent (so you don't accidentally kill a Lone Star cop, thus adding to
>> >> the long list of offenses already accumulating on your record)?
>> >
>> >Use the Pulling Punches rules for Fields of Fire.
>> >
>Ahzmandius wrote?
>> Does that work with firearms?
>
>Yes, but at a +4 modifier.
>
>
>
> ***Sambo***


Would thet be like a called shot to a non-vital area, like the target's gun hand? A
sucsessful shot of this kind should have a limit to the ammount of damage it can do.

On a related subject, doe anyone have some guidelines on how to handle damage to weapons.
Message no. 8
From: rogue@*****.fr (Sebastien Andrivet)
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 10:05:17 GMT
["pulling punches" with guns]

That just does not seem possible to me. Since hypervelocity ammunitions
create an hydrostatic shock, and often have a tumbling trajectory, they can
be just as deadly wether you catch one in the arm or in the guts.

Would Paul Adam, who seems to be an expert on all things military, please
clarify this point for us ?

Sebastien Andrivet
rogue@*****.fr
France / Europe
"I'm not gonna try to hit him. I'm gonna try to hit myself. Since my skill
with a staff is so low, I have a good chance of achieving critical failure
and hitting the wrong target, and there's only me and him around. So I
attack him by trying to hit myself".
- Fred
Message no. 9
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 17:34:37 +0100
In message <v01530504ae36079ce6f3@[194.250.185.68]>, Sebastien Andrivet
<rogue@*****.fr> writes
>["pulling punches" with guns]
>
>That just does not seem possible to me. Since hypervelocity ammunitions
>create an hydrostatic shock, and often have a tumbling trajectory, they can
>be just as deadly wether you catch one in the arm or in the guts.

Hydrostatic shock is irrelevant as a wounding mechanism. Ultrasound
treatment for physiotherapy, or lithotriptors breaking up kidney stones,
subject the body to more and higher-powered shock waves than any bullet.

Temporary cavity (the expansion and contraction of tissue after a bullet
passes through) is also over-rated: dramatic shots of its effect on duct
sealant or soap, or slow-motion footage of ballistic gelatin being hit
by a rifle bullet, suggest incredible damage, but unless a reasonably
solid organ (the liver, mostly) is hit, temporary cavitation does little
real damage.

Also, _all_ spitzer-type (i.e. long, thin rifle-type) bullets tumble
when they hit: their natural inclination is to travel base-first, and
while in air their spin stabilises them, in denser media (like a person)
they flip ends, still spinning about their axis, and thus cutting a very
severe wound track. Modern rifle bullets (e.g. the M855 ball) are
designed to begin yawing almost on impact: older ones would travel a
foot or more before yaw began.

If a bullet tumbles in flight, though, accuracy goes out of the window.
Ballisticians work hard to prevent that from happening.

The old myth of the "Viet Cong shot in the hand who died of shock" is
just that, a myth. If a body _was_ found with a wound in the hand and
nothing else, I'd suspect cardiac arrest from the fear of the firefight,
not some mystical shockwave.


However, a bullet wound to the thigh (say) is still nothing to laugh
about. If the bullet hits the femoral artery, directly or indirectly,
the target will bleed to death in about ten seconds. That includes a hit
on the femur (thigh bone) causing the artery to be cut by bone
fragments. There are some relatively major blood vessels in the arm,
too, and you could suffer severe injury or death if the brachial artery
were to spring a leak.

FWIW, there is no such thing in the British Army or police as "shooting
to wound". Discharging a firearm, aimed at another person, is intent to
kill, whether you shot for their head or their foot.

That's all real-life stuff, anyway. How, or whether, people want to fit
it into their games is another matter.

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 10
From: "Thomas Holmes" <Thomas.A.Holmes-1@**.umn.edu>
Subject: RE: Funky Combinations
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:25:17
Just as a reality check, policemen die from getting shot in the hand and
foot, both from shock and from hydrostatic shock causing the heart to stop.
There is no such thing as a non-vital area, only less-vital areas.

Thomas
Message no. 11
From: rhoded01@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Ahzmandius)
Subject: RE: Funky Combinations
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 19:20:21 -0600 (CST)
>Just as a reality check, policemen die from getting shot in the hand and
>foot, both from shock and from hydrostatic shock causing the heart to stop.
>There is no such thing as a non-vital area, only less-vital areas.
>
>Thomas
>
Sounds like a Body attribute rating problem. I was shot in the chest with a
.25 cal pistol. I guess that maybe hydrostatic shock from a .25 at about 3ft
isn't that high. For game purposes, HS is irrelevent.
Message no. 12
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 22:26:34 +0100
In message <3210df2661f0157@*****.tc.umn.edu>, Thomas Holmes
<Thomas.A.Holmes-1@**.umn.edu> writes
>Just as a reality check, policemen die from getting shot in the hand and
>foot, both from shock and from hydrostatic shock causing the heart to stop.
>There is no such thing as a non-vital area, only less-vital areas.

"Hydrostatic shock causing the heart to stop"?

I'd really like a source for this. Kidney stones are treated with a
device called a lithotriptor, which applies hydrostatic shock to the
abdomen. These break up the kidney stone into smaller fragments which
can be passed normally.

