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Message no. 1
From: Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
Subject: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 96 12:55:00 PDT
OK, I Think everyone has kinda noticed that there's something up with
Shadowruns magic system, basically that a well played mage will walk
over most opposition due to the various spells etc. at his power. The
Sammies/Deckers/Riggers can all be controlled fairly easily by
restricting equipment access, but if you start knocking spells off, and
all the features that make a mage powerful, you will more or less be
discarding half the spellist and most of the grimoire, including all
the bits which make playing a mage interesting.

here's a couple of snippets from the thread:

Right the big bullet barrier:

[snip]
> Another problem is that in order to drop him you have to use the
>most heavy weapons of the game, which the surviving pc's will get from
>the fallen bodies and then the pc's will have these weapons too, ...
>soon everyone will NEED one of these barriers in order to stand a
>chance of surviving...

OK, so we have got the Arcane equivalent of nuclear escalation: In order
to threaten a mage by mundane means you need to bring out all the big
guns that you've been keeping out for game balance reasons, to counter
this, the non-mage types are going to require similar firepower just to
stay alive, which will probably make your players obsessive about
acquiring them, mostly from corpses.

> The point is: yes, you can be killed, but only by highly unusual
> things.

Exactly, things get heated to the point that in order to provide a
challenge to the mage, every enemy becomes a walking tank, or has an
army of friends on the lookout for mages at all times

>And then there's the obvious solution - fight magic with magic.
>You don't expect a gang of at least 50 members to have none
>with magic

I've always gathered that Magic users (including all adepts) numbered
less than 1% of the total population (source:Grimoire? NAGEE?) all of
which can't be fully trained up to PC standards, and that by and large
most of them would be recruited by corporate scouts. *Every* group can't
have a bloodthirsty lethal mage with them.

Basically my Point: Every group can't possibly have all the resources
available, both magical & mundane, to challenge a team supported by a
good mage (or two), but the opponents that do, possess the ability to
strip down a team in seconds (several PC deaths) once the mage overlooks
a possibility (grounding thru spellocks, extremely powerful weapons,
spirits etc.). It also requires the GM to think on every possible
ability on how to threaten the mage. These methods bring the whole
power level up so much, that most players can't handle it. ie power can
be achieved by the mages, but it can also be taken away very quickly,
by using extreme means that border on GM vindictiveness(sp?). There's
no middle ground area or threat level, and certainly mages are not
balanced with other characters. A mage should wipe the floor with any
street sam.

Case in Point: My SR game was played at a high power level, there was a
merc in the team that had a fairly free run of source material (shadow-
tech, SSC etc.). By the end of the campaign he was incredibly tough
(they were successful & made contacts), you know, milspec armor with
NBC protection, gyromounted Stoner Ares, Body 10 etc. When he was able
to use all his gear he was horrible. There was a rigger with his usual
Bond-type tank, with guns to match, and launchable drones. There was
also a mage & a shaman, who were probably more powerful than either of
the others. The merc was scared of snipers, with good cause, the rigger
died when his truck got hit with a ripple of rockets.
However, because the mages (Hermetic & Shamanic) were never
*SEEN* due to maintaining invisibility and various Concealment powers,
they were never targeted, darkness, stealth and smoke always helped.
The mages usually left the tanks (human & vehicle) behind to cover
they're stealthy intrusion & getaway.

BTW these were smart & good players not munchies, but the point I'm
trying to make is that I was completely unable to balance the mages,
the sams, yes, but I let them away with all the tech they could have,
and yet they could still be challenged by 20 terrorists or so, the
mages hadn't even half the stuff they were able to accomplish, and
yet they far outclassed the sams.

I always had the option of grounding hellblasts through spell locks,
(a lock bought it that way) or unleashing 5+ mages against them, but
that stinks as much as a GM frag, and would end up destroying my campaign,
as the mage wipes out all the rest of the team who are naked without
magic support. What's the point ? Proving that you can be killed ?

Surely there's a better way to balance out magic ? Without fragging
your mages with unbelievable opponents ? I'm reluctant to just say
"no spell locks, no grimoire, etc" it's that stuff that makes being
a mage interesting.

I just had to stop that campaign because I refused to turn every single
opponent into a walking tank/free spirit/quickened mage. This is Shadow-
Run not AD$D, it would totally ruin SOD, and I didn't want to turn the
game into a high-magic campaign either.

Is there anyone out there who found a better solution ?

Richard
O--------------------------------------------------------------------O
\Food for thought lies in the\Richard_M_Conroy@\Roadkill on the Info \
\depth of an inedible brick. \ccm.ir.intel.com \-rmation SuperHighway\
O-------------------------------------------------------------------O
Message no. 2
From: Marc Lipshitz <MLIPSHIT@****.CO.ZA>
Subject: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...) -Reply
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 14:33:16 +0200
>>> Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
31/July/1996 09:55pm >>>
Is there anyone out there who found a better solution ?


We handles it by saying that the staging for drain was by box, rather than
by level. Tends to make the casting of spells more fatiguing. Also,
remember that for every spell being sustained +2 is added to all target
numbers. That combined with our changed to drain tends to leave the
mages with casting fewer spells and using them more intelligently:)
Marc
Message no. 3
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 13:37:10 GMT
Richard M Conroy writes

> OK, I Think everyone has kinda noticed that there's something up with
> Shadowruns magic system, basically that a well played mage will walk
> over most opposition due to the various spells etc. at his power.
ok i will make a few suggestions trimming very heavily.

> Right the big bullet barrier:

counts as a barrier, double rating vs damage to it from bullets. The
best solution is burst frire from anything the can equal the barrier
rating, the first bullet does 1 point of barrier damage, it gets
exponential fast, arround 6 bullets will kill a barrier if they hurt
it. Don't allow exclusive spells locked and the force limits about
8+2, so enfield AS7 + IPE would do.

I use 'barriered armour' spells.

basically remove the barrier and glittery fringe effect from barrier
spell.
replace with composite armour equal to half force.
its still very good (invisible, stacking armour) but value is half
and theres no pile of maths for damage to it, also not hardened so
minimum damage is level 2, as has been said before the bounty hunter
archtype or massed fire overloads the poor magicians dice supplies
rather well (i had serious trouble with two lonestars despite an
armour score of 11, 4 bursts is plain nasty (they also had
ultrasound, agh!))

> I've always gathered that Magic users (including all adepts) numbered
> less than 1% of the total population (source:Grimoire?
Grimoire.

> NAGEE?) all of
> which can't be fully trained up to PC standards, and that by and large
> most of them would be recruited by corporate scouts. *Every* group can't
> have a bloodthirsty lethal mage with them.
>
> However, because the mages (Hermetic & Shamanic) were never
> *SEEN* due to maintaining invisibility and various Concealment powers,
> they were never targeted, darkness, stealth and smoke always helped.
> The mages usually left the tanks (human & vehicle) behind to cover
> they're stealthy intrusion & getaway.
>
ok i ban turning spell locks on and off unless you spend karma to
rebond them, why 2 karma improved invis & levitate person hideous
combination as manabolts rain from the heavens for no penalty. There
are solutions but most folks don't have them / won't live long enough
to use them.

I also hint very strongly that more than about 4 unmasked locks is
very very bad for your health, so far this has been heeded.

The 1 corp facility i have no ones gotten properly inside yet
(wandered about the grounds ok but no one penetrated the main
buildings) (despite attempts) had some 20 watchers on overwhatch (ok
was a AAA corp), amazing what '20 spirits' does to astral detection
modifiers, but this is a rare solution)

You can do some pretty good things with mundanes armour scores as
well, esp with dikoted armour and orthoskin, let alone the body
plating in cybertechnology (which costs no essence and has no limit!)

