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Message no. 1
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text (was Money and ID)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:18:06 -0800 (PST)
> Do you also believe that the character would buy WR
> lvl 2? Or would he
> buy "Renraku SpeedEnhancer 2060" (ok that's a
> ruibbish name)? It comes
> back to whether the stats are merely GAME mechanics
> or whether the
> characters are aware of them. I don't see people
> walking round referring
> to stats in the way this indicates - a skill level
> of 8 is world
> class/genius (the rulebook tells me so) - would your
> character say "He's
> got pistols:8" or would it be "He's world-class with
> a pistol"

This is a small part of a greater problem in almost
every game I've ever run, in any genre. I have heard
Shadowrun novels blasted by arm-chair critics because
the characters in the books "violate the rules". I
heard those same criticisms of numerous D&D/AD&D
novels 5 (6, 7, 10) years ago. And about White Wolf
WoD novels. I have discovered that you can have a lot
of fun with those books by trying to re-express the
flavor text in terms of game mechanics. And by
looking at the whole picture presented by the author.
I'm going to borrow R.A. Salvator's pet drow elf for
the FR setting as an example. I have lost track of
the number of times I have heard someone say, "Wow, he
must have like a 22 DEX!" Sure, that is one
possibility. Or maybe that amazing
dodge/counter-attack could be looked at differently.
Maybe his opponent rolled a 2 or a 3 on his attack
roll that round, while the drow rolled a 17. The
attacker missed, the drow didn't. How many times have
we heard this in a game session: "the guy misses
you...you hit him, doing..."? Bob Salvatore would
have sold exactly no books with your typical TT game
descriptions. Maybe the authors of books aren't so
much ignoring the rules as they are making them
transparent. A combat exchange is a blur of attack
and defense, whether it is one guy shooting and
another dancing around trying not to get ventillated,
or two people with rapiers tapping back and forth
until one slips a thrust inside. When is the last
time we (as players and GMs) put a little storytelling
effort into our games. "You hit", "He misses", "She
crashes", "the IC is destroyed", "the Devil Rat falls
over dead"...come on! Boring. Go back to 2XS and the
inimitable Dirk Montgomery. Watch him stagger away
from a gun fights where "the slug hit his duster like
a basball bat in the hands of an angry troll, knocking
him into dumpster", and "fortunately the trusty
composite plates kept his lungs from sprouting holes,
but he could already feel the bruise forming". He
"pops up to return fire blindly before dashing to new
cover". Etc, etc, etc. (paraphrased, not actual text
in book) One could, with a little imagination, hear
the GM saying, "He hits, staging up to Deadly, roll
Body". And the player replying, "Let's see, long coat
and FFBA for 6 armor, thats a Predator right?, so
3's...add some combat pool...>>rattle rattle
roll<<...sweet! that should take it back to a medium,
and with that Trauma Damper, I take 2 phys, 1 stun."
BORING!!!!!!!!!! Fragging speadsheet programs can do
most of that! The novel is gripping precisely because
the author made the game machanics go away. Every
prospective GM ought to read some SR flavor text, and
try to see the mechanics fit, so they can work the
same transparency into their games.

This is true in every aspect of the game. Cyberware?
Drek yes! One of my best NPCs was a crippled rigger
named Amanda. She had a Hephaestus Mark IV vehicle
interface from ChromoSapien Inc (aka VCR II). Later,
when she got a modified MBW system to bypass the
spinal damage that refused bio-regen therapy, it was
not a Move By Wire 1. It was an experimental Reodex
Systems CAISM (computer aided induced seizure-based
movement). On the exceedingly rare occasions I've
been able to make a PC, I try to keep track of the
brand, history, and explanation of each piece of
cyberware or bioware installed. All chrome is NOT
created equal. I like to buy flawless cyberware and
intoduce quirks for which there are no point kickbacks
or bonuses. Nothing ridiculous or GAME MECHANIC
effecting, but fun roleplaying flavor.