Each shockwave is ten or more times the amplitude of the hydrostatic
shockwave produced by a 7.62mm NATO bullet fired from close range. A
typical treatment session is two thousand such pulses.

Not many heart attacks, though.

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 13
From: Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 96 13:25:00 PDT
Here's something I just got off the net, might sort out this argument
for once...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Temporary Digression While I Ride One Of My Hobby Horses:
or,
A Short Disquisition On The Bullet's Killing Mechanism


Part I: "Energy Dumping" Is A Myth

Let me state right here and now that there are two terms you're going to
hear that have no meaning.If you haven't heard them yet, you will, if
you spend any time at all on a shooting range or hanging around the
wiseacres in gun shops. Both refer to popular myths among shooters about
how a bullet kills, and are based on thorough misunderstanding of
ballisitics and biology.

"Hydrostatic shock" is the idea that a bullet kills by setting up a
"shock wave" in the incompressible water of which an animal's body is
largely composed. "Energy dumping" is the concept that if a bullet stops
within an animal, it will kill more effectively than one that goes
through and exits, since it "releases its entire amount of energy within
the body."

As intuitively appealing as these notions are, the fact is that a bullet
kills the same way any other agent of penetrating trauma does. A bullet
may act faster than a knife or an arrow, but like them it kills either:
1) by causing a rapid loss of blood pressure, depriving the central
nervous system of oxygen; or 2) by physically interfering with nerve
pathways; or 3) both.

The False Reasoning Behind The "Energy Dumping" Fallacy

The bullet does indeed have a good deal of kinetic energy, and the
faster it's moving the more it has, of course. In the USA bullet energy
levels are rated in "foot-pounds", a relatively obscure unit implying
the amount of energy needed to move one pound of weight one foot.

European countries use the much more sensible metric system, and in this
system the energy unit is the "joule". While both these units refer to
energy of movement, the joule has the advantage that it can easily be
converted to units used to measure heat. One joule is equivalent to 4.1
calories, the calorie being a unit of heat. Specifically, one calorie is
the amount of heat needed to raise one gram of water one degree Celsius.
(The comparable unit in the US system is the BTU, but converting
foot-pounds to BTU's is not so straightforward as converting joules to
calories.)

A bullet fired from a reasonably powerful handgun, say a hot 9mm
Parabellum load, has an energy level of perhaps 500 joules at the
muzzle.

So why do I care about converting muzzle energy figures into heat?
Because if a bullet is stopped in its target, that's exactly what
happens: its residual kinetic energy is, in fact released (or, as the
wiseacres have it, "dumped") into the animal's body; but it's released
as heat, in accordance with the laws of thermodynamics. (This is the
reason why your car's brakes heat up when you stop: that energy can't be
destroyed, it can only be converted to another form, and the "defaut" is
to convert it to heat.)

The amount of heat liberated by stopping a bullet is surprisingly small:
500 joules works out to be about 106 calories. That would be enough to
raise 106 grams (about a quarter of a pound) of water one degree Celsius
(about 1.8 degrees Fahrenheit). That's not all that much, especially
when compared to the size of animal it has to be "dumped" into.

A man is a pretty large animal (about the size of a deer) and 500 joules
(or 106 calories) of energy diffused through the body of a 150-pound
(68,100 gram) human would not suffice to raise his body temperature even
one hundreth of a degree. And that is a maximum amount, which assumes
the bullet is stopped and that the shot was fired at point-blank range.
To have a noticeable effect on tissue temperature you would have to
"dump" a great deal more energy than 500 or so joules: the amount of
heat liberated even by the biggest and baddest bullet available is very
far below the capacity of the body's water to absorb it. It should be
obvious, then, that the theory of "energy dumping" is based on an
exaggerated idea of how much energy a bullet actually has, and is
meaningless as a part of the killing mechanism.

Believers in the "energy dumping" theory never seem to have an adequate
explanation for the fact that there are many, many gunshot victims are
still walking around with bullets that "dumped" all their energy, and
are still inside the victims. Many people with such retained bullets
received them at close range from large-caliber guns, and were therefore
the unlucky recipients of lots of "dumped" energy, but they are still
alive. The answer, however, is really very simple: they are still alive
because they were lucky enough not to have received a hit in a vital
area.


Part II: "Hydrostatic Shock" Is An Even Bigger Myth

Proponents of the "hydrostatic shock" theory usually argue that animals
are composed largely of water, and therefore a bullet causes a "shock
wave" to be set up in them, which causes displacementof organs, and
rupture of tissues. Their belief in this concept is bolstered by the
spectacular splashesthat expanding bullets make when fired into plastic
milk jugs filled with water: they imagine thatsomething of the same
thing happens in an animal body. They are wrong.

First, animals aren't jugs of water, and don't resemble jugs of water in
the least. Animals don't have uniform internal density, and the response
of muscle to a bullet is very different than that of, say, the bones or
the lungs. At the microscopic level, animals are actually very
compartmentalized, and there is almost no "free" water (or any other
liquid) to constitute a homogeneous medium in which a "shock wave" can
be propagated for more than few millimeters. About the only places where
large quantities of fluids are found sloshing around are in the spleen
and liver, both of which contain sizeable volumes of "loose" blood.