The other common but if you read the spell description carefully
illegal trick is fashion to make sec armour look like suits, it
changes cut and fit etc not the whole apperance of the cloathes!
(unless you want to change what they are made out of)

i find mundanes have a combat advantage as it takes quite a few
spells to equal wired 2 + extras or wired 3 initative and smartgun on
burst is a simple action at genearlly 2 or 3 lower target numbers
than the manabolts (before the bad guys get shielding). Utility magic
is however extreamely powerful in the hands of a clever player, magic
can do all sorts of tricks the mundanes just cannot emulate.

Mark
Message no. 4
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <ojastej@******.sid.ncr.doe.ca>
Subject: RE: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 96 08:47:00 PDT
[talking about merc, rigger, 2 mages...]
> BTW these were smart & good players not munchies, but the point I'm
> trying to make is that I was completely unable to balance the mages,
> the sams, yes, but I let them away with all the tech they could have,
> and yet they could still be challenged by 20 terrorists or so, the
> mages hadn't even half the stuff they were able to accomplish, and
> yet they far outclassed the sams.

So don't send the mages up against sams - send them up against
more mages:
"We want you to inflitrate MITM..."
"The building always has a combat mage on duty..."

> I always had the option of grounding hellblasts through spell locks,
> (a lock bought it that way) or unleashing 5+ mages against them, but
> that stinks as much as a GM frag, and would end up destroying my
campaign,
> as the mage wipes out all the rest of the team who are naked without
> magic support. What's the point ? Proving that you can be killed ?

So why use a hellblast? A mage on astral patrol sees two mages
with spell locks, trying to break into the place he's guarding.
Just have him alert his colleagues and destroy the spell locks.
Intelligent opponents are going to do their best to uneven the
odds - they might not know hellblast (and they wouldn't want
to do it in public), so they can just punch the spell lock
instead. A rating 1 focus is pretty easy to get rid of...

> Surely there's a better way to balance out magic ? Without fragging
> your mages with unbelievable opponents ? I'm reluctant to just say
> "no spell locks, no grimoire, etc" it's that stuff that makes being
> a mage interesting.

So why aren't the enemy mages interesting? Balance things out.
Sure a sam would have a hard time, but a mage would have a hard
time against several sams (or guards, or gangers).

> I just had to stop that campaign because I refused to turn every single
> opponent into a walking tank/free spirit/quickened mage. This is
Shadow-
> Run not AD$D, it would totally ruin SOD, and I didn't want to turn the
> game into a high-magic campaign either.

You had 2 mages in the party - you already *had* a high-magic
campaign. Have you taken a look at CorpSec? Any relatively
significant building has a mage on astral patrol, with his body
near a fiber-optic network so that he can cast spells LOS all
over the building. Feed *that* to your mages and they'd better
step lightly.

James

--
I can't be bothered to think up a generally witty comment right now, so
if you'll just leave your sense of humour at the tone...
Message no. 5
From: rhoded01@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Ahzmandius)
Subject: Re: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 08:33:30 -0600 (CST)
The point isn't whether or not in the world of Shadowrun that the percentage
of mages is 1% (or less). The point IS that the percentage of mages to other
in the game is actuall around 25-45%. If the mage is indestructable, the
other players are going to get either a) Bored or b) very dead characters
thereby getting very pissed at the player with Munchkin Mage for being a
dork! As a gm, I limit my mages, and other characters, when the game gets
too out of hand. This is easily done. Attacking foci (reducing their power
ratings), destroying thier doss and equipment etc. The occasional sniper
with a Barret from a random rooftop is fairly successful at getting the gm's
point accross. A character should NOT be able to take a direct hit from a
Panther assault cannon and just shrug it off. If I have to resort to
Tactical Nukes to damage a character, then the party is retired, one way or
the other.

Ahz
Message no. 6
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: RE: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:01:13 +0000
On 31 Jul 96 at 8:47, Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:
> > I always had the option of grounding hellblasts through spell locks,
> > (a lock bought it that way) or unleashing 5+ mages against them, but
> > that stinks as much as a GM frag, and would end up destroying my
> campaign,
> > as the mage wipes out all the rest of the team who are naked without
> > magic support. What's the point ? Proving that you can be killed ?
> So why use a hellblast? A mage on astral patrol sees two mages
> with spell locks, trying to break into the place he's guarding.
> Just have him alert his colleagues and destroy the spell locks.
> Intelligent opponents are going to do their best to uneven the
> odds - they might not know hellblast (and they wouldn't want
> to do it in public), so they can just punch the spell lock
> instead. A rating 1 focus is pretty easy to get rid of...
Rather use Sleep, Stun Bolt, Stun Missile. These are Mana Spells, so they
woun't have area effect, but ground into the one wearing the lock (see
Grounding through Foci, somewhere in SRII). Down goes the magician, the spell
lock is destroyed, and absolutely no harm is done to the surroundings. Or, if
in bad mood, use Mana Bolt... this time the Magician should go down forever...

> > Surely there's a better way to balance out magic ? Without fragging
> > your mages with unbelievable opponents ? I'm reluctant to just say
> > "no spell locks, no grimoire, etc" it's that stuff that makes being
> > a mage interesting.
> So why aren't the enemy mages interesting? Balance things out.
> Sure a sam would have a hard time, but a mage would have a hard
> time against several sams (or guards, or gangers).
When someone starts running around with heaps of locks active, and one or more
weapon foci active, and several quickened spells, too, he will surely attract
attention by each and any active magician nearby, be it a Lone Star Mage on
routine astral patrol, or a gang magician looking for loot, whatever. This
leads to constant harresments ("Sorry, Sir, no magic within our hotel" -
"May
I see you SIN, citizen?" - "Hey, you! Gimme ya fokusses!") that should
quickly
convince the magician to tune down things a bit - everyone needs sleep
sometimes, and magicians who are constantly casting spells need even more...

[Combat Campaign(tm)]
> You had 2 mages in the party - you already *had* a high-magic
> campaign. Have you taken a look at CorpSec? Any relatively
> significant building has a mage on astral patrol, with his body
> near a fiber-optic network so that he can cast spells LOS all
> over the building. Feed *that* to your mages and they'd better
> step lightly.
As someone else said - turn the encounter into no-combat-ones. Offer other
solutions to solve problems, and offer ethernal damnation to the first one to
become aggressive :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 7
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:01:13 +0000
On 31 Jul 96 at 13:37, Mark Steedman wrote:
> Richard M Conroy writes
> > I've always gathered that Magic users (including all adepts) numbered
> > less than 1% of the total population (source:Grimoire?
> Grimoire.
...but they tend to be in either science or security of some sort, I'd guess.

[Magicians came away 'cause of Invisible-Spells locked]
> ok i ban turning spell locks on and off unless you spend karma to
> rebond them, why 2 karma improved invis & levitate person hideous
> combination as manabolts rain from the heavens for no penalty. There
> are solutions but most folks don't have them / won't live long enough
> to use them.
No need to force magicians to burn Karma (The Sammy doesn't pay Essence each
time he uses his wired reflexes, does he? :-). The solution (as it works with
out team) is quite simple:
a) Invisibility is a _misnomer_. One CAN be seen even when "invisible", with a
perception test vs (2* spell's successes), and thermographic vision (or
ultrasound goggles) are not at all effected. And now tell me your NPCs,
especially the leaders, are dumb?

b) When in a fight it's quite unwise to be invisible - people tend to shoot
through you (errrm - not :-), run you over in cars, your teammates bumb into
you, and dual natured critters might get a taste for that magically active
snack... Anyone using the suppression fire from FoF has a good chance to hit
that magician (as I had to find out yesterday the hard way :-( ), and grenades
are not impressed they can't see you, either (as a buddy found out :-( ).