The same is true for any stat in the game, from
attibute to skill points. Just for fun, next time you
make a PC or an NPC, write a one paragraph description
of their stats before assigning any numbers. Include
a description of their reaction, and describe the
effects of the approximate Essence/Bio INdex you are
planning on. For example:
Susan is of average height for a troll, but a lot of
time at the gym has layered her muscle on hard. She
kept up the isometrics to keep the muscle hard, but
her flexibility still suffers some. Her fitness makes
her healthy. All that training took a certain amount
of discipline, and it shows in her stubborn attitude.
She's a bit focused, and tends to ignore things not
directly related to the task at hand. This causes her
to miss things, especially little details like subtle
cues in someone's body language. If they have
something to say, they should just say it. Ever since
the accident that started her physical fitness kick,
she feels a little less metahuman, a little more
machine. Not her fault, and not to say she's
cold-hearted, but she's bit detached. Multiple
kilograms of aluminum fused to your skeleton and
microprocessor for half your brain will do that. She
gets by, but, unless you know her well, your going to
get your feelings hurt appealing to her soft side.
It's been gone since that City Master bounced it off a
wall.

B: 9 (10) C: 2 R: 3
Q: 3 I: 3 E: about 2
S: 11 W: 5

Now you have a start to her history, some idea of
skills (athletics and knowledge of body building,
physical therapy) If you went ahead and wrote her
hisotry before you assigned any other stats or gear,
you'd be able to do those with equal ease.

Almost every player I've ever hated has gone looking
for game bonuses in the flavor text. "Well, now, if
it says she is so disciplined, why isn't that a 7
Willpower?", "Only a 2 for Charisma, what is she
ugly?", and "The description didn't say she was so
dumb and slow." Or to put it another way:
"Oo oo oo, it says Drizzt did a spinny blocking
counter thingy...that must be a 22 Dex!"

Maybe that elf with "keen eyes that take in
everything, to be calculated carefully before any
decision is made" actually has a 6 Intelligence, and
his 3 Willpower is his "tendency to think before
acting, questioning even his own decisions". Perhaps
the "rippling muscles on the dwarf's sturdy frame" are
representative of a 6 Strength, and her 3 Quickness
might just be that all that muscle makes her "just
that little bit less flexible than she'd like".

Either one might very much enjoy the Xcaliber Trushot
1.4 Linksystem (smartlink 2) and a fine pair of
Optimar Spec9's with all the gadgets (cybereyes and
mods). And I'll bet they both prefer the Remington
Devastator .50 (Ares Predator) to the Colt .45
Persuader (Ares Predator). It's got those sharper
lines and just "feels" more balanced in the hand. And
no Reverend Munchkin of the First Church of Drizzt
Dexterity, none of them have any different stats.
Just different flavor text. Stats are abstract
concepts to streamline game mechanics. Your
character, on the other hand, just called Suzie
Strongfist ugly and slow, might I suggest a twirly
dodgy runny thingy ASAP? No, I don't mean you
suddenly have a 19 Quickness and Troll Barrier 12. I
mean that perhaps you should add some Combat Pool to
your Unarmed Combat roll and then think aout
retreating if you are still in one piece.

======Korishinzo
--apologies to all who found that post overly verbose



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Message no. 2
From: trunks@********.org (kawaii)
Subject: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text (was Money and ID)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 15:59:06 -0500
From: "Ice Heart" <korishinzo@*****.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 15:18


<well said statement of attaching flavor text to represent game mechanics>


> Either one might very much enjoy the Xcaliber Trushot
> 1.4 Linksystem (smartlink 2) and a fine pair of
> Optimar Spec9's with all the gadgets (cybereyes and
> mods). And I'll bet they both prefer the Remington
> Devastator .50 (Ares Predator) to the Colt .45
> Persuader (Ares Predator). It's got those sharper

I agree with everything up until this point. This is where I went, "mmm,
they gave us a bunch of guns, that were nearly identical, so we didn't go
and make up more guns.." ;)

While the cyberware deserves the tagging and naming, I've always stuck by
the gun names. You are either using an Ares Pred or not. Maybe you prefer
Colt (same damage) because they are a good old american brand (as opposed to
those upstart Ares folks), or maybe you like the Defiant, because it is a
tazer. Whatever the reason, you don't need to re-do weapons, I don't think.

> lines and just "feels" more balanced in the hand. And
> no Reverend Munchkin of the First Church of Drizzt
> Dexterity, none of them have any different stats.