Second, it has been demonstrated quite conclusively that most body
tissues are very tolerant of momentary deformation and quite resilient.
Unless a bullet physically cuts a blood vessel or nerve, little more
than localized damage is done by its passage.

It is true that in passing through, a bullet does form a so-called
"temporary wound cavity" of considerable size, which lasts for
milliseconds. Inside this volume a "shock wave" does form, and it
even displaces some organs. But the effect of the temporary wound cavity
is small, and most tissues and organs resist this very brief
deformation. There is certainly no possibility--as you will frequently
be told by ignorant gunshop clerks--that you can "...hit a man in the
arm and the shock will travel through the blood to his brain and kill
him..." Blood is carried in blood vessels, and those vessels are
tough. Anyone who has dissected a freshly-dead animal will testify to
the strength of an artery: it takes a good deal of force to rupture one,
and physical displacement for a few milliseconds isn't enough. It's
perfectly possible to displace an artery by several inches permanently
with no loss of function. To do significant damage the artery has
actually to be hit by the bullet, preferably by the sharp edges of the
expanded outer jacket, which will cut it.

Furthermore, there is no way the "shock wave" could "travel through the
blood" because the design of the system is such that a) it permits only
one-way flow; and 2) it dampens pressure oscillations of considerable
magnitude. Arteries that carry blood to the body are very muscular
structures and designed to resist considerable heads of pressure lest
they burst. And as they get smaller and smaller, ramifying to all the
organs, the resistance to flow increases greatly. Even if you were to
set up a significant "shock wave" locally, it wouldn't get very far in
the system before the increasing resistance to its passage would dampen
it out completely.

The True Believers in the "hydrostatic shock" myth often point to the
messy soup found inside the chest of deer hit in the lungs as "proof"
they are right. But they are really pointing to a major hole in their
argument. There isn't any "free" blood in the chest of any mammal: like
blood elsewhere, it's in blood vessels.

The lungs are a sort of enormous capillary bed, with millions of small
blood vessels lying between the gas-exchange surfaces. Most of the
volume of the chest is air. The vast quantities of blood found in
the chest cavity of a lung-shot animal weren't there when the shot was
fired. The free blood found in the chest after a shooting got there
because the bullet damaged the blood vessels running through the
area.

An expanding bullet does a fearful amount of damage to the extremely
delicate tissue of the lungs, but this region also includes major blood
vessels (the aorta and pulmonary artery, to name two) which are usually
damaged as well. These pour enormous quantities of blood into the
thoracic cavity when they're ruptured. Contraction of the body
musculature and the pumping of the heart (if it too isn't hit) will
assure this. The blood in the chest cavity is the result of the damage,
not the cause of it, and the "shock wave" isn't propagated through it at
all.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't know who wrote it (didn't have time to check), but this document
is used without permission, all original work is the sole property of
the author.

Richard.
O--------------------------------------------------------------------O
\Food for thought lies in the\Richard_M_Conroy@\Roadkill on the Info \
\depth of an inedible brick. \ccm.ir.intel.com \-rmation SuperHighway\
O-------------------------------------------------------------------O
Message no. 14
From: Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 96 10:27:00 PDT
:>Just as a reality check, policemen die from getting shot in the hand
:>and foot, both from shock and from hydrostatic shock causing the heart
:>to stop. There is no such thing as a non-vital area, only less-vital
:>areas.
:>
:>Thomas
:>

I think people should check out the FBI statistics on all those gun
related homicides and stuff, there's actually documented cases of Police
officers dying from getting shot in the foot from small calibre rounds
and such, not to mention cases of people getting shot 20+ times and
still running away (died later, perp vs roadblock), a person taking a
shotgun slug through the heart who fought on for over a minute etc. etc.

I'm not well versed enough in the areas of traumatology & hydrostatic
shock to venture an opinion in this thread, but I'm not so sure as to
write off HS shock completely. The only thing definate in ballistics as
a sure kill is a CNS hit (brain/spine).

:Sounds like a Body attribute rating problem. I was shot in the chest
:with a .25 cal pistol. I guess that maybe hydrostatic shock from a .25
:at about 3ft isn't that high. For game purposes, HS is irrelevent.

I don't think that a .25 pistol has enough Kinetic Energy to cause
Hydrostatic Shock, which is really a property of large calibre/high
velocity munitions.

A mate of mine managed to shoot himself in the hand with a pistol of
similar calibre (possibly a .22). The bullet bounced off the base of his
hand (the heel?) and embedded itself in a radiator, he has it as a
keyring now... At the time it hurt lots and there was a good deal of
blood, but he wasn't exactly collapsing (he recovered the bullet
himself).

To effectuate an immediate fatal chest wound you need to be pretty
accurate, spine or heart really (I'm not talking lower abdomen here).
The most likely wound is a punctured lung (sucking chest wound), which
will only really slow someone down, and will take time to kill them
(asphyxiation, due to the combined effects of lost blood & reduced
breathing capability.

It might be a good idea to get some input from the rec.guns crowd on
this one...