> I also hint very strongly that more than about 4 unmasked locks is
> very very bad for your health, so far this has been heeded.
See Awakenings, p. 103 for multiple spell locks/foci :-9

[20 watchers guarding building]
...but a single watcher, sent with an attack team, is enough to make an
(invisible) magicians live the hell... *pop* "Active here, active here, ...",
and there the grenades go - right under the watcher (visible to physical
plane). Ooops :-)


Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 8
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 08:01:51 +1000 (EST)
> OK, I Think everyone has kinda noticed that there's something up with
> Shadowruns magic system, basically that a well played mage will walk
> over most opposition due to the various spells etc. at his power. The
> Sammies/Deckers/Riggers can all be controlled fairly easily by
> restricting equipment access, but if you start knocking spells off, and
> all the features that make a mage powerful, you will more or less be
> discarding half the spellist and most of the grimoire, including all
> the bits which make playing a mage interesting.

I disagree. Well, I sort of agree, but I don't think mages are game
unbalancing in their power. It's just that a wellplayed mage (like a well
played PA) can actually sometimes walk all over a cyberguy. :) (Gee, can
you tell I like mages?)

> here's a couple of snippets from the thread:
>
> Right the big bullet barrier:
>
> [snip]
> > Another problem is that in order to drop him you have to use the
> >most heavy weapons of the game, which the surviving pc's will get from
> >the fallen bodies and then the pc's will have these weapons too, ...
> >soon everyone will NEED one of these barriers in order to stand a
> >chance of surviving...
>
> OK, so we have got the Arcane equivalent of nuclear escalation: In order
> to threaten a mage by mundane means you need to bring out all the big
> guns that you've been keeping out for game balance reasons, to counter
> this, the non-mage types are going to require similar firepower just to
> stay alive, which will probably make your players obsessive about
> acquiring them, mostly from corpses.

Well, no. If a PC puts up a bullet barrier, they're vulnerable to
grenades. A Blast Barrier is no protection agains arrows, or knives, or
bullets, or that PA Initiate with a big sword. There's always a new way
to kill the mage, unless the mage walks around with every sort of barrier
up at one.

If that happens, well... assuming he's just sustaining them, he's going
to have TNs through the roof and can't do anything anyway. If he's got
them on spell locks I'm SURE something can be done through astral. :)

> > The point is: yes, you can be killed, but only by highly unusual
> > things.
>
> Exactly, things get heated to the point that in order to provide a
> challenge to the mage, every enemy becomes a walking tank, or has an
> army of friends on the lookout for mages at all times

I disagree again. Sure, mages get some nasty spells, but mages are also
the most karma-hungry characters (apart from physmages, which I'm playing
now, woe is me!). So, the mage's dilemma - APART from trying to put his
skills up to a useful level, does he/she/it buy that next megadeath
spell, try and save towards getting initiated, get an ally, try to save
towards bonding a focus... Yes, a well-played and well-karma'd mage will
eventually kick botty on the sams and riggers, but they take so much
karma it's not funny. They may eventually get strong, but a) they've
gotta get there first, and b) there's always something that can stop them
being so cocky...

> Basically my Point: Every group can't possibly have all the resources
> available, both magical & mundane, to challenge a team supported by a
> good mage (or two), but the opponents that do, possess the ability to

Good point, but you shouldn't have to severely threaten the PCs with
every encounter. If they're that good, they do have the right to outclass
a lot of their would-be opponents.

In addition - sure, the team may be supported by a mage, but that doesn't
mean that you can't do some nasty damage to the other characters while
the mage is busy trying to fight off the guy that went in hand-to-hand
against the mage.

Let's face it, a mage puts most karma into spells and magely things (like
initiations). How high a rating in unarmed combat do most mages have?

And if they've got high unarmed combat, chances are that say, their
stealth is pretty low. Sure, that invisibility might hide them, but it
doesn't cover all the noises they make.

And if their skills are that high, then chances are that their spells are
lacking - thus, not too powerful. And if they DO have the skills AND the
spells, they're probably not highly initiated and thus higher initiates,
corp mages, cop mages etc can cause some problems.

Mages HAVE to make big choices in their karma allocations. Until they've
reached a certain Karma accumulation, either they're going to be at a
good balance but low powered, or one or more of the above areas is going
to be lacking. And once they've reached the point where ALL the areas are
at high strength, then let's face it - you've got problems challenging
ALL your PCs, not just the mage. (Just think about what the party PhysAd
is going to be like after that much karma...)

I can see your point, but mages are never totally immune to even LOW
level threats. Well, reasonably low, anyway. They're going to have
weaknesses that don't require dragons or vampires or bug spirits to
exploit. :)


Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
Heisenberg may have slept here.
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
I don't have enemies, it's just that my best friends
are trying to kill me.
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 9
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: RE: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 96 11:42:36 +1100
>Rather use Sleep, Stun Bolt, Stun Missile. These are Mana Spells, so they
>woun't have area effect, but ground into the one wearing the lock (see
>Grounding through Foci, somewhere in SRII). Down goes the magician, the
>spell
>lock is destroyed, and absolutely no harm is done to the surroundings. Or,
>if
>in bad mood, use Mana Bolt... this time the Magician should go down
>forever...

Sorry, Saschba... to ground a spell, you have to use a physical spell. A
mana spell won't ever go into the physical plane.


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 10
From: SINless@**.netcom.com (Ross Hammer)
Subject: Re: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 20:49:12 -0700
Richard wrote:
>
>OK, I Think everyone has kinda noticed that there's something up with
>Shadowruns magic system, basically that a well played mage will walk
>over most opposition due to the various spells etc. at his power. The
>Sammies/Deckers/Riggers can all be controlled fairly easily by
>restricting equipment access, but if you start knocking spells off,
and
>all the features that make a mage powerful, you will more or less be
>discarding half the spellist and most of the grimoire, including all
>the bits which make playing a mage interesting.
>
[BIG GIANT SNIP!]
>
>Surely there's a better way to balance out magic ? Without fragging
>your mages with unbelievable opponents ? I'm reluctant to just say
>"no spell locks, no grimoire, etc" it's that stuff that makes being
>a mage interesting.
>
>I just had to stop that campaign because I refused to turn every
single
>opponent into a walking tank/free spirit/quickened mage. This is
Shadow-
>Run not AD$D, it would totally ruin SOD, and I didn't want to turn the
>game into a high-magic campaign either.
>
>Is there anyone out there who found a better solution ?
>

The only thing I can think of (and I have not had a chance to try it)
is to take the time to sit down, take all the magic sources, and work
out some kind of conversion for the system to make it more difficult to
perform the higher level and higher powered spells. I don't have any of
those books so I have not been able to look at the feasiblity of it
all. The source books were intended as a reference. If it doesn't work
for you, then modify it, or don't use it. Since the later is obviously
undesirable, then your left to modify the rules ot suit you.

BTW, I agree completely with the post I quoted here. I, too, have been
in those campaigns as a PC, both as a Decker, and as a Street Samurai,
and it basically sucks. You just feel so SMALL and USELESS when your
picking off the stragglers as the mage moves ahead in the the lead,
zapping everyone and everything!

