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Message no. 1
From: Zixx t_berghoff@*********.netsurf.de
Subject: Future Weapons (was: Re: SR Future Products and Such)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:08:30 +0200
On 11 Aug 99, at 1:34, Scott W wrote:

> Well, there's only so many ways you can make guns different, using a
> limited set of game mechanics. Besides, too many toys risks the Rifts
> syndrome, where it's gotta be bigger, better, badder, and to hell with
> game balance.
> But yeah, once I get everything else, I'll get the toy books, and
> happily unleash the innards on my unsuspecting players >:)

My guess is that we'll see more high-tech weaponry. I mean "Laser
Weapons" is a full-blown active skill and there is actually just one
Weapon that falls into the category. I just hope they don't include
MASER-weapons (poor Gilettes...). Then probably more heavy weapons
useable more for pirate and mercenary groups than runners and now that
Deus is doing heavy genetic engineering, we might see biological
weapons.
What else could be in it?
-BattleTech/CP2020-like Needlers
-More Gyro-Weapons for space-operation
-NO smart ammo
-Mines
-Special Melee weapons (like a garrote(sp?))
-New FA-rules ;)

Tobias

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a loaded .45

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R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++ e>+++++(*)
h! r--
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Message no. 2
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Future Weapons (was: Re: SR Future Products and Such)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:02:32 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/1999 12:23:49 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
t_berghoff@*********.netsurf.de writes:

> My guess is that we'll see more high-tech weaponry. I mean "Laser
> Weapons" is a full-blown active skill and there is actually just one
> Weapon that falls into the category.

Actually, there *could* be two if you considered the "eye laser" as one as
well. Additionally, Laser Designators could be argued into this group.

>I just hope they don't include
> MASER-weapons (poor Gilettes...). Then probably more heavy weapons
> useable more for pirate and mercenary groups than runners and now that
> Deus is doing heavy genetic engineering, we might see biological
> weapons.
> What else could be in it?
> -BattleTech/CP2020-like Needlers

I for some reason hope not.

> -More Gyro-Weapons for space-operation

Probable, but not set...

> -NO smart ammo

Define Smart?

> -Mines

Hmmm...interesting possibility.

> -Special Melee weapons (like a garrote(sp?))

Maybe, this one does kind of make sense.

> -New FA-rules ;)

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.......

-K
Message no. 3
From: Ken Ken@********.com
Subject: Future Weapons (was: Re: SR Future Products and Such)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:12:49 -0400
<SNIP>

You mean like a Laser Garrote? I know it sounds cool but wouldn't cost
effectiveness dictate that a monofilament wire would do the job more
effectively? And speaking of weaponry wouldn't ares or someone have a
railgun or two available to play with if the Nuyen were right?

Ken

> My guess is that we'll see more high-tech weaponry. I mean "Laser
> > Weapons" is a full-blown active skill and there is actually just one
> > Weapon that falls into the category.
>
> Actually, there *could* be two if you considered the "eye laser"
> as one as
> well. Additionally, Laser Designators could be argued into this group.
>
> >I just hope they don't include
> > MASER-weapons (poor Gilettes...). Then probably more heavy weapons
> > useable more for pirate and mercenary groups than runners and now that
> > Deus is doing heavy genetic engineering, we might see biological
> > weapons.
> > What else could be in it?
> > -BattleTech/CP2020-like Needlers
>
> I for some reason hope not.
>
> > -More Gyro-Weapons for space-operation
>
> Probable, but not set...
>
> > -NO smart ammo
>
> Define Smart?
>
> > -Mines
>
> Hmmm...interesting possibility.
>
> > -Special Melee weapons (like a garrote(sp?))
>
> Maybe, this one does kind of make sense.
>
> > -New FA-rules ;)
>
> HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.......
>
> -K
>
>
Message no. 4
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Future Weapons (was: Re: SR Future Products and Such)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:09:01 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Zixx."
] My guess is that we'll see more high-tech weaponry. I mean "Laser
] Weapons" is a full-blown active skill and there is actually just one
] Weapon that falls into the category. I just hope they don't include
] MASER-weapons (poor Gilettes...). Then probably more heavy weapons
] useable more for pirate and mercenary groups than runners and now that
] Deus is doing heavy genetic engineering, we might see biological
] weapons.
] What else could be in it?
] -BattleTech/CP2020-like Needlers
] -More Gyro-Weapons for space-operation
] -NO smart ammo
] -Mines
] -Special Melee weapons (like a garrote(sp?))
] -New FA-rules ;)

Not to mention gun B/R rules (hopefully that'll make it in), perhaps
a revamping of the explosives (didn't someone have a problem with the
damage reduction for C4 and C12?), and maybe some pictures of the
weapons. Perhaps.

