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From:	Wafflemiesters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Gaming history / architypes
Date:	Mon, 16 Mar 1998 04:55:18 -0600

Message no. 1 SR is, as far as I know, the only RPG with "quick play" characters that
is
still being produced.
That is part of the reason that SR is retaining it's capability as a
"developing line of products", because they have found a way to combat
not
only distribution, but "quick and easy play" as well.
Anyone with knowledge of the other major gaming systems, please, feel
free to
leap in and correct me, but essentially I think I am correct.

+++===+++===+++===+++===+++

DnD moduals always had "Tournement" characters, and Vampire Clanbooks
have pre-made characters. I wonder if something so simple really boosts
game sales that much? Maybe so.

SR isn't so good a game for playing an architype, in my experience, but
that's because they don't have the whiz gear most GM's allow. They are
not all bad, and definatley get the idea of the system's strength
(verastility) across.
Earthdawn's architypes, OTHO, are actually quite good, and stronger
"numbers wise" than the most often used character creation process
allows. While technically true of some SR "architypos", they still just
never seem to be what people want to play- then again, making SR
characters is kinda fun, min-maxed or not, because they can be so
varied.

Mongoose

From:	Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: Gaming history / architypes
Date:	Mon, 16 Mar 1998 06:37:24 -0800

Message no. 2 Wafflemiesters wrote:

> SR isn't so good a game for playing an architype, in my experience, but
> that's because they don't have the whiz gear most GM's allow. They are
> not all bad, and definatley get the idea of the system's strength
> (verastility) across.

The archetypes are so far behind SOTA that it's not funny -- but then,
at the time SR2 was being released, Shadowtech was just coming onto the
shelves and Cybertechnology was a gleam in some freelancer's eye. Kind
of hard to give them the cool stuff when it hasn't been created yet. :P

It'll be interesting to see if, in SR3, they implement bioware (and
perhaps the toys from C-tech) as standard rules.

-Matt

------------------------------------
Beware the man who casts two shadows.

GridSec: SRCard / Wolf in Shepherd's Clothing
Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Gaming history / architypes
Date:	Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:52:29 +0000

Message no. 3 And verily, did Wafflemiesters hastily scribble thusly...
|
|SR is, as far as I know, the only RPG with "quick play" characters that
|is still being produced.

Errr...
Star Wars and Paranoia?

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Gaming history / architypes
Date:	Mon, 16 Mar 1998 07:15:53 -0700

Message no. 4 Spike wrote:
/
/ And verily, did Wafflemiesters hastily scribble thusly...
/ |
/ |SR is, as far as I know, the only RPG with "quick play" characters that
/ |is still being produced.
/
/ Errr...
/ Star Wars and Paranoia?

Star Wars (last time I checked) has templates which require further
modification. SR's archetypes are 99.9% ready to go.

I've never played Paranoia (to paranoid I guess :)

-David
--
"I don't think of all the misery,
but of all the beauty that still remains."
- Anne Frank
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Gaming history / architypes
Date:	Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:32:40 +0100

Message no. 5 David Buehrer said on 7:15/16 Mar 98...

[games with quick-play characters]
> I've never played Paranoia (to paranoid I guess :)

Well, there are no "templates" or "archetypes" that I could see, but
character generation takes only maybe 15 minutes if you're inexperienced
with the rules, so I'd say it has "quick characters"...

Although with Paranoia, a chargen system that takes longer would be a
major disadvantage :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Rebel without a chance
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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From:	"Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject:	Re: Gaming history / architypes
Date:	Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:00:17 +0000

Message no. 6 On 16 Mar 98, David Buehrer disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
by writing:

[...]
> Star Wars (last time I checked) has templates which require further
> modification. SR's archetypes are 99.9% ready to go.

Errrr... Dividing 7 dice among listed skills is not really that
hard... OTOH, in SR, you have 20 questions, and Star Wars
templates provide you with a (though generic and modifiable)
background and history.

They don't suck, too. ;PPP

> I've never played Paranoia (to paranoid I guess :)

Refraining from participation is an offense against the Computer.
Please proceed to the nearest disintegration booth immediately,
Citizen. Have a nice day.

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+
PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
Error loading GOD.SYS (A)bort or (U)nzip BIGBANG.ZIP.

