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From:	Grnwzrd <Grnwzrd@***.COM>
Subject:	Gargoyles Yay or Nay?
Date:	Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:24:04 EST

Message no. 1 Well first of all I need to know what all of you think about Gargoyles as
characters. Then I need to know what special abilities they should have
besides flying. Should they be able to cast spells or should they just know
how to cast minor spells? How athletic should they be(I think that they are
so deathly affraid of guns they dare not fire one unless one has willed
himself to be trained)? They regenerate when they are in stone form during
the day but how much do they regenerate? Cyberware is a big question, should
they be hurt when they have external cyberware? Or what? Express you
opinions!

I am all for having a Gargoyles as a characters. This is what I think their
racial maximums should be.
Body:8(10 when in stone form)
Quickness:7
Strength:8
Charisma:4(ugly when not in stone)
Intelligence:4(they only know of the dark side of the world)
Willpower:6(They are magical creatures...I mean characters)
Essence:6
Magic:6

Bonuses:
They have pointed fingers which when used is str+3
They also have pointed toes which when used is str+3

Well any way this is what I have so far.

You friend the GREENWIZARD

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Gargoyles Yay or Nay?
Date:	Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:57:07 -0500

Message no. 2 I'm guessing that you are referring to the Gargoyles of the (used to be
excellent) cartoon? As in Goliath and Brooklyn and so on?

Well, I think that cyberware would be a huge no-no. The PC shapeshifters
can't have it because of their regeneration, so I don't see why Gargoyles
would be allowed it either. I'm not terribly keen on bioware either, but
cultured bioware (which would probably, because they aren't metahuman, be
even more expensive and difficult to produce; it would effectively be
one-PC specialized bioware) is conceivable.

If these indeed are the Gargoyles of the cartoon, they probably have all
sorts of other problems too; metahumans fear them and probably confuse them
with the gargoyle monsters (I think are found in one of the paranormal
animals books). This would make legwork and keeping and getting Contacts
very difficult. Not to mention the fact that the Gargoyles won't ever be
able to walk into a club and meet with a Mr. Johnson or something.

These particular Gargoyles would probably regenerate everything while in
stone form. That's what happens in the cartoon anyway.

As for the Athletics...you might say that Gargoyles have natural Enhanced
Articulation, making them more graceful and athletic than the normal
metahuman.

And for magic...I don't recall any Gargoyles that could actually cast
spells. They were more physical adepts if anything. And their
understanding of magic was terribly limited it seemed.

There's nothing really stopping you from making these sorts of characters,
but I would strongly suggest making these PCs pariahs from society, which
will make running them very difficult I would think.

Erik J.

From:	Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Gargoyles Yay or Nay?
Date:	Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:59:40 +1000

Message no. 3 Grnwzrd writes:
[stuff about Gargoyoles as PCs snipped]

Greenie, Gargoyoles are a paranormal creature in SR. You'll find stats for
them in one of the Paranomal Animals books (Paranormal Animals of North
America, I think). IIRC, they're listed as a possibly sentient species,
which would imply that they wouldn't be any good as PCs.

Of course, if you want to use your own Gargoyle type creature as a PC, feel
free.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons robert.watkins@******.com

From:	Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject:	Re: Gargoyles Yay or Nay?
Date:	Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:04:54 -0700

Message no. 4 At 19:24 16/03/98 EST, you wrote:

<Snipped Gargoyle stuff>

A full writeup of Gargoyles as PC's will be in The Shadowrun Supplemental
'97 edition, which should hopefully be out late this month, early next month..

</spam>

-Adam J
-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ fro@***.ab.ca
"Now I'm going to come on stage, and nobody is going to fight, because I wear
rented suits and can't be hurt." -- Jerry Springer.

From:	Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: Gargoyles Yay or Nay?
Date:	Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:23:45 -0800

Message no. 5 Grnwzrd wrote:

> Well first of all I need to know what all of you think about Gargoyles > as
characters.

<plug>

Stop by Bull's website:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604
where he has some rules for alternate metatypes (Ghouls, Vampires,
Gargoyles, Sasquatches, Picies, Killer Tomatoes....)