-------------------------------------------
PLEASE WATCH YOUR STEP
NICK UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Message no. 5
From: Barbie LeVile barbie@********.de
Subject: Future Weapons (was: Re: SR Future Products and Such)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 02:36:18 +0200
Ken wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
>
> You mean like a Laser Garrote? I know it sounds cool but wouldn't cost
> effectiveness dictate that a monofilament wire would do the job more
> effectively? And speaking of weaponry wouldn't ares or someone have a
> railgun or two available to play with if the Nuyen were right?
>
In the original Rigger book under the Stonewall entry was a Ares EG-200
Railgun mentioned, two mode operation, long range slow ROF, and short
range, fast
ROF, no stats where givemn, but it was there, then Aztech has their own
version of a railgun, long range slow ROF, and then there are mentioned
in the germany books some railguns by german producers.

--
Barbie

"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer" - Adolf Hitler

barbie@********.de
http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie/index.html

SRGC 0.22: SR1 SR2+++ SR3--- h++++ b++ b--- UB++ IE- RN+ SR_D+++ W++
dk sh++++ ri++++ sa+++ ad+++ m+++(x+++) gm++ m+++ P+++(P*)
Message no. 6
From: Zixx t_berghoff@*********.netsurf.de
Subject: Future Weapons (was: Re: SR Future Products and Such)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:46:42 +0200
On 11 Aug 99, at 19:02, Ereskanti@***.com wrote:

> In a message dated 8/11/1999 12:23:49 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> t_berghoff@*********.netsurf.de writes:
>
> > My guess is that we'll see more high-tech weaponry. I mean "Laser
> > Weapons" is a full-blown active skill and there is actually just one
> > Weapon that falls into the category.
>
> Actually, there *could* be two if you considered the "eye laser" as one as
> well. Additionally, Laser Designators could be argued into this group.

Yeah, well, but both of them are seriously useless (for runners). And IIRC
the eye-laser requires a special skill, as it should, since there is not
much similarity in how you handle an Ares MP Laser and an eye-laser

> >I just hope they don't include
> > MASER-weapons (poor Gilettes...). Then probably more heavy weapons
> > useable more for pirate and mercenary groups than runners and now that
> > Deus is doing heavy genetic engineering, we might see biological
> > weapons.
> > What else could be in it?
> > -BattleTech/CP2020-like Needlers
>
> I for some reason hope not.

Which part? Needlers could be fun, IMO, the rest is Maximum Munchkin
Material.


> > -More Gyro-Weapons for space-operation
>
> Probable, but not set...

Would be nice, if YOTC has a lot of space-operation. It would suck big
time, of you buy the CC just to get a long list of "space weapons" a year
later..

> > -NO smart ammo
>
> Define Smart?

Seen Fifth Element? Homeing ammo (There's a text from Adam Getchell
about "realistic ammo for 2050" somewhere out there (from 1992, IIRC).
Try to get it and you will see :))

> > -Special Melee weapons (like a garrote(sp?))
>
> Maybe, this one does kind of make sense.

I think a couple of assassin-weapons would be neat.




Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a loaded .45

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R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++ e>+++++(*)
h! r--
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Message no. 7
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Future Weapons (was: Re: SR Future Products and Such)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:36:22 -0400
At 14.46 08-12-99 +0200, you wrote:
>> well. Additionally, Laser Designators could be argued into this group.
>Yeah, well, but both of them are seriously useless (for runners). And IIRC