Richard.
O--------------------------------------------------------------------O
\Food for thought lies in the\Richard_M_Conroy@\Roadkill on the Info \
\depth of an inedible brick. \ccm.ir.intel.com \-rmation SuperHighway\
O-------------------------------------------------------------------O
Message no. 15
From: rhoded01@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Ahzmandius)
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:23:26 -0600 (CST)
>In message <3210df2661f0157@*****.tc.umn.edu>, Thomas Holmes
><Thomas.A.Holmes-1@**.umn.edu> writes
>>Just as a reality check, policemen die from getting shot in the hand and
>>foot, both from shock and from hydrostatic shock causing the heart to stop.
>>There is no such thing as a non-vital area, only less-vital areas.
>
>"Hydrostatic shock causing the heart to stop"?
>
>I'd really like a source for this.

A good example is when hunting rabbits with a bow. One uses feield tips with
the point sawn off. It is like getting hit with a tree trunk travelling at
80+mph. Another example is the Dim-mok. A killing blow that causes a deep
penitrating shock wave that disrupts the rhythem of the circulatory system,
ie the heart. This type of blow kills more often than records would show. A
9mm won't do this, but (as if it matters) a .44 mag will.


Ahz
Message no. 16
From: "Sambo" <polan881@******.edu>
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 13:01:05 +0000
> >In message <3210df2661f0157@*****.tc.umn.edu>, Thomas Holmes
> ><Thomas.A.Holmes-1@**.umn.edu> writes
> >>Just as a reality check, policemen die from getting shot in the hand and
> >>foot, both from shock and from hydrostatic shock causing the heart to stop.
> >>There is no such thing as a non-vital area, only less-vital areas.
> >
> >"Hydrostatic shock causing the heart to stop"?
> >
> >I'd really like a source for this.
>
> A good example is when hunting rabbits with a bow. One uses feield tips with
> the point sawn off. It is like getting hit with a tree trunk travelling at
> 80+mph. Another example is the Dim-mok. A killing blow that causes a deep
> penitrating shock wave that disrupts the rhythem of the circulatory system,
> ie the heart. This type of blow kills more often than records would show. A
> 9mm won't do this, but (as if it matters) a .44 mag will.
>
>
> Ahz

A police officer wearing a balistic vest can be killed if he is hit
in the chest with a bullet, the bullet doesn't even need to penetrate
the vest. This can happen if the heart is full of blood and getting
ready to pump. The pressure from the bullet hitting the sternum can
cause the heart to burst. A "Trauma Plate" can reduce the risk of
this happening, it diffuses the force of the impact even more. This
isn't very common but it can happen.
***Sambo***
Message no. 17
From: "Sambo" <polan881@******.edu>
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 13:01:05 +0000
> Here's something I just got off the net, might sort out this argument
> for once...
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> A Temporary Digression While I Ride One Of My Hobby Horses:
> or,
> A Short Disquisition On The Bullet's Killing Mechanism

Excellent thesis, I agree with it 100%.

-Sam
Message no. 18
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:03:11 -0600 (MDT)
Sambo wrote:
|
|A police officer wearing a balistic vest can be killed if he is hit
|in the chest with a bullet, the bullet doesn't even need to penetrate
|the vest. This can happen if the heart is full of blood and getting
|ready to pump. The pressure from the bullet hitting the sternum can
|cause the heart to burst. A "Trauma Plate" can reduce the risk of
|this happening, it diffuses the force of the impact even more. This
|isn't very common but it can happen.
| ***Sambo***

Something similar happened to an Italian(?) hockey player.
He got hit in the chest at just the right moment and it
disrupted the rhythm of his heart. His heart stopped and
he died (could not be recusitated). This had nothing to do
with hydrostatic shock, just bad timing.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 19
From: rhoded01@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Ahzmandius)
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:18:50 -0600 (CST)
>Here's something I just got off the net, might sort out this argument
>for once...
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>A Temporary Digression While I Ride One Of My Hobby Horses:
> or,
>A Short Disquisition On The Bullet's Killing Mechanism
>
>
> Part I: "Energy Dumping" Is A Myth
<SNIP!!!!! Cutting to response>

I am aware of the flawed logic behind the article. I accept that as the
typical standardized answer, but the fact that we know surprisingly little
about the human body often leads to this type of answer. Now I have a few
points, so please, be patient:

1) In martial arts, we often talk about the Chi or Ki, the energy force that
powers the body (or something like that)....Where is that held? Can it be
measured?

2) Dim-mok (or death blow) can kill, irrefutibly. How does it do that?
Either trauma to the nervous system, or buy cause a deep shock to a major
organ, ie. the heart. Ain't that hydrowhatever shock?

3) If you get hit in the chest with a tree trunk that is flying at mach
1....what does that feel like? When a person gets shot in the chest with a
shotgun slug, how does that feel? Has anybody actually measured the damage
done to a(living) human body that is getting hit by a bullet?

4) Explain why a kid who get kicked in the arm in 1986 dies of a heart attack?

5) Does anyone understand nervous system overload and how that can cause death?


Thanks. If these questions can be answered, then the article can be
discussed better.

