Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: Game Lethality
Date: Tue Jun 12 19:50:01 2001
How lethal are the games that you guys run. I just had a few sessions where
they took a few wounds but no one was in any danger of dying and they had
the situation under control at all times. I was using published adventures
(brainscan), which were supposed to be quite dangerous, but they found ways
around the danger by using their brains so I didn't slap them with any
dangerous coincidences because they had done something well thoughtout so I
let them by unmolested (mostly).
So what lethality level do you use?
Every mission is a fight for survival?
The Team is good enough not to ever fire a shot?
Or somewhere in between?
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jeffery Green)
Subject: Game Lethality
Date: Tue Jun 12 20:35:01 2001
--- Bryan Pow <powbr323@*******.otago.ac.nz> wrote:
> How lethal are the games that you guys run. I just
> had a few sessions where
> they took a few wounds but no one was in any danger
> of dying and they had
> the situation under control at all times. I was
> using published adventures
> (brainscan), which were supposed to be quite
> dangerous, but they found ways
> around the danger by using their brains so I didn't
> slap them with any
> dangerous coincidences because they had done
> something well thoughtout so I
> let them by unmolested (mostly).
> So what lethality level do you use?

With our team it veries from episode to episode. It
comes down to just one thing did we plan something out
well enough to get away with it and did we follow
through with the plan and not change it in the middle.



> Every mission is a fight for survival?

Not every mission, some misions have been a walk in
the park it all depends on the plan the team makes.



> The Team is good enough not to ever fire a shot?

We were at one missin where we ended up doing somthing
stupid and found ourselves striped to our birthday
suits and got out of there alive.



> Or somewhere in between?

Most of our missions could go either way just depends
on how we go in.


>>>>>[Plan the good plan then screw it up to make a
beter plan; In the end it comes down to one thing; Who
has the bigest gun, and the most explosives]<<<<<
-Jeffery Green (19:34:30/5-12-2061)


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Josh Munn)
Subject: Game Lethality
Date: Tue Jun 12 20:55:01 2001
--- Bryan Pow <powbr323@*******.otago.ac.nz> wrote:
> How lethal are the games that you guys run. I just had a few sessions
> where
> they took a few wounds but no one was in any danger of dying and they
> had
> the situation under control at all times. I was using published
> adventures
> (brainscan), which were supposed to be quite dangerous, but they
> found ways
> around the danger by using their brains so I didn't slap them with
> any
> dangerous coincidences because they had done something well
> thoughtout so I
> let them by unmolested (mostly).
> So what lethality level do you use?
> Every mission is a fight for survival?
> The Team is good enough not to ever fire a shot?
> Or somewhere in between?
>
When I was the gm my adventures seemed to allway end up with one of the
player characters close to death (one time the guy was one box away
from maxing his overflow). When I was a player it all depended on how
well we planned the run and how mean the gm was fealing that day. I
remember one run in which no of us even got hit and in the process we
took out nine guards. Another run we entirely hosed. In this case
every character except mine was either killed or captured by lonestar.
It wasn't my fault that the run was hosed and my character got some
incredibly good rolls (I had a grenade chucked at me an shot it out of
the air, rolled a 35:) so the gm let my character get out of there
alive and free. Yet another time we did everything by the book,
perfect plan, perfect execution, lots of good luck, and still we were
in a constant fight to stay one head away from getting geeked.

====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Game Lethality
Date: Wed Jun 13 02:50:02 2001
On 12-Jun-01 Bryan Pow wrote:
> How lethal are the games that you guys run. I just had a few
> sessions where
> they took a few wounds but no one was in any danger of dying and
> they had
> the situation under control at all times. I was using published
> adventures
> (brainscan), which were supposed to be quite dangerous, but they
> found ways
> around the danger by using their brains so I didn't slap them with
> any
> dangerous coincidences because they had done something well
> thoughtout so I
> let them by unmolested (mostly).
> So what lethality level do you use?

For the average over-night run not very high. Normal Sec-Guys are
simple not good enough to stop Runner. But when I worked out a big run
(ca. 3 gaming sessions) there are some parts with a high lethality
level, and they become even higher if the players don't think about
what they are doing :)

> Every mission is a fight for survival?

No

> The Team is good enough not to ever fire a shot?

