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Message no. 1
From: Sandman <SANDSJO2@******.JUNIATA.EDU>
Subject: Game Balance
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 02:16:24 -0400
The game is balanced when, at the end of a run, there is
only one surviving PC, and he/she has only one point of
damage left...

*big nasty evil GM-type grin*

[Note: This post was meant as sarcasm. It should not have
been taken any other way. This has been a public service
announcement...]
Message no. 2
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Game Balance
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 16:24:14 +1100
Sean Sheridan writes:


> There are miniguns in the world, there are nukes in the world, but there
> aren't any MAGIC nukes or miniguns because people say game balance.

Um, there actually is. Try the Great Ghost Dance. I'd rate that in as the
magical equivilent of a nuke. And think of the associated side effects and
difficulties for any PC to do that. Same thing with nukes. I think nukes
(and The Great Ghost Dance) are prefectly balanced. The Dance was not ruled
out becasue of "Game Balance", it exists, and it _is_ entirely more powerful
than regular magic. But as with nukes, the power comes at greater cost and
difficulty. Therein lies the Game Balance. Soemthing which gives huge
bonuses for little effort or risk does not have Game Balance, and so can be
construed as munchkinous. It is suggestions like these which people throw
"Game Balance" arguments at.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 3
From: Blaine M Nelson <nelsonb@******.MATHCS.CARLETON.EDU>
Subject: Game balance
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 10:29:30 -0500
I have GM'ed many different games including Shadowrun. Regardless
of how much I like the Shadowrun rules and genre, I can't seem to
maintain game balance. It is a recurring problem that seems tied to
higher tech games like Shadowrun. The players almost always adopt
a "Most Toys Wins" strategy and I find myself worrying about what
stuff they have more than about plot or story - I forget the good
stuff and worry about who has the Panther. Don't get me wrong; the
guys I play with are good guys who enjoy roleplaying, but in the
modern world "Most Toys" is the way things go. But, in a
roleplaying game, roleplaying is the most important thing. Any
ideas, pointers, whatever as to how to resolve this conflict?
Thanks.
Message no. 4
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 12:36:39 -0400
On Mon, 31 Jul 1995, Blaine M Nelson wrote:

> I have GM'ed many different games including Shadowrun. Regardless
> of how much I like the Shadowrun rules and genre, I can't seem to
> maintain game balance. It is a recurring problem that seems tied to
> higher tech games like Shadowrun. The players almost always adopt
> a "Most Toys Wins" strategy and I find myself worrying about what
> stuff they have more than about plot or story - I forget the good
> stuff and worry about who has the Panther.

Then stop worrying about who has the Panther. I mean, how many
times does your average runner get to use such a serious piece of
hardware anyway? One of the players in my campaign has a Panther Assault
Cannon as well, but in almost two years of play he has used it twice.
Why? Because he's scared shitless that the cops are gonna catch him
transporting it to or from a run one of these days. He's already been
detained by the police and has a previous arrest record, so he knows that
they'll show him exactly *no* sympathy.
The biggest way to achieve the almighty "Game Balance" (tm) is to
keep things in perspective. Yes, "Most toys wins" is somewhat
appropriate in modern society, but there's no way the PC's have more toys
than the corps, the cops, the mob, the government, the military, or just
about any other organization they may run afoul of. Look at things from
a more realistic standpoint. Even with nifty toys, the PC's will often
be outclassed by the sheer number of opponents in most cases. Panther
Assault Cannon or not, a bunch of screaming, shotgun and assault-rifle
toting trolls on Harley's is a harrowing sight. And that's just a biker
gang. Think what a corporate hit-squad would be like.

> Don't get me wrong; the guys I play with are good guys who enjoy
> roleplaying...

Then you shouldn't have any problems. If they are in character,
they will realize that for the most part they need to keep a low profile,
which usually means leaving the heavy ordnance underneath the floorboards
in the garage. If the toys become the be-all and end-all of the
characters' existence, try throwing some runs at them where the toys are
not appropriate.
Above all else, keep things on a consistent, realistic level. If
you approach these kinds of situations logically (the highway patrol
officer will *not* just ignore the manpack of SAM's in the back seat)
you'll be better off. Better still, once your players figure out that
you will approach these kinds of situations in this manner, they will
give up they're toymeistering munchkinous ways out of a desire to keep
their characters out of prison.

Marc
Message no. 5
From: "Edmund M. Metheny" <emm1@***.HUMBOLDT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 12:23:00 -0700
On Mon, 31 Jul 1995, Blaine M Nelson wrote:

> I have GM'ed many different games including Shadowrun. Regardless
> of how much I like the Shadowrun rules and genre, I can't seem to
> maintain game balance. It is a recurring problem that seems tied to
> higher tech games like Shadowrun. The players almost always adopt
> a "Most Toys Wins" strategy and I find myself worrying about what
> stuff they have more than about plot or story - I forget the good
> stuff and worry about who has the Panther. Don't get me wrong; the
> guys I play with are good guys who enjoy roleplaying, but in the
> modern world "Most Toys" is the way things go. But, in a
> roleplaying game, roleplaying is the most important thing. Any
> ideas, pointers, whatever as to how to resolve this conflict?
> Thanks.
>
I have a few.

1) Remember, no matter how heavily armed the PCs are, there is ALWAYS
someone out there who can frag them, by sheer numbers if nothing else.
2) The biggest part of Shadowrun is the Shadows. PCs who run around
with military hardware glued all over them are going to stand out like
200 watt bulbs. This isn't Underground.
3) Obvious = dead.
4) People who run around with all the latest junk are going to have
their lives made miserable by every punk who thinks he/she is drekkhot.
5) Demolitions solves a multitude of problems.
6) If the PCs make a name for themselves using heavy-handed tactics then
unless they kill EVERYONE who sees them on a run, the corps are going to
start building up a pretty thick file on their MO. Once this is done it
is pretty easy to set up an ambush that will blow the PCs to bits. If
you don't want to blow the PCs to bits, capture them instead and send
them off to some research facility (without their gear, of course) to
receive some REAL cutting-edge technology. Or the latest VITAS plague.
Your choice.
7) Remember, most PCs have contacts, and contacts are a double-edged
sword. Sure they can help the PC out, but they are not big, tough,
experienced, macho Shadowrunners themselves. Given the proper
"incentive" they will probably spill the beans on the characters whereabouts.
8) Everyone is vulnerable to SOMETHING.

Edmund Metheny
Arcata, California
<emm1@***.humboldt.edu>
<EMGumby@***.COM>

Beyond the Redwood Curtain,
somewhere on the Lost Coast
Message no. 6
From: Ioannis Pantelidis <jpante@******.COMPULINK.GR>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 22:47:56 +0300
On Mon, 31 Jul 1995, Marc A Renouf wrote:

> On Mon, 31 Jul 1995, Blaine M Nelson wrote:
>
> > I have GM'ed many different games including Shadowrun. Regardless
> > of how much I like the Shadowrun rules and genre, I can't seem to
> > maintain game balance. It is a recurring problem that seems tied to
> > higher tech games like Shadowrun. The players almost always adopt
> > a "Most Toys Wins" strategy and I find myself worrying about what
> > stuff they have more than about plot or story - I forget the good
> > stuff and worry about who has the Panther.
>
> Then stop worrying about who has the Panther. I mean, how many
> times does your average runner get to use such a serious piece of
> hardware anyway? One of the players in my campaign has a Panther Assault
> Cannon as well, but in almost two years of play he has used it twice.
> Why? Because he's scared shitless that the cops are gonna catch him
> transporting it to or from a run one of these days. He's already been
> detained by the police and has a previous arrest record, so he knows that
> they'll show him exactly *no* sympathy.
> The biggest way to achieve the almighty "Game Balance" (tm) is to
> keep things in perspective. Yes, "Most toys wins" is somewhat
> appropriate in modern society, but there's no way the PC's have more toys
> than the corps, the cops, the mob, the government, the military, or just
> about any other organization they may run afoul of. Look at things from
> a more realistic standpoint. Even with nifty toys, the PC's will often
> be outclassed by the sheer number of opponents in most cases. Panther
> Assault Cannon or not, a bunch of screaming, shotgun and assault-rifle
> toting trolls on Harley's is a harrowing sight. And that's just a biker
> gang. Think what a corporate hit-squad would be like.
>
> > Don't get me wrong; the guys I play with are good guys who enjoy
> > roleplaying...
>
> Then you shouldn't have any problems. If they are in character,
> they will realize that for the most part they need to keep a low profile,
> which usually means leaving the heavy ordnance underneath the floorboards
> in the garage. If the toys become the be-all and end-all of the
> characters' existence, try throwing some runs at them where the toys are
> not appropriate.
> Above all else, keep things on a consistent, realistic level. If
> you approach these kinds of situations logically (the highway patrol
> officer will *not* just ignore the manpack of SAM's in the back seat)
> you'll be better off. Better still, once your players figure out that
> you will approach these kinds of situations in this manner, they will
> give up they're toymeistering munchkinous ways out of a desire to keep
> their characters out of prison.
>
> Marc
panther assault cannon is not sold in super markets it has availability
24/years ( :) )it is impossible gor a starting character taking this weapon
it is very iffficult to obtain it also very expensive (i think there is a
stat called street index and a stat called availability where both of
them are explained in sr!! and in shaddowtech) there is no need to try
hard to keep balnce because the game and the ruleas are madde for keeping
the balance follow them andd i think there will no be any problem.ALSO it
is impossible to move around with an assault cannon if someone sees yo he
will call the police.
Message no. 7
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 15:50:31 -0400
>>>>> "Blaine" == Blaine M Nelson
<nelsonb@******.MATHCS.CARLETON.EDU>
>>>>> writes:

Blaine> I have GM'ed many different games including Shadowrun.
Blaine> Regardless of how much I like the Shadowrun rules and genre, I
Blaine> can't seem to maintain game balance. It is a recurring problem
Blaine> that seems tied to higher tech games like Shadowrun.

Actually, it's a phenomena of flexable games; you can get similar
effects with Champions, for instance.

Blaine> The players almost always adopt a "Most Toys Wins" strategy and
Blaine> I find myself worrying about what stuff they have more than
Blaine> about plot or story - I forget the good stuff and worry about
Blaine> who has the Panther.

Well, that's not cyberpunk, that's a contest to see who can get the
biggest gun. And, to be honest, one the players cannot win.

So, having mentioned Champions already, I'll give you the best advice I
can for maintaining game balance: When your players ask you for
something you think is unreasonable, say, "no".

If they complain tell them, "he who dies with the most toys... dies".

If they *still* don't get it, they're not as clueful as you seem to
think they are.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \
Message no. 8
From: Mike and Jill Johnson <mnj@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 15:46:00 MDT
>I have GM'ed many different games including Shadowrun. Regardless
>of how much I like the Shadowrun rules and genre, I can't seem to
>maintain game balance. It is a recurring problem that seems tied to
>higher tech games like Shadowrun. The players almost always adopt
>a "Most Toys Wins" strategy and I find myself worrying about what
>stuff they have more than about plot or story - I forget the good
>stuff and worry about who has the Panther.


About once a month, we have a "strickly background" night. I think they're
almost as much fun as a full blown adventure. We had one guy who had a
panther. His mother used to "clean" it for him. Every other week, the guy
would have to take the panther to his buddy, and have him put it back to
right. It seems Mom, would leave out four or five pretty important pieces.

You might think about trying background night. It does put things in
prespective, and the wackier you can make the player's family, the better.
After a while, the players won't want the panther, they'll just want their
kid sister to stay at home, so they won't have to come and bail them out.



Jill
Message no. 9
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 18:17:01 -0400
Jill Johnson sez:

> About once a month, we have a "strickly background" night. I think they're
> almost as much fun as a full blown adventure. We had one guy who had a
> panther. His mother used to "clean" it for him. Every other week, the guy
> would have to take the panther to his buddy, and have him put it back to
> right. It seems Mom, would leave out four or five pretty important pieces.
>
> You might think about trying background night. It does put things in
> prespective, and the wackier you can make the player's family, the better.
> After a while, the players won't want the panther, they'll just want their
> kid sister to stay at home, so they won't have to come and bail them out.


Good idea! Most of my players try and keep similar strong senses of
character.. For instance, I have one PhysAd who can only make it about
half the time. When she's not there she's "visiting her mother" in Tir
Tairngire. >8->

I also run an e-mail list for my campaign, which is open for both players
and characters to post to. About half the posts are administrivia or
adventure summaries; the other half tend to be a "shadowtalk" sort of
communication among characters. A lot of interesting character background
comes out this way, without slowing down game sessions. (Game sessions are
already far more taken up in role-playing and planning/discussion than in
action and combat; they couldn't take much more slowing down before the
players got bored with themselves!)

Yet another idea to increase role-playing involvement is to give the players
some control over the environment.. Another of the characters in my
campaign is a Chinese street punk who's a member of the local Tong (which
he refers to as "the Association.") His contact point is Mon Hing's Chinese
Restaurant, which you can find in the Renton section of the Seattle book..
When the runners are there, John plays the entire restaurant. It gives
me a break from GM'ing, and he's much better at handling that particular
atmosphere. All of my players have similar control over their own places
and contacts, although not everyone goes that far.. I've noticed that
the ones who exercise their control and actively run parts of their own
lives tend to have better-developed characters.

I'd be interested, too, in hearing how other GM's handle the "role-playing
vs. toys" problem.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| "To really ask is to open the door
My opinions are my opinions. | to the whirlwind."
Please don't blame anyone else. | -- Anne Rice, _The Vampire Lestat_
Message no. 10
From: Mike and Jill Johnson <mnj@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 16:26:00 MDT
>I also run an e-mail list for my campaign, which is open for both players
>and characters to post to. About half the posts are administrivia or
>adventure summaries; the other half tend to be a "shadowtalk" sort of
>communication among characters. A lot of interesting character background


Is there any way I can get on list? (or what home page is it on?) There
are times, I do the news-fax, and it would help to have other back-ground
"noise" then the idle stuff I come up with.



Jill
Message no. 11
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 17:01:07 GMT
> I have GM'ed many different games including Shadowrun. Regardless
> of how much I like the Shadowrun rules and genre, I can't seem to
> maintain game balance. It is a recurring problem that seems tied to
> higher tech games like Shadowrun. The players almost always adopt
> a "Most Toys Wins" strategy and I find myself worrying about what
> stuff they have more than about plot or story - I forget the good
> stuff and worry about who has the Panther.