Ahzmandius
Message no. 20
From: "Thomas Holmes" <Thomas.A.Holmes-1@**.umn.edu>
Subject: RE: Funky Combinations
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:22:27
Richard has come up with a convincing argument, I haven't been able to
find anything on the net about gunshot wounds except for the following:
~50% of all wounds are to the extremities, wounds to the extremeties are
less likely to cause death or serious injury than wounds to the head and
torso. Not terribly helpful statistics. There are some excellent resources
about victem help however.
Most all my knowledge comes from a few military courses and a bunch of
gossip from friends; military, police and civilian. Written sources vary
according to the author ... anybody else out there wanna look for some hard
data? I'm going to try a hard library when I work up the energy(honest).
Make sure you get some names too so we can compare reliability of
information.
If you couldn't care less, I appologise.

Thomas
Message no. 21
From: Marc Lipshitz <MLIPSHIT@****.CO.ZA>
Subject: RE: Funky Combinations -Reply
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:21:21 +0200
>>> Thomas Holmes <Thomas.A.Holmes-1@**.umn.edu> 19/August/1996
06:22pm >>>
find anything on the net about gunshot wounds except for the following:
~50% of all wounds are to the extremities, wounds to the extremeties are
less likely to cause death or serious injury than wounds to the head and
torso. Not terribly helpful statistics. There are some excellent resources
about victem help however.
Most all my knowledge comes from a few military courses and a
bunch of gossip from friends; military, police and civilian. Written sources
vary according to the author ... anybody else out there wanna look for
some hard data? I'm going to try a hard library when I work up the
energy(honest). Make sure you get some names too so we can compare
reliability of information.
If you couldn't care less, I appologise.
****************************************************************************************

Hmm, I have a couisin who is an anaethetist at Baragwanath hospital
here in Johannesburg. They see about 100 bullet wounds in a weekend,
and he gets to anaethetise many of them. According to him hydrostatic
shock is virtually a non-existant factor, more damaging is the dirt and
residue dragged behind a high velocity round, which if not properly
cleared will cause infection. Also, unless the person dies before he
reaches hospital there is a 90% survival rate from gunshot victims. The
chances of a person dying from a wound in an extremity are very low,
unless a major artery is hit, such as the femoral in the leg.

For those of you who think I am exaggerating about Baragwanath
Hospital, a quote which is quite famous amongst the doctors there:
Visiting guest surgeon from Israel " In one weekend I saw more bullet
wounds than I did in three wars."
Marc Lipshitz
Message no. 22
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 03:50:25 -0400 (EDT)
On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Ahzmandius wrote:

> I am aware of the flawed logic behind the article. I accept that as the
> typical standardized answer, but the fact that we know surprisingly little
> about the human body often leads to this type of answer. Now I have a few
> points, so please, be patient:
>
> 1) In martial arts, we often talk about the Chi or Ki, the energy force that
> powers the body (or something like that)....Where is that held? Can it be
> measured?

Provided you believe some of the overly pseudo-mystical tripe
that many sensei are willing to sell you, you could ask this question.
Call me doubting Thomas, but I've studied martial arts for nearly 15
years now, and I have yet to see "Chi" that is anything more than a good
psych-ploy used against the opponent or the advanced application of
physics.
Personal pet peeve here (and I'm sorry if I offend your art or
discipline). Too many people are looking for the overly spiritual side
of martial arts, and too much faith is put in them. While I won't
outright deny that they exist, I feel that too much weight is given to
the esoterica of martial arts. People are like, "Oooh! Wow! His ki must
really be focussed to be able to do *that*." And all too often, it's
purely ignorance on the part of the observer that leads them to this
conclusion.
Yes, there is a spiritual side to many martial arts, but it
doesn't necessarily have to be a mystical energy flowing through the body
of the practitioner. To use "disruption of chi" as a reason for a bullet
killing someone is verging on silly, no offense.
It occurs to me that this last sounds pretty hostile, and it's
not intended to. If anyone wishes to pursue this topic further, discuss
martial arts philosophies and practicum, or just inform me as to how I'm
totally full of shit and why, please contact me via private e-mail.

> 2) Dim-mok (or death blow) can kill, irrefutibly. How does it do that?
> Either trauma to the nervous system, or buy cause a deep shock to a major
> organ, ie. the heart. Ain't that hydrowhatever shock?

The explanation for this could *be* the same reason you give as
reason #5. Nobody knows what far-ranging effects neural-system damage
can have. Are you subjecting organs to hydrostatic shock, or are you
merely confusing or halting necessary nerve-impulses? It is notable that
most instantly lethal techniques involve severe neurological damage (as
in severing the spinal column, creasing the brainpan, etc). Causing
hydrostatic shock directly to an organ would seem difficult as most vital
organs are protected from from such damage by a variety of means.

> 3) If you get hit in the chest with a tree trunk that is flying at mach
> 1....what does that feel like? When a person gets shot in the chest with a
> shotgun slug, how does that feel? Has anybody actually measured the damage
> done to a(living) human body that is getting hit by a bullet?

Yup. The military invest a pretty serious amount of time and
effort into determining the extent of damage that a bullet will inflict
on a living target. While we can always hope that they're not using
human test subjects, with the military, we can never be certain... ;)

> 4) Explain why a kid who get kicked in the arm in 1986 dies of a heart
> attack?

Dislodged chip of bone or loosened blood-clot moving into coronary
chamber, clogged artery leading to cardiac arrhytmia/arrest, neurological
damage (unlikely, but hey). How can the doctors isolate the cause of
death to getting kicked in the arm a decade ago? If they can't, then
it's probably a pretty good bet that that wasn't the cause. If they can,
then they already know how it happened and you should be asking them instead
of us. :)

> 5) Does anyone understand nervous system overload and how that can
> cause death?