NOTICE: I am not an employee or otherwise affiliated with Bull
Enterprises Ltd., The Ratkovich Corporation, or Ork Deckers Local No.
511. I just plug his site cos I like it.

-Matt

------------------------------------
Beware the man who casts two shadows.

GridSec: SRCard / Wolf in Shepherd's Clothing
Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm

From:	Wyrmy <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Gargoyles Yay or Nay?
Date:	Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:44:59 -0600

Message no. 6 Erik Jameson wrote:
>
> I'm guessing that you are referring to the Gargoyles of the (used to be
> excellent) cartoon? As in Goliath and Brooklyn and so on?
>
> Well, I think that cyberware would be a huge no-no. The PC shapeshifters
> can't have it because of their regeneration, so I don't see why Gargoyles
> would be allowed it either. I'm not terribly keen on bioware either, but
> cultured bioware (which would probably, because they aren't metahuman, be
> even more expensive and difficult to produce; it would effectively be
> one-PC specialized bioware) is conceivable.
>
> If these indeed are the Gargoyles of the cartoon, they probably have all
> sorts of other problems too; metahumans fear them and probably confuse them
> with the gargoyle monsters (I think are found in one of the paranormal
> animals books). This would make legwork and keeping and getting Contacts
> very difficult. Not to mention the fact that the Gargoyles won't ever be
> able to walk into a club and meet with a Mr. Johnson or something.
>
> These particular Gargoyles would probably regenerate everything while in
> stone form. That's what happens in the cartoon anyway.
>
> As for the Athletics...you might say that Gargoyles have natural Enhanced
> Articulation, making them more graceful and athletic than the normal
> metahuman.
>
> And for magic...I don't recall any Gargoyles that could actually cast
> spells.
What about that episode where Demona Uses that book(reusable
fetish,maybe a focus?) to cast that spell that made every human watching
and listening(she was on tv after-all) freeze in place.I think that
counts as a ritual sorcery.
--
If you are a dreamer come in,
If you are a dreeamer, a wisher,
A liar, a magic jelly bean buyer,
Come In!
-What should be the motto of all internet users.

From:	Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Gargoyles Yay or Nay?
Date:	Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:11:39 -0600

Message no. 7 > I'm guessing that you are referring to the Gargoyles of the (used to be
> excellent) cartoon? As in Goliath and Brooklyn and so on?
I'll assume he was while commenting on yours.

> Well, I think that cyberware would be a huge no-no. The PC shapeshifters
> can't have it because of their regeneration, so I don't see why Gargoyles
> would be allowed it either. I'm not terribly keen on bioware either, but
> cultured bioware (which would probably, because they aren't metahuman, be
> even more expensive and difficult to produce; it would effectively be
> one-PC specialized bioware) is conceivable.
I'd personally say about 100 times the normal cost, though the body index
would be as per normal custom bioware.

> If these indeed are the Gargoyles of the cartoon, they probably have all
> sorts of other problems too;
Not to mention not being able to move during the day...

> And for magic...I don't recall any Gargoyles that could actually cast
> spells. They were more physical adepts if anything. And their
> understanding of magic was terribly limited it seemed.
Desdemona <sp> was a spell caster on par with the Magus; they both had
power,
but required the Grimorum Arcanorum to cast spells.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
ICQ 8108186 , AIM handle Nexx3
************
A beautiful woman is the hell of the soul, the purgatory of the purse, and the
paradise of the eye.........
***********
Only after the last tree has been cut down, Only after the last river has been
poisoned, Only after the last fish has been caught, Only then will you find
that money cannot be eaten.
- Cree Indian Prophecy
***********
Am Moireach Mor!

From:	Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Gargoyles Yay or Nay?
Date:	Tue, 17 Mar 1998 01:33:32 -0500

Message no. 8 I did up the Gargoyles from Disney's Gargoyles Cartoon as PC's... I think
they are on my web page, but if not (It's under construction and I'm not
sure what is and isn;t up) I can send them over to you...