Really? So pointing my laser designator topped rifle at area where a
sniper fired from while yelling to the rigger to plaster that area with his
truck-mounted autocanonnon and rotary MMGs using my designator as an aiming
point is worthless? Or sneaking it out to the treeline, and using it to
designate a series of windows in a mansion for laser-tracking riot gas
missiles to convince the target to bail? (We didn't have the firepower of
personnel to hit the house itself, but we could take the limo.)
Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"'Impossible' is a term used by those of little imagination or intelligence
to describe that which they can not understand."
Message no. 8
From: Zixx t_berghoff@*********.netsurf.de
Subject: Future Weapons (was: Re: SR Future Products and Such)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 15:57:26 +0200
On 11 Aug 99, at 19:12, Ken wrote:

> <SNIP>
>
> You mean like a Laser Garrote? I know it sounds cool but wouldn't cost
> effectiveness dictate that a monofilament wire would do the job more
> effectively? And speaking of weaponry wouldn't ares or someone have a
> railgun or two available to play with if the Nuyen were right?

Well, I was thinking about a piano-string or something. Assassin
weapons. Man portable railguns? I don't think SR has the power supply
for that...

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a loaded .45

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UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+ w---() O-
M-- PS+(+++) PE- Y+>++ t+(++) 5+ X++
R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++ e>+++++(*)
h! r--
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Message no. 9
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Future Weapons (was: Re: SR Future Products and Such)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:40:37 EDT
In a message dated 8/12/1999 8:44:07 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
cyberraven@********.net writes:

> >> well. Additionally, Laser Designators could be argued into this group.
> >Yeah, well, but both of them are seriously useless (for runners). And
IIRC
>
> Really? So pointing my laser designator topped rifle at area where a
> sniper fired from while yelling to the rigger to plaster that area with his
> truck-mounted autocanonnon and rotary MMGs using my designator as an aiming
> point is worthless? Or sneaking it out to the treeline, and using it to
> designate a series of windows in a mansion for laser-tracking riot gas
> missiles to convince the target to bail? (We didn't have the firepower of
> personnel to hit the house itself, but we could take the limo.)

Kevin, thank you very much for proving the point nicely.

-K
Message no. 10
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Future Weapons (was: Re: SR Future Products and Such)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:42:01 EDT
In a message dated 8/12/1999 9:12:13 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
t_berghoff@*********.netsurf.de writes:

> > You mean like a Laser Garrote? I know it sounds cool but wouldn't cost
> > effectiveness dictate that a monofilament wire would do the job more
> > effectively? And speaking of weaponry wouldn't ares or someone have a
> > railgun or two available to play with if the Nuyen were right?
>
> Well, I was thinking about a piano-string or something. Assassin
> weapons. Man portable railguns? I don't think SR has the power supply
> for that...

Ha Ha Tobias ... somehow I think the person was referring to the concept of
Railguns in general, not man-portable....at least, I *hope* they weren't
referring to Man-Portable... ;-P

-K
Message no. 11
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Future Weapons (was: Re: SR Future Products and Such)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 08:55:22 -0400
At 14.42 08-12-99 EDT, you wrote:
>Ha Ha Tobias ... somehow I think the person was referring to the concept of
>Railguns in general, not man-portable....at least, I *hope* they weren't
>referring to Man-Portable... ;-P

Actually, one of the CP Chromebooks has a believably sized man-pack
railgun. It's about two meters long, and need to be used with either a
fixed mount or from a special gyro harness.
Rare and expansive in SR, but I can see some of them being introduced for
field testing.
Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"'Impossible' is a term used by those of little imagination or intelligence
to describe that which they can not understand."
Message no. 12
From: Zixx t_berghoff@*********.netsurf.de
Subject: Future Weapons (was: Re: SR Future Products and Such)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:59:35 +0200
On 12 Aug 99, at 14:42, Ereskanti@***.com wrote:

> > Well, I was thinking about a piano-string or something. Assassin
> > weapons. Man portable railguns? I don't think SR has the power supply
> > for that...
>
> Ha Ha Tobias ... somehow I think the person was referring to the concept of
> Railguns in general, not man-portable....at least, I *hope* they weren't
> referring to Man-Portable... ;-P

Well there are tank-mounted railguns in SR (the Azzie-gun...you
know...Ralampago...Rampago....whatever...). So the next step would be
man-porable RGs. But I'd simply refuse to have that in my game....