Not really, no. I fully agree with you that until we know more
about how the nervous system (and especially the brain itself) works both
as a separate entity and in conjuction with other bodily functions, we
may never really know the answers to these questions.
Having said that, we *do* know some things about the way bullets
work when fired into the human body. We have over two centuries of
medical records, practical experience, and good ol' trial and error with
such incidences, and numerous studies have been conducted. Some
principles have been proven (wound cavities, lateral tissue expansion)
and some have been disproven (hydrostatic shock). But there are a lot
of questions still unanswered. I can't offer solutions, as I'm not in a
position to conduct the necessary experiments (heh). What I *do* know
is that I'll take hot-loaded Black Talons in my Beretta 92FS any day of the
week if I'm going to be leisurely capping gangers on a Sunday
afternoon. :)

Marc
Message no. 23
From: rhoded01@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Ahzmandius)
Subject: RE: Funky Combinations
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:34:51 -0600 (CST)
>find anything on the net about gunshot wounds except for the following:
>~50% of all wounds are to the extremities, wounds to the extremeties are
>less likely to cause death or serious injury than wounds to the head and
>torso. Not terribly helpful statistics. There are some excellent resources
>about victem help however.
> Most all my knowledge comes from a few military courses and a bunch of
>gossip from friends; military, police and civilian. Written sources vary
>according to the author ... anybody else out there wanna look for some hard
>data? I'm going to try a hard library when I work up the energy(honest).
>Make sure you get some names too so we can compare reliability of
>information.
> If you couldn't care less, I appologise.
>
>Thomas
>
Shotguns are for close quarters. 00 buckshot will kill, slugs even better.
My experience is first-hand. A full choke on a 12 ga. at 5 m will have a
spread of approx 6".
Message no. 24
From: rhoded01@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Ahzmandius)
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:35:01 -0600 (CST)
>
>
>On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Ahzmandius wrote:
>
>> I am aware of the flawed logic behind the article. I accept that as the
>> typical standardized answer, but the fact that we know surprisingly little
>> about the human body often leads to this type of answer. Now I have a few
>> points, so please, be patient:
>>
>> 1) In martial arts, we often talk about the Chi or Ki, the energy force that
>> powers the body (or something like that)....Where is that held? Can it be
>> measured?
>
> Provided you believe some of the overly pseudo-mystical tripe
>that many sensei are willing to sell you, you could ask this question.
>Call me doubting Thomas, but I've studied martial arts for nearly 15
>years now, and I have yet to see "Chi" that is anything more than a good
>psych-ploy used against the opponent or the advanced application of
>physics.
> Personal pet peeve here (and I'm sorry if I offend your art or
>discipline). Too many people are looking for the overly spiritual side
>of martial arts, and too much faith is put in them. While I won't
>outright deny that they exist, I feel that too much weight is given to
>the esoterica of martial arts. People are like, "Oooh! Wow! His ki must
>really be focussed to be able to do *that*." And all too often, it's
>purely ignorance on the part of the observer that leads them to this
>conclusion.
> Yes, there is a spiritual side to many martial arts, but it
>doesn't necessarily have to be a mystical energy flowing through the body
>of the practitioner. To use "disruption of chi" as a reason for a bullet
>killing someone is verging on silly, no offense.
> It occurs to me that this last sounds pretty hostile, and it's
>not intended to. If anyone wishes to pursue this topic further, discuss
>martial arts philosophies and practicum, or just inform me as to how I'm
>totally full of shit and why, please contact me via private e-mail.
>
>> 2) Dim-mok (or death blow) can kill, irrefutibly. How does it do that?
>> Either trauma to the nervous system, or buy cause a deep shock to a major
>> organ, ie. the heart. Ain't that hydrowhatever shock?
>
> The explanation for this could *be* the same reason you give as
>reason #5. Nobody knows what far-ranging effects neural-system damage
>can have. Are you subjecting organs to hydrostatic shock, or are you
>merely confusing or halting necessary nerve-impulses? It is notable that
>most instantly lethal techniques involve severe neurological damage (as
>in severing the spinal column, creasing the brainpan, etc). Causing
>hydrostatic shock directly to an organ would seem difficult as most vital
>organs are protected from from such damage by a variety of means.
>
>> 3) If you get hit in the chest with a tree trunk that is flying at mach
>> 1....what does that feel like? When a person gets shot in the chest with a
>> shotgun slug, how does that feel? Has anybody actually measured the damage
>> done to a(living) human body that is getting hit by a bullet?
>
> Yup. The military invest a pretty serious amount of time and
>effort into determining the extent of damage that a bullet will inflict
>on a living target. While we can always hope that they're not using
>human test subjects, with the military, we can never be certain... ;)
>
>> 4) Explain why a kid who get kicked in the arm in 1986 dies of a heart
>> attack?
>
> Dislodged chip of bone or loosened blood-clot moving into coronary
>chamber, clogged artery leading to cardiac arrhytmia/arrest, neurological
>damage (unlikely, but hey). How can the doctors isolate the cause of
>death to getting kicked in the arm a decade ago? If they can't, then
>it's probably a pretty good bet that that wasn't the cause. If they can,
>then they already know how it happened and you should be asking them instead
>of us. :)
>
>> 5) Does anyone understand nervous system overload and how that can
>> cause death?
>
> Not really, no. I fully agree with you that until we know more
>about how the nervous system (and especially the brain itself) works both
>as a separate entity and in conjuction with other bodily functions, we
>may never really know the answers to these questions.
> Having said that, we *do* know some things about the way bullets
>work when fired into the human body. We have over two centuries of
>medical records, practical experience, and good ol' trial and error with
>such incidences, and numerous studies have been conducted. Some
>principles have been proven (wound cavities, lateral tissue expansion)
>and some have been disproven (hydrostatic shock). But there are a lot
>of questions still unanswered. I can't offer solutions, as I'm not in a
>position to conduct the necessary experiments (heh). What I *do* know
>is that I'll take hot-loaded Black Talons in my Beretta 92FS any day of the
>week if I'm going to be leisurely capping gangers on a Sunday
>afternoon. :)
>
>Marc
>
>
That was one of the most intelligent responses that I have receieved on this
list yet. I don't take any of it as hostile, just another view. Thank you.