And Drizzt does have a 22 dex. ;)

>
> ======> Korishinzo

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii

"Cunnilingus and psychiatry brought us to this." - Tony Soprano
Message no. 3
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text (was Money and ID)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:36:30 -0800 (PST)
> > Either one might very much enjoy the Xcaliber
> Trushot
> > 1.4 Linksystem (smartlink 2) and a fine pair of
> > Optimar Spec9's with all the gadgets (cybereyes
> and
> > mods). And I'll bet they both prefer the
> Remington
> > Devastator .50 (Ares Predator) to the Colt .45
> > Persuader (Ares Predator). It's got those sharper
>
> I agree with everything up until this point. This is
> where I went, "mmm,
> they gave us a bunch of guns, that were nearly
> identical, so we didn't go
> and make up more guns.." ;)

Well, now this is true, but back in the early days of
SR, it was not. I got in the habit of giving
different NPCs different guns but not altering the
stats any. They were identical in terms of game
mechanics, but had different descriptions. The
Remington Devastator .50 was one, the Colt .45
Persuader another. Both were 100% identical to the
Predator in game mechanics terms. Each had a
different look and "feel". Macho sammies liked the
bulky look and weight of the Remington, while
bodyguards often went in for the sleeker, streamlined
Colt. All I ever needed to know was that it used
heavy pistol range and did 9M. All the players ever
needed to know was that, well...the macho types like
the .50, and the understated types liked the Colt. 30
Pistols with the same stats is more realistic to me
than 30 pistols with ALMOST the same stats. Since the
goal is to make the stats transparent, simplification
is ideal. I have read waaaay too many debates about
what caliber equals what damage code, and so on. I
make things like caliber, ballistics profile, muzzle
flash, grain count, slide sound, and so on all come
down to flavor text. "This guy was definately hit
with the Ranger. See? The Koppelta and the FN both
use a heavier slug with slower tumble. The Ranger
goes for lighter, longer slugs and high grain count.
Fast tumble for the same overall wound trauma."
(Damage 14S all around, range as per sniper
rifles...the Barret was the dumbest gun ever
introduced...munchkin food through and through.) My
players LOVE to play detective over rules lawyer (the
ones that last anyway). "Drek, these guys are using
the Tumult .22 Fastfire!"..."What? How do you
know?"..."Listen to that slide! High cyclic rate.
They will chew into you like monowire through
butter."..."Wow...that is bad."..."Sure is, keep your
heads down." Is the Tumult any different from an
Ingram in terms of stats? No. Is there any
difference between a troll with an 9 Strength and an
orc with a 9 strength? No. One looks more buff, but
they both do the ~exact same~ damage with a punch.
They can both lift ~exactly the same~ amount. A human
with a Charisma of 5 and an Elf with a Charisma of 5
have exaclty the same dice, but one might be gorgeous
and shallow, while the other had a dominant
personality and a scarred visage. IMO, all Heavy
Pistols, prior to any custom mods, should have
IDENTICAL stats. I'd sooner buy an SR sourcebook with
pages of only descriptions and pictures and Shadowtalk
than another book full of incrementally different gun
stats. Stupid and unnecessary. The next gear book I
see for SR should have descrptions of soy food
processors, a list of Trid channels, descriptions and
prices for consumer hardware like door locks. Have
you ever tried to find out what monwire costs per
meter? Not a monowhip. Not the damage it does. A
spool of monowire. The kind some sec chief had to
cost out for accounting to approve. How much?
Because my fragging players want to buy monowire and
maglocks and a kitchen stove for their safehouse. We
don't need stats on how the damage, range, and
concealability of a the Easybake Mark 6 differ by 1
number from those of the QuickCook Alpha. Part of
what makes it so difficult for players and GMs to
embrace flavor text is that the sourcebooks have less
and less of it. The pinnicle of Rigger 3 for me is
the alternate vehicle names under each type. Finally,
a sportcar besides the Westwind, a security chopper
besides the Yellowjacket, and a truck besides the GMC
bulldog. Now, if I could just get some more artwork
and shadowtalk.

> While the cyberware deserves the tagging and naming,
> I've always stuck by
> the gun names. You are either using an Ares Pred or
> not. Maybe you prefer
> Colt (same damage) because they are a good old
> american brand (as opposed to
> those upstart Ares folks), or maybe you like the
> Defiant, because it is a
> tazer. Whatever the reason, you don't need to re-do
> weapons, I don't think.

Other than a few less stats, I agree.

> > lines and just "feels" more balanced in the hand.
> And
> > no Reverend Munchkin of the First Church of Drizzt
> > Dexterity, none of them have any different stats.
>
> And Drizzt does have a 22 dex. ;)

Only in the newest source materials for the Munchkin
Realms. The FR I played in had Cattie Brie listed as
3rd level and Drizzt had a 15 Dex. Of course
Elminster was almost not a travesty back then too.

======Korishinzo
--Consider this: the monowhip does less damage than a
dikoted combat axe in the hands of an average toll
(ignoring armor), but I'll bet the monowhip scares you
more at first blush...its all in the flavor text.