One solution is to use "snap runs" - the team are socialising, comparing
notes, whatever, to get them together in a public place. Then drop the
situation on them. They have the equipment they're carrying: handguns
and personal armour. It's a useful lesson for PCs who have got used to
relying on firepower instead of intelligence.

Another is to play your bad guys properly. If the PCs run around with
assault cannon, they're going to find themselves in an ambush set by
wired guards in military armour with gyromounted heavy machine guns,
calling in artillery support. Corporations can always outgun a player
team, and the bigger the guns the more the collateral damage: hence the
more economic sense in taking that team out.

In the same vein, consider two targets. One is in heavy armour and carrying
a Panther assault cannon with a missile launcher across his back. The other
is wearing street clothes (probably an armour jacket) and holds a submachine
gun. Who do you shoot at first? Sensible target priorities should begin
to dissuade public display of ordnance.

Then there's the "the run requires you to follow someone discreetly down
the street..." CLUMP CLUMP (heavy armour) <jingle jingle> (belted ammo)
<BLAMBLAMBLAM> (SWAT team responding to panicked citizens terrified by
massively-armed shadowrunners)

If all else fails, have a Johnson walk away from a meeting in disgust when he
sees who turned up. "I wanted a covert-operation team, not a heavy-weapons
battalion!"

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 12
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 20:18:46 -0400
Stephen wrote:

>I'd be interested, too, in hearing how other GM's handle the "role-playing
>vs. toys" problem.

I used to have a real problem with this. A friend and I took turns GM'ing.
He'd run the group in LA then we'd find some excuse to send the group cross
country to Chicago (pre-bug) where I would take over the campaign (my
character would become a plot advancing NPC when I GM'ed). Occasionally my
cohort would give up some nast bit of hardware or other. I found sending the
party out into the wilderness (ie the cross country trip) was an excellent
area to get rid of stuff as it malfunctioned (some write ups in the pubs).
The group has very limited ammo, real problems with border inspections, etc.
Let me tell you the teeth nashing that went on when I told the group that
they would most certainly be subject to searches at each border they crossed
(the rigger did not want to leave his vehicles in LA, so they of course
drove). The fear of getting caught and having their toys taken away really
helped limit what they brought along.

Duke
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 10:12:38 +0200
>I have GM'ed many different games including Shadowrun. Regardless
>of how much I like the Shadowrun rules and genre, I can't seem to
>maintain game balance. It is a recurring problem that seems tied to
>higher tech games like Shadowrun. The players almost always adopt
>a "Most Toys Wins" strategy and I find myself worrying about what
>stuff they have more than about plot or story
[snip]
> But, in a
>roleplaying game, roleplaying is the most important thing. Any
>ideas, pointers, whatever as to how to resolve this conflict?

Talk to them about it.
Are these players who also take each skill at 5 or 6 so they'll succeed most
often, and only buy gear they'll need in the game? Explain to them that you
can also play real good if you take less destructive weapons, and buy
gadgets beyond belief (CP2020 sourcebooks are real good for this) -- that's
the way I usually build characters, and I try to get my players to do the same.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Sponsored by nobody
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 10:12:53 +0200
>1) Remember, no matter how heavily armed the PCs are, there is ALWAYS
[snip
>8) Everyone is vulnerable to SOMETHING.

9) EXPLAIN all this to them before bringing it down onto their heads. If you
talk to them, and they still go ahead and act the way they do, you can try
Edmund's suggestions and say "I told you..." If you do it without telling
them about it, they'll hate your guts.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Sponsored by nobody
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 15
From: Mr Bob Sagittarian <habelmon@********.CS.ADELAIDE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 18:03:54 +0930
>
> I have GM'ed many different games including Shadowrun. Regardless
> of how much I like the Shadowrun rules and genre, I can't seem to
> maintain game balance. It is a recurring problem that seems tied to
> higher tech games like Shadowrun. The players almost always adopt
> a "Most Toys Wins" strategy and I find myself worrying about what
> stuff they have more than about plot or story - I forget the good
> stuff and worry about who has the Panther. Don't get me wrong; the
> guys I play with are good guys who enjoy roleplaying, but in the
> modern world "Most Toys" is the way things go. But, in a
> roleplaying game, roleplaying is the most important thing. Any
> ideas, pointers, whatever as to how to resolve this conflict?
> Thanks.
>

Well, I try not to go for the most toys, because most toys
are very easily taken away from you. Case in point: Roleplaying
today, we were offered a number of items by an employer. I took the
infrared goggles and medkit. I already had a shotgun. Now the
amusingt hing is that I do just as well as the other players in
combat, even though I don't have exposive tipped bullets, frag
grenades and light security armor. Deadly damage is deadly damage, no
matter whether it explodes or not. Anyway, going through a
checkpoint, the guards searched us. All they took was my shotgun.
It's amazing what a scalpel can do in the right hands isn't it?
<sklitch>

Story is good. Unfortunately, there tends not to be much.
On the most toys angle, the simple thing to do is to make it clear
that making the best of what you've got is more meritous of karma
points than using an excellent tool successfully.

Or nuke them all.
--

Bob Sagittarian Odds & Ends
habelmon@********.cs.adelaide.edu.au
stimpy@****.student.adelaide.edu.au
Message no. 16
From: Dave Woods <spuwdsda@*******.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 17:00:28 +0100
On Mon, 31 Jul 1995, Blaine M Nelson wrote:

> I have GM'ed many different games including Shadowrun. Regardless
> of how much I like the Shadowrun rules and genre, I can't seem to
> maintain game balance. It is a recurring problem that seems tied to
> higher tech games like Shadowrun. The players almost always adopt
> a "Most Toys Wins" strategy and I find myself worrying about what
> stuff they have more than about plot or story - I forget the good
> stuff and worry about who has the Panther. Don't get me wrong; the
> guys I play with are good guys who enjoy roleplaying, but in the
> modern world "Most Toys" is the way things go. But, in a
> roleplaying game, roleplaying is the most important thing. Any
> ideas, pointers, whatever as to how to resolve this conflict?
> Thanks.
>

High karma and money Shadowrunners are going to be pretty good it a
fight. So toughen up the opposition or give them non-combat runs.

As for a tough opposition take for example our team of special forces.
Priority A across the board. Alphaware and cultured bio at standard cost.
Max skill ratings of 8 or 10 if specialised. And any goodies from Fields
of Fire we wanted.

We've just created the characters so I don't know what the opposition
will be. But knowing our GM we'll still get the SH#T kicked out of us.

- David
Message no. 17
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 16:31:04 +0200
Hi!

I don't see the problem with Panthers or [L|M|H]MGs or smilar stuff. If a PC
DARES to run around with such a toy, rumour will be on the street within
days, if not hours. Well, Mr. Aztechnology thinks: "What, an assalt cannon
near MY beloved pyramide? Nope!", sets contract, and a guy with a suit and
a small case will enter a rooftop near the PC's home. Where he will assamble
the Sniper rifle. End of story.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
Message no. 18
From: "Edmund M. Metheny" <emm1@***.HUMBOLDT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 10:58:00 -0700
On Tue, 1 Aug 1995, Gurth wrote:

> >1) Remember, no matter how heavily armed the PCs are, there is ALWAYS
> [snip
> >8) Everyone is vulnerable to SOMETHING.
>
> 9) EXPLAIN all this to them before bringing it down onto their heads. If you
> talk to them, and they still go ahead and act the way they do, you can try
> Edmund's suggestions and say "I told you..." If you do it without telling
> them about it, they'll hate your guts.
>
Good point, Gurth. I was coming from the perspective of running a
campaign like this from the beginning. If you already have a campaign
going where the PCs have been running around with Panthers for six
months, they will yowl like mad if you suddenly change the rules and hose
them without warning.

OTOH, isn't that what Shadowrun is all about? %/ <-- (evil grin).

Edmund Metheny
Arcata, California
<emm1@***.humboldt.edu>
<EMGumby@***.COM>

Beyond the Redwood Curtain,
somewhere on the Lost Coast
Message no. 19
From: "Edmund M. Metheny" <emm1@***.HUMBOLDT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 11:03:00 -0700
You know, I just recently saw "The Inn of the Seventh Happiness" with
Ingmar Bergman, and it gave me a great idea for how to deal with "most
toys" characters.

Send them off to
Africa/China/Athabasca/someplace-else-way-the-hell-out-there and arrange
for them to escort a large number of orphans and refugees to safety.
Their transport bites it and they have to walk out. High tech toys may
save them, but at the price of getting their charges mulched. Standup
fights are likewise verboten.

Edmund Metheny
Arcata, California
<emm1@***.humboldt.edu>
<EMGumby@***.COM>

Beyond the Redwood Curtain,
somewhere on the Lost Coast
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 21:58:10 +0200
>I don't see the problem with Panthers or [L|M|H]MGs or smilar stuff. If a PC
>DARES to run around with such a toy, rumour will be on the street within
>days, if not hours. Well, Mr. Aztechnology thinks: "What, an assalt cannon
>near MY beloved pyramide? Nope!", sets contract, and a guy with a suit and
>a small case will enter a rooftop near the PC's home. Where he will assamble
>the Sniper rifle. End of story.

Why make it so difficult? IMO, if the runner's near the Azzie pyramid,
Mr(s). Exec will just tell security to open fire. When Lone Star shows up
and asks why they were shooting someone outside their turf, they can say "He
was carrying an assault cannon. We did the city a favor."


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You want to but you can't, and if you do, you wish you hadn't
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 21
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 08:34:23 +0200
:->
:->> I have GM'ed many different games including Shadowrun. Regardless
:->> of how much I like the Shadowrun rules and genre, I can't seem to
:->> maintain game balance. It is a recurring problem that seems tied to
:->> higher tech games like Shadowrun. The players almost always adopt
:->> a "Most Toys Wins" strategy and I find myself worrying about what
:->> stuff they have more than about plot or story - I forget the good
:->> stuff and worry about who has the Panther. Don't get me wrong; the
:->> guys I play with are good guys who enjoy roleplaying, but in the
:->> modern world "Most Toys" is the way things go. But, in a
:->> roleplaying game, roleplaying is the most important thing. Any
:->> ideas, pointers, whatever as to how to resolve this conflict?
:->> Thanks.
:->>
:->
:->High karma and money Shadowrunners are going to be pretty good it a
:->fight. So toughen up the opposition or give them non-combat runs.
:->
:->As for a tough opposition take for example our team of special forces.
:->Priority A across the board. Alphaware and cultured bio at standard cost.
:->Max skill ratings of 8 or 10 if specialised. And any goodies from Fields
:->of Fire we wanted.
:->
About half of our runs are non-combantent and normally just to
get additional infomation, chatisise and regain something lost, while
these runs result in a net loss they can also be the most fun. As for
the skills, we run it that the character cannot just put up his or
her skill (at least not with a good reason), that person has to train
with someone who has a higher skill rating than them (eg Phoenix our
pyromanic mage, regestered himself with the Lonestar Arson
investigation squad in order to gain the training he wanted in
Fire-lore). To push attributes you spend the time in months. (eg
Limpit wants to push his strength to 7, Seven game months later after
training in a gym he can push his strenght up)

Andre'
Man is a teller of stories, he lives by and is surrounded by his
own stories and those of other people, he sees everythings that
happens to him in terms of these stories and thus has to live
enacting them
-Sarte

GARFIELD !
-Jon
Message no. 22
From: Ioannis Pantelidis <jpante@******.COMPULINK.GR>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 09:56:15 +0300
where it is written how long time it takes someone to raise a skill or an
attribute?
thanks
jpante@*********.gr
Message no. 23
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 10:07:40 BST
Lynch :-
> One solution is to use "snap runs" - the team are socialising, comparing
> notes, whatever, to get them together in a public place. Then drop the
> situation on them. They have the equipment they're carrying: handguns
> and personal armour. It's a useful lesson for PCs who have got used to
> relying on firepower instead of intelligence.

The snap run is a fine standby for GM's, I have a little one based
on an old episode of the Equalizer I saw a while back.

PC's are in the bar, lightly protected.

NPC's arrive, heavily armed, and armoured, very scared, probably high
on something bad and proceed to hold the entire place hostage
(NB. make very sure that they don't step close to PC's with wires).

Outside, there's a major-league assassin who's trying to pick up
the money on one of the NPC's heads becuase he messed up the daughter
of a local (biz/gov/corp/org crime/gang) boss.


Now let them try to talk their way out... the main problem is to ensure
that they don't just try to jump the kidnappers. The easiest way to
do this is to ensure that they're outnumbered, and that there are
civilians that the PC's care about in the LOF, ie. their significant
other, mother or maybe a major (and wimpy) contact.

It works well if one of the PC's is late for the meet, and is now on
the outside, especially if they have limited communication, and the
assassin is planning on busting in with grenades to get his Yen.


Sorry if this is a bit late bTW, I've been locked out of the lab for
a couple of days :-(

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 24
From: Orin Starchaser <moon.29@*******.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 10:00:33 -0500
>where it is written how long time it takes someone to raise a skill or an
>attribute?
>thanks
>jpante@*********.gr
Actually, I think that it is more appropriate to say that the character was
planning on raising the skill or attribute before he/she earned thier
necessary karma. For GM's who don't like this, have your characters make
'wish lists' as what they want to be was they get the time to improve
themselves.("I wanna be an initiate", or "I wanna be faster", or
even"Man,
I *gotta* learn that new skill!") They make a wish list at the start of
the campaign, and redo it every time they spand karma. The spending of
Karma is the proverbial 'icing on the cake', just like using a focus.
Sure, you may have bought the focus before hand of found it, but I
guarantee you that you cannot use it until you spend the necessary Karma.
Same goes for improved abilities and skills.
Message no. 25
From: Ioannis Pantelidis <jpante@******.COMPULINK.GR>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 18:32:47 +0300
so you are saying that it takes no time to improve any attributte or
skiill?
Message no. 26
From: Orin Starchaser <moon.29@*******.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 11:51:02 -0500
>so you are saying that it takes no time to improve any attributte or
>skiill?
Not really. I'm just saying that when you make up a character, you make up
a wish list as to what things you would like to spend the Karma on first.
It is then assumed that the character would spend some of his/her down time
on those items in the wish list. When the Karma is spent, it's just like
saying, I now have attained this new level of ability. Karma basically
solidifies the 'wish list'.
Message no. 27
From: Ioannis Pantelidis <jpante@******.COMPULINK.GR>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 22:23:26 +0300
On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Orin Starchaser wrote:

> >so you are saying that it takes no time to improve any attributte or
> >skiill?
> Not really. I'm just saying that when you make up a character, you make up
> a wish list as to what things you would like to spend the Karma on first.
> It is then assumed that the character would spend some of his/her down time
> on those items in the wish list. When the Karma is spent, it's just like
> saying, I now have attained this new level of ability. Karma basically
> solidifies the 'wish list'.
ok i am saying this because if there is neee time between aventures for
upgraing skills a goo time would be 2 days per karma (for atributes)
Message no. 28
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 18:38:15 -0400
You wrote:

>where it is written how long time it takes someone to raise a skill or an
>attribute?
>thanks
>jpante@****

I don't believe it is written anywhere. I think (and have always played) it
is a GM & player determination. Something along the lines of:

GM - That will take you a year to learn.