Not really - even if I plan that they have not to shot, they do


- Burning Avatar

----------------------------------
BA's data haven
http://home.t-online.de/home/tobias.d/srmain.htm
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Game Lethality
Date: Wed Jun 13 03:10:01 2001
Bryan Pow writes:

> How lethal are the games that you guys run. I just had a few sessions where
> they took a few wounds but no one was in any danger of dying and they had
> the situation under control at all times. I was using published adventures
> (brainscan), which were supposed to be quite dangerous, but they found ways
> around the danger by using their brains so I didn't slap them with any
> dangerous coincidences because they had done something well thoughtout so I
> let them by unmolested (mostly).
> So what lethality level do you use?
> Every mission is a fight for survival?
> The Team is good enough not to ever fire a shot?
> Or somewhere in between?

It varies, like anything does. Some runs are milk runs, in which the PCs
need only use their dim witted dinky little brains, and perhaps brandish a
weapon or two (or maybe even use one if they feel violently enough
inclined). Some runs are death traps where one wrong move could result in
16D armour piercing... Mostly the PCs determine the level of lethality by
their own actions or incompetence. If they meet something big and nasty (a
red samurai squad for instance), then if they choose to duke it out they do
so with the knowledge that they may well get geeked, while if they turn tails
and run, then they do so with the knowledge that the run may not get
completed, or that they'll have to figure out a different way around things.

In general, I find that the attrition rate of combat oriented characters
(usually known as "goons" in my games) is rather high, perhaps one every two
runs will find that purchasing some real estate down by the old church is an
attractive proposition. This is, of course, rather directly and inversely
related to the low attrition rate of less combat oriented characters, who,
in an effort to preserve their own butts, tend to get the combat freaks
killed more often ("you three hold down the enemy, and the two of us will
prepare the subject for interrogation"). In the example, if all five
characters had participated in holding down the enemy, and then
interrogating the subject, then each one would have had, say, a 5% chance of
biting the big one. But with only three people to draw and provide fire,
the chance goes up dramatically, to like a 20% chance of getting greased.

A number of runs have been performed without a shot ever being fired. A
larger number of runs have been performed with top notch planning and
execution, so that when shots were fired, the lead only ever flew from the
PCs to the bad guys, or the exchance lasted less than a full Combat Turn
before all opposition was vanquished.

Some missions, however, require double figure karma usage just to escape
with 9 boxes of Physical damage...

To be honest, I find that in my games, internal conflict between PCs tends
to generate just as much PC death as external forces controlled by the GM.
Shadowrunners are highly individualistic people, and usually extremely
selfish ones at that. And they're all pretty much sociopaths, or
psychopaths, and all too willing to kill at a moments notice. If things get
heated, as they often do between characters with differring perspectives,
especially ones with those dumb-arsed flaws like Vindictive (if you take
that, you're just aking for trouble!), then while it's uncommon for open
fighting to ensure, it's quite common for "tactical" decisions to be made
that may benefit or rather disadvantage another character disproportionately.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GE d- s++:-- a24 C++ US++>+++ P+ L++>+++ E- W+>++ N++ o@ K- w+(--) O-@
M-- V- PS+ PE(-) Y+>++ PGP-@>++ t+ 5 X++>+++ R+(++) !tv(--) b+ DI+++@
D G+ e++>++++$ h(*) r++ y-(--)
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Game Lethality
Date: Wed Jun 13 04:25:00 2001
>How lethal are the games that you guys run. I just had a few sessions where
>they took a few wounds but no one was in any danger of dying and they had
>the situation under control at all times. I was using published adventures
>(brainscan), which were supposed to be quite dangerous, but they found ways
>around the danger by using their brains so I didn't slap them with any
>dangerous coincidences because they had done something well thoughtout so I
>let them by unmolested (mostly).
>So what lethality level do you use?
I used to balance it out and try to go for a realistic level. Of
course recently I had to throw that idea out the window.... (fraggin
Dragon).

>Every mission is a fight for survival?
No. Although I would like to run a fairly experienced team through
both Brainscan and Harlequin's Back.

>The Team is good enough not to ever fire a shot?
Oh Ghost no. But neather are they good enough to make every shot
count either.