-SINless
Message no. 11
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 96 09:43:46 EST
------- this is a reply----
On 31 Jul 96 at 8:47, Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:
> > I always had the option of grounding hellblasts through spell locks,
> > (a lock bought it that way) or unleashing 5+ mages against them, but
> > that stinks as much as a GM frag, and would end up destroying my
> campaign,
> > as the mage wipes out all the rest of the team who are naked without
> > magic support. What's the point ? Proving that you can be killed ?
> So why use a hellblast? A mage on astral patrol sees two mages
> with spell locks, trying to break into the place he's guarding.
> Just have him alert his colleagues and destroy the spell locks.
> Intelligent opponents are going to do their best to uneven the
> odds - they might not know hellblast (and they wouldn't want
> to do it in public), so they can just punch the spell lock
> instead. A rating 1 focus is pretty easy to get rid of...
Rather use Sleep, Stun Bolt, Stun Missile. These are Mana Spells, so they
woun't have area effect, but ground into the one wearing the lock (see
Grounding through Foci, somewhere in SRII). Down goes the magician, the spell
lock is destroyed, and absolutely no harm is done to the surroundings. Or, if
in bad mood, use Mana Bolt... this time the Magician should go down forever...

>>>>Small point. Only physical spells can be grounded into locks!!
>>>>So no stun spells.....


> > Surely there's a better way to balance out magic ? Without fragging
> > your mages with unbelievable opponents ? I'm reluctant to just say
> > "no spell locks, no grimoire, etc" it's that stuff that makes being
> > a mage interesting.
> So why aren't the enemy mages interesting? Balance things out.
> Sure a sam would have a hard time, but a mage would have a hard
> time against several sams (or guards, or gangers).
When someone starts running around with heaps of locks active, and one or more
weapon foci active, and several quickened spells, too, he will surely attract
attention by each and any active magician nearby, be it a Lone Star Mage on
routine astral patrol, or a gang magician looking for loot, whatever. This
leads to constant harresments ("Sorry, Sir, no magic within our hotel" -
"May
I see you SIN, citizen?" - "Hey, you! Gimme ya fokusses!") that should
quickly
convince the magician to tune down things a bit - everyone needs sleep
sometimes, and magicians who are constantly casting spells need even more...

>>>>Too true...

[Combat Campaign(tm)]
> You had 2 mages in the party - you already *had* a high-magic
> campaign. Have you taken a look at CorpSec? Any relatively
> significant building has a mage on astral patrol, with his body
> near a fiber-optic network so that he can cast spells LOS all
> over the building. Feed *that* to your mages and they'd better
> step lightly.

>>>I do think fasa went too far with these "cable
mages". Haruumph.. ridiculous!.

As someone else said - turn the encounter into no-combat-ones. Offer other
solutions to solve problems, and offer ethernal damnation to the first one to
become aggressive :-)

Sascha
--------------------------------------------
>>> You do have to live with the fact that you will lose some players
as their 4th pc's get killed again because they are slow learners, but in the
long run it's worth it!
Ferri
Message no. 12
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 96 11:22:53 EST
Richard wrote:
>
>OK, I Think everyone has kinda noticed that there's something up with
>Shadowruns magic system, basically that a well played mage will walk
>over most opposition due to the various spells etc. at his power. The
>Sammies/Deckers/Riggers can all be controlled fairly easily by
>restricting equipment access, but if you start knocking spells off,
and
>all the features that make a mage powerful, you will more or less be
>discarding half the spellist and most of the grimoire, including all
>the bits which make playing a mage interesting.
>
[BIG GIANT SNIP!]
>
>Surely there's a better way to balance out magic ? Without fragging
>your mages with unbelievable opponents ? I'm reluctant to just say
>"no spell locks, no grimoire, etc" it's that stuff that makes being
>a mage interesting.
>
>I just had to stop that campaign because I refused to turn every
single
>opponent into a walking tank/free spirit/quickened mage. This is
Shadow-
>Run not AD$D, it would totally ruin SOD, and I didn't want to turn the
>game into a high-magic campaign either.
>
>Is there anyone out there who found a better solution ?
>

The only thing I can think of (and I have not had a chance to try it)
is to take the time to sit down, take all the magic sources, and work
out some kind of conversion for the system to make it more difficult to
perform the higher level and higher powered spells. I don't have any of
those books so I have not been able to look at the feasiblity of it
all. The source books were intended as a reference. If it doesn't work
for you, then modify it, or don't use it. Since the later is obviously
undesirable, then your left to modify the rules ot suit you.

BTW, I agree completely with the post I quoted here. I, too, have been
in those campaigns as a PC, both as a Decker, and as a Street Samurai,
and it basically sucks. You just feel so SMALL and USELESS when your
picking off the stragglers as the mage moves ahead in the the lead,
zapping everyone and everything!

-SINless
=-------------------------------------

>problem is, if you want street sams to compete you have to allow all
books/upgrades. Most GM's restrict access to the books, thereby severely
limiting the power level of sams. This doesn't really affect mages. They can buy
their locks in the game. Street sams can NEVER buy the good things in game as
they then have to pay street index. What you buy with 1 mil at start will cost
you in excess of 7 mil in game including doctor's fees.
So you will never have it.
A good street sam is a lot faster than a mage. And whoever comes first will geek
the other in a "fair" fight.
F.
Message no. 13
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 08:29:54 -0500
I just had an EVIL thought on how to balance to too-powerful mages campaign.
Introduce a horror or two to the astral plane. Maybe they haven't manifested
physically yet, but they are out there poluting astral space (raising magical target
numbers) and horror marking powerful magicians...

<Danger! Evil thoughts increasing!> Here's how to introduce this: first, start
increasing the background count around the mages. "The GM's being cheezy
and making our life harder for no good in-game reason" the players say. That's
what they think. A session later, have one of the mages notice one of his spell
locks "feels funny". In fact, it feels evil. Once this is noticed, have an
astrally
perceiving character notice something sort of like a ritual sending emmanating
from the lock whenever it is active. Trying to trace it does a "right angle turn to
nowhere" in astral space, not to regular space, not to a meta-plane, but
SOMEWHERE ELSE the mages cannot go. Oh Oh! That particular spell lock
should be dropped like a hot potatoe, but a week later, some other lock or focus
gets the same curse. These problems gradually accelerate and become more
frequent, and sooner or later the players realize that its not a GM trick, there is
someone out there trying to do something bad to them. Soon, like in earthdawn,
just casting spells becomes dangerous. I'd say give the horror one die to begin
with, and every spell the players cast the horror rolls that die vs a TN of 12-Force.
Every success counts towards gaining more control over the character. As time
goes by, give the horror more dice. What is the effect of the successes? Be
creative. Voices in the mages head, control thoughts spells, control action spells,
bad odors, animals go creepy around the character, whatever. Have the news
indicate that the most powerful mages all over the world are starting to go mad.
Over the long term, let the mages learn tricks to avoid this (these tricks take LOTS
of karma and limit spellcasting, of course). Presto, you've just made mages a lot
less powerful in your campaign without hand-waving, and the sams etc. are not
effected.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 14
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 13:29:12 GMT
Robert Watkins
>
> Sorry, Saschba... to ground a spell, you have to use a physical spell. A
> mana spell won't ever go into the physical plane.
>
>
no mana spells ground they simply affect only the target they ground
into rather than spreading if area affect (eg fireball)

Mark
Message no. 15
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 13:33:44 GMT
Ross Hammer writes
> >
>
> The only thing I can think of (and I have not had a chance to try it)
> is to take the time to sit down, take all the magic sources, and work
> out some kind of conversion for the system to make it more difficult to
> perform the higher level and higher powered spells.
just look in the SR2 book and fiddle with the magic power level drain
of spell force not force/2 will slow things down. but the stuff that
does most of the harm is around (force/2)M, at force 1 and get out
your magic pool anyway.