From:	Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Gaming history / architypes
Date:	Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:59:50 +1000

Message no. 7 Matb writes:
>The archetypes are so far behind SOTA that it's not funny -- but then,
>at the time SR2 was being released, Shadowtech was just coming onto the
>shelves and Cybertechnology was a gleam in some freelancer's eye. Kind
>of hard to give them the cool stuff when it hasn't been created yet. :P

Shadowtech had actually been around for a while, but FASA made the (wise)
decision not to use stuff in the archetypes that wasn't in the main book,
and they didn't want to complicate the main book with bioware as well.

>It'll be interesting to see if, in SR3, they implement bioware (and
>perhaps the toys from C-tech) as standard rules.

I'd look to see the reflex trigger as standard on wired reflexes (actually,
I'd never thought they wouldn't have an on-off switch, and have always
played with rules that almost exactly matched those for the reflex trigger).
Maybe some of the other cute tech toys, like ideas for cybereyes and so on,
but I don't think we'll see the dermal sheathing of fly-by-wire stuff. (And
I wouldn't want to... it's better off in a sourcebook).

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons robert.watkins@******.com

From:	Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Gaming history / architypes
Date:	Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:19:31 EST

Message no. 8 In a message dated 98-03-16 08:55:03 EST, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK writes:

> |SR is, as far as I know, the only RPG with "quick play" characters that
> |is still being produced.
>
> Errr...
> Star Wars and Paranoia?
>
I had forgotten about Paranoia, but again, I avoid that one too (gosh, don't
ask, don't tell :). Star Wars...did it have 'archetypes', I for some reason
don't remember being give that option when I played it. And Star Trek...oh my
god, let's -not- go there...

-K

From:	Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Gaming history / architypes
Date:	Tue, 17 Mar 1998 01:05:03 -0500

Message no. 9 At 01:52 PM 3/16/98 +0000, Spike wrote these timeless words:
>And verily, did Wafflemiesters hastily scribble thusly...
>|
>|SR is, as far as I know, the only RPG with "quick play" characters that
>|is still being produced.
>
>Errr...
>Star Wars and Paranoia?
>
ANd to point out one of the newest (and believe it or not, coolest, if you
leave out the dead angst stuff most of the WW/Vamp players in my area want
to throw into the game) RPGs, Deadlands... :]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka Chaos, aka a lot of others! :]

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From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Gaming history / architypes
Date:	Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:44:59 +0000

Message no. 10 And verily, did Gurth hastily scribble thusly...
|
|David Buehrer said on 7:15/16 Mar 98...
|
|[games with quick-play characters]
|> I've never played Paranoia (to paranoid I guess :)
|
|Well, there are no "templates" or "archetypes" that I could see,

There aren't?
Hmmmm... There were in 2nd Edition when I played it....

Must've been dropped in later eds.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Gaming history / architypes
Date:	Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:45:09 -0600

Message no. 11 On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Bull wrote:

> ANd to point out one of the newest (and believe it or not, coolest, if you
> leave out the dead angst stuff most of the WW/Vamp players in my area want
> to throw into the game) RPGs, Deadlands... :]

Definatly looks like a cool game. I just finished reading the main rule
book and the sourcebook *draws blank* the one with the Tombstone Epitaths
Guid to North America in it. Anyway the game has probaly 20+ archtypes
listed between those two books.(everything from saloon gals to prospectors
to Pinkerton Agents) They have an interesting dice/skill system too but
BOY does it make you own a lot of dice, then again most gamers i know
would have enough dice to play anyway. This is getting really OT so i
better leave it there. Ok Gridsec im putting the keyboard down......

Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
tmprice@***********.com

From:	SCROSE <scrose@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Gaming history / architypes
Date:	Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:53:41 -0600

Message no. 12 David Buehrer wrote:
>
> Spike wrote:
> /
> / And verily, did Wafflemiesters hastily scribble thusly...
> / |
> / |SR is, as far as I know, the only RPG with "quick play" characters that
> / |is still being produced.
> /
> / Errr...
> / Star Wars and Paranoia?
>
> Star Wars (last time I checked) has templates which require further
> modification. SR's archetypes are 99.9% ready to go.

This statement I have to disagree with you still need the background IMO
to RP.I won't tell people how to RP but to just take a archetype of the
rule book makes for a rather shallow character most of the time. I'm a
firm believer in the create the background first worry about the numbers
later school of thinking. If I don't know who I want the character to be
it's difficult to give them a personality.