>Or somewhere in between?
They use to be somewhere between, but with my one player, well I'm
not going to boost all the other players up to his level nor am I going to
make the Dragon carry the team.
I think I have to admit that I like the challenge of trying to roleplay a
dragon into the group.
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: Game Lethality
Date: Wed Jun 13 10:25:00 2001
At 11:45 AM 6/13/2001 +1200, Bryan Pow wrote:
>How lethal are the games that you guys run. I just had a few sessions where
>they took a few wounds but no one was in any danger of dying and they had
>the situation under control at all times. I was using published adventures
>(brainscan), which were supposed to be quite dangerous, but they found ways
>around the danger by using their brains so I didn't slap them with any
>dangerous coincidences because they had done something well thoughtout so I
>let them by unmolested (mostly).
> So what lethality level do you use?
> Every mission is a fight for survival?
> The Team is good enough not to ever fire a shot?
> Or somewhere in between?

99% of the time I let the players set the lethality of the game. If they
completely screw up, they suffer the consequences. If they do a great job,
they reap the rewards.

There is that 1% of the time where I set up an encounter with the intent of
a predetermined outcome. Sometimes the plan is to put the fear of god in
the PCs by presenting them with a near unstoppable NPC who wants to hurt
the PCs badly. Again, if the PCs somehow manage to overcome this foe, then
I let them and they reap the rewards of being smart. On the other hand, if
the PCs show extremely poor judgement in such an encounter and a death or
two results... <shrug> death happens.

But, *I* never create an encounter with the goal of killing one or more
PCs. And if I make an error in judgement and it turns out that an
encounter is much more lethal then I planned on, I make adjustments on the
fly to downgrade it (hits become misses, LoneStar arrives, etc.).

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
--
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ciscon, Ray)
Subject: Game Lethality
Date: Wed Jun 13 12:10:02 2001
Bryan wrote:
Subject: Game Lethality

How lethal are the games that you guys run. I just had a few sessions where
they took a few wounds but no one was in any danger of dying and they had
the situation under control at all times. I was using published adventures
(brainscan), which were supposed to be quite dangerous, but they found ways
around the danger by using their brains so I didn't slap them with any
dangerous coincidences because they had done something well thoughtout so I
let them by unmolested (mostly).
So what lethality level do you use?
Every mission is a fight for survival?
The Team is good enough not to ever fire a shot?
Or somewhere in between?

Jeffery Green wrote:

From: Jeffery Green <jefferylgreen@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Game Lethality

With our team it veries from episode to episode. It comes down to just one
thing did we plan something out well enough to get away with it and did we
follow through with the plan and not change it in the middle.

> Every mission is a fight for survival?

Not every mission, some misions have been a walk in the park it all depends
on the plan the team makes.

> The Team is good enough not to ever fire a shot?

We were at one missin where we ended up doing something stupid and found
ourselves striped to our birthday suits and got out of there alive.

> Or somewhere in between?

Most of our missions could go either way just depends on how we go in.

==============
I GM the game that Jeffery Green plays in, and I have to agree with him and
add the following factors that I use in my game:

The danger level facing the player characters should match the strength of
their adversaries in the scenario. For example, should the PC's, a
half-dozen highly armed, highly trained, professional Shadowrunners get into
a scuffle with some gang-bangers in a bar, they probably don't have to worry
much about getting killed, IOW, the lethality level is LOW.

Should those same runners find themselves on a boat in the Strait of Juan de
Fuca and discover that an extremely well equipped terrorist organization has
just launched a sea-skimming anti-shipping missile at them, they're in
trouble! In this case, through quick thinking and a bit of luck, the avoided
getting their boat destroyed, and quickly left the area, making plans on how
they were going to get inside the terrorist compound without getting
themselves killed. Had they pressed on, and continued toward the shore,
they'd have faced two or three missiles, the certain destruction of their
boat, and their likely deaths.

The key to any group of runners success is to know when to fight and to know
when to withdraw. If you put your runners up against an enemy that SHOULD
kick their asses, do not hesitate to do so, but NEVER purposely put them in
a position where they're going to face almost certain death and have no way
out.

My team of runners has gotten pretty good at learning how to take care of
issues without an outrageous level of violence. Situations where a well
piloted observation drone, a levitation spell, or a cleverly placed sniper
would work as well or better than an hour and a half of running gunfight
seem to be their forte.