Player - I started taking correspondence courses 10 months ago.

GM - uh huh...sigh.

Duke
Message no. 29
From: Ioannis Pantelidis <jpante@******.COMPULINK.GR>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 09:54:46 +0300
On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Duke Diener wrote:

> You wrote:
>
> >where it is written how long time it takes someone to raise a skill or an
> >attribute?
> >thanks
> >jpante@****
>
> I don't believe it is written anywhere. I think (and have always played) it
> is a GM & player determination. Something along the lines of:
>
> GM - That will take you a year to learn.
it is a very long time (think the lifestyle payings!!!)
>
> Player - I started taking correspondence courses 10 months ago.
i coulld say only few days (for skills) but for attributtes a month would
be nice
> GM - uh huh...sigh.
>
> Duke
Message no. 30
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 16:07:28 +1000
Ioannis Pantelidis writes:

> ok i am saying this because if there is neee time between aventures for
> upgraing skills a goo time would be 2 days per karma (for atributes)

I just rule that attributes and often used skills are being continually
upgraded during the runners life, and that when they spend karma they just
"officialise" the increase. If it's a new skill, or a rarely used skill they
wish to upgrade, then I usually require that the runner put in a bit of time
to do it (such as practising with one who has a decent rating in that skill,
going to a class, or whatever). I don't see a need to assign times to the
increases of skills and stats, unless the player wants to do a particularily
large increase (like from 2 to 5) all at the same time.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 31
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 19:29:03 +0200
>so you are saying that it takes no time to improve any attributte or
>skiill?

Not according to the SR2 rules. Or, to be more precise, it doesn't say how
much time it takes. You could for instance assume that a skill is assumed to
develop during shadowruns, and that the spending of Karma is just the game
mechanic for representing that.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You want to but you can't, and if you do, you wish you hadn't
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 32
From: Mr Bob Sagittarian <habelmon@********.CS.ADELAIDE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 10:52:09 +0930
> I just rule that attributes and often used skills are being continually
> upgraded during the runners life, and that when they spend karma they just
> "officialise" the increase. If it's a new skill, or a rarely used skill
they
> wish to upgrade, then I usually require that the runner put in a bit of time
> to do it (such as practising with one who has a decent rating in that skill,
> going to a class, or whatever). I don't see a need to assign times to the
> increases of skills and stats, unless the player wants to do a particularily
> large increase (like from 2 to 5) all at the same time.
>

I concur with not giving extra karma points to player characters for
study, because the players still haven't done anything to deserve them.
Surely, karma is meant to be the result of hard work and survival, where's
the challenge in saying "My character studies astrophysics for one year and
thus gains x Karma points. Thankyou". The only people that you should give
study points to are NPC's, and let's face it, as GM you can just fudge the
figures anyway.

Karma should be earned.


Bob Sagittarian Odds & Ends
habelmon@********.cs.adelaide.edu.au
stimpy@****.student.adelaide.edu.au
Message no. 33
From: Paul Cummings <100532.621@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 23:14:13 -0400
>I don't see a need to assign times to the
>increase of skills and stats, unless the
>player wants to do a particularily large
>increase (like from 2 to 5) all at the same
>time

The house rule our group uses is that between an
adventure a stat or skill can only be increased
by one level. This stops someone going from Firearms
2 (competent beginner) to Firearms 5 (professional)
in one bound. The jump is just too extreme.

From 2 to 5 would require:

Firearms 2
Adventure
Karma Cost 6 (General: 2 x skill level going to)
Firearms 3
Adventure
Karma Cost 8
Firearms 4
Adventure
Karma Cost 10
Firearms 5

The skill then takes a minimum of three adventures
to progress through the levels. It would take longer
in practice because I don't hand out Karma at 6 - 10
points per adventure, well maybe the lower bounds in
exceptional circumstances.

[We actually use this rule in every game we play where
the players can buy character improvements from points
awarded]

Paul Cummings [Fife, Scotland]
Message no. 34
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Game balance
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 08:22:08 -0500
<snip comments about how mages were difficult to balance, due (at least in part)
to spell locked invisibility and other spells>

I've never had players do this, but if they did, here are some of the things I'd do
to make spell locks not as central to a mage's strategy:

1) Have an area w/ numerous spirits, perhaps low powered and toast, but
numerous enough that you can't fend off ALL of them at the same time, and it
doesn't take much to snap a spell lock. Even if you have 2 powerful elementals
hanging about you, 10 force 3 spirits darting about like hyenas will leave you
lockless. Mage astrally perceives and uses area-effect mana spell? Hyena 1
attacks spell (poor thing) while Hyenas 2-10 scatter out of the area of effect.

2) A secret magic group discovers a way to use spell locks as a target for ritual
magic. I'd be subtle: the group discovers the "aura signature" of one of his
locks,
and while that lock is active they get a nice reduction of target number for their
control-thoughts spell... If you do it right, the player won't figure out what is going
on for at least an adventure or two...

3) To counter invisibility, send a dual-natured creature after the mage. The critter
can see the spell plain as day.

4) Again to counter invisibility, even a low level mage can cast Detect Human on a
street samurai... :)

5) Just keep in mind that no matter how stealthy/invulnerable the mages seem on
the physical plane, you can't do magic like that without being obvious and
vulnerable to the astral.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 35
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 07:26:00 -0600 (MDT)
Richard M Conroy wrote:
|
|Surely there's a better way to balance out magic ? Without fragging
|your mages with unbelievable opponents ? I'm reluctant to just say
|"no spell locks, no grimoire, etc" it's that stuff that makes being
|a mage interesting.
|
|I just had to stop that campaign because I refused to turn every single
|opponent into a walking tank/free spirit/quickened mage. This is Shadow-
|Run not AD$D, it would totally ruin SOD, and I didn't want to turn the
|game into a high-magic campaign either.

Don't run a combat game. That's why most people move on
from AD%D to other games. You're complaining that you
can't threaten the mage physicaly without maintaining game
balance. Then don't. Threaten characters like that in
subtle ways. Have a corp decker wipe out his bank
account. Have the IRS audit him. Have the Feds blackmail
him. Have someone kidnap a loved one. Have someone bribe
him. Have someone poison his burger at Stuffer Shack... uh
wait a minute ;)

If you're GMing SR then GM SR, not AD%D. There are plenty
of situations and stories that you can run that combat
won't solve. Have fun :)

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 36
From: Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 96 17:14:00 PDT
> Don't run a combat game.

I actually didn't, I ran quite a lot of investigation missions,
most of which were well thought out, had plenty of depth, clues, red
herrings, sub-plots and 3rd parties. Many of these missions were reduced
to nothing by mages (spirit/Watcher(plural)) search for this person:
made getaways fairly pathetic).

> You're complaining that you
> can't threaten the mage physicaly without maintaining game
> balance.

It wasn't the physical stuff... I mean I couldn't *CHALLENGE* them, PC
Interrogation could be solved by an appropriate spell, astral scanning
is a hell of a lot more effective at scoping an area than the combined
efforts of binoculars, microphones (laser/shotgun), and hacking the
security cameras. Everything became remotely simple with magic, you can
accomplish quite a lot of tasks easily (interrogation, searching,
stealth, telekinesis, levitation) without the need for actually learning
an appropriate skill or owning appropriate (expensive) equipment.

The team quickly learned that all those skills they spent learning
became fairly silly compared with what could routinely be accomplished
with magic, it also meant that you didn't have to carry as much
equipment. Generally runs degenerated into letting the mage do
everything, it may not be *AS* good as what they're skills could
accomplish, but it was a *LOT* faster (time was crucial in a lot of my
games) and you didn't risk losing that highly expensive (irreplaceable)
piece of equipment either. Some unskilled tasks became simple with the
range of powers available with spells, this resulted in stifling team
ingenuity.

Case in Point: one run had the team hemmed in by some blokes in an APC,
it was a good distance away, and no immediate threat, but if they got
rid of it, they'd have an easy escape route. The tech got his satchel
charge of thermite, gave it to the mage, who used telekinesis and
binoculars to put the small-hard-to-see-at-night package on top of the
APC where it was remote detonated, destroying the vehicle.
That task was accomplished far too easy, but could also be
accomplished with invisibility on the Stealth:6 Samurai, or a powerblast
on anyone who just appeared out (damaging some of the internal
equipment). The APC was appropriate equipment for the enemies they were
facing, and I had hoped they would have recognised the danger it
represented and either fled, or drew it out to a location where they
could ambush it.

> Threaten characters like that in
> subtle ways. Have a corp decker wipe out his bank
> account. Have the IRS audit him. Have the Feds blackmail
> him. Have someone kidnap a loved one. Have someone bribe
> him. Have someone poison his burger at Stuffer Shack... uh
> wait a minute ;)

The mage faced quite a lot of that, her daughter was kidnapped by a
corp. who wanted to keep her in line, her food was poisoned (with a
tracer) and this led to all her hideouts being discovered, her flat, and
her magic circles (no more elementals), including revealing most of the
teams identities, and their auras. She drew a lot of shit before someone
tested their bug detectors and gave her a laxative ;).

The team were *clever* : they usually burnt any sites where they were
injured (no DNA traces) sometimes just wrecked the entire building, they
laundered they're payments (credchip through fixer lose 10%) and
invested money in hard currency (gold, bearer bonds, etc.). An IRS Audit
would have done little, and wiping bank a/c's is virtually impossible in
my game (lost confidence in banks can ruin them-their systems are the
toughest, most aren't even on the net).

The point is that Magic makes everything too easy & convenient, every
other character learns skills, buy's equipment/cyber, and does the usual
difficult stuff to advance their abilities, mages can do easy stuff,
learn spells (low rating Astral Quests) without even spending Karma. I
have to come up with some very difficult obstacles just to prevent a
mage claening up the place; some of such obstacles would destroy SOD (eg
every gang can't have a mana barrier/cultured ivy to prevent astral
scanning).

Mages don't even have much to do with their money, everyone else is
buying tech and cyber, mages can easily save up for spare identities &
elemental ingredients.

It was just too much for me, and as for fragging someone with snipers/
panzers/artillery, that's something every character faced, and mages are
too inconspicuous (invisibility, concealment powers, not an obvious
threat) for snipers, and are too difficult to track down with a team.
The shaman made a name for herself by driving through the barrens on a
bicycle, with a city spirit to conceal herself and accelerate her
movement. In the same situation, a sam would be toast.

Richard.
Message no. 37
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 11:37:17 -0600 (MDT)
Richard M Conroy wrote:
|
[snip: good arguement on overall disruption of game balance
by magic with examples]

I hath mispoke myself.

So far the only spell problem that I've run into is Mind Probe. But from
your post I can see that I'm eventually going to run into problems in the
future. Could you, and anyone else, do me a favor and list those spells
that cause problems for the GM, and why? I'd like to try and get ahead of
the game (I'm allready playing catchup in regards to equipment and
cyberware :(

And back to the subject of challenges: here's a simple one that I used
years ago and just remembered. Nature. Problems with cyberware?
Lightning. Characters keep blowing through security? An earthquake
happens while they're inside the complex and now they have to dig their way
out. Nature can be a real bitch sometimes, and that's just some of the
basic stuff. Evolution of a virus (HIV) is something that you can't see
until it's too late.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 38
From: "John R. Wicker II" <jrwick00@********.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 13:58:10 -0400 (EDT)
>It was just too much for me, and as for fragging someone with snipers/
>panzers/artillery, that's something every character faced, and mages are
>too inconspicuous (invisibility, concealment powers, not an obvious
>threat) for snipers, and are too difficult to track down with a team.
>The shaman made a name for herself by driving through the barrens on a
>bicycle, with a city spirit to conceal herself and accelerate her
>movement. In the same situation, a sam would be toast.

If your players are at a level that requires an opposition made up of snipers/
panzers/artillery/mega-mages, then make them the opposition. No more runs to
the Stuffer Shack during a robbery. No more petty kidnappings involving the
team's favorite waitress. Make 'em run with the big dogs-- send them to
Chiba to get the newest Move by wire prototypes. Send 'em through Bug City
on an attempt to find and rescue Mitsuhama North America's VP of Research
and Development. Throw high level opposition at them from the get go, and
there'll be no questions of availability and competence on the side of the
NPC's.

If they don't *like* this level of gaming, tell them to get started with
character generation. In the mean time, read and re-read some of the
suggestions by list members.

Personally, I wouldn't suggest the actions requiring alteration of what's
available to the characters. Rather, re-read the rules concerning magical
and physical security. Know what makes magic work, and how its defeated or
interrupted. Check out Paranormal Animals for the latest in mage-attracted
pets. Use your imagination and don't constrain yourself just to the rules.

Finally, if the players figure out a way to defeat or bypass NPC opposition,
reward them! Its not a game meant for the "me against them" mentallity so if
they do a good thing, congratulate them and move on. So many folks around
here seem to be interested in keeping the players down for the sole reason
of making their lives as GM easier. Don't fall into that trap.


"If you aren't living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Embrace the revolution!"
-A found poem, 1995

This mail brought to you by: John R. Wicker II
Free-lance writer, Full time student, Founder: The Jagged Edge, Inc.
E-mail: jrwick00@***.uky.edu
Message no. 39
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 21:14:51 -0500
At 05:14 PM 7/31/96 PDT, you wrote:
>It wasn't the physical stuff... I mean I couldn't *CHALLENGE* them...

...