Mark
Message no. 16
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: RE: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 15:12:04 +0000
On 1 Aug 96 at 11:42, Robert Watkins wrote:
[me stating nonsense]
> Sorry, Saschba... to ground a spell, you have to use a physical spell. A
> mana spell won't ever go into the physical plane.
Yup, you are right... I was once again fooled by the structure it is explained
(about "It must be a physical spell. If not area-effect, it only hits wearer
of focus"), I keep believing it says "if not PHYSICAL". Sorry, I'll try to
learn :-( *sigh*

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 17
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: RE: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 15:57:42 +0000
On 1 Aug 96 at 13:29, Mark Steedman wrote:
> Robert Watkins
> > Sorry, Saschba... to ground a spell, you have to use a physical spell. A
> > mana spell won't ever go into the physical plane.

> no mana spells ground they simply affect only the target they ground
> into rather than spreading if area affect (eg fireball)
No, Robert's right. It's just that SRII is (once again) written quite
confusingly, with two different aspects within one very short paragraph, and
that gets me over and over :-(

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 18
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 15:57:42 +0000
Ferri Pagano wrote:
[not important right now]
Ferri, could you please teach your mailer program to quote text sensibly? It's
a hell of a time to figure out what's from you and what's from other people.
And with the mail traffic we all have, this can be quite stressful, IMHO.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 19
From: Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 96 11:02:00 PDT
I just want to make a couple of points that have come up in this thread:

The invisibility spell wasn't locked, it was just at a low enough power
to be able to escape drain, but still get about 3+ successes, then add
the shamans spirit concealment power, mages stealth, darkness, thermal
masking smock, thermal smoke, the fact that not many enemies had
ultrasound, and that even thermographic would crap out with thise
modifiers. The mage had the usual stat-booster locks, some of which
bought it along the way (too juicy a target ~ the hellblast was just an
example BTW, powerbolt was usually used ~ destroy lock & hurt mage, and
if you're lucky you might get the bod + 4 lock (no time to scope out
what each of the locks did)).
I didn't have access to much of the source material any of you
mentioned, this campaign ran a couple of years ago, before a lot of it
was written. We just had STech, SR2, Grim I, SSC & RBB and our own wits;
no CTech, Grim II, CorpSec, Shadowfiles, Awakenings, FoF or Critter
books. I was on my own.
These were smart players, the mage was GMing for years, and was
quite used to the dastardly stuff you can throw at players, he just
reapplied the mentality: each activity was well described, and most runs
were well planned.
The mage was a cybermage: hosed the first magic point for eyes,
SGun & Skillwires. She tended to go around cloaked while PC's drew
attention, and then wasted enemies with her smarted Steyr AUG
(invisibility makes those Concealment TN's go through the ceiling), even
if you could see the mage, your average TN modifier was at least +8.

[snip]

Elle wrote:

>I disagree. Well, I sort of agree, but I don't think mages are game
>unbalancing in their power. It's just that a wellplayed mage (like a
>well played PA) can actually sometimes walk all over a cyberguy. :)
>(Gee, can you tell I like mages?)

Make that usually. Most of the time, said guy won't even see it coming
until he's already wounded. By converse, a well played Sam might still
get killed trying to take on a mage.
BTW I like mages too, I just don't like the way that mages
dominate *everything*, clever play makes them as nasty in Combat as a
Sam, and having magical ability to boot.

>> here's a couple of snippets from the thread:
>>
>> Right the big bullet barrier:

[snip]

>Well, no. If a PC puts up a bullet barrier, they're vulnerable to
>grenades. A Blast Barrier is no protection agains arrows, or knives, or
>bullets, or that PA Initiate with a big sword. There's always a new way
>to kill the mage, unless the mage walks around with every sort of
>barrier up at one.

You have to see the mage to target them, and if you do, you still have
all those horrible penalties, that make hitting them an easily resisted
test (even dodged).

>If that happens, well... assuming he's just sustaining them, he's going
>to have TNs through the roof and can't do anything anyway. If he's got
>them on spell locks I'm SURE something can be done through astral. :)

Just the +2 for the invis., which was cancelled by the SGun, which was
really the only other thing that was used. The invis could be dropped &
recast later once the mage was in relative safety.

>>> The point is: yes, you can be killed, but only by highly
>>>unusual

>I disagree again. Sure, mages get some nasty spells, but mages are also
>the most karma-hungry characters

They also get the most benefits from Karma, Initiation is expensive,
along with the rest that comes with it, but it is a very definite
advancement. Skill/Stat Boosting for other classes is not nearly the
same, there is a law of diminishing returns once skills pass a certain
point.

>They may eventually get strong but a) they've gotta get there first,

I disagree, they start off better than the rest.

>b) there's always something that can stop them being so cocky...

This applies to all players equally, moreso to the non-magical types who
can't anticipate threats as easily (get some cheap spells (astral quests
perhaps) like Detect Guns/Humans/Explosives and play like an Angband
mage ;} ). A Sam, can't get rid of a watcher who's tailing him, and
would have to go through a rigorous search to check for booby traps in
his apartment.

>> Basically my Point: Every group can't possibly have all the resources
>> available, both magical & mundane, to challenge a team supported by a
>> good mage (or two), but the opponents that do, possess the ability to

>Good point, but you shouldn't have to severely threaten the PCs with
>every encounter. If they're that good, they do have the right to
>outclass a lot of their would-be opponents.

Some of the encounters were hard, but I knew they were balanced. Still
it was usually the mage who breezed through them while everyone else was
ducking. One of the characters was an unbelievable CyberMerc: about as
maxed out as you could possibly make him, in full kit he had to duck
when he tried to rush 2 vindicators, and the rigger in his tank got
creamed. While everyone else was wetting their pants, the mages mopped
up the magical support (identified the mages for the snipers).

>In addition - sure, the team may be supported by a mage, but that
>doesn't mean that you can't do some nasty damage to the other
>characters while the mage is busy trying to fight off the guy that went
>in hand-to-hand against the mage.

Seriously, I've no problems with having my players shit themselves,
they're *earning* that Karma. But while everyone was crapping themselves
the mages weren't even breaking a sweat; they had too many options to
keep themselves alive. The kind of threats that did worry the mages
usually had the other players dead or crippled.

>Let's face it, a mage puts most karma into spells and magely things
>(like initiations). How high a rating in unarmed combat do most mages
>have?

>And if they've got high unarmed combat, chances are that say, their
>stealth is pretty low. Sure, that invisibility might hide them, but it
>doesn't cover all the noises they make.

Hand-Hand ? I'm sorry, those who live by the sword die by the Grenade
Launcher/Steyr Aug/Booby trap/Sniper/Thermite Bomb/Mana Bolt etc. Hand -
Hand is your last resort.

>And if their skills are that high, then chances are that their spells
>are lacking - thus, not too powerful. And if they DO have the skills
>AND the spells, they're probably not highly initiated and thus higher
>initiates, corp mages, cop mages etc can cause some problems.