Also, I've been playing with the idea of creating a "real" gragoyle race
and linking them a bit to the Obsidimen from ED :]

>You friend the GREENWIZARD
>
Hey Tinner... Looks like you have a bit of compitition :] (Steven Tinner
uses Bluewizard as his e-mail addy :))

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka Chaos, aka a lot of others! :]

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UIN: 6460938

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From:	Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Gargoyles Yay or Nay?
Date:	Tue, 17 Mar 1998 01:33:34 -0500

Message no. 9 At 08:23 PM 3/16/98 -0800, Matb wrote these timeless words:
>Grnwzrd wrote:
>
>> Well first of all I need to know what all of you think about Gargoyles >
as characters.
>
><plug>
>
>Stop by Bull's website:
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604
>where he has some rules for alternate metatypes (Ghouls, Vampires,
>Gargoyles, Sasquatches, Picies, Killer Tomatoes....)
>
>NOTICE: I am not an employee or otherwise affiliated with Bull
>Enterprises Ltd., The Ratkovich Corporation, or Ork Deckers Local No.
>511. I just plug his site cos I like it.
>
Hehe... Thanks Matt! :]

BTW: That's Bulldrek Enterprises Ltd. :]

<orky grin>

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka Chaos, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Cuddly Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome and Archive
Answer Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
---- in semi-production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/
UIN: 6460938

"Bill gates is just a monocle and a cat away from being a James Bond villian."
-- Dennis Miller on HBO

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Gargoyles Yay or Nay?
Date:	Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:36:31 +0100

Message no. 10 Robert Watkins said on 10:59/17 Mar 98...

> Greenie, Gargoyoles are a paranormal creature in SR. You'll find stats for
> them in one of the Paranomal Animals books (Paranormal Animals of North
> America, I think).

Both Paranormal Animal books, to be precise. The "normal" gargoyle is in
PA of North America, the European gargoyle is in PA of Europe (surprise!).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Rebel without a chance
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Gargoyles Yay or Nay?
Date:	Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:53:50 +0000

Message no. 11 And verily, did Grnwzrd hastily scribble thusly...
|
|Well first of all I need to know what all of you think about Gargoyles as
|characters. Then I need to know what special abilities they should have
|besides flying. Should they be able to cast spells or should they just know
|how to cast minor spells? How athletic should they be(I think that they are
|so deathly affraid of guns they dare not fire one unless one has willed
|himself to be trained)? They regenerate when they are in stone form during
|the day but how much do they regenerate? Cyberware is a big question, should
|they be hurt when they have external cyberware? Or what? Express you
|opinions!

Bull posted a lot on this a few months back (When Gargoyles the cartoon was
on). I saved it, and I'll repost it if you want....

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Gargoyles Yay or Nay?
Date:	Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:58:32 +0000

Message no. 12 And verily, did Erik Jameson hastily scribble thusly...
|
|I'm guessing that you are referring to the Gargoyles of the (used to be
|excellent) cartoon? As in Goliath and Brooklyn and so on?

Used to be as in "It's not on anymore", or used to be, as in "It's turned
incredibly crap"?

I hope it's not the first, and can't believe it's the second....

|Well, I think that cyberware would be a huge no-no.

With one exception.... Cybermancy....
(Remember Coldstone)

|These particular Gargoyles would probably regenerate everything while in
|stone form. That's what happens in the cartoon anyway.

True.

|As for the Athletics...you might say that Gargoyles have natural Enhanced
|Articulation, making them more graceful and athletic than the normal
|metahuman.
|
|And for magic...I don't recall any Gargoyles that could actually cast
|spells. They were more physical adepts if anything. And their
|understanding of magic was terribly limited it seemed.