>The mage faced quite a lot of that, her daughter was kidnapped by a
>corp. who wanted to keep her in line, her food was poisoned (with a
>tracer) and this led to all her hideouts being discovered, her flat, and
>her magic circles (no more elementals), including revealing most of the
>teams identities, and their auras.

...

>The team were *clever*...

There comes a time when you should just start over. Your players seem like
good players, you seem to be able to pose good plot twists and ways of
getting at the characters, but the characters ('specially the two magicians)
have reached the high point of character development. Have the characters
saved up some money? Have they been running for a long time? Have they
thought about why thier characters took to the shadows and why they would
stop running?

Perhaps it's time to retire the characters.

Just tell your players, "Look, it's been a fun run - your characters have
gone from starting characters to uber-pcs. But your characters have gotten
too good - it's harder to think up a good challenge each week to oppose the
PCs. How about retiring the characters and start over with new, fresh to
the street characters?"

While you're running with the newer shadowrunners, you could also run with
the experienced crew maybe once every four game sessions or so. Because
your time between the experienced runs will be increased from a week to a
month (assuming you game every weekend), you'll have more time to come up
with better runs for that group.

>From reading your earlier posts, I got the impression you had four players.
If this is true, limit the number of magicians or non-physads to one. Or
none. Just to see how a non-magical group deals with a magical threat.

Oh - and anyone who is starting to GM, or is GMing right now, should really
have thier players write down the answers to the Twenty Questions in the
Character Generation before your next game session.

Hope this helps.
-Thomas Deeny
Art Director, K&L Advertising
Cartoonist at Large

"Oh happy day! I've discovered a surprise Ding Dong in my pants!"
-Robin Joynes' brother-in-law "Dave".
Message no. 40
From: CHARLIE@*******.com
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 22:25:57 -0400
At 09:14 PM 7/31/96 -0500, you wrote:
>At 05:14 PM 7/31/96 PDT, you wrote:
>>It wasn't the physical stuff... I mean I couldn't *CHALLENGE* them...
>
>...
>
>>The mage faced quite a lot of that, her daughter was kidnapped by a
>>corp. who wanted to keep her in line, her food was poisoned (with a
>>tracer) and this led to all her hideouts being discovered, her flat, and
>>her magic circles (no more elementals), including revealing most of the
>>teams identities, and their auras.
>
>...
>
>>The team were *clever*...
>
>There comes a time when you should just start over. Your players seem like
>good players, you seem to be able to pose good plot twists and ways of
>getting at the characters, but the characters ('specially the two magicians)
>have reached the high point of character development. Have the characters
>saved up some money? Have they been running for a long time? Have they
>thought about why thier characters took to the shadows and why they would
>stop running?
>
>Perhaps it's time to retire the characters.
>
>Just tell your players, "Look, it's been a fun run - your characters have
>gone from starting characters to uber-pcs. But your characters have gotten
>too good - it's harder to think up a good challenge each week to oppose the
>PCs. How about retiring the characters and start over with new, fresh to
>the street characters?"
>
>While you're running with the newer shadowrunners, you could also run with
>the experienced crew maybe once every four game sessions or so. Because
>your time between the experienced runs will be increased from a week to a
>month (assuming you game every weekend), you'll have more time to come up
>with better runs for that group.
>
>>From reading your earlier posts, I got the impression you had four players.
>If this is true, limit the number of magicians or non-physads to one. Or
>none. Just to see how a non-magical group deals with a magical threat.
>
>Oh - and anyone who is starting to GM, or is GMing right now, should really
>have thier players write down the answers to the Twenty Questions in the
>Character Generation before your next game session.
>
>Hope this helps.
>-Thomas Deeny
>Art Director, K&L Advertising
>Cartoonist at Large
>
>"Oh happy day! I've discovered a surprise Ding Dong in my pants!"
> -Robin Joynes' brother-in-law "Dave".
I may be a player, but, seeing as my GM is my brother, the problem is:try
doing that with people who have read the book cover-to-cover.....but still
don't understand what a shadowrun is......it's annoying.....I struggled to
explain it to one of my friends who is in my group today.......suggeestions?
Message no. 41
From: SINless@**.netcom.com (Ross Hammer)
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 21:10:23 -0700
David wrote:
>
>If you're GMing SR then GM SR, not AD%D. There are plenty
>of situations and stories that you can run that combat
>won't solve. Have fun :)
>

Hehe... that's what our GM thought...but our party proved him wrong. If
PC's are lookin' for a fight, then they're gonna find one... not that I
personally like that. That was the problem for me... it's too easy for
a couple players to turn a whole campaign into hack-n-slash. Basically,
I guess you just have to find a new group (but a little hard to do in a
twon of 3500... :( ...)

-SINless
Message no. 42
From: SINless@**.netcom.com (Ross Hammer)
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 21:38:10 -0700
John R. Wicker II wrote:
>
[snip how mages are over-powered for the competition]
>
>If your players are at a level that requires an opposition made up of snipers/
>panzers/artillery/mega-mages, then make them the opposition. No more runs to
>the Stuffer Shack during a robbery. No more petty kidnappings involving the
>team's favorite waitress. Make 'em run with the big dogs-- send them to
>Chiba to get the newest Move by wire prototypes. Send 'em through Bug City
>on an attempt to find and rescue Mitsuhama North America's VP of Research
>and Development. Throw high level opposition at them from the get go, and
>there'll be no questions of availability and competence on the side of the
>NPC's.
>

That'd work great... for an all-mage party... but what about your poor little
sammi who CAN'T take that kind of opposition. By stepping up the opposition to
meet the challenge of the mage, you leave the other arch types in a very
vulnerable position. If you DIDN'T have an all-mage party, you very likey will
soon after due to the untimely deaths that would follow.

-SINless
Message no. 43
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 11:39:15 +0100
David Buehrer said on 11:37/31 Jul 96...

> So far the only spell problem that I've run into is Mind Probe. But from
> your post I can see that I'm eventually going to run into problems in the
> future. Could you, and anyone else, do me a favor and list those spells
> that cause problems for the GM, and why? I'd like to try and get ahead of
> the game (I'm allready playing catchup in regards to equipment and
> cyberware :(

* Levitate Person: all your nice security fences mean jack shit when a
magician knows this (I speak of experience). A one-time fix is to string
monowire above the fence, but once one magician has had his legs chopped
off the others will clear the fence with a few meters to spare instead of
going only just over it.
Also the "Levitate enemy and drop him from 10 meters" approach is a nasty
one, especially because it does NOT require a voluntary target, no matter
what is said on this list. If you want to avoid players doing this, I
suggest *making* it require a voluntary target...

* Control Thoughts, or even worse, Mob Mind: NPCs will do whatever the
players want them to, including letting them into places they shouldn't
be. The only bright side to the use of this spell is that such situations
would often come up in areas with high magical security. But then there's
still the trouble with Mob Minding the gang that's come to kill the PCs...

* Mind Probe, obviously: just keep in mind that it requires the caster to
touch the target, and gives unpleasant personality shifts for a while (see
Plus Ca Change in SRII).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I've been searching most my life for anything to believe in,
like God or love or something -- any kind of simple solution.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 44
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Game Balance
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 96 10:27:15 EST
------------------this is a reply---
Richard M Conroy wrote:
|
[snip: good arguement on overall disruption of game balance
by magic with examples]

I hath mispoke myself.

So far the only spell problem that I've run into is Mind Probe. But from
your post I can see that I'm eventually going to run into problems in the
future. Could you, and anyone else, do me a favor and list those spells
that cause problems for the GM, and why? I'd like to try and get ahead of
the game (I'm allready playing catchup in regards to equipment and
cyberware :(

>>>>Improved willpower + 4, don't allow it
Bullet or other barriers on locks, beware.
Improved invis. on locks with rerolls for loads of successes
Combat sense and such, can give a lot of body dice.
Critter form spells!!!! beware of these!!! with a Wolf shaman
I have I spent time researching a force 11 version, then made it exclusive
& exp. fetish for force 15 [ok drain IS physical], spent 2 months learning
for that elusive TN 22 to learn it, and then put it into a lock using
rerolls [and 6 dice from magic pool]:
that gave the mage about + 9 to all physical attributes, a BIG boost to
initiative [your int as a bonus as well!!!] an an extra die in Wolf [what
else?] form for initiative, as they have a base of +2d6 initiative.
Spell locks are still active in that form, so I ended up REALL tough, and
got a "free" unarmed combat skill of around 19 [=reaction for critters]
without an ounce of cyberare!!

And back to the subject of challenges: here's a simple one that I used
years ago and just remembered. Nature. Problems with cyberware?
Lightning. Characters keep blowing through security? An earthquake
happens while they're inside the complex and now they have to dig their way
out. Nature can be a real bitch sometimes, and that's just some of the
basic stuff. Evolution of a virus (HIV) is something that you can't see
until it's too late.

>>> A bit coincidental, though if every time the players get
anywhere a natural disaster just "happens" at that precise moment. This
gets you arched eyebrows reallllll easy from your -by then not so friendly
players.

-David
--------------------------------------------------------

F.
----------------------------------------------
Message no. 45
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Game Balance
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 13:38:47 GMT
Ferri Pagano writes

>>>>>Improved willpower + 4, don't allow it
understandable.

> Bullet or other barriers on locks, beware.
> Improved invis. on locks with rerolls for loads of successes
> Combat sense and such, can give a lot of body dice.
> Critter form spells!!!! beware of these!!! with a Wolf shaman
> I have I spent time researching a force 11 version, then made it exclusive
> & exp. fetish for force 15 [ok drain IS physical], spent 2 months learning
> for that elusive TN 22 to learn it, and then put it into a lock using
> rerolls [and 6 dice from magic pool]:
> that gave the mage about + 9 to all physical attributes, a BIG boost to
> initiative [your int as a bonus as well!!!] an an extra die in Wolf [what
> else?] form for initiative, as they have a base of +2d6 initiative.
> Spell locks are still active in that form, so I ended up REALL tough, and
> got a "free" unarmed combat skill of around 19 [=reaction for critters]
> without an ounce of cyberare!!
>
ah looks like a shaman on the astral, 'someone shoot the wolf!' bang
AGH!!!! did you know wolves have no armour :) i have seen players
enjoy abusing this spell till they get attacked without armour (SR2
with no armour is DEADLY) or end up changed back and running about
naked.

Mark
Message no. 46
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 13:46:18 GMT
Gurth writes
>
> * Levitate Person: all your nice security fences mean jack shit when a
> magician knows this (I speak of experience). A one-time fix is to string
> monowire above the fence, but once one magician has had his legs chopped
> off the others will clear the fence with a few meters to spare instead of
> going only just over it.
yeah, the 'monowire in trees' scared them the first time, now folks
just blow up hedges in my corp compounds before they find out what i
hid inside :(

They want to fly over the fence eh, nice skylined target, not very
stealthy (though if you do as i do and combine with improved invis it
works a real treat). Hiding the main complex underground and avoid
roof entrances slows this one, sure the party with the mage gets over
the fence but a skilled sam could soon have beat the sensors and cut
it (leaving an escape route usable without having to have that
levitate spell handy) anyway, the first fence just keeps the trash
where it belongs.

> Also the "Levitate enemy and drop him from 10 meters" approach is a nasty
> one, especially because it does NOT require a voluntary target, no matter
> what is said on this list. If you want to avoid players doing this, I
> suggest *making* it require a voluntary target...
>
yeah, if something is nearby they can grab it but vs anything in the
open this just kills, 10m is kind :)

> * Control Thoughts, or even worse, Mob Mind:
tell me about it :(, i had a player find this, mass ganger/inocent
control.

> NPCs will do whatever the
> players want them to, including letting them into places they shouldn't
> be. The only bright side to the use of this spell is that such situations
> would often come up in areas with high magical security. But then there's
> still the trouble with Mob Minding the gang that's come to kill the PCs...
etc etc etc.....

>
> * Mind Probe, obviously: just keep in mind that it requires the caster to
> touch the target, and gives unpleasant personality shifts for a while (see
> Plus Ca Change in SRII).
>
also you get 2 questions then the target number goes up for 24hours.
its good but the person needs to be immobile really by which time the
same could just twist thier arm though admittedly mindprobes are more
reliable. Fortunately in my experience PC's have trouble finding the
right questions.

Mark
Message no. 47
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 15:12:04 +0000
On 31 Jul 96 at 22:25, CHARLIE@*******.com wrote:
[BIG snip]
> I may be a player, but, seeing as my GM is my brother, the problem is:try
> doing that with people who have read the book cover-to-cover.....but still
> don't understand what a shadowrun is......it's annoying.....I struggled to
> explain it to one of my friends who is in my group today.......suggeestions?
1st suggestion: Quote only the material you are refering to, and you'll have
more people who'll read through till _your_ lines :-)
2nd: Have you tried "Any movement, action or series of such made in carrying
out plans which are illegal or quasi-legal." yet? Refered to the differences
between a burglar and an armed robber? Did you point them to the movie
"Sneakers"? Or maybe - as the violent run - "The Rock"?

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 48
From: CHARLIE@*******.com
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 09:21:15 -0400
[SNIP OF MY STUFF]
>1st suggestion: Quote only the material you are refering to, and you'll have
>more people who'll read through till _your_ lines :-)
>2nd: Have you tried "Any movement, action or series of such made in carrying
>out plans which are illegal or quasi-legal." yet? Refered to the differences
>between a burglar and an armed robber? Did you point them to the movie
>"Sneakers"? Or maybe - as the violent run - "The Rock"?
>
> Sascha
Hmmm.....I should mention.....the kids I play with aren'r exactly
geniuses.....I'd just get a dumb look if I told them the definition of a
shadowrun......although, the movie references help.
Message no. 49
From: Technomancer <arvanit@***.uch.gr>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 17:52:46 +0300 (EET DST)
Another problem of the Mind Probe spell:
When cast, and even with 1 success, it allows the magician to read the
victims surface thoughts. So...
Someone asks the questions and the victim just brings the answers, or
parts of them, in his mind.
What can be done about it?