Mages start out more powerful than other characters, in many cases,
other players power is determined by their available equipment, most of
which cannot be brought everywhere; your spells are always with you.

>Mages HAVE to make big choices in their karma allocations. Until
>they've reached a certain Karma accumulation, either they're going to
>be at a good balance but low powered, or one or more of the above areas
>is going to be lacking.

An area which can easily be covered, hand-hand is easy to stay out of,
spells just make it easier, and plain old distance is the ultimate
deterrent to Kung-Fu Wannabes. Spells can make you fairly hard to hit
bulletwise too, or giving the attacker a more immediate problem, like a
force 5 earth elemental works too. Orbiting watchers can keep Astral
covered when you're not there, and spirits/spells can give you the most
effective getaway possible, any magical countermeasure applies equally
to Mundane PC's, moreso in that they can't defend against it.

>I can see your point, but mages are never totally immune to even LOW
>level threats.

Nobody is, but mages can defend/avoid low level threats a lot better
than most other characters. Against high level mundane threats, all they
have to do is hide. Against magical threats, at least they can
anticipate them or combat them - mundanes are toast against those
threats.

Richard.
O--------------------------------------------------------------------O
\Food for thought lies in the\Richard_M_Conroy@\Roadkill on the Info \
\depth of an inedible brick. \ccm.ir.intel.com \-rmation SuperHighway\
O-------------------------------------------------------------------O
Message no. 20
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[4]: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 96 18:14:39 EST
------replying..----------------
Ferri Pagano wrote:
[not important right now]
Ferri, could you please teach your mailer program to quote text sensibly? It's
a hell of a time to figure out what's from you and what's from other people.
And with the mail traffic we all have, this can be quite stressful, IMHO.

Sascha
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, I'll spell my stressful situation to engender a little understanding...
1) I'm using ccmail, it doesn't do quotes :(
2) If I do them by hand and I use the tab key it just send a BLANK line :( ^2
3) CC-mail from here is routed through an OLD mainframe, would you believe I
have to actually use uuencode/decode to send things to my normal mail address?
4) When I reply, it puts a stupid header on top
5) Attached files get corruptedand thrown into the text.
..... ..... .... ..... ......:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

So I'll try to improve, but please forgive me if the mails are not really up to
standards... :)?

I might get a whip and use it on our system administrator, perhaps that'll
help..... :)
Ferri
Message no. 21
From: ShaggyX <shaggyx@****.net>
Subject: Re: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 11:47:51 -0400
At 08:29 AM 8/1/96 -0500, you wrote:
><Danger! Evil thoughts increasing!> Here's how to introduce this: first, start
>increasing the background count around the mages. "The GM's being cheezy
>and making our life harder for no good in-game reason" the players say. That's
>what they think. A session later, have one of the mages notice one of his
spell
>locks "feels funny". In fact, it feels evil. Once this is noticed, have
an astrally
>Double-Domed Mike

Man.. i gotta tell ya. That's one of the most beautiful ideas I've
heard in a long time.

ShaggyX
Message no. 22
From: Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 96 11:02:00 PDT
I just want to make a couple of points that have come up in this thread:

The invisibility spell wasn't locked, it was just at a low enough power
to be able to escape drain, but still get about 3+ successes, then add
the shamans spirit concealment power, mages stealth, darkness, thermal
masking smock, thermal smoke, the fact that not many enemies had
ultrasound, and that even thermographic would crap out with thise
modifiers. The mage had the usual stat-booster locks, some of which
bought it along the way (too juicy a target ~ the hellblast was just an
example BTW, powerbolt was usually used ~ destroy lock & hurt mage, and
if you're lucky you might get the bod + 4 lock (no time to scope out
what each of the locks did)).
I didn't have access to much of the source material any of you
mentioned, this campaign ran a couple of years ago, before a lot of it
was written. We just had STech, SR2, Grim I, SSC & RBB and our own wits;
no CTech, Grim II, CorpSec, Shadowfiles, Awakenings, FoF or Critter
books. I was on my own.
These were smart players, the mage was GMing for years, and was
quite used to the dastardly stuff you can throw at players, he just
reapplied the mentality: each activity was well described, and most runs
were well planned.
The mage was a cybermage: hosed the first magic point for eyes,
SGun & Skillwires. She tended to go around cloaked while PC's drew
attention, and then wasted enemies with her smarted Steyr AUG
(invisibility makes those Concealment TN's go through the ceiling), even
if you could see the mage, your average TN modifier was at least +8.

[snip]

Elle wrote:

>I disagree. Well, I sort of agree, but I don't think mages are game
>unbalancing in their power. It's just that a wellplayed mage (like a
>well played PA) can actually sometimes walk all over a cyberguy. :)
>(Gee, can you tell I like mages?)

Make that usually. Most of the time, said guy won't even see it coming
until he's already wounded. By converse, a well played Sam might still
get killed trying to take on a mage.
BTW I like mages too, I just don't like the way that mages
dominate *everything*, clever play makes them as nasty in Combat as a
Sam, and having magical ability to boot.

>> here's a couple of snippets from the thread:
>>
>> Right the big bullet barrier:

[snip]

>Well, no. If a PC puts up a bullet barrier, they're vulnerable to
>grenades. A Blast Barrier is no protection agains arrows, or knives, or
>bullets, or that PA Initiate with a big sword. There's always a new way
>to kill the mage, unless the mage walks around with every sort of
>barrier up at one.

You have to see the mage to target them, and if you do, you still have
all those horrible penalties, that make hitting them an easily resisted
test (even dodged).

>If that happens, well... assuming he's just sustaining them, he's going
>to have TNs through the roof and can't do anything anyway. If he's got
>them on spell locks I'm SURE something can be done through astral. :)

Just the +2 for the invis., which was cancelled by the SGun, which was
really the only other thing that was used. The invis could be dropped &
recast later once the mage was in relative safety.

>>> The point is: yes, you can be killed, but only by highly
>>>unusual

>I disagree again. Sure, mages get some nasty spells, but mages are also
>the most karma-hungry characters

They also get the most benefits from Karma, Initiation is expensive,
along with the rest that comes with it, but it is a very definite
advancement. Skill/Stat Boosting for other classes is not nearly the
same, there is a law of diminishing returns once skills pass a certain
point.

>They may eventually get strong but a) they've gotta get there first,

I disagree, they start off better than the rest.

>b) there's always something that can stop them being so cocky...

This applies to all players equally, moreso to the non-magical types who
can't anticipate threats as easily (get some cheap spells (astral quests
perhaps) like Detect Guns/Humans/Explosives and play like an Angband
mage ;} ). A Sam, can't get rid of a watcher who's tailing him, and
would have to go through a rigorous search to check for booby traps in
his apartment.

>> Basically my Point: Every group can't possibly have all the resources
>> available, both magical & mundane, to challenge a team supported by a
>> good mage (or two), but the opponents that do, possess the ability to

>Good point, but you shouldn't have to severely threaten the PCs with
>every encounter. If they're that good, they do have the right to
>outclass a lot of their would-be opponents.

Some of the encounters were hard, but I knew they were balanced. Still
it was usually the mage who breezed through them while everyone else was
ducking. One of the characters was an unbelievable CyberMerc: about as
maxed out as you could possibly make him, in full kit he had to duck
when he tried to rush 2 vindicators, and the rigger in his tank got
creamed. While everyone else was wetting their pants, the mages mopped
up the magical support (identified the mages for the snipers).