If you design a scenario and the player characters think of a really clever
way to get around all of the obstacles you've set up, don't be afraid to let
them get away with it, THAT ONE TIME. Make sure in the next scenario that
you take their previous tactics into account and work in something different
to stop them.

Never get vindictive or seek vengeance upon your players for escaping from
what you thought was a particularly clever trap if they did it through quick
thinking and/or luck. Every dog has their day.

Every mission shouldn't be a fight for survival... relentless danger is good
for short periods of time, but it gets boring very quickly. Build small,
fun, humorous scenarios around your players contacts or relatives. I'm just
about to spring a huge surprise on one of my players, not you Jeff, that is
going to totally ruin his characters personal life... but it's going to be
so much fun!

There have indeed been missions where they solved the scenario with little
or no gunplay. If they can role-play their through a problem they deserve
the rewards. For example, they need information from a low-level corporate
tech dweeb... they can pull this guy off the street and beat the information
out of him, or they can send their female elf with an 8 charisma to get the
info out of him in a different manner. Both methods can work, but one of
them is a lot less dangerous and has a lot less exposure than the other.

To summarize, the lethality level should match the opponent... my game is
currently set in mid 2051, and the team already has 'enemies' (Universal
Brotherhood/Bugs, Aztlan blood magic research, Tir Tairngire, Code V, etc.)
that they know will kick their asses if they go after them in too obvious a
manner.

Cheers,

Ray Ciscon
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Game Lethality
Date: Wed Jun 13 12:45:05 2001
>At 11:45 AM 6/13/2001 +1200, Bryan Pow wrote:
>>How lethal are the games that you guys run. I just had a few sessions
where
>>they took a few wounds but no one was in any danger of dying and they had
>>the situation under control at all times. I was using published adventures
>>(brainscan), which were supposed to be quite dangerous, but they found
ways
>>around the danger by using their brains so I didn't slap them with any
>>dangerous coincidences because they had done something well thoughtout so
I
>>let them by unmolested (mostly).
>> So what lethality level do you use?
>> Every mission is a fight for survival?
>> The Team is good enough not to ever fire a shot?
>> Or somewhere in between?

>99% of the time I let the players set the lethality of the game. If they
>completely screw up, they suffer the consequences. If they do a great job,

>they reap the rewards.

>There is that 1% of the time where I set up an encounter with the intent of

>a predetermined outcome. Sometimes the plan is to put the fear of god in
>the PCs by presenting them with a near unstoppable NPC who wants to hurt
>the PCs badly. Again, if the PCs somehow manage to overcome this foe, then

>I let them and they reap the rewards of being smart. On the other hand, if

>the PCs show extremely poor judgement in such an encounter and a death or
>two results... <shrug> death happens.

>But, *I* never create an encounter with the goal of killing one or more
>PCs. And if I make an error in judgement and it turns out that an
>encounter is much more lethal then I planned on, I make adjustments on the
>fly to downgrade it (hits become misses, LoneStar arrives, etc.).

>To Life,
>-Graht
>ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
>--

This brings up something I've been meaning to ask. How do you guys roleplay
the atmosphere of
the shadows? Is it down and dirty/nitty-gritty (ala BladeRunner) where life
sucks for those in the barrens, it shows, there's no hope and everything
sucks? Is it where the runners don't make the headlines, neither do they
make waves, they just are there for the sake of keeping the status quo? Or
are the runners THE movers and shakers of the Shadows (of Seattle at least)
are Nova hot and everyone wants them or wants to be them?

So, are they just gears in the machine, the waste produced by the machine,
or the guys that control the machine?
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Game Lethality
Date: Wed Jun 13 12:55:01 2001
Valeu John EMFA writes:

> This brings up something I've been meaning to ask. How do you guys roleplay
> the atmosphere of
> the shadows? Is it down and dirty/nitty-gritty (ala BladeRunner) where life
> sucks for those in the barrens, it shows, there's no hope and everything
> sucks? Is it where the runners don't make the headlines, neither do they
> make waves, they just are there for the sake of keeping the status quo? Or
> are the runners THE movers and shakers of the Shadows (of Seattle at least)
> are Nova hot and everyone wants them or wants to be them?
>
> So, are they just gears in the machine, the waste produced by the machine,
> or the guys that control the machine?