*********************************************************************
* Technomancer * Modesty is one of my countless virtues *
* arvanit@***.uch.gr *
* http://www.csd.uch.gr/~arvanit/ *
*********************************************************************
Message no. 50
From: "John R. Wicker II" <jrwick00@********.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 11:35:00 -0400 (EDT)
At 09:38 PM 7/31/96 -0700, you wrote:
>>If your players are at a level that requires an opposition made up of snipers/
>>panzers/artillery/mega-mages, then make them the opposition. No more runs to
>>the Stuffer Shack during a robbery. No more petty kidnappings involving the
>>team's favorite waitress. Make 'em run with the big dogs-- send them to
>>Chiba to get the newest Move by wire prototypes. Send 'em through Bug City
>>on an attempt to find and rescue Mitsuhama North America's VP of Research
>>and Development. Throw high level opposition at them from the get go, and
>>there'll be no questions of availability and competence on the side of the
>>NPC's.
>>
>That'd work great... for an all-mage party... but what about your poor little
>sammi who CAN'T take that kind of opposition. By stepping up the opposition to
>meet the challenge of the mage, you leave the other arch types in a very
>vulnerable position. If you DIDN'T have an all-mage party, you very likey will
>soon after due to the untimely deaths that would follow.

If you make a "poor little sami", then you get what you deserve.

All I can say to any of this is that after three days of reading about how
mages are so god-like, I can't scan it.

If the GM can't figure out a couple of ways to back the mages off, then they
should consider stepping down. Numerous posts have already mentioned how
mages can easily become walking targets, how they can attract attention from
all manner of folks, and how they can be forced into situations where they
won't be able to do their thing as well.

Further, if you think of your character as a set of stats and then compare
those stats to everyone else's, *someone* is going to come out on the bottom
of the heap.

Your sammy/decker/wimp/physad/nobody/loser/fill-in-the-blank needs to do his
or her thing outside of the character sheet. If you can't perform it by the
numbers then leave the numbers behind and use your head. If you're still
outsmarted, out-performed, and out-maneuvered, then find another group to
play with.

Mages have their niche, as do deckers, riggers, techies, and samurai. Do
your job and let other characters do theirs. As the GM, realize what the
players can do, and match them to that sort of a job.

In my opinion, which has been borne out by several years of gaming, the
rules are balanced *when they're followed*. If you ignore things, let stuff
slide, or introduce new things from other sources, things *will* get out of
whack unless you're very carefull.


John R. Wicker II
Customer Service Manager
ConstructionNet
Message no. 51
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[4]: Game Balance
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 96 17:56:32 EST
----rply---
Ferri Pagano writes

>>>>>Improved willpower + 4, don't allow it
understandable.

> Bullet or other barriers on locks, beware.
> Improved invis. on locks with rerolls for loads of successes
> Combat sense and such, can give a lot of body dice.
> Critter form spells!!!! beware of these!!! with a Wolf shaman
> I have I spent time researching a force 11 version, then made it exclusive
> & exp. fetish for force 15 [ok drain IS physical], spent 2 months learning
> for that elusive TN 22 to learn it, and then put it into a lock using
> rerolls [and 6 dice from magic pool]:
> that gave the mage about + 9 to all physical attributes, a BIG boost to
> initiative [your int as a bonus as well!!!] an an extra die in Wolf [what
> else?] form for initiative, as they have a base of +2d6 initiative.
> Spell locks are still active in that form, so I ended up REALL tough, and
> got a "free" unarmed combat skill of around 19 [=reaction for critters]
> without an ounce of cyberare!!
>
ah looks like a shaman on the astral, 'someone shoot the wolf!' bang
AGH!!!! did you know wolves have no armour :) i have seen players
enjoy abusing this spell till they get attacked without armour (SR2
with no armour is DEADLY) or end up changed back and running about
naked.

Mark
-----------------------------------------------------------
>>> That actually did happen once, when we got
ambushed, had to escape in owl form leaving all my possessions, and
getting naked to the rigger's van at night with no spells [no
fe3tishes] when it was -5 degrees, and having to endure her comments
for quite a while. [she almost shot that "naked man lurking around
her van :( ]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
About the armor thingie....

Sure I did, but as a proper munchkinizer I got an armorer contact to make me
armors for the wolf, paid at x100 though. :(
And you remember that bullet barrier lock that started this thread? Works fine
on wolves.
I also set on a shadow spell lock. and netted me a free intimidation skill:
Imagine: you walk down the street, minding your own business when then you see
an armored wolf, moving at around 70kph with a shimmering green aura surrounding
it, and the whole bathed in an unnatural shadow....
My GM had all people under professional rating 3 often just run away.

I've been a munchkin for a long time, and it's fun for a while. But your
adventures tend to involve too much combat then, I love making plans which
succeed because they were good plans, and not because My GM decided to just
allow me a "superman" type of creature/character.
For an example: I used that char. in a campaign as a protest, my GM had just
allowed a pc MAGE to merge with a spirit [force 12] and get WEAPON IMMUNITY!!!
And another pc to play a physad vampire!!! [prob the most powerful char in the
game, a physad with mist form!!!]
My point was proven when the campaign ended just one session further, as the GM
was unable to think of any non-great dragon challenges for that group.

My point is, and please remember it well: When a pc asks you to do/play
something you consider weird/powerful, don't answer inmediately, say you'll
think about it and answer him.her the next session, after you've had TIME to
consider the consequences!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ^ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ferri
Message no. 52
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Game Balance
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 96 18:02:39 EST
----------yep, this is a reply too----

[SNIP OF MY STUFF]
>1st suggestion: Quote only the material you are refering to, and you'll have
>more people who'll read through till _your_ lines :-)
>2nd: Have you tried "Any movement, action or series of such made in carrying
>out plans which are illegal or quasi-legal." yet? Refered to the differences
>between a burglar and an armed robber? Did you point them to the movie
>"Sneakers"? Or maybe - as the violent run - "The Rock"?
>
> Sascha
Hmmm.....I should mention.....the kids I play with aren'r exactly
geniuses.....I'd just get a dumb look if I told them the definition of a
shadowrun......although, the movie references help.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand completely what you mean..... ah, what I wouldn't do to get
good players......:(

I have fun with stupid remarks though, I write down the worst of them and
keep them handy, after some years I have quite a lot... I may post them
someday but I think I'd be lynched by some people... ;)

F.
Message no. 53
From: Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 96 17:57:00 PDT
John Wrote:

>If you make a "poor little sami", then you get what you deserve.

I've said on numerous occasions that there was nothing poor about this
little Sammi: he had spent an entire campaign maxing out, and was about
as nasty as anyone can possibly make.

>All I can say to any of this is that after three days of reading about
>how mages are so god-like, I can't scan it.

I guess you didn't read it too well, particularly some of my
posts/requests

>If the GM can't figure out a couple of ways to back the mages off, then
>they should consider stepping down. Numerous posts have already
>mentioned how mages can easily become walking targets, how they can
>attract attention from all manner of folks, and how they can be forced
>into situations where they won't be able to do their thing as well.

You just missed the whole point of my original request: how do you
contain mages, balancing them with the other characters, *WITHOUT*
resorting to fragging them. Suddenly loading a heap of grief on a
player simply because they legitimately became powerful through the
games own rules and their own smarts is a sign of an immature GM,
these things should be resolved better than this.
Many of the mage restrictions that many of you mentioned
came from supplements that I didn't have access to/weren't even
published at the time of my campaign. A lot others are too much
like GM frags, or could easily be overcome by a cautious player.

>Further, if you think of your character as a set of stats and then
>compare those stats to everyone else's, *someone* is going to come out
>on the bottom of the heap.

I'm not even talking stats. I'm not talking about minor (acceptable)
differences in power/ability between the various classes. I'm talking
about a badly balanced power level, where a mage can quite easily,
using legitimate rules, make the majority of a team redundant.

>Your sammy/decker/wimp/physad/nobody/loser/fill-in-the-blank needs to
>do his or her thing outside of the character sheet. If you can't
>perform it by the numbers then leave the numbers behind and use your
>head. If you're still outsmarted, out-performed, and out-maneuvered,
>then find another group to play with.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't call my players competency into
question. I have specified often enough that these people were *clever*,
the numbers were rairly used, by and large most of the planning were
done by the fixer & the merc. This was quality stuff, not dice-rolling
rubbish, and *they* recognised very quickly that the mage could
accomplish far more than they could. They were the only group I ever ran
that could keep up with my devious mind, so don't insinuate that they
were only roll- players. ALL of the core players had GMed before; four
of them had done so very regularly, or were still doing so.

>Mages have their niche, as do deckers, riggers, techies, and samurai.
>Do your job and let other characters do theirs. As the GM, realize what
>the players can do, and match them to that sort of a job.

All my adventures were multi-functional: every character had a role to
play, I made certain of it, all of the core players filled out their
characters responsibilities to the last.

Mages are the most versatile characters: their range of abilities can
make almost every other characters abilities redundant. Telekinesis
can deliver high explosives to their target with no scatter, even
gunnery:6 would be pushed to do that. Invisibility is better than
stealth, no contest. And even the Orc's Interrogation (Torture Assisted)
Skill 4:6 paled in significance to Mind Probe. Spells can duplicate
skills easily & cheaply. Skills are expensive, a lot must be invested
in them at character generation, and they are difficult to improve, when
you select a skill, you are defining your character, because of the
amount of potential you are placing in them. Spells are cheap, period.

I'm not even taking mages combat abilities into account, or initiation
or conjuring or whatever.

>In my opinion, which has been borne out by several years of gaming, the
>rules are balanced *when they're followed*. If you ignore things, let
>stuff slide, or introduce new things from other sources, things *will*
>get out of whack unless you're very carefull.

Balanced ? Hardly. And as for using *other* source material, the mage
hadn't even got to use most of the Grimoire, she'd just initiated, but
didn't have Karma left to get any of the powerful stuff it endowed ie
the mage was living on the basic SR2 rules. The Sams, eventually had
free run of most of the stuff they could afford ~ I didn't care, they
were still scared of bomb's, heavy weapons & multiple opponents.

The merc, as maxed out as he could get with the rules was no competition
for the mage who was fairly unchanged since character generation.

So don't tell me that Mage's have just a "niche" - the only thing they
can't accomplish is decking.

Richard.
O--------------------------------------------------------------------O
\Food for thought lies in the\Richard_M_Conroy@\Roadkill on the Info \
\depth of an inedible brick. \ccm.ir.intel.com \-rmation SuperHighway\
O-------------------------------------------------------------------O
Message no. 54
From: James Ojaste <jojaste@*****.csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 15:24:27 -0400 (EDT)
> >All I can say to any of this is that after three days of reading about
> >how mages are so god-like, I can't scan it.
> I guess you didn't read it too well, particularly some of my
> posts/requests

I have to agree with him - all this complaining about mages is getting
staler than the "Does a laser axe hurt a spirit" argument. :-)

> >If the GM can't figure out a couple of ways to back the mages off, then
> >they should consider stepping down. Numerous posts have already
> You just missed the whole point of my original request: how do you
> contain mages, balancing them with the other characters, *WITHOUT*
> resorting to fragging them. Suddenly loading a heap of grief on a
> player simply because they legitimately became powerful through the
> games own rules and their own smarts is a sign of an immature GM,
> these things should be resolved better than this.

As Robin Williams once said: "INFINITE COSMIC POWER! *teeny weeny
living space*". Every advantage has a disadvantage. For sams, this
tends to be stuff like:
1) the younger "generation" wanting to make a name for themselves by
geeking somebody powerful
2) one of the many corps who the sam has offended, looking for some
payback
3) getting hired for more and more dangerous missions - nobody else
can handle it...

For a mage, you get to do fun things with spirits, other mages, etc.
Note that a lot of the stuff that applies to sams also applies to
mages. However, since mages get more power, they should get more
restrictions. This *isn't* to frag the mage, it's a natural
consequence of having lots of power - who's a more likely target
for assasination: the president of the US or a shoe store clerk?

> Many of the mage restrictions that many of you mentioned
> came from supplements that I didn't have access to/weren't even
> published at the time of my campaign. A lot others are too much
> like GM frags, or could easily be overcome by a cautious player.

Well, if they're being cautious, then they're not doing much
shadowrunning (ie a retired character), or they're relying more
heavily on more mundane skills. Win-win.

> >Mages have their niche, as do deckers, riggers, techies, and samurai.
> >Do your job and let other characters do theirs. As the GM, realize what
> >the players can do, and match them to that sort of a job.
> Mages are the most versatile characters: their range of abilities can
> make almost every other characters abilities redundant. Telekinesis

Well, not quite. What about when the party needs to impress a
sharp-shooter NPC with their firearms skills? Or when they need
to sell something? Or rig an entire building to explode? Or drive
the getaway car faster and better than the Lone Star patrol car
right behind them?

There are a lot of abilities that most mages aren't so good at. Sure,
they can learn the skills, but then they're not using that karma to
learn spells.

> can deliver high explosives to their target with no scatter, even
> gunnery:6 would be pushed to do that. Invisibility is better than
> stealth, no contest. And even the Orc's Interrogation (Torture Assisted)

I'd have to disagree - thermo looks right through invis, but might not
notice someone who is being stealthy (because they're hiding their
body-heat behind car engines, etc).

> Skill 4:6 paled in significance to Mind Probe. Spells can duplicate

Unless you don't quite know exactly what questions to ask. Some poor
guy being tortured is much more likely to actively try to dredge things
up that might be even remotely interesting.

> skills easily & cheaply. Skills are expensive, a lot must be invested
> in them at character generation, and they are difficult to improve, when
> you select a skill, you are defining your character, because of the
> amount of potential you are placing in them. Spells are cheap, period.

Isn't defining your character an extremely important part of roleplaying
to you? It's hard to roleplay effectively when you don't know what
your character is capable of... Spells may be relatively cheap, but if
the GM isn't forcing the characters to buy up skills that they really
*have* been improving, and the players are saving up until they can
buy that force 20 manaball, the GM had better make it almost impossible
to get. Sure, they can buy lots of low-powered spells, but characters can
also buy lots of low-level skills cheaply.

> >In my opinion, which has been borne out by several years of gaming, the
> >rules are balanced *when they're followed*. If you ignore things, let
> >stuff slide, or introduce new things from other sources, things *will*
> >get out of whack unless you're very carefull.
>
> Balanced ? Hardly. And as for using *other* source material, the mage
> hadn't even got to use most of the Grimoire, she'd just initiated, but
> didn't have Karma left to get any of the powerful stuff it endowed ie
> the mage was living on the basic SR2 rules. The Sams, eventually had
> free run of most of the stuff they could afford ~ I didn't care, they
> were still scared of bomb's, heavy weapons & multiple opponents.
>
> The merc, as maxed out as he could get with the rules was no competition
> for the mage who was fairly unchanged since character generation.