Laugh Keith! Laugh as long as you can...;)

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a loaded .45

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UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+ w---() O-
M-- PS+(+++) PE- Y+>++ t+(++) 5+ X++
R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++ e>+++++(*)
h! r--
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Message no. 13
From: Zixx t_berghoff@*********.netsurf.de
Subject: Future Weapons (was: Re: SR Future Products and Such)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:59:35 +0200
On 12 Aug 99, at 14:40, Ereskanti@***.com wrote:

> > >> well. Additionally, Laser Designators could be argued into this group.
> > >Yeah, well, but both of them are seriously useless (for runners). And
> IIRC
> >
> > Really? So pointing my laser designator topped rifle at area where a
> > sniper fired from while yelling to the rigger to plaster that area with his
> > truck-mounted autocanonnon and rotary MMGs using my designator as an aiming
> > point is worthless? Or sneaking it out to the treeline, and using it to
> > designate a series of windows in a mansion for laser-tracking riot gas
> > missiles to convince the target to bail? (We didn't have the firepower of
> > personnel to hit the house itself, but we could take the limo.)
>
> Kevin, thank you very much for proving the point nicely.

I didn't get the original post, so...

Autocannons, laser-guided missiles and whatever are somewhat out of
scope for a regular SR-game. If you have Seattle 2, check the police
response table. IIRC autocannons are a good way to get a SWAT-team
into the Barrens. OTOH, maybe the Metroplex-Guard...
My point is that a regular Sammy does not have all that much use for the
Laser-Weapons skill. A mercenary....Sure. If is in a full-scale military
operation.
You could of course send in some runners to tag the StufferShack with a
laser designator and then order you team-owned wing of Halcons to
throw a dozon or so LGBs at it. I would recommend to use two or three
heavy t-birds to get the soyfood out there, when you're finished. ;))))



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a loaded .45

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UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+ w---() O-
M-- PS+(+++) PE- Y+>++ t+(++) 5+ X++
R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++ e>+++++(*)
h! r--
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Message no. 14
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Future Weapons (was: Re: SR Future Products and Such)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:16:48 -0400
At 11.59 08-18-99 +0200, you wrote:
>My point is that a regular Sammy does not have all that much use for the

Street Scams should just blow away, and that is from all of my alter egos.
But enoug of that.

>Laser-Weapons skill. A mercenary....Sure. If is in a full-scale military
>operation.

Hmm....
The first one was 8 operators (big group) with a very expensive truck, and
it was a snatch from a safe house (actually it was an apartment), to
extract someone.
We had set some simulators (sounds like gun fire and grenades, along with
shoving small explosive charges into dumpsters and such) to get the cops as
far from an area as possible. We figured that the response time would be
about three minutes. Pick the door, run up to flights of stairs, down the
hall, clear a four room apartment, grab the hostage, and run for the truck.
We can do this about 90 seconds from the first gun shot. We forgot to
check for snipers.
We light off the simulator's by remote, and listen to the LS band. Once
we are happy with the turnout, we hit the street. <CWAK> Gazing hit off of
security armour. I pick up the shooter's thermal trace on my rifle's
sight, and tags in with my designator for the rigger, while the rest of the
team takes the door off with EX shotgun slug. While the rigger keeps the
sniper pinned down with with tight fire on the spot I had lit up, he is
spraying gel rounds all over tha place to convince anyone else that this is
not a good idea. (We had thought about using that building for observation
and then sniper support, so we had the plans. Let us keep from hitting any
of the other apartments.) By the time I'm certain that the right apartment
is being dealt with, the rest of the team is outside the door, so I hold
the checkpoint at the first landing, and tag two reinforcments coming in
from below. Rooms cleared in 15 seconds, grab the hostage while sowing
smoke grenades and more simulators, tear ass for the truck. More smoke and
simulators down an ally in case LS gets there before we are out of LOS, and
we leave.
Whole up for a week, get our doc to make sure the kid isn't wired to blow,
and collect the other half our 400K. (50K per op sounds like a lot, but it
also includes purchasing some special items.)