I guess my answer to that is "it depends upon how good they get". The same
as anyone in their chosen profession. Not every economics major fresh out
of university becomes a government treasurer or high flying corporate
executive and is able to influence national economies or the jobs of tens of
thousands of people. Plenty do just fine in mid to lower level positions.
Most shadowrunner are probably little more than glorified gangers, perhaps
wizeguys or thugs. The cream of the crop, so to speak, are the ones who can
topple corporations by their actions, and who will be sought after (for
better or for worse) because of these capabilities. PC runners probably
start out in the middle somewhere, they're already well above the general
rabble, but they've got a long haul to the top 2% as well. After a couple
of hundred in Karma awards (ie, quite a while of playing), they'll begin to
hit their stride and make their mark.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GE d- s++:-- a24 C++ US++>+++ P+ L++>+++ E- W+>++ N++ o@ K- w+(--) O-@
M-- V- PS+ PE(-) Y+>++ PGP-@>++ t+ 5 X++>+++ R+(++) !tv(--) b+ DI+++@
D G+ e++>++++$ h(*) r++ y-(--)
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Hahns Shin)
Subject: Game Lethality
Date: Thu Jun 14 01:25:01 2001
> How lethal are the games that you guys run. I just had a few sessions
where
> they took a few wounds but no one was in any danger of dying and they had
> the situation under control at all times. I was using published adventures
> (brainscan), which were supposed to be quite dangerous, but they found
ways
> around the danger by using their brains so I didn't slap them with any
> dangerous coincidences because they had done something well thoughtout so
I
> let them by unmolested (mostly).
> So what lethality level do you use?
> Every mission is a fight for survival?
> The Team is good enough not to ever fire a shot?
> Or somewhere in between?
Well, lethality and power level highly depends on the particular campaign in
my group. In the past, we have run everything from Street Level campaigns to
"Save the World or Die Trying" high power level campaigns (with Spirit
Forces in the double digits and weapon damage codes to match... Lofwyr makes
guest appearances, hilarity ensues), and the lethality between campaigns was
seemingly random. Heck, even across the same campaign, the power level and
lethality can fluctuate greatly. I ran an arcology game where I made the
characters for the players and 2 of the 5 ended up dying. We had a street
campaign which ended when everyone but the decker died. We even had a
two-pronged CalFree game (I was GMing for two groups at the time) in which
no one died until the very last run (where half of both groups died... we
combined both groups in a powerful climax that involved a double digit Great
Form Blood Spirit and the Blood Mage Gestalt. In what was probably the most
brash and awesome event that I've ever seen in a session, the resident druid
took his weapon focus, astrally projected, and attacked the spirit... and
won! I couldn't believe it, but the God of Multiple Six-Sided Dice was
smiling on him that day). In past experiences, the phrase "Out of Karma
Pool" usually coincided with "Better call DocWagon" or "Uh-Oh".
When I GM,
the lethality is set so that stupidity will get you at least into the
hospital, and even well-planned runs will get you several wounds. The
characters that are unwounded are either lucky or stayed away from the
frontline. My players expect this and love it, and claim that when a
character is added to the graveyard, it gives them a chance to try out a new
one... go figure.

Also, we have a rotational GM system in our group for most of our games
(except for "special" campaigns that are run in specific locales/times), and
the lethality clearly varies across the GMs. If Aaron is GMing, you can
expect dangerous group tactics, but relatively benign magic. If Jason is
GMing, expect a magical barrage, but don't worry about the mil-spec
armor/weapons. If Steve is GMing, you won't have to worry about the double
cross (he's never done one, despite my suggestions). If I'm GMing... well,
expect to be double-crossed, involved in conspiracies beyond your control,
and no matter what you do, the corp wins, whether or not you complete the
run. I think I'm also the only GM that has a contingency plan at all times
in case the runners actually turn down the run (which they have on
occasion). My group is also not afraid to cut-and-run when the odds
overwhelm them.

In short, they have to earn the survival point of Karma, whether by being
clever enough to survive or by being a coward. And my players have good
days and bad days (and when I play, I have good days and bad days... my
character once walked right into a gun emplacement that he didn't bother to
check for). We have never changed the rules to change the lethality
(figuring the current game is lethal enough), and there's always Hand of
God. *grin*

Hahns Shin, MS II
Budding cybersurgeon
Def.: Idiot - A member of a large and powerful tribe that has influenced the
entirety of human civilization.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Game Lethality, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!