I'm sorry, but that's either an inexperienced merc or a really gross
mage. In a mage vs. merc battle (not a showdown, but say, competing
contracts), the mage has to find the merc and get pretty close and
vice versa. A sniper rifle from a long way away or a manabolt - it's
all the same.

> So don't tell me that Mage's have just a "niche" - the only thing they
> can't accomplish is decking.

And the only thing a merc can't accomplish is magic. Yes, magic is
powerful, but a sammy with an average initiative >30 is pretty gross
too.

James
Message no. 55
From: "Terry L. Amburgey" <xanth@********.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 16:36:25 -0400
At 05:57 PM 8/1/96 PDT, you wrote:

>Mages are the most versatile characters: their range of abilities can
>make almost every other characters abilities redundant. Telekinesis
>can deliver high explosives to their target with no scatter, even
>gunnery:6 would be pushed to do that. Invisibility is better than
>stealth, no contest. And even the Orc's Interrogation (Torture Assisted)
>Skill 4:6 paled in significance to Mind Probe. Spells can duplicate
>skills easily & cheaply. Skills are expensive, a lot must be invested
>in them at character generation, and they are difficult to improve, when
>you select a skill, you are defining your character, because of the
>amount of potential you are placing in them. Spells are cheap, period.

How do these super mages get all these abilities? I can see a mana-slinger
picking up lotso-spells over time with big time expenditure of karma but
what was everyone else doing with THEIR karma? Why weren't they advancing
their skills while the mage was collecting spells? BTW did you go
by-the-book on learning new spells? Picking up new low level spells isn't
too bad but high level spells are a bear. TN to learn a new force 6 spell
was tough for my mage.

The mages-are-overpowered thread is not new by any means; if you are a
believer I won't try to change your mind. However lots of us have reason to
believe otherwise.
Terry
Terry L. Amburgey Email: xanth@***.uky.edu
Associate Professor Phone: (606) 257-7726
College of Business and Economics Fax: (606) 257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506-0034
Message no. 56
From: Rick Jones <rick@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 17:15:43 -0500 (CDT)
Terry L. Amburgey wrote:
> How do these super mages get all these abilities? I can see a mana-slinger
> picking up lotso-spells over time with big time expenditure of karma but
> what was everyone else doing with THEIR karma? Why weren't they advancing
> their skills while the mage was collecting spells? BTW did you go
> by-the-book on learning new spells? Picking up new low level spells isn't
> too bad but high level spells are a bear. TN to learn a new force 6 spell
> was tough for my mage.

*Exactly*. Even with the high co$t of raising skills, mages' skill
levels aren't going to raise as high as everyone else, since they have to
spend it on spells, foci, initiation, etc.

However, here's one of my house rules: Mages only get the "super-duper"
skills with initiation at the rate of 1/new grade. It made a lot more
sense to me, that a mage just spends a few Karma and becomes MEGA-MAGE.
This way, they advance slowly through the ranks.

I also force the mages to initiate when they've spent enough time in their
Orders to "deserve" a new grade. That way, it becomes part of the
roleplaying story. Once, a mage in the group was asked to do a shadowrun
for a society member in return for the member's patronage into the higher
orders. That same mage also takes forever to learn new high power spells
because he just keeps blowing die rolls.

--
Rick Jones This universe contains puzzles beyond the ken of
rick@******.com science. We must expect encounters that are not
Meyrick@***.com merely strange and mysterious, but downright goofy.
http://www-ece.rice.edu/~rickj/ -Andrew Solberg
Message no. 57
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 08:18:21 +1000 (EST)
> So don't tell me that Mage's have just a "niche" - the only thing they
> can't accomplish is decking.

They often don't make good riggers, either.

"So, what did you say that pedal did?" :)



Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
Heisenberg may have slept here.
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
I don't have enemies, it's just that my best friends
are trying to kill me.
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 58
From: "John R. Wicker II" <jrwick00@********.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 18:19:50 -0400 (EDT)
>>If you make a "poor little sami", then you get what you deserve.
>
>I've said on numerous occasions that there was nothing poor about this
>little Sammi: he had spent an entire campaign maxing out, and was about
>as nasty as anyone can possibly make.

I just wrote a bunch of replies to each and every point you brought up, but
instead I think I'll just say this:

I wasn't replying to you, I wasn't talking to you, and I'm not getting into
it. You're either not listening or you've got an idea about the way
Shadowrun works that the rest of us don't share. We've made countless
suggestions on how things work in *our* various campaigns, and they seem to
have matched up pretty well. Since you don't think they'll work in *your*
campaign, I don't see much reason in wasting any more bandwidth.


"If you aren't living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Embrace the revolution!"
-A found poem, 1995

This mail brought to you by: John R. Wicker II
Free-lance writer, Full time student, Founder: The Jagged Edge, Inc.
E-mail: jrwick00@***.uky.edu
Message no. 59
From: Marc Lipshitz <MLIPSHIT@****.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 08:17:39 +0200
>>> John R. Wicker II <jrwick00@********.uky.edu> 1/August/1996
Your sammy/decker/wimp/physad/nobody/loser/fill-in-the-blank needs to
do his or her thing outside of the character sheet. If you can't perform it
by the numbers then leave the numbers behind and use your head. If
you're still outsmarted, out-performed, and out-maneuvered, then find
another group to play with.
*********************************

Makes me think of our last run. I'm running a decker and I end up guarding
a box with an Ares Predator in my hand. Geez, without the skillwires I
would have no skill in that at all, and my wires are only rating 3. The run
was great fun, even though I wasn't really equipped for that kind of thing.
Hell, you don't always have to be the first line of defence for the party.

Marc
Message no. 60
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 11:48:36 +0100
Technomancer said on 17:52/ 1 Aug 96...

> Another problem of the Mind Probe spell:
> When cast, and even with 1 success, it allows the magician to read the
> victims surface thoughts. So...
> Someone asks the questions and the victim just brings the answers, or
> parts of them, in his mind.
> What can be done about it?

Not much, I guess. Just about the only defense I can think of is the
touch-required nature of the spell -- if you can't touch the target when
the question is asked, the spell will fail to give you an answer (now
watch players design limited-range Mind Probe spells...)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I can give it up any time.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 61
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 11:48:36 +0100
Terry L. Amburgey said on 16:36/ 1 Aug 96...

> How do these super mages get all these abilities? I can see a mana-slinger
> picking up lotso-spells over time with big time expenditure of karma but
> what was everyone else doing with THEIR karma? Why weren't they advancing
> their skills while the mage was collecting spells? BTW did you go
> by-the-book on learning new spells? Picking up new low level spells isn't
> too bad but high level spells are a bear. TN to learn a new force 6 spell
> was tough for my mage.

I have to agree with Terry. Other characters tend to use Karma to increase
their Attributes and skills, plus buy new skills, whereas magicians always
have too little Karma in my experience. Sure they may kick ass with their
spells, but from what I've seen it's usually a careful decision about
which spells to take, and at what Force so it's still a usable spell but
doesn't take too long to learn.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I can give it up any time.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 62
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 13:27:37 GMT
Gurth writes
>
mind probe spells.

> Not much, I guess. Just about the only defense I can think of is the
> touch-required nature of the spell -- if you can't touch the target when
> the question is asked, the spell will fail to give you an answer (now
> watch players design limited-range Mind Probe spells...)
>
And watch that drain! Though its a very handy trick.

Mark
Message no. 63
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Re[4]: Game Balance
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 13:39:30 GMT
Ferri Pagano writes

> Sure I did, but as a proper munchkinizer I got an armorer contact to make me
> armors for the wolf, paid at x100 though. :(
ouch!

> And you remember that bullet barrier lock that started this thread? Works fine
> on wolves.
sure, i just hope i don't see any wth that.
I just had a good idea involving a physical illusion and a spell
lock, drop wolf form engage 'i have cloathes on' illusion! There are
even temperature altering spells you keep you warm and nutrition out
of awakenings is really going to put the downer to 'now survive the
wilderness'.

> I also set on a shadow spell lock. and netted me a free intimidation skill:
> Imagine: you walk down the street, minding your own business when then you see
> an armored wolf, moving at around 70kph with a shimmering green aura surrounding
> it, and the whole bathed in an unnatural shadow....
> My GM had all people under professional rating 3 often just run away.
>
Don't blame them, but how many phoned in a 'code 99, magic!' to lone
star? :), you should attract a cop convention if you do that in a
moderately good part of town.

> I've been a munchkin for a long time, and it's fun for a while. But your
> adventures tend to involve too much combat then, I love making plans which
> succeed because they were good plans, and not because My GM decided to just
> allow me a "superman" type of creature/character.
> For an example: I used that char. in a campaign as a protest, my GM had just
> allowed a pc MAGE to merge with a spirit [force 12] and get WEAPON IMMUNITY!!!
A point at which i tend to lose interest in even hearing about the
game.

> And another pc to play a physad vampire!!! [prob the most powerful char in the
> game, a physad with mist form!!!]
I had a CP2020 character with the phi power to go full astral, oh
i'll start the combat with a katana at the oppositions throat, oh
dear.

> My point was proven when the campaign ended just one session further, as the GM
> was unable to think of any non-great dragon challenges for that group.
>
Yeah, think, no we'll just blow up thier archology, yawn.....

> My point is, and please remember it well: When a pc asks you to do/play
> something you consider weird/powerful, don't answer inmediately, say you'll
> think about it and answer him.her the next session, after you've had TIME to
> consider the consequences!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ^ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
Always a good idea, and one no doubt we all forget far too often
(though some are going to be lots better than others).

Mark
Message no. 64
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Game Balance
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 16:38:22 +0000
On 1 Aug 96 at 18:02, Ferri Pagano wrote:
[on Players]
> I have fun with stupid remarks though, I write down the worst of them and
> keep them handy, after some years I have quite a lot... I may post them
> someday but I think I'd be lynched by some people... ;)
Do it! Do it! Please! :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 65
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 18:31:41 +0000
On 2 Aug 96 at 11:48, Gurth wrote:
[Mages using karma to learn spells and initiate]
> I have to agree with Terry. Other characters tend to use Karma to increase
> their Attributes and skills, plus buy new skills, whereas magicians always
> have too little Karma in my experience. Sure they may kick ass with their
> spells, but from what I've seen it's usually a careful decision about
> which spells to take, and at what Force so it's still a usable spell but
> doesn't take too long to learn.
... most important IMHO is still how to use the skills. One can't cast a mind
probe on a contact w/out loosing that contact, and a manaball in a bar brawl
is a bad idea, too. Sure - with my Manaball Force 7 and Lvl 3 Focus I _can_
kick ass in combat, but a situation where I can use this spell has still to
come.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 66
From: dmccraw@*****.aix.calpoly.edu
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 16:50:55 -0700 (PDT)
In a previous letter,
>
>Technomancer said on 17:52/ 1 Aug 96...
>
>> Another problem of the Mind Probe spell:
>> When cast, and even with 1 success, it allows the magician to read the
>> victims surface thoughts. So...
>> Someone asks the questions and the victim just brings the answers, or
>> parts of them, in his mind.
>> What can be done about it?
>

I character with a strong willpower can keep thoughts from surfacing.
This only works if the victim is aware that he needs to be careful about
his thoughts.
What about insane victims? That could screw up a mage pretty bad.

Dustin
--
???? ????
? ? The key to success is knowledge, ? ?
? now where is that lock....? ?
* Dustin J. McCraw dmccraw@****.calpoly.edu *
Message no. 67
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 96 12:09:57 +1100
>How do these super mages get all these abilities? I can see a mana-slinger
>picking up lotso-spells over time with big time expenditure of karma but
>what was everyone else doing with THEIR karma? Why weren't they advancing
>their skills while the mage was collecting spells? BTW did you go
>by-the-book on learning new spells? Picking up new low level spells isn't
>too bad but high level spells are a bear. TN to learn a new force 6 spell
>was tough for my mage.

That's what fetishes are for... actually, though, the easiest way to
restrict spell learning (in mages, anyway) is to restrict the
availability of hermetic libraries. In my game, a hermetic library of
Rating 8 would be about the most a player could reasonably get. 10+ are
the exclusive property of large organisations and the ultra-rich. This
lets my NPC mages toss around far more powerful spells than the PC mages
('cause the NPC mages do have access to the grimoires). Sure, the NPC
mage might be hurting, but the PC mage would be worse.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 68
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: Re[4]: Game Balance
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 96 12:30:21 +1100
>I just had a good idea involving a physical illusion and a spell
>lock, drop wolf form engage 'i have cloathes on' illusion! There are
>even temperature altering spells you keep you warm and nutrition out
>of awakenings is really going to put the downer to 'now survive the
>wilderness'.

"Survive the wilderness but watch out for that roving pack of dzoo-no-qua
out there that just LOVES to munch on mage meat"?


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 69
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 12:09:24 +0100
Sascha Pabst said on 18:31/ 2 Aug 96...

> ... most important IMHO is still how to use the skills. One can't cast a mind
> probe on a contact w/out loosing that contact, and a manaball in a bar brawl
> is a bad idea, too. Sure - with my Manaball Force 7 and Lvl 3 Focus I _can_
> kick ass in combat, but a situation where I can use this spell has still to
> come.

I've seen that happen once, with Mana Cloud but that's functionally
identical to Manaball anyway. Force 4, expendable fetish, and around 8
pool dice wiped out half the visitors to a nightclub...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't waste your time with your visions of the future and your party lines.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 70
From: pbailey@***.ipswichcity.qld.gov.au (Peter Bailey)
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 96 20:25:21
Hi Richard,

>
> > Don't run a combat game.
>
> I actually didn't, I ran quite a lot of investigation missions,
> most of which were well thought out, had plenty of depth, clues, red
> herrings, sub-plots and 3rd parties. Many of these missions were reduced
> to nothing by mages (spirit/Watcher(plural)) search for this person:
> made getaways fairly pathetic).

That's one grunty mage you're talking there. If any individual is hidden
underground even, that's the end of a spirit finding them. As for searches
by magic, that can be fairly limited at times. Especially if the missing
party is a ways away.

> > You're complaining that you
> > can't threaten the mage physicaly without maintaining game
> > balance.
>
> It wasn't the physical stuff... I mean I couldn't *CHALLENGE* them, PC
> Interrogation could be solved by an appropriate spell, astral scanning
> is a hell of a lot more effective at scoping an area than the combined
> efforts of binoculars, microphones (laser/shotgun), and hacking the

Correct. That's one of the big advantages of haveing a mage on board. But
don't forget the things like FAT bacteria, wards, watch critters. This at
the least alerts the guards that something is happening.