Ahz
Message no. 25
From: Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 09:48:00 PDT
Ahz wrote:

:I am aware of the flawed logic behind the article. I accept that as the
:typical standardized answer, but the fact that we know surprisingly
:littleabout the human body often leads to this type of answer. Now I
:have a few points, so please, be patient:

Ok, No flames... ;}

:1) In martial arts, we often talk about the Chi or Ki, the energy force
:that powers the body (or something like that)....Where is that held?
:Can it be measured?

These are factors of Holistic medicine, which are never taken into
account in almost any discussion of gun-related injury or death. Any
answers on this topic would be highly speculative and completely
uneducated.

:2) Dim-mok (or death blow) can kill, irrefutibly. How does it do that?
:Either trauma to the nervous system, or buy cause a deep shock to a
:major organ, ie. the heart. Ain't that hydrowhatever shock?

FACT: you can deliver more energy with a punch than with a bullet. ANd a
martial artist can deliver a lot more energy with HIS punch than you can
with yours, to a particularly sensitive area which is more vulnerable to
blows (neck, temple etc.)

No, this is not hydrostatic shock either.

:3) If you get hit in the chest with a tree trunk that is flying at mach
:1....what does that feel like? When a person gets shot in the chest
:with a shotgun slug, how does that feel? Has anybody actually measured
:the damage done to a(living) human body that is getting hit by a
:bullet?

You're talking roleplaying terms here ("damage"). All deaths occur due
to lack of oxygen getting to the brain. This may occur through many
means along the lines of: blood loss (due to injury & bleeding), heart
stopping (heart damaged, nerves controlling heart damaged, swamped, or
whatever), or lack of oxygen in the blood (asphixiation etc.).

A person dies when these situations occur. The job of guns is to bring
these situations about. Which is entirely dependant on where the bullets
hit. Damage is a roleplaying mechanism to describe average effects.

:4) Explain why a kid who get kicked in the arm in 1986 dies of a heart
:attack?

:5) Does anyone understand nervous system overload and how that can
:cause death?

Both related. Extreme pain can flood nerve signals, particularly the
ones that control the heart, causing a heart attack. Neither of these
are hydrostatic shock, but are probably symtomatic of nerve tissue
damage or extreme pain, and yes this applies to that kid who got kicked
in the arm. It happened to me when I was 17, hurt so bad my vision went
black & white.

:Thanks. If these questions can be answered, then the article can be
:discussed better.

I've noticed in this thread that people seem to be confusing Hydrostatic
Shock and Shock Trauma. HS was described pretty well in the article.
Shock Trauma occurs when the body recognises that it has been injured,
and so it diverts blood away from non-critical areas (skin, limbs) to
the major organs. People faint etc. that's what's meant by people going
into shock. Beyond this my knowledge gets a bit loose, so I can't
properly describe people getting killed by shock (particularly when
there's about 3 different types being discussed here).

:Ahzmandius

Richard.
O--------------------------------------------------------------------O
\Food for thought lies in the\Richard_M_Conroy@\Roadkill on the Info \
\depth of an inedible brick. \ccm.ir.intel.com \-rmation SuperHighway\
O-------------------------------------------------------------------O
Message no. 26
From: Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 15:45:00 PDT
There's another article on the web about the nature of ballistics and
bullet wounds. It's at:

http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Fackler/wrong.html

Richard.
O--------------------------------------------------------------------O
\Food for thought lies in the\Richard_M_Conroy@\Roadkill on the Info \
\depth of an inedible brick. \ccm.ir.intel.com \-rmation SuperHighway\
O-------------------------------------------------------------------O
Message no. 27
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:29:56 +0100
In message <01I8GWTKIZRG0000IA@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU>, Ahzmandius
<rhoded01@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU> writes
>I am aware of the flawed logic behind the article. I accept that as the
>typical standardized answer, but the fact that we know surprisingly little
>about the human body often leads to this type of answer. Now I have a few
>points, so please, be patient:
>
>1) In martial arts, we often talk about the Chi or Ki, the energy force that
>powers the body (or something like that)....Where is that held? Can it be
>measured?