Oh? What about Demona? If she wasn't magically capable, I don't know who
was....
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Gargoyles Yay or Nay?
Date:	Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:59:17 +0000

Message no. 13 And verily, did Adam J hastily scribble thusly...
|
|At 19:24 16/03/98 EST, you wrote:
|
|<Snipped Gargoyle stuff>
|
|A full writeup of Gargoyles as PC's will be in The Shadowrun Supplemental
|'97 edition, which should hopefully be out late this month, early next month..
|
|</spam>

Use BULLs stuff... It was excellent...
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Gargoyles Yay or Nay?
Date:	Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:01:51 +0000

Message no. 14 And verily, did Wyrmy hastily scribble thusly...
|What about that episode where Demona Uses that book(reusable
|fetish,maybe a focus?) to cast that spell that made every human watching
|and listening(she was on tv after-all) freeze in place.I think that
|counts as a ritual sorcery.

And the one where she cast the mind control spell on Goliath...
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject:	Re: Gargoyles Yay or Nay?
Date:	Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:15:58 -0700

Message no. 15 At 11:59 17/03/98 +0000, you wrote:

>|A full writeup of Gargoyles as PC's will be in The Shadowrun Supplemental
>|'97 edition, which should hopefully be out late this month, early next
month..
>|
>|</spam>
>
>Use BULLs stuff... It was excellent...

I'm going to be -- it's all sitting on my hard drive, I just have to get my
act together and email all the original authors, and then compile the files.

Turns out Bull wrote rather a lot of the first TSS issues :)

-Adam J
-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ fro@***.ab.ca
"Now I'm going to come on stage, and nobody is going to fight, because I wear
rented suits and can't be hurt." -- Jerry Springer.

From:	Wyrmy <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Gargoyles Yay or Nay?
Date:	Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:20:22 -0600

Message no. 16 Bull wrote:
>
> I did up the Gargoyles from Disney's Gargoyles Cartoon as PC's... I think
> they are on my web page, but if not (It's under construction and I'm not
> sure what is and isn;t up) I can send them over to you...
>
> Also, I've been playing with the idea of creating a "real" gragoyle race
> and linking them a bit to the Obsidimen from ED :]
>
> >You friend the GREENWIZARD
> >
> Hey Tinner... Looks like you have a bit of compitition :] (Steven Tinner
> uses Bluewizard as his e-mail addy :))
And at school I am called WhiteWizard.When I get my new email
accout,look for a Whitewizard.That'll probably be me.
--
If you are a dreamer come in,
If you are a dreeamer, a wisher,
A liar, a magic jelly bean buyer,
Come In!
-What should be the motto of all internet users.

From:	Wyrmy <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Gargoyles Yay or Nay?
Date:	Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:31:08 -0600

Message no. 17 > And the one where she cast the mind control spell on Goliath...
Yeah! I forgot that one.
--
If you are a dreamer come in,
If you are a dreeamer, a wisher,
A liar, a magic jelly bean buyer,
Come In!
-What should be the motto of all internet users.

From:	rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: Gargoyles Yay or Nay?
Date:	Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:30:14 -0500

Message no. 18 >I did up the Gargoyles from Disney's Gargoyles Cartoon as PC's... I
think
>they are on my web page, but if not (It's under construction and I'm
not
>sure what is and isn;t up) I can send them over to you...
>
>Also, I've been playing with the idea of creating a "real" gragoyle
race
>and linking them a bit to the Obsidimen from ED :]

Hey, Bull, did you ever do anything with this? I checked out your web
page, but nothing there. I'd like a copy of the Disney Gargoyles, and
would be very interested in the merge with Obsidimen.

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...
Proud owner of #972

From:	Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Gargoyles Yay or Nay?
Date:	Thu, 3 Sep 1998 16:25:29 -0400

Message no. 19 At 11:30 AM 8/26/98 -0500, rabiola wrote these timeless words:

>Hey, Bull, did you ever do anything with this? I checked out your web
>page, but nothing there. I'd like a copy of the Disney Gargoyles, and
>would be very interested in the merge with Obsidimen.
>
Just how old was this mail you responded to? :]

Anyways, I'm going to be sending the Disney stuff to the list shortly...

The Obsidiamen/Paranormal Gargoyle connection is something I thought about,
and have as a concept, but never quite expanded on...

Lots of ideas, and not enough time :]

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
chaos@*****.com ===== bull22@***********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604

=======================================================
= =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? =
= =
=======================================================

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