Second case, we are to grease this one bozo who bailed from his corp with
several million dollars and a lot interesting knowledge in his head. His
old employer can't be dirrectly connected to killing him because his
grandfather is former CEO and still a major shareholder of the company.
So, we get the detail.
We find out he his staying at a "home" up in the mountains over LA,
estimate police responce ten minutes due to weather. Internal defences,
but the primiter only goes out a 800 meters. We know that he is likely to
bail if the building is attacked. So, a mulit launcher (along with the one
we already had) and 8 riot gas (I held out and personally paid the extra
for a mix that contained a regurgitant and a serious skin irritant, rather
than just eye-nose-throat agent) are procured, and I tag the windows, while
a pair of Dobermans come in from the other side and the decker is on a
sat-link and kills the phones and power. We have a one-shot disposable SAM
and an assualt cannon in case he has hidden a chopper someplace and is
stupid enough to launch it in that weather. He used the limo we had
planned on him taking, and caught it in a cross fire. We immobilize and
suppress the hell out of it, then our troll tosses a 15Kg satchel charge
onto the car. Sow some WP grenades onthe wreckage, and fire some fuel
vapor, then HE and WP rockets we had kicking around into the house (I wish
we had a mortar), then bail.
If we had more time and could have defeated the exterior weapons systems
(decker reported no dice on his previous recon- independent system.), I
wnated to take the house to be SURE that we had him, but since parts of him
were found by LS in the neighbor's pool (about two clicks away, according
to our GM), we figure that he's gone.

>You could of course send in some runners to tag the StufferShack with a
>laser designator and then order you team-owned wing of Halcons to

Sounds like a true shadowrunner operation. And they wonder why Johnsons
feel free to screw them on a daily basis.
That group was one of mercs. Professionals. You insult mercs everywhere
by even suggesting such an operation.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 15
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Future Weapons (was: Re: SR Future Products and Such)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:26:01 EDT
In a message dated 8/18/1999 5:14:05 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
t_berghoff@*********.netsurf.de writes:

> > Ha Ha Tobias ... somehow I think the person was referring to the concept
> of
> > Railguns in general, not man-portable....at least, I *hope* they weren't
> > referring to Man-Portable... ;-P
>
> Well there are tank-mounted railguns in SR (the Azzie-gun...you
> know...Ralampago...Rampago....whatever...). So the next step would be
> man-porable RGs. But I'd simply refuse to have that in my game....
>
> Laugh Keith! Laugh as long as you can...;)

I can, and to be honest...I can do it with a determination and insight you,
and everyone else, might find abso-fraggin'-scary... ;)

-K
Message no. 16
From: Zixx t_berghoff@*********.netsurf.de
Subject: Future Weapons (was: Re: SR Future Products and Such)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:10:06 +0200
On 18 Aug 99, at 14:26, Ereskanti@***.com wrote:

> > Laugh Keith! Laugh as long as you can...;)
>
> I can, and to be honest...I can do it with a determination and insight you,
> and everyone else, might find abso-fraggin'-scary... ;)

Well, tell me about it. :)

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a loaded .45

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h! r--
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Message no. 17
From: Zixx t_berghoff@*********.netsurf.de
Subject: Future Weapons (was: Re: SR Future Products and Such)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:10:06 +0200
On 18 Aug 99, at 11:16, IronRaven wrote:

> >You could of course send in some runners to tag the StufferShack with a
> >laser designator and then order you team-owned wing of Halcons to
>
> Sounds like a true shadowrunner operation. And they wonder why Johnsons
> feel free to screw them on a daily basis.
> That group was one of mercs. Professionals. You insult mercs everywhere
> by even suggesting such an operation.

Yeah, OK. I just end this discussion here, this is getting a bit stupid.

Have a nice day.

(See Dvixen, I'm friendly. ;))

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a loaded .45

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M-- PS+(+++) PE- Y+>++ t+(++) 5+ X++
R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++ e>+++++(*)
h! r--
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Message no. 18
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Future Weapons (was: Re: SR Future Products and Such)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:50:12 EDT
In a message dated 8/23/1999 7:30:24 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
t_berghoff@*********.netsurf.de writes:

> > I can, and to be honest...I can do it with a determination and insight
you,
>
> > and everyone else, might find abso-fraggin'-scary... ;)
>
> Well, tell me about it. :)

I can't...you see, I'm trying to become one of *THEM* (look at Granite and
Phantom with a wry smile)...and in order to do that, I have to learn to curb
my natural desire to give out clues, hints, and other not-so-desirous
comments....because to be one of *THEM*, I have to become more ... well,
"Mysterious"...

-K (I am the Sphynx...my power is I Mysterious...oh, and I can't cut guns in
half with my mind)

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Thwap!