Pass. I've very little experience of it.

>2) Dim-mok (or death blow) can kill, irrefutibly. How does it do that?
>Either trauma to the nervous system, or buy cause a deep shock to a major
>organ, ie. the heart. Ain't that hydrowhatever shock?

No. Typically I'd guess nerve injury, shutting down (for instance) the
heart. Occasional cases of chest injury causing cardiac failure aren't
unknown.

>3) If you get hit in the chest with a tree trunk that is flying at mach
>1....what does that feel like?

If it happens and I survive, I'll let you know :) Seriously, I'd say it
would be lethal. Smashed ribs and suffocation, at the least.

>When a person gets shot in the chest with a
>shotgun slug, how does that feel? Has anybody actually measured the damage
>done to a(living) human body that is getting hit by a bullet?

Frequently. Dr Martin Fackler got through a lot of large pigs in the
1980s using them to test ballistics theories: they're very good
simulants for humans.
>
>4) Explain why a kid who get kicked in the arm in 1986 dies of a heart attack?

No idea, but I've been kicked lots of places and haven't had a heart
attack. There are cases of people having heart attacks from scary
moments in movies... maybe it was just surprise and fear?

>5) Does anyone understand nervous system overload and how that can cause death?

Nope.


--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 28
From: rogue@*****.fr (Sebastien Andrivet)
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 18:51:39 GMT
Ahz wrote :
>
>1) In martial arts, we often talk about the Chi or Ki, the energy force that
>powers the body (or something like that)....Where is that held? Can it be
>measured?

AFAIK, modern Western medicine does not have a notion approaching chi.
Trying to define chi in Western, scientifical terms is, as of now, a bit of
a nonsense as of now.

>2) Dim-mok (or death blow) can kill, irrefutibly. How does it do that?
>Either trauma to the nervous system, or buy cause a deep shock to a major
>organ, ie. the heart. Ain't that hydrowhatever shock?

Disruption of the chi flow (well, that's how it's originally explained)
that makes the body not want to work, if I might dare such a simplicti
notion. It's far more a matter of energy than a matter of physiology.

>3) If you get hit in the chest with a tree trunk that is flying at mach
>1....what does that feel like? When a person gets shot in the chest with a
>shotgun slug, how does that feel? Has anybody actually measured the damage
>done to a(living) human body that is getting hit by a bullet?

I'm quite afraid there is no way to measure damage as such. You could
measure energy dump, but as the article mentionned, it's not really what
inflicts damage. Damage to the body depends on the shock of being hit,
blood loss, tissue trauma...


Sebastien Andrivet
rogue@*****.fr
France / Europe
"Time for some premedidated self-defense".
- Greg Porter
Message no. 29
From: PDL@****.dacom.co.kr
Subject: Re: Funky Combinations
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 20:53:37 PDT
---------------Original Message---------------
> 1) In martial arts, we often talk about the Chi or Ki, the energy force that
> powers the body (or something like that)....Where is that held? Can it be
> measured?

Yes, there is a spiritual side to many martial arts, but it doesn't necessarily have to
be a mystical energy flowing through the body of the practitioner.

Marc
---------End of Original Message----------
Chi or Ki is the power that holds the universe together. can
it be measured, I don't know can you measure the amount of
energy in the universe?

This energy is the basis of many beliefs in Asian life. While
you can have martial arts without this energy, you can not have
many belief systems without it. In shadowrun, the ability to
tap this energy may be the reasons that adepts can do the
things they can do.

Patrick
Message no. 30
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: RE: Funky Combinations -Reply
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:07:36 +0000
On 20 Aug 96 at 8:21, Marc Lipshitz wrote:
> For those of you who think I am exaggerating about Baragwanath
> Hospital, a quote which is quite famous amongst the doctors there:
> Visiting guest surgeon from Israel " In one weekend I saw more bullet
> wounds than I did in three wars."
Just to be sure, I can back Marc here (although I never even got ner South
Africa (or Africa)). I used to work with a doc in a hospital who was from
Johannisburg, and from what he told me, a hundred gunwounds mightg even be a
low guess (hm... or he was exaggerating :-). Oh, guess what? He did talk about
going back although the pay would be lower, 'cause "here it's boring".

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 31
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: RE: Funky Combinations -Reply
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:40:02 GMT + 2:00
@ > For those of you who think I am exaggerating about Baragwanath
@ > Hospital, a quote which is quite famous amongst the doctors there:
@ > Visiting guest surgeon from Israel " In one weekend I saw more bullet
@ > wounds than I did in three wars."
@ Just to be sure, I can back Marc here (although I never even got ner South
@ Africa (or Africa)). I used to work with a doc in a hospital who was from
@ Johannisburg, and from what he told me, a hundred gunwounds mightg even be a
@
@ low guess (hm... or he was exaggerating :-). Oh, guess what? He did talk abou
@ t
@ going back although the pay would be lower, 'cause "here it's boring".

And I'll add even more confirmation. My sister works at the JHB
General, Casulty ward. I've lost track of the number of times that my
sister has been recalled to the hospital on account of this or that
march could turn bloody hence the hospital goes onto general alert.
(And yes my sister does accationally work at Baragawnith)



Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to face the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.

Further Reading

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