>In addition - sure, the team may be supported by a mage, but that
>doesn't mean that you can't do some nasty damage to the other
>characters while the mage is busy trying to fight off the guy that went
>in hand-to-hand against the mage.

Seriously, I've no problems with having my players shit themselves,
they're *earning* that Karma. But while everyone was crapping themselves
the mages weren't even breaking a sweat; they had too many options to
keep themselves alive. The kind of threats that did worry the mages
usually had the other players dead or crippled.

>Let's face it, a mage puts most karma into spells and magely things
>(like initiations). How high a rating in unarmed combat do most mages
>have?

>And if they've got high unarmed combat, chances are that say, their
>stealth is pretty low. Sure, that invisibility might hide them, but it
>doesn't cover all the noises they make.

Hand-Hand ? I'm sorry, those who live by the sword die by the Grenade
Launcher/Steyr Aug/Booby trap/Sniper/Thermite Bomb/Mana Bolt etc. Hand -
Hand is your last resort.

>And if their skills are that high, then chances are that their spells
>are lacking - thus, not too powerful. And if they DO have the skills
>AND the spells, they're probably not highly initiated and thus higher
>initiates, corp mages, cop mages etc can cause some problems.

Mages start out more powerful than other characters, in many cases,
other players power is determined by their available equipment, most of
which cannot be brought everywhere; your spells are always with you.

>Mages HAVE to make big choices in their karma allocations. Until
>they've reached a certain Karma accumulation, either they're going to
>be at a good balance but low powered, or one or more of the above areas
>is going to be lacking.

An area which can easily be covered, hand-hand is easy to stay out of,
spells just make it easier, and plain old distance is the ultimate
deterrent to Kung-Fu Wannabes. Spells can make you fairly hard to hit
bulletwise too, or giving the attacker a more immediate problem, like a
force 5 earth elemental works too. Orbiting watchers can keep Astral
covered when you're not there, and spirits/spells can give you the most
effective getaway possible, any magical countermeasure applies equally
to Mundane PC's, moreso in that they can't defend against it.

>I can see your point, but mages are never totally immune to even LOW
>level threats.

Nobody is, but mages can defend/avoid low level threats a lot better
than most other characters. Against high level mundane threats, all they
have to do is hide. Against magical threats, at least they can
anticipate them or combat them - mundanes are toast against those
threats.

Richard.
O--------------------------------------------------------------------O
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\depth of an inedible brick. \ccm.ir.intel.com \-rmation SuperHighway\
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Message no. 23
From: Joker <s1057948@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...) -Reply
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 16:39:09 +1000 (EST)
On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Marc Lipshitz wrote:

>
>
> >>> Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
>
> We handles it by saying that the staging for drain was by box, rather than
> by level. Tends to make the casting of spells more fatiguing. Also,
> remember that for every spell being sustained +2 is added to all target
> numbers. That combined with our changed to drain tends to leave the
> mages with casting fewer spells and using them more intelligently:)
> Marc

That would Really hurt on alot of spells. Our current mage nearly knocks
himself out casting a HellBlast. I think he got it more for roleplaying
than power, But in my old game We used Force, not Force divide Two as it
usually is. This still makes it posible to cast mana bolts with out
taking in drain, but it makes it much more difficult. Using this you need
fewer sucesses at high TN compared with the above. I think the above
system would be very good to play in though, and I will suggest it to our
group. (Esp. since I'm playing a an Ex-Cop Street Sam.) Though I dought it
will be popular.


===================================================================
If you ever drop your keys into a river of molten lava, let'em go,
because, man, they're gone.
===================================================================
The Joker,
Craig Chatfield. Email : s1057948@*****.student.gu.au

===================================================================
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate.
And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never
expect it.
Message no. 24
From: Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 96 11:02:00 PDT
I just want to make a couple of points that have come up in this thread:

The invisibility spell wasn't locked, it was just at a low enough power
to be able to escape drain, but still get about 3+ successes, then add
the shamans spirit concealment power, mages stealth, darkness, thermal
masking smock, thermal smoke, the fact that not many enemies had
ultrasound, and that even thermographic would crap out with thise
modifiers. The mage had the usual stat-booster locks, some of which
bought it along the way (too juicy a target ~ the hellblast was just an
example BTW, powerbolt was usually used ~ destroy lock & hurt mage, and
if you're lucky you might get the bod + 4 lock (no time to scope out
what each of the locks did)).
I didn't have access to much of the source material any of you
mentioned, this campaign ran a couple of years ago, before a lot of it
was written. We just had STech, SR2, Grim I, SSC & RBB and our own wits;
no CTech, Grim II, CorpSec, Shadowfiles, Awakenings, FoF or Critter
books. I was on my own.
These were smart players, the mage was GMing for years, and was
quite used to the dastardly stuff you can throw at players, he just
reapplied the mentality: each activity was well described, and most runs
were well planned.
The mage was a cybermage: hosed the first magic point for eyes,
SGun & Skillwires. She tended to go around cloaked while PC's drew
attention, and then wasted enemies with her smarted Steyr AUG
(invisibility makes those Concealment TN's go through the ceiling), even
if you could see the mage, your average TN modifier was at least +8.

[snip]

Elle wrote:

>I disagree. Well, I sort of agree, but I don't think mages are game
>unbalancing in their power. It's just that a wellplayed mage (like a
>well played PA) can actually sometimes walk all over a cyberguy. :)
>(Gee, can you tell I like mages?)

Make that usually. Most of the time, said guy won't even see it coming
until he's already wounded. By converse, a well played Sam might still
get killed trying to take on a mage.
BTW I like mages too, I just don't like the way that mages
dominate *everything*, clever play makes them as nasty in Combat as a
Sam, and having magical ability to boot.

>> here's a couple of snippets from the thread:
>>
>> Right the big bullet barrier:

[snip]

>Well, no. If a PC puts up a bullet barrier, they're vulnerable to
>grenades. A Blast Barrier is no protection agains arrows, or knives, or
>bullets, or that PA Initiate with a big sword. There's always a new way
>to kill the mage, unless the mage walks around with every sort of
>barrier up at one.

You have to see the mage to target them, and if you do, you still have
all those horrible penalties, that make hitting them an easily resisted
test (even dodged).

>If that happens, well... assuming he's just sustaining them, he's going
>to have TNs through the roof and can't do anything anyway. If he's got
>them on spell locks I'm SURE something can be done through astral. :)

Just the +2 for the invis., which was cancelled by the SGun, which was
really the only other thing that was used. The invis could be dropped &
recast later once the mage was in relative safety.

>>> The point is: yes, you can be killed, but only by highly
>>>unusual

>I disagree again. Sure, mages get some nasty spells, but mages are also
>the most karma-hungry characters

They also get the most benefits from Karma, Initiation is expensive,
along with the rest that comes with it, but it is a very definite
advancement. Skill/Stat Boosting for other classes is not nearly the
same, there is a law of diminishing returns once skills pass a certain
point.

>They may eventually get strong but a) they've gotta get there first,

I disagree, they start off better than the rest.

>b) there's always something that can stop them being so cocky...

This applies to all players equally, moreso to the non-magical types who
can't anticipate threats as easily (get some cheap spells (astral quests
perhaps) like Detect Guns/Humans/Explosives and play like an Angband
mage ;} ). A Sam, can't get rid of a watcher who's tailing him, and
would have to go through a rigorous search to check for booby traps in
his apartment.