> security cameras. Everything became remotely simple with magic, you can
> accomplish quite a lot of tasks easily (interrogation, searching,
> stealth, telekinesis, levitation) without the need for actually learning
> an appropriate skill or owning appropriate (expensive) equipment.

Ensure that you are using all the appropriate target number modifiers. The
game becomes dead easy for the PC's if you don't.

> The team quickly learned that all those skills they spent learning
> became fairly silly compared with what could routinely be accomplished
> with magic, it also meant that you didn't have to carry as much
> equipment. Generally runs degenerated into letting the mage do
> everything, it may not be *AS* good as what they're skills could

What happened to drain?

> accomplish, but it was a *LOT* faster (time was crucial in a lot of my
> games) and you didn't risk losing that highly expensive (irreplaceable)
> piece of equipment either. Some unskilled tasks became simple with the
> range of powers available with spells, this resulted in stifling team
> ingenuity.

At what level did you set your target numbers? High tech stuff has a much
higher target number remember.

> Case in Point: one run had the team hemmed in by some blokes in an APC,
> it was a good distance away, and no immediate threat, but if they got
> rid of it, they'd have an easy escape route. The tech got his satchel
> charge of thermite, gave it to the mage, who used telekinesis and
> binoculars to put the small-hard-to-see-at-night package on top of the
> APC where it was remote detonated, destroying the vehicle.

If it was "hard to see at night" how did the mage see well enough to place
the satchel? Did the mage just drop it on top? What demolitions skill did
he use? Didn't the vehicle have any armour at all?

> That task was accomplished far too easy, but could also be
> accomplished with invisibility on the Stealth:6 Samurai, or a powerblast
> on anyone who just appeared out (damaging some of the internal

Again, if it was night time. How did the mage see the opposition? Were you
introducing the visibility target number modifiers? Were you introducing
the distance target number modifiers? Drain? Was there any magical backup
for the goons?

> equipment). The APC was appropriate equipment for the enemies they were
> facing, and I had hoped they would have recognised the danger it
> represented and either fled, or drew it out to a location where they
> could ambush it.

This is going to sound harsh, but if the APC was a threat, how come they
didn't have enough magical backup to defend them?

> > Threaten characters like that in
> > subtle ways. Have a corp decker wipe out his bank
> > account. Have the IRS audit him. Have the Feds blackmail
> > him. Have someone kidnap a loved one. Have someone bribe
> > him. Have someone poison his burger at Stuffer Shack... uh
> > wait a minute ;)
>
> The mage faced quite a lot of that, her daughter was kidnapped by a
> corp. who wanted to keep her in line, her food was poisoned (with a
> tracer) and this led to all her hideouts being discovered, her flat, and
> her magic circles (no more elementals), including revealing most of the
> teams identities, and their auras. She drew a lot of shit before someone
> tested their bug detectors and gave her a laxative ;).

Creative. :) That's the sort of thing a good team does.

> The team were *clever* : they usually burnt any sites where they were
> injured (no DNA traces) sometimes just wrecked the entire building, they
> laundered they're payments (credchip through fixer lose 10%) and

They only lose 10% laundering their money? Geez, my team usually gets 10%
back after the laundering process.

> invested money in hard currency (gold, bearer bonds, etc.). An IRS Audit
> would have done little, and wiping bank a/c's is virtually impossible in
> my game (lost confidence in banks can ruin them-their systems are the
> toughest, most aren't even on the net).

Hmm, gold?, bearer bonds? Sounds like just the thing for a little organised
criminal to target. All that juicy cash just waiting to be stolen. Or even
an enterprising white collar criminal..... :)

> The point is that Magic makes everything too easy & convenient, every
> other character learns skills, buy's equipment/cyber, and does the usual
> difficult stuff to advance their abilities, mages can do easy stuff,
> learn spells (low rating Astral Quests) without even spending Karma. I

Without spending karma!?!?! Where does it say that? Grimmy p97 says that a
magician can journey to the metaplane most appropriate to that spell and
learn it there. That (to me at least) does NOT mean no karma expended. It
simply means you do not need to employ someone to teach you that spell.

> have to come up with some very difficult obstacles just to prevent a
> mage claening up the place; some of such obstacles would destroy SOD (eg
> every gang can't have a mana barrier/cultured ivy to prevent astral
> scanning).

No, but some have some corker wizkid talent. Enough of that can really ruin
his day. Particularly if they get together and do some ritual stuff.

> Mages don't even have much to do with their money, everyone else is
> buying tech and cyber, mages can easily save up for spare identities &
> elemental ingredients.

And bikes/cars, foci, etc. etc.

> It was just too much for me, and as for fragging someone with snipers/
> panzers/artillery, that's something every character faced, and mages are
> too inconspicuous (invisibility, concealment powers, not an obvious
> threat) for snipers, and are too difficult to track down with a team.
> The shaman made a name for herself by driving through the barrens on a
> bicycle, with a city spirit to conceal herself and accelerate her
> movement. In the same situation, a sam would be toast.

If a sam had done the same thing he would have ridden a beat up old
bicycle, and made himself look the part and ridden through without the
tell-tale shimmer given off by the spirit. In my game, the sammy would have
had the better chance of making it through. Most people have seen mages in
a terrible light courtesy of the trid. The people in the barrens see a
shimmer like a spirit, they shoot at it out of pure fear.

Public opinion can be a terrible and controlling thing. A few features on
the trid of people being stoned for throwing a combat spell ought to pull
in a few heads..... :)

--

Internet: pbailey@***.com.au Fidonet: 3:640/281.3

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Member Team AMIGA
Message no. 71
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 09:55:44 -0400 (EDT)
At 08:25 PM 8/1/96, Peter wrote:
>Richard wrote:,

>> The shaman made a name for herself by driving through the barrens on a
>> bicycle, with a city spirit to conceal herself and accelerate her
>> movement. In the same situation, a sam would be toast.
>
>If a sam had done the same thing he would have ridden a beat up old
>bicycle, and made himself look the part and ridden through without the
>tell-tale shimmer given off by the spirit. In my game, the sammy would have
>had the better chance of making it through. Most people have seen mages in
>a terrible light courtesy of the trid. The people in the barrens see a
>shimmer like a spirit, they shoot at it out of pure fear.

I just noticed something; the concealment power doesn't work on moving things!

I'm not sure if people could even see the shimmering, moving at that speed.

--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484
Message no. 72
From: "Terry L. Amburgey" <xanth@********.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 16:51:34 -0400 (EDT)
At 12:09 PM 8/3/96 +1100, you wrote:

>That's what fetishes are for... actually, though, the easiest way to
>restrict spell learning (in mages, anyway) is to restrict the
>availability of hermetic libraries. In my game, a hermetic library of
>Rating 8 would be about the most a player could reasonably get. 10+ are
>the exclusive property of large organisations and the ultra-rich. This
>lets my NPC mages toss around far more powerful spells than the PC mages
>('cause the NPC mages do have access to the grimoires). Sure, the NPC
>mage might be hurting, but the PC mage would be worse.

Yup, fetishes help...until you've used the last scroll or the wand gets
broken <grin>. To my mind, a spell-slinger that needs lot's of crutches is
easily dead meat in the hands of a gm, so the 'supermage' problem is easy to
deal with [of course that's what I was implying to begin with].

Given the cost of libraries, you don't have to do very much *extra* to keep
them out of the hands of pc's, if they don't get them at character creation.
Terry

Terry L. Amburgey
Associate Professor of Management
College of Business and Economics
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506-0034
Phone: 606-257-7726
Fax: 606-257-3577
Message no. 73
From: rhoded01@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Ahzmandius)
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 19:04:38 -0600 (CST)
>In a previous letter,
>>
>>Technomancer said on 17:52/ 1 Aug 96...
>>
>>> Another problem of the Mind Probe spell:
>>> When cast, and even with 1 success, it allows the magician to read the
>>> victims surface thoughts. So...
>>> Someone asks the questions and the victim just brings the answers, or
>>> parts of them, in his mind.
>>> What can be done about it?




We are dealing with this in the following way: A) the mage never knows how
many successes were rolled (the gm makes the roll). B) Keep the players in
the dark by the way the answers are phrased. You ask "who is responsible for
_____" the victim responds that it was Wyvren ( a nickname that is
unfamiliar).C) the number of successes determines how many questions are
answered. D) GM decides not to upset the storyline and gives bad guy an
extra bonus.

GM's, on this list seem to have a problem with the concept of "ALL
POWERFUL". Don't let the players control the game with rules that disrupt
the balance of the game. ROLLPLAYING, ROLLPLAYING, ROLLPLAYING....make the
players work for things. If they want to be a statistic, rule oriented
characters, I recomend the SEGA version of the game.

Ahzmandius
Message no. 74
From: "Terry L. Amburgey" <xanth@********.uky.edu>
Subject: Game Balance
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 13:25:59 -0400 (EDT)
At 07:04 PM 8/3/96 -0600, you wrote:

>We are dealing with this in the following way: A) the mage never knows how
>many successes were rolled (the gm makes the roll). B) Keep the players in
>the dark by the way the answers are phrased. You ask "who is responsible for
>_____" the victim responds that it was Wyvren ( a nickname that is
>unfamiliar).C) the number of successes determines how many questions are
>answered. D) GM decides not to upset the storyline and gives bad guy an
>extra bonus.
>
>GM's, on this list seem to have a problem with the concept of "ALL
>POWERFUL". Don't let the players control the game with rules that disrupt
>the balance of the game. ROLLPLAYING, ROLLPLAYING, ROLLPLAYING....make the
>players work for things. If they want to be a statistic, rule oriented
>characters, I recomend the SEGA version of the game.
>
>Ahzmandius

As your own post pointed out, it's not 'rules that disrupt the balance of
the game 'it's.......[climbing on soapbox].......not using the rules that
disrupt the balance of the game. People [Marc is a good example] have
pointed out the many ways that the rules as written provide balance. The
modifiers and target numbers aren't that hard to remember....how hard can it
be to have stuff happen at night with rain in Seattle. I admit to a problem
with D. Who gives a frag about "the storyline"; change the storyline instead
of fudging the dice roll with ad hoc 'bonuses'...[climbs off soapbox]. Terry


Terry L. Amburgey
Associate Professor of Management
College of Business and Economics
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506-0034
Phone: 606-257-7726
Fax: 606-257-3577
Message no. 75
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 16:01:22 -0400 (EDT)
At 07:04 PM 8/3/96 -0600, Ahz wrote:
>>>Technomancer said on 17:52/ 1 Aug 96...

>>>> Another problem of the Mind Probe spell:
>>>> When cast, and even with 1 success, it allows the magician to read the
>>>> victims surface thoughts. So...
>>>> Someone asks the questions and the victim just brings the answers, or
>>>> parts of them, in his mind.
>>>> What can be done about it?
>
>We are dealing with this in the following way: A) the mage never knows how
>many successes were rolled (the gm makes the roll). B) Keep the players in
>the dark by the way the answers are phrased. You ask "who is responsible for
>_____" the victim responds that it was Wyvren ( a nickname that is
>unfamiliar).C) the number of successes determines how many questions are
>answered. D) GM decides not to upset the storyline and gives bad guy an
>extra bonus.

On a "read surface thoughts" result, you get something like.. "I hope they
don't kill me", "Hmmm, that soy burger looks good", or "I gotta
pee".

>GM's, on this list seem to have a problem with the concept of "ALL
>POWERFUL". Don't let the players control the game with rules that disrupt
>the balance of the game. ROLLPLAYING, ROLLPLAYING, ROLLPLAYING....make the
>players work for things. If they want to be a statistic, rule oriented
>characters, I recommend the SEGA version of the game.

That leads quickly to the GM vs. players mindset too easily, IMHO. My group
plays to have fun, not as an example of how fast I can crush their
characters, not usually anyways. ;-)

--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484
Message no. 76
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Re[4]: Game Balance
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 08:43:51 GMT
Robert Watkins writes

> >I just had a good idea involving a physical illusion and a spell
> >lock, drop wolf form engage 'i have cloathes on' illusion! There are
> >even temperature altering spells you keep you warm and nutrition out
> >of awakenings is really going to put the downer to 'now survive the
> >wilderness'.
>
> "Survive the wilderness but watch out for that roving pack of dzoo-no-qua
> out there that just LOVES to munch on mage meat"?
>
They might do, i've even met the roving pack of the things, pity they
couldn't fly :) levitate person whole party, we couldn't be bothered
risking blowing them up, though we probably could have done quite
easily, avoidance was safe and easy fights are always risky.

Mark
Message no. 77
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: Re[4]: Game Balance
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 96 19:04:49 +1100
>They might do, i've even met the roving pack of the things, pity they
>couldn't fly :) levitate person whole party, we couldn't be bothered
>risking blowing them up, though we probably could have done quite
>easily, avoidance was safe and easy fights are always risky.

You're forgetting the blizzard, and after that, the stonebinders come out
to play. :)


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 78
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 96 19:04:43 +1100
>Given the cost of libraries, you don't have to do very much *extra* to keep
>them out of the hands of pc's, if they don't get them at character creation.

*shrug* If a samurai can save up for beta cyber, and a decker can save up
for hot-shot deck components (usually quicker than building it yourself,
unless you can steal a really hot design), and a rigger can save up for
those fancy vehicles, then a mage can save up for magical supplies. Money
isn't always the only obstacle.


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 79
From: Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 96 11:31:00 PDT
pbailey wrote:

[snip]
:At what level did you set your target numbers? High tech stuff has a
:much higher target number remember.

Then introduce Karma rerolls for the (few) occasions when the spell
failed.

[APC discussion ~ snip]

:If it was "hard to see at night" how did the mage see well enough to
:place the satchel?

Binoculars focussing on the satchel, with the street sam using a laser
sight to spotlight it. The APC crew were hull-down(in case any one
started sniping), resulting in diminished visibility due to vastly
reduced peripheral vision. They were relying mostly on the vehicle
sensors (thermographic, generally), in this situation a couple of PC's
bellydown in muck and rubble had a distinct advantage.

:Did the mage just drop it on top? What demolitions skill did
:he use? Didn't the vehicle have any armour at all?