> I've never played Paranoia (to paranoid I guess :)

wonderful game to play at Cons late at night :)

From:	Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject:	Re: Gaming history / architypes
Date:	Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:20:51 -0700

Message no. 13 At 14:53 17/03/98 -0600, you wrote:
>> Star Wars (last time I checked) has templates which require further
>> modification. SR's archetypes are 99.9% ready to go.
>
>This statement I have to disagree with you still need the background IMO
>to RP.I won't tell people how to RP but to just take a archetype of the
>rule book makes for a rather shallow character most of the time. I'm a
>firm believer in the create the background first worry about the numbers
>later school of thinking. If I don't know who I want the character to be
>it's difficult to give them a personality.

But if Bob just showed up at your house, you're just about to start RP'ing,
and Bob has never played Shadowrun before, what are you going to do?

Give him an archetype -- otherwise you'll have to spend an hour generating
a character with him, longer writing the background, even longer explaining
the mechanics. But you can toss him the detective, give him a brief
rundown of the current situation, and be off and running.

After a few sessions, if he's a half-decent roleplayer, the archetype will
start to become defined and more 'real'.

-Adam J
-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ fro@***.ab.ca
"You say you making a thousand dollars a night stripping? What does a good
looking stripper make?" -- Some guy on Springer.

From:	SCROSE <scrose@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Gaming history / architypes
Date:	Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:37:10 -0600

Message no. 14 Gurth wrote:
>
> David Buehrer said on 7:15/16 Mar 98...
>
> [games with quick-play characters]
> > I've never played Paranoia (to paranoid I guess :)
>
> Well, there are no "templates" or "archetypes" that I could see,
but
> character generation takes only maybe 15 minutes if you're inexperienced
> with the rules, so I'd say it has "quick characters"...
>
> Although with Paranoia, a chargen system that takes longer would be a
> major disadvantage :)

This I would have to agree with 110% paranoia is lots of fun at cons
(The only place I've ever played) and by the end of the nite we where
whipping out characters in ten min or less. Then again you need them
same with COC but it's not in print any more. :)

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Gaming history / architypes
Date:	Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:10:17 EST

Message no. 15 > This statement I have to disagree with you still need the background
> IMO to RP.I won't tell people how to RP but to just take a archetype
> of the rule book makes for a rather shallow character most of the
> time. I'm a firm believer in the create the background first worry
> about the numbers later school of thinking. If I don't know who I
> want the character to be it's difficult to give them a personality.

I agree with you, but most of my players actually generate numbers
first, then come up with a personality. Usually they'll then go back
and change a few numbers for the personality, but they can't come up
with one without numbers to start with. Weird. To each his own....

-=SwiftOne=-

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Gaming history / architypes
Date:	Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:46:30 +0100

Message no. 16 Brett Borger said on 17:10/17 Mar 98...

> I agree with you, but most of my players actually generate numbers
> first, then come up with a personality. Usually they'll then go back
> and change a few numbers for the personality, but they can't come up
> with one without numbers to start with. Weird. To each his own....

I do both at the same time. When I make a character I get an idea for the
kind I want to play (detective, combat mage, decker, etc.) and start
filling in stats, and often when I assign a value to something I decide on
a reason why it has that value ("Etiquette (Corporate) 4... he worked
for Mitsuhama and quit his job."), as well as the other way around ("After
quitting Mitsuhama he started working the shadows, so Etiquette (Street) 4
as well.") It works for me...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Oost west, asbest.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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From:	"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject:	Re: Gaming history / architypes
Date:	Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:38:15 -0500

Message no. 17 Spike wrote:
>And verily, did Gurth hastily scribble thusly...
>|David Buehrer said on 7:15/16 Mar 98...
>|[games with quick-play characters]
>|> I've never played Paranoia (to paranoid I guess :)
>|Well, there are no "templates" or "archetypes" that I could see,
>
>There aren't?
>Hmmmm... There were in 2nd Edition when I played it....
>
>Must've been dropped in later eds.

I don't think so - I've got 5th ed (which is the only release after
2nd ed, at least as of a couple of years ago). Every adventure I can
remember (and there's one in the book) includes pre-built characters.
"Archetype" isn't really that appropriate, since there's such a
variety (you can be big army commie mutant traitor scum, or small
techie commie mutant traitor scum - your choice!)... :-)

James Ojaste

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