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Message no. 4
From: mamos@*****.com (Mike Amos)
Subject: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text (was Money and ID)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 15:43:18 -0700
>The next gear book I
.see for SR should have descrptions of soy food
>processors, a list of Trid channels, descriptions and
>prices for consumer hardware like door locks. Have
>you ever tried to find out what monwire costs per
>meter? Not a monowhip. Not the damage it does. A
>spool of monowire. The kind some sec chief had to
>cost out for accounting to approve. How much?
>Because my fragging players want to buy monowire and
>maglocks and a kitchen stove for their safehouse.

Ahh, a kindred spirit. I too pine for such a creation. However, can you
imagine the constant debate. "Why is a stove 350 when a microwave is only
240." I can't blame any of the producers of Shadowrun for wanting to steer
clear of such topics. I can also only imagine the complaints from people who
feel the time could have been spent better on a new source book about their
home town of Podunk, WI. I would say at this point your best bet is a equal
parts SR novels, fanfiction, and creativity.
Message no. 5
From: arclight@*********.de (Arclight)
Subject: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text (was Money and ID)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 23:43:06 +0100
At 13:36 04.12.2002 -0800, Ice Heart wrote:

<snip>

>Have you ever tried to find out what monwire costs per
>meter? Not a monowhip. Not the damage it does. A
>spool of monowire. The kind some sec chief had to
>cost out for accounting to approve. How much?

AFAICR you can find that in "Corporate Security". And if I hadn't packed
all my stuff already, I'd look it up. Something like 5¥ per 1m or so ...



--
Arclight

Tell me what you need, and I'll tell you how to get along without it.
Message no. 6
From: flakjacket@***********.com (flakjacket@***********.com)
Subject: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text (was Money and ID)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:49:07 +0000 (GMT)
Mike Amoswrote:

> >Because my fragging players want to buy monowire and
> >maglocks and a kitchen stove for their safehouse.
>
> Ahh, a kindred spirit. I too pine for such a creation. However, can you
> imagine the constant debate. "Why is a stove 350 when a microwave is only
> 240." I can't blame any of the producers of Shadowrun for wanting to steer
> clear of such topics. I can also only imagine the complaints from people who
> feel the time could have been spent better on a new source book about their
> home town of Podunk, WI. I would say at this point your best bet is a equal
> parts SR novels, fanfiction, and creativity.

The general line in the past has been that for everyday stuff like food or other things
that aren't specialised equipment or covered in the books, you simply convert the current
dollar price to nuyen. So if a microwave today costs say $80, then your PC's would pay 80
nuyen.
Message no. 7
From: Shannon@*****.co.za (Shannon Buys)
Subject: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text (was Money and ID)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:32:50 +0200
Iceheart wrote:

This is a small part of a greater problem in almost
every game I've ever run, in any genre. I have heard
Shadowrun novels blasted by arm-chair critics because

<BIG SNIP!!>

suddenly have a 19 Quickness and Troll Barrier 12. I
mean that perhaps you should add some Combat Pool to
your Unarmed Combat roll and then think aout
retreating if you are still in one piece.

================================================Wow, this is one of the best posts I've
read in a long time. I've forwarded
this mail to all my players cause this is the kind of mindframe I've been
trying to get accross without finding the right words.

You must be one kickass GM.
Message no. 8
From: Gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text (was Money and ID)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:00:18 +0100
According to Ice Heart, on Wed, 04 Dec 2002 the word on the street was...

> I have discovered that you can have a lot
> of fun with those books by trying to re-express the
> flavor text in terms of game mechanics.

You mean you actually sat down and tried to do that? You must have even
less to do than I have ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Je moet knoeien met de riemen die je hebt.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: Shannon@*****.co.za (Shannon Buys)
Subject: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text (was Money and ID)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:46:48 +0200
According to Ice Heart, on Wed, 04 Dec 2002 the word on the street was...

> I have discovered that you can have a lot
> of fun with those books by trying to re-express the
> flavor text in terms of game mechanics.

Gurth wrote:

You mean you actually sat down and tried to do that? You must have even
less to do than I have ;)
_--------------------------------
So have I, I read most game related books this way, It just seems so much
more fun. The Dragonlance trilogy books are perfect for this.

I even tried to draw up Dirk Montgomery's stats, I don't think I could make
any of them above 5, and those would be few and far between. I wonder if
Nigel Findley actually played Dirk as a character?

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