You're not very familiar with thermite, are you ? Let me explain. The
stuff is ridiculously easy to manufacture, probably easier than cooking
dinner, cheap (rust & aluminium dust), and burns at 2300 C. Hot enough
to *vaporise* carbide steel, melt it's way through rock, and cause steam
explosions in human flesh. It's difficult to light, making it very safe
to transport, but addition of magnesium dust and/or appropriate
oxidisers make it quite reliable to ignite. It was not a difficult task
for the tech with phys. sciences & Demolitions 6 to make this stuff with
a reliable remote detonation device. Friends of mine actually made this
stuff once, lit it with magnesium ribbon, and verified how nasty it was.
By contrast, an APC that was merely bulletproof (30-40mm composite
steel) would not stand a chance. I t would melt through that little
armour in seconds, and kill the crew with splatters of molten metal, or
it would melt through the engine, eventually hitting a fuel line and
starting a fire, or it would hit an ammo bin. It didn't really matter
where the charge was put. (it killed the troops in the back, started a
fire which forced the driver & commander to leave, and quickly get
killed by the sam).

:Again, if it was night time. How did the mage see the opposition? Were
:you introducing the visibility target number modifiers? Were you
:introducing the distance target number modifiers?

Not too hard to spot a large vehicle with the engine running, parked
beside the street. Thermograph would show it easily. By converse,
camouflaged runners crawling though a wrecked building, scouting with
periscopes are quite difficult to spot, even astrally.

> Drain?

A bit of drain was excusable in this case.

:Was there any magical backup for the goons?

Sure, and as soon as they heard the screams over the comm.s suite they
were rushing to the site. The enemy mages (me too as GM) did not expect
to have to fight a hidden shadowrun team without the assistance of their
APC, at worst they expected it to be targeted for trouble. It was their
backup unit, and when they arrived on scene they found the thing ablaze
with bodies lying around. The troops that they had sent to assist the
APC were coming under withering sniper fire from 2 sources. The NPC
mages had to try and look for and neutralise the PC mages aswell as
assist their diminishing troops. When the Astral battle finally occured
it was a close thing, until the PC's watchers found where the other
mages were hiding (well one of them anyway), and the sams hosed his
position. A physical plane threat made them run like hell. The
badguys(tm) had a pretty good defense against assault, but they hadn't
counted on their toughest piece of hardware getting wasted so quickly.

:This is going to sound harsh, but if the APC was a threat, how come
:they didn't have enough magical backup to defend them?

The magical backup was busy scouting in Astral looking for enemy mages,
who were smart enough to stay indoors/underground/underrubble. The NPC
mages expected the APC to stay out of trouble long enough for them to
lend assistance. Finding the thing smoking when they got there, and no
sign of the PC's was a bit unnerving.

[snip ~ bugs mages & laxatives]

:Creative. :) That's the sort of thing a good team does.

Yeah, but there was also a sign of some OOC revenge on the part of the
players. A kick in the nads from all the players who were being
continually upstaged.

:They only lose 10% laundering their money? Geez, my team usually gets
:10% back after the laundering process.

IMHO that's excessive. At those rates my players would probably just pay
taxes and never stay in the same place twice. No fixer would be stupid
enough to steal that much money from a Runner team.

Seriously, the money was already half clean by the time they got it,
their benefactor doesn't want to be traced. They were working through a
very good contact(paid extra at char. generation) who they had done runs
for, and that 10% was just for their run payments, they had to pay extra
to maintain their extra SIN's, ghost accounts & all currency
conversions.

:Hmm, gold?, bearer bonds? Sounds like just the thing for a little
:organised criminal to target. All that juicy cash just waiting to be
:stolen. Or even an enterprising white collar criminal..... :)

You have to know where it is first. And if you're raiding safety deposit
boxes, you might as well raid the vault. You'll end up dead either way
but you'll be reknowned as being at least ambitious.

Richard.
O--------------------------------------------------------------------O
\Food for thought lies in the\Richard_M_Conroy@\Roadkill on the Info \
\depth of an inedible brick. \ccm.ir.intel.com \-rmation SuperHighway\
O-------------------------------------------------------------------O
Message no. 80
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 08:51:05 -0500
Richard M Conroy wrote:
>You're not very familiar with thermite, are you ? Let me explain.
> <snip thermite explanation>
This is a pretty accurate description of thermite. Burning through the hull would
take a while though, (at least 20 seconds or so), so the occupants of the vehicle
should be able to 1) make a decent call for help and 2) exit in mass and hit the
dirt so that a sniper should only be able to get 1 or two of them. Other than that,
everything sounds justifiable to me. I might argue that 21st century armor might
have more ceramic in it than modern armor, which would reduce thermite
effectiveness pretty well, but that is definately a GM call.

>:They only lose 10% laundering their money? Geez, my team usually gets :10%
> back after the laundering process.

>IMHO that's excessive. At those rates my players would probably just pay taxes
>and never stay in the same place twice. No fixer would be stupid enough to
>steal that much money from a Runner team.

IMHO you are both too extreeme. To launder money well is difficult. A 30% cut
is not at all unreasonable. 90% is, however, outright theft. 10% would probably
not cover the launderer's costs.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 81
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 02:16:04 -0600
Gurth wrote:
>
>* Levitate Person: all your nice security fences mean jack shit when a
>magician knows this (I speak of experience). A one-time fix is to string
>monowire above the fence, but once one magician has had his legs chopped
>off the others will clear the fence with a few meters to spare instead of
>going only just over it.

And how is the legless mage dealing with the shock of loosing his legs.
I nearly every case the mage would immediately loose concentration on the
spell and fall. Even if the first one over the fence was another team
member, your run is OVER!! The sensors on the fence and monowire will
detect the static shock of contacting it.

>
>* Control Thoughts, or even worse, Mob Mind: NPCs will do whatever the
>players want them to, including letting them into places they shouldn't
>be. The only bright side to the use of this spell is that such situations
>would often come up in areas with high magical security. But then there's
>still the trouble with Mob Minding the gang that's come to kill the PCs...
>
>* Mind Probe, obviously: just keep in mind that it requires the caster to
>touch the target, and gives unpleasant personality shifts for a while (see
>Plus Ca Change in SRII).
>

These types of spells are the reason that most facilities have backups of
their guards behind mirrored windows. If the guard at the gate makes out
of the ordinary requests or starts acting strange, his buddy won't open the
door/gate and calls for magical support.

Secondly, the target of these spells know that is happening to them. If
you probe someone and get beyond their surface thoughts they will know.
If you take controll of a guard and make him open a door for you he knnows
that he shouldn't be doing it. As doon as you drop either spell, the
target is going to scream bloody murder. The only alternatives to
sustaining the spells are killing the guy (leaving an easy trail of bodys)
or lock/quicken/... the spell. Once you make a spell permanent, the spell
is out of your controll. The effects stay the same and the target will
eventually break free of it. In any case, these spells don't solve all
problems as the players may claim.

Piatro
Message no. 82
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 02:15:59 -0600
>David wrote:
>>
>>If you're GMing SR then GM SR, not AD%D. There are plenty
>>of situations and stories that you can run that combat
>>won't solve. Have fun :)
>>
>
>Hehe... that's what our GM thought...but our party proved him wrong. If
>PC's are lookin' for a fight, then they're gonna find one... not that I
>personally like that. That was the problem for me... it's too easy for
>a couple players to turn a whole campaign into hack-n-slash. Basically,
>I guess you just have to find a new group (but a little hard to do in a
>twon of 3500... :( ...)
>
>-SINless


You might try traching them that this type of gaming doesn't always work.
A Lone Star crackdown is usually effective. Roaming SWAT teams that can
arive within minutes (or seconds if the group is being watched) should
give the player a reason to rethink their playing style. After they have
created new characters in each of three or four sessions that is.

Piatro
Message no. 83
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 02:16:10 -0600
Mark wrote:

>Gurth writes
>>
>> * Levitate Person: all your nice security fences mean jack shit when a
>> magician knows this (I speak of experience). A one-time fix is to string
>> monowire above the fence, but once one magician has had his legs chopped
>> off the others will clear the fence with a few meters to spare instead of
>> going only just over it.
>yeah, the 'monowire in trees' scared them the first time, now folks
>just blow up hedges in my corp compounds before they find out what i
>hid inside :(
>
>They want to fly over the fence eh, nice skylined target, not very
>stealthy (though if you do as i do and combine with improved invis it
>works a real treat). Hiding the main complex underground and avoid
>roof entrances slows this one, sure the party with the mage gets over
>the fence but a skilled sam could soon have beat the sensors and cut
>it (leaving an escape route usable without having to have that
>levitate spell handy) anyway, the first fence just keeps the trash
>where it belongs.
>

Remember, we are talking "Shaddowrun." Blowing up bushed is sure to
attract the wrong kind of attention. Your employers want this to be
quiet, otherwise they would have hired a company of mercs.

Piatro
Message no. 84
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: Re[4]: Game Balance
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 02:16:18 -0600
>Robert Watkins writes
>
>> >I just had a good idea involving a physical illusion and a spell
>> >lock, drop wolf form engage 'i have cloathes on' illusion! There are
>> >even temperature altering spells you keep you warm and nutrition out
>> >of awakenings is really going to put the downer to 'now survive the
>> >wilderness'.
>>
>> "Survive the wilderness but watch out for that roving pack of dzoo-no-qua=

>> out there that just LOVES to munch on mage meat"?
>>
>They might do, i've even met the roving pack of the things, pity they
>couldn't fly :) levitate person whole party, we couldn't be bothered
>risking blowing them up, though we probably could have done quite
>easily, avoidance was safe and easy fights are always risky.
>
>Mark

1) That is IF you see them comming. Depending on the type of wildernes the=
little fuzzy forest creatures can be on top of you before you can see them.

2) Any "group levatation" spell would be an area effect spell, so everyone=
in the selected area would be levitated. If the attackers were all within=
a six meter area (or more for initiates) then sure you can get he entire=
group, but anly friendlies in that area would also fly.

Piatro
Message no. 85
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 02:16:23 -0600
Richard wrote:

>pbailey wrote:
>
>:This is going to sound harsh, but if the APC was a threat, how come
>:they didn't have enough magical backup to defend them?
>
>The magical backup was busy scouting in Astral looking for enemy mages,
>who were smart enough to stay indoors/underground/underrubble. The NPC
>mages expected the APC to stay out of trouble long enough for them to
>lend assistance. Finding the thing smoking when they got there, and no
>sign of the PC's was a bit unnerving.
>

If they were anywhere within LOS of the APC (at least one of them should=
have been!) then they would have seen the bomb, antually the spell, well=
before it reached the APC. Think about it. A Physical Manipulation spell=
sustained for multiple turns. We are talking astral _beacon_ here. =
"Excuse me, but I'm hiding over here waiting for you to blast me."

Piatro
Message no. 86
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 11:20:20 +0100
Peter said on 2:16/10 Aug 96...

> >* Levitate Person: all your nice security fences mean jack shit when a
> >magician knows this (I speak of experience). A one-time fix is to string
> >monowire above the fence, but once one magician has had his legs chopped
> >off the others will clear the fence with a few meters to spare instead of
> >going only just over it.
>
> And how is the legless mage dealing with the shock of loosing his legs.
> I nearly every case the mage would immediately loose concentration on the
> spell and fall. Even if the first one over the fence was another team
> member, your run is OVER!! The sensors on the fence and monowire will
> detect the static shock of contacting it.

As I said, it will work once. The legless magician may or may not
survive, but that is really irrelevant to this. What matters is that
stringing monowire over a fence once will make all future attempts to
levitate over a fence be more careful, like checking if there is monowire
before going over. Especially if it's the same runner team that's doing
it.

> >* Control Thoughts, or even worse, Mob Mind: NPCs will do whatever the
> >players want them to, including letting them into places they shouldn't
> >be. The only bright side to the use of this spell is that such situations
> >would often come up in areas with high magical security. But then there's
> >still the trouble with Mob Minding the gang that's come to kill the PCs...
>
[snip]
> Secondly, the target of these spells know that is happening to them. If
> you probe someone and get beyond their surface thoughts they will know.
> If you take controll of a guard and make him open a door for you he knnows
> that he shouldn't be doing it.

Does he? The name "Control Thoughts" implies to me that the magician can
make it appear like the guard thought it up all by himself. As far as he's
concerned, he's doing things right, because if you don't have clearance he
wouldn't let you in, now would he?

> As doon as you drop either spell, the target is going to scream bloody
> murder.

That's a matter of debate. Does the guard think it was all his own idea,
or does he get the feeling he's been manipulated when the spell is
dropped?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
They'll tell you you can't have your own way.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 87
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Game Balance
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:52:33 +0100
In message <v01510100ae301e8ba31d@[199.17.26.2]>, Peter <wilsonpj@******
.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU> writes

>>They might do, i've even met the roving pack of the things, pity they
>>couldn't fly :) levitate person whole party, we couldn't be bothered
>>risking blowing them up, though we probably could have done quite
>>easily, avoidance was safe and easy fights are always risky.
>>Mark
>
>1) That is IF you see them comming. Depending on the type of wildernes the
>little fuzzy forest creatures can be on top of you before you can see them.

Most wild creatures with an interest in making you dinner will do so
from ambush. A leopard, say, will stalk the group, and when one member
wanders off to answer nature's call, the leopard will attack: typically
making a rush from cover of less than five metres, knocking you down and
clamping its teeth into your throat. You might have time to say "Wha..?"

Predators don't make kills by letting the prey see them. And a hungry
tiger can make the group's life very interesting indeed. Remember, most
shadowrunners have never seen real jungle... the culture shock effect is
hilarious. I had them convinced that I was running a version of
"Predator" when all I was doing was have an elderly tiger try to score a
meal...

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 88
From: mr.self-destruct@********.de (mr. self-destruct)
Subject: RE: Re: Game Balance
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 96 12:26 +0100
>> As doon as you drop either spell, the target is going to scream bloody
>> murder.
>
>That's a matter of debate. Does the guard think it was all his own idea,
>or does he get the feeling he's been manipulated when the spell is
>dropped?

I make that dependable on how many net successes the mage had when casting, the
intelligence of the victim and/or his knowledge/experience of magic. But I don't
use a rule here, just common sense (as far as this is aplliable concerning
magic...)

******************************************************************************
* There is nothing humans love as much and treat as bad as their own lives *
* -La Bruyere *
******************************************************************************

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