>> Basically my Point: Every group can't possibly have all the resources
>> available, both magical & mundane, to challenge a team supported by a
>> good mage (or two), but the opponents that do, possess the ability to

>Good point, but you shouldn't have to severely threaten the PCs with
>every encounter. If they're that good, they do have the right to
>outclass a lot of their would-be opponents.

Some of the encounters were hard, but I knew they were balanced. Still
it was usually the mage who breezed through them while everyone else was
ducking. One of the characters was an unbelievable CyberMerc: about as
maxed out as you could possibly make him, in full kit he had to duck
when he tried to rush 2 vindicators, and the rigger in his tank got
creamed. While everyone else was wetting their pants, the mages mopped
up the magical support (identified the mages for the snipers).

>In addition - sure, the team may be supported by a mage, but that
>doesn't mean that you can't do some nasty damage to the other
>characters while the mage is busy trying to fight off the guy that went
>in hand-to-hand against the mage.

Seriously, I've no problems with having my players shit themselves,
they're *earning* that Karma. But while everyone was crapping themselves
the mages weren't even breaking a sweat; they had too many options to
keep themselves alive. The kind of threats that did worry the mages
usually had the other players dead or crippled.

>Let's face it, a mage puts most karma into spells and magely things
>(like initiations). How high a rating in unarmed combat do most mages
>have?

>And if they've got high unarmed combat, chances are that say, their
>stealth is pretty low. Sure, that invisibility might hide them, but it
>doesn't cover all the noises they make.

Hand-Hand ? I'm sorry, those who live by the sword die by the Grenade
Launcher/Steyr Aug/Booby trap/Sniper/Thermite Bomb/Mana Bolt etc. Hand -
Hand is your last resort.

>And if their skills are that high, then chances are that their spells
>are lacking - thus, not too powerful. And if they DO have the skills
>AND the spells, they're probably not highly initiated and thus higher
>initiates, corp mages, cop mages etc can cause some problems.

Mages start out more powerful than other characters, in many cases,
other players power is determined by their available equipment, most of
which cannot be brought everywhere; your spells are always with you.

>Mages HAVE to make big choices in their karma allocations. Until
>they've reached a certain Karma accumulation, either they're going to
>be at a good balance but low powered, or one or more of the above areas
>is going to be lacking.

An area which can easily be covered, hand-hand is easy to stay out of,
spells just make it easier, and plain old distance is the ultimate
deterrent to Kung-Fu Wannabes. Spells can make you fairly hard to hit
bulletwise too, or giving the attacker a more immediate problem, like a
force 5 earth elemental works too. Orbiting watchers can keep Astral
covered when you're not there, and spirits/spells can give you the most
effective getaway possible, any magical countermeasure applies equally
to Mundane PC's, moreso in that they can't defend against it.

>I can see your point, but mages are never totally immune to even LOW
>level threats.

Nobody is, but mages can defend/avoid low level threats a lot better
than most other characters. Against high level mundane threats, all they
have to do is hide. Against magical threats, at least they can
anticipate them or combat them - mundanes are toast against those
threats.

Richard.
O--------------------------------------------------------------------O
\Food for thought lies in the\Richard_M_Conroy@\Roadkill on the Info \
\depth of an inedible brick. \ccm.ir.intel.com \-rmation SuperHighway\
O-------------------------------------------------------------------O
Message no. 25
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 08:45:47 GMT
Mike Elkins writes

> I just had an EVIL thought on how to balance to too-powerful mages campaign.
> Introduce a horror or two to the astral plane. Maybe they haven't manifested
> physically yet, but they are out there poluting astral space (raising magical target
> numbers) and horror marking powerful magicians...
>
These things seriously frag things up, seen the rules for background
count level 10?
Just don't just more than once in forever there are next to none on
the physical plane as of 2057.

> <Danger! Evil thoughts increasing!>
effective but too nasty. The magician plain does not stand a chance.
They will in my opinion complain of unfair treatment and being picked
on.

Have a careful look at the basic background count rules, level 1 is
common, level 2 is pretty typical of research labs etc. Sure
centering helps but target 6's invis is a LOT less effective than
target 4. But then the mage i'm playing at the moment just bought
rythmoid polymers, why rely on magic if you can use tech and when the
going gets very bad combine them. Very expensive but this stuff
seriously works.

Mark
Message no. 26
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...) -Reply
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 21:49:07 +1000 (EST)
> That would Really hurt on alot of spells. Our current mage nearly knocks
> himself out casting a HellBlast. I think he got it more for roleplaying
> than power,

Knowing said player quite well, and having gamed with him for years, I
have to say that I doubt it :)

> But in my old game We used Force, not Force divide Two as it
> usually is. This still makes it posible to cast mana bolts with out
> taking in drain, but it makes it much more difficult. Using this you need
> fewer sucesses at high TN compared with the above. I think the above
> system would be very good to play in though, and I will suggest it to our
> group. (Esp. since I'm playing a an Ex-Cop Street Sam.) Though I dought it
> will be popular.

Speaking of one of the mages in said group, I can assure you it won't be :(

Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
"There are worse things than death...
and I can do all of them." - The Plague
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 27
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 18:31:41 +0000
On 2 Aug 96 at 8:45, Mark Steedman wrote:
> Have a careful look at the basic background count rules, level 1 is
> common, level 2 is pretty typical of research labs etc. Sure
> centering helps but target 6's invis is a LOT less effective than
> target 4. But then the mage i'm playing at the moment just bought
> rythmoid polymers, why rely on magic if you can use tech and when the
> going gets very bad combine them. Very expensive but this stuff
> seriously works.
Hm, while we are speaking of it (and just to turn the threat, err, thread back
to the spell lock thingy :-) when one has a spell (let's say Invisibility) in
a spell lock and turns it on in an area with background count - what's about
the successes of that spell?
When cast, the TN would be 4, but with BGC it would raise, so what to use? The
"successes" gained w/out the BGC, or the successes vs the modified TN?
If one says "the modified, of course", then TN-Modifiers like wounds etc would
apply, too, wouldn't they?

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 28
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 96 12:09:39 +1100
> The mage was a cybermage: hosed the first magic point for eyes,
>SGun & Skillwires. She tended to go around cloaked while PC's drew
>attention, and then wasted enemies with her smarted Steyr AUG
>(invisibility makes those Concealment TN's go through the ceiling), even
>if you could see the mage, your average TN modifier was at least +8.

Yeah... right until the first person throws a grenade NEAR you, rather
than AT you.
Or the first physad with astral perception comes along and shoots you on
general principles. :)


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 29
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Game Balance (was Re: Bullet Barriers on Locks...)
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 08:41:42 GMT
Sascha Pabst writes

> Hm, while we are speaking of it (and just to turn the threat, err, thread back
> to the spell lock thingy :-) when one has a spell (let's say Invisibility) in
> a spell lock and turns it on in an area with background count - what's about
> the successes of that spell?
> When cast, the TN would be 4, but with BGC it would raise, so what to use? The
> "successes" gained w/out the BGC, or the successes vs the modified TN?
certainly detection spells eg detect enemies are affected by this. So
you have to record the dice roll not just the successes. I suppose
its reasonable to use it for other spells on locks as well.

> If one says "the modified, of course", then TN-Modifiers like wounds etc
would
> apply, too, wouldn't they?
>
Wounds only at the time of casting, once the spells on the lock then
the lock not the mage is sustaining the spell. The mage therefore
does not matter thought the condiditon of the astral plane still will.

A lot of the modifiers such as lighting don't affact casting thats
range touch or less, you touch something you know where it is wether
you can see it or not.

Mark.

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